Orvis Helios 4D vs 4F Fly Rod Review
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- The Orvis Helios 4 Series might be the hottest release of the year. Orvis is claiming it's 4x more accurate than the Helios 3. We put it to the test to find out if it holds up to Orvis's bold claims.
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Chapters
0:00 - Intro/Overview
1:27 - Specs
3:08 - Casting/Performance
6:05 - Poseidon Score
8:55 - Price/Final Thoughts
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Ben, review the F model again using a line that is applicable to the rod then report back tobus with your results.
We've cast the F with lighter lines - as I mentioned in the video, it's what I would use for that rod. Switching lines while testing reveals less about the intrinsic qualities of the rod. I've gotten really good at evaluating rods with our test set of lines, so I can tell you a lot about a rod with an MPX, but if I put a Triangle taper on the rod (which might be the more appropriate line to fish with), I won't be able to tell you as much about the taper because we've introduced another variable into the equation. If you put a lighter line on the F, it will feel more like the D, which is way less interesting and useful than having a second, softer taper that suits different strokes and fishing situations.
@@Tridentflyfishing what rewiev on your Channel should i study if i search distance casting (5 or 6 weight) more models are prefered
The difference, Ben, is that when you are testing one thousand one hundred dollar rods - you treat the rod and line as a system; meaning they work together to establish peak performance. Most people reading this understand the AFTMA standards. Perspective buyers, IMHO, should be leery of what you IMAGINE an F MIGHT cast like would you have actually used a more suitable line - despite your familiarity with the MPX. You shouldn’t need an MPX to tell you how a rod is tapered and its level of stiffness in different spots along the blank. Above you said you cast it with other lines, but in the video you recommend other lines, but don’t say or even infer that you’ve actually tried the other lines. And, again, you show us casting with MPX AND ONLY report on how it “clunkily” casts with MPX. Buyers are repeatedly telling you that if they spend that much at your shop, they would like to hear with as much detail as possible how well it casts with a specific line. Lastly, were you to take a more scientific method approach (as you’re referencing with variables), the scientific method starts with a problem and a testable question. As such, you’re looking to inform your buyers of the absolute peak performance of a specific rod/line system when the buyer spends $1,100. Remember the saying about the customers being right, maybe consider being more open-minded and doing what they’re asking. That’s customer service. I’ve bought from you before and I wish your business well. Please take this as constructive criticism.
Accuracy comes from mastering your skill not buying a $1200 fly rod
“The F feels a little bit clunky with the MPX.”
Well, of course it does. You’re not controlling a variable by casting both rods using the same line, as the F definitely wasn’t designed for MPX. Perhaps consider using an appropriate line for each rod in the future, as others have continued to comment in your videos over the years. Thanks for any consideration.
I was gonna say the same thing. It’s odd to me that “true to line casting” is mentioned like it’s something odd only a few people may want to do. Line choice can make or break a rod IMO.
Reading the comments section has been such an interesting experience. Most fly anglers seem to be more interested in the looks rather than performance of their rods. As a marketing expert, I have to congratulate Orvis for such a bold and controversial move with that white color patch and their decision to stick with it in H4, despite the criticism. That sort of boldness is rarely seen this days, especially with big companies who tend to "play it safe", trying to please everyone. The fact that anglers TALK about that white patch THIS much is a testament that Orvis' strategy works. As somebody here has said, when you see it on the water from a far, you know that that particular angler has some serious money to spend on a rod. Same thing happened in photography when Canon started coloring their premium "L" series lenses in white. Brilliant.
You sound like the same “marketing expert” that Bud Lite used.
@@davidball5002 Well, one of the first things you learn in this business is that everybody is a marketing expert.
😆😆
Great job enjoyed the information. Makes me think about casting one myself with the info from your show
Looking for a Scott Session review!
A rod this expensive should not only look like a brand new Porsche, it should handle like one too with zero compromises.
I cast a 486 F today with an airflo tactical trout taper. It was a pretty good match. A couple things that stood out to me was the blank recovery and stability. There was really no need to alter the casting cadence or power from a short cast to a long one as well. Also cast the 890 D with SA general salt water taper and noticed the same qualities. Seemed like good rods. That being said neither made me “giggle”. I’m a sage guy though so what do I know 🤷♂️.
