I’m just a UA-cam future sailor current non-sailor and I support this message. It is always great seeing the thought that goes into future maintenance and taking everything into account.
As an Aussie, we were so impressed when Australia 2 won the America Cup 1983, back in the day. The big advantage they had was the design of the keel with a bulb and winglets, by Ben Lexcen, which started the tradition of winged keels.
I no longer have a dishwasher after 60 years and now live in a hard water area. I have found I have to add bleach once in a while as my white dishes get a grudgy looking film! My neighbor and I feel like our dishes never look really clean, like with a dishwasher. Both of us are contemplating getting a small dishwasher like our neighbor has! Glad I had one once Covid hit!
I dont blame him top loaders are expensive so I hope he finds one to fit the corner where they have chosen to fit one if she lets him have one which I think she has as the blowback from subscribers including me would be massive I am just wondering whether it is a mutual decision to go without daggerboards to me it makes sense to go without them I would do the same if I had a choice as dagger boards are expensive and you have more safety with the wiglets as it protects the rudder as they have said and it makes the boat stronger to boot so it's a win-win.
I think you made the right decision on the dagger boards. You don't need any added complexity and failure points in your boat for what you do. I guess if it takes you another day to get somewhere it's a small price to pay for having to sit on the hard for months to fix a dagger board. It goes along with the KISS principle which in most things in life is a very good rule of thumb. Keep the good stuff coming guys and happy anniversary.
That doesn't really make much sense. Avoiding dagger boards does avoid some complexity but not much and pretty much anything which will break a daggerboard will also either break or heavily damage a standard keel. Additionally, while HH boats while extremely impressive from an engineering standpoint they are definitely not KISS. They're more or less comfortable raceboats. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as a boat, but as a cruiser they're terrible. Everything is hyper-digitalised, made out of carbon-fibre (which while an amazing material takes damage extremely poorly) and there is very little in terms of back ups. A lightning strike and/or collision with a container, whale or uncharted ground will make the boat extremely dangerous and will very possibly sink it. All these problems are present to some extent in all modern cat manufacturers and the way keels are built for almost all modern monohulls makes them extremely dangerous for cross-ocean sailing too (kraken is, to the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer making boats with an integral keel). However, HH is a particularly bad offender, they build some of the least durable and worst suited boats for cursing and market them for that exact purpose.
Dagger boards are simple to fix with no need to haul out... Keels are way more ongoing maintenance and when damaged can be more expensive due to haulout costs
Remember when you guys were moving onto a sailboat before you knew how to sail and fast forward today. Now, you are stepping up in performance. Tiny steps lead up to dream goals met. ❤
The winged keel, if my memory serves me correctly, was introduced to the sailing world in the American's Cup race in 1983 onboard the Australia II 12m boat. The keel was designed and tested in secret by Ben Lexcen in the Netherlands. Great Aussie/Dutch innovation!
For his 1983 challenge, Ben Lexcen revolutionised sailing yacht design with the creation of the winged keel. Described as 'upside down', the keel lowered drag, made the boat more stable and manoeuvrable, particularly in tacking. Cheers guys live your videos,Tony Brisbane Australia 🇦🇺
Happy Anniversary! I think you guys made the right decision with the winglets. So stoked to see you guys out on the water with that beast of a boat! Cheers!
From your transition from RV to Cat Sailing to now designing a high performance Cat, meeting top designers and boat builders... You have become such experts. You can swim with the big fish now. 🐠. The science of boat speed is so mind boggling (engineering & physics). Love how they take the extreme strides and sneak them into a. Cruiser for improvements. So many decisions🥴 can't wait when you take off on the water. Blessings!
She's going to be a terrific boat. I'm surprised you were talking about your concern on light wind. From earlier videos, to my understanding this boat's going to do just fine compared to earlier boats.
I agree, you made the correct choice here. The other issue with dagger boards not mentioned is that because they have to make them so strong to withstand those forces constantly that when you do hit something with one, you can end up with a hull breach because the dagger board case cracks which is an even more scary situation. I have a catamaran with dagger boards, and another with mini keels, you can guess which one I use for cruising!
Another wonderful feature of winglets is that they act like a shovel. So when the boat does run aground it digs in and anchors you to that spot so you don’t have to worry about going anywhere while you wait for a tow boat service to arrive and give them all your money!
A super interesting video this week and a really great interview with someone who actually isn't in sales and knows their stuff - looking forward to seeing Jason going upwind with his hair on fire or maybe a Katniss Everdeen moment for Nikki 🤣. I really would like to know if the winglets are providing lift why are they symmetrical or do they not behave in a fluid like in air so angle of attack is more important? The other question and you sort of answered it is would simply putting on one electric motor make the real advantage of daggerboards in light wind irrelevant - you can effectively increase apparent wind with a bit more air speed so sail higher anyway and a small amount of added energy oversomes any drag deficit of the stub keel and improves lift efficiency, also as the motor is off-centre you reduce leeeway by adding a rotation vector to the hulls so improve vmg.
I look at this way... If you get dagger boards you have to know how to use them, and to be honest it adds complexity to every movement you make. I agree the winglets would be my decision as well. I would rather just know my draft is X and cruise into an anchorage and chill....
