Why Your Mix Sounds Bad at High Volume
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- Опубліковано 12 лют 2023
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In this video producer, mix and mastering engineer David Gnozzi explains why your mixes sound bad at high volume, in the car, phones, headphones etc..
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Hi David, I think there are more reasons why a mix can sound bad when played loud.
Maybe you didn't even think of them because for you these things are a given but they're not for us common mortals!
It can be that the mix sessions have been too long and without breaks, and excessive high end has been progressively added as the hours passed, which goes unnoticed in the moment but comes out the next day, especially if the song is played loud.
And it could also be that the mix has been done at a low level where we hear less top and bottom end, and again this has caused the mix to be mid scooped, which sounds bad when you play it loud later on.
Thanks David, always wondered why this happened in some mixes, but didn't know exactly why.I know its probably basic stuff , thank you very much for clearing that.
Thanks for help us in sharing your knowledge and elevate the conversation between pros and newbees
i seriously just noticed this on my own. wish this one had shown up in my feed months ago.
but it takes a lot of skill to get all the information you want in the upper mids without it becoming too much.
I'm getting there. thanks for the wisdom.
Thank you very much brother. The mid range was truly helpful. 👏👏👏👏👏
Here's the video I've been looking for, for ages🔥🤦
Thy Sir. Real helping hand.
Great question. In my experience I've noticed tracks that are pushed too hard into the final limiter tend to fall apart when the volume goes up. Particularly digital over limiting
“Cut your low-end 45db; no sh!t.”😂😂
Very informative Thank you
Great points here.
Thanks for this
I find some kinds of distortion are easier to "get wrong". Clipping is hot right now but when the sharp and inharmonic digital artifacts intrinsic to clipping are played loudly, they can reaalllly grate the ears.
This goes back to one of the first lessons I learned in Audio Engineering School @ SAE NYC, which is Equal Loudness Contours. The reason why all sound systems crap out at a certain level is because most songs are mixed with a relatively even frequency response, and when listened to at louder than studio reference level (ear damaging levels), the frequencies humans are most sensitive to (upper mid frequencies) will begin to sound harsh. This happens even if the sound system produces no audible distortion at these loud levels.
The second possibility which adds to this perceived harshness past a certain SPL is that the sound system simply can't handle the output level, and therefore the harshness is even worse due to the added distortion.
The third possibility is that your mix is not done at studio reference level. If you mix at a lower reference level than studio reference level then you risk your mix sounding imbalanced and harsh when listened to at louder levels. Keep in mind studio reference level (83-87 dB SPL average peak) is right below the threshold of sound pressure that starts to become ear damaging.
@mary allen it is very good advice! Unfortunately that goal you speak of isn't possible unless software like Sonarworks Sound ID are implemented in the playback systems.
The best we can do is engineers is to satisfy the bell curve. Because some speakers are just going to be too troubly or too bassy... There is nothing we can physically do about that and if we please the mix for those extremes then the vast majority of people won't be happy with the mix.
@@maryallen7950 In nightclubs and PA systems that require a lot of SPL, the trick to get around harshness is simply to pump up the bass frequencies below 100 Hz. You will get more SPL without the harshness from Equal Loudness Contour. Ultimately this leads to a more pleasant sounding system even though it is technically no longer balanced at studio reference level. I have found that bumping up the bass frequencies to avoid harshness past studio reference level also requires a slight bump in the treble frequencies to have a well balanced sound system at these louder than studio reference level volumes. So the louder you go past studio reference level in SPL the more smiley face EQ is required to balance out the perceived FR.
@@AR7271 Equal Loudness Contour is perhaps the most important aspect of sound that people including audio professionals overlook. It applies to many situations.
My advice to anyone who cares about their hearing and wants to avoid any damage is to be very mindful of the SPL and FR of the material you are listening to. It is difficult to judge the SPL in many situations especially portable headphone systems. So you can easily listen at ear damaging levels without realizing it. One way to get around this is to primarily listen to everything at studio reference level which can be more easily measured in a studio speaker system. This way you get familiar with just how loud studio reference level is and use it as the maximum level you listen to in longer listening sessions.
If you really enjoy blasting your ears with 90dB or more in SPL then adjust the FR as I noted above (if needed). That way the perceived FR is more balanced and the SPL is less damaging.
