Edit: Upon becoming halfway decent with spy, and reading the wave of comments, I now realize the razorback sucks ass. Just due to the nature of sniper he’s either overpowered or completely useless. A good sniper in a good place is bad news for the enemy team. Razorback makes it worse because spy’s like the only counter. But you can’t nerf his ability to kill from long range because he’s a damn sniper and that’s his gimmick, it would be like taking engineer’s PDAs. So sadly he’s just like that by nature and I don’t think much can be done about it for the foreseeable future
Honnestly I feel like the vacc is the most hated weapon. That's why I have a 5 euros vacc with killstreak and strange called "Satan funny zoom gun" And I get death treat litteraly multiple time a day lmao
Yeah no the scorch shit is still the most annoying crutch of a weapon. But this is coming from someone who thinks that the diamond back is fine, just annoying to play against. And his bit on the frontier justice is just appalling.
@@smokeyredmeadow it is not just annoying, remember usually when a spy backstabs, he got everyone's attention and in most cases he dies, but with diamondback spy mains with ambassador aim, can just delete anyone in one shot and get away like nothing happened and then repeat.
@@ryanhill6684 Only doing mini crits would be pretty bad. Stock deals 60 damage at max ramp-up, whereas the Diamondback at max damage would only deal 69 damage with mini crits.
No one is complaining about the dragons fury. No one is complaining about the scottish resistance. Or the direct hit or the widowmaker or the Reserve shooter. Those are all Good, high skill ceiling weapons that don't get any hate. The only thing that seems to get hate is hitscan instakills across the map.
Why do people hate sniper bots? Because they will kill you any time they see you. Why do people loathe playing against good snipers? Because they will kill you any time they see you. There is no practical difference between a cheater and a godly sniper on the receiving end, unless you want to argue that bots would be fine if they ignored invisible spies and only turned around occasionally rather than all the time.
When someone consistently lands Double Donk, the victims are going to be more impressed than pissed because they know how difficult it is to land even one. A Direct Hit Soldier airshotting me while I was hitting the skybox with the sticky jumper isn't gonna makes me mad.
@@othila9902 even this is too good for it. the issue with the diamondback is thesame theold amby had. with all the positioning tools Spy has, if you are in a situation where you'd have ot use your revolver you likely got found out and arerunning for your life as you are in 8/9 cases outgunned OR you managed otget yourpick and should be looking ot escape, not pick a fight. with the amby you had tostill get yourself in a good position to take advantage of its perk(whihc was the ability ot 2 shot light classes, your main targets that you cant use the knife on). A sideffect of this was that a skilled enough player could turn it into an improvised sniper rifle and even this use was more balanced due ot the fact the amby has a firerate penalty caused by its headshot cooldown. now with the diamondback the issue is now that the spy that should be trying ot make a clean exit is now equiped ot get 102 damage hits for just doing their job without the hindrance of having to aim for heads nor having an internal cooldown on the aibltiy to fire said shots. you now went from being outgunned by 8/9 classes to being able to 2 shot 8/9 classes at no extra effort to yourself. now instead of spy having an umber of positining tools, he has a VERY STRONG Dm toolset in his watches and knives that the Diamondback rounds out. spy shouldnt have the ability ot win 3v1's+ for just doing what they were meant ot do. the worse part: its impossible ot balance the diamondback without adressing the amby.
I said it in another comment but the FJ also doesn't change engineer's fighting range much with crits due to bullet spread, but since the diamondback is single shot it benefits far more from crits that are arguably easier to get, even.
Yes but your sentry has to be destroyed or you have to destroy your sentry to get the crits which is usually very counter-productive since you probably make your sentries lvl 3 before the enemy really gets to it.
when I was new to tf2 and played spy, I always picked the diamondback over the amby because even back then I thought it was just the amby but no need to aim, once I got better at the game I switch to the amby and enjoyed that a lot more as I felt I being rewarded more for improving, while I only really play tf2 to play medic or MvM nowadays, like I said in my tweet, the fact the amby got nerfed for people aiming too good with it and the diamondback didn't still confuses me to this day, I guess Valve overlook it since like this video said, no one really talked or used it before the amby nerf.
Yeah, it's really questionable how valve saw the amby being a mini sniper rifle due to having had the same lack of fall off warranted a hard nerf like it got, but the diamondback which did the SAME THING BUT EASIER was untouched. At the very least it should have the same fall off. Its counterintuitive to the whole focus of spy as a class too - why backstab your important pick when you can just ensure a crit shot of 100+ damage on them at a safe range? It's the exact same as a sniper rifle in that usage, still.
the main problem I have with the diamondback is the fact the weapon doesn't sacrifice anything substantial meanwhile the frontier justice cuts your clip in half which is brutal and it forces you to aim carefully (you also need to lose your sentry i guess). cutting the diamondback's clip size down by half as well would be a welcome nerf or revert the amby to its former glory.
@@nsdapcommunism2780 15% is nothing on a spy revolver. You only lose anywhere from 3 to 9 damage on any non crit shot. Even worse, than damage reduction doesn't even play into any significant damage threshold.
It's worth mentioning that you're using the FJ crits on engineer, who is just as (or slightly less) squishy than the spy, but without any of the same benefits. An Engineer can't just cloak away or feign, he can't disguise himself and get into your backline and work his way up (I don't really count ninjaneering but that depends on who you ask), and he can't equip a weapon that gives him broken amounts of health for getting a kill. Engineer has to put himself in more risk, with a smaller clip, deal with random bullet spread, and if he's not running the Gunslinger he most likely has no sentry. Engineer himself has enough setbacks built in to himself that the gun doesn't need many debuffs and stays balanced. Engineer gets caught out without crits, he's dead, he runs out of crits or has to reload his 3 shot FJ, he's dead unless he has the Eureka Effect and you don't get him in time. Spy can have the Kunai and just farm health, which in turn means he can farm crits easier, and if he's put in a bad position he can feign death (while not as good as it used to be, the dead ringer is still very much good in pubs, though not quite broken). Spy has unlocks that make his life easier and has negligible enough downsides to the point they don't matter, I mean how often of a difference does the Kunai health debuff really matter. The Diamondback follows this pretty closely, he does 15% less damage which is incredibly negligible, and ideally the spy will have crits so that downside is even less relevant, hell without them The Diamondback is still a good finishing tool. The Diamondback should have a firing speed penalty like that of The Enforcer in my opinion. If he wiffs that gives his opponent more time to react, if he hits he's still vulnerable for just enough time to have an impact. It'd be an actual tradeoff for the weapon, and not just a pointless stat debuff that technically makes it worse. The Diamondback could also implement crit falloff like The Ambassador, and I say that for the same reasons FishStickOnAStick brought up in his "In Defense of The Ambassador." However crit falloff in general does need to be more consistent. The firing speed nerf does make it more like The Ambassador, but I can't think of many impactful debuffs to apply that wouldn't require a complete rework of the weapon (which in my opinion they should just do).
The whole skill ceiling thing brings up an interesting argument on its own. People cry nerf when other players reach it, but I think this in itself is a symptom of a much bigger problem. Matchmaking fucking SUCKS. Nobody likes to be stomped, whether it be due to actually overpowered items and mechanics, or because they got matched against a player they really have no business playing against. It's one thing to get matched against someone slightly better than you. You can make the argument that you can learn from fighting better players. But at a certain point the skill disparity is so large that it's not even a fight anymore. It's just playground bullying and not fun. If matchmaking actually functioned like...a matchmaking system and put players of similar skill levels together, this wouldn't be as prevalent of an issue.
true, but i still think there should be some lil mixing of skill levels, cause if not, we will have another halo infinit problem where scince everyone is just as good as you ALL THE TIME the game becomes just too stressing, having to constant fight for you survival without relaxing easy kills or unfare fight you know you gonna loose anyway, conclusion: isnt variaty still super important ?
same here, like how tf can a "new guy" (i hav abt 100 ish hours on the actual game, most of my other hours are idle/trading and stuff like dat) can be queued with fuckin ~sad mofo here~ with a 200k strange kill covered sniper rifle, and be called "matchmaking". i hate casual.
True, but the alternative is what we have now where the average player is frustrated by the people far above them in skill. Why do you think so many people are so vocal about their hatred for Sniper? I'm gonna drop a truth bomb on ya: The fact of the matter is that the majority of players just aren't that good at the game, myself included. Most people play the game casually, maybe investing only a couple hours at the end of a workday at most or even just a few hours a week to casually unwind. They're not gonna even come CLOSE to being able to fight someone who has devoted thousands of hours into mastering a single class or the game in general. "Casual" Mode is a very deceptive name. You would think this is where you go to play the game casually, and to a degree it is. But it's hard to have casual fun when you're consistently stomped by the really good players who are also here to play the game casually. It's like if a professional MMA fighter had a "casual" bar fight with some random joe. Maybe it's casual for the professional athlete, not gonna be a very casual experience for the guy fighting for his fucking life. The Scout is not gonna have a very fun time in a "casual" fistfight with Saxton Hale. Extreme example, but it gets the point across. A lot of casual matches end up turning into sweaty tryhard fests as the less-skilled players are kinda forced to try hard if they even want to play on this server if there's a skilled person on the other team who can kill people with a literal flick of the wrist while not even trying that hard. And then the skilled player gets demonized for just playing the game, maybe he gets kicked, and nobody is having fun. The only real solution is to put like-minded players together so that more people are actually able to play the video game. Because as it currently stands, the more casual playerbase hates the skilled minority with a burning passion for essentially ruining the game for them, and we can't dispute that subjective experience. But the skilled players have every right to play too and it's not fair for them to be demonized. So the only real solution is to separate the playerbase, at least to a degree. I agree that some mixing is still good for the overall health of the game, but maybe the guy with 5000+ hours on Sniper alone shouldn't be matched up against players that only have a few hundred hours in the game. I feel like there should be some sort of system in place that at least protects the more casual players with only a few hundred hours from being matched against masters of the game. ....Or Valve could just fucking fix the official Competitive mode so the skilled players actually have a viable alternative to flock to. That'd be great. Maybe make that steaming pile of hot garbage actually function and make it worth playing. I'm not a competitive player by any means, but I feel like this very simple thing would fix a lot of problems in Casual matchmaking. Just throw the Competitive players a bone.
