But then again, I’m pretty sure 90% of Swedish homes are much better insulated from their inception. Our more temperate climate has led to lazy low housing standards.
@@thelaserhive3368 Doesn't really matter, my 1920s home isn't anywhere near modern standards. My heat loss requirement at about -17C is about double that of what the UK average is at in -3C. Yes, insulation is good for a heat pump to work efficiently, but isn't a factor of whether it works or not. Just comes down to running costs, our electricity is typically only about 20% more expensive than gas (not that we can get gas fired systems), but it does mean that there is really no scenario where a gas boiler would be the better choice over a heat pump.
We got a heat pump installed at the start of last winter and I don’t know why I didn’t do it years ago. The house has been really warm and with the batteries and the solar it’s worked out to be very cheap to run. Many thanks to everyone at fully charged for all your videos especially Dan’s videos of a year or so ago and also to everyone at YOUR ENERGY YOUR WAY for installing the system.
What a collection of weird replies. But I am glad as I get another opportunity to bum about how great heat pumps are. During the start of the cost of living crisis and the recent war in Europe gas prices doubled in a very short period of time … or was it tripled? Anyway our gas prediction for the year was to be very high. As I expect it was for many people in the country. During that time most people I know stopped heating their houses so I expect there were a lot of cold/damp houses. We allowed ourselves heating for a short while each night through the winter but really it was a waste of time. The house was cold and the washing never really dried. Like a lot of people who have been fed constant negative statements about heat pumps I was sceptical of course. I did some research and decided that if I was going to do it needed to check my insulation first. Turned out my house was not too bad other than a few leaky windows which were fixed very easily. I expect a lot of people will be in this position too but we are fed this stream of garbage that says our house will never work with a heat pumps. It’s simply not true. So I got a heat loss calculation and it turned out that I could have got a standard system fitted relatively easily but I went large a bit. I got a new water tank and increased a few radiators at the same time because it was going to have very little impact on the house and the larger radiators did not look bad at all. They were not that expensive really. Also we changed a few ugly ones for rather nice contemporary ones which really did make a few rooms looks a bit better. Again I wonder why I did not do that year an ago. Anyway the key to getting a heat pump is finding an installer you can trust. You need to have a sense that the heat loss calculators are accurate and that the system is right for your house. Long story short the system I installed was great. I now heat the house full time to a very nice standard of heat. We also have solar and battery and this is key to running costs. For the winter the system was about 1/2 the cost of the gas from the year before and we only ran the gas for an hr each day when we have the heat pump on all the time. The COP was around 3 in the winter and now we are in early summer the cop is just under 5. Now it’s summer the house cost me nothing. The solar and exports mean my electricity, car charging, hot water and heating (no need for that much in May time) is costing me literally nothing. My bill for this month will be negative £50 approx. I.e. I am in credit from my exports. I even charged the car today and added 60 miles range from the sun while still charging the battery and heating the hot water. Sorry but this is is much more about the whole package of sustainable tech but we decide that missing out on a couple of nice family holidays was worth the benefit of having a heating system that would last us for years. I would say to anyone thinking of getting a heat pump. Just start by having a look at your insulation, call a few installers and pick one you like. Get a heat loss calculation done and if you can afford it get a few larger radiators as this will make your cop or efficiency much better. The battery really helps to keep costs down as heap pumps can use a lot of energy during the day which is more expensive. Also get a time of use tariff as this helps keep the bills down. I love my system as will I think a lot of other people and over the coming 10-20 years the prices will drop and the old gas boiler will be consigned to the history books where it belongs.
I live in Norway and installed a heat pump 3 years ago. We get winters down to -25C and summers up to +35C and the heat pump keeps us comfortable and saves us money on electricity bills.
There are too many cowboy tradesmen in the UK who bodge installations and they are rarely held accountable. Tradesmen are more tightly regulated in Sweden so there are less cowboy tradesmen to bodge the jobs. People lose confidence in ASHPs because of all the cowboys bodging the installs.
You can do a terrible job installing one and still get £7500 from the government, so why bother doing a good job? MCS have put us in a total mess, avoid anyone accredited by them - total cowboys.
@@mev202Hahaha yea. But if you’ve ever work on a building site you will know it’s tradesman. Heat Geek is really exceptional on installation. Couldn’t recommend them more.
Your explanation of what a buffer tank is doesn't make any sense. Buffer tanks should only be installed if they are needed. They are not required. Heat pumps are most efficient when they're running continuously and not turning on and off. The buffer is there to help the heat pump stay running, not to allow the radiators to stay warm whilst the heat pump is off. A buffer tank also creates a small thermal store to aid the defrost cycle of the heat pump.
What triggered me the most was to separation buffer that they showed in one of the setups because it wastes a lot of energy and I hate this energy wasting tech which is only to make it easier for installers, but is completely useless If you have a Well desigend system
The BUFFER TANK mention also annoyed me. If you really want to learn about heat pumps properly go watch a few Heaf Geek videos. Buffer tanks are generally used to fix a poorly designed system.
Aren't heat pumps inverter driven so the turning on and off issue doesn't apply. I'm in Australia and about to get a dual heat pump system (central hot water) installed for 12 flats. They are Japanese Panasonic C02 with a COP up to 6.0
@@ForTheBirbs They are, but they can only modulate so low. It also depends on flow rates and other variables that should be taken into consideration during system design.
Thanks for the brilliant presentation from imagen and the expert panel. Talked to the manufacturers and installers. Was sceptical but now making the move to install one
in the middle of the heat pump process with AIRA. Got to say they are highly professional. They've taken care of everything. It sounds like the UK bureaucracy is slowing them down though. AIRA are dealing with planning permission, the EPC.
The problem is that renewables have and always will have an intermittency problem. You cannot store the energy to cover it especially as the energy requirement ramps up. Then when you accept that the next issue is the ability to ramp up generation and pretty much the only thing that can do that well is gas fired power stations and the less you use then the more they will charge when you do need them. The grid is a fine balancing act and not just a ring main that you can plug a few windmills in to. You are right that we should get away from the gas price but if we hit it too hard you are going to end up with punitive costs when you do need to fire them up again.
@@davideyres955coal fuelled power stations had hundreds of tonnes of coal STOCKPILED. Gas fuelled power stations have big storage TANKS on the network. Solar and wind turbines need the EQUIVALENT - battery energy storage. It's not rocket science. This should be mandated as part of granting planning permission. Madness not to.
Our heat pump replaced our old Oil Boiler, stieght swap, no rad mods, or pipes other than those need to connect to the system. We use a battery bank to run it, or our cr on the driveway depending on outside tempure. It makes for a much cheaper to run system and more importantly it keeps us warm. We live in mid Wales 3 bed detached home.
That was very useful. I was able to compile a list of a dozen questions from the points raised in that video, that I need to ask when I'm ready to make the jump for myself. I'll be improving my insulation first.
Insulation isn't necessary, but will help reduce the operating cost of any system. More insulation could reduce heat loss such that your radiators and heat pump don't need to be so large.
"As we see more and more renewables enter on to the grid, if you get a heatpump today, the benefits that you are going to get from it are only set to increase" Absolutely right - money well invested!
No. Because solar doesn't work at night and wind is also unreliable. So if you are happy to have no heating in November when it's dark and foggy it's brilliant.
@@rob19632 But in general terms the price of electricity will steadily drop over time, regardless of dark and foggy winters. It *IS* likely to go up in price in the short to medium term (10 yrs?) as new infrastructure is added but will drop after that
@@rob19632 There again we do have the building of the battery farms, charged by renewable, to maintain power as required. In theory, rpt theory we could build battery farms in any old place, old underground wartime facilities, warehouses on brownfield sites, barges on the Thames (other rivers are available), old docklands, middle of nowhere, wherever, then cobble them into local grids. What does muck up the above seems to be political will, or lack of, at a local level.
Another excellent episode. The guy from Aira really knew what he was talking about, and their ASHPs seem like quality. I have a Daikin, and it's fine, but I wish I'd known about Aira.
Had mine for four years. Absolutely no problems. Absolutely keeps the house warm even on the coldest nights. I'm baffled at the negativity I hear from my neighbours. My bills are lower than theirs, my house is warmer. After government grants the installation cost £2,300. What's not to like?
Your house is warmer than a gas boiler? I need a citation on that, every heat pump I've seen can barely heat water to 40 degrees celsius. A conventional combi boiler will easily do double that. It might be cheaper to run, but lets not spread lies about the performance.
@@KieranDevvs its warmer because for the same money, its on all day, not just a couple of hours in the evening. and the water in my water tank right now is 65C thanks to solar top up, but in winter the pump easily gets it to 50c. what are you on about?
@@wbjxfkwsklejfde34d Firstly, that's not how "warmer" works. You don't get to say because its more efficient, that means its warmer. Its not. Ok bud but a combi boiler will do 85 degrees easily. How is 50C or 65C greater than 85C? its not is it... You wouldn't claim a Toyota Yaris is faster than a Porche 911 because it does better MPG. Your argument literally equates to "The Yaris is faster because it does more miles per gallon of fuel so over the long run it wins". You're trying to be sneaky by putting personal finances in to the mix. Because their neighbour cant afford to run their boiler all night, you're claiming the heat pump wins. Well lets use me as the comparison. I can afford to run my boiler all year around all night long. Who wins in warmth now? Also, to reach 65C you need a £10k+ solar installation, that wont work on a cloudy day or in winter? Ok, so we then have to rely on the national grid power to top our water up. Electric heating for water is the most inefficient way to do so. So this installation cost has just doubled and we're still not at the output of a combi boiler and we have to rely on mains electric half of the year (at least in the UK). Not to mention we have to maintain these systems. A new battery bank every 5-10 years, new solar panels every 8-12 years. For every home in the UK? A boiler will last 5-10 years on average and costs a fraction of the price. If you took that £10k solar installation cost, and spread it over 10 years, you could double your gas heating bill. The economics just don't make sense unless the government subsidise it, to which we're all still paying for it, the cost is just hidden in our taxes. I'm not even against the idea. Just don't lie about the numbers. If you're trying to convince people of the idea, be honest about the real world performance and what we get as drawbacks and benefits.
@@KieranDevvs why be abusive? the water is warm enough. there isnt a benefit to it being warmer than 50. The house is warm because the way heat pumps work, they heat all the time. not just an hour each morning and evening. "for the same money" - i think thats relevent, because if it cost way more then it would be warmer for more. its warmer for less. solar makes it even better, and pays itself off in time.
@@KieranDevvs The house can feel warmer because the heat pump helps to avoid cold spots. Yes the heat pump sends out a lower temperature, but it is on longer. It is more efficient to run a heat pump overnight (paradoxically, this uses less energy than turning it off) so you end up with a generally warmer feeling. This experience is common amongst heat pump users, you just need to experience this. Also please note it is gas and oil that is heavily subsidised. Every year we pay the foreign gas giants billions for "exploration" which is many many times the cost of the BUS scheme. Meanwhile the renewable producers pay a windfall tax because their low cost means high profits under the artificially high electricity prices while the gas giants pay a far lower rate of tax. Moving the subsidy from gas to electricity/renewables would make heat pumps the obviously cheaper solution.
My house doesn't have gas, 2 bed semi, have fitted 2 mini split units (air con) Heats great in winter and cools in summer...heat pump tech...very cheap to run... both running in winter about 18p an hour combined....summer cooling 10p an hour combined.. Only one bill, one lot of standing charges 😊
You are right Imogen. These look way better than the other external heat pump units. We have had heat pumps for a number of years but always had pretty ugly units. Tell them to export to New Zealand please!
@@alanhat5252 Cosy 6 had its first customer install 9th Sept. First employee Cosy 10 install announced by Greg at Energy Tech Summit 2024. So can switch existing order or order now and ask for it, if a suitable semi-detach or modern well-insulated detached home. Subject to assessment.
The pay monthly approach is very smart. If you are saving £60 a month and you pay £60 a month for the system it won’t cost you more out of pocket. The planning situation in the U.K. is ridiculous, so outdated
Great to see heat pumps delivering through a wide temperature though I'd love to see a graph of COP across sthat range. Seems like they could do with thermal storage assistance.
