Yea, I set all my rear timing and levels by ear. Then check with an rta on rew. Cool to learn what some of this called after years of using it. Another great breakfast Raw ❤
Excellent video. You explained in 15 minutes what I've spent months reading about, and even gave more information. I've tried rear fill in different configurations using the rear doors. It didn't work very well for me. Maybe because of the location of the speakers or maybe because of tonal differences between the rear and front speakers. Sometimes it sounded nice and sometimes it made things sound a little weird. I want to try it again usin full range 4" speakers at the rear deck.
Great video! I love that you referenced the psychoacoustics and the science behind it. As someone who mixes live sound in venues and understands the design in those systems its pretty cool to see some things translate into car audio. I guess this topic is closer to the home theater systems where you might add room information using the surround speakers. Very cool stuff!
Yes, very similar, however in a home theatre surround and other speakers are using dedicated signals from a processor such as Atmos. In a car we don't have the option but to fake it with a simple stereo signal.
@@RAW-CAt I'm surprised more car DSPs aren't integrating the similar DSP techniques that are found in AVRs that simulate a room. I know some cars have center speakers, so you could easily set up a 5.1 surround system and use some processing to simulate rooms (like Dolby Pro Logic etc)
@@Gershy13 probably no one sees the need of it as the main media being played in a car is stereo music 🤷 Alpine had some surround processors in the 2000s. Now days we have only a few DSPs upscaling to have a center channel, but that is pretty much it.
@@RAW-CAt I was referring to the DSP upsampling stereo to surround music (like simulating being in a large hall that some receivers do). But yes I guess it is too niche of a market.
@@RAW-CAt Just as a bit of added trivia, Jim Fosgate of Rockford-Fosgate fame lead the development team at Dolby Labs that was responsible for creating Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 surround sound. Jim received an American EMMY award for this. The original Alpine F#1 STATUS processor was probably the first "seriouss" car audio DSP to incorporate legit multi-channel surround sound. It used a FireWire 1394b computer cable/interface to support the additional bandwidth needed for the multi-channel surround, whereas we have HDMI now. And JBL's auto-tuning MS8 processor used Logic 7 processing. "Differential" Rear Fill can create some unusual or odd & undesirable effects when playing sertain tracks or music that was mixed using unique techniques or mixing tricks to add/create spatial effects to standard 2-channel stereo music. One example is "background singers" in a mix which end up coming only from the REAR speakers instead of being perceived as wide & deep in the front stage. For this reason, I use "standard stereo" Rear Fill, which is also delayed and barely perceptible in level, in order to add the "room ambiance". If I don't want to use it when playing certain music, or if there are passengers in the rear where this delayed signal would sound annoying, I simply use the Front/Rear Fader control set to the front only, or switch to another DSP preset that's set up for normal for speaker front and rear stereo. Andy Wehmeyer of Audiofrog who was involved in the original JBL MS-8 DSP development project also suggests using this type of delayed and reduced level "standard stereo rear fill" as opposed to Differential Rear Fill.
I've been running rear fill exactly like you described ever since I started in car audio in the late 80's: barely there! I do rear fill *because* I go to a lot of live shows. I attend probably 3 or 4 major concerts per year, and I'm listening to a live band in a bar at least twice a month.
Before I added my 3"s in the a pillars i was running two of my amp channels to my rear speakers and really enjoyed the differential rear fill setup. I've been contemplating buying an amp with 2 more channels just so I can get the rear fill back. If I do I'm planning on fitting another pair of Faitals in my C pillars.
@@RAW-CAtthis video mate was so informative ❤ it's so good timing 😂 I just solving this in mine and I do prefer front stage too 🤲👍 Thanks for this video it was truly detailed
Thanks. Will try the differential rear fill but what I do is use the same signal as front but level lower by 6-8db. It helps fill up the problem areas around 140-180hz in the front and also doesn’t spoil the front image if one can play well with both the TA and levels. This augments the midbass which when blended with the sub sounds good to my ears. If you can then do try but agree it’s all personal preferences
My DSP only has 8 channels, so obviously proper rear fill is out of the question; I'm also not a big fan either. But, to still add a little extra to the system, I've been thinking about making simple door pods and running them mono for a doors open, PA style thing for shows or get-togethers.
