Why Do We Need Sportsmanship in Wargaming?
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- In this video I ask do why do we need sportsmanship in wargaming?
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Agree wholeheartedly with the entire video :)
I think one of the things that sometimes get missed in the reasoning for sportsmanship in wargaming is that wargames are inherently a little "sloppy". Measuring the range of something can be tricky at times, especially if there are intervening models or pieces of terrain, games with TLOS can have arguments and the rules can be imprecise for certain situations. In other tournament games, including "sister" games like chess or board games, things are very precise. You can't have a disagreement in chess over whether something is in range or not and there's not going to be any disagreement whether you measured a move front to back.
Sports (and I'm talking about energetic ones like football, basketball etc) are always observed by a referee who will make a call on anything that's imprecise. Wargames don't have the luxury of a referee except in exceptional circumstances.
Therefore I believe that an element of sportsmanship should exist. You can argue to the end of the earth with every measurement, every LOS check and every move. It's not against the rules but doing so will frustrate your opponent to no end and ruin the event for them. We all accept that ultimately wargames relying on measurements and an element of subjectiveness require sportsmanship, even if it ultimately means you agree to disagree and put the disagreement down to a 4+ test.
P.S. I think I may be the guy you were talking about who started a thread about his sportsmanship. To clarify if it was me; I don't think I've got *bad* sportsmanship - I get average sports scores at events and I will get a vote (maybe two) for best sports at events that don't have sports scoring. What I want to do is to start knocking it out of the park and make my games extra enjoyable for my opponents :)
Hey Nick, thanks for the great reply. It was your message I’d see so thanks for the inspiration and apologies for misquoting your original post.
I found loads of examples where bad behaviour is punished (like sin bins and red cards) but nothing where sportsmanship was rewarded but I think your comments are 100% spot on.
I also have to give you huge kudos for looking for feedback (in what we know can be a tough audience) and I admire you wanting to take the enjoyment for your opponent to the next level 👍🏼
Ahh no need for an apology. I didn't make it clear in the original post (and perhaps it would be a bit arrogant for me to do so?) that I felt I had average sports. There was loads of great feedback and things to consider.
One of the points that stuck with me was not blaming your own mistakes for losing the game. I've certainly done that in the past but as soon as I read that comment it made sense to me. Equally with not blaming your own dice. A few little things that I wasn't consciously doing but definitely bits to improve on.
I'm definitely glad I started the thread!
It was a good thread and really constructive in the main.
Anything that gets people talking about trying to enjoy their games more and by a consequence their opponent enjoys the game more can only be a good thing.
I have never played a tournament but love tabletop from the social, crafting and bringing new players to a amazing rewarding hobby side of things. Sportsmanship and encouragment towards others is a vital part of the hobby that should not need to be writen in stone or blood but be expected from all as at the end of the day we do this for fun.
Hey Steve, I started off thinking that it shouldn't need to be there as it should just happen but I guess as we all come at this hobby from different entry points maybe its easier to be very up front about it.
I'm not interested in tournaments myself but I think rewarding sportsmanship is generally a good idea. Often competition can bring the worst out in some people.
Yeah sadly that seems too be the case. People who not see the result and forget to actually enjoy themselves! 👍🏼
Loved the video,
I like when sportsmanship gets its own prize/ award that does not affect scores for 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I play Tournies as a way to pay $20 odd dollars to get a full day of gaming in and my goal for the day is always to leave beaming with a smile (so far so good!). The only tournament I have ever not really enjoyed was one of the old Warmachine 'Hard Core' tournaments. They needed to the numbers to make it 'official' and so asked a bunch of us from the normal tourney the day before to play and whilst I had an okay time it was very different from the day before.
My opponents looked rather stressed due to the timed turns and added expectation of 'hard core' level play. I, and the others like me, were very much the odd ones out because we entered tournaments for a social gaming experience.
I know there could be an argument to say 'why not have seperate events for the social gamers' but I don't think many miniature wargaming scenes are big enough to cater for two seperate tournaments not do I think the more competitive players mind getting an easier first round! I think therefore that prizes for sportsmanship, painting, wooden spoon and other novelty categories are the compromise so that the different players feel catered for.
Great post Robbie. I’ve experienced the Warmachine Hardcore scene too and the first couple of games were really tough - then all us hopeless beggars were on the bottom tables drinking beer and eating donuts!
I do agree that they shouldn’t add to the overall prize for the day however.
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
That sounds like my kind of table! I'm the bloke that brings themed snacks to share!
Haha a man after my own heart!