I agree about the 'spark gap' - at the moment, the price differential between gas and electricity means that switching to a heat pump may save energy, but doesn't reduce your energy bill. The current crop of heat pumps are also rather large and cumbersome for retro fitting - even in my modern detached house......
Good question on grid impact. Pointing out the greater efficiency of heat pumps is a dodgy answer because in winter gas heating can consume 90% of a house's kWh. That makes "can the grid cope with an order of magnitude increase in the domestic load in winter?" a fair question. BTW I'm not knocking heat pumps. I have one, and it's great.
I have air to air heat pumps in my house (x3), I personally think they are way superior to air to water. Cheaper, quieter more efficient and no need for radiators or a water tank. Granted they dont heat my water, I still use a gas boiler for that (at the moment)but I use less than half a cubic meter of gas a day. What my air to air does do is reduce the humidity, filter the air and cool in the summer. The running costs are easily covered by my pv system so I have zero costs for my electric. On rainy days (so at the moment thats most days) my washing can be quickly dried indoors with no condensation or cost. Total cost for my 3 bed house for the system £6k (excl the solar). My neighbours say they cant tell if my system is running either on heat or cool. Helps enormously with my wifes hay-fever.
How do you know you're getting more efficiency out of it though? Air 2 Water has kit that consumers can use to accurately measure efficiency. As far as I'm aware you can only at best estimate efficiency or rely on technical specs.
@BenIsInSweden Hi, the company that installed the system also installs the air to water heat pumps, and they commented. I can monitor my electricity usage in real time also. Both systems work on the exact same principle, but air to air doesn't have to work as hard as air to water. Think electric kettle or hair dryer, which on gets up to temperature quickest?
@@Beorn. Electricity consumption is only one part of it. Heating up quicker doesn't mean less energy used either. R290 is able to capture more heat than R32, but R290 isn't possible in all but tiny split systems. There are also other factors like A2W having a much larger surface area for dissipating the heat, so can do so at a lower temperature. I have an A2A system with also a multisplit that can do my DHW as well. But whilst it's an efficient system, I wouldn't say an Air 2 Water system at my house would be less efficient.
I would happily switch over to an ASHP, but even though I live in a 2 bed semi, there is no where in my house to install the tank and nowhere to install the outdoor unit either. Rather annoying given I have pv and will be getting a battery installed in the next 6 weeks.
I was given the same selling arguments twenty years ago when I installed my pv solar panels - cheaper costs, payback in ten years, etc. Well, I have yet to recoup the installation costs after twenty years, and I am now experiencing system failures on a regular basis. The next failure will be the last straw and I'll shut down the system, it's just not worth the hassle.
It’s the size of the units that surprises me, they look huge. Having seen this one I can say I’ve nowhere to put one, unless I can place it 4-5 metres above my driveway on the wall … I’ve nowhere else to put it. Plus I’ve no space for the water heater and buffer tank in the house. Unless it goes in the loft (don’t have a garage)
Water cylinders can be small-see the Heat Geek Mini or placed in the loft, and you may not need a buffer cylinder. External unit may be more difficult though
I've got a heat pump installed in my property, it came with it when it was built. I'm still not sure if it actually does anything? We're a 3 bed semi, only 2 of us yet our consumption is around 450kWh a month on average? Not much different at all compared to the last house where we had a standard combi boiler.
Place some 44 gallon drums around your heat pump and paint them black. Fill them with water. Any sunshine that falls on them during the day will be emit some stored heat during the night. Make a reflective panel to shade it in summer to keep the unit cool.
Why is the "labour cost" -ie the cost excluding main materials ASHP and cylinder so high? The cost of an ASHP and cyliinder from plubers merchants seems about £5000. The labour cost seems to be £7500. for reference both Aira, Octypus are charging £12500? I'd like to install ASHP in home and office. Welcome others knowledge.
It still boggles me that heat pumps seem to be so controversial in the UK. Here in the US, even as atavistic as we tend to be, something like 20 million households now use heat pumps.
It would be great to see everything electric report on heat pumps suitable for apartments / flats! I would love a heat pump but I don't see anything suitable at this time for a first or higher floor apartments.
I guess this water based system is needed to replace the radiator based heating in the UK. Here in Norway most heat pumps have been air to air types. My parents got an exhaust air heat pump system where the hot water tank and the floor heating is all connected. They barely use any energy for hot water and heating in an 80m2 apartment.
Hmm... I do feel the representative from Aira rather dodged the question from Imogen: "can the grid cope with all this electricity that heat pumps will use?" "heat pumps use less energy overall than boilers do" That's not the same as "yes, the grid has plenty of capacity" or "heat pumps use less electricity than gas boilers do". I have just looked up the power requirements of a Grundfos circulating pump. It peaks at 60w. The boiler as a whole will not take much more than that. I believe that most heat pumps, if they are set up well, will use about 400w constant. I think that is likely fine, the grid can cope with everyone running their kettles in the advert breaks, so we can certainly cope with 400w. But he did not answer the question.
From Wikipedia: The UK grid "Maximum demand was in 2005/6 at 63 GW (approx.) (81.39% of capacity)". Demand rarely goes above 40GW these days even in the worst days of winter. There is plenty of network capacity, and more is being added and can continue to be added if demand increases. National Grid have made it clear they can cope.
@@AdamCiernicki I didn't know every person in the middle of winter runs their PCs, TVs and sound systems continuously .. Day and night (the latter of which, and I hope you're aware of this, facilitates a sum total amount of solar power of exactly 0W). Thanks for enlightening me.
Luckily a lot of adopters are also getting solar and battery storage, so not all the demand will fall to the grid. Equally those changing from storage or other electric heating will reduce their electricity demand. Interesting times. I hope to change to a heat pump solution in the next few years.
I'm in Sweden. Heatpumps DO work. Some in the comments say they don't... Our 2012 built 180 m2 house uses 6000 to 8000 kWh electricity per YEAR to keep warm, AND 25% of that is for hot tap water! Our 1959 house with district heating used 20-23 000 kWh and it was smaller. Every house in this area uses heat pumps, some combine it with geothermal. We had -36.6°C (officially at the airport and --38C here) this winter, so... Yes! Heatpumps work - just look at your refrigerator and freezer - SAME TECHNOLOGY
At -36C for sure have a back up like an electric element to compensate. No heatpump works efficient below 20C. The Mitsubishi heatpump for cold climate is probably the onlyone to push for -25C with 80% efficiency.
@@dragandrag24 yes, if the heat pump is exposed to that temp on the cold side. Our heatpump draws energy from the ventilated air, which is 20-22C, and ejects it much colder to the outside. -10 or colder when working hard. The lost heat in extreme cold is added by the electric heater in the system, but of course a separate air to air heatpump can provide even cheaper heat for the temps above -20C or so, as can a wood burning stove. The proof of the efficiency is indeed the yearly consumption which is amazingly low, as I posted. Well insulated house, triple glacing and internal blinds that can cover the windows and add an extra insulation at night and extreme cold. 50-60 cm rockwool in the ceiling, 37 cm in the angles roof, some 25-30 cm in the walls. Airproof layer inside the insulation.
Insulation will reduce the running cost of a heating system, and may reduce the changes you need to make, but heat pumps most likely can be installed without insulation changes.
That can be achieved using a 'volumizer' tank plumbed into return feed to HP (one inlet, one outlet used), my 27 litre volumizer tank on my smaller system is there for just that purpose, to provide a body of water for a defrost cycle when needed. A 'buffer' is plumbed as a hydronic balancing unit which allows the HP to circulate water at a flow rate it is happy with, and the heating system can recirculate water at a rate it is happy with (two inlets and two outlets used).
Here in New Zealand around 50% of homes now have a heat pump. At the same time, around 80% of our grid is powered by renewables. Although unlike Europe, most of our heat pumps are air based heat pumps rather than heating radiators. I feel like New Zealand is left out in Fully Charged/Everything Electric discussions! 😢
Scandinavia is mostly air-to-air as well, I think. In Norway we didn't bother with gas once we found out those waterfalls we have everywhere are very useful (just like NZ) so homes don't have radiators or gas pipes, but rather went from firewood to electric heating to heat pumps.
New Zealand is a two day flight from the UK .A few Europeans on a Island far away are you surprised? Are the majority of your properties wood build and no radiators like in the UK?
@@foppo101 you don’t need to fly here to know what’s going on lol. Although Robert is just across the ditch during summer 😉 Our new builds are mostly wooden framed with some having metal frames. And no, as I mentioned, radiator based heating is rare outside of commercial buildings
Interesting, like the idea of paying monthly and no upfront cost. I see from their web site they are favourable to microbore as well which a lot of companies, including Octopus wont install on.
@@ralpharmsby8040 My combi boiler was £1000 Ten year quarantee.So I have £2.780 spare for a few years or more.Iam not going to mess about with a heat pump at 74. Three Bedroom detached house.
The only thing I know about heat pumps is my neighbour across the road has one - installed a couple of years ago. I went out of the house at 5am (I live in a very small village) and it was a 'what the hell is that noise' moment. It was his heat pump running. My oil boiler is whisper quiet, even when firing. Just imagine a whole estate running. Noise abatement anyone? Maybe I'll wait a while.
Buffer tanks are generally not needed according to HeatGeeks, maybe speak to them about what's required with heat pump installations before speaking about them.
That what I understood from watching @HeatGeek also….but there has to be an explanation as to why Aira have it in the heating system ‘package’. Is it to standardise, making their offering applicable to a wider range of homes? I’m curious.
Buffer tanks do not reduce efficiency, don't take everything heatgeek says as gospel. Think of a buffer like a battery, it stops short cycling of the heat pump in lower demand periods and can be used to great affect with time of use tariffs by over heating the buffer when energy is cheap and then using that heat later when it's needed and the energy is more expensive. They are also used on a low volume or fully zoned system to help with defrost cycles.
@@markbarrett2321 HeatGeeks suggest its not necessary in most situations so to install it regardless is just bumping up the price, they generally have the data to back up their claims.
@rtfazeberdee3519 and a battery doesn't help the house with efficiency, but paired with other things like time of use tariffs will aid in lowering bills. The other thing you fail to realise is to get any grants in the UK you must comply with MCS and to comply with MCS you must abide by manufacturers instructions, which if they say you have to have a buffer tank then you have to have one or don't get any grants. So companies are just doing things by the book.
Why are hot water pipes still being made out of copper? Not only is it expensive and rusts quickly to green copper oxide but it is a fantastic heat conductor. If you want to transfer heat in the form of hot water from A to B in a pipe you wouldn't make it out of a really good heat conductor you would make it out of a really bad heat conductor and even think about adding additional thermal insulation around it.
its the noise I dont like, our neighbour has two of them stacked one above the other on the outside of their new extention right next to our patio on the other side of our fence and the racket of the fans is unbelieveable the noise pollution is unecessary in a nice quiet rural area, imagine one in every garden in the UK the little rural towns will be actively buzzing with noise pollution every single day and night. we have had a quote done for a heat pump and we are told is just wont work for us because there isnt enough ground source heat stored in the ground for winter use so we might as well just have electric powered heating and we are not going back to storage heaters again.
It was almost believable until I got to "and we are told is just wont work for us because there isnt enough ground source heat stored in the ground for winter use so we might as well just have electric powered heating and we are not going back to storage heaters again." Then I just realised you had been completely misinformed, there is more than enough heat in ground and air (much cheaper)
Yes the noise is my biggest concern. Our neighbours are close. Our houses are small . If one of them has a heat pump running it will be noticeable but if many of them do it will be intrusive and unavoidable. I’m dreading it.
My heat pump has been botched an I paid £18k for the privilege, the total cost was £23k - the £5k grant. I really need someone that know what they are doing to assess the installation.
Marc makes a crucial point at the end, which in summary is that living costs are lower for wealthy people than for the least well off. It starts with being a Tenant, which means a lack of control over energy decisions (waste reduction or production) as well as higher monthly costs and a reduced ability to save for investment.
