Point to Point Pineapple Mesh Continued, Hak5 1516.1
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Hak5 -- Cyber Security Education, Inspiration, News & Community since 2005:
____________________________________________
Point to Point Pineapple mesh continued. Decibels to Watts, antenna polarization, "cable loss" and why HAMS get all the good stuff. All that and more, this time on Hak5.
Hak5 1516.1: • Point to Point Pineapp...
Hak5 1516.2: • Syncing with GoodSync,...
~-~~-~~~-~~-~
Please watch: "Bash Bunny Primer - Hak5 2225"
• Bash Bunny Primer - Ha...
~-~~-~~~-~~-~
____________________________________________
Founded in 2005, Hak5's mission is to advance the InfoSec industry. We do this through our award winning educational podcasts, leading pentest gear, and inclusive community - where all hackers belong.
For those who are interested:
dBm means dB power gain with reference to 1mW.
A simple way to look at this is every time you double the power it goes up by 3db. So, referenced to 1mw - let's start doubling.
1mW to 2mW = 3dB
2mW to 4mW = 6dB
4mW to 8mW = 9dB
and so on.
To do it by formulae we get:
10 log P/1mW = 10 log P/0.001
(where the log is log to base 10 and P represents the power).
Let's take the 48dB = 63W calculation from the video.
From the formula above this implies:
48dB = 10 log 63/0.001
If we didn't know the power but were given the dBm then we'd have to do some antilogs to work it out.
48dB = 10 log P/1mW
Divide each side by 10 and we get:
4.8 = log P/1mW
To get rid of the log on the RHS we take antilogs of both sides.
Antilog 4.8 = Antilog (log P/1mW)
The Antilog cancels with the log on the RHS to give
Antilog 4.8 = P/1mw
Antilog 4.8 = P/0.001
Now multiply each side by 0.001 to give
0.001 Antilog 4.8 = P
If we look up the Antilog of 4.8 we get 63096 (rounded up)
so 0.001 x 63096 = 63.096W
Thus P is approx. 63W.
Is this a linear equation?
No. Decibels are logarithmic. Our hearing is not linear either and this is why we use decibels. If I was to play you some sounds and gave you a choice of Sound A or Sound B being the loudest, B being twice the power level of A, you'd find it difficult to identify which was the greater. Doubling the power is just a 3dB increase. It is because our hearing is non-linear that analogue volume controls (potentiometers) in an audio amplifiers have a logarithmic resistance track. So if you were to set one mid way, and then measure the resistance of both halves of the track, the readings would be different. Tonal changes are different, linear potentiometers are used for that.
We actually can use encryption in our meshes.
Encryption is to secure the mesh network from people who aren't HAM operators and keeps unauthorized users from the mesh, which is required by the FCC.
We are required to secure the mesh since our HAM use overlaps the commercial use.
We just have to make the encryption key available to all HAM operators who request it.
You sure you don't mean a password with the encryption disabled.
The terms and agreements that bind a US Amateaur radio operator (as well as international agreements), are the reason why most hams, become hams. That and the fact they enjoy talking to themselves as well as others. Ham radio isn't about privacy, That would be commercial enviroments. As with any rule, their are exceptions.... Ham radio is about learning things on your own, doing research, building projects, putting kits together, and experimenting.
I realize that I am probably the exception here, but I have been a licensed Ham since 1999. I was 12. Their may be people who are watching this video, who weren't even born in 1999. It is possible... LOL. Cell phones were around, I think that I had a pre-paid Motorola Star Tac at the time, but that isn't what drew me into the world of Amateur radio.
I wish that more younger people would get interested in the hobby, because lets face it , it is a Hobby for most. The average age of a ham operator is about 67 years old. I get it though, it is tough to convience teens to do anything, and even people around my age can be difficult. Everyone has a smart phone, a face book app, e-mail in their pocket, ect., ect. ...
The HSMM-Mesh project was about some guys, who were hams, who wrote some firmware to put on an old $30 obsolete versitile router, and seeing what they could acheive. The beauty of Ham radio is really the experimentation side. We have some very knowledgable people who are hams... Some interesting things have been developed by those same people too.
Bottom line, If you are interested in communications, electronics, hands on experience, antenna theory, RF propagation, etc... Look into the world of amateur radio. It can be rewarding.