People always overlook such a critical concept of ELCs.They usually blame the speakers,room, but forget to monitor at proper level for their room size, and the worst part is that on YT few ME touch the subject on their mixing tutorials. It’s the room, the speakers and you. ( unless mixing/mastering in headphones ofc)
You hit the nail on the head! I was having a bad day but this made it so much better, thank you Dave! It does seem to be in the high mids and really high frequencies, I don’t know why but I tend to make everything brighter than my references. I was just wondering if it had anything to do with too much distortion and probably does, and yes the mid high frequencies are piercing when I turn up the volume so I probably just have to much information there with all the tracks combined
No problem. Try to always be aware that your brian thinks "brighter=better" at first, so it's very easy to fool yourself with high content
You're probably on my trajectory. When I first started, my mixes were too dark. Then they became way too bright. Now they're getting darker again, but with more care put into it. Having some elements dark is okay, but you don't want muddiness. And you want other elements to have a sheen or shimmer.
I used to just put a Pultec or an SSL on my mix bus and just crank somewhere between 8-12k. This was AFTER I'd already put an exciter or Pultec on my vocals. I'm sure it was unlistenable in retrospect. I still haven't entirely curbed the tendency, but I can tell my tastes are shifting.
@@mixbustv I think one of my problems too is I hate the cardboard frequencies too, and I need to stop that. If I hear any boxiness in anything I just cut it out, and when I listen to my references I can hear that in there but it’s like my brain is like, no this is how it should sound. And usually the less I do to those mids the better my mixes sound even with all that mud.
@@rome8180 yeah I really need to find a way to love these low mids again. It’s so hard to find out how much you can get away with, but I think for now I should just leave them alone. Or minimize the cutting of them.
Thanks for the clarification on the mid/mid high issue. I've had the same question for a long time. Can I ask you to explain a bit more about what you mentioned right after the intro of the video. Meaning the fact that so many mixes start sounding harsh in the low-end region, even professional officially released songs on established record labels, even in professional acousticly treated rooms.
For example, some of them start to sound a bit to punchy. Is it the limit of studio monitors or some error and bias in the frequency response of the room ?
Exactly my problem always))
Hi David, surely you know there are plugins (eg. Fletchy-Muncher by Noisebud) that can simulate listening at very high volume levels (without destroying your ears) by taking into account the Fletcher-Munson curves. What's your take on these plugins? Can they be trusted? Are there any traps to avoid while using them? Thanks for all the knowledge you pour upon us!
In my case, some "professional mixed" songs from spotify distort too when i turn up the volume, I was really upset when I heard my mix on phone and it sounded with a lot of distortion. It was both my mix and the phone speakers because the tonal balance was a little bit off, so there was really too much distortion, but usually if I listen to some acoustic instruments, at high volume for example, even for professionally mixed songs the harshness is there
Don’t know what I’m doing right, but my mixes sound so much better cranked 🔈
True it's sounds better when blasting😂
Hello David!
Thank you very much for your videos! They have helped me a lot.
I'm mixing a rock EP right now and I'm very happy with all the tracks.
I worked without presets, sometimes the kick is a bit more present, sometimes it's the bass. Sometimes the guitar mids sound more focused, sometimes the mids are lower.
All the tracks are aligned in terms of frequency and LUFS (at the loudest parts), and yet they all sound different.
Which is more important to you, the sound of the album or the sound of the individual track?
Regards
Jörn
Album, where the main single(s) can be a bit different
@@mixbustv Thank you!
David,
you were on a roll with the " Best _____ Of 2022" series.
You should do a "Best De-Noiser Plugins of 2022".
....a "Best RMS Gain Stager Plugins of 2022"....
and a "Real L.A. Housewives of UA-cam" and show
how you and Bella fight off cam. ROTFLMAO.
It seems like the importance of low end differs with genre. For example, for a rock mix I'd rather have it be too thin than too bassy. And the level where it's "too bassy" happens much sooner than it would in a hip hop mix. I know a lot of rock mixers mix on NS-10s and spend the vast majority of their time on the midrange rather than the low end. Many don't even have a sub. They just check their low end briefly in headphones or on a different system.