Great chat mate, totally agree with your conclusions
Thanks Nick :)
Good video, it's all about the people participating. It reminds me of a couple of videos I uploaded recently, concerning toxicity in MMORPG communities. So while they are very different hobbies, as I watch your video, I do identify some parallels that hinder enjoyment and, in some ways, sportsmanship. What I talked about in one of those videos, on how to detoxify an MMORPG community, may apply to the wargaming community, in some ways.
Hi there, I watched your video last night after reading this and I agree theres some parallels. Its a shame that it exists but I think when you can be more anonymous behind a screen it leads to it being much worse than face to face in wargaming.
Thanks for watching and commenting :)
Great video. I’m going to my first tournament at the weekend and hoping for a more casual games rather than hard core. I do think sportsmanship should be a part of the game you can play competitive list and still do it in a friendly manner.
Thanks! I'm sure you'll have a great time and everyone will treat you well. Thankfully unsportsmanlike like behaviour isn't a huge problem which is why when it happens its normally highlighted. Have fun at the tournament and good luck!
Hear! Hear! "Don't be a dick!" should be rule #1 in every gaming tournament/ competition...! Full creds to that $5k donation from that player ( and GW matching it)...
Thats a rule for life not just for gaming! Yeah it was a nice gesture but wasn't needed. I'm not sure we'd be even talking about it the same way if he'd kept the money :)
Is it required, I don't think. Is it a nice thing to have to encourage good sportsmanship, then yes. Better to encourage than to punish for sure, like all others. When money is involved, for some, airs and graces go out the window. They will always exist no matter what. So yeah, I think there's a place for it in competitions but not a requirement.
Also, liking the new editing, getting to that news caster feeling where you'll start spinning to look at 'the other cameras' :)
Money has a funny habit of doing that!
Haha .... wait until I go all Ron Burgundy on you. Stay classy 👍🏼😂
Was going to comment but saw the Rams shirt. Oh man, I am just stumped for words. We da Boys all the way!!
So I need to lie down in a dark room and see if I can blot that shirt from my mind.
Good points BTW
How very dare you!! Next season is our year!
Ps. Cheers buddy 👍🏼
Unfortunately and it is a minority you have waac players now these type of players pick on new blood and their behaviours will turn a few players away from the hobby.
Now good sportsmanship(manners or etiquette) should generally be part of every day life. However, for some people it isn’t.
Yes good behaviour should be encouraged it shows the new players and those who might be interested we are a community that thrives on these principles and frowns upon poor etiquette maybe growing the community base because of it.
WAAC gamers are really where this sportsmanship etiquette is aimed at. its the "all costs" part that means they don't care about others enjoyment or perception of them as long as they win. I think its good that its encouraged. Thanks for watching and commenting :)
Great video
Thanks Joseph 👍🏼
Los Angels Rams, Would have been happier if It was an Arsenal shirt ( : That being said Tony was in the Wrong he took over an Hour on his turn Rushed his opponent then wouldn't let him correct his mistake even though he helped him measure. I was so glad that in the next round he got Shafted in the same way. I'd waited for that dude in the parking lot and gave him a good old scolding like my mom used to when I peed on the toilet seat.
At least it’s the same owner!!
Yeah that’s why I said there was more to it but the outcome was the same. He definitely did get his karma quickly!
Haha I have an image in my head I can’t get out now!!! Lol
LOL Sorry! Well at least he's willing to Change the coach at the Rams.......
.....and what an inspired choice that was. Wengers days must be nearing the end now surely!?!
We can only hope, Wenger and Arsenal fans is the prime example of Stockholm syndrome.
I do feel for you but I’m a Sunderland fan ...... so in reality I’m jealous. I’d love to be moaning about all those top 5 finishes!! 😂😂
Didn't the dick opponent trick the nice guy in it doing the deep strike before he set up. I'm sure that's what I heard. So on this occasion we shouldn't be a dick. But in general when we play we want to win
I'm not 100% sure he tricked him but there was some chat that he helped him setup and didn't tell him the mistake. It wasn't against the rules as such but was definitely a little shady!
I'm not sure everyone does 100% play to win and thats the point I'm making really. Some just want to play for the narrative to play out in their head and sometimes tournaments are the only option to get multiple games played against new armies or opponents.
BlackJack Legacy yeah one of the 1st people who posted about this said he basically advised him to deep strike before he'd finished his movement phase. So technically it wasn't illegal what he did just down right evil. It's like me saying to a Tau player advance with your whole army you'll get closer to kill me. Knowing he can't shoot. It's just dirty tactics and I'll be honest I probably would have slapped him after the event.
Yeah I guess the lure of a $4,000 prize maybe made him a little ruthless! From what I understand he got his taste of karma in the final when something similar happened to him and the judges wouldn't allow him a take back. He ended up getting beaten.