I finally watched this one today. Very interesting discussion. I've read Rough Stone Rolling, and very much appreciate Dr. Bushman's approach. Especially the early life I really felt like I got the idea of Joseph Smith as a real person in a real life situation. That was very good and interesting.
I first met Richard Bushman in 2006 the year celebrating the 200 year anniversary of Joseph Smith's birth in 2006 at Griffith University, Brisbane Australia. He spoke along side of Dr Davies from the UK. Dr Davies spoke and one local LDS leader asked why if Dr Davies studied LDS history and theology so much was he not converted. Dr Davies responded with a humourous comment. Bushman is famous for his particpation in a Dialogue Roundtable on the revival question in issue Spring 1969.. Reading footnotes in Rough Stone Rolling page 570 fn 30 Bushman seems to argue the plausibity that the Smith family joined the Presbyterian church in 1823-24 as the result of a revival rather than 1820. Wesley P Walters a Presbyterian pastor from Marissa Illinois argued that there was no revival in 1820 matching Smith's description but rather more so matched the one in 1823-24. That was what the Bushman/Walters Dialogue roundtable was about. Walter's submitted paper to Dialogue spurred LDS historians to go and search various archives etc in New York to get a better picture. Larry Porter LDS historian joked that when he was doing the research he was told Walters had already been there. Bushman was willing to use historians like Fawn Brodie and Walters and Dan Vogel in his biography showing that while they were critics they made useful contributions.
I'm curious Bartholomeu if you could share your take on him referring to Smith's gold plates as real vs. imaginary? If they're real, why would he say they flourish in the imagination? If they're not real, why would he suggest that plates are still being found in southern UT - which they are not btw. The double speak is very problematic and harmful for an LDS authority in his position.
I believe he is sincere in his beliefs but I have to disagree with his conclusions. I wonder if he believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints offers a valid baptism and sacrament today (D&C 13)? Or does Sydney Rigdon's church have that blessing?
Thanks I appreciate that. I have a real love for the people of the Restoration. I want them to know that I want to engage them where they are at. I love this journey that I am on. It is time to break down barriers and build bridges!
@@MormonBookReviews as a faithful Latter-day Saint, I would love to see more bridges built between ours and the evangelical community. With the number of people leaving Christianity (of every brand), I think that our communities could really help uplift each other with regards to our shared moral principles.
@@Ether-pb5gb Yes I agree. I think we can acknowledge our differences and still have civil discourse. Please like and subscribe! Tonight's episode is titled "An Evangelical and a Mormon Break Down Walls and Build Bridges"
Why hasn’t this host converted ? So if Joseph was not a false prophet who was Jesus was warning of when he warned of false prophets ? Im a former Baptist currently Atheist.
If you are currently an Atheist what would it matter what Jesus thought about false prophets? Just curious. The goal of my channel is to have civil dialogue between Evangelicals and the Restoration.
Brother Bushman I am forever grateful for the work you have done as an LDS historian to transcend the polished, correlated stories we all grew up on in Mormonism. At 22:21, and throughout the interview, you elaborate on the notion of physical, tangible golden plates. You state "The plates have flourished in the American imagination... There are still people finding plates in southern Utah...so it's very much alive. So I trace all this business...as sort of an exploration of the American imagination." Mr.Bushman can you provide a single credible instance of ancient Hebrews, or anyone for that matter, having recorded their history upon gold plates in the Americas? It is this seemingly playful game you persist in entertaining in the select, less than rigorous conversations you allow. There were real plates...but not really, they're just imagination... Well which is it sir? You of all people understand the damage the "dominant narrative" continues to inflicting upon LDS families who stumble upon verifiably true accounts of our heritage and doctrine. I agree that truth must be the foundation. At 26:19 you refer to Smith's purported interpreters of "magical qualities" as the Urim & Thummim. Yet you fully understand that term to be anachronistic, as it was retroactively introduced into in "the narrative" years later to distance the fact that Joseph relied solely upon his favored treasure digging seer stone to dictate the entire Book of Mormon we have today. My plea is to encourage you to rely upon your credibility within Mormon circles to speak clearly of that which you either believe or do not. Regardless of inconvenience, stand up for the history which is supported by historical records. Truth matters now more than ever; and as you've stated previously, the dominant narrative is not true, it cannot be sustained.