We had a wing keel on our monohull. At anchor I noticed wonderful breezes coming through from the cockpit and thought - that's not right....we should be bow into the wind. Current and wind cause our anchor line to wrap around the wing keel. LOL. Another time in the Bahamas we ran aground in a remote area 3' from depth.....we sat firmly on our wing keel all night while the water drained out below our seacocks - never tipped and then as soon as we felt water lapping the hull we kedged and motored over to the depth. LOL! Fabulous lifestyle!
Jason and Nikki, thanks for digging into the technical in a way that few other content producers do. You've kept the topic narrow, invited expert opinion, kept to to the idea that it is all personal preference and then added a nice dose of local color. The average viewer does not have the time or resources to go pick apart each of these topics to this extent. At the end of the day, despite all of the eco this's and thats, you've still got one of the most impressive pieces of plastic in the ocean, and you're not sanctimonious about it.
The main considerations for me were speed and safety, Dagger boards are safer when the shit hits the fan for real, pull them right up and have nothing to trip over, can not do that with mini keels. Large beam as well. I don't have an escape hatch.
Coating a dagger board with bottom paint while on the hard can be quite the procedure when they are 12 feet long or longer! Also, one would have to worry about barnacles and such jamming them in the trunks.
Happy Anniversary!! Interesting video with winglets and dagger boards. It’s amazing how far you have come in the sailing world, congratulations. Like they say the more information you can gather on a subject the better decisions can be made. Enjoy your time in Thailand and see you in two weeks.
Great video, I was impressed that I actually understood 90% of what Eric was talking about especially the comparison of the winglet on the keel to the winglet on an aircraft. On an aircraft wing there is what's known as wing tip vortex (a swirling motion in the air as it travels off the end of the wing or wing tip), wing tip vortex creates more drag, more drag equals less speed. The keel acts the same way, it creates a vortex at the bottom of the keel, by adding the (horizontal) winglet, it prevents the water from rolling off the bottom of the keel and creating the vortex type flow with the water (I think that is called fluid dynamics, but I am not sure). Again fantastic video, and great choice in adding the winglet.
Wife and I had the same discussion you two had as we have a HH50 OC being built. I can see her in your videos as it is two over from where yours sit. It might have been the one you filmed the actual keel-winglet on within this video. We came to the conclusion as you two as we are cruisers and the cost difference was also a factor.
@@pauldegan8324 They do not price it out individually...you either get the cruising version or the sport version. Sport version is full carbon hull, carbon mast & boom and carbon dagger boards. The cost of the upgrade package (sport version) from the cruising version is ballpark $350k-$400k USD. That is the figure HH has stated in the various boatshows. I'm not sure the price difference for the H44 that the Wynn's are getting as I can only speak to the HH50. But if I was guessing.... $300k USD
Wise decisions based on research, and knowledge that suits your cruising style and life. Best regards sent. Enjoy life, congratulations on your anniversary.
If you sail around the world with the trade winds, a dagger board would be in the up position most of the time and give no advantage. I think you made the right decision. I'm looking forward to a race against Parlay Revival. When winglets were introduced into the Americas Cup by Australia, it was a way to outwit the 12 meter rule. When the boat healed over, the winglets gave the boat a deeper draft than the boats without winglets, creating an advantage upwind. It was a brilliant move by the Aussies.
You're right that cruisers will have the daggerboards being in the up position most of the time. However, that doesn't mean they won't be providing an advantage. A dagger board in the up position produces almost no drag as opposed to a minikeel which, even with the best designs, will still produce quite a lot of drag. As for the winglets, to the best of my knowledge you are right about them being designed for and introduced on Australia II, however, the advantage doesn't have anything to do with outwitting rules or any particular length, it's simply a more efficient design for high speeds.
Thanks for covering this topic!! You made the perfect choice. You may or may not want to go faster (though I think you’ll go plenty fast), but I’ve never heard anyone wonder about whether they’d like to point better or more poorly. No one says, “ya know, for $5K, I just really would rather have worse VMG for all those years of sailing”. Very excited for you both!
That was really interesting...loved Erik's perspective. And for me personally, it was cool to see them using some fluid dynamics software I worked on a few years ago!
Happy Anniversary guys. Fun fact, in Auckland harbor there is an Americas Cup monohull that was the one which won, it's now a monument, the secret sauce was the use of a winglet. Next time you are there you can go and have a look at it on display there.
"Kiwi Magic" lost, actually. USA's Catamaran, with daggerboards, easily defeated the behemoth Kiwi boat. :) Meanwhile, it was the Aussies that introduced a wing keel to the 1983 Cup that proved victorious over the Americans. Thanks to Morrelli & Melvin, it's great to see Cup technology trickling down to cruising boats though.
@@pauldegan8324 Maybe? I think this is a budget question, and at the moment I don't have the budget! But I am also from a racing background and I enjoy eking out every 0.1 knots from a boat. So yes, if I had the cash, why not!? :)
Sunday Morning Coffee with the "Wynn's", nothing better than this! What a learning curve on keels, dagger boards, efficiency, etc. It is so interesting to learn how much sailing has turned in the last 15 years. The only thing is when your guest Erik was discussing the wing tips of an aircraft that was a really silly remark, they are not just for aircraft to fit together. They serve a far more important Purpose. They improve the efficiency of the Aircraft! Just like your illustration at Min 6:12 said. This aspect has been in use in Aviation for at least 50 years. When I worked at Cessna Experimental Twin Division we were just incorporating it into the Citation 500 Jet and their brand new Designed twins Piston Aircraft. Glad you cleared that up. Happy Anniversary Jason & Nikki! Wow! Cannot wait to hear and learn about Thailand!