The Diamondback has this very interesting skill ceiling to me. When you think of something like the Scorch Shot or the Short Circuit or whatever, you can picture any skill level using it to an effective degree as it’s easy to pick up and just piss everyone off. With the Diamondback however, it’s a bit different in my opinion. A new player using the Diamondback will get little to no use out of it since they’re new and don’t understand how Spy fully works yet. An average player might get some pretty good use out of the Diamondback but might have issues with aim and precision or will get unlucky and swarmed. A master player (aka one that has like 5k hours or more) can fully abuse this mechanic to its fullest and make the server a living hell. This is just my take on the weapon tho, but I do feel it’s definitely a very aggravating weapon to fight against especially when the Spy you’re fighting against is really good
to be completely honest, any skilled god-tier player will dominate any server no matter what you would force 'em to use stock, diamondback, amby? who cares when the guy can get either to work perfectly same way with classes, a god-tier soldier is as annoying to deal with as a scout
The Diamondback is a performance multiplier for spy, if you're doing good as spy, it will help you do even better, but if you're not doing good then is a straight downgrade
Randomly found your channel, saw the anime pfp and expected a stuffy mic spy main with mediocre vids. Was actually blown away by the production quality and had a few good laughs as well, subbed!
@@kubaGR8 there absolutely is people don't seem to realise that if they're trying not to get killed by a godly sniper, a cheater would have killed them approximately 7 seconds ago, along with the rest of the team.
@@ME0WMERE A typical aimbot cannot shoot through walls, and neither can a good sniper. A typical aimbot will spin 180 and blast you in the head if blatant, which a pro will not do, but an aimbot can be configured to not do that. There's many, many more ways people can tweak their cheats to make them less blatant. They should still be banned on principle of course, but the thing is: past a certain point, a cheater and a pro player have the same effect on the game. I don't care if the sniper is really good or smartly using some cheat software while staying down low, both are miserable to play with. Case in point: CS:GO's overwatch system. People are viewing another person's PoV and still can't agree if hacks or not a good chunk of the time.
i completely agree - i think the problem lies within the ambassador nerf more than the diamondback itself - unnerf the ambassador and poof, less frequent unskilled plays.
Well yes, hiding spy's most busted weapon under a bunch of bad frag movies might reduce complaints but won't fix the actual stomper annihilating servers with it. Real bad take here.
A thing with Frontier Justice is that, while you yourself (usually) dont have to do anything with crits it gets, your team does. If sentry gets destroyed while having ZERO kills or assists, it gives no crits. In 98% cases, sentry spot is obvious and dying to it is easy to avoid. This still could be unfair to you personally, but still much less than crits that are completely random or (in case of Diamondback) easy to gain since spy's sneakiness means its very easy for him to find "something" to backstab or sap.
Peoples are used to TF2 being chaotic and casual, but actually when there is skilled player in enemy team, it's very hard to even run, not just get backstab.
@@UberSpah a skilled player is sure dangerous and their presence is imposing, but they're still just one player. They can't be everywhere. With spy excelling at striking where he's not expected, he can often strike where that one skilled player is not present. You need 3-4 or more skilled players in your team to cover majority of the map more or less reliably. That being said, spies in general are not hard to stop by actually coordinated team. At best they manage to get those crits on rare occasion some gibus engie strays away, or they get away with a trickstab and somehow don't get killed in two seconds.
The one thing that I always question is why the Diamondback doesn’t have a slower firing speed. The Ambassador and Diamondback have the same downsides (No random crits and -15% damage penalty), but the Ambassador has a 20% slower firing speed and Diamondback doesn’t.
The spy's revolver already shoots faster than most people can aim and track with, that won't really do anything. It didn't do anything to make the Enforcer any less hated back in the heyday of Dr. Enforcicle.
Okay, Imma say this - The no damage fall off is broken, since you can two shot light classes just like you could before Jungle Inferno with the Ambassador, but comparing the Spy to the Sniper might be a bit of a stretch in my opinion. A lot of times you can't quite pick your targets like the Sniper without almost zero consequences - Lemme explain: Sniper often times has a clear view of the frontlines, so he can pick off whoever he pleases that's in his sightlines, but often times Spy can't quite do that. Spy has to ballet through the enemy team, look convincing in his disguise and not bump anyone, he can't always pick as carefreely as Sniper can. Spy has to take whatever he can, and that's what the Diamondback is for - To get out of sticky situations where you would have usually been dead based on (some) degree of skill (I say 'some' because I mean, it doesn't quite take a lot of skill to just keep bullying some F2P Engineer who just figured out that he can actually build stuff). But regardless of that, I still agree that the no damage fall-off and building sapping make for too high of a reward setting, but if only those two were nerfed, I think all the complaints would be gone, since y'know, backstabbing / trickstabbing people takes a lot of effort to pull off a lot of times.
@@vyor8837 You kind of skipped over the part where I mentioned not bumping into anyone, which is REALLY damn hard when there's a teamfight, even more so if there's a paranoid pyro
Issue with Diamondback is that you just play normal spy but now your gun is stronger than basically every other weapon at midrange. Emphasis on mid-range. Engie also doesn't always have the ability to approach people, so he'll only be killing people who overstep against him for the most part. Spy however, can be wherever he wants for the most part, which is the flaw with the Diamondback. It gives spies a way to beatdown people after a backstab even if he is caught out. One of my gripes with the Diamondback is that I'll be paying attention as Medic, see a spy, chase after him/run away but before I can get to him/escape, he'll stab my teammate and instantly kill me. I didn't make a misplay, if the spy had any other revolver, I'd have been up 50 uber and a kill count/gone but I didn't know the spy actually can deal 2/3rds of my HP instantly. Amby is in a great spot in my opinion. It still is a big boon to Spy's damage while still allowing people to run away or fight him. Since the spy needs to be insanely precise/wait a second between shots for perfect accuracy to get multiple crits. And the falloff means people who are retreating can actually get away. Amby is perfect for killing snipers, finishing off injured players and dealing chip to strong units. It doesn't make the Spy a powerhouse or give him control over the battle, but it gives him a tool to threaten opponents and make them choose if they want to pick the fight. Diamondback is good for killing heavies before they can ever rev up or gunning down literally anyone as the sneaky class regardless of if you catch them off guard. Also, I was the Diamondback's biggest hater pre-Amby nerf. Always thought the weapon took the stock revolver and made it objectively better without making you actually play differently. Every scout primary and secondary makes you play the game and take engagements differently, every spy cloak and knife makes you play differently, yet the Diamondback changes nothing and rewards you for doing what you'd be doing with any other gun.
the amby isnt really a bad weapon, but "great spot" is a bit of a stretch considering landing a headshot past mid range does the same dmg as a letranger bodyshot
@@AbcDefg-tq3ju that's not true? Headshots only stop criting after 1200 hammer units, which is the length of the 2fort bridge. That... isn't mid range. Even rockets only do like 50 damage at that range.
i still havent switched to the diamondback because I like randomly getting a headshot against the cocky ubersaw medic that expects to get a random crit on me
Hey, great video. It's nice to see you still improving your motion graphics and overall storytelling. I agree that the Diamondback was dragged into the spotlight as a consequence of Jungle Inferno, (RIP Amby, Gone but not Forgotten) but I dont think that discussion around it would fade away with an Ambassador rework. You're assuming that TF2 players lack object permanence, which while true for the half that are underage or subscribed to Zesty Jesus, the rest of the playerbase would see an unchanged Diamondback as an upgrade and keep using it. The Ambassador was only arguably overpowered in the hands of players who invested the most time into it. Conversely, the Diamondback's strength comes from raw stats. You only need to stab the gibus engineer and hit a bodyshot to leverage its upside, which for almost everyone is much more feasible than hutting semi-consistent headshots. In a world where the Ambassador is reverted, I think the much more likely scenario is that Diamondback abusers would try the "broken enough to justify a nerf" Amby, realize it's hard, and go back to their preferred revolver after a week or two. Unfortunately, the cat's out of the bag. If the game ever receives more changes, hopefully Valve decides to stuff it back in and drown it.
Honestly speaking for myself / the spy mains i have talked to a lot of them would rather switch to the amby. I didnt mean for it to sound like they would just “forget” (although the zesty jesus fan jab is p funny lmao), but rather that spy players would prefer to use the old ambassador rather than the diamondback. (Cant speak for the ones i talked to, but anecdotally i would like to because of the potential damage the amby gives) This is also coming from someone who hated the Diamondback wayyy before the amby nerf. Im sure people will still hate it, i just think the mass army of people who dislike it now would go away as quickly as they came
@@zenithzv removing dislikes and complaints is not fucking balance when some guy can still pick up the Diamondback and be busted with it. Hiding the problem under amby frag movies won't change the Diamondback when it truly gets around to killing you.
