Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny isn't a topic I had planned to talk about again, but the Director James Mangold put an end to that. Coming out and calling people divisive, implying they're making up their opinions just to lie about how they felt about the movie is the height of arrogance. Genuinely thinking everyone loves the movie, they're just lying to you about it, or too thick to understand a character arc. It can't be your writing that's the problem! And as for Harrison Fords fan appreciation video 2 weeks after it's already failed as a last ditch hope...how transparent can you be? But what did you think? Let me know your thoughts down below and as always, thanks for watching :)
Fans: you wrote this side character to be an irritating Mary Sue, why couldn’t she be more like Marion- Hollywood: oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you *hated women so much you seXIST PIECE OF SH-*
And no matter WHAT they say, or call us, they're the incompetent braindeads that somehow couldn't turn a profit on one of the most valuable IPs in cinema. Nothing will stop them from going down in history as unmitigated and abject FAILURES. 😂
"...life is disappointing" doesn't need to be explained to me in a movie, I've LIVED it for myself when I lost my first born son unexpectedly when he was just in his thirties. I go to the movies to escape reality, not be hit over the head with it. Mangold's gotten too big for his britches and forgotten that his job is to entertain, not educate.
I’ve seen several online reviewers close to tears over this debacle. It’s obvious that for men of a certain age, the character of Indiana Jones is tightly bound up with their relationships with their own fathers, so this particular character debasement cuts a little deeper.
I stopped watching and counting anything Disney releases as cannon after Starwars was utterly destroyed. It's been great because i dont get upset at anything they do and just laugh at their failure. There are 3 Indiana Jones movies so I simply dont care what these loonies do?
Do yourself a favor and watch reviews of everything coming out to make sure the movie industry isn't trying to hurt, manipulate, or scam you with their movie. I had to quit going into theaters blind long ago for the sake of budget and sanity.
@@fench1234567 I've treated going to the movies now as an investment- not an indulgence, as I used to (I watched Zorro 2, _twice_ & The Fountain, in cinemas back in the day)- I'm no longer giving movies the benefit of the doubt, investing time & money into something I won't get a return on (entertainment, in the case of the John Wick series & Maverick- time shared with family, in the case of the John Farnham biopic- &/ or something genuinely thought-provoking, though certainly difficult to watch, in the case of 'Sound of Freedom')
The thing about Top Gun 2’s message is that Cruise’s actions in regards to how he handled that film, reflect his words to us. He really did try his hardest to give us something we haven’t seen before, all the while re-introducing an older character to a new audience and making them fall in love with him all over again. Cruise isn’t about just keeping it real when it comes to stunts and spectacle, he also did the same when it came to how his messages were projected. You don’t feel condescension, there is no preaching, and the beloved legacy character isn’t humiliated to prop up annoying, pathetic side characters.
Sadly, TG2 shows how badly the standards have been lowered. Not that it wasn’t still an enjoyable film overall, but they took more from old Star Wars than the latest New Star Wars movies did.
I do enjoy watching his interviews. Cruise always seems so nice and respectful on The Graham Norton Show. He was there with Seth MacFarlane who has made fun of Tom Cruise on Family Guy yet Tom Cruise was respectful and polite. It could be a charade like Will Smith all those years but it seems like Tom Cruise is a genuinely nice guy.
Disney continues to not understand a basic rule: do not insult your customers. It is totally fine for people to not like a film or films. It doesn't make them an instantly bad person and no amount of insults will change that.
As long as the state provides Disney with money, they will continue with the message. And how do I know that the Govt pays Disney?...Who was it that printed a lot of money back at 2020, with the aim of saving the Stock market...Aka bought shares in Disney...The Govt The same govt who still prints trillions of cash
The company that pays media outlets and reviewers not to insult them thinks that they can insult the fans and still get paid by them. That's the level of cognitive dissonance they're on over at Disney right now.
And the audience went from consumers passively absorbing their movies to people with their guard up. I definitely feel like I've undergone a transformation.
@@iang8169 They're good, and apparently your favorites, but since when are they generally regarded as the best? Anyway, Logan has a definite, undeniable character arc throughout the movies he's appeared in.. The last two Indy films have the flattest, non-existent character arc possible. If you can't see that, perhaps you should read up on what character arcs actually are.
As a longtime fan of Indiana Jones. As a 45 year old dude who grew up adoring the Indiana jones franchise, this doesn’t make me angry. It makes me sad. Just apathetic and sad. It’s not anger. Just emptyness. Just sad. What a waste of time and money. The last crusade hit all the right spots, and was a perfect place to end it. Literally riding off into the sunset. Ah well. Hollyweird will do what hollyweird does
You nailed it disparu. The hypocrisy of Mangold not acknowledging that Helena Shaw is a character who was written perfect with no flaws from the outset.
Well there was a Madam Helena Blavatski, whose replacement (head Theosophist) was actually in an episode of Young Indy. I had heard that Lucas himself was associated, and an even later incarnation named Hubbard funded the original Star Trek pilot, too. This group was started by British Intel in California around 1882, a cult, to change the world's 7 major religions into a common world religion, mainly based on Hinduism. It became the UN, essentially. And then there was George Bernard Shaw, who was a Fabian Socialist. I wanted a government to be able to snuff out anyone who isn't successful enough to appease a panel of judges. Do I think she was named after these people? Yes, I do.
Or his cliched “getting old bad” worldview. Seriously, not everyone hates getting old. What’s more they had a partial blueprint for old Indy in the form of Sean Connery in Last Crusade.
@@fionnaitsradag5152 That is an insult to stick insects, and I'm going to have ask them to cite reputable sources for claiming she is in 'human form.' 😂
Harrison Ford - "I have seen movies on a big screen but there was nobody else in the room." Are you sure he wasn't watching Indiana Jones 5? That sounds like the experience.
They never will. I'm convinced now. I used to think that there was NO chance that Disney could go bankrupt, but I've changed my mind and now think it's inevitable. Disney birches will scream that it's never going to happen, but between the FLOPS, D+ failing, competition In streaming, and then not being willing to set aside idiology for even a single movie, I truly think that they'll have to declare bankruptcy and be sold off. I mean, one of the big streaming services had to go eventually, it's bound to happen. I think that everyone thought it would be Netflix first, including me, but I don't think so anymore. Unless they just give up on Disney plus.
