Often when I hear Schillinger mentioned there is disdain, caution, baggage, trepidation, dislike, tales of bombast and egomania. His books or method described as turgid, laden with graphs and mathematical abstraction, exhausting to wade through, not recommended unless you are someone who enjoys reading appliance owners manuals in German. But through a few rarified You Tube videos such as this one from Frans Absil Music I am being introduced to bite size morsels of this body of work that I find immediately cogent and comprehensive. And I’ve read that back in the day the best musicians like Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman(?) wanted to study with this man. The Berkeley School of Music was initially founded to promulgate his principles. I think I may have found something I can really sink my teeth into. The fact that a lot of people don’t like it makes me all the more want to read his books.
@robbes7rh. Thanks for this comment. Indeed, the Schillinger controversy is not likely to disappear, and the polarisation will carry on. Hopefully music students do get something valuable and useful from his work; I did. Even after reading a Volkswagen manual in three languages, including German, I did not manage to set the inside mirror attitude. Learning how to fold the outside mirrors with the engine running amounts to a PhD degree (I now should apply at NASA). Glad to hear you always seem to pick up something inspiring from these videos. The Schillinger legacy at and fight with the Berklee College of Music seems to be a rather nasty story (read about it online, but I have no inside knowledge). Happy Christmas holidays!
If I have no mind to compose, I can use some of these rhythm combinations to write an interesting music segment. Thank you for introducing the system, and I reckon it will be useful in my future composition.
@clouddai1338 Pleased to hear that this rhythm generating video tutorial has useful approaches for your future compositions. Be careful and decide whether any of the fundamental Schillinger rhythms is suitable for your personal style; it may require some 'molding' (variations, cutting up, etc) before you discover a derived rhythm that fits your musical phrases better. Thanks for the feedback.
@udomatthiasdrums5322 This tutorial was made after receiving a number of requests, although not everybody is happy with the result. It should help in studying the Schillinger source material, the infamous two-volume System book series. Thanks for the positive feedback.
Great presentation. It's strange that Schillinger's books have not made it into mainstream academia. Schillinger was the founder of 'The Schillinger School of Music' which later changed its name to 'The Berklee College of Music', yes the one in Boston, MA. There is a ton of ideas for software developers in his books and that is also strange why very little has been done in that direction. Did the Cancel Culture started already in the 1930's?
No, cancel culture did not start in the 1930's, but that's an argument for another day, god knows. Schillinger's system was very popular for probably around a decade, but because of the way it was packaged, it didn't really stick. Schillinger's theories are dense and difficult to read, and his use of mathematics was often misguided and pseudo scientific. Basically, there are better, more effective ways to teach and look at music as a whole. That said, Schillinger's theories are incredible from a practical standpoint. I've seen his works described as a box of tricks, and I think that's a really good way of putting it. Mostly though, I think his work didn't stick because it's just not really very good. I say this with love of his system, and the music he and his students created. Schillinger has been a massive source of musical education for me, but I think the general consensus is that he's wonderful at making interesting ideas seem like more than just interesting ideas. Schillinger's ideas were interesting, quirky, and wrong, and I think time has a way of filtering those kinds of theories out into the mainstream much more subtly than it does with correct, more boring theories. Without Schillinger, we wouldn't have Porgy and Bess or Giant Steps, and though it's sort of tragic that his work is mostly forgotten, it's also okay. It reminds me of the Halcyon in that Hbomberguy video actually, come to think of it.
@UGENICA Thanks for the feedback. The transition from the Schillinger System education (mail correspondence) into Berklee College of Music did not go without a legal battle, from what I read. The system did not become part of a established academic curricula for reasons listed in the reply by Adam J. Some elements from the system have been considered for or implemented in music composition software (but it's a while since I looked into that, so I do not remember product names, unfortunately).
@Adam J not the congressman Schiff, Well, thank you for a most balanced overview of the Schillinger System value. I nicely sums up arguments in favor of and against the system. Also for me the educational value was immense during a time period when I wanted to further practical knowledge for writing music. I would always recommend to study scores, read (other) books, learn from the masters, and experiment to find/develop your personal style. What I am trying to do on this channel is to save the Schillinger System from near-total oblivion. There is still value in his approach (generalization of concepts), and when you're out of inspiration, or in a hurry, sketching with Schillinger techniques will almost certainly get you going. Let the filtering then do the rest. The Hbomberguy reference is new to me. Will have to look into that.