You are incorrect. The muliplier for Electricity was 2.5 - 5 times the cost of gas pre 2019. Since the adittionak taxes and charges have been added the cost is now over 4 times the gas cost and up to 5 times at the current Octopus tracker rate.
I am a fan of heat pumps, however the planning system is there to protect neighbours interests and privacy. Heat pumps generate a lot of noise, which is a consistent low frequency hum, this gets much worse as they get older and can have a serious impact on neighbours lives. Yes the planning system needs to be improved, but great care needs to be considered in locating the unit when in close proximity to your neighbours…. We do need to make this transition, but I would only ask for great care in choosing the location of the unit….
2:41 - using “over 400% efficient … from an energy perspective” just sounds like marketing drivel. Better to phrase it as “it pulls 3x the amount of energy from the environment as you put in in electricity, giving you 4x the heat as you would from that amount of electricity in a traditional electric system.” (could be extended by “it does this by exploiting the difference in heat between its cooled fluid & the ambient temperature, so it works down to sub zero temperatures, like a Swedish winter”) Of course a gas boiler is
Hi Everything Electric. Can you encourage suppliers, including Aira, to be more transparent about pricing. GCH systems will have radiators designed to run at 65 degrees so heat pump will need more or larger emitters.
Looking to switch my mothers home to a heat pump and get rid of the NG furnace. Has anyone had good experiences with brands available in Ontario, Canada?
I’ve had one in a 1960s house for over 10 years now. Retro fit onto existing rads. Works just fine, because it was designed correctly. The real problem in the uk is poorly educated heating engineers. I had 9 companies quote, 7 said that heat pumps don’t work and that I should just upgrade my Oil boiler. They were WRONG.
I'd love to have a heat pump but all my research points towards the installer being the make or break. With the government grants in place there's a rush to get ASHP installed as fast as possible. My concern is what happens when the grants end and the companies springing up have all gone. Will we see a PPI claim storm? And what about the end users stuck with a system poorly installed and poorly set up. Again my research shows that the customer has to have a fair amount of knowledge and input to get the best out of the system. I'm not convinced our housing stock or end users are anywhere near ready for ASHP. I hope I'm wrong but I think the next few years will be very interesting.
Definitely need a competent installer. People need to do some due diligence. I’d start at looking at Heatgeeks. They guarantee scops and if they go bust another heatgeek trained company will sort it out.
You could always buy from a bigger company that will be around to guarantee the warranty period. I went with British Gas, free survey (in my case detailed survey giving heat loss, radiator sizes etc, this might be a two stage procedure now), price match guarantee, guaranteed to heat home as detailed in survey, or money back, and they take on manufacturers five year warranty 🙂 As it turned out they appear to have designed and delivered a good working system that I am pleased with.
@@_Dougaldog - I agree thats the sensible route to ASHP. After having several quotes for ASHP, only the BG surveyor was honest enough to tell me my property wasn't suitable for a heat pump without a lot of remedial work. All the others were just out to flog me a system and pickup the grant. I asked the BG surveyor his opinion on the properties he regularly surveyed and he was quite candid in his reply. He spent as much time revisiting BG installs trying to fault find as he did looking at new installs. The primary problem being older properties with poor insulation and a heat pump that could never reach a comfortable level of heating due to heat loss. So I'll have a condensing boiler fitted before this winter.
@@PaulRansonArt My problem if any was (HP is in 'soft off' mode now, i.e heating off but still heats HW each day) too much heat in March as temperatures outside fluctuated quite a bit. No problems with heating even when below zero outside, my house is modestly insulated, returning a COP of 4.24 since installation in February. Running at a steadty400W when 7C or even cooler outside, no cycling at all, living room 21-23C, bathroom 22-24C, others 18-20C.
No. Our mid-terrace Victorian house would need a complete redesign to accommodate the pump (planning restriction where you can place it) the new hw tank as it has to be a certain distance from the pump. The new radiators required due to the system pressure. So I’ve now done all I can. Solar, battery, insulation & replaced windows.
A house 5 doors away on the other side of the road has a heat pump , we now have to keep our bedroom windows closed in the night because the noise from the heat pump keeps us awake Will be unbearable if everyone has one
I had one installed this February because I was fed up of corrupt leaders and countries dictating what I pay. Luckily I could afford on top solar and therefore moved to octopus Agile and wow. It is just the cost saving is whilst not massive it is worth it but it just works and when weather now, warming the water is so cheap and easy now, I reckon 35p a day and no standing Charge.
The big problem with back-fitting heat pumps to older properties is the need to swap out radiators, cylinders and so on to cope with the much lower flow temperature. Worst case is that microbore pipework would have to swapped out as well if the flow rate is unable to make those bigger radiators deliver their full output. As an example, my 1990's build house needs a flow temperature of 65 C on the coldest days of winter. A heat pump could supply that but would be woefully inefficient at that temperature, so to bring it down to 45 C my rads. would need to be much larger.
Which you'd also need to do to get any of the condensing gas or oil boilers to actually condense or run anywhere close to the advertised efficiency. We had the microbore piping ripped out and replaced, installed new radiators and installed a heat pump, removed the boiler and oil tank. Installers were really disappointed because they didn't quite finish in five days. They had one extra morning to finish up the full commissioning of the system. Edit: In my 1860s house with 1980s central heating
@@johnmckay1423 My radiators micro bore piping is 42 years old.Radiators same age.I replaced one radiator in the dining room a tall one with good heat output.Combi boiler new £1000.Radiators are 70c in winter.I probably this year will replace the two radiators in the living room but both are still working fine.I used to drain the system once a year and added protection in the system.Getting to old now at 74 to mess about to much.My brother in the Netherlands has a heat pump underground pipes.It is a brand new house.A small engine room in the dining room where the storage cupboards are.Can't say Iam that impressed.
Octopus have told me today, 8 months after I paid my deposit, that my home can’t have a heat pump because it has both underfloor heating and radiators. Their solution was to install a radiator in lieu of connecting the underfloor to the system, which I politely declined. If this scenario can’t be managed what chance do we have? Oh well, after eking out my remaining oil over the winter I suppose I’d better order some more, and get the old boiler serviced 😢
That's Octopus for you, they get so cheap because they are not flexible. Other suppliers will fit a heat pump and your underfloor heating will be a big benefit.
We have microbore underfloor pipes so we need "hot" water to go through them. It would be very expensive to change all the pipes (ugly!) & radiators to accommodate a lower temperature system.
I have microbore pipe so have been looking to see if I could have a heat pump or not. Reassuringly there are a few people on YT who have heat pumps with microbore that are getting 400%+ COP. One is "James Rattray" in a 1930's house getting 400% COP and there "Upsidedownfork" who's in an early 2000's house. Both guys have done some very detailed breakdowns of what was involved. So it is possible, just depends on the design from what I can gather and it wouldn't put me off changing to a heat pump when the time is right.
Currently on 440% with our 10mm microbore, but only recently installed and not working at max efficiency yet (it’s only doing hot water right now). In winter, when heating comes on, this will increase. So microbore on its own is not necessarily an issue to high efficiency, just needs good design
Yes most of Sweden have heat pumps BUT no one explains that unlike the UK Europe actually has well build insulation homes for centuries unlike in the UK, most home are build before the 1950s where most homes are solid wall.
The tired old insulation argument. My insulation in my 1920s home maybe better than the UK's temperatures, but in -18C my heat loss is double that of the average UK home, and mine work just fine.
I have a heatpump and I’m delighted with it. However the question put in this clip was, will the grid cope? The answer given about heatpump efficiency versus a gas boiler didn’t answer the question it answered a different question to do with energy used to heat a house. The other point which I as a heating engineer agree with is yes a heatpump can heat any house but and it’s a big but some older properties will require a complete reinstall of the heating system or the use of a less efficient high temperature heatpump. Older properties will also need a huge upgrade to the insulation and that could well be cost prohibitive. It should be remembered that Scandinavian countries because the are so cold, have far better insulated houses.
Cost is still the biggest issue. Average install cost for heat pump in UK is 14K so even with BUS grant the cost is 6.5K.This is almost three times the average cost of a replacement boiler. I think the cost of switching to a heat pump has to be similar to replacing a new boiler in order to take off in UK. Until then uptake is going to be very slow in the UK.
The lions share of that is switching to low temperature heating, which would reduce gas usage as well. Difference being is it is what heat pumps excel at. Heat pumps already can work with high temperatures as well, just the current energy prices in the UK make it far less attractive, as the heat pump efficiency will be lower.
Unfortunately in UK the cost benefit can’t really be used due to the way Gas is subsidised and electricity isn’t. Also as the guy said the planning permission restrictions need to updated and the ECP’s are also not fit for purpose. I will get a heat pump but now is not the right time in the UK.
2 important differences between Scandinavia and UK... Firstly, over 60% of their installations are A2A, which is actively discouraged by our government, and secondly, the air is much drier so defrost cycles are less problematic.
I still get the UK sweet spot of about 3C and 95% humidity, over here and they work fine. A2A over here is mostly due to in the 70s Central (oil) wet systems being ripped out for electric radiators, because of the oil crisis, and electricity being cheap. So A2A is a much more attractive prospect over A2W. A2W is still very much recommended, but for my home, it would come to the tune of over £30K for a retrofit.
The government don't 'actively' discourage A2A installation, in fact they reduced the VAT on them to zero, but that's the only perk. Politicians in general have often assumed they are air conditioning systems that only cool, that includes green politicians like Caroline Lucas. Also the MCS certification system that oversees design and installation doesn't recognise A2A which is another reason why they don't get subsidies. Totally agree it needs an overhaul though.
Countries with an extensive gas grid, such as the UK, the Netherlands and Germany, have historically been slower to adopt heat pumps. Scandinavian countries with very limited gas grids, such as Sweden, Norway and Finland, have among the highest rates of heat pump penetration
How do they cope in coastal areas where there are regular strong winds and salty atmosphere? I get severe corrosion on the metal component of modern upvc window systems after 3-4 years so would not expect them to last long.
My house cannot have a heat pump because there is no space in the airing cupboard to store hot water and no space outside to place heat pump on the wall. You needvto create a heatpump combi boiler or create a new gas boiler with over 100% efficient and a chamber for organic matter to absorb the CO2.
The water cylinder can be smaller in the form of a Heat Geek Mini. You may still have problems placing the pump outside though. Tech should improve for that though.
That was such a crap answer to the grid capacity. Just ignoring additional electrical us which will need more infrastructure to meet the need of that additional load. Plus you don’t need a buffer tank it reduces the efficiency of the SCOP. Heat Geek has done a video on this.
@mrfr87 Seeing Heat Geek mentioned, I thought I'd go and see what sort of money we're talking about. I have an oil combi boiler. Electricity, no gas. Estimated Savings CURRENT PROPOSED Performance info 80% Act 88% 350% Guaranteed Minimum Energy unit rate info 6p oil 24p electric (its actually 28p round here) Annual running costs £780 £720 Annual CO2 at point of use info 2,390 kg 0 kg Savings £60 per year an annualised estimate, based on your system's performance after the upgrade And this after a bill of £12,819 for the install. After grants etc £5,319 to be paid by me. I could buy a lot of oil for that and even have a new boiler installed. Economics of a mad house. Think I'll wait for electricity prices to fall.
They forgot to mention that @ 70°c your efficiency has gone out of the window & you will only get this temperature from a r290 unit that is only available currently as a monoblock system in the uk. The way to get the "efficiency" from a air to water is to flow a lot of water @ a low temperature like 35°c so basically you require underfloor heating, large radiators with larger bore pipes making retrofit on a house with 15mm/microbore pipes a real headache. Interviewing a salesman was not the best way to get a honest opinion on this technology
Its not about the temperature in the UK its about the planning laws it can't be within 1 metre of the boundary it needs to pass the MCS 020 sounds rules which are very difficult to pass and every installer needs a 100amp supply to the home. But try to get an air conditioner installed (an air source heat pump!) and almost none of these rules apply,
Something not quite right there, MCS 020 sound limits are not difficult to achieve, my house has a 60 Amp main fuse, at very worst my HP pulls 2.8kW for a very short period when heating HWC, other than that it can tick away quite happily at 400W 24/7.