Over the weekend, I had a chance to cast the H4 8D compared to the Hardy Marksman Z 890-4. With the Orvis, I could make longer casts with better power and control. However, at 20% more than the Hardy, I'd be buying the Hardy, if I were buying a new rod. Since I had the chance, I compared both to the H3 8F. The Hardy was much closer to my H3, meaning it had more feel, but wasn't quite as smooth. I found that for longer casts, say 70', the H4D had more power and control than the H3. What struck me as I looked at the rod compared to the other high-end rods in the shop was that the Orvis looked like a lower-cost production rod, so the $1,200 price seemed high. Note: All three rods were cast with the same Cortland saltwater line.
I have an 843 H3F and absolutely love the way it casts. Every time I cast that rod it makes me smile, with one exception, how it looks. That grey spacer is just the most crap thing I've seen on any fly rod and coupled with the dull grey blank it produces a rod I simply don't want to look at. I was hoping for something of a renaissance with the H4, but it would seem that aesthetics don't count for much at Orvis HQ. Perhaps I'm just getting old.😁
Thanks Ben. I'm looking forward to the 9 foot 8 weight review as I have a 908 Helios 2 Covert (We all know it isn't really an H2, don't we) and when I put it up against the H3D and H3F both myself and the local Orvis Staff preferred the Covert. So it'll be interesting to see how the Helios 4 908 compares. As for the price tag...? I think that going over the £1K price point is hard to swallow for a fly rod, especially when you look at the shorter models.
Ben, always a great review! I have a 3D 8wt and love it, could care less about the white. Looking to get a 7 wt and am looking for your opinion. Looking at this rod, a Marksman Z and a Winston air 2 salt. I can’t cast them all at the same time due to availability around me. Also, what are your thoughts on the 8’5” 4D. I will be using this in Florida but also throwing sink line streamer fishing in Michigan rivers. I will cast them, but do appreciate your opinion. Thx for your time.
Love my white Orvis 3H & 3F. Color does not affect my casting at all. And since I'm not a professional, even my Recon casts awesome!!
love my 3d as well, I did get a blue one :)
Debating trying to find one on closeout!
Another great review Ben. We're hoping to get these in this quarter as well. Nicely done. (I much prefer the other colors over the white... but it's Orvis branding and recog. I'm sure)
Okay Ben, got one for you. Looking for a 6 weight to throw dries at distance or wind. 45-75'. Got it narrowed down to the truth z, ultralight X, igniter or this. Which would you pick?
I own a H2 5wt. I will never part with it, and might sleep with it if not being a bit kinky. Big fan of Orvis is so many ways. However, that white butt section is degrading to the appearance. I believe it is there for marketing purposes only. Looking across a river and seeing that white and you know it's a Helios.
They are a great product I’m sure and Orvis backs their products. But when I look at it. It’s got no soul. I donno. Just looks cheap, cold. I know it’s not. But honestly looks cheap. No malicious intent. If it’s anything like the 3D , then people should buy one line size down. You want this rod in a 5wt , get a 4wt and it will perform like a 5wt. My 3D Blue Label has allot of power for a 5wt. Wish back in the day I bought the 4wt.
The action of the 4F is different than the 3F ? more soft / More stiff ?
what reel and what size were you using in the video?
I’m going to Greenland after arctic char , I’ve got a sage r8 6964 but was looking for a 5 weight, it’s fishing streamers and floating flies how does the 9.6 #5 Helios compare to the sage r8 5964 for that type of fishing
SO what is the best top end 4 weight 9 foot fly rod for the price? Looking to buy but it's a mine field out there!
Are you going to do reveiw on the winston air 2 max?
Even though I have one $800 rod, I don't think I'll ever spend that kind of money again. The $300-$500 price point rods are just too good. I'm the biggest variable in my casting, not the rod. All that said, if I were going to spend over $1000 on a rod, I'd expect performance as well as aesthetics. And that big white label just screams mass manufacturing. And their reason for dropping the hook keeper is indeed lame. For that kind of money, I'd want everything I'm looking for in a rod, not to make compromises.
Why would you bother reviewing the F with MPX? Nobody would ever use that line on that rod.