The reason why the Frontier Justice is balanced vs the Diamondback, is in the core design of the gun as a whole: one encourages playing passively, and only go aggressive if you know you can; while the other just makes you stronger for playing the same way you always do. The Engineer is not a strong class without his buildings. He is basically a slower, weaker Scout. The Frontier Justice has half the clip, meaning you only get 3 shots, so without crits, it's a less effective Shotgun. In addition, Shotguns shoot pellets, which means they deal damage that scales with distance. In order to get the 180, you need to be in someone's face, otherwise a long range Frontier Justice shot is likely to do a whole 16 damage. This in addition to the fact that it only works if your Sentry has gotten some work, and then goes down; is what gives this weapon a fair design. As it has downsides that keep it balanced and rewarding. The Frontier Justice does require a shift in mindset, because you have to analyze the situation, to determine if you should save the gun, let it go down, or destroy it yourself; while also trusting in your own aim, and situational awareness during play; remember, you're still just an Engineer. Meanwhile: The Diamondback has the same stats as the Stock revolver, minus the -15% damage penalty. Knocking your Revolver's base damage shot of 40, down to a whole... 34; OMG how game changing... but; in addition, Spy as a class is built with more methods to keep yourself out of danger. You can go invisible, disguises or Dead Ringer to easily get out. All you need is one backstab or building sapped, and your gun's pitiful damage goes up to a static 102 damage... from any range. Oh, and Revolvers are always 100% accurate on the first shot, so provided you don't spam it, you basically have a mini sniper rifle that doesn't require you to hit a headshot or change your playstyle... AT ALL. And all you have to do is play your class like normal, and you get free crits. Engineer only gets hit Crits if he's put in a situation that leaves him vulnerable, and he can only capitalize on those crits if he has the skill, and knowledge to use them. Spy just gets 3x the damage on his gun for playing the class the same way as always. Where's the downside? Where's the drawback? In addition, Engineer can't disguise himself, and then smack someone for 102 from his disguise; because that's a fair mechanic.
I think that the problem is more so with spy itself, for me almost everytime I get killed by spy Its irritating because it feels like I couldn't do anything about it. The Diamondback certainly doesn't help in that regard but the weapon definitely not overpowed
5:50 ah I see so people want to nerf spy because.... he's weak? Wtf is everyone talking about!? No, spy should atleast be as good as sniper cuz they're both usually single target elimination and for support one for the front line and the other for the back line but one is broken and the other has been nerfed to the ground
The way I see it, people want to nerf Spy because they're fine with being outplayed by any other class except for Spy. It seems to have become inherent that dying to a Spy caught in his act sticks with people far more than them dying to any other class in the game. They don't like Spy surviving after being caught.
@@breadbug6101 why do they stick with this mindset though? Why do they want spies to be dead when they're caught, and not given a fair chance to escape? Is this why they hated the DR?
@@ivantan2841 I’d assume this is why everyone hates the dead ringer; that plus the fact that the old dead ringer made Spy incredibly hard to kill. As for why people stick with that mindset, I’ve no idea why. It’s as if everyone wants spy to rely on stealth and crappy melee hitreg, and have no other playstyle options like the other 8 classes have
i think unnerfing the amby would be pretty bad because it kinda removes the risk of spy, with spy's tools you can get past the frontline and get behind, if you get good enough at aiming you can just chill behind the enemy and pester them with constant 102s, you dont even have to bother going to the enemy and risk your life for a backstab, and if someone tries to chase you, you can just kill them or hide with your cloak
Honestly people seriously need to just argue about reverting the Ambassador more than anything. Especially since they're more mad about dying to the weapon than actually using it. From my experience its a dumb weapon for sure, but I'd rather use the other options because I perform better with them. Spy is also the weakest class in the game so I mean it isn't a weapon that's honestly deserving of a nerf. And nerf airblast, cause it's really bullshit.
How would you nerf airblast? It is bullshit but it’s the only thing stopping W M1 from being the only way to play Pyro, aside from flare spam. Only thing I can think of is increase ammo cost but that would either invalidate the back burner or make it a direct upgrade
@@WarioTimeWarioTimeWarioTime smaller hitboxes, slower firing speed ig... Keeping the 'overpowered' ability of airblast as itself but upping the skill floor required to pull off a good airblast. A fair trade of reward for skill. But that'll never be the case. Everyone complains about sniper's high skill ceiling, yet laugh when they held down m1 moved their mouse left and right and demolished an entire team just with a pocket medic...
airblast is a versatile and skill based tool that only really soldier mains whine about lol, i much prefer seeing pyros combo and airblast to them just wm1 maxing or scorch spamming but that is the most viable playstyle now sadly. idk why anyone would hate on airblasting when the class has much worse issues
Thank you for watching, appreciate ya! note* Jungle Inferno came out in 2017 not 2018. Time flies lmao ALSO i say at one point that “tf2 is a series of 1v1s” and i was thinking about how you’re meant to prioritize one target at a time. So i just used the wrong words. Willing to take the L on that one :) Likes / Dislikes as of 4/29/22: Likes - 542 Dislikes - 51
Reverting a different weapon's nerf to make people stop using an overpowered item is not the take I expected to hear from this video. Just undoing it wouldn't make people forget how strong the Diamondback is, and it'd still be too powerful.
What? Reverting the change cuts the amount of critz you have in half, and forces you to go after engineers for the reward, not just play normally, it was perfectly fine before the buff because of that
@@dbelow_1556 I'm referring to the suggestion in the video to revert the Ambassador's nerf to make it relatively stronger so people just wouldn't use the Diamondback.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh sorry, I read it wrong, still, I think reverting the changes for both is a good idea. The amby got kicked into the dirt for nothing
I personally think that the diamondback should instead get crits when a sapper is operating on a building, so that it could work almost as a way so that spies could make it more difficult for a engi or py-bro to take out, allowing it overall better for situations where you need to take out a decently sized engi nest. Perhaps any downsides made could reflect this use, perhaps a normal damage decrease and decreased health on user (similar to the big earner or kunai) so that it is primary specialized for just that use, rather than it just being op in all situations.
Love this gun i dont even use it but i find it super funny watching a spy pull it out and miss 4 shots but still getting you with the 5th due to storing so many crits
You can say a similar thing about other "____ on kill/hit" items as well... Many just ruin matchups because you have an ally that gets killed by them This becomes really apparent with some things... Diamondback, Zatoichi, Eyelander, Ubersaw, Bazaar Bargain, etc... The issue with the DB at least is that the downside is so negligible that it doesn't matter....
You know, the fact that the Ambi was also able to do the exact same shit as the Diamondback if you could hit headshots is not an argument against the Jungle Inferno nerf.
Sniper's balance is odd since nowadays the tf2 Bot invasion makes sniper op (they dont have to learn to aim, they auto lock on you, they always Headshot, and you need at least a Vaccinator Med to get past while as a Fist of Steel Heavy) and the Frontier Justice rewards good placement and helps the engineer with the Battle Engi playstyle, but the Diamondback needs the same nerf as the Ambassador (BUT NOT 1200 HAMMER UNITS DEAR GOD WHY IS IT THAT SHORT!)
i was thinking that reducing snipers base rifle damage by 20% would be a good nerf... quick scopes reduce light classes to 5 hp and fully charged headshots deal 360, matching crockets and allowing overhealed heavies to survive. balanced around the other classes.
You’ve brought it up in a decent amount of video now so im curious if you would be willing to make a video elaborating on your thoughts about airblast? Stuff like what you dont like about it and what you would change about it would be interesting to hear.
i think the diamondback should revert back to mini crits but the damage penalty be -25% and have mini crit be the explosive shots it has in it's original game, the explosion should be like the scorch shot without the after burn
it should have either an extra damage penalty or minicrits. Not both. -25% damage + minicrits is just the original damage again. And explosive shots have absolutely _no_ business with spy. Doesn't fit the class in the slightest.
I'd rather die from a guaranteed crit over getting random critted or shooting random crit, fuck random crits 7:50 The ambassador was the same damn way before it got nerfed, only difference was it was by headshot only. Still doesn't make it fair to be headshotted across the map and then see in the killcam it was a spy and NOT a sniper like you would expect. Obviously the Diamondback should be nerfed, but do NOT bring back the amby
What I'd like for Spy is a gun that stuns engi buildings on hit as well as blocking new overheal from being added to a target, both 2s long. Just make it have 2 shots, 500% reload time but reloads when put away.
Honestly with all the times nerfed two weapons because they were "Linked" like the Natascha and Brass Beast, the ambassador and Diamond back are the only two that should have been nerfed together but they weren't.
The risk and reward of the diamondback plays in the spy himself spy is already risk and reward so all the diamondback is doing is adding on to his playstyle
The unfun vs. overpowered debate is something that i have mentioned a lot in tetris, basically there are setups in tetris that can kill players and feel extremely repetitive and boring, but are completely counterable but, as you said, i would rather go through a lobotomy over playing sdpc every round. But bad players still cry overpowered despite putting no effort to counter the tens of hours the sdpc user has spent learning their strat.
@@Lethal_Spoon if it isn't an option then it's a sign of bad map design, just like most CTF maps are poorly designed when it comes to engineer stacking.... or how most maps can't really deal with engie stacking tbh.