I know that not every seating location can't be made happy in car audio. But if you have most of the time family travelling along you in the car, then a 2 seat tune with a combination of rear is a must, to make the system sound more than acceptable. When someone just travels alone then it's subjective on rear fill.
Correct. My tuning videos (and SQ in general) are focusing on a single seat tune. We are installing DSPs, and tune systems with RTA to get the most out of a system, not to make it sound more acceptable for people in the back.
@@RAW-CAtWould be an interesting video topic on how to tune for the best sound in all seats. There will be compromises, but could be worth doing and saving to another profile when you have lots of people and want to enjoy the music together (such as a road trip)
I always thought its nice to make the front stage cover all the mids and highs, while crossing the rear speakers to make them play the bass but im weird I guess. THank you for the explanation of the rear fill though, it gives us a wider perspective at what we do and certainly gives things to consider. now im wondering if I should shift the stage to the front like you said, because I always was obsessed with centering everything, not to mention the underseat sub which only purpose is to help feel the music xD
If your DPS doesn't do differential, you can wire your rear speakers in a Hafler circuit, and get similar results. Wire each Positive from the amp to the positives of each speaker terminal as normal. Then wire the negative of the left speaker terminal to the negative of the right speaker terminal. Basically, just pull the negative speaker wires from the amp on the rear channels and twist them together.
You late. I didn't get to listen to this on the way to work, lol. Keep it up. i enjoy every bit of this. It would be nice if you could get the jeb tuning companion to include your curve or a quick video on how to properly save a new curve so that the excel sheet will load it. I've been having to open your video just to copy the curve. Gonna try your curve then ItsonlyaHONDA's basshead curve on separate presets. Only difference really is Hondas curve has that high bottom end flat plateau from 150ish and down.
I really appreciate the work you do and how you explain everything I learned a lot with my DSP now and you got me sounding great with out the tool.. i have ds18 6.5 loudspeaker with a built-in bullet tweeter that has a bass blocker on it.. I change the polarity to them from the dsp will that hurt the tweeter then?
One of the best channels for car audio, Respect man. Can you explain the rear differential fill. I use an Audison Forza DSP/Amp because it is not clear by professional people 😕. Please explain that I would love to try it. Thanks by the way
It all has to do with the signal routing and the type of effect it will give you. www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/how-to-rear-fill-with-helix-dsp.307730/
I have a question so why so car manufacturers use surround sound in the car and make it aound good. Ive always wnated to try and get a surround sound tune with my car but still have really good SQ. But atill have a front stage actual SQ tune. My question is how would you tune for surround sound if thats what you wanted ?
Factory systems use some all pass filters and almost always have a center channel. It is a huge compromise, as it's impossible to fight physics. With an aftermarket system just remove the time alignment, levels and EQ and let it all loose.
Is true mono rear fill useful? Can you use an 8-channel DSP for an active 2-way front stage with active center channel (true processing), differential rear fill, and a subwoofer channel?
Question. (Almost off topic) as for those rear door locations. My car has those also. In very front bottom of rear door. I want to run a 3 way type setup up front but don't have room. Tweets on front pillars aimed much like yours. Mids are in doors angled as much as possible( not firing side to side). What happens if I put the 8" mid bass in the rear door and cross it over at say 90 or 100? Oh, the front is Boston Acoustics PRO 6.0 SE set. Midbass is Dayton Audio reference 8. Thanks
@@RAW-CAt so if I keep the 8s xover low I shouldn't be able to hear their location? I'm ol school and am still trying to learn. DSPs and focusing the sound is new to me.
Just so I have this straight, I can run differential rear fill with one DSP output and one channel of amplification? I should use left and right signal on DSP channel mixer, and swap polarity on one of the rear fill speakers?
How would you tune rear speakers if you would like to rear passengers enjoy music as much as possible and not ruin your front stage at the same time? I have 3way front, 2 way back + SUB.
When you put the real fill at 10-12db down that must affect the overall freq a bit. Do you account for that in the sum of the freq response? Great video
@@RAW-CAt ok I have my system setup where the rear fill does add a bit more mid bass. But it does not affect the sounds state too much. Yes it does pull it a touch back, but adds more of a 3d effect. Just was curious. I need to experiment more with this. I do have a Matchup8 BMW unit, so your videos are highly helpful in my setup work. Audiotecfisher should pay you for these since they don’t offer hardly anything in terms of a user manual or online tutorials for their products. Which is too bad. Thanks so so much !