@@_Dougaldog we have had 5 installers (3 heat geeks) around to quote for a ASHP everyone has required us to get an upgrade to our 60amp fuse to at least 80amps preferably 100amps. Our DNO has a dedicated contact specifically for these upgrades. As for the mcs020 we had one heat pump (7kw Valiant) pass all others failed at 4m from our neighbours house (the new Bosch will likely pass to now but it wasn't available when we tried). We live in a regular semi detached home if we struggle to get permitted development for an installation and needed to fork out for planning permission on top of the huge price to install even after a grant I understand exactly why Britain can't install enough heat pumps
0:00 that overview of a suburban area... imagine all the areas like that in Britain having most houses have solar panels, batteries, and heat pumps. The transformation of the whole energy system of the country would be immense. And that's with today's tech. Seriously, we could be so very much further along if today's tech was actively implemented. i.e. continuous state subsidies for installing all these things (oh, and to insulate people homes too, obviously).
The elephant in the room with heat pumps is that you can't just replace a combi boiler without also solving hot water - which means installing a massive tank. Finding space for that inside the home is non-trivial.
Sunamp have a heat battery. The only problem is that it needs high flow temps. So you need a High Temp heat pump and with high flow temps you get lower efficiency.
Sorry there is still a lot of jargon going on in this video. All people need to know is if it is the same or better than a boiler and if it will work in low temperatures.
There is no point in changing your heating from gas, if the electricity is produced from gas. We also need to know the COP at -25C with 35C flow, its not going to be 4.7. Or at what outside temperature that cop is achievable.
In NE Scotland National Grid ESO App' tells me electricity is 73% wind, 25% Hydro, and 2% gas. More often than not, it is zero gas usage. In fact if you check that App', you'll see that gas is often well down the list and not top as many assume. Depending on electricity region. On the coast here, average January temperature was 2.8C, unless you live in Ballater or Braemar I doubt you'll ever see -25C.
@@egocd Because that's what they advertise as the spec. while also advertising a COP of 4.7. The cop varies according to the difference between the hot and cold side. If its not at -25 then what is it at? W_B data sheet shows typical a COP of 3 at +7C/35C flow temp, which means you are looking at below 2 around 0C and worse for humid conditions, and of course your output is terrible meaning the HP needs to be on 24/7. You are lucky to get 4kW from a 7kW system. Thermal storage with cheap dynamic tarif would be far cheaper.
I think you could apply your closing statement to any renewable form of heating Imogen, to be fair. While I accept that heat pumps are a marvelous use of electricity when designed and fitted well, I'm still ,frankly, traumatised by the horror stories of bad installations though. If AIRA take all that away and deal with everything from start to finish and keep up a relationship with you after installation making payment easier I find that encouraging. Now the only problem which remains and I don't know how to fix is where the heck does all that kit go in my 1950's semi? I need to get the loft boarded I guess but I really didn't want heavy water storage tanks up there again. Actually that's not the only problem. The one that's insurmountable is that I could not cope with the disruption involved in getting it all done. So much pipework, radiators finding somewhere to put it all, I've only got a combi at the moment. Then the biggy: clearing out the junk that's accumulated in my house for twenty years since I've been ill! Plus as far as I can gather to make any of this viable it seems I need to get solar panels too, more expense. Except I'll get less from them in the winter when the heat pump is most needed so I guess I'll need a battery too....where does that go? There are places outside in the jungle (!), I even have a linked out building jam packed full of junk I no longer have the strength to deal with. However all the wall space is in full sun and gets absolutely blasted with heat in the summer months, can a battery cope with that? Can a heat pump? We really want to make the transition to renewables, we got a used EV even though we can't charge at home because eventually the council will put in AC chargers near us.... when they get DNO approval. The rest of it is so hard, I am looking into infrared but I've seen horror stories about running costs which I'm reserving judgement on. I believe you need to get the right regulators and they work a bit more efficiently. Will no maintenance costs and easy installation alleviate the higher usage costs? As the summer comes I will start approaching companies and talk to them direct. Have them come and wade through the chaos of my life and see who I believe can help me the most with the least disruption and the easiest way to pay. AIRA is now on the list if they're up and running here now?
I've the same problem here, the house is stuffed. Also, I need desperately to improve the insulation before a heat pump can be considered, but I can't find a single builder with a good reputation willing to come and do that, they're all WAY too busy. Only dodgy cowboys left who are looking for work.
@@ianstewart7605 I've decided I'm going to get the loft boarded and shelved with extra insulation underneath. There's a local company I've communicated with today that has very good reviews and does free no obligation, no hassle surveys to quote. I'll get a new hatch and steps up there too, I'll have to employ somebody to help me clear up and get stuff packed away up there. Then I'll get AIRA round to have a look at my situation and see what it involves and how much to get solar and their heat pump. If that all seems too much for me to cope with I'll get Jigsaw and a couple of other infrared companies round to give a quote. Oh and my house is metal framed so I won't be putting insulation in the cavity wall. I have a feeling that may stop me getting the govt grant in which case it will be infrared and solar./battery storage anyway. I checked out Aira's website and they seem to be up and running in this country, I like the sound of their guarantee and aftercare. Then of course there's the windows need replacing or maybe renovating, I wonder if that's cheaper...all this and no money to speak of but it's fun planning! 😅
I am very concerned about the noise pollution from heat pumps. A house near me has one at the front of the house and I can hear it from the end of the driveway. I would hate to live next door. If the noise was going to be coming from every house in the street it would be very intrusive and unavoidable.
I have 3 on my house, 2 below my bedroom window and Iam very sensitive to noise when sleeping - my cats can wake me up just by walking into my room. No issues for me at all. Modern, properly installed ones aren't noisy.
They are 40 to 60 decibels apparently- the same as my dishwasher, or someone speaking. I really don’t think they will be suitable for terraced and semi detached houses, or even detached ones that are close together (many modern ones in the U.K. are less than a metre apart).
@@juliebrooke6099 can they though? they're further away, typically behind a wall. One of my friends lives on a caravan park in the Uk with a heatpump/ac attached to her caravan (so not insulated like a house). Had the AC going multiple times last week when visiting, and wasn't disturbing at all whilst watching TV, and it was just on the otherside of the wall.
Country what most people would have you believe most terrace houses need a high energy system as of solid wall & too expensive to insulate also these homes just have nowhere to store a water tank so unless I heat pump is just the size of a boiler and that's it most terrace homes cannot have a heat pump currently.
At the moment no. The prices are coming down and with the BUS grant its tempting but its still really expensive. My last quote for a Vaillant HP with british gas was £13,500 before grant which makes no sense whatsoever. I can buy the Vailant HP and cylinder for £5500 and then replace a few rads myself.....where the hell is the rest of my money going. I had a whole gas combi central heating system installed with radiators for £3500.....granted that was a while ago.
I had a survey done by Octopus with a view to getting a heat pump. My house is a standard 3 bed semi, built around 1916, but is well insulated, has an A energy rating, and was deemed a suitable candidate. They reported that the radiators would need to be upgraded (which was expected and fine), but there wasn’t enough clearance for the heat pump at the side of the house (1.6m vs the required 1.8m) and the airing cupboard was too small to receive a suitable water tank. Given those facts, Octopus declined to proceed. My point being that if my, well appointed and insulated house of reasonably generous proportions is deemed not suitable, then until there are more pumps and water tanks compatible with existing housing stock, the rollout isn’t going to get very far.
Smaller water cylinders are available, perhaps with another installer-see the Heat Geek Mini. Hopefully clearances will change over time, and do vary by pump.
I have a friend with one. He hates it and constantly complains about the electric eating heating. I would need to spend thousands upgrading my house to make one worthwhile. That being said. For newer homes that are well insulated they seem to be worth it.
It’s a bit of myth that houses need to be new. I’ve got a 50’s terrace and it works great. It’s cut my bills in half, especially when coupled with solar.
He didn’t answer the question about the grid being able to cope. He talked about energy not electricity. Don’t do that to us fully charged. You are better than th at!
A typical politicians answer. Give the answer that makes themselves shine. Not the one asked. It’s so disingenuous of these single company vids from FC. Sad!
They glaze over it because it's a non-issue. Trying to move electricity from one place to another is not a new technology and we are constantly increasing grid capacity already through regular maintenance and infrastructure projects. Also there's time, "a heat pump in every home" won't be a reality overnight.
He did say: ‘One of the benefits of a heat pump is that it pulls less electricity overall’…than a gas boiler. About 3 mins. I may have misunderstood this.
"In Sweden 60% of homes have a heat pump" - I'll be using that hard fact for sure when someone tries to claim heat pumps don't work. Thanks!
Not just Sweden, either. All Nordic Countries use them extensively.
You can also point out that the heat pump in your freezer has no problems working at -18c
But then again, I’m pretty sure 90% of Swedish homes are much better insulated from their inception. Our more temperate climate has led to lazy low housing standards.
@@thelaserhive3368
So if your homes aren't insulated decently then your present heating system must be very inefficient with a lot of heat losses???
@@thelaserhive3368 Doesn't really matter, my 1920s home isn't anywhere near modern standards. My heat loss requirement at about -17C is about double that of what the UK average is at in -3C.
Yes, insulation is good for a heat pump to work efficiently, but isn't a factor of whether it works or not.
Just comes down to running costs, our electricity is typically only about 20% more expensive than gas (not that we can get gas fired systems), but it does mean that there is really no scenario where a gas boiler would be the better choice over a heat pump.
We got a heat pump installed at the start of last winter and I don’t know why I didn’t do it years ago. The house has been really warm and with the batteries and the solar it’s worked out to be very cheap to run. Many thanks to everyone at fully charged for all your videos especially Dan’s videos of a year or so ago and also to everyone at YOUR ENERGY YOUR WAY for installing the system.
How much did that cost .
@@rob19632 Probably about 50 years of heating at COP of 1.
💩
The house has been really warm? What on earth did you have before the Heat Pump?
What a collection of weird replies. But I am glad as I get another opportunity to bum about how great heat pumps are. During the start of the cost of living crisis and the recent war in Europe gas prices doubled in a very short period of time … or was it tripled? Anyway our gas prediction for the year was to be very high. As I expect it was for many people in the country. During that time most people I know stopped heating their houses so I expect there were a lot of cold/damp houses. We allowed ourselves heating for a short while each night through the winter but really it was a waste of time. The house was cold and the washing never really dried. Like a lot of people who have been fed constant negative statements about heat pumps I was sceptical of course. I did some research and decided that if I was going to do it needed to check my insulation first. Turned out my house was not too bad other than a few leaky windows which were fixed very easily. I expect a lot of people will be in this position too but we are fed this stream of garbage that says our house will never work with a heat pumps. It’s simply not true. So I got a heat loss calculation and it turned out that I could have got a standard system fitted relatively easily but I went large a bit. I got a new water tank and increased a few radiators at the same time because it was going to have very little impact on the house and the larger radiators did not look bad at all. They were not that expensive really. Also we changed a few ugly ones for rather nice contemporary ones which really did make a few rooms looks a bit better. Again I wonder why I did not do that year an ago. Anyway the key to getting a heat pump is finding an installer you can trust. You need to have a sense that the heat loss calculators are accurate and that the system is right for your house. Long story short the system I installed was great. I now heat the house full time to a very nice standard of heat. We also have solar and battery and this is key to running costs. For the winter the system was about 1/2 the cost of the gas from the year before and we only ran the gas for an hr each day when we have the heat pump on all the time. The COP was around 3 in the winter and now we are in early summer the cop is just under 5. Now it’s summer the house cost me nothing. The solar and exports mean my electricity, car charging, hot water and heating (no need for that much in May time) is costing me literally nothing. My bill for this month will be negative £50 approx. I.e. I am in credit from my exports. I even charged the car today and added 60 miles range from the sun while still charging the battery and heating the hot water. Sorry but this is is much more about the whole package of sustainable tech but we decide that missing out on a couple of nice family holidays was worth the benefit of having a heating system that would last us for years. I would say to anyone thinking of getting a heat pump. Just start by having a look at your insulation, call a few installers and pick one you like. Get a heat loss calculation done and if you can afford it get a few larger radiators as this will make your cop or efficiency much better. The battery really helps to keep costs down as heap pumps can use a lot of energy during the day which is more expensive. Also get a time of use tariff as this helps keep the bills down. I love my system as will I think a lot of other people and over the coming 10-20 years the prices will drop and the old gas boiler will be consigned to the history books where it belongs.
