SAD MAX: A Max Payne Trilogy Retrospective
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- Опубліковано 20 лис 2024
- This is a full-spoiler critique and retrospective of Max Payne 1 and 2 by Remedy Games and also Rockstar's climactic Max Payne 3. It looks closely at how each game treats Max as a person, from archetype, to abstract metaphor, to cautionary tale. It looks at how the different design priorities tease out different Maxes who still, somehow, connect along a single arc of character.
__TABLE OF CONTENTS__
Max Payne 1-- 00:24
Max Payne 2-- 19:42
Max Payne 3-- 38:38
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/ noahcaldwellgervais
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“Max doesn’t get better at killing. He starts good at it and he isn’t even sober.”
LMFAO.
I first played Max Payne when I was 14 and took it UTTERLY seriously. I thought the reason for all the characters smiling all the time was because they were deranged, not because they were the developers’ friends goofing around.
When I was a kid, this was the coolest game series in the world to me. My friends were all rambling about Halo and I just cared about the flesh of fallen angels.
Now you're grownup and nothing much has changed.
Mr Gervais, I've been following your work for about a year now. (The first video I discovering was your "Call of Duty" retrospective while procrastinating during exams. The first three games in the series, "Call of Duty 1", "2" and "Modern Warfare", are perhaps my favourite series of games and you gave the most meaningful and insightful coverage of them that I have ever seen.) Needless to say, I've since gone on to watch almost all of your videos, and what strikes me the most about your essays is that you always go out of your way to meet a game halfway; to really give it a fair shake and try to understand exactly what it is trying to do, while still doing so in a critical manner. Funny enough, this is in stark contrast to my other favourite games journalist online, Yahtzee Croshaw, who is infinitely less patient and more difficult to please.
Anywho, I suppose this is really just a belated comment to tell you that I very much appreciate your work. So long and thanks for all the rad opening songs.
Sincerely
A fan from the southern tip of Africa
P.S. I don't know if it's an affectation for the videos, but your classic 1930s radio voice is quite spectacular.
i never realized the joke when mona said her sisters name was lisa until noah said "get it?" Then i realized heheh mona lisa...
I didn't get the joke until your comment spelled it out.
@@ralphrainwater Yes, and I feel so stupid right now.
I thought it was a reference to the simpsons lol "Lisa Sax"
to be honest I didn't get it until I read the last part of your comment either
I don't get it
Shocked to hear that someone else also likes max Payne 3. It's underappreciated as heck.
The surprisingly mature character moments, the fun spectacle and set pieces. It's a good time.
ProjectiluvOP hell yeah.. we Need a Max Payne 4 game😍
shady records no we dont
I adore Max Payne 3
Its my personal favorite rockstar game
It's not underappreciated lol. The gameplay was good, but the story sucked. Very predictable and stale. And kinda ruins the closure of Max Payne 2.
At the end of the video I was reminded of what moved me by the end of MP3 - The man is finally free. Game starts with a worn-off shell of a struggling man in MP1 and 2, puts him in a wildly different environment where he realizes he is living a weird cliche that don't really make sense anymore, and then sets him free into the sunset in the end. It's a perfect finale.
Archwizard Snim that was already mp2's ending tho
@@jimbogreen7029 he was still monologuing at mp2 and mp1, but in mp3, he does not do that anymore.
@@Vortiboy23 You're the only one I've seen comment on the fact Payne's ending has no narration. The final cutscene has no narration and no dialogue, which goes directly against the rest of the game and the endings of the other ones. I always felt it symbolised Max letting go of his cliché life: the hard-boiled detective, and moving on to something that won't be utterly miserable.
@@youn00ber he deserves a break, he’s going to need his ribs and hips replaced in less than a year after all those shootdodges
@@xanaxodgrindcorelover9191 Lmao true. After jumping through multiple windows in slow motion you deserve a rest
"You're in a UA-cam video, Max."
"The truth was like a green crack through my brain. A red bar traversing through a grey line beneath the frame of reality. A myriad of anonymous eyes watching over your past, present and future. The sole reason of your existence depending on decisions made by souless machines ruled by a devilish algorythm.
I was in a UA-cam video. Funny as hell, this was the most horrible thing I could think of."
The text painted on the wall around 57:00 reads "Those that know everything marvel at little, and those that know little marvel at everything" - or something close to that. Personally, I cant say if that is related to the meaning the creators wanted to impart on the game, or if it is just something they got from research in Brazil at some point.
Awesome, informative and entertaining video, as usual.
interesting, thank you. personally I don’t know if I’d agree tho, some things require knowledge of them to appreciate their intricacy and fascination, appearing mundane or boring without such knowledge
Dificil de achar brasileiros em videos de qualidade, a maioria vê Felipe Neto e o lixo do Flow.
One have my favorite MP3 lines is "I've been sitting at the bar for few hours or a few years depending on how you look at things, I tried not to look at things."
Interesting take on the series. Glad to see someone actually appreciate 3 for what it does differently. I don't know if I agree with your take on Max Payne 2, although I certainly understand it. I personally love it for it's smaller, more contemplative and personal story as contrast to Max Payne 1's big and goofy conspiracy beats. I see Max Payne 2 as more of an abstract story about grief, about Max reveling in his baser instincts as a way to cope after the bullets have stopped at the end of Max Payne 1. The literal story doesn't really matter as much as Max's personal demons expressed in the dream sequences and inner monologues. The ending line is the perfect ending for the series in a way, but yet I still love Max Payne 3 for what it does differently even though it kind of invalidates it.
I thought that the line about having a dream about a dead person “but it was alright” was amazing when I first played mp2 and then people in my life actually died and I actually have dreams like that.
max payne 1 is definitely the better game in every aspect, and Noah is one of the few people to acknowledge that. i love 2, but it is overrated.