Excellent presentation Ben , thank you.
I'll start by saying I'm an orvis fan. I've owned 7 or 8 recons and helios rods over the years. The H2 was a huge leap in tech and performance. The H3 brought the ultra high tech and performance. I just don't know that the H4 is bringing that much more to the game. It may just be that we're at the pinnacle of performance and we need a new technology or material to come in and change the game. I think it's a hard sell to if you're already an H3 owner.
I agree. I watched the Orvis (corporate) video that Trident emailed this morning and I have no doubt that the rod is evolutionary. However, how many of us can justify the added cost for an incremental improvement if we're not fishing at the extreme of the current H3. I think the remaining H3s in inventory will fly off the shelves today. While I appreciate that engineers don't think about the point of diminishing returns, those of us who write the check tend to be aware of that concept. I'm certain that other manufacturers are thrilled with the new Orvis pricing. Also, this new pricing opens the door for a hefty Recon price increase.
@@larryh9525 The Recon is the hidden gem in the lineup. From an action standpoint, I feel that it sits right between H3D and H3F. So for most angler's, it's almost a better choice if you're only going to own one 5wt or one 8wt.
@@chrism1157I owned one of the original Recons in 5wt and hated it. It was as thick in the blank as my 8wt Meridian and lackef feedback. I could punch a line a long way with concentration but I just didn't find it enjoyable to use. Sold it for a Hardy Zephrus which I felt was a much better rod.
Glad I picked up the 3s for $600. No hook keeper on these either which is always a nice option to have in the more premium rods imo.
Why would you even put an MPX on the F? Makes no sense, especially after saying it needed a true to line wt
The F review was very unfair.
We cast rods with the same line so that there's consistency across tests.
That "consistancy" will inevitably make some rods perform not to their true potential. A certain Rod may even shine beyond belief with the right match of line.
Some outfitters try several lines in order to find that match, something regular Joe can't do easily.
@@Tridentflyfishing irrational.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm
@@Tridentflyfishing
The white is absolutely for the label recognition. 100%
I casted a 7wt Helios D and a TFO Axiom II-X. I took home the Axiom II-X. It casted further (dumped the entire line) and more accurately for me. You even get recoil guides with the TFO. I don't like the single locking reel seat on the Helios, I prefer the double locking seat. For $1098? I'll pass.
The white has grown on me. I didnt like the two tone effect on this new series but it to seems classier the more and more I look at it.
"The H4F is more of a true to line weight rod."
Most fly lines on the market (according to my own over 300 measurements during the past 15 years) are not true to line weight, but violate AFFTA by underlabeling (more weight for the line than labeled on the package). So the new Helios H4F does not fit well with all these fly lines on the market. Is that what you are saying?
Kind regards
Bernd
I looked at 10 pages of promotion in the Orvis catalog that came today, and still couldn’t find the price. Guess I know what we are paying for.
I am glad those who can afford such rods have a good time fishing with them. Also glad my friends and I have fun fishing with our $100 combo rigs bought online. Either way it beats going to work!
The best thing aboute the new 4d is they are selling 3d with a big discount
AGREED! Makes that white label thing less of a problem in my mind. I’m finding the 3F/D right at $400 now. I’ll take that price all day long….sold.
👍😁
That white logo is atrocious… I’m sneaky glad they went back to it so I’m not tempted to buy one
🤭
Still no Hook Keeper?!
I don’t think much new tech went into this rod.I reckon it’s very close to the H3.If you want a classy,world class rod get the Scott Centric.There is little NOT to like about the Centric.
You haven’t had to deal with Scott’s service department have you?
no@@cameronenright9947 nope is it bad?
The Centric is by far the best rod I’ve used and is a thing of beauty
This orvis Rod costs 1600 dollars in sweden 😂😅
Nevermind Orvis...your new theme music is intense! Gets me jacked to go cast in the park!!
😂
If only they could get rid of that white paint color...
If Orvis would add cosmetic character like my beloved Scott Rods I believe they would have more people take a look. For this price there should not be a printed label covered in epoxy and the thread wraps should be done nicer as well. The rod has no soul. I’ve casted every Helios since the 1st and they are nice rods but lack fit and finish.