What I've done is, I control the rear speakers (coaxial) within DSP, and all speakers time aligned to a driver listening position (including subwoofer in very back). Is it correct?
@@RAW-CAt Okay I'll try to delay more the rear speakers 10-12ms for comparison. Do you think should I decrease the level more of rear speakers? Thanks for your input.
@@dudycemed790 if all speakers are time aligned do try to start with bringing the level for the rear down to zero and then start increasing it in steps and stop at the point where the front image starts getting pulled back. I have found this to be the best balance in filling up the holes in the frequency response with the front speakers in the doors while ensuring the overall experience is good. I haven't tried the differential fill which I will but do comment back if you do decide to play with the levels as mentioned
I'm dead against rear fill. As an audiophile I would never fit rear speakers in my room (or know anyone who would) and the same is true in the car. Staging and imaging are from the front and even in the rear of a car your are still VERY near the front unless the car is absolutely massive like a 7 series or something like a limo. In a small compact car, don't waste money on rear fill. Just use whatever is stock and set it at a very low level or turn it off totally. In my car (Golf) I disconnected the rear tweeters totally.
Staging and imaging are certainly from the front, and if you were to attend an amplified concert sitting in the front row, the venue would likely not play much role in what you hear. Sitting further back, especially for an acoustic concert such as a symphony performance, the venue becomes part of the auditory experience. Replicating that experience in the narrow confines of a vehicle is where additional speakers can be used to trick the ears into thinking you are in a bigger space. If you don't experiment with it, you don't know what you are missing, you can live happily in your ignorance. However, having someone let you sit in their car, listen to a song, then turn on properly tuned rear-fill, it will likely change your mind. This video mentions some of the techniques but does not offer a complete solution. I agree you need to stay away from midbass and below, any speaker capabile of low distortion with 5 watts is fine, but you also don't want a lot of high freq content either. 300Hz to 3KHz with the correct delay expands the sound stage without pulling it back.
All this assuming car sound at 120km/h is deadened to 65-67dba, and not 75-77dba :p Before I deadened and put low noise tires on my old car it that bad :)
You're high passing the rear speakers that high because you don't know how to couple them correctly with the front woofers and speakers. That's too much delay on the rears...that's why they don't work well when you let them play lower. If you couple them correctly with the front you will have an increase in midbass. You are right on the level decrease to make sure they don't interfere with the front vocals, but you need to learn how to blend rears better. Every car I turn out has phenomenal mid bass coupling, tight midbass, and rears are high passed the same as the fronts...And the rears always compliment the fronts to get an increase in midbass output, without them interfering with the fronts in a bad way. Other than that, great videos!
That is very interesting. My approach is that you should get all the midbass from the front woofers. If you don't have enough, you might not tune the fronts correctly. Phase aligning 5 drivers (4 doors +sub) is much more difficult than 3. I explained the delay on the rears and why it is needed. This video is about rear fill as an effect to add atmosphere in a single seat tune. Not sure, but I think you missed that point. I also explained your approach and why it is not correct for the goal that we need rear fill to do. Please watch the video again to understand what rear fill should do. In your setup you are effectively playing same content from 4 different locations and it will be impossible to have correct center image. And no, it doesn't matter what you think, this is physics not opinions. How to "couple" or align drivers correctly I have explained in my previous videos where I was talking about targets, time and phase alignment using impulse response. So yeah... I know how to "couple" woofers correctly.
@@RAW-CAt LoL you say that if the crossover points are the same front and rear, the front will not and cannot have a center image? That is not true sir. Please do not pass off your inexperience by telling me it's physics and facts that something cannot happen, just because you cannot figure it out. You just have to implement them correctly, with the correct level and correct delay. I do car audio sound processing for a living, and am an expert in this. I understand the point of your rear fill video plenty. I agree with rear fill, customers love rear speakers, and always want them playing. Also, up front midbass comes from the coupling of the subwoofers and ALL speakers together. If they're not timed right they will not work together right. And yes phase does play a role in that of course. When you say things like "you might not be tuning the fronts correctly" it's interesting to me because you cannot rely on the front woofers output alone to give you midbass in the system...they need to be coupled/blended correctly with the rears and sub. Then you will get all your order hermonics. Additional equalization is necessary a lot of times to tighten up the bass response. Can't tell you how many times I've re-tuned and fixed DSP Tunes from other stores or customer Tunes that learned off the Internet. Pleasing the meter as they call it, usually never works out, and never gets you tight actuate bass. Nor does anyone on the Internet know how to blend rears correctly, so they high pass them so high they're not even part of the system anymore, and they're not giving the customer what they paid for (rear speakers that are capable of playing midbass to help with the front) I write a lot about this because this is lost on most people, and also am told it's an opinion and not facts LoL! I'm here to help, reach out if you have questions.