Excellente vido. I designed and built a 18' cat after high school (modeled after a photo of a 20' Tornado cat). I used my parents garage stud spacing for the hull bulkheads. Sailed it in Marina Del Rey and Mission Bay San Diego CA. I gained confidence in building anything in the future with this project. I went on to join the Peace Corps in Africa after taking a course in agricultural engineering.
winglets are in general a much greater obstruction hazard when you get obstructed., you wont be slipping out of the mud or sand, you may not be sliding over fishing gear, you wont be bouncing of of bommies or seawalls in the same way. you're much more likely have a more serious impact, if.....if.. the winglets get involved. It's not like the wings run the full length of the keel. so maybe youll never notice. BUT, WINGLETS ARE THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF A SWING KEEL. i would guess it would be a decision between niche case of wanting to beach her occasianally, vs wanting the performance all of the time
Happy anniversary the original winged keel was designed by an Australian for the Americans cup in the 80s sometime back well thanks for another amazing vlog and a big gday mate from Australia 🇦🇺 and cheers 🥂
For my 2cents, You guys are cruisers, as you mentioned, and if you find yourself solo in the middle of the night and a blow pops up, the dagger boards are one more thing to possibly get wrong/forget to adjust. Fixed was definitely the right choice.
Live aboard a Gemini sailing cat. Has retractable center boards and retractable rudders. This arrangement allows the boat to be set on sand and dried out if necessary. Have never done this intentionally, but a couple of times accidentally. Being a shallow draft boat I regularly take it into skinny water (because I can) mostly to find anchorage space where others can't go. Consequently occasionally bump into things sticking up from the bottom. Luckily, never anything as solid as a large rock, and never while under sail (harder to stop). Each encounter resulted in a little noise and the board or rudder just pushing up out of the way. Never any permanent damage only scratched paint. I am a cruiser. The Gemini is NOT a racer, so it fits me perfectly. Just my two cents😊
I had a small 18 foot Buccaneer that I restored . The center board was fiberglass and broke off do to adding more sail area. I tried a wood CB with lead inserted 8 lbs circle glassed over it. I raced this little beast, but that also snapped in half. Then tried a full 1/2 inch Aluminum tapered shape 3 ft long. That worked but sailing in 15 to 25 knot wind it would shudder vibrate on a beam reach. Hiking out would clear that and you could feel counter force. Fast fun and my boys loved learning on that little beast. If you never sailed try a smaller daysail you may get hooked..
I got hooked sailing on an old 20’ Buccaneer with a long lead keel. Only 24” draft. And actually the rudder was a few inches longer. It would bump/drag first. Fortunately, with my inexperience I was sailing over either sand or mud on the west coast of Florida. Also, a plus to inexperience, so much weight below, if it heeled over too far it wouldn’t flip over before just turning into the wind and stopping. Had a blast learning on it.
Good to get on camera a competent naval architect👍. When a client says "I want this one thing", the architect has 40 things that are impacted by just that one thing you want and... a list of engineers to manage that change.
For someone who has sone a lot of miles in both, dagger boards on a performance cat allow up to 8 degrees better windward performance, reduced drag off the wind, increased control and stability at speed and greater safety in storm conditions. So, your boat, your choice, but those shallow hard to access spots, no longer on your menu.
Happy Anniversary guys, I hope your keel doesn't prohibit you from the more shallow areas of anchorages too much, where a removeable daggerboard would give you more clearance in those situations! Love your presentation and best of luck. Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
I think the first time you guys in the USA saw a winged keel was in 1983 when we took the cup off you. it was the first day in my life that I had a beer first thing in the morning, so proud to be an Aussie that day.
I agree with your decision . I don’t much about sailing but I feel you made the right decision. Sailing to me is not about speed but comfort and enjoyment and enjoying your time on the water. Why is everyone in a hurry. A few minutes doesn’t matter. Freeway mentality. I really watching you guys.
You made the correct decision, I have a monohull but with a wing keel 4 foot draft, the keel performs better than most fin keels, but let’s me get into places, that other boats cannot get into. Under speed it really improves the handling greatly, only downside is lobster pots. Never had a problem fishing catching lines.
I love how you two see something, discuss and research it before you make a decision as to whether or not it will benefit you in the long term. You will have an amazing home to take you anywhere, once you have finished building it.
I think you made the right decision. And the smart decision. But I know I would have gone for the daggerboards, probably the curved ones if they were available. I just could not help myself.
Those mini keels eliminate a maintenance item from the list(daggarboard systems ), which is always advantageous on a sailboat because there's always something to check .
Happy Anniversary! I learned a lot from this video. As a non-sailor, I just assumed that catamaran == daggerboards needed. Really appreciated the interview/conversation with Eric, and the explanations by all of you.
Something interesting I learned recently. The area where the Winglet connect to the keel produces quite a bit of drag. The drag is caused by the tight angle. If the put a radius in where the angle is this reduces drag. This was figured out on airplane wings and it was about a 10% gain in speed and a 10% gain in fuel economy. I don't know if this is the same for keels but the drag will still be true. You should ask. Now the down side. There's always a trade off😊 you lose a little bit of wing area with the radius.
I often wonder what the effect would be if the entire keel is curved in, or for complexity's sake, angled in, similar to how straight dagger boards will be angled in. Seems like you can get a little more surface area to bite with minimal draft penalty.