It's all marketing. The giveaway is claiming it's 4X more accurate than the last version.
Lost all give a shit when you did a review with wrong line while saying you knew it was wrong line
I'm always amazed at the reviewers who care what the rod looks like (the white). I care about performance and the white is just fine with me. I'm sure it's a marketing issue and bevis of the controversy it's working.
Well, the rod has to match your reel..so it matters :)
The White label sadly is a step back for Orvis, they seem to have forgotten performance is where it counts, not pandering to the "In Crowd" who spend more time talking about themselves, ie. what need is there for "The Cool Factor" fish don't bit on that ......
Why, oh why did they stick with that logo. It looks like something for the blind.😟🙁
Free Labrador with every rod!!😂
My first fly rod cost about $10. It cast for shit but I caught fish with it. After several years I saved enough money to buy a Fenwick fiberglass 6 wt. I think it was around $75. I used that rod for decades. Yeah, it was soft, but you could still cast a fly and fight a fish. Eventually, in my 40s I got a Sage XP. I held my nose and forked over $600. It's a great rod and I'm still using it. I'm in the market for a new trout rod and now I can actually afford just about anything. I know I'm just another old guy yelling at the computer, but, I just can't convince myself to spend $1,000-1,300 on a fly rod. I'll be buying something less expensive if I buy anything new at all.
And yeah, that white label is an abomination. It screams low self-esteem.
definitely not a fan of the white label
yeah makes you cast worse
I am proud to show the label on my rods
😅
I would never pay this much for a fly rod. But I do like the white section on the rod because it's like a big flag that says look at me I am a tool and I know not to talk to that person
I just brought 2 Hardy Zane Pros for 459.00 each 8 and 10wt from a UK dealer why would you pay 1259.00 in the UK for this rod. 1259.00 no way and i love my tackle
Overpriced junk, liked the H3s better and love the new Scott Session, especially at the lower price point
But is it 4X better than the H3? HAHAHA! Appreciate the review Ben
A fly rod is a tool. There are a lot of good ones out there there at various price points. I’m not against expensive rods. But one thing for sure is that buying an expensive rod will not make you a better or a more accurate caster. Only time and practice will do that. If you
Ike the look of a particular brand, and have the money, then by all means. Orvis makes a good rod but so does TFO and St. Croix (to name just two) and for a lot less money. Keep in mind that rods break and the Orvis guarantee is not as good as it once was.
check out the price on the new top of the line st.croix.
@@rhonda837 I was surprised by that. Didn't know that St. Croix has entered the luxury market. Appreciate the info. I believe you can still find a lower end St. Croix for a couple hundred bucks. Redington (same parent company as Sage) is another more affordable option. Both companies make good rods. No way I would personally bring my favorite fly rod (which happens to be an older Scott) along in my drift boat. IMHO expensive rods are for wade fishing only.
Every year it's the latest and greatest rod from 'x' brand. An expensive tool in the hands of a poor professional will never make that individual better at what they do. Own just about every $1k and up fly rod there is. I'll match a $200 Temple Fork against any of the expensive rods I own.
for $1100-$1200 id rather buy a Sage, Winston, Loomis or T&T. The white label is horrendous.
That’s why I’m hoping they bring the blue back asap
$1475 Canadian 😅 I’ll stick with my Scott centric
Why did you test the F model with the wrong line 🤣. Do the test again with the correct line.
I like to spend on Scott, Winston, etc, because they are real rod makers still around. They’re just using graphite instead of split-cane. Orvis screams machine made which I guess it has to be if replacement sections don’t need fitting.
$1,000 plus and no hook keeper? What'll be next to go... the alignment dots?
It's a Sean Combs thing......feels the lack of a hook keeper reduces breakages. I'm with you.....prefer the keeper
I own a couple Orvis rods imcluding the 3D but Im gonna say Im ashamed now to be an Orvis owner, this is just ridiculously expensive and not what flyfishing is supposed to be. I know its top shelf stuff but come on man its getting ridiculous. Im never getting this or any other Orvis rod ever again.
Prices getting out of control. I won't pay 10 dollars for a big mac and I'm not paying 1100 for a fly rod.