If you are looking for a new smartphone app, and bothered to read my post. I appoligize. LOL
73's
Ham radio is more about emergency communication !
Jeremy Sargent I too joined ham radio at 12. In December of 2015, I was licensed, it was fun learning about propagation and antenna designs! Sadly I don't get to go on the air as often as I used to, but I will continue to be a ham, hopefully go for General or Extra!
73s
You sir are a true RF sniper. If you want a better way of measuring signal strength try using a meter that measure microvolts and then do a conversion. This mesh thing is awesome! Can you imagine technically we can provide each other with all our wireless services we all use everyday. Keep up the great work in wireless!
Use number keys to see the shadow move... Awesome. Thank you Darren and Shannon for yet another great video. Cheers.
Vswr is usually seen as a cable loss, but that's with a cheaper meter. You and your tune the length of your cable to reduce the effect shown, but it's much more effective to tune your antenna to the specific frequency.
If getting HAM license, 1500W transmitter (~62dBm) is allowed without encryption. encryption makes sense. This power TX can range >100km
One comment though on the ham side is that we are not allowed to use our license for any commercial gain.
Feedback: the audio is horrible, I had to stop after 1:25
that is actually a vertical polarization 24dbi antenna.
Yep, i was just going to say the same thing... sitting here watching the 'horizontal antenna' and scratching my head thinking 'there is something wrong' in the picture !!! by the way, a fantastic series.... VK2...
Spero Davias He also refers the small "Omni" antenna as being a "vertical" polarity, which is also incorrect.
First time watching your show, thanks for the information given.
Channels 1 - 6 with such a setup require the network to be open and therefor are susceptible to tapping. Also, open networks on the aforementioned channels are techinacally legal to sniff/tap.
I thought your previous video explaining the decibels (dB) was very good. For the complicated subject matter that it is, the explanation was complete. dB is a relative number. dBm is relative to 1 milliwatt. dBi is relative to an isotropic (point source) antenna. That was the only information missing. SWR, including coax cable loss, is a bigger problem with ham equipment, not typically with WiFi units attached to the antenna as you have here (and connected with Ethernet (PoE) cable instead of coax).
HAMs are awesome, i am one myself (KF7YTI) tho i haven't played with it much yet. i hope a HAM can be on the show to do a good talk on antennas, packet radio and such, on an earlier episode Hak5 did an overview of APRS
Still have not been censored yet on the ham bands. Wifi networks have to locked out due to legality reasons.
Background music?
when u make an evil AP , is there a way to connect a rubber ducky to grab the passwords when some one logs in? I myself almost had it but had an issue to run the rubber ducky to start on login auto...??????
SWR IS STANDING WAVE RATIO basically its signal going back the wrong direction and has little to do with just how long your cables are its more to do with how its earthed or tuned!
Actually it has nothing to do with grounding. It's just a matter of impedance match.
Also, if there is an impedance mismatch, cable length will have a more pronounced power loss effect, due to the reflected wave.
Cables are usually very close to 50Ohm, however, antennas will float around 50Ohm. I don't think there's a (50 + j0) Ohm antenna anywhere.
this is the first time ive caught your channel , very infomative. im not really a hacker but i do understand some of the
communication electronics involved, loss across line voltage ect. in which impedence plays a role. i was hoping you could talk about systems designed for hilly regions of the country, such as pennsylvania, and clearify the equipment used to locate
wifi at longer distances with the hilly terain involved. thanks again, and keep up the good work.
Just found your channel. I think that this will be good information. I have used the Q-Bridge and EZ-Bridge systems. I modified one of the original Q-Bridge radios to have a N connector and used a 24 dbm grid antenna. I am linking 2 water towers over 6 miles apart. You mentioned in this video that your were horizontally polarized with your grid antenna. Actually, the antenna is vertically polarized. The antennas largest dimension is horizontal which is confusing, The feed horn is vertical and the antenna is set for vertical polarity. I do everything vertical.
That grid antenna is vertically polarized.
what kind DSLRs do you guys have now on the set?
why did the chicken cross the road ........................... physics
I just noticed your Google glass sunglasses!
Nice bots
I'd love to see you guys do something like this on the 5GHz spectrum to take advantage of higher speeds. I think the FCC rules let you turn the antenna power even higher, but I'm not sure.
Do you guys have a number I have question about these products?