This is the kind of content we needed. Informative, simplistic, and gets right to the point. Doesn’t get much better than this imo. Keep working bro
Most people just say: rear speaker bad, disconnect. You actually explain it and give options, awesome.
People kept telling me to take my rears out as well smh
Automatic click! This is freaking awesome. He knows his stuff.
This has been one of those subjects that were giving me hard time to grasp and understand but your video has made it very understandable. 👍🏾
Yea, I set all my rear timing and levels by ear. Then check with an rta on rew. Cool to learn what some of this called after years of using it. Another great breakfast Raw ❤
Was looking and not finding someone to explain rear fill. Thank you very much for this. Audio level just went up
Excellent video. You explained in 15 minutes what I've spent months reading about, and even gave more information.
I've tried rear fill in different configurations using the rear doors. It didn't work very well for me. Maybe because of the location of the speakers or maybe because of tonal differences between the rear and front speakers. Sometimes it sounded nice and sometimes it made things sound a little weird. I want to try it again usin full range 4" speakers at the rear deck.
Great video! I love that you referenced the psychoacoustics and the science behind it. As someone who mixes live sound in venues and understands the design in those systems its pretty cool to see some things translate into car audio. I guess this topic is closer to the home theater systems where you might add room information using the surround speakers. Very cool stuff!
Yes, very similar, however in a home theatre surround and other speakers are using dedicated signals from a processor such as Atmos. In a car we don't have the option but to fake it with a simple stereo signal.
@@RAW-CAt I'm surprised more car DSPs aren't integrating the similar DSP techniques that are found in AVRs that simulate a room. I know some cars have center speakers, so you could easily set up a 5.1 surround system and use some processing to simulate rooms (like Dolby Pro Logic etc)
@@Gershy13 probably no one sees the need of it as the main media being played in a car is stereo music 🤷 Alpine had some surround processors in the 2000s. Now days we have only a few DSPs upscaling to have a center channel, but that is pretty much it.
@@RAW-CAt I was referring to the DSP upsampling stereo to surround music (like simulating being in a large hall that some receivers do). But yes I guess it is too niche of a market.
@@RAW-CAt
Just as a bit of added trivia, Jim Fosgate of Rockford-Fosgate fame lead the development team at Dolby Labs that was responsible for creating Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 surround sound. Jim received an American EMMY award for this.
The original Alpine F#1 STATUS processor was probably the first "seriouss" car audio DSP to incorporate legit multi-channel surround sound. It used a FireWire 1394b computer cable/interface to support the additional bandwidth needed for the multi-channel surround, whereas we have HDMI now.
And JBL's auto-tuning MS8 processor used Logic 7 processing.
"Differential" Rear Fill can create some unusual or odd & undesirable effects when playing sertain tracks or music that was mixed using unique techniques or mixing tricks to add/create spatial effects to standard 2-channel stereo music.
One example is "background singers" in a mix which end up coming only from the REAR speakers instead of being perceived as wide & deep in the front stage.
For this reason, I use "standard stereo" Rear Fill, which is also delayed and barely perceptible in level, in order to add the "room ambiance".
If I don't want to use it when playing certain music, or if there are passengers in the rear where this delayed signal would sound annoying, I simply use the Front/Rear Fader control set to the front only, or switch to another DSP preset that's set up for normal for speaker front and rear stereo.
Andy Wehmeyer of Audiofrog who was involved in the original JBL MS-8 DSP development project also suggests using this type of delayed and reduced level "standard stereo rear fill" as opposed to Differential Rear Fill.
I've been running rear fill exactly like you described ever since I started in car audio in the late 80's: barely there!
I do rear fill *because* I go to a lot of live shows. I attend probably 3 or 4 major concerts per year, and I'm listening to a live band in a bar at least twice a month.
learned something new. Thanks for sharing!