I’m just a full-time RVer here in a motorhome, but this process has been very interesting to watch. And there is a lot of correlation between boats and airplanes, which I am more familiar with. Thanks for the video.
For every choice you make in life you will find those who are like minded and others who’s beliefs and opinions are polar opposites… At the end of the day this boat will be your home and your opinion is the only one that matters!! I love that you try to explain your choices so that your viewers can understand, but it’s your boat/home. So please do you and don’t stress over the opinions of others even if those opposing opinions are very vocal!! Love you guys and always excited to watch the next video! ❤😊♥️
You've chosen well!!! So much info shared here!! I love this learning experience, knowledge not shared any where else!!!! I can't wait to see your next adventure! Sending love Nikki and Jason!!❤❤
Thanks for another great video! Pilot here and just a quick comment on the comparison with aircraft winglets. Winglets are not added due to wingspan and space issues at the gate. Winglets are fitted for one reason only - to reduce induced drag which comes as a result of the lift generated by the wing. Basically air escaping around the wingtips from higher pressure below than above wing.
awesome video ty for sharing you decision in design of keel/ Daggerboards Boats coming along really well. Happy anniversary catch you in a couple weeks
You guys made the right decision going with the mini keels with winglets vs dagger boards based on all of the facts and how you use your boat I wouldn’t listen to the naysayers!
I think you made the best choice for what you are going to do with the boat. I had this discussion with people on a boat in SF Bay yesterday. No boat is perfect for everyone. As you said neither is a car. I say Great call.
That was really fascinating video. Thank you. You guys enjoy your anniversary and have fun in Phuket. Will see you then. Safe travels and love from California.💜🫶⛵️😎🇺🇸
Maintenance would be my number one concern as a cruiser. I’m not gonna necessarily be in someplace where I can readily get the complicated pieces for intricate parts of the boat. I certainly wouldn’t want to be sailing around the Caribbean and hit a reef and then I have to call up the company in China to say hey, please make me a new dagger board and ship it to me halfway around the world. With the mini keel its lift, the boat do a little fiberglass work and you’re back in the water and if it’s the winglet, you may not even care so you could wait till you can get someplace to get it fixed proper. So I agree with you I think you made the best choice and I especially like that the winglet gives you the better performance without giving up draft.
Based on your cruising requirements - I think you made a good decision. When I hear people rambling on about performance; I never really hear them talk much about WEAR AND TEAR. The harder you run most equipment, the more stress and wear you apply.
Eric,,is one of the nicest guys. I’m just saying I didn’t notice him saying wetted surface area great info!I looked at a few HH boats and met Gino and the crew in Charleston. Love what they are doing. They would not install a v-drive transmission for me so I went with a Balance 526,also I didn’t like the import tax into US. Enjoy your custom boat, great decision. 35 yrs ago I didn’t like fin keel boats I only liked full keels,,,and I was anti Catamaran for many years people change ,I did. What seems important to you now will change. Just reef early. I wish you the best of weather in crossings to come.
Erik was good at explaining various aspects of appendages. Your own explanation discussing your decision making was very informative and made the issue much clearer. I have a boat with asymmetic foils and lifting rudders, I like the light weight and the ability to go into much shallower water. B M
Happy Anniversary! I agree with the mini-keels and winglets. I'm sure the boat will have all the performance you need (and more, probably) as live-aboard cruisers while keeping things simple.
I’m just a UA-cam sailor, but it seems to me you made the right decision for how you will use it. And future maintenance is always a consideration.
I agree - there will be more resale demand for the way they set up this cat than is now. I think they made the right choices.
I’m just a UA-cam future sailor current non-sailor and I support this message. It is always great seeing the thought that goes into future maintenance and taking everything into account.
Exact same. My research is watching all the stuff the Wynns and so many others go through. O'Kellys to Delos to etc etc
nah
As an Aussie, we were so impressed when Australia 2 won the America Cup 1983, back in the day.
The big advantage they had was the design of the keel with a bulb and winglets, by Ben Lexcen, which started the tradition of winged keels.
Jason is just wanting to save money on going with these so that he can use the saved money to buy a dishwasher LOL
😆😆😂 You figured it out!
Dishwashers have saved a LOT of marriages. We've been married 57 years and started the first year with a dishwasher.😇
I no longer have a dishwasher after 60 years and now live in a hard water area. I have found I have to add bleach once in a while as my white dishes get a grudgy looking film! My neighbor and I feel like our dishes never look really clean, like with a dishwasher. Both of us are contemplating getting a small dishwasher like our neighbor has! Glad I had one once Covid hit!
I dont blame him top loaders are expensive so I hope he finds one to fit the corner where they have chosen to fit one if she lets him have one which I think she has as the blowback from subscribers including me would be massive I am just wondering whether it is a mutual decision to go without daggerboards to me it makes sense to go without them I would do the same if I had a choice as dagger boards are expensive and you have more safety with the wiglets as it protects the rudder as they have said and it makes the boat stronger to boot so it's a win-win.
Shabara mine
I think you made the right decision on the dagger boards. You don't need any added complexity and failure points in your boat for what you do. I guess if it takes you another day to get somewhere it's a small price to pay for having to sit on the hard for months to fix a dagger board. It goes along with the KISS principle which in most things in life is a very good rule of thumb. Keep the good stuff coming guys and happy anniversary.
More engine time ,so kinda defeats the purpose of a sailboat.Bad idea really😮
Dagger boards are hardly complex.