@@mmr0221 I stopped watching new releases of Disney last year (though old releases are fair game to me). Trust me, it hurts, since I always was a huge fan of Indiana Jones, I even appreciate Crystal Skull.
@@ralyman2 if you’re a longtime fan of Indy, Disney and the producers of the new movie hate you. They hate people like you then they wonder why they’re failing
@@MoonwalkerWorshiper Time will tell if they will take any notice. I think they'll just double down on kids content to try and indoctrinate that generation because its not working on the 'adults'.
Anyone can deconstruct, the real issue is the writer also has to Reconstruct. But how does one reconstruct if your main point is growing up sucks. May as well drop out of society once you're out of High School then.
@@strategicperson95 They all act high and mighty while hiding behind "deconstruction". Yet none of them ever reconstruct. Without reconstruction, it's just tearing things down. Tell us you hate the subject and it's fans, without telling us you hate the subject and it's fans.
Here's a funny thing. The obvious choice is Indy, Marion, Short Round and possibly re-cast Mutt are forced into one last adventure. That's what the audience wanted. If they'd done that, a lot of flaws would have been overlooked, and it probably would have made that billion they were looking for. They could have even made Helena a minor, less trash character and spun a TV show off the successful movie. But at Lucasfilm, rule #1 is "The audience never gets what they obviously want."
The amount of people that have posited possible plots with Short Round &/ or Mutt either saving Indy, or going on a final adventure with him- & they have been **_infinitely_** better than what the audience got; hell, Despot of Antrim's 30-second description of Short Round's reappearance in an alternate plot was a million times better than the travesty that got delivered...
@@OcarinaSapphr- I've seen several plot ideas with this premise and agree, they were all 100x better than the thin gruel they dished out. They could have even simply done a movie with younger Indy set in the 20s, recast, and been fine. But the three things we can count on in life are death, taxes, and Lucasfilm can have 100 better options right in front of them and will still make the worst possible choice.
Between 1991 when Heir To The Empire was released and 1999 when The Phantom Menace was released, Lucasfilm was practically its own mint and, with the exception of the Young Indy adventures, not one second of new footage was shot for the cinema. It’s Amazing how a deluge of crappy product can devalue something that was so easy to make money off of.
My thoughts on Harrison's "message to the fans" vs Tom's message. Tom has ALWAYS displayed passion about his roles. I know he's an actor and yet in that message before Top Gun, I "believed" him because of his past actions and real passion. As I mentioned in my previous message, Harrison has displayed a decided LACK of passion for his characters (most notably Han Solo and Indy) in interviews for decades. Tom has been nothing but passionate. I believe Tom when he says he is passionate. I believe Tom when he says he is grateful to the fans. I think he has shown, over decades of interviews and interactions, that he actually cares what his fans think of his work and his characters. I do not care one wit about his personal life. I care about his performance. He has continuously shown that he is passionate about his work and his characters. Therefore, his message before Top Gun, actually meant something. Harrison's message was pure PR, pure cope, and a desperate move to drum up business for his sucky, failing movie and for his sucky, failing studio. I wonder how much he got paid for filming that message because I'm CERTAIN he did NOT do it for free or out of any real passion or caring for his fans.
Tom's message before the movie was thanking the paying customers, that are there in theater seats. Ford's message was to get back the potential customers that were driven off, before/during/after the movie released. 🤦♂
It's legitimately mind boggling to hear these writers discussing the Jake Skywalkering trope as if it's new, cutting edge and subversive! I refuse to believe that they're actually that ignorant of the industry trend for the past seven years!!!
@@nont18411no matter who that replacement is. To this day, old Transformer fans will always talk about their dislike of Hasbro replacing Optimus after killing him off. How no one learned from that is head scratching.
I remember sitting in the theater on opening night of "Rsiders". We lost our collective minds when Jones shot the swordsman. Wouldn't be in the film today.
After college I moved to LA to be a writer, and I used to be sad about it but after all that has happened I am actually proud to have been so thoroughly rejected by the worst decision-makers on the planet.
The proverbial “waiter with a spec script in his back pocket” can no longer afford rent in L.A. The studios must be recruiting writers based on whether they have pronouns in their twitter bios and syringe and blue wave emojis next to their names.
Until about 10 years ago, when a movie didn't do well, the Director didn't blame the fans for it. I never thought about it before but I had the idea that the studio talked about why the movie did not do well, what the feedback from the public was, and what could they improve on to not make the same mistakes in their next movie. But blaming the fans is a lot more fun, and involves no self reflection whatsoever. 👏 Thanks for the video! 🙏😎🍿
Hell, even Joel Schumacher came out a few years after Batman & Robin to apologize to the audience for screwing up the character. And it wasn’t even entirely his fault, since he was a great filmmaker overall, who had his hand forced by the studio.
@@alexman378 that was quite courageous of him! I had no idea how badly studio interference can mess up a movie until I saw an interview with Peter Jackson explaining all of the things the studio wanted to see in the LOTR trilogy. Thank goodness, he was able to push through what he wanted nearly all the time.
Bro, legit, this is not a Last Jedi situation where half the audience will shill for Disney. This is a film that is disliked by 90% of people I see online.
The people at Disney have probably manipulated some data to make it look like a lot of people loved it. It's the only way that Kathleen Kennedy has kept her job. She's convinced the higher ups that people loved the film.
He isn’t a starving actor needing a check. I’ve watched him since the 70s. He has been an icon. I won’t hold this against him. Maybe he thought being there he could save it. Maybe the emphasis changed. It’s not like the studio doesn’t lie to the actors on the direction of movies.
He is an actor not a fan. I‘m ok with him doing a job and getting paid. That he isn’t a fan of his own character, well, a lot of actors don’t care about what they play. I also don’t dislike anybody else working on the movie that wasn’t involved in creative decisions and didn’t attack the fans. But I also wouldn’t watch the movie just for Harrison Ford and I will call it a bad movie, even if it is his last hurrah and the end of his career. A dud is a dud and yes, a sad old Indy wasn’t helping … if anything, the beginning proves that a pure cgi movie set in the 1930ies was the better idea.