To all the "You're copying Raycevick" comments,
There's a million people on this site, and the venn diagram of people who do video essays, and people who like Max Payne is large enough that people are probably aware of Raycevick and Noah
Originality isn't doing something else, it's doing something differently.
Yeah! Besides, everybody knows he was copying me. :)
And besides, his readings on 2 and 3 are literally the opposite of Raycevick.
Who is saying he's copying Raycevick? He's been making these type of videos before Raycevick.
Not to mention Noah’s and raycevick have two completely different opinions of the trilogy and focus on different aspects of them both
Cooper Smith a series retrospective of Max Payne? Yep, no similarities to Raycevick at all(!)
I like how at the end of MP3, Max learns the lesson that killing isn't worth it and he lets the big bad live. Then your game stats pop up after the credits to show that you've killed 950 people throughout the game.
One of the best dissections of a game franchise where each and every part is equally great. It's a rarity to find such franchise where every single game in the series possesses these high qualities
I don't know why I like Max Payne 2 so much more than everybody else.
In terms of gameplay, it flows much better than the first game, and the added physics and effects makes for some real John Woo bombast. It's hard to replicate Woo without also replicating the hundreds of squibs, flying debris, and insane bodycount.
In terms of story I have no problem taking the game seriously when it's being serious, and having fun when it has fun. A consistent tone might sound good on paper, but 6-10 hours of the same tone is tiring.
max payne 2 is a certified classic but i think the aesthetics are a little more generic and lack some of the stylized grit of the original game. the first game was legitimately unsettling when i first played it as a young lad. going back and replaying the games now i don't find them particularly deep or compelling but they still hold up about as well as could be expected.
I dunno, I adore Max Payne 2. At release it wasn't particularly well liked, but it seems like it has had a sort of reappraisal over the years though. It is normally considered to be the peak of the series as far as I can tell.
Roland, I thought this was another Max Payne video from you when I looked in my subscribtion box
The Bullet Time Spinning Reload is one of the most dank mechanics I've ever seen.
The Examined Life (of Gaming) muh bromie
Favorite Face Model? I like the Sam Lake model from the first game but after playing through the Third Game I realized the only reason I didn't like his Model was because he wasn't wearing the Coat lol. My favorite parts of the (3rd) game were when you Flash Back to New York and you're wearing his Coat and it actually felt like a Max Payne Game. It's weird I know
I had this exact same feeling. I'd replay the hell out of the flashback levels.
It's because Max Payne 3's face looks like an older version of Max Payne 2, whereas Max Payne 2 looks almost like a completely different person compared to Max Payne 1.
@@almostshawn3230 his face in 3 is the face of the voice of max from all 3 games James mccaffrey
@@almostshawn3230 I mean they used the guy who voices max instead for Max payne 3
I loved Sam Lake's face too! I feel like a minority in that lol His whole outfit is iconic.
Max Payne 3: Even with its flaws is my fave Max Payne, & One of my favourite shooters of all time.
"Time moves forward. And nothing changes". Still the best line in the whole game to me. Great vid as always Noah.
I wish I could like as much as you do. I love the gameplay and some of Max's narration is still great but I just don't like the story or the characters and I specially dislike the setting. All that being said, I've still beat it around 5-6 times.
"The way I see it you're either building the future or you're trying to rebuild the past."
@@duke3250 "The way I see it there’s two types of people, those who spend their lives trying to build a future and those who spend their lives trying to rebuild the past. For too long I’d be stuck in between, hidden in the dark." One of the best quotes I've ever heard in a video game.
It's a terrible line after the end of the second game though
Max Payne 3 is my favourite Max Payne game too, and also my all time favourite game ever!! So glad it FINALLY got made backwards compatible for Xbox One :)
As much as I enjoyed the first 2, I really liked the 3rd one. As much as I'd like another one, I think the ending is complete.
The 3rd had little to do with Max Payne. It was an ending to something that didn't exist.
@E what do you think max Payne 2 was? 3 was a retelling of 2, but not as good. Still a good game, but kinda unnecessary.
@@modernmobster it was max stirring some shit up again after his story was ended, there is no sense to it he got wrapped up and opened a whole can of worms cause he couldn’t hold his temper in that bar with Passos, if max had grown as a person he’d just be a drunkard in New York. now he’s a drunkard in Brazil who redeemed all his killing by saving people who lost family members like him, in his story he stopped another max payne from coming into the world.
He ended up living my mother's dream, drinking in a beach in the state of Bahia
“I was so far past the point of no return that I couldn’t even remember what it had looked like when I passed the point of no return I passed the point of no return I passed the turn I point of no re-*BOOM!*”
Coen van Haaster Don't answer that. A rhetorical question.
The american dream come true.
IT'S THE PAYNE IN THE BUTT
Funny as hell, trying to outsmart a 3 year old youtube comment that I liked was the most horrible thing I could think of.
The Uzi went out of fashion largely due to the rise of the assault rifle predominately shown in video games. (Although it's not accurate to say Max Payne's submachine gun is an uzi as it's actually a Mac 10 and called an Ingram after the designer of the Mac 10).
After the Assault rifle was almost fetishized with its iron sights after Call of Duty Modern Warfare people stopped viewing the Uzi or machine pistol as a particularly fun weapon to use and more like a situational inaccurate gun you wouldn't want to use over an assault rifle. It doesn't help that the assault rifle is usually balanced as a player's "go-to" gun in most video games now.
Also. Submachine guns were largely fazed out by the advances in the firearm world. Assault Rifles versatility makes them obsolete in most cases
@@ctrouble2309 Still, you can do amazing things with an MP5. Mac 10 wasn't much of a submachinegun to begin with, it was more of a simple blowback machinepistol.
iron sights killed the uzi
Seeing you struggle with all those names always brings a smile to my face.