That doesn't really make much sense. Avoiding dagger boards does avoid some complexity but not much and pretty much anything which will break a daggerboard will also either break or heavily damage a standard keel.
Additionally, while HH boats while extremely impressive from an engineering standpoint they are definitely not KISS. They're more or less comfortable raceboats. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as a boat, but as a cruiser they're terrible. Everything is hyper-digitalised, made out of carbon-fibre (which while an amazing material takes damage extremely poorly) and there is very little in terms of back ups. A lightning strike and/or collision with a container, whale or uncharted ground will make the boat extremely dangerous and will very possibly sink it.
All these problems are present to some extent in all modern cat manufacturers and the way keels are built for almost all modern monohulls makes them extremely dangerous for cross-ocean sailing too (kraken is, to the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer making boats with an integral keel). However, HH is a particularly bad offender, they build some of the least durable and worst suited boats for cursing and market them for that exact purpose.
Dagger boards are simple to fix with no need to haul out... Keels are way more ongoing maintenance and when damaged can be more expensive due to haulout costs
Remember when you guys were moving onto a sailboat before you knew how to sail and fast forward today. Now, you are stepping up in performance. Tiny steps lead up to dream goals met. ❤
The winged keel, if my memory serves me correctly, was introduced to the sailing world in the American's Cup race in 1983 onboard the Australia II 12m boat. The keel was designed and tested in secret by Ben Lexcen in the Netherlands. Great Aussie/Dutch innovation!
For his 1983 challenge, Ben Lexcen revolutionised sailing yacht design with the creation of the winged keel. Described as 'upside down', the keel lowered drag, made the boat more stable and manoeuvrable, particularly in tacking.
Cheers guys live your videos,Tony Brisbane Australia 🇦🇺
Happy Anniversary! I think you guys made the right decision with the winglets. So stoked to see you guys out on the water with that beast of a boat! Cheers!
From your transition from RV to Cat Sailing to now designing a high performance Cat, meeting top designers and boat builders... You have become such experts. You can swim with the big fish now. 🐠. The science of boat speed is so mind boggling (engineering & physics). Love how they take the extreme strides and sneak them into a. Cruiser for improvements. So many decisions🥴 can't wait when you take off on the water. Blessings!
It’s the Wynns again this Sunday morning! Getting closer and closer to the final details done for this lovely boat! 👍😊🌸
She's going to be a terrific boat. I'm surprised you were talking about your concern on light wind. From earlier videos, to my understanding this boat's going to do just fine compared to earlier boats.
I agree, you made the correct choice here. The other issue with dagger boards not mentioned is that because they have to make them so strong to withstand those forces constantly that when you do hit something with one, you can end up with a hull breach because the dagger board case cracks which is an even more scary situation. I have a catamaran with dagger boards, and another with mini keels, you can guess which one I use for cruising!
I'm living vicariously through you guys! I can't wait til we're sailing again! 😂😂😂
Another wonderful feature of winglets is that they act like a shovel. So when the boat does run aground it digs in and anchors you to that spot so you don’t have to worry about going anywhere while you wait for a tow boat service to arrive and give them all your money!
I am here cheering you on knowing you did your homework and you know the use of your home- You got this! see you in a few Happy Anniversary
A super interesting video this week and a really great interview with someone who actually isn't in sales and knows their stuff - looking forward to seeing Jason going upwind with his hair on fire or maybe a Katniss Everdeen moment for Nikki 🤣. I really would like to know if the winglets are providing lift why are they symmetrical or do they not behave in a fluid like in air so angle of attack is more important? The other question and you sort of answered it is would simply putting on one electric motor make the real advantage of daggerboards in light wind irrelevant - you can effectively increase apparent wind with a bit more air speed so sail higher anyway and a small amount of added energy oversomes any drag deficit of the stub keel and improves lift efficiency, also as the motor is off-centre you reduce leeeway by adding a rotation vector to the hulls so improve vmg.
I look at this way... If you get dagger boards you have to know how to use them, and to be honest it adds complexity to every movement you make. I agree the winglets would be my decision as well. I would rather just know my draft is X and cruise into an anchorage and chill....
We had a wing keel on our monohull. At anchor I noticed wonderful breezes coming through from the cockpit and thought - that's not right....we should be bow into the wind. Current and wind cause our anchor line to wrap around the wing keel. LOL. Another time in the Bahamas we ran aground in a remote area 3' from depth.....we sat firmly on our wing keel all night while the water drained out below our seacocks - never tipped and then as soon as we felt water lapping the hull we kedged and motored over to the depth. LOL! Fabulous lifestyle!
Jason and Nikki, thanks for digging into the technical in a way that few other content producers do. You've kept the topic narrow, invited expert opinion, kept to to the idea that it is all personal preference and then added a nice dose of local color. The average viewer does not have the time or resources to go pick apart each of these topics to this extent. At the end of the day, despite all of the eco this's and thats, you've still got one of the most impressive pieces of plastic in the ocean, and you're not sanctimonious about it.
The main considerations for me were speed and safety, Dagger boards are safer when the shit hits the fan for real, pull them right up and have nothing to trip over, can not do that with mini keels. Large beam as well. I don't have an escape hatch.
Coating a dagger board with bottom paint while on the hard can be quite the procedure when they are 12 feet long or longer! Also, one would have to worry about barnacles and such jamming them in the trunks.