Nobody is asking that Indy is infallible. They’re asking that you don’t make him depressed and useless, only to cure his melancholy with a punch to the face. There is no arc, he’s life was miserable because of circumstances and those circumstances were magicked away. There’s no overcoming personal failings, no revelation for his character, the writer just flicked a switch from sad to happy. The lengths these people will go to pretend that the movie wasn’t an uninspired mess cobbled together from scraps is ridiculous
That's the thing, Indy was never infallible, he was just a generally good person opposing legitimately evil people and trying to do the right thing by history and by the cultures he touched (the whole "That belongs in a museum!" line versus returning the three sacred artifacts to that one village, he knew when to bring something to the world and when to leave it where it was).
I am old man, recently retired so you get an idea of how old I really am and how simple I see things. I say that because I remember when movies were actually had good stories with real character arcs. I am not a writer I know next to nothing about writing stories. To me the best stories were about flawed men and some women who only wanted to do the right thing. Star Wars, the first 3 Indiana Jones movies. Movies from Carol Lombard in My Man Godfrey to John Wayne in his westerns ( yes, I am an old geezer) and a thousand in between. I know many will not be able to relate I just wonder what happen to originality, story telling and making movies for real people.
I don't remember "basement dwellers" losing a quarter billion dollars on a film, but I do remember the for several years "basement dwellers" warning, very vocally, that the film was heading down the wrong path. Guess who was roght?
Now even Spielberg is blaming “leaks” for the movie’s failure. What a pathetic excuse! If the leaks actually got the fans _excited,_ that would have driven people to the theatres!
Yes, a movie character’s arc has peaks and valleys. People tend to like it when you go from peak to valley to peak within the space of two hours. They tend not to like it when you start with a peak, and then wait 40 years to get to the valley, and stop there.
And as professional script writers responsible for a very expensive blockbuster movie, you'd think this be figured out and executed. Someone has a secret fetish for failing.
The original Indiana Jones wasn't infallible he was a normal guy with all the vulnerabilities of a normal guy but he had the ambition and courage to overcome great evil and solve problems he was confronted with. There were many times you feared for his life and he could have died just as easily as anybody else but he overcame it through inner greatness. There were plenty of times he was outmatched by bigger stronger opponents and found a way and to overcome. He was the "unlikely" hero and was a great role model of genuine masculinity. He was great.
And it’s worth noting that pop culture has furnished us with numerous examples of _female_ characters who overcame obstacles through inner greatness, without them being portrayed as instantly terrific at everything.
Feminism doesn't even want to protect wham, when it comes to a religious group that wants to alter Europe into their own countries. But on the other hand, this is something the female hive mind protects and votes for.
Yep. Grumpy old Luke, ancient Han Solo, turning Sarah Connor into a bitter old drunk, now Indy shuffling around like Joe Biden, and a useless Nick Fury...I can't believe they're still pretending that hero deconstruction is still somehow fresh and surprising and "subverting expectations".
I really hate how Hollywood is labeling genuine critiques as “trolls and haters” like it’s such an immature high schooler mentality to think “you don’t agree or love everything I say or do so you must be a dirty HATER” Grow tf up Hollywood jfc
it is that everything hollywood does now is political agenda pandering and if you question it you are a sexist, misogynist, racist, bigot that can only be trolling because nobody would ever dislike their woke trash movies. The media and hollywood are just leftist political agenda echo chambers now. They just echo the agenda of the day and insult and label anyone that tells them its trash.
I'm uninterested in Mangold's educational version of Indy's character arc. I'm not paying to go to a woke ivy league university, I'm paying for a theater ticket. Sheesh!
You gotta' love how this deconstruction that these directors claim to be so in love with only ever happens to legacy white male characters, so they can be replaced and upstaged by new instantly-amazing female characters. Oh yes. Making Indy a failure is totally making him a real human being. Meanwhile his 'costar' is amazing from the moment she's introduced and don't you dare try to deconstruct her because we can't have any of that.
I'm frankly surprised that they didn't make Indy into a tranny. That would have scored them some amazing woke-points - especially if they'd also made him black and morbidly obese.
These morons don't understand that the point of a deconstruction is the reconstruction on the other side; it's not enough to tear it down, you have to rebuild it afterwards. I'm reminded of _Madoka Magicka,_ which deconstructs magical girl anime... and ends with the pure-hearted girl saving the world with the magical power she alone possesses. But now every series has to think about questions like "What do the folks granting powers to the magical girls get out of it?" and "Are there unpleasant side effects from becoming a magical girl?" and "How do these young women deal with the stress of fighting monsters?" because the audience will be thinking about it, even if the protagonists don't.
@@fench1234567to be fair the Movie Star has died thanks to Social Media. There are NO new Stars that'll have the same pull as the last of the old guard after they're gone. Hollywood is going to have a real uphill struggle selling their films without big names like they did in the past.
@@boobah5643 They all act high and mighty while hiding behind "deconstruction". Yet none of them ever reconstruct. Without reconstruction, it's just tearing things down. Tell us you hate the subject and it's fans, without telling us you hate the subject and it's fans.
Nobody at Disney comes across as sincerely caring about their fans! By stark contrast: Tom Cruise may be completely Batshite-Out-of-His-Mind-Crazy! But- Tom Cruise sincerely cares about his fans!
When I'm showing an editing project to people for the first time, the thought running through my head line a freight train on repeat is usually "I hope I did a good enough job of telling my story to the audience", not "I hope the audience are intelligent enough to deserve to see my masterpiece"
"You know anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." ─ Knuckles the Echidna
Gender equality is a lie. Men are the core of every society. If all women in a tribe disappear, the men can just go to war and capture war brides and the tribe will survive. If the men disappear, there is no tribe. The women get absorbed into other tribes or die. The only thing men really _need_ women for is reproduction. Everything else can be done by men alone.
These people whoever they are, critics or moviemakers, are not interested in gender equality they want to express arrogance and patronize fellow human beings.
Gotta love Mangold showing how little he actually knows about writing by defining all of drama in a way that denies the existence of the flat character arc, despite the fact that it predates all other variants. What a disgrace.
The last name “Jones” should be a tip-off that the man-of-action is himself a bit of a cipher. As Red Letter Media once said (and apparently forgot,) people aren’t interesting in Indiana Jones, they’re interested in the _idea_ of Indiana Jones.