Bad take, just because the Ambassador's corpse is stopping the Diamondback from destroying servers to this very day does not mean that it's busted stats go away when you buff the Ambassador. It's wishful thinking. I WANT more people to use the Diamondback instead so that people actually fucking notice that this weapon is banned from multiple comp formats for a reason and is hilariously busted. Did you know you can store Diamondback crits without even equipping the weapon, then redeeming all the crits just by swapping weapons at resupply? Because that's a thing.
I think a good concept to make the Diamondback not overpowered is by giving it a meter that charges after 2 kills. After you charge the meter, When you switch the the Diamondback you gain mini crits for 4 seconds but you cannot disguise when the effect is active. What do you think?
@@samdaman2939 A Diamondback minicrit is 46 damage per shot, 3 shots needed to kill a squishy, same as stock, meaning it would be worse than stock 90% of the time and the last 10% would be on the same level as stock Shit design. NEXT!
i bet valve is gonna eventualy say "shut up spy is one of the most hardest classes to master and nerfing his kit to the point where he's useless in every game is stupid so shut up and stop giving spy hate" i feel like spy main haters would probably push valve to nerf the stock loadout, remove his ability to backstab, make him revolver only or just straight up remove him entirely
I struggle to remember there ever being a time there wasn't a singular best in class spy revolver. The cloak gun was always poor combat for utility, but among stock, enforcer, ambassador, and diamondback, the revolvers that are stated for combat, one was always clearly above the others. Today there is very little reason to use the ambassador, stock, or enforcer over the diamondback. Pre-ambassador nerf there was very little reason to use any combat revolver besides ambassador, even if you couldn't consistently aim for heads you are more likely to happen to hit the head than random crit, and the occasions where you can take the time to line up a shot made the lower damage well worth it regardless of skill level. Before that there was pre-nerf enforcer with its increase to damage when lacking a disguise, where all but the most confidant spy players have little reason to use the ambassador when the enforcer two shots anyways. All of spys slots suffer from this, where there is a pretty obvious best in slot weapon, and while the other options are still viable, as long as there is consistently at least one or two bad players on the other team (which is nearly guaranteed on most servers) diamondback+kunai (and usually deadringer) is simply the best. One of the reasons this is so frustrating is that it makes bad teamates not just dead weight, but a liability. One clueless sniper means you consistently have a 200 health spy with at least one guaranteed crit Reverting the Ambassador would be a return to status quo of one best weapon syndrome. What the spy revolvers (besides french name cloak gun, it's doing this right) need is to have more distinct roles. My first idea for Diamondback is to put a time limit on the crits, so in order to use them the spy has to go directly from a stab to shooting, making it potent in chain stab scenarios but reducing the spies ability to one shot in sporadic 1v1's. Other funny ideas: It is frustrating how you have no idea if a spy has crits stored or not when they are disguised. Every other guaranteed crit effect has very obvious effects. So what if the Diamondback did too? What if the crit sheen applied to your disguise, meaning you would need to keep the gun stowed for your disguise to have much value. What if the diamondback crits could not be accessed at the weapons fire rate? Either with a recharge per crit or something more involved like only being able to shoot a critical shot if the clip is full, forcing a reload before you can crit again. A crit into a normal shot still downs light classes so not sure how much effect this has.
I have never agreed with a video more While headsehots from across the map were unfun, they require skill. This video puts my thoughts on spy revolvers on a tee. I still have people complain when I hit a headshot with the Ambo, but I just tell them that, "I can't aim for shit, so if I headshot you, you messed up your mivement." I have never won a conversation with this, but it sure as he'll is correct. The Ambi is not broken, just very good when reaching the for the skill ceiling. As said by one of the other comments, the quote at the end of the video is absolutely correct. Screw people for ruining the 1 skill based primary that spy had, and replacing it with a better, not skill required revolver. Plus, not to be too hopeful, with TF2 getting new updates, we might eventually get weapon balances. Unlikely, but still would be wonderful.
The reason Sniper and old Amby and now Diamondback are hated is because it removes the other player almost entirely from the equation. If a sniper misses, he dies, pretty much regardless of the other player's skill level. If he hits, he wins. That's not fun or even fair to fight. The other player may as well be an NPC.
Well the problem with Soldier is that he has the direct hit and if he hits you you lose instantly regardless of your skill. You're basically an NPC. Well the problem with Medic is that he can turn people invincible and then the other player just loses regardless of their skill. Well the problem with Demoman is that he can one shot 7 of the 9 classes just by right clicking when he's close to them regardless of the other player's skill (stickies, max rampup, deal 182 damage, give or take). The problem with heavy is that he can kill anyone in less than a second if they run into him while revved up, making them effectively an NPC because it doesn't matter how skilled they are...
A simple but significant change to the diamondback would be to not let it crit while disguised and a few milisecond after. Its stupid how you cannot see the crit. Compared to Frontier justice where you can see the engineer holding a boosted shotgun, or he could hide it to give himself and advantage closer.
Spy's most hated weapon allows him to do 100some hitscan damage after you get a backstab or a sapper destruction. While there is a whole class that does 150 damage after you install the game. Interesting...
Spy can: Turn invisible, tank 500 damage hits, heal and become the tankiest class in the game with every backstab, disguise (which hides his crits), and see enemy health Sniper can: Aim good, sometimes (every 20 seconds) throw a jar of pee and then hit someone with a knife for way too much damage because fuck that combo
It'd be interesting if the diamond back received a -20% damage and a stat that makes the critical hits expire after some time and also have the same damage falloff that the ambassador has
@@simplysmiley4670 Maybe reduce the clip size to 3 like the Frontier Justice? That way, you can at least kill a regular Heavy in 1 clip, but you still have to make sure you land all of those critical hits.
![[TF2] Spy's Best Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jvfA553xnck/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Spy's Best Weapon](/img/tr.png)
sniper mains try not to make every discussion of balance about the sniper challenge (impossible)
True
Edit: Upon becoming halfway decent with spy, and reading the wave of comments, I now realize the razorback sucks ass.
Just due to the nature of sniper he’s either overpowered or completely useless. A good sniper in a good place is bad news for the enemy team. Razorback makes it worse because spy’s like the only counter. But you can’t nerf his ability to kill from long range because he’s a damn sniper and that’s his gimmick, it would be like taking engineer’s PDAs. So sadly he’s just like that by nature and I don’t think much can be done about it for the foreseeable future
how to balance sniper: force taunt after every kill
@@_GLXC I thought tf2 players got pissed when you could get stun locked
@@_GLXC Unironically yes, this might actually work
Hated more than the Scorch Shot? That's hard to believe
Honnestly I feel like the vacc is the most hated weapon.
That's why I have a 5 euros vacc with killstreak and strange called "Satan funny zoom gun"
And I get death treat litteraly multiple time a day lmao
Yeah no the scorch shit is still the most annoying crutch of a weapon. But this is coming from someone who thinks that the diamond back is fine, just annoying to play against. And his bit on the frontier justice is just appalling.
@@smokeyredmeadowi play pyro and medic daawwgg i just love to shot scorch shot on spawn or airblast 10 rockets
@@smokeyredmeadow it is not just annoying, remember usually when a spy backstabs, he got everyone's attention and in most cases he dies, but with diamondback spy mains with ambassador aim, can just delete anyone in one shot and get away like nothing happened and then repeat.
Don't forget that the Diamondback used to only get crits from sapped buildings and not on backstabs.
It was pretty bad back then, but also the Enforcer was extremely powerful around that time. I think the weapon just needs more real downsides.
@@Spanishdog17 Bring back the old Amby.
@@highmedic2351 Bring back the old ambassador and make the diamondback do minicrits
@@ryanhill6684 Only doing mini crits would be pretty bad. Stock deals 60 damage at max ramp-up, whereas the Diamondback at max damage would only deal 69 damage with mini crits.
@@highmedic2351 then remove the damage penalty
"Why have a skill ceiling, if people are going to cry 'Nerf' when you reach it"
Put that up on a billboard please.
Such a great quote.
Because you aren't gonna hit a skill ceiling with Sniper. There isn't any. The true skill ceiling is aimbot.
No one is complaining about the dragons fury.
No one is complaining about the scottish resistance.
Or the direct hit or the widowmaker or the Reserve shooter.
Those are all Good, high skill ceiling weapons that don't get any hate. The only thing that seems to get hate is hitscan instakills across the map.
Why do people hate sniper bots? Because they will kill you any time they see you.
Why do people loathe playing against good snipers? Because they will kill you any time they see you.
There is no practical difference between a cheater and a godly sniper on the receiving end, unless you want to argue that bots would be fine if they ignored invisible spies and only turned around occasionally rather than all the time.
When someone consistently lands Double Donk, the victims are going to be more impressed than pissed because they know how difficult it is to land even one. A Direct Hit Soldier airshotting me while I was hitting the skybox with the sticky jumper isn't gonna makes me mad.
Baller ass video my dear Zenith
Its the elmaxo(real)
indeed
The Diamondback went from Underrated to “Overpowered” in like a day a couple years ago or so.
bruh
It was banned from comp formats long before Jungle Inferno
Honestly at least the damn thing takes aim, unlike the scorch shot.