Never clicked so fast on a video
Yup! me neither 😮
😂😂😂
Before I added my 3"s in the a pillars i was running two of my amp channels to my rear speakers and really enjoyed the differential rear fill setup. I've been contemplating buying an amp with 2 more channels just so I can get the rear fill back. If I do I'm planning on fitting another pair of Faitals in my C pillars.
Just get a tiny old school 2ch amp😉
@@RAW-CAtthis video mate was so informative ❤ it's so good timing 😂 I just solving this in mine and I do prefer front stage too 🤲👍
Thanks for this video it was truly detailed
Dang, I just asked you the question last week. Thanks for answering prior to your video.
Wow. In every Video i still learn Something new. Awesome👍
Great video as always!
Man that was so informative love it 🙏🙏🙏
Thanks. Will try the differential rear fill but what I do is use the same signal as front but level lower by 6-8db. It helps fill up the problem areas around 140-180hz in the front and also doesn’t spoil the front image if one can play well with both the TA and levels. This augments the midbass which when blended with the sub sounds good to my ears. If you can then do try but agree it’s all personal preferences
💯
Brilliant explanation 👍
Very nice video!
My DSP only has 8 channels, so obviously proper rear fill is out of the question; I'm also not a big fan either. But, to still add a little extra to the system, I've been thinking about making simple door pods and running them mono for a doors open, PA style thing for shows or get-togethers.
Im thinking the same PA thing. But with 8 channel we need some relay to switch speakers when we change preset.
You could do it if you ran a 2-way front stage.
I know that not every seating location can't be made happy in car audio.
But if you have most of the time family travelling along you in the car, then a 2 seat tune with a combination of rear is a must, to make the system sound more than acceptable.
When someone just travels alone then it's subjective on rear fill.
Correct. My tuning videos (and SQ in general) are focusing on a single seat tune. We are installing DSPs, and tune systems with RTA to get the most out of a system, not to make it sound more acceptable for people in the back.
@@RAW-CAtWould be an interesting video topic on how to tune for the best sound in all seats. There will be compromises, but could be worth doing and saving to another profile when you have lots of people and want to enjoy the music together (such as a road trip)
@@Gershy13 no EQ and no TA. Just let it all loose. But a video about 2 seat tune is coming out on sunday.
this method of rear fill wouldn't sound good at all for rear passengers if that's the goal.
Bravo!
I always thought its nice to make the front stage cover all the mids and highs, while crossing the rear speakers to make them play the bass but im weird I guess. THank you for the explanation of the rear fill though, it gives us a wider perspective at what we do and certainly gives things to consider.
now im wondering if I should shift the stage to the front like you said, because I always was obsessed with centering everything, not to mention the underseat sub which only purpose is to help feel the music xD
You can do a differential L-R rear fill , combined with long delay (20ms) which can add to stage depth
If your DPS doesn't do differential, you can wire your rear speakers in a Hafler circuit, and get similar results. Wire each Positive from the amp to the positives of each speaker terminal as normal. Then wire the negative of the left speaker terminal to the negative of the right speaker terminal. Basically, just pull the negative speaker wires from the amp on the rear channels and twist them together.
You late. I didn't get to listen to this on the way to work, lol.
Keep it up. i enjoy every bit of this. It would be nice if you could get the jeb tuning companion to include your curve or a quick video on how to properly save a new curve so that the excel sheet will load it. I've been having to open your video just to copy the curve. Gonna try your curve then ItsonlyaHONDA's basshead curve on separate presets. Only difference really is Hondas curve has that high bottom end flat plateau from 150ish and down.
How about the rear fill would help the volume in the rear passenger
My focus is a single seat tune for the driver.
I really appreciate the work you do and how you explain everything I learned a lot with my DSP now and you got me sounding great with out the tool.. i have ds18 6.5 loudspeaker with a built-in bullet tweeter that has a bass blocker on it.. I change the polarity to them from the dsp will that hurt the tweeter then?
No, it will not damage anything, it will just affect the sound.
@@RAW-CAt thanks
One of the best channels for car audio, Respect man. Can you explain the rear differential fill. I use an Audison Forza DSP/Amp because it is not clear by professional people 😕.
Please explain that I would love to try it.
