This presentation is so precise and elegant in its expression because it gets at the very soul of these two streams of consciousness. As someone raised in an Evangelical household where CS Lewis was deeply revered, you unveiled the mind of my youth. Now, after practicing several religions and in many different esoteric schools you have unveiled the contents of my middle-life porous heart. I thank you for vocalizing the mind of the Logos in articulating the nuances of our current fork in the road. This fork was there from the beginning of the Incarnation, but with each generation, the distinctions become more visible and the Individual choice more poignant. I wish my pastoral father could watch this and finally understand the differences between our two perspectives. But there's something about certain Lewis minds that can't truly listen and appreciate the differences of the Barfield mind without feeling threatened or attacked, or just so uncomfortably disoriented that the authentic meaning is grossly misinterpreted. I have learned to stick with universals while interacting with the Lewis mind and the greatest universal in which oneness can emerge is Love. Much appreciated.
Thank you so much Mark for the work that you are doing. I really enjoy listening to you not just because of the great care and attention that you put into the content but underneath I can feel your heart and love in all that you are doing. To me it feels like something very precious is happening as the exploration of Christianity is being explored right now. I like that you are slowly teasing out some wonderful teachings that Jesus has been presenting to us and bringing them alive for us all to join you in. Thank you for bringing Barfield's more intuitive, mystical and romantic feel to the Christian way. I feel you are opening the door to Christ in a new way for us all. It feels fun and exciting to be in this exploration together. Thank you.
You always make me feel less crazy. I don’t know how I could have been raised so steeped in Lewis and grow steadily towards the Barfieldian flow instead.
@@PlatosPodcasts I'll think on that! The way my life works at the moment, it would be easier for me to do something like your video about it. I don't mean to sound like I'm buttering you up, but your videos are the things that most often feel right to me. There are usually several affirming things that let me know that the vision taking shape in me is not simply silly or vague. It's a very hard thing to make articulate.
Shortly after I saw this video posted, I saw, on FB, that Addison Hodges Hart had posted an article from the UK Spectator, written by a British man named Justin Brierley, about this very revival of interest in Christianity. Mr.Brierley also has a new book and companion podcast about this. Mr. Vernon should consider a future UA-cam conversation with him. Here in the US, it is unfortunate that we don't seem to have Christian thinkers like Vernon, Lewis and Barfield here. The UK is lucky to have them!
So true! Also, UK has given us Rupert Sheldrake's brilliant contributions to the subject of Science & Spirituality--kicking open closed doors everywhere!
Just a note, Mark, to thank you for this and your many other talks and conversations. I suspect that Barfield would have appreciated what I think was a blackbird outside the chapel, whose song became audible around the 17th minute and accompanied you for quite a while. You had a noble supporter :-)
It seems to me we should harmoniously ‘hold’ both their perspectives. We need them both. As an aside - it also seems to me that, anyone still under the illusion that we’re in the midst of a ‘Culture War’ rather than a ‘Spiritual War’, isn’t paying sufficient attention. Thank you Mark.
As T.S. Eliot said of poetry, it is "...not the assertion of truth, but the making of that truth more fully real to us." Thanks for this illuminating reflection.
Interesting from Eliot, thanks. I wonder if he felt that poetry is a revelation of truth too. Barfield certainly felt poetry enables participation in more.
I think that something is happening. I decided to go to the local church (Swedish evangelical lutheran church) for 1 hour christian meditation/contemplation friday afternoon. I was very surprised when i saw the gathering of people there, at least 30 persons, that i didn´t expect on a friday at dinner time. Then when my family tried to participate a traditional lunch at the same church easter day, it was all full booked. People are looking back, in to the old traditions more than 10 years ago. It is the time we live in, the confusion, and the common problem we face i think. The other tradition, especially the non dual and buddhist ones, have helped people to look in to what Christianity has to offer. On top of that, in popular culture, the TV-series "The chosen" have made an impact on young people. And it is as you say, two sides of the coin of "the revival", a romantic and a more "explanatory" strain that interest people.