Turning a characters life into a train wreck off screen between movies is not an arc. If that's the story you want then make that story. The audiences connection to a character is throw the shared experience of the film
I do certainly watch movies to learn that "life is disappointing" and there's a lot of drawbacks to getting old. That's my favorite film experience for sure, and not just one I experience in my home on a daily basis as I feebly crawl towards middle age and my parents live through their 70s and most of the events on my calendar have become attending family funerals. I definitely don't want any sort of experience that doesn't resemble my own pathetic and boring life at home or anything. No, I want to go to the theater and pay twenty dollars to see it enacted on a screen as well.
Attacking the fans has been such a successful strategy for woke Hollywood, nothing like telling customers how terrible/stupid they are while expecting them to hand you their money. Stunning and brave, now lets check the 2nd weekend box office........ oh 😂
Golden shower has such a narrow, Americanized view of old age. Across most of the globe elders are respected and revered for their experiences and knowledge. I feel bad for his parents.
It is clear they believe that good box office results are their noble right and we peasants are incapable of just being thankful they provided us a table scrap.
I think- in typical Hollyweird fashion, they're so used to a shallow, pop-culture understanding of everything, that they forget reality & nuance... The Feudal System was, in fact, *not* just about the nobility, clergy, & warrior-class constantly taking from the commoners, & oppressing them- & nothing else - it was a social contract, of *_mutual benefit_* ; as they say- reciprocity, is the key to every relationship- you give, to get- & get, to give - *everyone* _has_ to play their part properly, for things to not implode: everybody owes, everybody pays - you don't provide for the 'people at the bottom'- why the hell should they give you jack, & certainly not their hard-earned money...?
It's been amusing watching Hollywood freak out over a movie you'd think they'd all get behind!!! (Sound of Freedom) but I guess it does call out a lot of big-wigs, so..
First, my intelligence was insulted by their terrible products, then, when I voice my concerns about this, I’m insulted again as “I just don’t get it”. I hope Disney gets this: my transactional relationship with you has now reached a permanent end, and there are many like me.
Doubt if anyone who agreed to watch a hero from a previous movie, who turns out to be unable to maintain human relatioships or keep a positive attitude in life would consider this to be an inspirational story for aging ...
10:00 I mean, I'm a cinema goer on occasion, but you are correct. I wish every seat came with its own pair of headphones so you could only hear the movie you are watching, not the popcorn and soda slurping or people talking. Now, granted, I do these things occasionally too, but I try to be quiet.
We all wanted a good movie like him and short round having to save mutt in the end indy looses an eye to shave short round and that leads to his retirement. Also seeing Simon peg complaining that star wars fans being toxic after making episodes on a show attacking lucas and fans of the prequels proves hes a hypocrite
If there were to be viable Indy sequels, then they needed to made when it was logical to do so. A few years after Last Crusade. These last two were nothing but pathetic, attempted cash grabs. I'm perfectly happy with the Original Trilogy & even happier to consider anything else NON CANON. Same goes for Star Wars.
Old Indy already has been portrayed by George Lucas during Young Indiana Jones chronicles. It’s already been established as canon that Indy lived happily with his granddaughter and grandson through at least 1993 in a nice New England suburb which was a bright and cheery residence. He routinely spent time lecturing as a Professor Emeritus with his university, local museums, and overseas conferences. During the show, he was a happy, well adjusted, elderly professional with a clear zest for life who enjoyed telling his many life stories to whomever was on hand to listen. This loser portrayed by Disney in the latest film was nothing like Old Indy created by Lucas. Plus, Old Indy had apparently lost his right eye in what appears to have been a sword fight (similar to Anakin’s eye injury Lucas created a decade later).
Typical gaslighting! No one minds heroes having struggles, but we mind malicious deconstruction and character assassinations of our favorite characters, in order to replace them with more self-insert KK clones! And if a studio does it over, and over, and over again, you can’t expect your choices to be judged in isolation!
They will never understand that it's often better to just simply turn off the lights on an empty stage. Jackie Gleason did one season of the Honeymooners when they could have done many more. He understood.
They certainly didn't, but if they'd actually respected the audience and the character, they could have constructed a story that might actually been palatable. I'd rather see a new good story personally though.
Because as long as people line up to gobble up the goy slop, they will keep serving it up. Fortunately, it seems that people are starting to get sick of it.
It is pretty obvious that Indiana Jones 5 was designed to replace Indiana Jones with someone else. Disney and Lucasfilm did not want to see the franchise end. So, what do we get? A zombie movie that opens up Indiana Jones to the Walking Dead. And who is the new zombie hero? Given Kennedy's and Mangold's inability to tell a story without ideology and identity politics, the replacement had to be a brunette and a feminist, a Kathleen-Kennedy insert, who is far better than the original character. After this, Mangold can't understand why the audience has rejected his movie? That is actually funny. Helena Shaw has no character arc, and Indiana Jones wants to die. Getting older is not necessarily disappointing. Mangold and Kennedy most certainly are. If a studio can't make a movie that the audience wants, the studio is to blame, not the paying customer. Disney and Lucasfilm can't seem to understand this.
Remember, there are only two options: perfect flawless characters who succeed at everything, and depressed losers who want to die. There are no alternatives.
Hey Disney I've got a great idea for a new Star Wars story. Rey as a crotchety old woman who lives in a stinky bedsit and necks a bottle of gin for breakfast every morning, played by Miriam Margolyes. Because, you know, character arc and stuff. Can I have my 20 million in bundles of 100s, please?
"The peasants, thank you for explaining what a character arc is. I am still training in how to use rudimentary tools" ❤ loved how you pin it and explain. Just shows that Hollywood thinks lesser of their clients
If the customers don’t want to buy your product it doesn’t matter how brilliant you think it is. Somebody asked a UA-camr (CGP Grey I believe) “How to be successful on UA-cam.” To which he replied “Make videos that people want to watch.”