I live in Norway and installed a heat pump 3 years ago. We get winters down to -25C and summers up to +35C and the heat pump keeps us comfortable and saves us money on electricity bills.
There are too many cowboy tradesmen in the UK who bodge installations and they are rarely held accountable. Tradesmen are more tightly regulated in Sweden so there are less cowboy tradesmen to bodge the jobs. People lose confidence in ASHPs because of all the cowboys bodging the installs.
You can do a terrible job installing one and still get £7500 from the government, so why bother doing a good job? MCS have put us in a total mess, avoid anyone accredited by them - total cowboys.
As long as you avoid the MCS cowboys you should be ok.
Look for someone who is in the HeatGeek list of trained installers and you should not go wrong.
Tradespeople. It's 2024.
@@mev202Hahaha yea. But if you’ve ever work on a building site you will know it’s tradesman. Heat Geek is really exceptional on installation. Couldn’t recommend them more.
Your explanation of what a buffer tank is doesn't make any sense. Buffer tanks should only be installed if they are needed. They are not required. Heat pumps are most efficient when they're running continuously and not turning on and off. The buffer is there to help the heat pump stay running, not to allow the radiators to stay warm whilst the heat pump is off. A buffer tank also creates a small thermal store to aid the defrost cycle of the heat pump.
What triggered me the most was to separation buffer that they showed in one of the setups because it wastes a lot of energy and I hate this energy wasting tech which is only to make it easier for installers, but is completely useless If you have a Well desigend system
The BUFFER TANK mention also annoyed me. If you really want to learn about heat pumps properly go watch a few Heaf Geek videos. Buffer tanks are generally used to fix a poorly designed system.
Aren't heat pumps inverter driven so the turning on and off issue doesn't apply. I'm in Australia and about to get a dual heat pump system (central hot water) installed for 12 flats. They are Japanese Panasonic C02 with a COP up to 6.0
@@ForTheBirbs They are, but they can only modulate so low. It also depends on flow rates and other variables that should be taken into consideration during system design.
Seems that the buffer tank is a mandatory part of the Aira installation 🤔
Thanks for the brilliant presentation from imagen and the expert panel. Talked to the manufacturers and installers. Was sceptical but now making the move to install one
Please do an episode on how to convert an 1850’s+ era flat built of stone with lath and plaster walls.
The guy from Aira is a great ambassador for this tech. I very much enjoyed this interview.
I like the way he ducked the impact on UK power grid question.
in the middle of the heat pump process with AIRA. Got to say they are highly professional. They've taken care of everything. It sounds like the UK bureaucracy is slowing them down though. AIRA are dealing with planning permission, the EPC.
The electricity price won't come down until it stops being based on the price of gas, this ruins the wholesale savings make by renewables on the grid.
Did you actually watch the video?
OVO are doing a HP tariff of 15p/kWh 24/7.
Octopus also have some cheap smart tariffs, the renewables are making themselves felt.
The problem is that renewables have and always will have an intermittency problem. You cannot store the energy to cover it especially as the energy requirement ramps up. Then when you accept that the next issue is the ability to ramp up generation and pretty much the only thing that can do that well is gas fired power stations and the less you use then the more they will charge when you do need them. The grid is a fine balancing act and not just a ring main that you can plug a few windmills in to.
You are right that we should get away from the gas price but if we hit it too hard you are going to end up with punitive costs when you do need to fire them up again.
@@davideyres955coal fuelled power stations had hundreds of tonnes of coal STOCKPILED.
Gas fuelled power stations have big storage TANKS on the network.
Solar and wind turbines need the EQUIVALENT - battery energy storage. It's not rocket science.
This should be mandated as part of granting planning permission. Madness not to.
Why should the renewable providers be paid less than the gas generators would seem a perverse system.
Our heat pump replaced our old Oil Boiler, stieght swap, no rad mods, or pipes other than those need to connect to the system. We use a battery bank to run it, or our cr on the driveway depending on outside tempure. It makes for a much cheaper to run system and more importantly it keeps us warm. We live in mid Wales 3 bed detached home.
That was very useful. I was able to compile a list of a dozen questions from the points raised in that video, that I need to ask when I'm ready to make the jump for myself. I'll be improving my insulation first.
Insulation isn't necessary, but will help reduce the operating cost of any system. More insulation could reduce heat loss such that your radiators and heat pump don't need to be so large.
"As we see more and more renewables enter on to the grid, if you get a heatpump today, the benefits that you are going to get from it are only set to increase"
Absolutely right - money well invested!
No. Because solar doesn't work at night and wind is also unreliable. So if you are happy to have no heating in November when it's dark and foggy it's brilliant.
@@rob19632just as well there are smart tariffs and or batteries that would through the night. I never pay more than 7.5p per kWh
@@rob19632by then we'll have battery energy storage solutions all over the place.
Everything Electric have debunked this BS many times.
@@rob19632 But in general terms the price of electricity will steadily drop over time, regardless of dark and foggy winters.
It *IS* likely to go up in price in the short to medium term (10 yrs?) as new infrastructure is added but will drop after that
@@rob19632
There again we do have the building of the battery farms, charged by renewable, to maintain power as required.
In theory, rpt theory we could build battery farms in any old place, old underground wartime facilities, warehouses on brownfield sites, barges on the Thames (other rivers are available), old docklands, middle of nowhere, wherever, then cobble them into local grids.
What does muck up the above seems to be political will, or lack of, at a local level.
Another excellent episode. The guy from Aira really knew what he was talking about, and their ASHPs seem like quality. I have a Daikin, and it's fine, but I wish I'd known about Aira.
Had mine for four years. Absolutely no problems. Absolutely keeps the house warm even on the coldest nights.
I'm baffled at the negativity I hear from my neighbours. My bills are lower than theirs, my house is warmer.
After government grants the installation cost £2,300. What's not to like?
Your house is warmer than a gas boiler? I need a citation on that, every heat pump I've seen can barely heat water to 40 degrees celsius. A conventional combi boiler will easily do double that. It might be cheaper to run, but lets not spread lies about the performance.
@@KieranDevvs its warmer because for the same money, its on all day, not just a couple of hours in the evening. and the water in my water tank right now is 65C thanks to solar top up, but in winter the pump easily gets it to 50c. what are you on about?
@@wbjxfkwsklejfde34d Firstly, that's not how "warmer" works. You don't get to say because its more efficient, that means its warmer. Its not. Ok bud but a combi boiler will do 85 degrees easily. How is 50C or 65C greater than 85C? its not is it... You wouldn't claim a Toyota Yaris is faster than a Porche 911 because it does better MPG. Your argument literally equates to "The Yaris is faster because it does more miles per gallon of fuel so over the long run it wins".
You're trying to be sneaky by putting personal finances in to the mix. Because their neighbour cant afford to run their boiler all night, you're claiming the heat pump wins. Well lets use me as the comparison. I can afford to run my boiler all year around all night long. Who wins in warmth now?
Also, to reach 65C you need a £10k+ solar installation, that wont work on a cloudy day or in winter? Ok, so we then have to rely on the national grid power to top our water up. Electric heating for water is the most inefficient way to do so. So this installation cost has just doubled and we're still not at the output of a combi boiler and we have to rely on mains electric half of the year (at least in the UK). Not to mention we have to maintain these systems. A new battery bank every 5-10 years, new solar panels every 8-12 years. For every home in the UK? A boiler will last 5-10 years on average and costs a fraction of the price.
If you took that £10k solar installation cost, and spread it over 10 years, you could double your gas heating bill. The economics just don't make sense unless the government subsidise it, to which we're all still paying for it, the cost is just hidden in our taxes.
I'm not even against the idea. Just don't lie about the numbers. If you're trying to convince people of the idea, be honest about the real world performance and what we get as drawbacks and benefits.
@@KieranDevvs why be abusive? the water is warm enough. there isnt a benefit to it being warmer than 50. The house is warm because the way heat pumps work, they heat all the time. not just an hour each morning and evening. "for the same money" - i think thats relevent, because if it cost way more then it would be warmer for more. its warmer for less. solar makes it even better, and pays itself off in time.
@@KieranDevvs The house can feel warmer because the heat pump helps to avoid cold spots. Yes the heat pump sends out a lower temperature, but it is on longer.
It is more efficient to run a heat pump overnight (paradoxically, this uses less energy than turning it off) so you end up with a generally warmer feeling. This experience is common amongst heat pump users, you just need to experience this.
Also please note it is gas and oil that is heavily subsidised. Every year we pay the foreign gas giants billions for "exploration" which is many many times the cost of the BUS scheme. Meanwhile the renewable producers pay a windfall tax because their low cost means high profits under the artificially high electricity prices while the gas giants pay a far lower rate of tax. Moving the subsidy from gas to electricity/renewables would make heat pumps the obviously cheaper solution.
My house doesn't have gas, 2 bed semi, have fitted 2 mini split units (air con)
Heats great in winter and cools in summer...heat pump tech...very cheap to run... both running in winter about 18p an hour combined....summer cooling 10p an hour combined..
Only one bill, one lot of standing charges 😊
That sounds good - do you mind telling me the make?
How do you get hot water?
@robertp.wainman4094 Yes, I have 2 Fujitsu units, 9k btu upstairs and a 12k btu down, really pleased with the running cost.
@@grahamharrison1323 Many thanks!
@@Zebsy I'm still using the old immersion heater, not ideal but only costing me about 50p a day
You are right Imogen. These look way better than the other external heat pump units. We have had heat pumps for a number of years but always had pretty ugly units. Tell them to export to New Zealand please!
6:18 so the Aira R290 heat pump is low temperature but the Octopus Cosy 6 R290 heat pump from a few weeks ago is a high temperature?
The Cosy 6 isn’t likely to be available until late October 2024.
@@PinkDuckUKso now?
@@alanhat5252 Cosy 6 had its first customer install 9th Sept. First employee Cosy 10 install announced by Greg at Energy Tech Summit 2024. So can switch existing order or order now and ask for it, if a suitable semi-detach or modern well-insulated detached home. Subject to assessment.
The pay monthly approach is very smart. If you are saving £60 a month and you pay £60 a month for the system it won’t cost you more out of pocket. The planning situation in the U.K. is ridiculous, so outdated
Great to see heat pumps delivering through a wide temperature though I'd love to see a graph of COP across sthat range. Seems like they could do with thermal storage assistance.
Great episode with Aira & Imogen - tracking the development of heat pumps
I replaced my H&C system with a Lennox high efficiency gas furnace & heat pump 2 years ago and have seen my my gas & electric bill cut by over 40%
I agree about the 'spark gap' - at the moment, the price differential between gas and electricity means that switching to a heat pump may save energy, but doesn't reduce your energy bill. The current crop of heat pumps are also rather large and cumbersome for retro fitting - even in my modern detached house......
Excellent! More companies with good solutions and designs… 👍👍👍
Good question on grid impact. Pointing out the greater efficiency of heat pumps is a dodgy answer because in winter gas heating can consume 90% of a house's kWh. That makes "can the grid cope with an order of magnitude increase in the domestic load in winter?" a fair question.
BTW I'm not knocking heat pumps. I have one, and it's great.
I have air to air heat pumps in my house (x3), I personally think they are way superior to air to water. Cheaper, quieter more efficient and no need for radiators or a water tank. Granted they dont heat my water, I still use a gas boiler for that (at the moment)but I use less than half a cubic meter of gas a day. What my air to air does do is reduce the humidity, filter the air and cool in the summer.
The running costs are easily covered by my pv system so I have zero costs for my electric.
On rainy days (so at the moment thats most days) my washing can be quickly dried indoors with no condensation or cost. Total cost for my 3 bed house for the system £6k (excl the solar). My neighbours say they cant tell if my system is running either on heat or cool. Helps enormously with my wifes hay-fever.