@@adamjnotthecongressmanschi7026 I wrote a program that does the Cycles in all keys with major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, harmonic major and double harmonic scales. It will print out a pdf if guitar grids with dots where to put your fingers. Not sure what to do with it now that its done, it does all chord types triads, 7ths, 11s, 9ths, rootless, 3 & 4 part quartal harmony. Its based on Harmony book
By far the easiest way to calculate the "interference" pattern is as follows. Suppose we want to calculate the interference pattern of a=3t and b=5t. First determine the least common multiple (lcm) of 3 and 5 = 15. Then generate all multiples of 3 and all multiples of 5, starting from 0, and smaller than the least common multiple 15 (from 15 on, the pattern repeats exactly so no need to calculate anything larger than lcm 15) and sort ascending: [ 0=0x3 or 0x5, 3 = 1x3, 5 = 1x5, 6 = 2x3, 9=3x3, 10=2x5, 12=4x3 ]. Next, take the difference vector, i.e. the difference of successive elements in the sorted list of multiples [3-0 = 3, 5-3 = 2, 6-5 = 1, 9-6 = 3, 10-9 = 1, 12-10 = 2]. The resulting numbers indicate the durations of the interference pattern: 3t+2t+1t+3t+t+2t. The first element in the this pattern is a strong beat as it can be generated by two different numbers (0x3 = 0x5 = 0). This method works for any a=q*t and b = p*t where q and p are random positive integers and is super easy to implement in a computer if desired. Moreover, you can also use it to calculate the interference pattern of more than 2 sequences.
e.g. interference pattern of 3 sequences a = 2t, b = 3t and c=5t: LCM(2,3,5) = 30. Ascending multiples of 2, 3 and 5 = [0(3), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6(2), 8, 9, 10(2), 12(2), 14, 15(2), 16, 18(2), 20(2), 21, 22, 24(2), 25, 26, 27, 28]. In the previous vector, notation (2) indicates that the number is generated by two different multiplications (which corresponds to two simultaneous onsets = stronger beat). Difference vector is [2^, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2^, 1, 1, 2^, 2^, 1, 1^, 2, 2^, 1, 1, 2, 1^, 1, 1, 1]. In the previous notation the ^ indicates a stronger beat due to two simultaneous onsets. So the resulting interference pattern would be 2T+1t+1t+1t+1t+2T+1t+1t+2T+2T+1t+1T+2t+2T+1t+1t+2t+1T+1t+1t+1t in which capital T indicates an accent (stronger beat) due to the two simultaneous onsets.
For fractioning (at least the way I understand it now from his book, which is not all that clear to be honest?) a similar method can be used. E.g. a=4t and b=3t. According to Schillinger we need a-b+1=2 groups of b-like onsets. The max element to consider is a*a = 4*4 = 16. Generate multiples of a=4 smaller than or equal to a*a=16: [0, 4, 8, 12, 16]. Generate a=4 multiples of b=3 [0, 3, 6, 9]. This is the first group of b-like onsets. Then generate 4 multiples of b and add the offset a=4 (this is the second group of b-like onsets): [4, 7, 10, 13]. Taking the union of all these multiples and sorting them ascending gives: [0, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16]. Difference vector: [3, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 3] gives the resultant.
@StefaanHimpe Thank you for providing the interference pattern algorithm for calculating the resultant attack-duration pattern in case of binary synchronisation. In my ebook on the Schillinger Theory of Rhythm I illustrated this process for several combinations of major and minor generator; that serves as a lookup reference for those of us who want to skip the mathematics involved. Your description indeed may be used for implementing this technique on a computer.
@StefaanHimpe Thanks for adding the calculation procedure for three rhythm generators, Chapter 6 in Schillinger's book on the Theory of Rhythm. Plus you introduce the aspect of strong vs. weak beats in the resultant pattern.
@StefaanHimpe As to the Schillinger rhythm fractioning technique, I hope that my ebook provides an alternative guide to this approach, with graphics and calculations. In essence this method has multiple 'clocks' (the minor generator) starting to tick at regular intervals determined by the major generator. You call this the offset, correctly. After the pattern starts to synchronise we have achieved the resultant attack-duration pattern. Thanks for your contribution to the subject, and Happy New Year 2025!
@Nathan Brydn You're welcome. I did read your comment in two ways: 1) Book 1 is the best in the set of Schillinger Books. Indeed, some chapters in the Theory of Rhythm introduce concepts that will return in the later books (e.g., permutations and combinations). 2) The Schillinger original is better than my Guide ebook. Well, in that case you fortunately did not need an additional source to understand the notation and concepts. Others have welcomed my efforts to clarify the Theory of Rhythm. Which interpretation of your statement is correct, obviously I cannot say. Thanks.