Thanks by the way
It all has to do with the signal routing and the type of effect it will give you.
www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/how-to-rear-fill-with-helix-dsp.307730/
I have tried rear fill option in mosconi amp/dsp, but it leaned sound stage to left. Disabled it after 10 minutes.
I have a question so why so car manufacturers use surround sound in the car and make it aound good. Ive always wnated to try and get a surround sound tune with my car but still have really good SQ. But atill have a front stage actual SQ tune. My question is how would you tune for surround sound if thats what you wanted ?
Factory systems use some all pass filters and almost always have a center channel. It is a huge compromise, as it's impossible to fight physics. With an aftermarket system just remove the time alignment, levels and EQ and let it all loose.
Aaaand back to garage.
😂😂😂
Is true mono rear fill useful? Can you use an 8-channel DSP for an active 2-way front stage with active center channel (true processing), differential rear fill, and a subwoofer channel?
No, you need 10 channels for that.
@@RAW-CAt What's eating up the channels? Does the center require a 2-way component? No way the sub-channel actually needs left and right...
@@Drunken_Hamster oh, you ment 2way front🤦 Yeah, 8 channels then.
I’m confused about what channels to use for rear fill. Would it be fronts or rear or rear surround or just left and right summed?
Try all three options and see which one you like the most.
Question. (Almost off topic) as for those rear door locations. My car has those also. In very front bottom of rear door. I want to run a 3 way type setup up front but don't have room. Tweets on front pillars aimed much like yours. Mids are in doors angled as much as possible( not firing side to side). What happens if I put the 8" mid bass in the rear door and cross it over at say 90 or 100?
Oh, the front is Boston Acoustics PRO 6.0 SE set. Midbass is Dayton Audio reference 8.
Thanks
It might work. It depends what kind of response you have from the rear doors.
@@RAW-CAt so if I keep the 8s xover low I shouldn't be able to hear their location? I'm ol school and am still trying to learn. DSPs and focusing the sound is new to me.
@@roughboygarage1475 assuming there are no major rattles, should be fine.
Do do you use speakers in those location at all?
Just so I have this straight, I can run differential rear fill with one DSP output and one channel of amplification? I should use left and right signal on DSP channel mixer, and swap polarity on one of the rear fill speakers?
For differential you need two active channels. With one channels you can run only mono.
How would you tune rear speakers if you would like to rear passengers enjoy music as much as possible and not ruin your front stage at the same time? I have 3way front, 2 way back + SUB.
No eq, no delay, no levels🤷
that s what she said
When you put the real fill at 10-12db down that must affect the overall freq a bit. Do you account for that in the sum of the freq response?
Great video
At that point you don't look at the RTA or how the response changes. This is an effect for pleasure, not precision.
@@RAW-CAt ok I have my system setup where the rear fill does add a bit more mid bass. But it does not affect the sounds state too much. Yes it does pull it a touch back, but adds more of a 3d effect.
Just was curious.
I need to experiment more with this.
I do have a Matchup8 BMW unit, so your videos are highly helpful in my setup work.
Audiotecfisher should pay you for these since they don’t offer hardly anything in terms of a user manual or online tutorials for their products. Which is too bad.
Thanks so so much !
What I've done is, I control the rear speakers (coaxial) within DSP, and all speakers time aligned to a driver listening position (including subwoofer in very back). Is it correct?
If you time align all your drivers to the same point, your image will be pulled back and it's not gonna be in front of you.
@@RAW-CAt Okay I'll try to delay more the rear speakers 10-12ms for comparison. Do you think should I decrease the level more of rear speakers?
Thanks for your input.
@@dudycemed790 I made the video specifically so that I wouldn't have to answer any of these questions... Yes, decrease the level as well.
@@dudycemed790 if all speakers are time aligned do try to start with bringing the level for the rear down to zero and then start increasing it in steps and stop at the point where the front image starts getting pulled back. I have found this to be the best balance in filling up the holes in the frequency response with the front speakers in the doors while ensuring the overall experience is good. I haven't tried the differential fill which I will but do comment back if you do decide to play with the levels as mentioned
@@RAW-CAt Got it. Thanks again.
Delay 10-12ms compared to what?
Compared to the front
My left ear is 50dB below my right ear according to my audiologist. Maybe I need a DSP.
Sorry to hear that. It looks like your levels should be set in a very unconventional way.