Even though i disagree with most points you made about MP2 and 3, it was still entertaining to watch and it made me look at Max Payne 3 in a different - more positive - light.
Excellent video as always. Keep it up.
Cheers.
Noah often critiques games I've never played or have zero interest in.
But I listened to all his vids. Quality interesting writing.
Thank you
Jim _
I do the same thing, I've never played this trilogy or Alan Wake for example but I enjoyed his videos all the same.
Hearing Noah shout "IT'S PAYYYYYNE!" is something I didn't know I was waiting to hear.
I played 1 and 2 when I was like 14 or 15 and thought they were really edgy and mature serious stories lol
Same here! As I wasn‘t great at understanding English back then most of it went over my head and it was the game equivalent of a metal song I would shout along with, not knowing the meaning of even half the words.
Still fun!
I mean, they are, but thats onyl 2/3's of it. The final third is the camp that both games embrace full throttle
I was 11 and i still have nightmares of the baby cries and long hailways. IDK, it fucked me up.
@@jessehenderson2967 I was like 7 or 8 watching my dad play it. I didn’t pick that game up for years because of that mission.
@@mordymountains1096 I would use cheats to pass it xD
I have rewatched this one more than any of your other retrospectives, and this one always stays with me
. I think this is my favorite of your videos.
Thank you for making this video.
RIP James Mccaffrey. He gave us one of the greatest character performances in video game history
Noah, dearest of all my UA-camrs!
Been waiting to hear your thoughts on this one. Thank you so much!
Probably my favourite video game related essayist on UA-cam. Noah shares that same space Nakey Jakey does where it always boils down to that very relatable experience of playing a game at a certain time in your life and how that game affected your life, and inversely how your life effected the experience of playing the game.
I dont want to start a youtuber battle, but cmon man noah is much much deeper than jakey
@@ちにたてとな I think it's a shame people have to compare 2 creators like that without appreciating their differences is what makes them so engaging. Just judging them on some arbitrary idea of "depth" And honestly, I don't know how you could even compare how deep they are separately of the length and format of their videos. Honestly, I don't really want to. They are both great in my opinion and I don't feel the need to rank them. I think it's reductive to compare "How Dark Souls saved me" to Noah's videos on the From Software games. It's apples and oranges IMO. Not trying to start a UA-cam war, just tired of needless conflict and comparisons when we should all be so happy these people are doing such great work.
@@Paulysolo im just doing some "critic critiques". UA-cam video, like any other media, can be subject to critiques.
Hell, on Noah's videos he sometimes compares videogames, that's just life man
@@ちにたてとな @user-cf9tl9lk5g Cool, that was context I did not have in my reply. It just seemed initially to me like you wanted to rank one over the other on something that didn't seem relevant to my comment which was more about how they both bring strongly defined and relatable personal histories that inform their videos. I was not really trying to compare anything else or rank in any way. I get what you were going for now. Please do link to the vid when it's done.
19:50
"… more meaningfully connected to Alan Wake games yet to come than Max Payne already in the studio's taillights"
wow, you were on the money with that one!
Your videos are great because every point is so deliberate and full of content that you could make a video essay on each of them. Like your comment about how comparing Max Payne to a movie was a compliment in 2001, not a jab like it is today. I could go on about that one subject alone and it was just one sentence in your hour long video! Great job Noah.
Wow, you're really bright. You speak with a level of poetry and insight that is downright impressive. In any case, I think about Max a lot, so I really enjoyed this. Thank you for sharing.
He really does know how to turn a phrase, doesn't he
I love 3, it was for me the perfect ending to this character.
8:26 I love this "MOST CERTAINLY WALKING HERE" line so much
Your writing in this video occasionally really made me smile and think "wow, I hope he realized how hard he nailed what he was intending to say with that eloquent sentence". Thanks Noah!
Wow, you are very easily impressed. He’s a decent script writer,,, but that’s where it ends. A million better here on UA-cam.
@@idrinkmilk282 yeah your comment is worthless
@@idrinkmilk282 ok?
@@idrinkmilk282 like who
@@JoyKirbs many such cases of wannabe internet scribes that get off on "correcting" people for some reason
I feel like you misinterpreted Mona's role in the story and took it too superficially as just a paper thin love story or a satirical glance at genre.
From what I saw in the story especially when it first released Mona represented the main character's desire and inability to move on from his wife's death. You can see this with the Adam and Eve painting at the end of the game (since the tree of knowledge and apple typically represent desire) and how Mona is often portrayed as a temptress in his dreams. There's even a moment in his dream sequence where Max feels guilty about his desire for Mona that he dreams that he was the one who murdered his wife due to his desires for Mona. Mona as an object of desire a motif repeated throughout the game. Like when Vlad states to Max that he would have sex with Mona which causes Max to dislike him. Max's "love" for Mona is deliberately sexual because he needs to feel that way with another woman and hasn't since his wife's death. And he does it in an extremely unhealthy way by trying to be with a woman who is a criminal and is later revealed to have been hired to kill him. This also contrasts with Vlad who acts as a foil to Max. Vlad is clearly in a relationship with Winterson and takes care of her child. It's clear Vlad's romance with Winterson is a far more solid relationship than Max's with Mona. He also chastises Max for continuing with his revenge by pointing out how miserable he is.