How do you know you're getting more efficiency out of it though? Air 2 Water has kit that consumers can use to accurately measure efficiency. As far as I'm aware you can only at best estimate efficiency or rely on technical specs.
@BenIsInSweden Hi, the company that installed the system also installs the air to water heat pumps, and they commented. I can monitor my electricity usage in real time also. Both systems work on the exact same principle, but air to air doesn't have to work as hard as air to water. Think electric kettle or hair dryer, which on gets up to temperature quickest?
@@Beorn. Electricity consumption is only one part of it. Heating up quicker doesn't mean less energy used either. R290 is able to capture more heat than R32, but R290 isn't possible in all but tiny split systems. There are also other factors like A2W having a much larger surface area for dissipating the heat, so can do so at a lower temperature.
I have an A2A system with also a multisplit that can do my DHW as well. But whilst it's an efficient system, I wouldn't say an Air 2 Water system at my house would be less efficient.
I would happily switch over to an ASHP, but even though I live in a 2 bed semi, there is no where in my house to install the tank and nowhere to install the outdoor unit either. Rather annoying given I have pv and will be getting a battery installed in the next 6 weeks.
Small cylinders (see Heat Geek Mini) are becoming available if you have less internal space. Outdoor space could still be challenging.
Great news that Aira will be at FC Harrogate - I'll be having a chat with their team!
I was given the same selling arguments twenty years ago when I installed my pv solar panels - cheaper costs, payback in ten years, etc. Well, I have yet to recoup the installation costs after twenty years, and I am now experiencing system failures on a regular basis. The next failure will be the last straw and I'll shut down the system, it's just not worth the hassle.
It’s the size of the units that surprises me, they look huge. Having seen this one I can say I’ve nowhere to put one, unless I can place it 4-5 metres above my driveway on the wall … I’ve nowhere else to put it. Plus I’ve no space for the water heater and buffer tank in the house. Unless it goes in the loft (don’t have a garage)
Water cylinders can be small-see the Heat Geek Mini or placed in the loft, and you may not need a buffer cylinder. External unit may be more difficult though
I've got a heat pump installed in my property, it came with it when it was built. I'm still not sure if it actually does anything? We're a 3 bed semi, only 2 of us yet our consumption is around 450kWh a month on average? Not much different at all compared to the last house where we had a standard combi boiler.
Place some 44 gallon drums around your heat pump and paint them black. Fill them with water. Any sunshine that falls on them during the day will be emit some stored heat during the night. Make a reflective panel to shade it in summer to keep the unit cool.
160 liter drums around your heat pump? Have you had a drink? Do you mean 44 liters.
Why is the "labour cost" -ie the cost excluding main materials ASHP and cylinder so high? The cost of an ASHP and cyliinder from plubers merchants seems about £5000. The labour cost seems to be £7500. for reference both Aira, Octypus are charging £12500? I'd like to install ASHP in home and office. Welcome others knowledge.
It still boggles me that heat pumps seem to be so controversial in the UK. Here in the US, even as atavistic as we tend to be, something like 20 million households now use heat pumps.
A lot of its because the providers/installers are still fitting heat pumps that are undersized for the home.
So about 18% - how many of those are air to water heat pumps?
@@Rick-vm8bl I would say they are more often oversized, so more expensive to run.
why do we not use the "einstein" no-moving-parts heat pump in the UK?
It is very popular overseas.
It would be great to see everything electric report on heat pumps suitable for apartments / flats!
I would love a heat pump but I don't see anything suitable at this time for a first or higher floor apartments.
I guess this water based system is needed to replace the radiator based heating in the UK. Here in Norway most heat pumps have been air to air types.
My parents got an exhaust air heat pump system where the hot water tank and the floor heating is all connected. They barely use any energy for hot water and heating in an 80m2 apartment.
Hmm... I do feel the representative from Aira rather dodged the question from Imogen:
"can the grid cope with all this electricity that heat pumps will use?"
"heat pumps use less energy overall than boilers do"
That's not the same as "yes, the grid has plenty of capacity" or "heat pumps use less electricity than gas boilers do".
I have just looked up the power requirements of a Grundfos circulating pump. It peaks at 60w. The boiler as a whole will not take much more than that. I believe that most heat pumps, if they are set up well, will use about 400w constant.
I think that is likely fine, the grid can cope with everyone running their kettles in the advert breaks, so we can certainly cope with 400w. But he did not answer the question.
From Wikipedia: The UK grid "Maximum demand was in 2005/6 at 63 GW (approx.) (81.39% of capacity)". Demand rarely goes above 40GW these days even in the worst days of winter. There is plenty of network capacity, and more is being added and can continue to be added if demand increases. National Grid have made it clear they can cope.
😂 my sons gaming PC takes 350W , TV with sound system another 300… are ppl really that blunt?
@@AdamCiernicki I didn't know every person in the middle of winter runs their PCs, TVs and sound systems continuously .. Day and night (the latter of which, and I hope you're aware of this, facilitates a sum total amount of solar power of exactly 0W). Thanks for enlightening me.
Luckily a lot of adopters are also getting solar and battery storage, so not all the demand will fall to the grid. Equally those changing from storage or other electric heating will reduce their electricity demand. Interesting times. I hope to change to a heat pump solution in the next few years.
How will this combine with increasing numbers of people charging electric vehicles?
I'm in Sweden. Heatpumps DO work. Some in the comments say they don't...
Our 2012 built 180 m2 house uses 6000 to 8000 kWh electricity per YEAR to keep warm, AND 25% of that is for hot tap water!
Our 1959 house with district heating used 20-23 000 kWh and it was smaller.
Every house in this area uses heat pumps, some combine it with geothermal.
We had -36.6°C (officially at the airport and --38C here) this winter, so... Yes! Heatpumps work - just look at your refrigerator and freezer - SAME TECHNOLOGY
At -36C for sure have a back up like an electric element to compensate. No heatpump works efficient below 20C. The Mitsubishi heatpump for cold climate is probably the onlyone to push for -25C with 80% efficiency.
@@dragandrag24 yes, if the heat pump is exposed to that temp on the cold side.
Our heatpump draws energy from the ventilated air, which is 20-22C, and ejects it much colder to the outside. -10 or colder when working hard.
The lost heat in extreme cold is added by the electric heater in the system, but of course a separate air to air heatpump can provide even cheaper heat for the temps above -20C or so, as can a wood burning stove.
The proof of the efficiency is indeed the yearly consumption which is amazingly low, as I posted.
Well insulated house, triple glacing and internal blinds that can cover the windows and add an extra insulation at night and extreme cold.
50-60 cm rockwool in the ceiling, 37 cm in the angles roof, some 25-30 cm in the walls. Airproof layer inside the insulation.
Is a heat pump effective in a poor insulated house?? Thank you
Insulation will reduce the running cost of a heating system, and may reduce the changes you need to make, but heat pumps most likely can be installed without insulation changes.
Buffer tanks is needed. Why? On winter time in freezing condition when heat pump switch to defrost mode you still can have hot water and warm house.
That can be achieved using a 'volumizer' tank plumbed into return feed to HP (one inlet, one outlet used), my 27 litre volumizer tank on my smaller system is there for just that purpose, to provide a body of water for a defrost cycle when needed.
A 'buffer' is plumbed as a hydronic balancing unit which allows the HP to circulate water at a flow rate it is happy with, and the heating system can recirculate water at a rate it is happy with (two inlets and two outlets used).
Here in New Zealand around 50% of homes now have a heat pump. At the same time, around 80% of our grid is powered by renewables. Although unlike Europe, most of our heat pumps are air based heat pumps rather than heating radiators.
I feel like New Zealand is left out in Fully Charged/Everything Electric discussions! 😢
Scandinavia is mostly air-to-air as well, I think. In Norway we didn't bother with gas once we found out those waterfalls we have everywhere are very useful (just like NZ) so homes don't have radiators or gas pipes, but rather went from firewood to electric heating to heat pumps.
New Zealand is a two day flight from the UK .A few Europeans on a Island far away are you surprised? Are the majority of your properties wood build and no radiators like in the UK?
@@foppo101 you don’t need to fly here to know what’s going on lol. Although Robert is just across the ditch during summer 😉
Our new builds are mostly wooden framed with some having metal frames. And no, as I mentioned, radiator based heating is rare outside of commercial buildings
Interesting, like the idea of paying monthly and no upfront cost. I see from their web site they are favourable to microbore as well which a lot of companies, including Octopus wont install on.
No mention of the APR.
One of the main issues to wider adoption is that installers are charging 6k over and above the grant to install the system on a modern home.
Yup. Bleeding the consumer.
An air to air system is what is used in most of the nordics, costing about 1,5k-2k per heat pump.
We are in a 4 bed detached house and a 9kw system is costing £3780 with Octopus. Very similar to the cost of a new combi boiler.
@@ralpharmsby8040hope you like cold showers 😂
@@ralpharmsby8040 My combi boiler was £1000 Ten year quarantee.So I have £2.780 spare for a few years or more.Iam not going to mess about with a heat pump at 74. Three Bedroom detached house.
The only thing I know about heat pumps is my neighbour across the road has one - installed a couple of years ago. I went out of the house at 5am (I live in a very small village) and it was a 'what the hell is that noise' moment. It was his heat pump running. My oil boiler is whisper quiet, even when firing. Just imagine a whole estate running. Noise abatement anyone? Maybe I'll wait a while.
Buffer tanks are generally not needed according to HeatGeeks, maybe speak to them about what's required with heat pump installations before speaking about them.
That what I understood from watching @HeatGeek also….but there has to be an explanation as to why Aira have it in the heating system ‘package’. Is it to standardise, making their offering applicable to a wider range of homes? I’m curious.
Buffer tanks do not reduce efficiency, don't take everything heatgeek says as gospel. Think of a buffer like a battery, it stops short cycling of the heat pump in lower demand periods and can be used to great affect with time of use tariffs by over heating the buffer when energy is cheap and then using that heat later when it's needed and the energy is more expensive. They are also used on a low volume or fully zoned system to help with defrost cycles.
@@markbarrett2321 HeatGeeks suggest its not necessary in most situations so to install it regardless is just bumping up the price, they generally have the data to back up their claims.
@@bpgfox Bump up the price?
@rtfazeberdee3519 and a battery doesn't help the house with efficiency, but paired with other things like time of use tariffs will aid in lowering bills. The other thing you fail to realise is to get any grants in the UK you must comply with MCS and to comply with MCS you must abide by manufacturers instructions, which if they say you have to have a buffer tank then you have to have one or don't get any grants. So companies are just doing things by the book.
Why are hot water pipes still being made out of copper? Not only is it expensive and rusts quickly to green copper oxide but it is a fantastic heat conductor. If you want to transfer heat in the form of hot water from A to B in a pipe you wouldn't make it out of a really good heat conductor you would make it out of a really bad heat conductor and even think about adding additional thermal insulation around it.
its the noise I dont like, our neighbour has two of them stacked one above the other on the outside of their new extention right next to our patio on the other side of our fence and the racket of the fans is unbelieveable the noise pollution is unecessary in a nice quiet rural area, imagine one in every garden in the UK the little rural towns will be actively buzzing with noise pollution every single day and night. we have had a quote done for a heat pump and we are told is just wont work for us because there isnt enough ground source heat stored in the ground for winter use so we might as well just have electric powered heating and we are not going back to storage heaters again.
It was almost believable until I got to
"and we are told is just wont work for us because there isnt enough ground source heat stored in the ground for winter use so we might as well just have electric powered heating and we are not going back to storage heaters again."
Then I just realised you had been completely misinformed, there is more than enough heat in ground and air (much cheaper)
Yes the noise is my biggest concern. Our neighbours are close. Our houses are small . If one of them has a heat pump running it will be noticeable but if many of them do it will be intrusive and unavoidable. I’m dreading it.
My heat pump has been botched an I paid £18k for the privilege, the total cost was £23k - the £5k grant. I really need someone that know what they are doing to assess the installation.