Mark, this talk is amazing and timely - couldn't we have a twelve-chapters book from you expanding upon each of these polarities for the general reader? It would be an absolute spiritual gift . Many, many thanks.
You have bought back memories of Narnia and my favourite idea from it...... 'he/ Aslan, is not Tame lion you know. ' we can never fully own joy or imaginations ....
I really appreciate your clear articulation of these two approaches to sacred understanding and the living of it. Thank you. Your detailed examination of these authors draws into relief a distinction that is useful for dialogue moving forward. Peaceful and creative dialogue, with a significant potential for healing and reconciliation, especially if the complementarity of the two ways of understanding is held sacred. I'm very curious as to whether Barfield had any exposure to the works of Emmanuel Swedenborg. At first glance there seems to be quite an affinity there. I do have your book and look forward to listening in for more detail. Asking in advance nonetheless after hearing this discussion, though.
I am astonished to say that I feel like I am, in fact, undergoing this process of "slow conversion". That thought would have made me angry, twenty five years ago. Listening to the likes of you, Rupert Sheldrake, and David Bentley Hart has been instrumental. Thank you!
Tom Holland did it for me. I am coming back full circle from being baptised and confirmed a Reformed Protestant to many years of atheism/ agnosticism ( I was never quite sure but knew I had lost something precious) then about a decade each as a Buddhist and Sufi. Finally- so I thought- I became a Quaker, but now I want to go into the depth of Christianity, maybe in Orthodoxy. I am 80 now and still a seeker, each of my religious phase has been a step towards the light.
Yes, it seems an endless drawing and expanding desire for experiencing more of the Presence of God and knowing Jesus Christ...tho I once saw it all began in an instant of time, via my choice! I think now Spirit was using it all in leading me to that point, for good outcomes (Rom 8:28) as we were first innocent (in garden) before lost (thru Fall). There was a concious pivotal point in time (Lewis) and now it has evolved into more of a mystical journey of letting go of religious baggage and a conciousness of Holy Spirit enabling all life...but also as my intimate inner GPS.
The spirit of evil is the negation of the life force by fear. Only boldness can deliver us from fear. If the risk is not taken, the meaning of life is violated. - C.G. Jung, from "Symbols of Transformation."
This is a fantastic analysis however, but as I think you well know, Lewis is complicated. Certainly in the Lewis of the Apologetic work is accurately described here, but in his fiction he is often quite different. It 's also noteworthy that he wrote a rather glowing introduction to Douglas Harding's Hierarchy of Heaven and Earth.
You are right. Barfield said that there were at least two Lewis's - in fact, in one talk he said five! The integration was the key piece, Barfield said perhaps coming together in Till We Have Faces and the poem Reason.
It seems to me, we should endeavour to harmoniously ‘hold’ both their perspectives. We need them both. As mentioned, when opposites are held together we’re afforded a more Beautiful, Good and True vision of the path ahead. As an aside Mark - it also seems to me, that anyone who’s still under the illusion that we’re in the midst of a ‘Culture War’, rather than a ‘Spiritual War’, isn’t paying sufficient attention. As always, thank you!
@@PlatosPodcasts Lewis is tactical and Barfield is 1000 feet up. They would have made great collaborators, but I think both were so deeply engrossed in relatively un-charted paths and it was too much to synthesize.
Are you suggesting the "revival" currently underway is more the atomistic, Lewis type, which is perhaps cause for concern? That is how I see it, but I'm not sure if I'm projecting.
Being temperamentally more of the Barfield than the Lewis bent, I do think Christianity will have to take some uncomfortable stands as to culture war issues, going forward, if it is to remain relevant. The current Pope's vascillating, zig zag opacity, is a recipe for disaster in the current tempest. Just my intuitive take, mate.
Interested you feel that as more of a "Barfieldian", as my sense is cultural issues are less critical to him. Matters of cultural hierarchy, for example, he said were crucial to Lewis (role of men and women etc) but he felt changed as part of the evolution of consciousness.