There's a lot of incredibly subtle worldbuilding spread throughout Max Payne 2 that indicate Mona is more so a catalyst of change in Max's life and that the Max we are playing as in the sequel is a very different character compared to the original. In Max Payne 2 he is far less quippy and far less joyful overall. Compared to his original incarnation he also doesn't smile until the very end. You can see in his apartment he doesn't live particularly well and still chronically consumes painkillers despite his adventure being over already. There's an audio tape you can listen to in the sniper's apartment in the same level where you listen to a sex hotline Max calls prior to the events of the game where he depressingly attempts to call a prostitute out of a very desperate sense of loneliness. It's clear that the revenge Max sought and eventually gained in Max Payne 1 left him with nothing in his life and Mona entering his life give him an unhealthy spark that caused him to enter a downward spiral where his newest case consumes him and he begins aiding a criminal. It's why it's somewhat shocking when he murders Winterson especially since the twist of her betrayal isn't revealed until a few levels later. It's also why the final line in both endings is "I had a dream of my wife, she was dead but it was alright" signifying he has finally gotten over his guilt over his wife's death.
The story of the game is far more about Max coming to grips with his inability to cope with life after finally gaining his revenge than it is about a meta glance at genre. If anything the love story elements highlight this theme the best and make it stand out compared to other games.
I'm impressed the extents ppl will go to "defend" a very by-the-numbers noir romance narrative as being deeper than the franchise's recurrent themes. Was Titanic a love story? Or was it a story about a real big ship sinking surrounded by symbolism about class warfare & the hubris of human engineering? The love story is necessary for it to be watchable, but is it ABOUT love?
This is an...exhaustive summary of the events & themes of the Mona/Max 'ship, but foregrounding it as the "point" of Max Payne 2 kind of makes the game shittier, as a work of fiction. I like a good love story as much as the next guy, but this was...very much not a good love story. It's an excuse (which you made pretty clear in your comment) for Max to go off the rails. It's written & executed pretty well - for the medium at least - but it comes thru pretty clearly as a contrivance to support the subtextual stuff Remedy always wants to get into: the nature of the text, free will in videogames, unpacking & deconstructing the tropes of noir & games both, etc.
The purpose of the love story in Max Payne 2 wasn't to illicit a feeling of genuine romance. The purpose of the love story in Max Payne 2 is to make the player pity Max for how much of a sadsack he has become. That was the point I was making.
I don't agree that it's a "ship". The game clearly has evidence of superior male/female relationships (in the form of Vlad/Winterson. Vlad has so many parallels to Max in the game that it's obvious he was meant to be a foil to him). The story uses a primarily sex driven romance to push forward a more subtle theme of the futility of revenge.
I agree with most of this, but again, the "futility of revenge" as the game's central theme is a problem for me, because the revenge ISN'T futile. Putting aside Mona living if you want, because many don't think that's canon or whatever, he still murders everyone who crosses him. What exactly is futile about it, specific to this game, I mean? He isn't punished for doing it, he doesn't fail the undertaking (unless you count Mona dying, which was pretty clearly inevitable even from the characters' perspectives)...the guy wins? He's probably still extremely emo, but revenge is for closure, victory, & law enforcement. To me it seemed like he succeeded in all 3.
I found the themes of inevitability & being trapped in your own failures closer to what worked. I've honestly been surprised by how closely some related to the romance plot, & further by your painting the relationship between Vlad & Winterson as positive? Did I drastically misremember something? I got the strong impression Vlad was manipulating her like he did everyone else. I think you even find a phone message where he's basically saying that?
Now I'm uncertain of my memory; maybe you can clarify if you want, but I didn't even pick up much cause to compare the two relationships. Vlad's is ostensibly wholesome but manipulative & ultimately doomed as well, while Max & Mona are at least being as honest as they can be about their horniness, which seems like a pretty organic romance motive to me. Max & Mona are also basically carbon-copies of each other, where Vlad & Winterson are so disconnected the relationship honestly struck me as pretty poorly-foreshadowed twist.
I dunno. Interested to hear more your thoughts if you have them.
Oh & by "ship" I didn't mean to imply something derogatory. Just short version of "relationship," not that it's an external head-canon or something.
TheSoulHarvester I recently, as in the past month, played the whole trilogy and your memory serves you well. Also I'd like to add that I have never understood why people didn't like the 3rd game. Mostly it's complaints about the story, but some didn't like the slight adds to gameplay mechanic. I think there is a lot of people wrapped up in the Mona relationship craps because the games are primarily played by over sexed teens. For me as a man who's been happily married for 18 years the revenge for his family and the self destruction brought on from the loss and the never getting over it themes all work better and make more sense.
Papa Noah is back
The return.
And as always a great analysis on the character and the game.
That's Daddy Noah to you
With his Papa, no less.
lol
Fuckin spit my water out at the description of Max's face in the sequel as a "melancholy frog"
Max 2 is one of my favorite shooters and felt like flash-forward to Rockstar games to come, most importantly GTA IV. The game indeed feels like a repeat of 1 but also feels like the devs trying to polish their original vision to perfection. The story just works for me and Max still fells like a proper Hollywood anti-hero, even if he is way to self away about what´s going on around him. The love story is indeed shallow but it´s mean to be. Just 2 drifters in the night crossing and both being doomed. The Twin Peaks "tie-ins" becoming proper text was the cherry on top for me. It turned the story into a Greek tragedy with Max showtime being being the protagonists and also the Greek chorus.
A shame that the MP film was suck a turn, as the game could have absolutely worked as a Nicolas Winding Refn film in my eyes.
The canon MP 3 prequel comic is pretty good btw.
I know this video is 3 years old, and i haven't even looked at the channel if its still active, but you just gained a subscriber. great work.
I watched this in Bullet Time
I hope you did the Max Payne face.
by changing the video play speed to 0.25.
yes.
Pff, who uses Bullet Time? Glorified Shootdodge spam all day!
(Except that it was overly too good for clearing rooms in MP2 and taking potshots from cover in MP3.)
I watched this game in bullet time while popping narcotics, or was it the other way around?