This is where I feel old - because I still have some nostalgia for seeing films at the cinema. There was less eating and noise, and the volume of the film wasn't turned up so high your fillings rattled.When the entire audience would catch their breath, or jump in their seats, as one, the film was more memorable (when video rentals started it was strange how reseeing a film you'd seen on screen on a 28" TV at home made for a smaller and less astounding experience). But at the point where I had to plug my ears with tissue to watch Phantom Menace... well that was the last time I saw a film in the cinema. In Harrison Ford's memories of cinema people dressed nicely, mostly cleared up their own litter, and it was the only place you'd get the movie in widescreen and the soundtrack in stereo. Seeing it in the cinema could make even a mediocre film into a night out. Heck, I was in the ABC Minors and that was a saturday spent with 'friends' you'd made according to who was in the seats near you, watching PeterCushing's Dr Who films and with virtually no adult supervision. Above a certain age movie-going was an entirely different experience - I'm old enough to understand what Harrison Ford is saying, but young enough to know that experience can't be discovered or recaptured nowadays.
@@blindlobster I went to the premier of Star Wars (NOT Episode IV: A New Hope, just plain Star Wars) in 1977, & attended the premiers of Empire & Jedi. Then when a Darth Vader origin movie was announced, I was pretty stoked. When I went to see Phantom Menace, five things several things struck me that eye-rollingly ruined the lore of the Original Trilogy: 1. Darth Vader being referred to as Annie 2. The Midichlorians 3. Killing off one of the best bad guys in SW history, Darth Maul 4. Killing off Qui Gon Jinn 5. Jar Jar Binks I could go on. To me, the prequel trilogy is a travesty & a painful reminder of what could & should have been. I wasn't a kid when the prequels came out so my perspective is different. I just remember steaming when I left the theater 😁 OMG & then the next two 🙄 The last 10 minutes of Sith were cute, I have to admit. And then this sequel crap & the terrible TV shows. Yea, no lol. Baby Yoda. Wow. Great idea. A Yoda origin story. How could they possibly fuck this up? Oh . . . It's not Yoda 😑 OT All The Way!!
@@proto-geek248 Granted the prequels were not constantly good. George was too focused on the final film (episode 3) to realise the problems in the earlier two episodes. For example, three of the problems mentioned happened for benefit of episode three (1, 2 & 4). Although I don't see the problem with Darth Maul, should Lucas have made him run away? I never saw the appeal myself. Yes, Maul was a great athlete but he barely spoke. With Jar Jar Binks, at least Lucas understood he made a mistake and tried to lessen the problem. The writers of today would have doubled down and "forced" us to like him. With Star Wars, I found the "corrections" of the OT to be more offensive than the prequel trilogy. Although I will admit that of the three prequel films, only episode 3 wasn't bad.
Character arcs like Han Solo who starts out as a smuggler and grows into fitting into a family group fighting for something greater than himself just to dump him into the Force Awakens after failing as a father and husband being a smuggler yet again... Such a character arc...
Yeah, that was the big problem with the original Indiana Jones movies. He didn't have any problems to deal with. Thanks for fixing the Indiana Jones movies, James Mangold !!!
While I can definitely appreciate Harrison Ford as an actor, and he's played the part of some of my favorite characters in Cinema, namely Han Solo and Indiana Jones, honestly I don't think I'd ever be able to say that I'd like Harrison as a person. Even when he was young he came across as a crotchety and rather abrasive person, the kind of actor who plays the role, but the moment a fan meets him and gushes a bit he'd just tell them to f**k off. Maybe he just doesn't have the personality type to be able to handle public spotlight (I can certainly sympathize), but I do think that it does somewhat harm people's enjoyment of his movies at least to a small degree when they realize that Ford himself really didn't give a damn about many of his most beloved and iconic roles. And honestly his Thank You video for Indiana 5 just looked like him being in front of a camera and saying that stuff while people off camera aimed guns at him. He's never really felt like he gives too much of a s**t. In some ways that's kind of admirable, but in other ways it's very off putting. Even when he was playing Han or Indy back in the 70's and 80's, he really came across in a lot of interviews as just not giving much of a f**k and just being there for the paycheck. Sure, at the end of the day that's what most anybody does, but he was pretty brazen with not caring. Compare this to someone like Tom Cruise. Say what you want about Tom during his crazy years as a Scientologist (not sure if he ever broke out of that cult or not), but it's pretty apparent that while he certainly does what he does for money, he also ENJOYS it and legitimately enjoys pleasing the fans. That kind of energy, passion, and love for the art does tend to shine through, and even some of Cruise's less successful films were typically unsuccessful in spite of him rather than because of him.
The problem is Indiana Jones fans didnt want or ask for a new Indiana movie. Disney insisted one be made, and when we didnt like the garbage they put out, they call us toxic fans, and misoginists. But guess what Disney, i loved the first three movies, and as i recall they all had female characters. So we are not misoginists for liking those movies but we are for not liking this one?
Do I need to say any more? I called this weeks ago and it's time to finally just cast Harrison 'I hate everything I ever did' Ford away, he is a bitter cynical old man who should've remained a Janitor
Weird how the movies are called "Indiana Jones" yet the director tries to defend why the movie is no longer about the main character.... If it's no longer about Indiana Jones, then just frigging end the series instead of milking it for all its worth. Better yet, make a new series and call it something else in the same universe but just leave Indiana jones out of it.
"In this movie we have a poorly edited and hard to follow plot, an unlikable man hating Mary Sue as the lead character, and we punch Indiana Jones in the face. You're welcome. Give us money!" - James Manchild
Ford has made a bunch of great movies in his career. But his attitude towards fans has always been somewhere between indifference and distain. You know it was hard for him to pretend to have gratitude.
My brother met Peter Mayhew...ya know Chewie. I guess All he did was bash Ford the whole time he spoke with him besides going outside for a fag. Supposeably he's one arrogant bastard. Come to think of it he does kinda come off that way in interviews😂
@@m780dff it wasn’t a complaint, it was an observation. I don’t go to conventions or buy merchandise or seek autographs myself so I’m not goin to pretend to know what his fan interaction are like. I’ll leave that to douchebags like yourself. But Let me try to explain so that you can understands my post. it doesn’t matter if he loves or hates the “fans” my point was about the dichotomy of then vs now. It comes off as disingenuous. If you still don’t understand, consider this. The ford video is compared with the cruise video after top gun 2. But where cruise’s was made after his movie was already a huge success, fords is made after a sluggish opening. It seems like desperation.