@@Awfulfeature Way too rewarding tho, they should maybe buff the damage by 5% and make it minicrit or have the same dmg fallof that the amby has
@@othila9902 even this is too good for it.
the issue with the diamondback is thesame theold amby had.
with all the positioning tools Spy has, if you are in a situation where you'd have ot use your revolver you likely got found out and arerunning for your life as you are in 8/9 cases outgunned OR you managed otget yourpick and should be looking ot escape, not pick a fight.
with the amby you had tostill get yourself in a good position to take advantage of its perk(whihc was the ability ot 2 shot light classes, your main targets that you cant use the knife on). A sideffect of this was that a skilled enough player could turn it into an improvised sniper rifle and even this use was more balanced due ot the fact the amby has a firerate penalty caused by its headshot cooldown.
now with the diamondback the issue is now that the spy that should be trying ot make a clean exit is now equiped ot get 102 damage hits for just doing their job without the hindrance of having to aim for heads nor having an internal cooldown on the aibltiy to fire said shots. you now went from being outgunned by 8/9 classes to being able to 2 shot 8/9 classes at no extra effort to yourself.
now instead of spy having an umber of positining tools, he has a VERY STRONG Dm toolset in his watches and knives that the Diamondback rounds out.
spy shouldnt have the ability ot win 3v1's+ for just doing what they were meant ot do.
the worse part: its impossible ot balance the diamondback without adressing the amby.
The frontier justice also only gets crits after loosing your best weapon
This is exactly what I was thinking
I said it in another comment but the FJ also doesn't change engineer's fighting range much with crits due to bullet spread, but since the diamondback is single shot it benefits far more from crits that are arguably easier to get, even.
Yes but your sentry has to be destroyed or you have to destroy your sentry to get the crits which is usually very counter-productive since you probably make your sentries lvl 3 before the enemy really gets to it.
Gunslinger engineers.
plus you're fucked if someone catches you alone without cries
when I was new to tf2 and played spy, I always picked the diamondback over the amby because even back then I thought it was just the amby but no need to aim, once I got better at the game I switch to the amby and enjoyed that a lot more as I felt I being rewarded more for improving, while I only really play tf2 to play medic or MvM nowadays, like I said in my tweet, the fact the amby got nerfed for people aiming too good with it and the diamondback didn't still confuses me to this day, I guess Valve overlook it since like this video said, no one really talked or used it before the amby nerf.
I still can't use anything but l'tranger or however you spell it. That increased cloak trumps damage for me
Yeah, it's really questionable how valve saw the amby being a mini sniper rifle due to having had the same lack of fall off warranted a hard nerf like it got, but the diamondback which did the SAME THING BUT EASIER was untouched.
At the very least it should have the same fall off. Its counterintuitive to the whole focus of spy as a class too - why backstab your important pick when you can just ensure a crit shot of 100+ damage on them at a safe range? It's the exact same as a sniper rifle in that usage, still.
@@moronribbons5774 idk about you but when I use the diamond back I usually for get I have crits and die with a few banked
@@liquidsleepgames3661 your problem not weapon problem
The ambassador WAS broken which is why it was nerfed. It was essentially if the spy was given a sniper rifle that was unscoppable.
the main problem I have with the diamondback is the fact the weapon doesn't sacrifice anything substantial meanwhile the frontier justice cuts your clip in half which is brutal and it forces you to aim carefully (you also need to lose your sentry i guess).
cutting the diamondback's clip size down by half as well would be a welcome nerf or revert the amby to its former glory.
Damage reduction is not significant?
@@nsdapcommunism2780 15% is nothing on a spy revolver. You only lose anywhere from 3 to 9 damage on any non crit shot. Even worse, than damage reduction doesn't even play into any significant damage threshold.
Why not both?
It's worth mentioning that you're using the FJ crits on engineer, who is just as (or slightly less) squishy than the spy, but without any of the same benefits. An Engineer can't just cloak away or feign, he can't disguise himself and get into your backline and work his way up (I don't really count ninjaneering but that depends on who you ask), and he can't equip a weapon that gives him broken amounts of health for getting a kill.
Engineer has to put himself in more risk, with a smaller clip, deal with random bullet spread, and if he's not running the Gunslinger he most likely has no sentry. Engineer himself has enough setbacks built in to himself that the gun doesn't need many debuffs and stays balanced. Engineer gets caught out without crits, he's dead, he runs out of crits or has to reload his 3 shot FJ, he's dead unless he has the Eureka Effect and you don't get him in time.
Spy can have the Kunai and just farm health, which in turn means he can farm crits easier, and if he's put in a bad position he can feign death (while not as good as it used to be, the dead ringer is still very much good in pubs, though not quite broken). Spy has unlocks that make his life easier and has negligible enough downsides to the point they don't matter, I mean how often of a difference does the Kunai health debuff really matter. The Diamondback follows this pretty closely, he does 15% less damage which is incredibly negligible, and ideally the spy will have crits so that downside is even less relevant, hell without them The Diamondback is still a good finishing tool.
The Diamondback should have a firing speed penalty like that of The Enforcer in my opinion. If he wiffs that gives his opponent more time to react, if he hits he's still vulnerable for just enough time to have an impact. It'd be an actual tradeoff for the weapon, and not just a pointless stat debuff that technically makes it worse. The Diamondback could also implement crit falloff like The Ambassador, and I say that for the same reasons FishStickOnAStick brought up in his "In Defense of The Ambassador." However crit falloff in general does need to be more consistent. The firing speed nerf does make it more like The Ambassador, but I can't think of many impactful debuffs to apply that wouldn't require a complete rework of the weapon (which in my opinion they should just do).
@@nsdapcommunism2780not on the Diamondback, in 99% of cases the damage reduction does not actually change how many bullets it takes to get a kill.
The whole skill ceiling thing brings up an interesting argument on its own. People cry nerf when other players reach it, but I think this in itself is a symptom of a much bigger problem. Matchmaking fucking SUCKS. Nobody likes to be stomped, whether it be due to actually overpowered items and mechanics, or because they got matched against a player they really have no business playing against. It's one thing to get matched against someone slightly better than you. You can make the argument that you can learn from fighting better players. But at a certain point the skill disparity is so large that it's not even a fight anymore. It's just playground bullying and not fun. If matchmaking actually functioned like...a matchmaking system and put players of similar skill levels together, this wouldn't be as prevalent of an issue.
true, but i still think there should be some lil mixing of skill levels, cause if not, we will have another halo infinit problem where scince everyone is just as good as you ALL THE TIME the game becomes just too stressing, having to constant fight for you survival without relaxing easy kills or unfare fight you know you gonna loose anyway, conclusion: isnt variaty still super important ?
same here, like how tf can a "new guy" (i hav abt 100 ish hours on the actual game, most of my other hours are idle/trading and stuff like dat) can be queued with fuckin ~sad mofo here~ with a 200k strange kill covered sniper rifle, and be called "matchmaking". i hate casual.
True, but the alternative is what we have now where the average player is frustrated by the people far above them in skill. Why do you think so many people are so vocal about their hatred for Sniper? I'm gonna drop a truth bomb on ya: The fact of the matter is that the majority of players just aren't that good at the game, myself included. Most people play the game casually, maybe investing only a couple hours at the end of a workday at most or even just a few hours a week to casually unwind. They're not gonna even come CLOSE to being able to fight someone who has devoted thousands of hours into mastering a single class or the game in general.
"Casual" Mode is a very deceptive name. You would think this is where you go to play the game casually, and to a degree it is. But it's hard to have casual fun when you're consistently stomped by the really good players who are also here to play the game casually. It's like if a professional MMA fighter had a "casual" bar fight with some random joe. Maybe it's casual for the professional athlete, not gonna be a very casual experience for the guy fighting for his fucking life. The Scout is not gonna have a very fun time in a "casual" fistfight with Saxton Hale. Extreme example, but it gets the point across. A lot of casual matches end up turning into sweaty tryhard fests as the less-skilled players are kinda forced to try hard if they even want to play on this server if there's a skilled person on the other team who can kill people with a literal flick of the wrist while not even trying that hard. And then the skilled player gets demonized for just playing the game, maybe he gets kicked, and nobody is having fun.
The only real solution is to put like-minded players together so that more people are actually able to play the video game. Because as it currently stands, the more casual playerbase hates the skilled minority with a burning passion for essentially ruining the game for them, and we can't dispute that subjective experience. But the skilled players have every right to play too and it's not fair for them to be demonized. So the only real solution is to separate the playerbase, at least to a degree. I agree that some mixing is still good for the overall health of the game, but maybe the guy with 5000+ hours on Sniper alone shouldn't be matched up against players that only have a few hundred hours in the game. I feel like there should be some sort of system in place that at least protects the more casual players with only a few hundred hours from being matched against masters of the game.
....Or Valve could just fucking fix the official Competitive mode so the skilled players actually have a viable alternative to flock to. That'd be great. Maybe make that steaming pile of hot garbage actually function and make it worth playing. I'm not a competitive player by any means, but I feel like this very simple thing would fix a lot of problems in Casual matchmaking. Just throw the Competitive players a bone.
It also doesn't help that TF2 itself is very, very bad at teaching new players. Why do you think the Gibus stereotype exist
casual where people of different skill levels can fight each other and ranked for those who want to be put with people around the same skill levels
The Diamondback has this very interesting skill ceiling to me. When you think of something like the Scorch Shot or the Short Circuit or whatever, you can picture any skill level using it to an effective degree as it’s easy to pick up and just piss everyone off. With the Diamondback however, it’s a bit different in my opinion. A new player using the Diamondback will get little to no use out of it since they’re new and don’t understand how Spy fully works yet. An average player might get some pretty good use out of the Diamondback but might have issues with aim and precision or will get unlucky and swarmed. A master player (aka one that has like 5k hours or more) can fully abuse this mechanic to its fullest and make the server a living hell. This is just my take on the weapon tho, but I do feel it’s definitely a very aggravating weapon to fight against especially when the Spy you’re fighting against is really good
to be completely honest, any skilled god-tier player will dominate any server no matter what you would force 'em to use
stock, diamondback, amby? who cares when the guy can get either to work perfectly
same way with classes, a god-tier soldier is as annoying to deal with as a scout
The Diamondback is a performance multiplier for spy, if you're doing good as spy, it will help you do even better, but if you're not doing good then is a straight downgrade
Randomly found your channel, saw the anime pfp and expected a stuffy mic spy main with mediocre vids. Was actually blown away by the production quality and had a few good laughs as well, subbed!