Very glad you made this video. I just beat the Max Payne trilogy and I knew that I had to watch it after doing so.
Glad you didn't trash MP3, love that game!
Life isn’t all about what you like
@@RedDeadVegas Don't be a dick
This. This is why I watch your videos, Noah. You take a game I thought I knew and show a new side of it. Nicely done!
Oh my Go, yes! My all-time favorite content creator. You are THE absolute master of videogame analysis.
Noah I felt like you disappeared for a while there! A Max Payne video from you couldn't be a better surprise.
He uploads once a month pretty steadily.
He disappeared because he goes on road trips and murders hitchhikers and prostitutes.
Real Fans skip to the end to see what Noah is wearing
Man, this video was fantastic! That interpretation of Max Payne 2 being about Max coming to a realization of himself being a character cliché of a noir style cop was really interesting.
Max Payne 3 is still one of my favorite games of all time. Its game mechanics are so... perfect. The pacing is what makes it so good though. The main complaint I hear about MP3 is that the cutscenes take away from the experience by ruining the pacing and I could not disagree more with this take.
If it was almost entirely gameplay from start to finish, it would become exausting. It would lose the intensity and your eyes would just glaze over after an hour and a half. The story and the cutscenes go hand in hand with the gameplay to create something that modern AAA cinematic experiences only wish they could be.
Great retrospect. The dark and melancholy feel is very finnish thing and you can feel the remedy tone playing the first two payne games
Max Payne 2 for me is Remedy's best game at least in terms of combat I don't know how you found it bland. MP2 was one of the first games to use the Havok's physics engine which made for all the crazy ragdoll deaths and flying debris and objects. Max Payne 2 actually holds up very well for a 15 year old game. Max Payne 1 is great but the combat isn't nearly as polished as the sequel or as satisfy . Max Payne 3 is damn good but I wish it had grenades in the singleplayer and I wish you could skip the cutscenes. I replayed all these games to death they're all great in their own way but Max Payne 2 to me will always be superior to both 1 and 3 in terms of fun combat.
You can play without cutscenes if you just play the challenge modes
@@ripred42 arcade mod has cutscenes. Cutscene Skip mod works sometimes, when it doesn't cause bug.
Pretty much agreed on all counts, the only MP game I don't fully get on with is Max Payne 3. I just couldn't get over the fact that it didn't feel like Max Payne. Solid enough third person shooter, but I was specifically looking for a Max Payne game and it didn't really give me that. It has all the mechanical trappings but it lacks the same game feel and surreal vibe.
*"IT'S PAYYYYYYYN"*
After watching this, I decided to give Max Payne 1 a shot. I loved it and I’m sad I hadn’t played it earlier in life. Thank you for this video.
Even at its weakest moment, the writing of Max Payne was always so good in such a cheese but satisfying way. The "Linear sequence of scares" quote is so great in that way. I laughed pretty hard when Civvie used it as the title for his Half Life video.
I get the feeling that more people now are taking a look at Max Payne 3 and finding that they've missed what is actually a solid third person shooter with an honestly good story, instead of their presumptuous image of Rockstar buying a corpse off Remedy and trying add Triple-A make up on it. I guess it's just law of entropy at work where whatever we have now is now considered even worse in terms of gameplay that we're now okay with what we claimed we hated before.
Love your reading of this series though. I'm glad I can see the connective tissue of Max Payne 3 with its two predecessors.
PersonWMA Sure it's not terrible. The cutscenes, graphics, and shooting are all excellent. But the pacing is terrible, there's quite a lot of filler, and the plot is full of holes.
Noah. My brother and I love your videos. You’ve honestly changed our lives with your extremely intelligent view on our favorite hobby. Please keep doing what you do.
I think long-form critiques, discussions, and retrospectives such as what exist on your channel and some others (MauLeR, for example) are what will propel games from entertainment to art in the perception of the common person. These discussions make people (and hopefully by extension, developers) think about what make games good - and how to elevate them. All that is to say: thank you for your hard work in the making of these videos. I've only seen this video and one other of your videos, and now I'm going to watch all of them. Excellent work, please keep it up.
Don't you compare that fucker and Noah in the same sentence.
mauler sucks, pedantry isnt good criticism
Hey, I agree Noah and Mauler shouldn't be compared. When I wrote this I was ignorant of Mauler being a shitheel. I've changed my opinion of Mauler since writing this two years ago. Noah, however, remains the best video game essayist I've had the pleasure to watch :)
Noah, you are my comfort food lol. When I need to relax, this is the place I go.
Always preferred 2 to original. Can't beat that glorious level design and NPC dialogues.
Funny, I always thought that 2 took itself too seriously. Max Payne 1 was the ultimate for me. Nothing beats these graphic novels.
@@dersauresgeber6028 I just completed 2 a few days ago, and I agree. that's precisely what makes 1 superior. it isn't afraid to be goofy. it's impressive though that the same game that has Sam Lake's hilariously contorted expression, stereotypical italoamerican wiseguys as goons and Vinnie YA FREAKING CAAAP Gognitti can be mint dark as fuck too. meanwhile 2, while more "refined" and (arguably) mature than 1, doesn't quite achieve that same charm.
Ive been checking everyday for your new video to come out. Your writing style is fantastic, you bring a sophistication to your content that I haven't seen anyone even come close to. When I start working again you will be the reason I make a patreon account.
“Max doesnt much doesn’t deserve to win but he is much to stubborn to die” is the best description of Max Payne I’ve ever heard
I’ve never played this series, only known of it as a child and heard nothing but stellar comments on it by a close friend of mine and you convinced me to want to try it some day. You earned a sub from me and I am going to move onto another one of your retrospective deep dives. Incredible content friend. I’m in the middle of moving my mom rn, but I plan on supporting you in some way further. This is phenomenal.