For whatever reasons, we just haven't taught how much 1300s - 1,500s changed lives from just what was tradition passed down to actually knowing what's theologically discovered & inspired could, in fact, be scientifically studied and mathematically confirmed. This tradition that goes on to America has sadly been self sacrificed greatly in the 1900s. It's very pragmatic,it wants to recognize what is subjective, physical but has no issues treating them eqaul measure sigma 6 style. It wants to be precise and accurate to avoid 3 degrees of separation physically mystification but only because 1900s structuralism stands as an example why this puts rulers in position to use it against us. To dictate meaning in our lives by weaponizing a subtle feature in our physical reality. One theologically Discovered Newtonian mapped and we fell for it again anyways. 100 years ago I'm sure this orientation and direction seemed eccentric to the rest of the world but what explanations to do we have for millions of 3rd grade health class gallaleo kids asking for and predicting code of life measure despite not being discovered and teachers ordered to ream them out with out with old world models that feedback loops of Europe & Darwin piggyback because the Demetri mendolov ortho to whoever coalitions want to Salave old naming ordering categorizing so badly? To put time back in nature give it back divine property despite the miracle in legibility and that humans can read it. That despite what we want creation to be we can actually listen to what it tells us as selfless actors of pure intentions. Word/ code is the most precise scientific tool when strengthened by measure biblically guided but we prescribe meaning upon it as our creator graced us with . Why has uk ^ usa especially given up so much in this past century is mind boggling. I understand the greater world holds a more dualistic borderline pagan view of matter but it doesn't explain why teachers inverted what they're hi jacking in explanatory power over natural system then sticking it under a more old world controdidicted model quest structuralism. Obviously this alignment in schools stripped the soul agency out but shoes hospitality towards the rest world enough to carry baggage. Maybe oil money , politics influences.
Our relationship with the Christ through the Holy Spirit doesn't need special forms of organised belief to embody such a recognition - including the expression of cultural worth-ship and with-ness. The sticking place is set in thinking - or rather in fallacies of thought & belief operating as structure through which we misperceive everything and misinterpret everything. God Created One Son - but for me this means nothing ELSE! - not one specialness. I find Jesus in A Course in Miracles speaks to the foundation of a Christ child or consciousness within. Not to the ego of the attempt to pass off as real in our own right. But only to the willingness to heal a split mind. Anything can be purposed to serve truth or protect illusions in the name, form or letter of truth. But having judged amiss - all else will follow a split course unless yielded or given over to the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus - as you Call to is of the word on the heart not the lips.
John 17:3,17. A Christian is a disciple of JC. The Faithful and True Witness. Revelation. 3:14. He acknowledged The Sovereign and Creator of the Universe. Matthew 4:10/Deut 6:13. He fullfilled The Mosaic Law. Matt 5:17; it's a narrow n cramped road, Matt 7:13,14. Agape love is the hallmark of true Christians. John 13:34 35 Christians must be 'no part of Satan's world system. Politically neutral in order to tell the Good News of Jehovah's Kingdom government to all without partiality. Matt 24:14, Christendom, the Bible's false friend. It's God's manifesto not ours. He doesn't make conscripts, hve free will to choose. 1 Cor 1:10🕊
This presentation is so precise and elegant in its expression because it gets at the very soul of these two streams of consciousness. As someone raised in an Evangelical household where CS Lewis was deeply revered, you unveiled the mind of my youth. Now, after practicing several religions and in many different esoteric schools you have unveiled the contents of my middle-life porous heart. I thank you for vocalizing the mind of the Logos in articulating the nuances of our current fork in the road. This fork was there from the beginning of the Incarnation, but with each generation, the distinctions become more visible and the Individual choice more poignant.
I wish my pastoral father could watch this and finally understand the differences between our two perspectives. But there's something about certain Lewis minds that can't truly listen and appreciate the differences of the Barfield mind without feeling threatened or attacked, or just so uncomfortably disoriented that the authentic meaning is grossly misinterpreted. I have learned to stick with universals while interacting with the Lewis mind and the greatest universal in which oneness can emerge is Love. Much appreciated.