I hate watching movies with a ton of people I don't know, laughing at things that aren't funny, talking during quiet scenes etc. When I reaaaly want to watch a movie at the theater I wait a couple of weeks for the hype to die down and go to the latest session possible.
If you've ever seen Bubba Hotep you might agree with me that it points the way to a decent Indy 5 flick. Indy old, discounted, no longer taken seriously and then, something amazing and sinister happens.
Why does he think fans want infallible legacy characters? Infallibility was never the issue, particularly in Indy's case. Much of Indy's charm was his winsome determination through difficulties, of which many were caused by his own failures and unlucky circumstances. "I don't know; I'm making this up as I go," is one of his most characteristic lines. Moreover, it's not as though these characters can't change or develop new layers: those things merely have to make sense with the character, and they probably shouldn't turn the character into someone antithetical to the central motivation and appeal which he had in the first place. I haven't seen the film, but Deadbeat Jones seems to be neither a pulp adventure hero, nor someone who used to be.
We are not looking for a deconstruction of another iconic character. We are looking for 2 hours of freedom from our own problems. And, to be entertained.
See, this is what is wrong with the world, as the world was a lot better when people thought that "the customer " is always right, now they just blame the customer, because they don't have a clue of what the customer actually wants🤦♂️🤯 It is arse about!😒
Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny isn't a topic I had planned to talk about again, but the Director James Mangold put an end to that. Coming out and calling people divisive, implying they're making up their opinions just to lie about how they felt about the movie is the height of arrogance. Genuinely thinking everyone loves the movie, they're just lying to you about it, or too thick to understand a character arc. It can't be your writing that's the problem!
And as for Harrison Fords fan appreciation video 2 weeks after it's already failed as a last ditch hope...how transparent can you be? But what did you think? Let me know your thoughts down below and as always, thanks for watching :)
I like how he described a character arc and all the character in the film had no arc it was a character cannon
no heroes allowed anymore
Dude. I love your videos and I think your point of view is fantastic 👏 👌 😀. Keep up the great work. Respect from Florida ❤
"If anything, my movie is too perfect." - smug failure of a filmmaker
It's like when you ask for a GI Joe for Christmas and your grandma goes to the local drug store and buys you a Military Action Hero figurine.
Fans: "I just want to see Indiana Jones be the star of the Indiana Jones film."
Hollywood: "How does it feel to be a raging misogynist?"
What about the crystal skull?
@@thahirshibu5042e movie to many already. People have to let things go. The trilogy was perfect. No need to risk ruining it.
Hollywood: "How does it feel to be a raging misogynist?"
Me: "It feels so much better than I thought it would."
@@thahirshibu5042 Still better than the Dumpster of Destiny
Fans: you wrote this side character to be an irritating Mary Sue, why couldn’t she be more like Marion-
Hollywood: oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you *hated women so much you seXIST PIECE OF SH-*
"The movie makers berated me so now I'm going to see their movie," said no one ever.
we're all gonna shuffle to the theater with our heads down in shame . . .
And no matter WHAT they say, or call us, they're the incompetent braindeads that somehow couldn't turn a profit on one of the most valuable IPs in cinema. Nothing will stop them from going down in history as unmitigated and abject FAILURES. 😂
Have you lost your reptilian-ass mind?
"...life is disappointing" doesn't need to be explained to me in a movie, I've LIVED it for myself when I lost my first born son unexpectedly when he was just in his thirties. I go to the movies to escape reality, not be hit over the head with it. Mangold's gotten too big for his britches and forgotten that his job is to entertain, not educate.
I can relate my brother I lost my only son when he was just 31 My life would never be the same
@@mcmotohistory8770 , I'm so sorry. 💔💔💔
I can be inspired or moved by a good drama, but I'm mostly in it for the fun. That, and the movie making process.
Some crushing stories. I can't really do or say anything other pray for you both😢.
Sorry for your loss Maam
As an Archaeologist, who studied Archaeology because of Indiana Jones, I just want to cry :(
I’ve seen several online reviewers close to tears over this debacle. It’s obvious that for men of a certain age, the character of Indiana Jones is tightly bound up with their relationships with their own fathers, so this particular character debasement cuts a little deeper.
I stopped watching and counting anything Disney releases as cannon after Starwars was utterly destroyed. It's been great because i dont get upset at anything they do and just laugh at their failure. There are 3 Indiana Jones movies so I simply dont care what these loonies do?
Do yourself a favor and watch reviews of everything coming out to make sure the movie industry isn't trying to hurt, manipulate, or scam you with their movie. I had to quit going into theaters blind long ago for the sake of budget and sanity.
@@fench1234567
I've treated going to the movies now as an investment- not an indulgence, as I used to (I watched Zorro 2, _twice_ & The Fountain, in cinemas back in the day)- I'm no longer giving movies the benefit of the doubt, investing time & money into something I won't get a return on (entertainment, in the case of the John Wick series & Maverick- time shared with family, in the case of the John Farnham biopic- &/ or something genuinely thought-provoking, though certainly difficult to watch, in the case of 'Sound of Freedom')
@@cameronjones8641 The opposite of love is not hate. It's apathy/indifference.
In the past 11 years, Disney/Lucasfilm has taught us not to care.
It’s almost quite embarrassing how many times the media plays cover for terrible pieces of media and blames it on fans.
it's in the pamphlet.
Almost!? Its a fucking joke and has been for over a decade.
*CIA:* _"Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations."_
*BART SIMPSON:* _"I didn't do it. Nobody saw me. You can't prove anything."_
Don't forget, still wanted for murder by the end......main plot point just never resolved.......🤦
@@scottbattaglia8595 what do want, everything?
The thing about Top Gun 2’s message is that Cruise’s actions in regards to how he handled that film, reflect his words to us. He really did try his hardest to give us something we haven’t seen before, all the while re-introducing an older character to a new audience and making them fall in love with him all over again.
Cruise isn’t about just keeping it real when it comes to stunts and spectacle, he also did the same when it came to how his messages were projected. You don’t feel condescension, there is no preaching, and the beloved legacy character isn’t humiliated to prop up annoying, pathetic side characters.
Sadly, TG2 shows how badly the standards have been lowered. Not that it wasn’t still an enjoyable film overall, but they took more from old Star Wars than the latest New Star Wars movies did.