@Christopher Heckman, Whether grouping is an 'important' Schillinger concept is hard to say. I have always considered it a sort of 'outer loop' time/rhythm organization aspect, that controls rhythm pattern recurrence over multiple measures. Regular grouping (using the major /minor generator value) will lead to shorter patterns, but with irregular meter one may achieve longer patterns until recurrence. Thanks for the comment and sorry for the late reply.
So you feel that there is no difference between 3/4 time and 6/8 time? You feel that it is not important to make a distinction between duple and triple time or simple and compound time? I guess you are a four-on -the-floor guy. LOL
@steveallenmashburn8815 Thank you for the comment on time signatures. I did not check the video but guess that you are referring to an example about grouping in either 6/8 or 3/4. Maybe I said something confusing: the grouping process itself, that is dividing the attack-duration patterns into single measure / bar units, is identical for both since they consist of six 8th notes = 3 quarter note time-units. However, the interpretation of the resulting rhythm will be different, and that is what you are clarifying in your comment. I would not put four-to-the-floor guy in my resume, I strive to be more open to any 'fascinating rhythm'. Thanks, and sorry for the late reply (this one did not show up in my YT notifications).
@@FransAbsil I was replying to a poster who felt that grouping was an unnecessary procedure. I did listen to his music and he is indeed a four-on-the-floor rock guy - not that there is anything wrong n that except it is somewhat limiting in musical choices.
@@steveallenmashburn8815 My question was purely in the situation of Schillinger's book. He introduces the concept of grouping and then doesn't say any more (explicitly) about it after that. And this is before time signatures were introduced in his book, so he's not really linking the two. Yes, 4/4 is kind of a default for me 8-), but then again it is for most people. Don't worry; I'm working on something that is in 4/4, 12/8, and (briefly) 5/4. One of these years I might post it (or something else I've done).
@Wolfheart This is a normal response when unfamiliar synapses and neurons are being triggered so intensely. Nothing to be worried about: it is a temporary symptom, no long-term detrimental effects have been observed after watching these tutorials ;-)
Often when I hear Schillinger mentioned there is disdain, caution, baggage, trepidation, dislike, tales of bombast and egomania. His books or method described as turgid, laden with graphs and mathematical abstraction, exhausting to wade through, not recommended unless you are someone who enjoys reading appliance owners manuals in German. But through a few rarified You Tube videos such as this one from Frans Absil Music I am being introduced to bite size morsels of this body of work that I find immediately cogent and comprehensive. And I’ve read that back in the day the best musicians like Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman(?) wanted to study with this man. The Berkeley School of Music was initially founded to promulgate his principles. I think I may have found something I can really sink my teeth into. The fact that a lot of people don’t like it makes me all the more want to read his books.
@robbes7rh. Thanks for this comment. Indeed, the Schillinger controversy is not likely to disappear, and the polarisation will carry on. Hopefully music students do get something valuable and useful from his work; I did. Even after reading a Volkswagen manual in three languages, including German, I did not manage to set the inside mirror attitude. Learning how to fold the outside mirrors with the engine running amounts to a PhD degree (I now should apply at NASA). Glad to hear you always seem to pick up something inspiring from these videos. The Schillinger legacy at and fight with the Berklee College of Music seems to be a rather nasty story (read about it online, but I have no inside knowledge). Happy Christmas holidays!
If I have no mind to compose, I can use some of these rhythm combinations to write an interesting music segment. Thank you for introducing the system, and I reckon it will be useful in my future composition.
@clouddai1338 Pleased to hear that this rhythm generating video tutorial has useful approaches for your future compositions. Be careful and decide whether any of the fundamental Schillinger rhythms is suitable for your personal style; it may require some 'molding' (variations, cutting up, etc) before you discover a derived rhythm that fits your musical phrases better. Thanks for the feedback.
love it!!
@udomatthiasdrums5322 This tutorial was made after receiving a number of requests, although not everybody is happy with the result. It should help in studying the Schillinger source material, the infamous two-volume System book series. Thanks for the positive feedback.
Great presentation. It's strange that Schillinger's books have not made it into mainstream academia. Schillinger was the founder of 'The Schillinger School of Music' which later changed its name to 'The Berklee College of Music', yes the one in Boston, MA. There is a ton of ideas for software developers in his books and that is also strange why very little has been done in that direction. Did the Cancel Culture started already in the 1930's?