Woo hoo! Thailand!!
Happy Anniversary!! Interesting video with winglets and dagger boards. It’s amazing how far you have come in the sailing world, congratulations. Like they say the more information you can gather on a subject the better decisions can be made. Enjoy your time in Thailand and see you in two weeks.
Australia II won the America's Cup in 83 had the first Winged Keel seeing that keel started my love for sailing.
Great video, I was impressed that I actually understood 90% of what Eric was talking about especially the comparison of the winglet on the keel to the winglet on an aircraft. On an aircraft wing there is what's known as wing tip vortex (a swirling motion in the air as it travels off the end of the wing or wing tip), wing tip vortex creates more drag, more drag equals less speed. The keel acts the same way, it creates a vortex at the bottom of the keel, by adding the (horizontal) winglet, it prevents the water from rolling off the bottom of the keel and creating the vortex type flow with the water (I think that is called fluid dynamics, but I am not sure). Again fantastic video, and great choice in adding the winglet.
Wife and I had the same discussion you two had as we have a HH50 OC being built. I can see her in your videos as it is two over from where yours sit. It might have been the one you filmed the actual keel-winglet on within this video. We came to the conclusion as you two as we are cruisers and the cost difference was also a factor.
What is the difference in cost of the mini keel / wing and the straight dagger boards...?
@@pauldegan8324 They do not price it out individually...you either get the cruising version or the sport version. Sport version is full carbon hull, carbon mast & boom and carbon dagger boards. The cost of the upgrade package (sport version) from the cruising version is ballpark $350k-$400k USD. That is the figure HH has stated in the various boatshows. I'm not sure the price difference for the H44 that the Wynn's are getting as I can only speak to the HH50. But if I was guessing.... $300k USD
Your boat, your decision. Thanks for sharing. 😊
Wise decisions based on research, and knowledge that suits your cruising style and life. Best regards sent. Enjoy life, congratulations on your anniversary.
If you sail around the world with the trade winds, a dagger board would be in the up position most of the time and give no advantage. I think you made the right decision. I'm looking forward to a race against Parlay Revival. When winglets were introduced into the Americas Cup by Australia, it was a way to outwit the 12 meter rule. When the boat healed over, the winglets gave the boat a deeper draft than the boats without winglets, creating an advantage upwind. It was a brilliant move by the Aussies.
You're right that cruisers will have the daggerboards being in the up position most of the time. However, that doesn't mean they won't be providing an advantage. A dagger board in the up position produces almost no drag as opposed to a minikeel which, even with the best designs, will still produce quite a lot of drag. As for the winglets, to the best of my knowledge you are right about them being designed for and introduced on Australia II, however, the advantage doesn't have anything to do with outwitting rules or any particular length, it's simply a more efficient design for high speeds.
Thanks for covering this topic!! You made the perfect choice. You may or may not want to go faster (though I think you’ll go plenty fast), but I’ve never heard anyone wonder about whether they’d like to point better or more poorly. No one says, “ya know, for $5K, I just really would rather have worse VMG for all those years of sailing”. Very excited for you both!
I love the wings!
Absolutely, comfort and safety go first.
That was really interesting...loved Erik's perspective. And for me personally, it was cool to see them using some fluid dynamics software I worked on a few years ago!
All the small details will make it a fantastic boat.
Happy Anniversary guys.
Fun fact, in Auckland harbor there is an Americas Cup monohull that was the one which won, it's now a monument, the secret sauce was the use of a winglet. Next time you are there you can go and have a look at it on display there.
"Kiwi Magic" lost, actually. USA's Catamaran, with daggerboards, easily defeated the behemoth Kiwi boat. :) Meanwhile, it was the Aussies that introduced a wing keel to the 1983 Cup that proved victorious over the Americans. Thanks to Morrelli & Melvin, it's great to see Cup technology trickling down to cruising boats though.
@@TheSailingFamily out of curiosity, i assume you would choose the dagger board option....?
@@pauldegan8324 Maybe? I think this is a budget question, and at the moment I don't have the budget! But I am also from a racing background and I enjoy eking out every 0.1 knots from a boat. So yes, if I had the cash, why not!? :)
Happy Anniversary! Enjoy your week and cant wait to see your upcoming trip!
Happy Anniversary! Can’t wait til you guys are back on the water!!! So exciting
Sunday Morning Coffee with the "Wynn's", nothing better than this! What a learning curve on keels, dagger boards, efficiency, etc. It is so interesting to learn how much sailing has turned in the last 15 years. The only thing is when your guest Erik was discussing the wing tips of an aircraft that was a really silly remark, they are not just for aircraft to fit together. They serve a far more important Purpose. They improve the efficiency of the Aircraft! Just like your illustration at Min 6:12 said. This aspect has been in use in Aviation for at least 50 years. When I worked at Cessna Experimental Twin Division we were just incorporating it into the Citation 500 Jet and their brand new Designed twins Piston Aircraft. Glad you cleared that up. Happy Anniversary Jason & Nikki! Wow! Cannot wait to hear and learn about Thailand!
Excellente vido. I designed and built a 18' cat after high school (modeled after a photo of a 20' Tornado cat). I used my parents garage stud spacing for the hull bulkheads. Sailed it in Marina Del Rey and Mission Bay San Diego CA. I gained confidence in building anything in the future with this project. I went on to join the Peace Corps in Africa after taking a course in agricultural engineering.