Pretty wild how the fawkin scientology demigod is far less preachy than, well, the rest of Hollywood
I do enjoy watching his interviews. Cruise always seems so nice and respectful on The Graham Norton Show. He was there with Seth MacFarlane who has made fun of Tom Cruise on Family Guy yet Tom Cruise was respectful and polite. It could be a charade like Will Smith all those years but it seems like Tom Cruise is a genuinely nice guy.
@@Avalon_1991 People connected to Scientology have said Cruise's behaviour is very much a façade he wears to draw people in.
@@AcanthaDante As long as he entertains me, I don't care what "facade" he is using. He's an actor, not a moral or spiritual leader.
Disney: "This film was made for fan service."
Also Disney: "WE hate the fans. The fans suck!"
lol
exactly
Fans are extremely toxic. Just like you tossers!
Blaming the audience who doesn't like your movie is like telling the teacher they don't know how to grade your homework. 🙄
👍
A+
I identify as a straight A student. Affirm my identity, Mr. Prof.
Disney continues to not understand a basic rule: do not insult your customers. It is totally fine for people to not like a film or films. It doesn't make them an instantly bad person and no amount of insults will change that.
the basic rule is women are trash and not even women wnt to watch them.
The real rule is 'Do not insult your customers directly and with the worst insults possible, especially when you're the biggest hypocrites on earth'
they understand it. they don't care.
You are terrible.
"How dare you!"
- Greta
As long as the state provides Disney with money, they will continue with the message.
And how do I know that the Govt pays Disney?...Who was it that printed a lot of money back at 2020, with the aim of saving the Stock market...Aka bought shares in Disney...The Govt
The same govt who still prints trillions of cash
Must be nice to have a job where you regularly lose hundreds of millions of dollars, call your customers scum and not get fired.
disparu gotta brush his teeth or i cant watch his videos anymore. his teeth are almost black
It's been amusing watching a 5th generation horror film beat a Indiana Jones movie.
with a 16m budget that it made back in a day...
And a movie that Disney didn’t even want to release
All my homies beat Indiana Jones
What film?
Sorry, havent watched the video till the end before commenting 🤦🏻♀️ thanks. 👍🏻
The company that pays media outlets and reviewers not to insult them thinks that they can insult the fans and still get paid by them. That's the level of cognitive dissonance they're on over at Disney right now.
Bullies trying to fleece us out of our milk money vibes.
This is perhaps the best observation I've ever read in ... a very, very long time! Wow.
Indy went from an old man passively waiting to die to an old man actively wanting to die. This is definitely a character arc.
And the audience went from consumers passively absorbing their movies to people with their guard up. I definitely feel like I've undergone a transformation.
Apparently we're at the fizzling end of this pathetic, downward "arc" 🙄
It's a metaphor for Harrison who apparently wants to suffocate in-between bags of money.
Logan is regarded as basically tied with winter soldier as rhe best marvel movie . How is Logans character arc different from indy s in the w movies?
@@iang8169 They're good, and apparently your favorites, but since when are they generally regarded as the best? Anyway, Logan has a definite, undeniable character arc throughout the movies he's appeared in.. The last two Indy films have the flattest, non-existent character arc possible. If you can't see that, perhaps you should read up on what character arcs actually are.
As a longtime fan of Indiana Jones. As a 45 year old dude who grew up adoring the Indiana jones franchise, this doesn’t make me angry. It makes me sad. Just apathetic and sad. It’s not anger. Just emptyness.
Just sad. What a waste of time and money. The last crusade hit all the right spots, and was a perfect place to end it. Literally riding off into the sunset.
Ah well. Hollyweird will do what hollyweird does
You nailed it disparu. The hypocrisy of Mangold not acknowledging that Helena Shaw is a character who was written perfect with no flaws from the outset.
Someone who punches old men in the face is not "perfect". They are "criminal elder abusers".
aside from the homicidal intention streak that flares up from time to time lol
Well there was a Madam Helena Blavatski, whose replacement (head Theosophist) was actually in an episode of Young Indy. I had heard that Lucas himself was associated, and an even later incarnation named Hubbard funded the original Star Trek pilot, too. This group was started by British Intel in California around 1882, a cult, to change the world's 7 major religions into a common world religion, mainly based on Hinduism. It became the UN, essentially. And then there was George Bernard Shaw, who was a Fabian Socialist. I wanted a government to be able to snuff out anyone who isn't successful enough to appease a panel of judges. Do I think she was named after these people? Yes, I do.
*He wanted.
Or his cliched “getting old bad” worldview. Seriously, not everyone hates getting old. What’s more they had a partial blueprint for old Indy in the form of Sean Connery in Last Crusade.
This all started when they started hiring the Rainbow Mafia and it won't end until they get rid of the Rainbow Mafia.
No director could turn Phoebe Waller Bridge into a likeable action hero. Or a femme fatale. Or a mainstream comedian. Or...
The Despot of Antrim calls her "a stick insect in human form." :D
She reminds me of a real-life version of Sally Kellerman from Seinfeld. The “It girl” who never was.
@@freewater1🤣🤣🤣 Brilliant!
Or, basically anything BUT an insufferable British tw*t that brings literally nothing to the screen anyone actually wants to see... 🤦
@@fionnaitsradag5152 That is an insult to stick insects, and I'm going to have ask them to cite reputable sources for claiming she is in 'human form.' 😂
Harrison Ford - "I have seen movies on a big screen but there was nobody else in the room."
Are you sure he wasn't watching Indiana Jones 5? That sounds like the experience.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I refuse to watch anything Disney makes until they stop shoving ideology in our face and tearing down our beloved legacy characters.
And stop grooming kids
So you will never watch anything Disney again?
They never will. I'm convinced now. I used to think that there was NO chance that Disney could go bankrupt, but I've changed my mind and now think it's inevitable. Disney birches will scream that it's never going to happen, but between the FLOPS, D+ failing, competition In streaming, and then not being willing to set aside idiology for even a single movie, I truly think that they'll have to declare bankruptcy and be sold off. I mean, one of the big streaming services had to go eventually, it's bound to happen. I think that everyone thought it would be Netflix first, including me, but I don't think so anymore.
Unless they just give up on Disney plus.