I'm dead against rear fill. As an audiophile I would never fit rear speakers in my room (or know anyone who would) and the same is true in the car. Staging and imaging are from the front and even in the rear of a car your are still VERY near the front unless the car is absolutely massive like a 7 series or something like a limo. In a small compact car, don't waste money on rear fill. Just use whatever is stock and set it at a very low level or turn it off totally. In my car (Golf) I disconnected the rear tweeters totally.
I'm with you on this👍
Staging and imaging are certainly from the front, and if you were to attend an amplified concert sitting in the front row, the venue would likely not play much role in what you hear. Sitting further back, especially for an acoustic concert such as a symphony performance, the venue becomes part of the auditory experience. Replicating that experience in the narrow confines of a vehicle is where additional speakers can be used to trick the ears into thinking you are in a bigger space. If you don't experiment with it, you don't know what you are missing, you can live happily in your ignorance. However, having someone let you sit in their car, listen to a song, then turn on properly tuned rear-fill, it will likely change your mind. This video mentions some of the techniques but does not offer a complete solution. I agree you need to stay away from midbass and below, any speaker capabile of low distortion with 5 watts is fine, but you also don't want a lot of high freq content either. 300Hz to 3KHz with the correct delay expands the sound stage without pulling it back.
Reflected sound is what you want to avoid… why do you want to create your own? Gr M
To add atmosphere and room information. Some people want that.
All this assuming car sound at 120km/h is deadened to 65-67dba, and not 75-77dba :p
Before I deadened and put low noise tires on my old car it that bad :)
All this theory and rear fill techniques have nothing to do with the amount of deadener that is in the vehicle.
You're high passing the rear speakers that high because you don't know how to couple them correctly with the front woofers and speakers. That's too much delay on the rears...that's why they don't work well when you let them play lower. If you couple them correctly with the front you will have an increase in midbass. You are right on the level decrease to make sure they don't interfere with the front vocals, but you need to learn how to blend rears better. Every car I turn out has phenomenal mid bass coupling, tight midbass, and rears are high passed the same as the fronts...And the rears always compliment the fronts to get an increase in midbass output, without them interfering with the fronts in a bad way.
Other than that, great videos!
That is very interesting. My approach is that you should get all the midbass from the front woofers. If you don't have enough, you might not tune the fronts correctly. Phase aligning 5 drivers (4 doors +sub) is much more difficult than 3.
I explained the delay on the rears and why it is needed. This video is about rear fill as an effect to add atmosphere in a single seat tune. Not sure, but I think you missed that point. I also explained your approach and why it is not correct for the goal that we need rear fill to do. Please watch the video again to understand what rear fill should do. In your setup you are effectively playing same content from 4 different locations and it will be impossible to have correct center image. And no, it doesn't matter what you think, this is physics not opinions.
How to "couple" or align drivers correctly I have explained in my previous videos where I was talking about targets, time and phase alignment using impulse response. So yeah... I know how to "couple" woofers correctly.
@@RAW-CAt LoL you say that if the crossover points are the same front and rear, the front will not and cannot have a center image? That is not true sir. Please do not pass off your inexperience by telling me it's physics and facts that something cannot happen, just because you cannot figure it out. You just have to implement them correctly, with the correct level and correct delay. I do car audio sound processing for a living, and am an expert in this. I understand the point of your rear fill video plenty. I agree with rear fill, customers love rear speakers, and always want them playing.
Also, up front midbass comes from the coupling of the subwoofers and ALL speakers together. If they're not timed right they will not work together right. And yes phase does play a role in that of course. When you say things like "you might not be tuning the fronts correctly" it's interesting to me because you cannot rely on the front woofers output alone to give you midbass in the system...they need to be coupled/blended correctly with the rears and sub. Then you will get all your order hermonics. Additional equalization is necessary a lot of times to tighten up the bass response.
Can't tell you how many times I've re-tuned and fixed DSP Tunes from other stores or customer Tunes that learned off the Internet. Pleasing the meter as they call it, usually never works out, and never gets you tight actuate bass. Nor does anyone on the Internet know how to blend rears correctly, so they high pass them so high they're not even part of the system anymore, and they're not giving the customer what they paid for (rear speakers that are capable of playing midbass to help with the front)
I write a lot about this because this is lost on most people, and also am told it's an opinion and not facts LoL!
I'm here to help, reach out if you have questions.
I'll try, love your videos Nerijus! 🫶