Thank you so much Mark for the work that you are doing. I really enjoy listening to you not just because of the great care and attention that you put into the content but underneath I can feel your heart and love in all that you are doing. To me it feels like something very precious is happening as the exploration of Christianity is being explored right now. I like that you are slowly teasing out some wonderful teachings that Jesus has been presenting to us and bringing them alive for us all to join you in. Thank you for bringing Barfield's more intuitive, mystical and romantic feel to the Christian way. I feel you are opening the door to Christ in a new way for us all. It feels fun and exciting to be in this exploration together. Thank you.
Barfield was certainly crucial for me
You always make me feel less crazy. I don’t know how I could have been raised so steeped in Lewis and grow steadily towards the Barfieldian flow instead.
You should write about that!
@@PlatosPodcasts I'll think on that! The way my life works at the moment, it would be easier for me to do something like your video about it. I don't mean to sound like I'm buttering you up, but your videos are the things that most often feel right to me. There are usually several affirming things that let me know that the vision taking shape in me is not simply silly or vague. It's a very hard thing to make articulate.
@@MourningTalkShow There’s value in talking it out, I find, yes.
Totally brilliant. So clear. The distinctions made here are profound as they outline the fundamental differences in how Christianity is perceived too.
Brilliant exposition, Mark. Thank you.
Brilliant and lacklustre are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱
Thank you for an excellent talk which resonates with our times.
Shortly after I saw this video posted, I saw, on FB, that Addison Hodges Hart had posted an article from the UK Spectator, written by a British man named Justin Brierley, about this very revival of interest in Christianity. Mr.Brierley also has a new book and companion podcast about this. Mr. Vernon should consider a future UA-cam conversation with him. Here in the US, it is unfortunate that we don't seem to have Christian thinkers like Vernon, Lewis and Barfield here. The UK is lucky to have them!
I saw Justin Brierley's piece, yes thanks.
So true! Also, UK has given us Rupert Sheldrake's brilliant contributions to the subject of Science & Spirituality--kicking open closed doors everywhere!
hi, Mark! one of your best episodes yet! thanks, God bless!
Superb. You bring much clarity and articulation to an otherwise dim sense of things not quite being in tune.
Just a note, Mark, to thank you for this and your many other talks and conversations. I suspect that Barfield would have appreciated what I think was a blackbird outside the chapel, whose song became audible around the 17th minute and accompanied you for quite a while. You had a noble supporter :-)
It seems to me we should harmoniously ‘hold’ both their perspectives. We need them both.
As an aside - it also seems to me that, anyone still under the illusion that we’re in the midst of a ‘Culture War’ rather than a ‘Spiritual War’, isn’t paying sufficient attention.
Thank you Mark.
Good points, yes
Wonderful sharing Mark, thank you.. feeling very one with the flow.. I love the ‘Poem of Now’. ❤️💞
As T.S. Eliot said of poetry, it is "...not the assertion of truth, but the making of that truth more fully real to us." Thanks for this illuminating reflection.
Interesting from Eliot, thanks. I wonder if he felt that poetry is a revelation of truth too. Barfield certainly felt poetry enables participation in more.
Love that
I think that something is happening. I decided to go to the local church (Swedish evangelical lutheran church) for 1 hour christian meditation/contemplation friday afternoon. I was very surprised when i saw the gathering of people there, at least 30 persons, that i didn´t expect on a friday at dinner time. Then when my family tried to participate a traditional lunch at the same church easter day, it was all full booked. People are looking back, in to the old traditions more than 10 years ago. It is the time we live in, the confusion, and the common problem we face i think. The other tradition, especially the non dual and buddhist ones, have helped people to look in to what Christianity has to offer. On top of that, in popular culture, the TV-series "The chosen" have made an impact on young people. And it is as you say, two sides of the coin of "the revival", a romantic and a more "explanatory" strain that interest people.