Its an uphill battle having an anime pic. Appreciate you looking past it!
9:50
The thing is not that "people don't enjoy high skill ceiling".
It's that they are frustrated that there's none.
There is no practical difference between a cheater and a godly sniper on the receiving end.
@@kubaGR8 there absolutely is
people don't seem to realise that if they're trying not to get killed by a godly sniper, a cheater would have killed them approximately 7 seconds ago, along with the rest of the team.
@@ME0WMERE A typical aimbot cannot shoot through walls, and neither can a good sniper.
A typical aimbot will spin 180 and blast you in the head if blatant, which a pro will not do, but an aimbot can be configured to not do that.
There's many, many more ways people can tweak their cheats to make them less blatant. They should still be banned on principle of course, but the thing is: past a certain point, a cheater and a pro player have the same effect on the game. I don't care if the sniper is really good or smartly using some cheat software while staying down low, both are miserable to play with.
Case in point: CS:GO's overwatch system. People are viewing another person's PoV and still can't agree if hacks or not a good chunk of the time.
do not unnerf the ambi. the comunity would riot
Yeah honnestly the item is alright, if you want to use a gun at long range just play fcking sniper
i completely agree - i think the problem lies within the ambassador nerf more than the diamondback itself - unnerf the ambassador and poof, less frequent unskilled plays.
Well yes, hiding spy's most busted weapon under a bunch of bad frag movies might reduce complaints but won't fix the actual stomper annihilating servers with it. Real bad take here.
counterpoint:
bots that can do 6 headshots with bunnyhopping
4:52 this man destroyed his entire argument to sniper being balanced
A thing with Frontier Justice is that, while you yourself (usually) dont have to do anything with crits it gets, your team does. If sentry gets destroyed while having ZERO kills or assists, it gives no crits. In 98% cases, sentry spot is obvious and dying to it is easy to avoid. This still could be unfair to you personally, but still much less than crits that are completely random or (in case of Diamondback) easy to gain since spy's sneakiness means its very easy for him to find "something" to backstab or sap.
Peoples are used to TF2 being chaotic and casual, but actually when there is skilled player in enemy team, it's very hard to even run, not just get backstab.
@@UberSpah a skilled player is sure dangerous and their presence is imposing, but they're still just one player. They can't be everywhere. With spy excelling at striking where he's not expected, he can often strike where that one skilled player is not present. You need 3-4 or more skilled players in your team to cover majority of the map more or less reliably.
That being said, spies in general are not hard to stop by actually coordinated team. At best they manage to get those crits on rare occasion some gibus engie strays away, or they get away with a trickstab and somehow don't get killed in two seconds.
The one thing that I always question is why the Diamondback doesn’t have a slower firing speed. The Ambassador and Diamondback have the same downsides (No random crits and -15% damage penalty), but the Ambassador has a 20% slower firing speed and Diamondback doesn’t.
The spy's revolver already shoots faster than most people can aim and track with, that won't really do anything. It didn't do anything to make the Enforcer any less hated back in the heyday of Dr. Enforcicle.
Okay, Imma say this - The no damage fall off is broken, since you can two shot light classes just like you could before Jungle Inferno with the Ambassador, but comparing the Spy to the Sniper might be a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
A lot of times you can't quite pick your targets like the Sniper without almost zero consequences - Lemme explain: Sniper often times has a clear view of the frontlines, so he can pick off whoever he pleases that's in his sightlines, but often times Spy can't quite do that. Spy has to ballet through the enemy team, look convincing in his disguise and not bump anyone, he can't always pick as carefreely as Sniper can.
Spy has to take whatever he can, and that's what the Diamondback is for - To get out of sticky situations where you would have usually been dead based on (some) degree of skill (I say 'some' because I mean, it doesn't quite take a lot of skill to just keep bullying some F2P Engineer who just figured out that he can actually build stuff).
But regardless of that, I still agree that the no damage fall-off and building sapping make for too high of a reward setting, but if only those two were nerfed, I think all the complaints would be gone, since y'know, backstabbing / trickstabbing people takes a lot of effort to pull off a lot of times.
uhhh CLOAK
Yes, yes spy can in fact see the entire team, including people sniper can't, with no issue. Because he can go invisible.
@@vyor8837 You kind of skipped over the part where I mentioned not bumping into anyone, which is REALLY damn hard when there's a teamfight, even more so if there's a paranoid pyro
@@coolaman5 take a flank route
Issue with Diamondback is that you just play normal spy but now your gun is stronger than basically every other weapon at midrange. Emphasis on mid-range.
Engie also doesn't always have the ability to approach people, so he'll only be killing people who overstep against him for the most part. Spy however, can be wherever he wants for the most part, which is the flaw with the Diamondback. It gives spies a way to beatdown people after a backstab even if he is caught out. One of my gripes with the Diamondback is that I'll be paying attention as Medic, see a spy, chase after him/run away but before I can get to him/escape, he'll stab my teammate and instantly kill me. I didn't make a misplay, if the spy had any other revolver, I'd have been up 50 uber and a kill count/gone but I didn't know the spy actually can deal 2/3rds of my HP instantly.
Amby is in a great spot in my opinion. It still is a big boon to Spy's damage while still allowing people to run away or fight him. Since the spy needs to be insanely precise/wait a second between shots for perfect accuracy to get multiple crits. And the falloff means people who are retreating can actually get away.
Amby is perfect for killing snipers, finishing off injured players and dealing chip to strong units. It doesn't make the Spy a powerhouse or give him control over the battle, but it gives him a tool to threaten opponents and make them choose if they want to pick the fight.
Diamondback is good for killing heavies before they can ever rev up or gunning down literally anyone as the sneaky class regardless of if you catch them off guard.
Also, I was the Diamondback's biggest hater pre-Amby nerf. Always thought the weapon took the stock revolver and made it objectively better without making you actually play differently. Every scout primary and secondary makes you play the game and take engagements differently, every spy cloak and knife makes you play differently, yet the Diamondback changes nothing and rewards you for doing what you'd be doing with any other gun.
the amby isnt really a bad weapon, but "great spot" is a bit of a stretch considering landing a headshot past mid range does the same dmg as a letranger bodyshot
@@AbcDefg-tq3ju that's not true? Headshots only stop criting after 1200 hammer units, which is the length of the 2fort bridge. That... isn't mid range. Even rockets only do like 50 damage at that range.
i still havent switched to the diamondback because I like randomly getting a headshot against the cocky ubersaw medic that expects to get a random crit on me
Hey, great video. It's nice to see you still improving your motion graphics and overall storytelling. I agree that the Diamondback was dragged into the spotlight as a consequence of Jungle Inferno, (RIP Amby, Gone but not Forgotten) but I dont think that discussion around it would fade away with an Ambassador rework. You're assuming that TF2 players lack object permanence, which while true for the half that are underage or subscribed to Zesty Jesus, the rest of the playerbase would see an unchanged Diamondback as an upgrade and keep using it. The Ambassador was only arguably overpowered in the hands of players who invested the most time into it. Conversely, the Diamondback's strength comes from raw stats. You only need to stab the gibus engineer and hit a bodyshot to leverage its upside, which for almost everyone is much more feasible than hutting semi-consistent headshots. In a world where the Ambassador is reverted, I think the much more likely scenario is that Diamondback abusers would try the "broken enough to justify a nerf" Amby, realize it's hard, and go back to their preferred revolver after a week or two. Unfortunately, the cat's out of the bag. If the game ever receives more changes, hopefully Valve decides to stuff it back in and drown it.
Honestly speaking for myself / the spy mains i have talked to a lot of them would rather switch to the amby. I didnt mean for it to sound like they would just “forget” (although the zesty jesus fan jab is p funny lmao), but rather that spy players would prefer to use the old ambassador rather than the diamondback. (Cant speak for the ones i talked to, but anecdotally i would like to because of the potential damage the amby gives)
This is also coming from someone who hated the Diamondback wayyy before the amby nerf. Im sure people will still hate it, i just think the mass army of people who dislike it now would go away as quickly as they came
@@zenithzv removing dislikes and complaints is not fucking balance when some guy can still pick up the Diamondback and be busted with it. Hiding the problem under amby frag movies won't change the Diamondback when it truly gets around to killing you.
The reason why the Frontier Justice is balanced vs the Diamondback, is in the core design of the gun as a whole: one encourages playing passively, and only go aggressive if you know you can; while the other just makes you stronger for playing the same way you always do.
The Engineer is not a strong class without his buildings. He is basically a slower, weaker Scout. The Frontier Justice has half the clip, meaning you only get 3 shots, so without crits, it's a less effective Shotgun. In addition, Shotguns shoot pellets, which means they deal damage that scales with distance. In order to get the 180, you need to be in someone's face, otherwise a long range Frontier Justice shot is likely to do a whole 16 damage. This in addition to the fact that it only works if your Sentry has gotten some work, and then goes down; is what gives this weapon a fair design. As it has downsides that keep it balanced and rewarding. The Frontier Justice does require a shift in mindset, because you have to analyze the situation, to determine if you should save the gun, let it go down, or destroy it yourself; while also trusting in your own aim, and situational awareness during play; remember, you're still just an Engineer.