I still can't believe it when I hear you read out NK Jemisin. She's one of my favourite authors and I love that we'e both fans of your work
i love the little mistakes in delivery. “they were used…” “they were used TO…”
i legitimately love it. i know it’s not entirely a creative choice, but it is a creative choice to keep those mistakes in the audio. i really respect it but i also just love it and i can’t put my finger on why.
it’s not like it’s funny to me. it’s humanizing maybe? seeing as you’re a disembodied voice for much of the video.
+2000 points for working in the word 'Antideluvian'
Hi Noah,
I discovered your videos fairly recently when someone linked the Baldur's Gate one on the Obsidian forums and ended up binge watching your back catalogue. I'm glad that Patreon exists and allows people like you to make content that would otherwise be unprofitable under UA-cam's ad revenue system. You're one of a small handful of content creators I intend to donate to when I'm in a position to be able to afford it.
Keep up the good work, it's appreciated.
As a max Payne fan I've always been at odds with the 3rd installment you made me see that game in a new light, hats off to you.
Once again Noah-Cadwell Gevais challenge to go bed at my regular hour
I really like your interpretation of Max Payne 3. The previous games had the most wild twists imaginable, but here? The twist is that he is finally himself again. He can move past the pain now.
The most iconic scene for me personally is the airport shootout. That music just makes your lock in. So hard that you're shooting the AI from such a distance that they're not shooting back.
I say this every time you post a new video, but you are brilliant Noah. Such an amazing script writter. I would LOVE to hear you talk about Hotline Miami
"The mobsters themselves, a vast army of goons who are most certainly walkin' heah,"
I'm dead
A big reason why the gameplay was changed with Max Payne 2 had much more to do with the increased enemy count they were allowed to do now due to the improvements with the engine. The difficulty at the time when Max Payne 1 released was actually a complaint and had more to do with the technical limitations of MP1 at the time. You'll notice in Max Payne 1 it's very rare the game will ever throw more than 3-4 guys at you at once but it's very common you'll fight close to 10 in Max Payne 2. This is because computers at the time would chug due to having too many enemies on screen unless you spawned them in cleverly like in Jedi Knight where enemies were invisible until you triggered them to appear. There's also subtle changes they made that don't seem apparent at first like how enemies often drop painkillers and the shotgun's spread is much wider and does less damage making it a far less useful weapon.
A closer comparison to the gameplay in Max Payne 1 I've always felt was Hotline Miami wheras Max Payne 2 was closer to F.E.A.R.
DeadYorick they also spent a lot of dev time just getting bullet time working
Well Bullet time was already working with Mp1. MP2 ran on the same engine.
A lot of the bullet time changes in MP2 were actually just tweaks made in the .ini files. It is very possible (and indeed people have done it) to mod Max Payne 2 with the same bullet time mechanics as MP1.
It does make the game extremely hard due to how many more enemies there are.
I typically really like your essays, but this one is beautiful. Max Payne has been one of my favorite game series' since I was in my early teens and everything here is a really refreshing take.
It’s dark in some places, but it’s sunny everywhere else.
Noah, you dropped this at precisely the right time in my life. Things are going crazy and my world is falling apart, but your dulcet tones are always there when I need them. Thank you, Noah.
Max Payne 2's story sets a perfect tone of surrealist satire combined with classic and sincere film noir. It is both a deconstruction/meta story of gaming and noir cliches loaded with dark humour, and a sincere love story. These tones co-exist much much better in MP2 than in MP1 in my opinion and MP2 is by far the storytelling highlight of the series (MP3 isn't even close, with a far more straightforward story that fundamentally lacks the surrealism and the pastiche of tones that made 1 & 2 so unique). I don't see how MP2 could be considered a "discordant mess" when the tonal balance feels so meticulously crafted. We know that Mona Sax/Max Payne/Vlad/Vinny (really all the characters) are cliche archetypes trapped in a video game (some even self aware about the fundamental absurdity of their existence), but that does not prohibit the audience from emotionally engaging with them nor does it undercut a tragic tale with a truly memorable ending. MP2 is one of the artistic high points of gaming overall IMO and is definitely NOT skippable.
With that said^^^^ The gameplay is arguably the weakest of the 3 despite being the most accessible & initially fun. It is fast, fluid and well done but also over the top and a little easy
ALSO, in regards to the relationship with Mona being paper thin. Have you never experienced an intense feeling of lust or connection with someone you have not known well, maybe based on the circumstances? Maybe in MP2 it is based on the two of them fighting for their lives together? Maybe based on Max's and Mona's unresolved pain and grief? I agree that what they found within their brief interactions in MP2 probably couldn't be categorized as profound love and mutual admiration; but when your life is on the line and you're in a gun fight every 10 minutes, maybe a few sparks and a brief connection feels like the only thing that matters in a chaotic, violent and meaningless world. As someone who has had multiple experiences in my life that felt profound and extremely memorable despite being brief and fleeting, I have no problem buying that these two damaged characters could care deeply about each other in a brief period of time. This also fuels the meta narrative if you choose to view them as nothing more than mirrored archetypes that have a conjoined fate in a fatalistic story with a fixed outcome. Also, consider MP2's love story in comparison and in the context of action games at the time. When have we seen prior to MP2 a non stop- action packed SHOOTER that even bothers to make an attempt at building nuanced and emotionally engaging characters and relationships. My point is, even if the love story in gaming was in it's infancy, MP2 (and MP1 to a lesser degree) helped usher in a new era of gaming and paved the way for games like Wolfenstein The New Order, and Spec Ops The Line (AND MANY OTHERS) to combine self aware and ambitious storytelling with traditional gameplay. All in all, I enjoyed your analysis even though I disagreed with your interpretation of MP2, for whatever reason, it is the one game in the series that has stuck with me.