Is good idear for us,nd those who won to learning networking jobs,may the good God bless u all.
It's really unfortunate that we can't use encryption on the ham bands. I am fine with no encryption on most modes, but we should be allowed to use encryption on packet radio. The upside though is that we can use 1500 watts. Not including the antenna. Antenna gain isn't factored into our power limits. It makes it easy, as long as your amplifier doesn't put out more than 1500 watts it's all good. Although 1500 watts is quite a bit of power. At 2.4 Ghz it would be dangerous. My parents microwave oven puts out 1000 watts at 2.4 Ghz. That said, people have hacked microwaves into amateur television transmitters. But I wouldn't want to stand in front of the antenna!. Typically you only see 1500 watts used on the high frequency bands by people with expensive amplifiers. Currently my equipment only allows me 100 watts on HF and 50 watts on the 144 mhz band. 100 watts or less is pretty common. And there are those of us who enjoy QRP (low power) operation at 5 watts or less. It's quite a bit of fun to reach Japan from the Bay Area on 5 watts though a home built dipole.
How can you be licensed and not know that encryption is allowed by the FCC for certain things? They must hand out technician licenses to anyone these days.
John Favaloro
I am aware that encryption is permitted for control commands to space stations and radio controlled craft. Those are very limited uses of encryption. So it's simpler (although not 100% accurate) to say that you can't use encryption. For most of the things people use ham radio for, you can't use encryption.
By the way, I am General class. So the FCC must be handing those out to anyone too :P
"...get alot of gain with that." LOL you'll gain the cash register empty lol
I would like to see some ham operators get together and make a network to emulate the original"Internet" with data bases and Mosaic browsers /w no encryption. It would probably grow like a virus without any viruses! :-)
How many watts we can possibly use with 24dbi grid antenna??
If encryption is allowed then there is no way to regulate commercial use on amateur bands. It is unfortunate but well worth it IMHO.
It's just kind a useless for most meshnet purposes since the idea is that you have a private network that government can't affect and if your communications are in complete clear to anyone to see then you might as well be using the public Internet.
I have no idea about the regulations or how radio stuff even works, but can't you have anything encrypted over the signal or can't the signal just be encrypted? I'm just wondering if you could send the signal in "clear" but have the actual message by encrypted.
Muromuro As far as I know everything would have to be in the clear. So I wouldn't be allowed to use my ham privileges to email someone an encrypted file.
That's an interesting point I hadn't though of. If people used encryption you would have no way of knowing if they are conducting business. I still think it would be nice if we could use encryption on packet radio. Perhaps allow encryption but have a rule that stipulates that your ID had to be in the clear. So at least you would know who the transmission is coming from.
loss is due to resistance and resistance is measurerd in ohms
Impedance - signal loss in a cable has a frequency dependent component also, so it's impedance, not simple resistance.
Resistance is inpedance haha
No, it's not - resistance DC, Impedance is AC as it's frequency dependant.
great device I love it, where did u buy ur poe cable from ?
vswr is just the reflection of the signal. From my radio theory class iirq you want to keep it under 3. At 3 you're losing about 1/4 of your signals power.
It's the ratio between the amplitude of constructive amplitude of both forward and reflected signal, and the amplitude of destructive interference of both waves... but close enough - it's related to the reflection of the signal, not the cable loss, as it's presented here :)
Great review.
where is this in the southbay? looks familiar :)
im using a ALFA 1000mw with a +9 dbi antenne .. wat is my max ouput? i get a range of like 3 miles
It surprise me why you guys dont make a video about solor power wifi router or access point. Just a thought around youtube
how many miles can you transmit/receive?
I hope that antenna wasn't live when he was sitting in front of it..
any time that you guys will release pineapple software for compatible other routers?
openmesh right now have some good stuff
BTW your antenna was vertically polarized.
Darren and Shannon look alike, they most be from the same mother, but different fathers.
Its not cable on its called attenuation.
Very interested in learning about mesh networks town wifi / websites ect
how can i contact you off list. Im a Hams and i think i have LOs to that roof... Im all ready...
would love to be able to do a mile LOS, would this be possilbe in your config?
LetsDo ThisThing Yes. A mile is easy.
If you have line of sight that is. You need to research the "Fresnel Zone" a bit. That will be how you determine how high your dish needs to be above obstructions (trees etc...).