Also, I enjoy music from early eras where the low end wasn't nearly as pronounced. Their bass amps couldn't produce it in the studio, and the playback systems couldn't reproduce it once the record was cut. In fact, I believe mastering for vinyl took this into account. All music having a bunch of sub content is a very modern phenomenon. Even the amount of 60-100 hz is more modern, though you can probably find that starting in the 80s, I would guess.
True, the music of the 70s and 80s generally has less emphasis on the bass frequencies than today's music and when the ear adapts to today's music, we feel the bass of the older music to be thin but all is a question of perception because if you only listen to older music for minutes and hours, your ears adapt and the bass sounds perfectly fine and balanced. Like when you are in the car and put the EQ balance in rock mode, with the bass fader very high, after some time listening to music in that mode, when you switch back to neutral mode with all faders in the center, it sounds SO bad and weak and thin, however if you keep listening in that neutral mode for many minutes, your ears adapt to it and it sounds perfect after some time ! And then you switch back to rock mode and the bass feels way too strong but after a few songs in rock mode the ears adapt and it sounds like normal and not bass-boosted. Perception is an interesting phenomenon. All is relative.
You should talk about the Zay 808 and how it has made the best sounding bass in trap like the box by roddy rich
Thank you for the video...is there any value in using analysers like ozone's tonal balance as a secondary help to your ears to balancing a mix or would you recommend not using them at all?
Absolutely, tonal balance is a great plugin
CAN U DO A VIDEO FOR US ABOUT HOW TO CONTROL OR WRK ON OUR MID RANGE
I sometimes wonder if a plug-in could be developed that can be inserted last in a channels chain to provide a general target frequency / dynamic level for specific instruments. But for the purpose of helping make automation judgments. To keep things consistent.
Like a lane keep assist for a car to keep your individual elements within their own “lane”
Then when other elements are added you can get a general view of those individual elements and see what automation could be done to re-balance. Sort of like tonal balance control but not for full mixes.
You know why such thing will never see the light (nor would actually be useful)? Because the engineer decides what and where and how those "lanes" as you say are. And that's what makes this mix better or worse then the other based on who mixed it.
@@mixbustv That’s a fair and true point. It would sterilise the creative aspect. Maybe useful as a basic learning tool? But nothing beyond that. Cheers for replying dude, much love ❤️
🙏🙌
Maybe there is also a problem with the ISPs. When there is a true peak above 0, after the the convertion to mp3 for example, good converters will forgive it and cheaper one not. So try to check the TP after the convertion.
ISP is BS ua-cam.com/video/SskN8cRNzkI/v-deo.html
@@mixbustv Yeah, best explanation so far.
I thought about trying Soothe 2 or Reso on my digital mixes but real analog gear helped. Initially I paid someone to do a master with tape. It was better. But then I tried Mix:analog last night and ran a song through their Fairchild 670 clone. WOW
Added a lot AND got rid of the harshness
Yet upon further reflection, that guy's master sounds best. The combination of tape with his board and analog gear are fab and the cost, quite reasonable.
what you mean by tape? how he utilizes tape exactly?
Hi, I am interested in the weekly consultation subscription.
Does this mean that once a week, I can get a mix consultation?
Yes via email.
Hi David,
In the Acustica audio's Tiger review you don't engage the oversampling. What are the downsides of oversampling and in which cases we better not oversample our audio source ?
thanks for your great contents
ua-cam.com/video/AtCnLW0i8x8/v-deo.html
@@mixbustv thanks a lot ! I’ve missed that one
David, I think I a noticing that you do not really use outboard effects processors? Do you mostly or only use plugins for delay reverb, chorus etc...?
Yes, one thing plugins are amazing at!
Thanks for the video man! My signal actually peaks 2-3db higher when I use a hi-pass filter on the low end. Like you say in the video, you see many people recommend cutting low end to free up headroom, but wouldn’t this trigger their compressors and limiters more? Sounds like it could be better to not cut the low end like you say and also have more headroom. I’m confused on how it actually creates headroom.
The increase in level you see is due to the filter (eq), any eq move will always raise the level a bit, no matter where, highs, mids lows.. it's not related to this. Harmonic content is more dense in the low end, and low end is the range that distorts more and first, removing it will give more wiggle room to "push" the track into limiting which is NOT how you get a loud master. Not only at least
@@mixbustv Okay that makes way more sense. Appreciate you for explaining that.