Beautifully written, you always do an incredible job of using language appropriate to each game creating an experience that reflects the game itself. It makes for videos that are both enjoyable to listen and equally thought provoking. Thank you for your work.
I've played MP1 and 2 the most out of all my original Xbox games, primarily because I was dirty cheap when it came to new games at the time due to being a wee lad, but also because it was my favorite.
The noire tone of both those entries absolutely captivated me as there wasn't anything like them at the time, hell, even today you'd be hard-pressed to find two other games with the same tone and attention to detail in the level design.
In terms of flow, tone and level design, MP1 certainly wins in those regards but MP2 was outstanding in the gameplay and detail department. Watching paint-cans fly, clutter tumble and bodies ragdoll over chairs and tables is just as exciting today as it was back in 2003. I've played both entries dozens of times over the years and playing them again just a few years ago, I can say with utmost certainty they still hold up today.
Both are rich in atmosphere and tone, and I disagree on your stance that the levels of MP2 paled compared to MP1. I believe they both have their own merits considering the jump in both tech and budget and the story motifs. while products of their time, still have a degree of tension and charm (especially MP1) that I just find so captivating in an era where games are trying so damn hard to take themselves seriously whilst Max Payne back in 2001 and at some instances in 2003, did so with a dry crack of wit, comical delivery and a permanent constipated grimace plastered on his face.
Took me this long to realize that Alan Wake was basically Sam Lake's second shot with his original intentions with Max Payne. Realizing that I like to imagine Max Payne 3 is Max in an ultra cynical world devoid of the weird and wacky that Sam Lake is known for cause its thematically what Rockstar is good at and for Max's character is that it's what literally happens to him
I went as Max Payne for Halloween in 2002, everyone thought I was Neo... sigh....
How the fuck?... only way id mistake someone as neo when they're going for max payne would be if you were wearing too much black. Im pretty sure neo has never worn a leppard print shirt lol.
This video is excellent and timely for me as I’m nearly finished with my 5th play though of Max Payne 3. Thank you for seeing past its superficial differences in setting and design compared to the first 2. It is also my favorite in the series for the way it handles the character of Max. It may be my favorite game of all time. Your videos are superb.
Max Payne 2 is one of the greatest games of all time.
Rayma Correct
If nothing else, the atmosphere in the game is bone-chilling.
This is indeed the correct opinion
I just learned, from your Max Payne 2 difficulty ending bit, that Max Payne 2 paved the way for me liking Dark Souls....because MP2 not for narrative reasons, but for gameplay, difficulty reasons, and realized at the end that the story that I wasn't paying attention to was different. Also, Poets of the Fall
The first one is easily the best thanks to it's memorable story and fun gameplay and the 3 it's a close second for it's balls to take Max out of his comfort zone and face his demons. I don't even remember much of MP2 except for the cartoon character with the big head.
even though 3 adds a lot of newer mechanics and is set worlds away from gritty "Noir York", somehow 2 manages to feel like the odd one out, like the middle sibling.
My first Noah vid back in 2018, still one of my absolute favorites
i rarely used bullet time, made the firefights all the more frantic and satisfying
This is one of the greatest retrospectives I've ever seen. Though I disagree a bit about the 2nd game (I'm a sucker for a love story), you paid tribute to this amazing game series, thank you
I think people hate Max Payne 3 because there are no more graphic novel cut scenes and the game makes a point to change up the environment by taking place mostly in Sao Paulo. Change was extremely necessary for the 3rd installment. All of the series characters died by the end of MP2. Another American East coast based game would have been tired. They were extremely faithful to Max Payne as a character. The hate doesn't make sense.
No, we hate it because the gameplay is constantly interrupted by unskippable cutscenes. It feels like less than half the game is actual combat.
I'm fine with favelas, I can even tolerate shaving the head and growing a beard, even though now he doesn't even look like himself. And for an experienced detective he's remarkably stupid, but I choked that up to the excess of alcohol and self medication. But getting constantly interrupted by cutscenes gets annoying real quick.
I barely managed to finish it, and to this day it's the reason I'm loathe to play it again, unlike the previous two games which I've finished four times for Max Payne 1 and three times for MP 2.
Yes they also have some of these problems, especially MP 1 which had some annoying dream sequences, but nothing even nearly on the level of MP 3.
I cannot overstate how much I hated getting my gameplay interrupted so often by cutscenes (that aren't even that great).
Let me play the damn game, for fuck's sake!
So saying that "The hate doesn't make sense" makes no sense to me.
imo gameplay was fine, but the story felt awkwardly tacked on after MP2’s definitive ending for Max’s arc. It sort of undercut his whole transformation in the second game in favour of a disconnected story that could just as easily have been an original game starring an original character.
I think the gameplay fantastic but the story, which is kind of essential in a Max Payne game, is the worst, because
1) They completely ignored all character development of Max Payne 2
2) Max's monologue just sounds like angry ranting instead of romanticizing everything happening to him (i guess that's subjective)
3) dumb ass plot points like the whole Panama part, Wilson finding Max in the middle of nowhere with changed appearance, hiring Max to be the fall guy despite them knowing he shoots himself out of every situation etc
4) the story is really familiar to one brazilian movie, i don't remember what it's called, something with fire in the name
grose zero That would be ‘Man On Fire’
you know what's crazy I just watched the big Lebowski again after years and I GET IT FINALLY
Ever thought about doing the Metal Gear series Noah? They're really singular in the way they spin one narrative over the course of decades on different consoles. Plus they're some genuinely fascinating arthouse stuff in there- especially in 2.
I'd also be fascinated to hear some stories about your DnD campaigns but maybe thats outside the realm of the channel. You seem like an interesting DM
Noah only covers PC games, and only 3 MGS games are on PC (and MGS2 barely works). And I'm pretty sure he's already said he doesn't want to cover the series anyway.