Good choice! Can’t wait to see this boat in the water!
So glad you got wings! Awesome explanation of your decision process! As always, stay safe out there!
Love the videos on the details and systems of the boat. Keep them coming.
winglets are in general a much greater obstruction hazard when you get obstructed., you wont be slipping out of the mud or sand, you may not be sliding over fishing gear, you wont be bouncing of of bommies or seawalls in the same way. you're much more likely have a more serious impact, if.....if.. the winglets get involved. It's not like the wings run the full length of the keel. so maybe youll never notice. BUT, WINGLETS ARE THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF A SWING KEEL. i would guess it would be a decision between niche case of wanting to beach her occasianally, vs wanting the performance all of the time
Happy anniversary the original winged keel was designed by an Australian for the Americans cup in the 80s sometime back well thanks for another amazing vlog and a big gday mate from Australia 🇦🇺 and cheers 🥂
For my 2cents, You guys are cruisers, as you mentioned, and if you find yourself solo in the middle of the night and a blow pops up, the dagger boards are one more thing to possibly get wrong/forget to adjust. Fixed was definitely the right choice.
Live aboard a Gemini sailing cat. Has retractable center boards and retractable rudders. This arrangement allows the boat to be set on sand and dried out if necessary. Have never done this intentionally, but a couple of times accidentally. Being a shallow draft boat I regularly take it into skinny water (because I can) mostly to find anchorage space where others can't go. Consequently occasionally bump into things sticking up from the bottom. Luckily, never anything as solid as a large rock, and never while under sail (harder to stop). Each encounter resulted in a little noise and the board or rudder just pushing up out of the way. Never any permanent damage only scratched paint. I am a cruiser. The Gemini is NOT a racer, so it fits me perfectly.
Just my two cents😊
Good evaluation of the dagger board, etc.
I had a small 18 foot Buccaneer that I restored . The center board was fiberglass and broke off do to adding more sail area. I tried a wood CB with lead inserted 8 lbs circle glassed over it. I raced this little beast, but that also snapped in half. Then tried a full 1/2 inch Aluminum tapered shape 3 ft long. That worked but sailing in 15 to 25 knot wind it would shudder vibrate on a beam reach. Hiking out would clear that and you could feel counter force. Fast fun and my boys loved learning on that little beast. If you never sailed try a smaller daysail you may get hooked..
I got hooked sailing on an old 20’ Buccaneer with a long lead keel. Only 24” draft. And actually the rudder was a few inches longer. It would bump/drag first. Fortunately, with my inexperience I was sailing over either sand or mud on the west coast of Florida. Also, a plus to inexperience, so much weight below, if it heeled over too far it wouldn’t flip over before just turning into the wind and stopping. Had a blast learning on it.
Good to get on camera a competent naval architect👍. When a client says "I want this one thing", the architect has 40 things that are impacted by just that one thing you want and... a list of engineers to manage that change.
You can always go for a massage to get rid of all the stress - Enjoy your wonderful trip and thank you for the great videos
Happy Anniversary! Definately go to Koh Tao to go diving. It's so worth the journey!
For someone who has sone a lot of miles in both, dagger boards on a performance cat allow up to 8 degrees better windward performance, reduced drag off the wind, increased control and stability at speed and greater safety in storm conditions. So, your boat, your choice, but those shallow hard to access spots, no longer on your menu.
correct
Good choice, and liked the decision process explanation shared.
Love all this behind-the-scenes info!
Happy Anniversary guys, I hope your keel doesn't prohibit you from the more shallow areas of anchorages too much, where a removeable daggerboard would give you more clearance in those situations! Love your presentation and best of luck. Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
I think the first time you guys in the USA saw a winged keel was in 1983 when we took the cup off you. it was the first day in my life that I had a beer first thing in the morning, so proud to be an Aussie that day.
Happy Anniversary. Congratulations!
Great shot of dancing on the catamaran!
Great explanation of the mini keel. Another good reason for adding that appendage is that "winglet" is a fun word to say.
I think the fixed keel is absolutely the best way to go. Don’t give yourself the maintenance and management burden.
I agree with your decision . I don’t much about sailing but I feel you made the right decision. Sailing to me is not about speed but comfort and enjoyment and enjoying your time on the water. Why is everyone in a hurry. A few minutes doesn’t matter. Freeway mentality. I really watching you guys.
Totally agree with your choice of mini keels as apposed to dagger boards. Although boards would be great for max knots, too tempting to fly a hull.
You made the correct decision, I have a monohull but with a wing keel 4 foot draft, the keel performs better than most fin keels, but let’s me get into places, that other boats cannot get into. Under speed it really improves the handling greatly, only downside is lobster pots. Never had a problem fishing catching lines.
Congratulations on your aniversary. God bless. May you have many, many more.
I love how you two see something, discuss and research it before you make a decision as to whether or not it will benefit you in the long term. You will have an amazing home to take you anywhere, once you have finished building it.
Beautiful nice so you getting a nrw boat nice lovely cant wait to see back on the water miss you guys ❤
I think you made the right decision. And the smart decision. But I know I would have gone for the daggerboards, probably the curved ones if they were available. I just could not help myself.
Those mini keels eliminate a maintenance item from the list(daggarboard systems ), which is always advantageous on a sailboat because there's always something to check .