Is it better to mix vocals after bouncing your beat or while you are busy mixing your beat/song, I.O.W mix and master beat and vocals in one project?
Mixing vocals on a "mixed" or "mastered" beat is a travesty.
ua-cam.com/video/P5Yb5318SOE/v-deo.html
Interesting
Funny this is exactly what happened, and I open UA-cam and I see this video lol
Hi david, we hear you talk a lot about the fact that "you need big speakers to be able to hear the low end correctly". So what is the minimum speaker size (a least the size of the boomer) required to be able to make a good mix with fully crontroled low end ?
And second little question: why have 3 sets of speaker with differents speaker size like you have ?
Thanks a lot for all your advices !
The size of the boomer is not relevant to ear the low end, big speakers move more air so you have more air pressure and more volume, that's why you have big speaker at concert. To ear the low end in speakers usually you use bass reflex which is a résonnant cavity in your speakers. That's why some speakers have hole in it and for the resonance to be low you need volume in the cavity that's why you need big speakers. You need to look at the frequency response of your speaker to know how low it goes then add a sub, or you can buy headphones that are very flat and go low like some senheiser to check your low end by comparing to a reference mix
8 inches
You need minimum 10” woofer or sub. 8’’ not enough.Been there done that.
Hi, with the help of your videos I got to a point where my mixes sound loud without much distortion which is great. The only problem I have noticed is that my mixes don't sound as clear as more professional ones I hear (Each element is easier to identify and it doesn't like a big clump of sound). Would you know how I could fix this issue? Thanks
Well you said it, your mixes don't sound as clear etc.. it's your mixing and mixing is thousands little things. Many of those things are the ones people say "oh that doesn't matter". You are probably at a level advanced enough that you need personal consultations or lessons
@@mixbustv Thanks!
I have the exact opposite problem, my mix sounds bad quiet but great loud lmao
That's probably because you either mix at loud levels (everything is cool when is loud, but you can't actually tell much and your ears will be fried in 10min) or you mix in headphones
Damn, made a song and it turned out pretty okay. But when I turn up the volume on my headphones my vocals becomes really shrill and babylike 😅 I was thinking Im going insane listening to my track and sometimes my vocals would dramatically change its tone. It was only today that I noticed on medium volume it sounds fine and at higher volume all the deepness in the tone of the vocals just vanish. Guess Ive got few sleepless nights ahead of me figuring out whatever it is Im doing wrong
I thing a lot of times is the problem that you treat your mix like it's the final stage not having in your mind that after mix comes the big guns mastering stage (especially when creating EDM) where every mistake and level that was good "in the mix" will blow up in your face, haha. You have to have all the stages of the music process in your head while your mixing, for example: this level of high frequency on guitar here is just right, yes, here is the sweetspot ... No, wrong, it's just right now, but it will be too much in the mastering stage ... That's why is good to blast the limiter over your mix from time to time (while you're mixing), to see what will "explode" later and make your mastering a living nightmare. :)
Big guns? Blast a limiter? Oh lol we talked about this a little bit, juuuust a little bit:
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ua-cam.com/video/iJs_U4UMsvQ/v-deo.htmlsi=B1WJ7jCNK_Kd36Nh
ua-cam.com/video/ZSXZqnAGApA/v-deo.htmlsi=Nv9rdqBamAKH1IPw
When I use my HG-2 hardware it shifts the LR/MS balance a lot. Do I have to get it calibrated? Fixing it by with their correction knob is not something I trust myself to do.
Do you have the version with the front knob? If so, that's why it's there. Of it's bad though you might have a bad tube
@@mixbustv yes its the latest one. Hmm okay ty.