Marc makes a crucial point at the end, which in summary is that living costs are lower for wealthy people than for the least well off. It starts with being a Tenant, which means a lack of control over energy decisions (waste reduction or production) as well as higher monthly costs and a reduced ability to save for investment.
You are incorrect.
The muliplier for Electricity was 2.5 - 5 times the cost of gas pre 2019.
Since the adittionak taxes and charges have been added the cost is now over 4 times the gas cost and up to 5 times at the current Octopus tracker rate.
I am a fan of heat pumps, however the planning system is there to protect neighbours interests and privacy. Heat pumps generate a lot of noise, which is a consistent low frequency hum, this gets much worse as they get older and can have a serious impact on neighbours lives. Yes the planning system needs to be improved, but great care needs to be considered in locating the unit when in close proximity to your neighbours…. We do need to make this transition, but I would only ask for great care in choosing the location of the unit….
2:41 - using “over 400% efficient … from an energy perspective” just sounds like marketing drivel.
Better to phrase it as “it pulls 3x the amount of energy from the environment as you put in in electricity, giving you 4x the heat as you would from that amount of electricity in a traditional electric system.” (could be extended by “it does this by exploiting the difference in heat between its cooled fluid & the ambient temperature, so it works down to sub zero temperatures, like a Swedish winter”)
Of course a gas boiler is
Hi Everything Electric. Can you encourage suppliers, including Aira, to be more transparent about pricing. GCH systems will have radiators designed to run at 65 degrees so heat pump will need more or larger emitters.
Looking to switch my mothers home to a heat pump and get rid of the NG furnace. Has anyone had good experiences with brands available in Ontario, Canada?
The boiler hasn't broken yet, thats the only thing holding me back!
I imagine if you have solar and battery storage a heat pump would make sense, priced way out of my pensions scope though !
What options are there for houses with no room for a tank and that currently have a combi boiler?
Do you have a loft or a garage? They can be installed there.
@@egocd no garage. Loft is really small and I'm not sure if could take the weight.
@@ThaedDavidWorth checking with an installer. Our hot water tank is much smaller in volume than the cold water tank that used to be in the loft.
I’ve had one in a 1960s house for over 10 years now. Retro fit onto existing rads. Works just fine, because it was designed correctly. The real problem in the uk is poorly educated heating engineers. I had 9 companies quote, 7 said that heat pumps don’t work and that I should just upgrade my
Oil boiler. They were WRONG.
Have we still got engineers left in the UK? Technical school education is poor.
Theyre gonn have to get the price of leccy down in the uk for this to ever be a feasible option!
more renewables then, but my heat pump is still cheaper than same size house with gas.
I’m not sure heat pumps are so great , how reliable are they ? , how much are they ? , do they work well ? .
How much does typical system cost for a 3bed house
What do you think about air to air so that one gets summer cooling as well
I'd love to have a heat pump but all my research points towards the installer being the make or break. With the government grants in place there's a rush to get ASHP installed as fast as possible. My concern is what happens when the grants end and the companies springing up have all gone. Will we see a PPI claim storm? And what about the end users stuck with a system poorly installed and poorly set up. Again my research shows that the customer has to have a fair amount of knowledge and input to get the best out of the system. I'm not convinced our housing stock or end users are anywhere near ready for ASHP. I hope I'm wrong but I think the next few years will be very interesting.
Definitely need a competent installer. People need to do some due diligence. I’d start at looking at Heatgeeks. They guarantee scops and if they go bust another heatgeek trained company will sort it out.
You could always buy from a bigger company that will be around to guarantee the warranty period.
I went with British Gas, free survey (in my case detailed survey giving heat loss, radiator sizes etc, this might be a two stage procedure now), price match guarantee, guaranteed to heat home as detailed in survey, or money back, and they take on manufacturers five year warranty 🙂
As it turned out they appear to have designed and delivered a good working system that I am pleased with.
@@_Dougaldog - I agree thats the sensible route to ASHP. After having several quotes for ASHP, only the BG surveyor was honest enough to tell me my property wasn't suitable for a heat pump without a lot of remedial work. All the others were just out to flog me a system and pickup the grant. I asked the BG surveyor his opinion on the properties he regularly surveyed and he was quite candid in his reply. He spent as much time revisiting BG installs trying to fault find as he did looking at new installs. The primary problem being older properties with poor insulation and a heat pump that could never reach a comfortable level of heating due to heat loss. So I'll have a condensing boiler fitted before this winter.
@@PaulRansonArt
My problem if any was (HP is in 'soft off' mode now, i.e heating off but still heats HW each day) too much heat in March as temperatures outside fluctuated quite a bit.
No problems with heating even when below zero outside, my house is modestly insulated, returning a COP of 4.24 since installation in February.
Running at a steadty400W when 7C or even cooler outside, no cycling at all, living room 21-23C, bathroom 22-24C, others 18-20C.
No. Our mid-terrace Victorian house would need a complete redesign to accommodate the pump (planning restriction where you can place it) the new hw tank as it has to be a certain distance from the pump. The new radiators required due to the system pressure. So I’ve now done all I can. Solar, battery, insulation & replaced windows.
A house 5 doors away on the other side of the road has a heat pump , we now have to keep our bedroom windows closed in the night because the noise from the heat pump keeps us awake
Will be unbearable if everyone has one
Just had a Daikin ASHP fitted by Octopus…cost to me after grant was £390. Yes £390.
Not an R290 one capable of 70°C mind.
I had one installed this February because I was fed up of corrupt leaders and countries dictating what I pay. Luckily I could afford on top solar and therefore moved to octopus Agile and wow. It is just the cost saving is whilst not massive it is worth it but it just works and when weather now, warming the water is so cheap and easy now, I reckon 35p a day and no standing Charge.
The big problem with back-fitting heat pumps to older properties is the need to swap out radiators, cylinders and so on to cope with the much lower flow temperature. Worst case is that microbore pipework would have to swapped out as well if the flow rate is unable to make those bigger radiators deliver their full output.
As an example, my 1990's build house needs a flow temperature of 65 C on the coldest days of winter. A heat pump could supply that but would be woefully inefficient at that temperature, so to bring it down to 45 C my rads. would need to be much larger.
Which you'd also need to do to get any of the condensing gas or oil boilers to actually condense or run anywhere close to the advertised efficiency.
We had the microbore piping ripped out and replaced, installed new radiators and installed a heat pump, removed the boiler and oil tank. Installers were really disappointed because they didn't quite finish in five days. They had one extra morning to finish up the full commissioning of the system.
Edit: In my 1860s house with 1980s central heating
@@johnmckay1423 My radiators micro bore piping is 42 years old.Radiators same age.I replaced one radiator in the dining room a tall one with good heat output.Combi boiler new £1000.Radiators are 70c in winter.I probably this year will replace the two radiators in the living room but both are still working fine.I used to drain the system once a year and added protection in the system.Getting to old now at 74 to mess about to much.My brother in the Netherlands has a heat pump underground pipes.It is a brand new house.A small engine room in the dining room where the storage cupboards are.Can't say Iam that impressed.
Octopus have told me today, 8 months after I paid my deposit, that my home can’t have a heat pump because it has both underfloor heating and radiators. Their solution was to install a radiator in lieu of connecting the underfloor to the system, which I politely declined. If this scenario can’t be managed what chance do we have?
Oh well, after eking out my remaining oil over the winter I suppose I’d better order some more, and get the old boiler serviced 😢
That's Octopus for you, they get so cheap because they are not flexible. Other suppliers will fit a heat pump and your underfloor heating will be a big benefit.
Octopus do tend to do the work to a standard template. Others should be able to help
We have microbore underfloor pipes so we need "hot" water to go through them. It would be very expensive to change all the pipes (ugly!) & radiators to accommodate a lower temperature system.
I have microbore pipe so have been looking to see if I could have a heat pump or not. Reassuringly there are a few people on YT who have heat pumps with microbore that are getting 400%+ COP. One is "James Rattray" in a 1930's house getting 400% COP and there "Upsidedownfork" who's in an early 2000's house. Both guys have done some very detailed breakdowns of what was involved. So it is possible, just depends on the design from what I can gather and it wouldn't put me off changing to a heat pump when the time is right.
Not necessarily. Heatpumps can work with 10mm microbore. If it's 8mm it can be a bit more tricky.
Currently on 440% with our 10mm microbore, but only recently installed and not working at max efficiency yet (it’s only doing hot water right now). In winter, when heating comes on, this will increase. So microbore on its own is not necessarily an issue to high efficiency, just needs good design
Yes most of Sweden have heat pumps BUT no one explains that unlike the UK Europe actually has well build insulation homes for centuries unlike in the UK, most home are build before the 1950s where most homes are solid wall.
The tired old insulation argument.
My insulation in my 1920s home maybe better than the UK's temperatures, but in -18C my heat loss is double that of the average UK home, and mine work just fine.
I have a heatpump and I’m delighted with it. However the question put in this clip was, will the grid cope? The answer given about heatpump efficiency versus a gas boiler didn’t answer the question it answered a different question to do with energy used to heat a house. The other point which I as a heating engineer agree with is yes a heatpump can heat any house but and it’s a big but some older properties will require a complete reinstall of the heating system or the use of a less efficient high temperature heatpump. Older properties will also need a huge upgrade to the insulation and that could well be cost prohibitive. It should be remembered that Scandinavian countries because the are so cold, have far better insulated houses.
I am willing to bet that insulation is not cost prohibitive when compared to just continuing to heat with whatever system is currently used.
Cost is still the biggest issue. Average install cost for heat pump in UK is 14K so even with BUS grant the cost is 6.5K.This is almost three times the average cost of a replacement boiler. I think the cost of switching to a heat pump has to be similar to replacing a new boiler in order to take off in UK. Until then uptake is going to be very slow in the UK.
The lions share of that is switching to low temperature heating, which would reduce gas usage as well. Difference being is it is what heat pumps excel at.
Heat pumps already can work with high temperatures as well, just the current energy prices in the UK make it far less attractive, as the heat pump efficiency will be lower.
Unfortunately in UK the cost benefit can’t really be used due to the way Gas is subsidised and electricity isn’t. Also as the guy said the planning permission restrictions need to updated and the ECP’s are also not fit for purpose. I will get a heat pump but now is not the right time in the UK.
2 important differences between Scandinavia and UK...
Firstly, over 60% of their installations are A2A, which is actively discouraged by our government,
and secondly, the air is much drier so defrost cycles are less problematic.
There is some truth to this, but the differences in humidity are not enormous. They can still work perfectly fine.
I still get the UK sweet spot of about 3C and 95% humidity, over here and they work fine.
A2A over here is mostly due to in the 70s Central (oil) wet systems being ripped out for electric radiators, because of the oil crisis, and electricity being cheap. So A2A is a much more attractive prospect over A2W. A2W is still very much recommended, but for my home, it would come to the tune of over £30K for a retrofit.
The government don't 'actively' discourage A2A installation, in fact they reduced the VAT on them to zero, but that's the only perk.
Politicians in general have often assumed they are air conditioning systems that only cool, that includes green politicians like Caroline Lucas.
Also the MCS certification system that oversees design and installation doesn't recognise A2A which is another reason why they don't get subsidies.
Totally agree it needs an overhaul though.
Countries with an extensive gas grid, such as the UK, the Netherlands and Germany, have historically been slower to adopt heat pumps. Scandinavian countries with very limited gas grids, such as Sweden, Norway and Finland, have among the highest rates of heat pump penetration
How do they cope in coastal areas where there are regular strong winds and salty atmosphere? I get severe corrosion on the metal component of modern upvc window systems after 3-4 years so would not expect them to last long.
Wow 0 upfront cost is a great idea. Makes installing a heat pump a viable option for so many people
Almost seems obvious. Scottish government for 0% finance loans for eco tech - possibly more useful than a grant.
My house cannot have a heat pump because there is no space in the airing cupboard to store hot water and no space outside to place heat pump on the wall. You needvto create a heatpump combi boiler or create a new gas boiler with over 100% efficient and a chamber for organic matter to absorb the CO2.