No, cancel culture did not start in the 1930's, but that's an argument for another day, god knows. Schillinger's system was very popular for probably around a decade, but because of the way it was packaged, it didn't really stick. Schillinger's theories are dense and difficult to read, and his use of mathematics was often misguided and pseudo scientific. Basically, there are better, more effective ways to teach and look at music as a whole. That said, Schillinger's theories are incredible from a practical standpoint. I've seen his works described as a box of tricks, and I think that's a really good way of putting it. Mostly though, I think his work didn't stick because it's just not really very good.
I say this with love of his system, and the music he and his students created. Schillinger has been a massive source of musical education for me, but I think the general consensus is that he's wonderful at making interesting ideas seem like more than just interesting ideas. Schillinger's ideas were interesting, quirky, and wrong, and I think time has a way of filtering those kinds of theories out into the mainstream much more subtly than it does with correct, more boring theories. Without Schillinger, we wouldn't have Porgy and Bess or Giant Steps, and though it's sort of tragic that his work is mostly forgotten, it's also okay.
It reminds me of the Halcyon in that Hbomberguy video actually, come to think of it.
@UGENICA Thanks for the feedback. The transition from the Schillinger System education (mail correspondence) into Berklee College of Music did not go without a legal battle, from what I read. The system did not become part of a established academic curricula for reasons listed in the reply by Adam J. Some elements from the system have been considered for or implemented in music composition software (but it's a while since I looked into that, so I do not remember product names, unfortunately).
@Adam J not the congressman Schiff, Well, thank you for a most balanced overview of the Schillinger System value. I nicely sums up arguments in favor of and against the system. Also for me the educational value was immense during a time period when I wanted to further practical knowledge for writing music. I would always recommend to study scores, read (other) books, learn from the masters, and experiment to find/develop your personal style. What I am trying to do on this channel is to save the Schillinger System from near-total oblivion. There is still value in his approach (generalization of concepts), and when you're out of inspiration, or in a hurry, sketching with Schillinger techniques will almost certainly get you going. Let the filtering then do the rest. The Hbomberguy reference is new to me. Will have to look into that.
@@adamjnotthecongressmanschi7026 I wrote a program that does the Cycles in all keys with major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, harmonic major and double harmonic scales. It will print out a pdf if guitar grids with dots where to put your fingers. Not sure what to do with it now that its done, it does all chord types triads, 7ths, 11s, 9ths, rootless, 3 & 4 part quartal harmony. Its based on Harmony book
@@SonicArchives oooh! Sounds neat! What if you used it over a few jazz standards?
By far the easiest way to calculate the "interference" pattern is as follows. Suppose we want to calculate the interference pattern of a=3t and b=5t. First determine the least common multiple (lcm) of 3 and 5 = 15. Then generate all multiples of 3 and all multiples of 5, starting from 0, and smaller than the least common multiple 15 (from 15 on, the pattern repeats exactly so no need to calculate anything larger than lcm 15) and sort ascending: [ 0=0x3 or 0x5, 3 = 1x3, 5 = 1x5, 6 = 2x3, 9=3x3, 10=2x5, 12=4x3 ]. Next, take the difference vector, i.e. the difference of successive elements in the sorted list of multiples [3-0 = 3, 5-3 = 2, 6-5 = 1, 9-6 = 3, 10-9 = 1, 12-10 = 2]. The resulting numbers indicate the durations of the interference pattern: 3t+2t+1t+3t+t+2t. The first element in the this pattern is a strong beat as it can be generated by two different numbers (0x3 = 0x5 = 0). This method works for any a=q*t and b = p*t where q and p are random positive integers and is super easy to implement in a computer if desired. Moreover, you can also use it to calculate the interference pattern of more than 2 sequences.
e.g. interference pattern of 3 sequences a = 2t, b = 3t and c=5t: LCM(2,3,5) = 30. Ascending multiples of 2, 3 and 5 = [0(3), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6(2), 8, 9, 10(2), 12(2), 14, 15(2), 16, 18(2), 20(2), 21, 22, 24(2), 25, 26, 27, 28]. In the previous vector, notation (2) indicates that the number is generated by two different multiplications (which corresponds to two simultaneous onsets = stronger beat). Difference vector is [2^, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2^, 1, 1, 2^, 2^, 1, 1^, 2, 2^, 1, 1, 2, 1^, 1, 1, 1]. In the previous notation the ^ indicates a stronger beat due to two simultaneous onsets. So the resulting interference pattern would be 2T+1t+1t+1t+1t+2T+1t+1t+2T+2T+1t+1T+2t+2T+1t+1t+2t+1T+1t+1t+1t in which capital T indicates an accent (stronger beat) due to the two simultaneous onsets.