Thx Mark. Very helpful
Mark, this talk is amazing and timely - couldn't we have a twelve-chapters book from you expanding upon each of these polarities for the general reader? It would be an absolute spiritual gift . Many, many thanks.
I live your videis,Mark,abd I hve read your recent book twice.
You have bought back memories of Narnia and my favourite idea from it...... 'he/ Aslan, is not Tame lion you know. ' we can never fully own joy or imaginations ....
I really appreciate your clear articulation of these two approaches to sacred understanding and the living of it. Thank you.
Your detailed examination of these authors draws into relief a distinction that is useful for dialogue moving forward. Peaceful and creative dialogue, with a significant potential for healing and reconciliation, especially if the complementarity of the two ways of understanding is held sacred.
I'm very curious as to whether Barfield had any exposure to the works of Emmanuel Swedenborg. At first glance there seems to be quite an affinity there. I do have your book and look forward to listening in for more detail. Asking in advance nonetheless after hearing this discussion, though.
Thank you so much.
I am astonished to say that I feel like I am, in fact, undergoing this process of "slow conversion". That thought would have made me angry, twenty five years ago. Listening to the likes of you, Rupert Sheldrake, and David Bentley Hart has been instrumental. Thank you!
It happens to the best of us!
Tom Holland did it for me. I am coming back full circle from being baptised and confirmed a Reformed Protestant to many years of atheism/ agnosticism ( I was never quite sure but knew I had lost something precious) then about a decade each as a Buddhist and Sufi. Finally- so I thought- I became a Quaker, but now I want to go into the depth of Christianity, maybe in Orthodoxy. I am 80 now and still a seeker, each of my religious phase has been a step towards the light.
@@brunischling9680 That’s powerful to read, thanks for sharing. Here’s to the seeking!
Yes, it seems an endless drawing and expanding desire for experiencing more of the Presence of God and knowing Jesus Christ...tho I once saw it all began in an instant of time, via my choice! I think now Spirit was using it all in leading me to that point, for good outcomes (Rom 8:28) as we were first innocent (in garden) before lost (thru Fall). There was a concious pivotal point in time (Lewis) and now it has evolved into more of a mystical journey of letting go of religious baggage and a conciousness of Holy Spirit enabling all life...but also as my intimate inner GPS.
This was very helpful Mark. I’m not sure why but Lewis has never really appealed . Is it the position of apologetics.
Apologetics that has designs on you, a sort of possessiveness or trapping feel...
The spirit of evil is the negation of the life force by fear. Only boldness can deliver us from fear. If the risk is not taken, the meaning of life is violated. - C.G. Jung, from "Symbols of Transformation."
Jung saw evil close up, too...
This is a fantastic analysis however, but as I think you well know, Lewis is complicated. Certainly in the Lewis of the Apologetic work is accurately described here, but in his fiction he is often quite different. It 's also noteworthy that he wrote a rather glowing introduction to Douglas Harding's Hierarchy of Heaven and Earth.
You are right. Barfield said that there were at least two Lewis's - in fact, in one talk he said five! The integration was the key piece, Barfield said perhaps coming together in Till We Have Faces and the poem Reason.
It seems to me, we should endeavour to harmoniously ‘hold’ both their perspectives. We need them both. As mentioned, when opposites are held together we’re afforded a more Beautiful, Good and True vision of the path ahead.
As an aside Mark - it also seems to me, that anyone who’s still under the illusion that we’re in the midst of a ‘Culture War’, rather than a ‘Spiritual War’, isn’t paying sufficient attention.
As always, thank you!
@@Terpsichore1 Good points, yes.
@@PlatosPodcasts Lewis is tactical and Barfield is 1000 feet up. They would have made great collaborators, but I think both were so deeply engrossed in relatively un-charted paths and it was too much to synthesize.
@@PlatosPodcasts I knew you would understand, yes, that precisely it, which makes Lewis so very wonderfully human and relatable.
Are you suggesting the "revival" currently underway is more the atomistic, Lewis type, which is perhaps cause for concern? That is how I see it, but I'm not sure if I'm projecting.