Interesting interview but absolutely don't agree with the assessment of Brodie's work. It was insightful and ground breaking; it was not a hagiography. I also find it alarming that Joseph Smith, and his predation on girls and women (including other mens wives) is apparently applauded as "human". The dismissal of abuse in this way is a hallmark of a patriarchal society.
We want to compare Joseph to Old Testament prophets and say he isn’t perfect……. Can you give me a Christian Bible source of a OT Prophet being commanded by God to marry multiple wives, other married woman, young children, or being destroyed? Or maybe the Masonic rituals confirming that today’s Mormon temple is what was practiced in the OT? Or OT prophets starting currency systems that fail after being commanded by God….or… OT prophets being commanded by God to create councils and annoint themselves kings N God of this dispensation? I just don’t think that’s a fair representation of OT prophets and their true faults…. They never tried saying God commanded them to practice polygamy, start failing banks/counterfeiting, or exalting themselves to the same level of God…
Read much? Check out Abraham, Jacob, Solomon.... all known polygamists. Oh and check out David (adulterer), Lots daughters (incest)... it goes on from there
Actually I didn't. For whatever reason comments that have links get deleted by UA-cam. I have it setup on my channel that allows links but they still get deleted. This has happened to many of my posters.
I finally watched this one today. Very interesting discussion. I've read Rough Stone Rolling, and very much appreciate Dr. Bushman's approach. Especially the early life I really felt like I got the idea of Joseph Smith as a real person in a real life situation. That was very good and interesting.
I have not seen something of this calibre in terms of getting great Mormon minds together for some time.
I first met Richard Bushman in 2006 the year celebrating the 200 year anniversary of Joseph Smith's birth in 2006 at Griffith University, Brisbane Australia. He spoke along side of Dr Davies from the UK. Dr Davies spoke and one local LDS leader asked why if Dr Davies studied LDS history and theology so much was he not converted. Dr Davies responded with a humourous comment. Bushman is famous for his particpation in a Dialogue Roundtable on the revival question in issue Spring 1969.. Reading footnotes in Rough Stone Rolling page 570 fn 30 Bushman seems to argue the plausibity that the Smith family joined the Presbyterian church in 1823-24 as the result of a revival rather than 1820. Wesley P Walters a Presbyterian pastor from Marissa Illinois argued that there was no revival in 1820 matching Smith's description but rather more so matched the one in 1823-24. That was what the Bushman/Walters Dialogue roundtable was about. Walter's submitted paper to Dialogue spurred LDS historians to go and search various archives etc in New York to get a better picture. Larry Porter LDS historian joked that when he was doing the research he was told Walters had already been there. Bushman was willing to use historians like Fawn Brodie and Walters and Dan Vogel in his biography showing that while they were critics they made useful contributions.
The sound is way off -- Steven is very loud and Richard very quiet. Any way to fix that?
I am so sorry about that. I had my microphone set too high. My bad.
The volume gets a little better later in the video
Love ya mr bushman. Keep up the good work on getting the story straight.
I'm curious Bartholomeu if you could share your take on him referring to Smith's gold plates as real vs. imaginary? If they're real, why would he say they flourish in the imagination? If they're not real, why would he suggest that plates are still being found in southern UT - which they are not btw. The double speak is very problematic and harmful for an LDS authority in his position.
I believe he is sincere in his beliefs but I have to disagree with his conclusions. I wonder if he believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints offers a valid baptism and sacrament today (D&C 13)? Or does Sydney Rigdon's church have that blessing?
Would you consider The Church of Jesus Christ to be Sydney Rigdon's church?
Steven, your comments and questions show that you know more about Mormonism than 50% of Mormons. Or do I mean 80%?
Thanks I appreciate that. I have a real love for the people of the Restoration. I want them to know that I want to engage them where they are at. I love this journey that I am on. It is time to break down barriers and build bridges!
Forgive me but I question your stats, but how did you come up with that average?