Meanwhile: The Diamondback has the same stats as the Stock revolver, minus the -15% damage penalty. Knocking your Revolver's base damage shot of 40, down to a whole... 34; OMG how game changing... but; in addition, Spy as a class is built with more methods to keep yourself out of danger. You can go invisible, disguises or Dead Ringer to easily get out. All you need is one backstab or building sapped, and your gun's pitiful damage goes up to a static 102 damage... from any range. Oh, and Revolvers are always 100% accurate on the first shot, so provided you don't spam it, you basically have a mini sniper rifle that doesn't require you to hit a headshot or change your playstyle... AT ALL. And all you have to do is play your class like normal, and you get free crits.
Engineer only gets hit Crits if he's put in a situation that leaves him vulnerable, and he can only capitalize on those crits if he has the skill, and knowledge to use them. Spy just gets 3x the damage on his gun for playing the class the same way as always. Where's the downside? Where's the drawback? In addition, Engineer can't disguise himself, and then smack someone for 102 from his disguise; because that's a fair mechanic.
Counterpoint: Fuck Engineer and people who main him.
I think that the problem is more so with spy itself, for me almost everytime I get killed by spy Its irritating because it feels like I couldn't do anything about it. The Diamondback certainly doesn't help in that regard but the weapon definitely not overpowed
You can pay attention to your surroundings and turn your back from time to time.
#alwaystauntphlogs
5:50 ah I see so people want to nerf spy because.... he's weak? Wtf is everyone talking about!? No, spy should atleast be as good as sniper cuz they're both usually single target elimination and for support one for the front line and the other for the back line but one is broken and the other has been nerfed to the ground
The way I see it, people want to nerf Spy because they're fine with being outplayed by any other class except for Spy. It seems to have become inherent that dying to a Spy caught in his act sticks with people far more than them dying to any other class in the game. They don't like Spy surviving after being caught.
@@breadbug6101 why do they stick with this mindset though? Why do they want spies to be dead when they're caught, and not given a fair chance to escape? Is this why they hated the DR?
@@ivantan2841 I’d assume this is why everyone hates the dead ringer; that plus the fact that the old dead ringer made Spy incredibly hard to kill.
As for why people stick with that mindset, I’ve no idea why. It’s as if everyone wants spy to rely on stealth and crappy melee hitreg, and have no other playstyle options like the other 8 classes have
3:33 "Damage reduction" wha-
LETS GOOOO NEW ZENITH VIDEO
i think unnerfing the amby would be pretty bad because it kinda removes the risk of spy, with spy's tools you can get past the frontline and get behind, if you get good enough at aiming you can just chill behind the enemy and pester them with constant 102s, you dont even have to bother going to the enemy and risk your life for a backstab, and if someone tries to chase you, you can just kill them or hide with your cloak
It ain't overpowered if I miss all my crits
"And when everyone's -super- overpowered, no one is" syndrome
>Nobody complained about the ambassador; it was just a Streisand Effect generated by a Valve nerf.
Except that wasn't the case, but OK lol.
Honestly people seriously need to just argue about reverting the Ambassador more than anything. Especially since they're more mad about dying to the weapon than actually using it. From my experience its a dumb weapon for sure, but I'd rather use the other options because I perform better with them. Spy is also the weakest class in the game so I mean it isn't a weapon that's honestly deserving of a nerf. And nerf airblast, cause it's really bullshit.
How would you nerf airblast? It is bullshit but it’s the only thing stopping W M1 from being the only way to play Pyro, aside from flare spam. Only thing I can think of is increase ammo cost but that would either invalidate the back burner or make it a direct upgrade
@@WarioTimeWarioTimeWarioTime smaller hitboxes, slower firing speed ig... Keeping the 'overpowered' ability of airblast as itself but upping the skill floor required to pull off a good airblast. A fair trade of reward for skill.
But that'll never be the case. Everyone complains about sniper's high skill ceiling, yet laugh when they held down m1 moved their mouse left and right and demolished an entire team just with a pocket medic...
Soldier mains trying not to complain about a minor counter to their class challenge: Extreme
TF2 players when Pyro isn't completely useless (they have a *burning* hatred toward the class for some reason)
airblast is a versatile and skill based tool that only really soldier mains whine about lol, i much prefer seeing pyros combo and airblast to them just wm1 maxing or scorch spamming but that is the most viable playstyle now sadly. idk why anyone would hate on airblasting when the class has much worse issues
The difference between Frontier Justice and Diamondback crits is that the Frontier Justice only deals 18 damage per shot compared to 102 >)
18 per pellet, with 10 pellets that have random bullet spread normally
@@nathanfivecoate5848 yeah but That's more the fact random bullet spread should not exist than the item not being Very strong
Frontier justice engineers after you destroy their sentry "now you've done and messed that plan up son because now I'm more powerful than before"
Thank you for watching, appreciate ya!
note* Jungle Inferno came out in 2017 not 2018. Time flies lmao
ALSO i say at one point that “tf2 is a series of 1v1s” and i was thinking about how you’re meant to prioritize one target at a time. So i just used the wrong words. Willing to take the L on that one :)
Likes / Dislikes as of 4/29/22:
Likes - 542
Dislikes - 51
Reverting a different weapon's nerf to make people stop using an overpowered item is not the take I expected to hear from this video. Just undoing it wouldn't make people forget how strong the Diamondback is, and it'd still be too powerful.
Yeah its a garbage take from a sniper apologist
What? Reverting the change cuts the amount of critz you have in half, and forces you to go after engineers for the reward, not just play normally, it was perfectly fine before the buff because of that
@@dbelow_1556 I'm referring to the suggestion in the video to revert the Ambassador's nerf to make it relatively stronger so people just wouldn't use the Diamondback.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh sorry, I read it wrong, still, I think reverting the changes for both is a good idea. The amby got kicked into the dirt for nothing
Legit the dumbest thing i've heard. Follows the League balance philosphy, and take a looksie how enjoyable that game is.
6:05 brilliant song choice. Love me some egg carrier music
5:14
>Misses twice
>Teabags
I personally think that the diamondback should instead get crits when a sapper is operating on a building, so that it could work almost as a way so that spies could make it more difficult for a engi or py-bro to take out, allowing it overall better for situations where you need to take out a decently sized engi nest. Perhaps any downsides made could reflect this use, perhaps a normal damage decrease and decreased health on user (similar to the big earner or kunai) so that it is primary specialized for just that use, rather than it just being op in all situations.
Amby deserved a better fate
Love this gun i dont even use it but i find it super funny watching a spy pull it out and miss 4 shots but still getting you with the 5th due to storing so many crits
Weapon reskins in TF2
"The Diamondback is without a doubt the most discussed, and most loathed item in all of TF2."
The scorch shot:
Spy pulling out the Diamondback: "I'm the worst class in the game and Imma make it EVERYONE'S PROBLEM"
Im waiting for you to blow up man. Its so good to see new generations of tf2 youtubers 15 years after the game's release
You can say a similar thing about other "____ on kill/hit" items as well...
Many just ruin matchups because you have an ally that gets killed by them
This becomes really apparent with some things... Diamondback, Zatoichi, Eyelander, Ubersaw, Bazaar Bargain, etc...
The issue with the DB at least is that the downside is so negligible that it doesn't matter....
"Is this really fair?" Shows the thing sniper can do by default. 7:50
Diamond Justice: gain a guranteed crit when upon building level up.
You know, the fact that the Ambi was also able to do the exact same shit as the Diamondback if you could hit headshots is not an argument against the Jungle Inferno nerf.
3:00 pov: spy holding his gun with 2 hands
“Always use Jschlatt background music” - Sun Tzu
Sniper's balance is odd since nowadays the tf2 Bot invasion makes sniper op (they dont have to learn to aim, they auto lock on you, they always Headshot, and you need at least a Vaccinator Med to get past while as a Fist of Steel Heavy) and the Frontier Justice rewards good placement and helps the engineer with the Battle Engi playstyle, but the Diamondback needs the same nerf as the Ambassador (BUT NOT 1200 HAMMER UNITS DEAR GOD WHY IS IT THAT SHORT!)
i was thinking that reducing snipers base rifle damage by 20% would be a good nerf... quick scopes reduce light classes to 5 hp and fully charged headshots deal 360, matching crockets and allowing overhealed heavies to survive. balanced around the other classes.
"Pyro stupid" -zenith tf2
Im glad that no one uses it other than non spy mains. Like i have not seen a single spy main worth their salt run this for an extended amount of time.
You’ve brought it up in a decent amount of video now so im curious if you would be willing to make a video elaborating on your thoughts about airblast? Stuff like what you dont like about it and what you would change about it would be interesting to hear.
i think the diamondback should revert back to mini crits but the damage penalty be -25% and have mini crit be the explosive shots it has in it's original game, the explosion should be like the scorch shot without the after burn
it should have either an extra damage penalty or minicrits. Not both. -25% damage + minicrits is just the original damage again.
And explosive shots have absolutely _no_ business with spy. Doesn't fit the class in the slightest.
Minicrits fucking suck tho
I'd rather die from a guaranteed crit over getting random critted or shooting random crit, fuck random crits
7:50 The ambassador was the same damn way before it got nerfed, only difference was it was by headshot only. Still doesn't make it fair to be headshotted across the map and then see in the killcam it was a spy and NOT a sniper like you would expect.