Been wondering about the dagger board thing. Thanks for covering
Hi yes i miss you guys miss seeing you during the week days shows but have a nice time on your anniversary good luck 😅🎉😂
Happy Anniversary! 💞👫💞
Happy Anniversary! I learned a lot from this video. As a non-sailor, I just assumed that catamaran == daggerboards needed. Really appreciated the interview/conversation with Eric, and the explanations by all of you.
I have sailed various cats without dagger boards nor keels, and they did upwind pretty well. It largely depends on the shape of the hull.
Nice choice! Can’t wait to see it sail
Something interesting I learned recently. The area where the Winglet connect to the keel produces quite a bit of drag. The drag is caused by the tight angle. If the put a radius in where the angle is this reduces drag. This was figured out on airplane wings and it was about a 10% gain in speed and a 10% gain in fuel economy. I don't know if this is the same for keels but the drag will still be true. You should ask. Now the down side. There's always a trade off😊 you lose a little bit of wing area with the radius.
Water is more dense than air.
I often wonder what the effect would be if the entire keel is curved in, or for complexity's sake, angled in, similar to how straight dagger boards will be angled in. Seems like you can get a little more surface area to bite with minimal draft penalty.
I’m just a full-time RVer here in a motorhome, but this process has been very interesting to watch. And there is a lot of correlation between boats and airplanes, which I am more familiar with. Thanks for the video.
So much for pointing high into the wind.
Lovin the technicalitys of the build videos👍
Love learning all about your new boat. Thank you, cheers!
Smart thinking process on the keel issues.
For every choice you make in life you will find those who are like minded and others who’s beliefs and opinions are polar opposites… At the end of the day this boat will be your home and your opinion is the only one that matters!! I love that you try to explain your choices so that your viewers can understand, but it’s your boat/home. So please do you and don’t stress over the opinions of others even if those opposing opinions are very vocal!! Love you guys and always excited to watch the next video! ❤😊♥️
You've chosen well!!! So much info shared here!! I love this learning experience, knowledge not shared any where else!!!! I can't wait to see your next adventure! Sending love Nikki and Jason!!❤❤
Thanks for another great video! Pilot here and just a quick comment on the comparison with aircraft winglets. Winglets are not added due to wingspan and space issues at the gate. Winglets are fitted for one reason only - to reduce induced drag which comes as a result of the lift generated by the wing. Basically air escaping around the wingtips from higher pressure below than above wing.
awesome video ty for sharing you decision in design of keel/ Daggerboards Boats coming along really well. Happy anniversary catch you in a couple weeks
You guys made the right decision going with the mini keels with winglets vs dagger boards based on all of the facts and how you use your boat I wouldn’t listen to the naysayers!
Thanks for sharing. Like 11K+ - Enjoy your anniversary!!
Good one guys , very informative.
I think you made the best choice for what you are going to do with the boat. I had this discussion with people on a boat in SF Bay yesterday. No boat is perfect for everyone. As you said neither is a car. I say Great call.
That was really fascinating video. Thank you. You guys enjoy your anniversary and have fun in Phuket. Will see you then. Safe travels and love from California.💜🫶⛵️😎🇺🇸
Maintenance would be my number one concern as a cruiser. I’m not gonna necessarily be in someplace where I can readily get the complicated pieces for intricate parts of the boat. I certainly wouldn’t want to be sailing around the Caribbean and hit a reef and then I have to call up the company in China to say hey, please make me a new dagger board and ship it to me halfway around the world. With the mini keel its lift, the boat do a little fiberglass work and you’re back in the water and if it’s the winglet, you may not even care so you could wait till you can get someplace to get it fixed proper. So I agree with you I think you made the best choice and I especially like that the winglet gives you the better performance without giving up draft.
Lots of info I didn't even know I needed🤣🤣🤣✌️💜
Great choice. I totally agree. Have a great trip and a wonderful anniversary!
Good compromise to fit you're use of the boat.
Based on your cruising requirements - I think you made a good decision.
When I hear people rambling on about performance; I never really hear them talk much about WEAR AND TEAR.
The harder you run most equipment, the more stress and wear you apply.
Curiosity is growing and becoming a beautiful lady! Enjoy Thailand, Wynns, have a good one!!
Winglets vs dagger boards... nice. Good video. And happy anniversary !
Take two weeks and smile... We'll be looking for you.
🖖😎, B Swift
Eric,,is one of the nicest guys. I’m just saying I didn’t notice him saying wetted surface area great info!I looked at a few HH boats and met Gino and the crew in Charleston. Love what they are doing. They would not install a v-drive transmission for me so I went with a Balance 526,also I didn’t like the import tax into US. Enjoy your custom boat, great decision. 35 yrs ago I didn’t like fin keel boats I only liked full keels,,,and I was anti Catamaran for many years people change ,I did. What seems important to you now will change. Just reef early. I wish you the best of weather in crossings to come.
Love macha tea...the right tea makes it.
Erik was good at explaining various aspects of appendages. Your own explanation discussing your decision making was very informative and made the issue much clearer. I have a boat with asymmetic foils and lifting rudders, I like the light weight and the ability to go into much shallower water. B M
Y’all did what you knew was best for y’all! Great decision and great video! Happiest of Anniversaries to you both! 🎊🍾🎉
Happy Anniversary! I agree with the mini-keels and winglets. I'm sure the boat will have all the performance you need (and more, probably) as live-aboard cruisers while keeping things simple.
Happy Anniversary ! I wish my boat was ready for launch so I could be your guide. Safe journeys from Montana !