@@MormonBookReviews as a faithful Latter-day Saint, I would love to see more bridges built between ours and the evangelical community. With the number of people leaving Christianity (of every brand), I think that our communities could really help uplift each other with regards to our shared moral principles.
@@Ether-pb5gb Yes I agree. I think we can acknowledge our differences and still have civil discourse. Please like and subscribe! Tonight's episode is titled "An Evangelical and a Mormon Break Down Walls and Build Bridges"
@@MormonBookReviews alright, I subscribed because your a nice guy. I don't subscribe much, but I'll do it for you ;)
Why hasn’t this host converted ? So if Joseph was not a false prophet who was Jesus was warning of when he warned of false prophets ? Im a former Baptist currently Atheist.
If you are currently an Atheist what would it matter what Jesus thought about false prophets? Just curious. The goal of my channel is to have civil dialogue between Evangelicals and the Restoration.
Brother Bushman I am forever grateful for the work you have done as an LDS historian to transcend the polished, correlated stories we all grew up on in Mormonism.
At 22:21, and throughout the interview, you elaborate on the notion of physical, tangible golden plates. You state "The plates have flourished in the American imagination... There are still people finding plates in southern Utah...so it's very much alive. So I trace all this business...as sort of an exploration of the American imagination."
Mr.Bushman can you provide a single credible instance of ancient Hebrews, or anyone for that matter, having recorded their history upon gold plates in the Americas? It is this seemingly playful game you persist in entertaining in the select, less than rigorous conversations you allow. There were real plates...but not really, they're just imagination... Well which is it sir? You of all people understand the damage the "dominant narrative" continues to inflicting upon LDS families who stumble upon verifiably true accounts of our heritage and doctrine. I agree that truth must be the foundation.
At 26:19 you refer to Smith's purported interpreters of "magical qualities" as the Urim & Thummim. Yet you fully understand that term to be anachronistic, as it was retroactively introduced into in "the narrative" years later to distance the fact that Joseph relied solely upon his favored treasure digging seer stone to dictate the entire Book of Mormon we have today.
My plea is to encourage you to rely upon your credibility within Mormon circles to speak clearly of that which you either believe or do not. Regardless of inconvenience, stand up for the history which is supported by historical records. Truth matters now more than ever; and as you've stated previously, the dominant narrative is not true, it cannot be sustained.
Exactly! Thank you.
Interesting interview but absolutely don't agree with the assessment of Brodie's work. It was insightful and ground breaking; it was not a hagiography. I also find it alarming that Joseph Smith, and his predation on girls and women (including other mens wives) is apparently applauded as "human". The dismissal of abuse in this way is a hallmark of a patriarchal society.
Thanks for sharing that. I see your point about the"human" comment. Thank you for pointing it out.
We want to compare Joseph to Old Testament prophets and say he isn’t perfect……. Can you give me a Christian Bible source of a OT Prophet being commanded by God to marry multiple wives, other married woman, young children, or being destroyed? Or maybe the Masonic rituals confirming that today’s Mormon temple is what was practiced in the OT? Or OT prophets starting currency systems that fail after being commanded by God….or… OT prophets being commanded by God to create councils and annoint themselves kings N God of this dispensation?
I just don’t think that’s a fair representation of OT prophets and their true faults…. They never tried saying God commanded them to practice polygamy, start failing banks/counterfeiting, or exalting themselves to the same level of God…
Read much? Check out Abraham, Jacob, Solomon.... all known polygamists. Oh and check out David (adulterer), Lots daughters (incest)... it goes on from there
1 Samuel 12:8
OT example: Moses (two wives). Example of Mormon temple ordinances: Gnostics. Prophets and Apostles killed after their ministries: All of them.
You deleted my comments? why?
Actually I didn't. For whatever reason comments that have links get deleted by UA-cam. I have it setup on my channel that allows links but they still get deleted. This has happened to many of my posters.
@@MormonBookReviews OK thanks. I thought having the links to Bushman's articles would be helpful.
@@noelhausler2911 I wish that they could be posted. I do appreciate all of your feedback!
Brother Bushman getting old and looking tired. Thank you for all your work Brother Bushman!