In the box production sounds good if you know how to set your daw properly and you know Deeply sound design startegies digital dbfs digital gainstaiging and if people stop the analog feticism and start producing and mixing using the tools and knowledge that comes along digital audio era witouth importing analog strategies and obsolete tools in the digital realm also implementing armonic distortion saturation It's not just possible also in the digital but it's mandatory
Good is the right word. Great is what we want. Obsolete is also funny because if you try to open a session from 5 years ago probably half the plugins won't work or be there or incompatible with your new os. Analog is, have been and always be the same, and it'll always sound better. It will also always be there when you open session from 5, 10, 20 years ago. Production is also not mixing, nor mastering. 👍 good talk
@@mixbustv good it's anyway the opposite of bad wich is the adjective you used there are bad good and great in the box production anyway obsolete tools was inappropriate sorry I meant obsolete startegies mutuated from the analog era like emulating analog routing and bussing or parallel compression or over processing just for the sake of doing it because that was the analog school ths teach us doing it why you should struggling eqing everything when u can digitally create a sound already with the right tonal balance and armonic content or find the best compression plugin to try fix stuff you will never fix or to afford a groove u can afford using different and more consonant and powerful ways for the digital world, u can shape your transients or using fine tuning and delaying as never before....
@@dmstudio.sicksoundz it is not about better/worse or replacing one with the other in digital vs analogue, every tool in sound has its use. The same with techniques from the past, a lot of smart people in audio before you were creating strategies and techniques that they found to be be working from experience of many years and countless projects, so inventing everything from scratch is not very efficient way to do it I think. If you still see many producers applying the old analogue era knowledge and using analogue gear, it's not because they are dumb, it's because it allows them to achieve great results consistently.
@@vitaliistep u missed the point I'm not saying that!!! I'm just saying when u deal with a fully digital sistem not analogue or ibrid but producing ITB countless dumb advices online still trying to convince people to apply useless and harmful technics mutuated from the analog domain like the -18 madness about gainstaiging or eqing and compressing the hell out stop thinking analog in the digital domain and honestly I saw the majority of professional music producer with big studios and expensive outboards talking about music production to an audience that pretty much consist of music passionate and music lovers dealing with a daw and headphones operating in the box why the fxxx I should use compressor to tame or controll dynamic range and transient when I can use efficient clipping algorithm that allow to operate on dynamic range and transient witouth affecting the adsr envelopes so the time and the groove of the sound just for a pure analogue feticism why I should care of a sistem operating level or headroom when I can have potentially infinite headroom and I can continue forever...
@@dmstudio.sicksoundz you still don't understand many things. It's good that you are asking questions, so you will find the answers over time.
This is one of the most undercover questions ever which almost nobody got in mind I guess: I noticed that on my monitors I have in every mix a resonance at around 127HZ. I assume this is the resonance frequency of my room (The room is standard size around 4 by 4 meters)? I noticed that my fav mix/masters which have low end optimized for big subwoofers (frequencies below 55HZ) normally do not have this resonance. So the engineer must have this cutted out around 127hz. This frequency in basses sound painful to me.. Now I heard from a top artist from germany a mix and there was this resonance around 127hz (seemed they pushed this range!). What is it about, do engineers cut that range out on purpose in order to avoid this uncomfortable sounding resonance (in my opinion)? Why is that resonance around 127hz and how to handle that? I researched and found others who are also f-ed up by this resonance around 127hz.. So I always cut it out in order to make my low end sounding smooth and not sounding like a hammer or knock. Take care bro!
If your room as a bump in that area (I assure you in that small of a space, that's not the only one you have, just the most noticeable), you can't base your decisions based on that room. Some track don't have that because probably don't hit that note (B2) that often or that hard. Especially if you say you notice on many songs. It depends on the arrangement (and maybe partially the mix but it's way too generic the way you describe it), your room just has a bump in that area.
Now because 127 is not that low, you can easily compensate for that with a good pair of headphones which will be a lot less expensive than treating a room that small and making it sound good (which wouldn't happen anyway) if you go into the 1K range and it's gonna be that simple. If you don't hear it in headphones, it's your room.
Dave, when i produce music, it sounds fine in headphones and earphones,but when i play it in phone or any other system,,it sounds like the volume is jumping up and back,,i don't know why?????
Don't mix in headphones
Why do the videos from this channel always come up when I type in" Robben Ford"? It's almost everyday.
I mixed some of his live performances a long time ago
First 🖤
You saved the world. Gonna buy you a beer.
💯🎯💯🎯💯🎯💯🎯💯🎯
👍
Yeah some of my mix sound better when cranked some just fall apart
Will you support Turkey ?
What are you doing?
@@mixbustv packed and send everything. Money food clothes anything. I am a subscriber but i wont watch your videos. Only news. Please at least mention.
I would like this video, but it's currently at 666 likes.
An un-automated track sounds flat and flatulent