For that price, and no hook keeper? And, the Orvis excuse they give for eliminating that feature from their rods is lame. They claim it’s because it causes more broken rods. There is no more risk of that happening with a hook keeper, than hooking your fly up on the stripping guide, which is what you have to do when the hook keeper isn’t there. The other thing, is that the improvements over the Helios 3 are unlikely to be significant enough to change, if we already have some of the previous models. This is true for many of the other “new versions” of rods that I have tried over the last few years. But Ben, keep up on these reviews because they still help us learn.
It’s not called the Helios 4, it’s just Helios
Perhaps that suggests it may be the end of the line for the Helios
I like my maxcatch for $37, it casts very nicely
True love my maxcatch 9'7wt
Dear Ben, I appreciate your reviews especially those on tackle which is not reviewed by others, e.g. Hardy.
I also understand that testing different fly lines on a single rod multiplies the effort. However testing the Helios 4F with an DA MPX is useless and doesn’t provide me with the information I need to get a feeling for the rod‘s action.
You are the only fly rod reviewer using the moment of inertia to describe a rod‘s swing weight, in my eyes the best measure available for this task. Now, this objective measure is not mentioned ad it apparently doesn’t match Orvis marketing claim. Instead, the new grip on the Helios 4 makes the rod feel lighter. Yet another objective measure out of the window….
If buying fly rods is reduced to subjective measure, I couldn’t care less about such an ugly looking rod. I wonder what is left from „Made in the USA“… when Korean made rods have more soul those those from Vermont. I will never appear with a white banded rod on the water. You will recognize my rod when I hold it into the sun and you see the emerald green blank
The white label is just not appealing in any way shape or form... distractingly ugly. As for the price, I don't think there is a rod mad that is worth 1K or more. Having said that, I own 3 Scott Centric and 3 Sage rods, X & ESN, and all of those rods are right at the 1K mark. NONE are worth the $$$ paid. You just have to know that rods with a lifetime replacement guarantee, when purchased, you've paid for at least 2 rods and leaving the store with 1.
The white above the grip is so god damned pretentious.
It’s the Tesla of fly rods.
Look at me and how rich and awesome I am.
If I am spending 1000 bucks or more for a fly rod, which I won’t, it better look like a Porsche. That thing looks like a Yugo no class. No style. This latest and greatest bull crap is getting out of hand.
Haha, I love this
7 damn years....and they give us the same rod....EXACTLY the same rod as far as appearance. I'd imagine ANYONE who has a few H3's would want something to differentiate....big..BIG miss. I mean, they're just ugly and my time with the H3D left me with the feeling that it felt "cheap". These appear to suffer the same virus. Is Sean designing the aesthetics of these rods? If so, he needs help because if the 5 looks like this people will likely lose their shit.
I really like the look
ua-cam.com/video/OgaK1x1GtT4/v-deo.htmlsi=IW0U6ngixq1DsZAD
@@Blipp619no different then the iPhone
Ridiculously expensive!
This new rod has no value for customers, not even if the price was 800 usd. Great marketing price tag on the butt section but no thank you. 😂
The white label is the dumbest thing in modern fly fishing history. Don't wave it at large wild browns and not expect them to bugger off.
Nope. No angler anywhere in the world needs to spend this much money on a rod. I don't care what application.
Agree 1000% more than insane the brands goin that Way .
I agree. I don't understand why you should buy 1100,- $ rod to catch a fish 😂
Sage doesnt sell $200 dog beds. please dont compare them to Orvis.
😂😂😂😂😂
Buy 4 tfo rods instead
Can somebody please teach Orvis about pretty, they have no clue.
Sleazy salesman trying to sell an over priced fishing stick. What a sad way to earn a living.
They'll keep making these BS rods if you keep buying them.
These are made on mass not to order. Carbon in not as expensive as you think, nore are the resains. Why are these so expensive. Its because wages have gone up cost of living has also increased and there is a lot of good competition out there, even with rods coming from the middle east. How long can company's like Orvis, Sage and other American company's build in the USA before price,s get out of hand and become unaffordable. This is the way the industry is going as there is only a limited market for these top end rods. You only have to look at Hardy as all off there rods now come from Asia and they must be doing something right as there top end rods are selling as well as Orvis, Sage etc. food for thought shame we have to move aboard, but it will happen.