The water cylinder can be smaller in the form of a Heat Geek Mini. You may still have problems placing the pump outside though. Tech should improve for that though.
My heating and hot water is electric. I don't have a gas supply. Can I still get the grants for a new heat pump and heating system?
Yes, though your installation will cost substantially more as you won’t have any existing pipework.
@@egocd Consider air-to-air systems. Most retrofitted Scandinavian systems are for obvious cost reasons.
I'm in Canada and we have no issues with heat pumps
Perhaps you don't have quite so many politicos sticking their noses into things they don't understand?
If so then lucky old you!
not sure UK electricity bills will come down any time soon given the payback needed for the new nuclear power stations.
lol
That was such a crap answer to the grid capacity. Just ignoring additional electrical us which will need more infrastructure to meet the need of that additional load.
Plus you don’t need a buffer tank it reduces the efficiency of the SCOP.
Heat Geek has done a video on this.
@mrfr87 Seeing Heat Geek mentioned, I thought I'd go and see what sort of money we're talking about. I have an oil combi boiler. Electricity, no gas.
Estimated Savings CURRENT PROPOSED
Performance info 80% Act 88% 350% Guaranteed Minimum
Energy unit rate info 6p oil 24p electric (its actually 28p round here)
Annual running costs £780 £720
Annual CO2 at point of use
info 2,390 kg 0 kg
Savings £60 per year an annualised estimate, based on your system's performance after the upgrade
And this after a bill of £12,819 for the install. After grants etc £5,319 to be paid by me. I could buy a lot of oil for that and even have a new boiler installed.
Economics of a mad house. Think I'll wait for electricity prices to fall.
Good luck with COP when using the buffer tank.
They forgot to mention that @ 70°c your efficiency has gone out of the window & you will only get this temperature from a r290 unit that is only available currently as a monoblock system in the uk.
The way to get the "efficiency" from a air to water is to flow a lot of water @ a low temperature like 35°c so basically you require underfloor heating, large radiators with larger bore pipes making retrofit on a house with 15mm/microbore pipes a real headache.
Interviewing a salesman was not the best way to get a honest opinion on this technology
Its not about the temperature in the UK its about the planning laws it can't be within 1 metre of the boundary it needs to pass the MCS 020 sounds rules which are very difficult to pass and every installer needs a 100amp supply to the home. But try to get an air conditioner installed (an air source heat pump!) and almost none of these rules apply,
Something not quite right there, MCS 020 sound limits are not difficult to achieve, my house has a 60 Amp main fuse, at very worst my HP pulls 2.8kW for a very short period when heating HWC, other than that it can tick away quite happily at 400W 24/7.
Not true re 100 amp. You only need 80 amp and some are OK at 60 apparently.
@@_Dougaldog we have had 5 installers (3 heat geeks) around to quote for a ASHP everyone has required us to get an upgrade to our 60amp fuse to at least 80amps preferably 100amps. Our DNO has a dedicated contact specifically for these upgrades. As for the mcs020 we had one heat pump (7kw Valiant) pass all others failed at 4m from our neighbours house (the new Bosch will likely pass to now but it wasn't available when we tried).
We live in a regular semi detached home if we struggle to get permitted development for an installation and needed to fork out for planning permission on top of the huge price to install even after a grant I understand exactly why Britain can't install enough heat pumps
Thank you for an interesting episode.
0:00 that overview of a suburban area... imagine all the areas like that in Britain having most houses have solar panels, batteries, and heat pumps. The transformation of the whole energy system of the country would be immense. And that's with today's tech. Seriously, we could be so very much further along if today's tech was actively implemented. i.e. continuous state subsidies for installing all these things (oh, and to insulate people homes too, obviously).
The elephant in the room with heat pumps is that you can't just replace a combi boiler without also solving hot water - which means installing a massive tank. Finding space for that inside the home is non-trivial.
Sunamp have a heat battery. The only problem is that it needs high flow temps. So you need a High Temp heat pump and with high flow temps you get lower efficiency.
You could place it in the loft, and smaller water cylinders are available-see the Heat Geek Mini
Mine is coming on Monday. Can’t wait
Was this with Aira? How did the install go?
Sorry there is still a lot of jargon going on in this video.
All people need to know is if it is the same or better than a boiler and if it will work in low temperatures.
Yeah no worries.
There is no point in changing your heating from gas, if the electricity is produced from gas.
We also need to know the COP at -25C with 35C flow, its not going to be 4.7. Or at what outside temperature that cop is achievable.
In NE Scotland National Grid ESO App' tells me electricity is 73% wind, 25% Hydro, and 2% gas.
More often than not, it is zero gas usage.
In fact if you check that App', you'll see that gas is often well down the list and not top as many assume.
Depending on electricity region.
On the coast here, average January temperature was 2.8C, unless you live in Ballater or Braemar I doubt you'll ever see -25C.
The electricity grid will change over time. Also, why do you need to worry about -25c? It never gets that cold here.
@@egocd Because that's what they advertise as the spec. while also advertising a COP of 4.7. The cop varies according to the difference between the hot and cold side. If its not at -25 then what is it at? W_B data sheet shows typical a COP of 3 at +7C/35C flow temp, which means you are looking at below 2 around 0C and worse for humid conditions, and of course your output is terrible meaning the HP needs to be on 24/7. You are lucky to get 4kW from a 7kW system. Thermal storage with cheap dynamic tarif would be far cheaper.
Where on earth has an average temperature of -25C
I think you could apply your closing statement to any renewable form of heating Imogen, to be fair.
While I accept that heat pumps are a marvelous use of electricity when designed and fitted well, I'm still ,frankly, traumatised by the horror stories of bad installations though. If AIRA take all that away and deal with everything from start to finish and keep up a relationship with you after installation making payment easier I find that encouraging.
Now the only problem which remains and I don't know how to fix is where the heck does all that kit go in my 1950's semi? I need to get the loft boarded I guess but I really didn't want heavy water storage tanks up there again.
Actually that's not the only problem. The one that's insurmountable is that I could not cope with the disruption involved in getting it all done. So much pipework, radiators finding somewhere to put it all, I've only got a combi at the moment.
Then the biggy: clearing out the junk that's accumulated in my house for twenty years since I've been ill! Plus as far as I can gather to make any of this viable it seems I need to get solar panels too, more expense. Except I'll get less from them in the winter when the heat pump is most needed so I guess I'll need a battery too....where does that go?
There are places outside in the jungle (!), I even have a linked out building jam packed full of junk I no longer have the strength to deal with. However all the wall space is in full sun and gets absolutely blasted with heat in the summer months, can a battery cope with that? Can a heat pump?
We really want to make the transition to renewables, we got a used EV even though we can't charge at home because eventually the council will put in AC chargers near us.... when they get DNO approval. The rest of it is so hard, I am looking into infrared but I've seen horror stories about running costs which I'm reserving judgement on. I believe you need to get the right regulators and they work a bit more efficiently. Will no maintenance costs and easy installation alleviate the higher usage costs?
As the summer comes I will start approaching companies and talk to them direct. Have them come and wade through the chaos of my life and see who I believe can help me the most with the least disruption and the easiest way to pay. AIRA is now on the list if they're up and running here now?
I've the same problem here, the house is stuffed. Also, I need desperately to improve the insulation before a heat pump can be considered, but I can't find a single builder with a good reputation willing to come and do that, they're all WAY too busy. Only dodgy cowboys left who are looking for work.
@@ianstewart7605 I've decided I'm going to get the loft boarded and shelved with extra insulation underneath. There's a local company I've communicated with today that has very good reviews and does free no obligation, no hassle surveys to quote. I'll get a new hatch and steps up there too, I'll have to employ somebody to help me clear up and get stuff packed away up there. Then I'll get AIRA round to have a look at my situation and see what it involves and how much to get solar and their heat pump. If that all seems too much for me to cope with I'll get Jigsaw and a couple of other infrared companies round to give a quote.
Oh and my house is metal framed so I won't be putting insulation in the cavity wall. I have a feeling that may stop me getting the govt grant in which case it will be infrared and solar./battery storage anyway.
I checked out Aira's website and they seem to be up and running in this country, I like the sound of their guarantee and aftercare.
Then of course there's the windows need replacing or maybe renovating, I wonder if that's cheaper...all this and no money to speak of but it's fun planning! 😅
I am very concerned about the noise pollution from heat pumps. A house near me has one at the front of the house and I can hear it from the end of the driveway. I would hate to live next door. If the noise was going to be coming from every house in the street it would be very intrusive and unavoidable.
I have 3 on my house, 2 below my bedroom window and Iam very sensitive to noise when sleeping - my cats can wake me up just by walking into my room. No issues for me at all.
Modern, properly installed ones aren't noisy.
They are 40 to 60 decibels apparently- the same as my dishwasher, or someone speaking. I really don’t think they will be suitable for terraced and semi detached houses, or even detached ones that are close together (many modern ones in the U.K. are less than a metre apart).
@@juliebrooke6099 your dishwasher is inside your house. The heat pump is on the outside facing away from the house.
@@BenIsInSweden ,yes so the neighbours can hear it. Exactly my point.
@@juliebrooke6099 can they though? they're further away, typically behind a wall. One of my friends lives on a caravan park in the Uk with a heatpump/ac attached to her caravan (so not insulated like a house). Had the AC going multiple times last week when visiting, and wasn't disturbing at all whilst watching TV, and it was just on the otherside of the wall.
Yes, you are fine. Signed: the entirety of the United States Midwest, which is both hotter and colder than the UK. :)
Country what most people would have you believe most terrace houses need a high energy system as of solid wall & too expensive to insulate also these homes just have nowhere to store a water tank so unless I heat pump is just the size of a boiler and that's it most terrace homes cannot have a heat pump currently.
At the moment no. The prices are coming down and with the BUS grant its tempting but its still really expensive. My last quote for a Vaillant HP with british gas was £13,500 before grant which makes no sense whatsoever. I can buy the Vailant HP and cylinder for £5500 and then replace a few rads myself.....where the hell is the rest of my money going.
I had a whole gas combi central heating system installed with radiators for £3500.....granted that was a while ago.
It's great to hope for it
I had a survey done by Octopus with a view to getting a heat pump. My house is a standard 3 bed semi, built around 1916, but is well insulated, has an A energy rating, and was deemed a suitable candidate. They reported that the radiators would need to be upgraded (which was expected and fine), but there wasn’t enough clearance for the heat pump at the side of the house (1.6m vs the required 1.8m) and the airing cupboard was too small to receive a suitable water tank.
Given those facts, Octopus declined to proceed. My point being that if my, well appointed and insulated house of reasonably generous proportions is deemed not suitable, then until there are more pumps and water tanks compatible with existing housing stock, the rollout isn’t going to get very far.
Smaller water cylinders are available, perhaps with another installer-see the Heat Geek Mini. Hopefully clearances will change over time, and do vary by pump.
I have a friend with one. He hates it and constantly complains about the electric eating heating. I would need to spend thousands upgrading my house to make one worthwhile. That being said. For newer homes that are well insulated they seem to be worth it.
It’s a bit of myth that houses need to be new. I’ve got a 50’s terrace and it works great. It’s cut my bills in half, especially when coupled with solar.
He didn’t answer the question about the grid being able to cope. He talked about energy not electricity. Don’t do that to us fully charged. You are better than th at!
A typical politicians answer. Give the answer that makes themselves shine. Not the one asked. It’s so disingenuous of these single company vids from FC. Sad!
Yes. Very dodgey. Your typical viewer is very well educated. You can't pull those kind of tricks and get away with it
They glaze over it because it's a non-issue. Trying to move electricity from one place to another is not a new technology and we are constantly increasing grid capacity already through regular maintenance and infrastructure projects. Also there's time, "a heat pump in every home" won't be a reality overnight.
He did say: ‘One of the benefits of a heat pump is that it pulls less electricity overall’…than a gas boiler.
About 3 mins. I may have misunderstood this.
@@ObiePaddlesI think you are right. This isn’t true however is it… and to be clear I am pro heat pump. I just like accurate videos!
Come and promote this in South Africa please. People here only use heat pumps for air conditioning and large swimming pools.