Obviously the Diamondback should be nerfed, but do NOT bring back the amby
holy shit, the editing on this is beautiful
hi mayo 👋
@@rawccoon OMG HEYYYY!!!!! 👋
I just like the way the diamond back looks
What I'd like for Spy is a gun that stuns engi buildings on hit as well as blocking new overheal from being added to a target, both 2s long.
Just make it have 2 shots, 500% reload time but reloads when put away.
I totally agree with your phrase at the end. It just sums everything up.
It's kinda like the wrap assassin where it used to be a worse sandman but now it's a better sandman.
dog this sounds like a soundsmith skit
Diamondback + dead ringer + kunai = I use the dumb engi main on your team to become OP and now you can’t stop me
Whole video was amazing, but oh my lord 2:30 had me wheezing lmao, as someone who plays valorant that was perfect
the end sounds like a ted talk
I have rarely ever heard anyone talk or use the diamond back because of a certain other spy weapon
Honestly with all the times nerfed two weapons because they were "Linked" like the Natascha and Brass Beast, the ambassador and Diamond back are the only two that should have been nerfed together but they weren't.
Bro how did you not know when my brother jungle came out tf man?
The risk and reward of the diamondback plays in the spy himself spy is already risk and reward so all the diamondback is doing is adding on to his playstyle
Meanwhile I'm here, completely sucking at being able to aim, missing my diamondback crits 6 out of 6 shots on a stationary target
Meanwhile im here, who uses the diamondback mainly because it looks cool
1:16 the Vax and kunai 💀
The unfun vs. overpowered debate is something that i have mentioned a lot in tetris, basically there are setups in tetris that can kill players and feel extremely repetitive and boring, but are completely counterable but, as you said, i would rather go through a lobotomy over playing sdpc every round. But bad players still cry overpowered despite putting no effort to counter the tens of hours the sdpc user has spent learning their strat.
people don’t like sniper because unlike other classes with high skill ceilings, you can’t counter him unless you’re better than him at his own game
or you just... flank him.
@@vyor8837 assuming that’s an option
@@Lethal_Spoon if it isn't an option then it's a sign of bad map design, just like most CTF maps are poorly designed when it comes to engineer stacking.... or how most maps can't really deal with engie stacking tbh.
@@vyor8837 that’s also assuming that the available flank route isn’t packed with enemies as well
@@Lethal_Spoon are you complaining that you aren't allowed to just instantly achieve your goal with no resistance?
Atleast when I die to this I know that the spy had to do something to get ir
Suggestion: backstabs don't give you crits, only sapping does
Been playing tf2 since i was like 11 and I always liked the diamondback over the ambassador and now everyone sees the light
1:58 not the Bison, my beauty here is perfectly balanced
a big thing is that you cant see the spy has crits, with engie you can see he has crits at least
Bad take, just because the Ambassador's corpse is stopping the Diamondback from destroying servers to this very day does not mean that it's busted stats go away when you buff the Ambassador. It's wishful thinking. I WANT more people to use the Diamondback instead so that people actually fucking notice that this weapon is banned from multiple comp formats for a reason and is hilariously busted. Did you know you can store Diamondback crits without even equipping the weapon, then redeeming all the crits just by swapping weapons at resupply? Because that's a thing.
I think a good concept to make the Diamondback not overpowered is by giving it a meter that charges after 2 kills. After you charge the meter, When you switch the the Diamondback you gain mini crits for 4 seconds but you cannot disguise when the effect is active. What do you think?
No
@@Kurokami112 explain why you disagree
That's how you make a weapon useless
@@Kurokami112 not a proper explanation = not a valid argument
@@samdaman2939 A Diamondback minicrit is 46 damage per shot, 3 shots needed to kill a squishy, same as stock, meaning it would be worse than stock 90% of the time and the last 10% would be on the same level as stock
Shit design. NEXT!
i bet valve is gonna eventualy say "shut up spy is one of the most hardest classes to master and nerfing his kit to the point where he's useless in every game is stupid so shut up and stop giving spy hate" i feel like spy main haters would probably push valve to nerf the stock loadout, remove his ability to backstab, make him revolver only or just straight up remove him entirely
Crit a Cola + Shortstop
I struggle to remember there ever being a time there wasn't a singular best in class spy revolver. The cloak gun was always poor combat for utility, but among stock, enforcer, ambassador, and diamondback, the revolvers that are stated for combat, one was always clearly above the others. Today there is very little reason to use the ambassador, stock, or enforcer over the diamondback. Pre-ambassador nerf there was very little reason to use any combat revolver besides ambassador, even if you couldn't consistently aim for heads you are more likely to happen to hit the head than random crit, and the occasions where you can take the time to line up a shot made the lower damage well worth it regardless of skill level. Before that there was pre-nerf enforcer with its increase to damage when lacking a disguise, where all but the most confidant spy players have little reason to use the ambassador when the enforcer two shots anyways.
All of spys slots suffer from this, where there is a pretty obvious best in slot weapon, and while the other options are still viable, as long as there is consistently at least one or two bad players on the other team (which is nearly guaranteed on most servers) diamondback+kunai (and usually deadringer) is simply the best. One of the reasons this is so frustrating is that it makes bad teamates not just dead weight, but a liability. One clueless sniper means you consistently have a 200 health spy with at least one guaranteed crit
Reverting the Ambassador would be a return to status quo of one best weapon syndrome. What the spy revolvers (besides french name cloak gun, it's doing this right) need is to have more distinct roles. My first idea for Diamondback is to put a time limit on the crits, so in order to use them the spy has to go directly from a stab to shooting, making it potent in chain stab scenarios but reducing the spies ability to one shot in sporadic 1v1's.
Other funny ideas: It is frustrating how you have no idea if a spy has crits stored or not when they are disguised. Every other guaranteed crit effect has very obvious effects. So what if the Diamondback did too? What if the crit sheen applied to your disguise, meaning you would need to keep the gun stowed for your disguise to have much value.
What if the diamondback crits could not be accessed at the weapons fire rate? Either with a recharge per crit or something more involved like only being able to shoot a critical shot if the clip is full, forcing a reload before you can crit again. A crit into a normal shot still downs light classes so not sure how much effect this has.
Will this one have a LMFAO cover too only time will tell.
🤔
Gam is gam and gam = gamer and gamer = rage
For me the worst part of the diamondback is that the crit works while disguised
1:08 December 20, 2013 Patch
Backstab kills now gains a critical attack.
5:50 funny ragdoll
spys frontier justice
I have never agreed with a video more While headsehots from across the map were unfun, they require skill. This video puts my thoughts on spy revolvers on a tee. I still have people complain when I hit a headshot with the Ambo, but I just tell them that, "I can't aim for shit, so if I headshot you, you messed up your mivement." I have never won a conversation with this, but it sure as he'll is correct. The Ambi is not broken, just very good when reaching the for the skill ceiling. As said by one of the other comments, the quote at the end of the video is absolutely correct. Screw people for ruining the 1 skill based primary that spy had, and replacing it with a better, not skill required revolver. Plus, not to be too hopeful, with TF2 getting new updates, we might eventually get weapon balances. Unlikely, but still would be wonderful.
The reason Sniper and old Amby and now Diamondback are hated is because it removes the other player almost entirely from the equation. If a sniper misses, he dies, pretty much regardless of the other player's skill level. If he hits, he wins. That's not fun or even fair to fight. The other player may as well be an NPC.
Well the problem with Soldier is that he has the direct hit and if he hits you you lose instantly regardless of your skill. You're basically an NPC.
Well the problem with Medic is that he can turn people invincible and then the other player just loses regardless of their skill.
Well the problem with Demoman is that he can one shot 7 of the 9 classes just by right clicking when he's close to them regardless of the other player's skill (stickies, max rampup, deal 182 damage, give or take).
The problem with heavy is that he can kill anyone in less than a second if they run into him while revved up, making them effectively an NPC because it doesn't matter how skilled they are...
unnerf the ambassador
A simple but significant change to the diamondback would be to not let it crit while disguised and a few milisecond after. Its stupid how you cannot see the crit.
Compared to Frontier justice where you can see the engineer holding a boosted shotgun, or he could hide it to give himself and advantage closer.
Spy's most hated weapon allows him to do 100some hitscan damage after you get a backstab or a sapper destruction.
While there is a whole class that does 150 damage after you install the game. Interesting...
Spy can:
Turn invisible, tank 500 damage hits, heal and become the tankiest class in the game with every backstab, disguise (which hides his crits), and see enemy health
Sniper can:
Aim good, sometimes (every 20 seconds) throw a jar of pee and then hit someone with a knife for way too much damage because fuck that combo
Pretty Great Coverage
Sad loss of Spy’s Designated Skill Gun
Real Sad
Ambi mains trying to argue:
Install aimbot, it makes ambasador better than daimondback"
It'd be interesting if the diamond back received a -20% damage and a stat that makes the critical hits expire after some time and also have the same damage falloff that the ambassador has
-20% is all it really needs. There’s no reason why it should ever 2 shot a full heath soldier.
or maybe way reduced clip sized if that seems too little to enforce that the hit does matter, or slower reload?
@@simplysmiley4670 Maybe reduce the clip size to 3 like the Frontier Justice? That way, you can at least kill a regular Heavy in 1 clip, but you still have to make sure you land all of those critical hits.
4:36 text is
#ALWAYS
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