These systems can easily link 20 miles or more in the right conditions. Links as far as 75-80 miles have been created.
+thallium200 if i want to do about 1.5 mile wifi point to point where would i start? theres only one big eucalyptus tree in the way which is about 150 yards away from the host.
+fpsfreak Is the tree in direct line of sight? Use Google maps to see your host and client on the map. While zooming in you will see if the tree is directly in the way or not.
If it is in the way you only have three options (two may not be an option at all). Get the dishes over the height of the tree. Cut the tree down. Use a third point in the network that routes the path around the tree.
The fourth would be try and see if you can establish a link with the tree in the way.
As far as equipment?
Ubiquity Bullets allow you to use a bi-directional amplifier in front of the dish for better power.
Ubiquity Dishes (built in wifi transceiver) are lower power but work well for a couple miles+.
Linksys WRT routers are the old school mesh standby. They work and you can also use a bi-directional amplifier in front of them.
ok scratched that.i thought the big tree(about 100 feet or so lol) was in the way.but i counted 3 trees in the way.i think they are about 15-20 feet in height.i got to check tomorrow in person.for every 200 yards theres 1 tree in the way.so 3 trees in the way.
the airlink calculator says it's exactly 1.3 miles.house to house.
Darren, are you using Google Glass ?
Someone's working up to be a 25Q in the US Army
10:20 Does it only apply to top layer radio encryption (WPA ect), or any encryption whatsoever? That would sure be a bummer if you setup a licensed super wifi point but couldn't use SSL, SSH, or VPN.... right.. Sure we're not using 'encryption' on our licensed wifi ;p
what a dinosaur of a law.
You need to teach me about this
We can't use any encryption on the ham bands. The only exceptions being control commands to radio controlled craft or space stations. It SUCKS! We should at least be permitted to use encryption for packet radio.
Forgot to comment early on ... AWOMSE BB gun ... too bad that it is nt the Real Thing :) I would love to get one of those .300Win Mag with a great scope ... long range shooting is awsome!
Actually, you can use encryption as long as the type of encryption is set to public, like WEP.
www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Legal.pdf
I have a old Tv dish Satellite antenna can i use that to extend the range?
the
???
everyone press 2 right now
Awsome Stance!! Government does not OWN Radiofrequency ! Once Agreed upon that some Spectrum is Public for all to use no government has anything to do with it ! NO license should be asked for a Resource that belongs to Nature! Hence to all of those that want to enjoy it.
To get a license you have to show that you understand radio electronics and the physics behind it. It's to stop, for example, a hobby project accidently hindering usage of a city wide EMS radio.
rageman1977 Anyone can do that Even Knowingly ... Anyone can interfere and effectively Shutdown for communication purposes ANY frequency or even the all Spectrum ... again, Why the license ?
Simple control of the Sheeple ...
Even though I am an Anarchist I do agree with ham licensing. Some sort of regulation is needed to make the RF spectrum usable. If anyone could do whatever they want at whatever frequency they want, it would be a nightmare. Just look at CB. People run way more power than I am allowed as a ham and they end up causing all kinds of interference. They get away with it because the FCC hardly ever goes after CBers. I would hate to see the rest of the RF spectrum turn into CB.
purplemutantas
Then you are not an Anarchist, you're a Statist ... I am a Libertarian and the Regulation ALREADY Exists ... it's Embedded on the Technical Specifications on Any electronic devices that operates on any frequency.
That's the regulation, or better Tech specifications, not regulation. I also believe in that. That is not Human Regulation= Dictatorship, that is simply a Technical Specification in order, obviously, to make the Spectrum usable. Control by the government of People has nothing to do with the usable Spectrum, it as all to do with dictatorial control by the govt.
If indeed you are an anarchist you should know that already ...Anarchy means no Rulers ... not no rules ...
purplemutantas
So...you're really NOT an anarchist.
Pure Technolust! Feed Me! 💻🪓
HMMM, SO BIG HUH
google: radio mobile
Is it just me or does this very irritating music keep playing? Please, stop it.
LOL @ 11:45, so, cool I'll just climb up on your roof and connect my network star tap and patch in, mkay? ;-)
Anyone who has attempted to wade through the leagues of idiots on CB radio would appreciate the need for regulation and licensing on ham bands. Sorry you miss the point, Darren.
Get you Ham license and follow the rules