I'm certainly assuming that in part of it. But it's also about discerning the mix of what's happening (given something is).
There is a lot happening
Being temperamentally more of the Barfield than the Lewis bent, I do think Christianity will have to take some uncomfortable stands as to culture war issues, going forward, if it is to remain relevant. The current Pope's vascillating, zig zag opacity, is a recipe for disaster in the current tempest. Just my intuitive take, mate.
Interested you feel that as more of a "Barfieldian", as my sense is cultural issues are less critical to him. Matters of cultural hierarchy, for example, he said were crucial to Lewis (role of men and women etc) but he felt changed as part of the evolution of consciousness.
Sent you a reply Mark, to your relply; don't see it posted, perhaps it will show up at some point. @@PlatosPodcasts
For whatever reasons, we just haven't taught how much 1300s - 1,500s changed lives from just what was tradition passed down to actually knowing what's theologically discovered & inspired could, in fact, be scientifically studied and mathematically confirmed.
This tradition that goes on to America has sadly been self sacrificed greatly in the 1900s.
It's very pragmatic,it wants to recognize what is subjective, physical but has no issues treating them eqaul measure sigma 6 style.
It wants to be precise and accurate to avoid 3 degrees of separation physically mystification but only because 1900s structuralism stands as an example why this puts rulers in position to use it against us. To dictate meaning in our lives by weaponizing a subtle feature in our physical reality. One theologically Discovered Newtonian mapped and we fell for it again anyways.
100 years ago I'm sure this orientation and direction seemed eccentric to the rest of the world but what explanations to do we have for millions of 3rd grade health class gallaleo kids asking for and predicting code of life measure despite not being discovered and teachers ordered to ream them out with out with old world models that feedback loops of Europe & Darwin piggyback because the Demetri mendolov ortho to whoever coalitions want to Salave old naming ordering categorizing so badly? To put time back in nature give it back divine property despite the miracle in legibility and that humans can read it. That despite what we want creation to be we can actually listen to what it tells us as selfless actors of pure intentions.
Word/ code is the most precise scientific tool when strengthened by measure biblically guided but we prescribe meaning upon it as our creator graced us with .
Why has uk ^ usa especially given up so much in this past century is mind boggling. I understand the greater world holds a more dualistic borderline pagan view of matter but it doesn't explain why teachers inverted what they're hi jacking in explanatory power over natural system then sticking it under a more old world controdidicted model quest structuralism.
Obviously this alignment in schools stripped the soul agency out but shoes hospitality towards the rest world enough to carry baggage. Maybe oil money , politics influences.
Our relationship with the Christ through the Holy Spirit doesn't need special forms of organised belief to embody such a recognition - including the expression of cultural worth-ship and with-ness. The sticking place is set in thinking - or rather in fallacies of thought & belief operating as structure through which we misperceive everything and misinterpret everything.
God Created One Son - but for me this means nothing ELSE! - not one specialness.
I find Jesus in A Course in Miracles speaks to the foundation of a Christ child or consciousness within.
Not to the ego of the attempt to pass off as real in our own right.
But only to the willingness to heal a split mind.
Anything can be purposed to serve truth or protect illusions in the name, form or letter of truth.
But having judged amiss - all else will follow a split course unless yielded or given over to the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus - as you Call to is of the word on the heart not the lips.
John 17:3,17. A Christian is a disciple of JC. The Faithful and True Witness. Revelation. 3:14. He acknowledged The Sovereign and Creator of the Universe. Matthew 4:10/Deut 6:13. He fullfilled The Mosaic Law. Matt 5:17; it's a narrow n cramped road, Matt 7:13,14. Agape love is the hallmark of true Christians. John 13:34 35 Christians must be 'no part of Satan's world system. Politically neutral in order to tell the Good News of Jehovah's Kingdom government to all without partiality. Matt 24:14, Christendom, the Bible's false friend.
It's God's manifesto not ours. He doesn't make conscripts, hve free will to choose. 1 Cor 1:10🕊
I think it’s called LARPing.