Yea like previously said. Noah only has a PC, no console, and only plays PC games. Only a few Metal Gear games have been on PC. He won't make a Witcher video because he feels Superbunnyhop covered it well. I think he said he won't do the same for Metal gear because Matthewmatosis covered it well.
SonderStudios I’d say that if want a truly definitive retrospective on the Metal Gear series, ChipCheezum’s LP of the games (from Solids 1-5, including PW and Revengeance) is second to none.
Ok thats totally fair. Whats the consensus on the Souls series? I feel like NCG would have fascinating things to say about that too
After Alan Wake 2, i think a LOT of the narrative elements of MP 2 make more sense in terms of writing.
Woah... you just completely revalued MP3 for me.
I was having a really shitty day, but you really managed to bring up my spirits when I saw this in my feed. Love your work and keep at it!
Noah, since you mentioned Knights of the Old Republic 2 in the video, may I ask if you are planning to do a video on Kotor and Kotor 2? I'd love to hear your opinion on them.
Second
I didn't know I needed this until you wrote it, Matics.
Ruben Rydell-Sandgren :) I've been hoping for a Kotor retrospective ever since I discovered Noah a few years ago. I'm pretty sure he'll do it eventually, but the wait is killing me. I'm particularly interested in hearing his opinions on Kotor 2 deconstruction of Star Wars concepts like good, evil and the Force.
I was thinking about this some days before this video and actually thought a KotOR review was more likely than a Max Payne one, but that he should do both
I recall Noah once mentioning that he had planned on doing a video on KOTOR 1, 2, and the Old Republic MMO, but abandoned it when he got tired of playing the Old Republic. Not sure if he plans on revisiting it or not.
Nice touch with Billy Joel at the beginning.
Noah pronounces the word "also" as "elso"
and the prefix un- as on-
he sounds like an old-timey radio narrator in the best way
Not all American accents are created equal.
Fuzzy Dunlop I am not sure it was an actual accent as much as it was the result of a bad English teacher.
You sound more butthurt than you have a right to be - the way one pronounces a word is inconsequential to the way they use the word in a sentence. I'm not going to say "get over it" because I believe people have the right to impart meaning in whatever they wish - regardless of how inconsequential I personally view it to be - but I will ask you to reconsider your priorities - and consider the fact that you're projecting "pride" onto him that is truthfully your own - you're the pedant getting your panties in a twist of pronunciation - not him - so you seem much more 'prideful' than he does from my view point. You view your own pronunciation as the ONLY way to pronounce the word - while he is simply pronouncing the word how he feels (or rather it's likely an unconscious choice on his part) - he's not asking ANYONE ELSE to change the way they speak - but for some reason you are so important that he (and presumably everyone else) needs to regard your whims as absolute dogma and conform to your standards. Perhaps, you should get the fuck over yourself. Just advice, you are ultimately free to be as pedantic as gets your rocks off but since the MEANING of the world itself isn't changed whatsoever by how someone pronounces it I can't say I share your enthusiasm for this particular crusade. There must be more important things in the world to which you can "put your foot down" and take some sort of self-important stand.
That said - there are American accents I've heard that DO pronounce "also" like "elso" - it doesn't make it "correct" it just makes it a thing that exists in the world.
Fantastic and conscientious critique of Max Payne. 3 was by far my favorite and I’m happy to see others appreciate it for the same reasons I do.
Strange, this is the first video I've quite disagreed with, at least in it's appreciation of MP2. I guess your own nostalgia is incredibly important here, but I remember thinking the complete opposite. That MP2 was exponentially more vivid, charming, and had far more depth than the first. The set pieces are fantastic, it's surrealism much better thought out and explored and MY GOD did I fancy Mona! MP1 though ground breaking felt a little flat in comparison. Ah well, each to their own! Great video Noah, yet again. Despite not completely agreeing with me, so therefore objectively wrong. :P
maybe you're just easily charmed by more-expensive presentation & repetition.
He is talking about Max Payne 2, not 3.
It's a progression for sure, w/ 3 having the highest production value by miles. So far in this thread there's only been reference to 1 & 2 tho, so I was limiting my response to that.
Good take. Gives me more of an appreciation for Max Payne 3, and it's differences from the earlier 2, than I previously had.
As much as I enjoyed your analysis of the series, we have very different conclusions. Far from being the worst of the three, I found MP2 to be the fulfillment of Max Payne. First, James McCaffrey's voice now matched his face, whereas in the first game I thought Max sounded too mature for Sam Lake's face. Second, the TV shows, clever but limited in the first game, were fleshed out in MP2. Yes, it's unrealistic in the middle of a gun fight to be able to pause the world to watch commercials and TV series, but I found the stories to be compelling in their own right. Third, the bullet time mechanic itself, including the reloading animation, perfects the first game's version.
You may remember Rockstar originally announced James McCaffrey would not be back for MP3, because they wanted to replace the narration with a younger voice actor. Thankfully they changed their mind after many, including myself, protested that McCaffrey was the only continuity in Max Payne as a game character, given how each iteration of him looked nothing like the version before. After playing MP3 years ago, and not once since, I remember his narration as the best thing about the game.
After watching your analysis, I'll go back and give MP3 another shot. My main complaint the first time was, why invest all that money and time in creating a beautiful game world, then require the player to race past everything? Objectives are timed, and if you stop to admire your surroundings, or to look at posters on the wall, you fail. You always seemed to be racing to your objective, with not a TV show commenting on the action in sight.
Still, very glad you covered this series and always await your next retrospective.
HOLY HELL YES.
Can't wait to watch this over the next 24 hours, wish I didn't have such a busy schedule this summer!