For fractioning (at least the way I understand it now from his book, which is not all that clear to be honest?) a similar method can be used. E.g. a=4t and b=3t. According to Schillinger we need a-b+1=2 groups of b-like onsets. The max element to consider is a*a = 4*4 = 16. Generate multiples of a=4 smaller than or equal to a*a=16: [0, 4, 8, 12, 16]. Generate a=4 multiples of b=3 [0, 3, 6, 9]. This is the first group of b-like onsets. Then generate 4 multiples of b and add the offset a=4 (this is the second group of b-like onsets): [4, 7, 10, 13]. Taking the union of all these multiples and sorting them ascending gives: [0, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16]. Difference vector: [3, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 3] gives the resultant.
@StefaanHimpe Thank you for providing the interference pattern algorithm for calculating the resultant attack-duration pattern in case of binary synchronisation. In my ebook on the Schillinger Theory of Rhythm I illustrated this process for several combinations of major and minor generator; that serves as a lookup reference for those of us who want to skip the mathematics involved. Your description indeed may be used for implementing this technique on a computer.
@StefaanHimpe Thanks for adding the calculation procedure for three rhythm generators, Chapter 6 in Schillinger's book on the Theory of Rhythm. Plus you introduce the aspect of strong vs. weak beats in the resultant pattern.
@StefaanHimpe As to the Schillinger rhythm fractioning technique, I hope that my ebook provides an alternative guide to this approach, with graphics and calculations. In essence this method has multiple 'clocks' (the minor generator) starting to tick at regular intervals determined by the major generator. You call this the offset, correctly. After the pattern starts to synchronise we have achieved the resultant attack-duration pattern. Thanks for your contribution to the subject, and Happy New Year 2025!
.
thank you
3:54 the first book is the best
.
@Nathan Brydn You're welcome. I did read your comment in two ways: 1) Book 1 is the best in the set of Schillinger Books. Indeed, some chapters in the Theory of Rhythm introduce concepts that will return in the later books (e.g., permutations and combinations). 2) The Schillinger original is better than my Guide ebook. Well, in that case you fortunately did not need an additional source to understand the notation and concepts. Others have welcomed my efforts to clarify the Theory of Rhythm. Which interpretation of your statement is correct, obviously I cannot say. Thanks.
I never really understood why Schillinger considered grouping to be an important concept. It just didn't seem to me like it was necessary.
@Christopher Heckman, Whether grouping is an 'important' Schillinger concept is hard to say. I have always considered it a sort of 'outer loop' time/rhythm organization aspect, that controls rhythm pattern recurrence over multiple measures. Regular grouping (using the major /minor generator value) will lead to shorter patterns, but with irregular meter one may achieve longer patterns until recurrence. Thanks for the comment and sorry for the late reply.
So you feel that there is no difference between 3/4 time and 6/8 time? You feel that it is not important to make a distinction between duple and triple time or simple and compound time? I guess you are a four-on -the-floor guy. LOL
@steveallenmashburn8815 Thank you for the comment on time signatures. I did not check the video but guess that you are referring to an example about grouping in either 6/8 or 3/4. Maybe I said something confusing: the grouping process itself, that is dividing the attack-duration patterns into single measure / bar units, is identical for both since they consist of six 8th notes = 3 quarter note time-units. However, the interpretation of the resulting rhythm will be different, and that is what you are clarifying in your comment. I would not put four-to-the-floor guy in my resume, I strive to be more open to any 'fascinating rhythm'. Thanks, and sorry for the late reply (this one did not show up in my YT notifications).
@@FransAbsil I was replying to a poster who felt that grouping was an unnecessary procedure. I did listen to his music and he is indeed a four-on-the-floor rock guy - not that there is anything wrong n that except it is somewhat limiting in musical choices.
@@steveallenmashburn8815 My question was purely in the situation of Schillinger's book. He introduces the concept of grouping and then doesn't say any more (explicitly) about it after that. And this is before time signatures were introduced in his book, so he's not really linking the two.
Yes, 4/4 is kind of a default for me 8-), but then again it is for most people. Don't worry; I'm working on something that is in 4/4, 12/8, and (briefly) 5/4. One of these years I might post it (or something else I've done).
There has got to be a better way to explain this. Useful knowledge, bad teacher.
All this has done is giving me a headache🤣
@Wolfheart This is a normal response when unfamiliar synapses and neurons are being triggered so intensely. Nothing to be worried about: it is a temporary symptom, no long-term detrimental effects have been observed after watching these tutorials ;-)