@@mmr0221 I stopped watching new releases of Disney last year (though old releases are fair game to me). Trust me, it hurts, since I always was a huge fan of Indiana Jones, I even appreciate Crystal Skull.
@@ralyman2 if you’re a longtime fan of Indy, Disney and the producers of the new movie hate you. They hate people like you then they wonder why they’re failing
Why is it sooooooooo hard to just simply give fans what they want.
Because they are the gatekeepers now and they know better than you!
@@DJWHITE_ Box office records tells another story though.
You would think that Ghostbusters Afterlife compared to Ghostbusters 2016 would have shown them.
@@MoonwalkerWorshiper Time will tell if they will take any notice. I think they'll just double down on kids content to try and indoctrinate that generation because its not working on the 'adults'.
They dont care what fans want. They have agendas to sell.
I love how these directors try to justify destroying a well loved character in a movie fans never wanted.
Anyone can deconstruct, the real issue is the writer also has to Reconstruct.
But how does one reconstruct if your main point is growing up sucks.
May as well drop out of society once you're out of High School then.
@@strategicperson95 They all act high and mighty while hiding behind "deconstruction". Yet none of them ever reconstruct. Without reconstruction, it's just tearing things down.
Tell us you hate the subject and it's fans, without telling us you hate the subject and it's fans.
Here's a funny thing. The obvious choice is Indy, Marion, Short Round and possibly re-cast Mutt are forced into one last adventure. That's what the audience wanted.
If they'd done that, a lot of flaws would have been overlooked, and it probably would have made that billion they were looking for. They could have even made Helena a minor, less trash character and spun a TV show off the successful movie.
But at Lucasfilm, rule #1 is "The audience never gets what they obviously want."
The amount of people that have posited possible plots with Short Round &/ or Mutt either saving Indy, or going on a final adventure with him- & they have been **_infinitely_** better than what the audience got; hell, Despot of Antrim's 30-second description of Short Round's reappearance in an alternate plot was a million times better than the travesty that got delivered...
@@OcarinaSapphr- I've seen several plot ideas with this premise and agree, they were all 100x better than the thin gruel they dished out.
They could have even simply done a movie with younger Indy set in the 20s, recast, and been fine.
But the three things we can count on in life are death, taxes, and Lucasfilm can have 100 better options right in front of them and will still make the worst possible choice.
Disney's ability to drive some of the popular and lucrative IPs into the ground is impressive in a way.
"I am become Disney, destroyer of franchises"...
It's like the plot to the Producers, although I don't know who it's going to benefit in the end
@@ReformedSauron😂
It's not impressive in any way.
Really.
Between 1991 when Heir To The Empire was released and 1999 when The Phantom Menace was released, Lucasfilm was practically its own mint and, with the exception of the Young Indy adventures, not one second of new footage was shot for the cinema. It’s Amazing how a deluge of crappy product can devalue something that was so easy to make money off of.
My thoughts on Harrison's "message to the fans" vs Tom's message. Tom has ALWAYS displayed passion about his roles. I know he's an actor and yet in that message before Top Gun, I "believed" him because of his past actions and real passion. As I mentioned in my previous message, Harrison has displayed a decided LACK of passion for his characters (most notably Han Solo and Indy) in interviews for decades. Tom has been nothing but passionate.
I believe Tom when he says he is passionate. I believe Tom when he says he is grateful to the fans. I think he has shown, over decades of interviews and interactions, that he actually cares what his fans think of his work and his characters. I do not care one wit about his personal life. I care about his performance. He has continuously shown that he is passionate about his work and his characters. Therefore, his message before Top Gun, actually meant something.
Harrison's message was pure PR, pure cope, and a desperate move to drum up business for his sucky, failing movie and for his sucky, failing studio. I wonder how much he got paid for filming that message because I'm CERTAIN he did NOT do it for free or out of any real passion or caring for his fans.
Tom's message before the movie was thanking the paying customers, that are there in theater seats.
Ford's message was to get back the potential customers that were driven off, before/during/after the movie released. 🤦♂
It's legitimately mind boggling to hear these writers discussing the Jake Skywalkering trope as if it's new, cutting edge and subversive! I refuse to believe that they're actually that ignorant of the industry trend for the past seven years!!!
They still think that dynamic female characters in action movies or female protagonists are a completely new thing.
These people might find it surprising that the audience hate seeing their heroes being abused constantly to prop up the replacement characters.
@@nont18411no matter who that replacement is.
To this day, old Transformer fans will always talk about their dislike of Hasbro replacing Optimus after killing him off.
How no one learned from that is head scratching.
I remember sitting in the theater on opening night of "Rsiders". We lost our collective minds when Jones shot the swordsman. Wouldn't be in the film today.
After college I moved to LA to be a writer, and I used to be sad about it but after all that has happened I am actually proud to have been so thoroughly rejected by the worst decision-makers on the planet.
Today Chris Gore described Hollywood as a town full of cowards.
The proverbial “waiter with a spec script in his back pocket” can no longer afford rent in L.A. The studios must be recruiting writers based on whether they have pronouns in their twitter bios and syringe and blue wave emojis next to their names.
@@DeflatingAtheism I'm pretty sure they're hiring based on performance...but not the kind the rest of us think of.
People need to forget about Hollywood and make their own independent films. Hollywood doesn’t have a monopoly on filmmaking.
Well you write a good UA-cam comment.
Until about 10 years ago, when a movie didn't do well, the Director didn't blame the fans for it. I never thought about it before but I had the idea that the studio talked about why the movie did not do well, what the feedback from the public was, and what could they improve on to not make the same mistakes in their next movie.
But blaming the fans is a lot more fun, and involves no self reflection whatsoever. 👏
Thanks for the video! 🙏😎🍿
Hell, even Joel Schumacher came out a few years after Batman & Robin to apologize to the audience for screwing up the character. And it wasn’t even entirely his fault, since he was a great filmmaker overall, who had his hand forced by the studio.
@@alexman378 that was quite courageous of him! I had no idea how badly studio interference can mess up a movie until I saw an interview with Peter Jackson explaining all of the things the studio wanted to see in the LOTR trilogy. Thank goodness, he was able to push through what he wanted nearly all the time.
Only hollywood could look at the fan consensus that the movie was awful and say it was divisive. 🤣
Good point!
Theyre trying to speak things into existence. Its just like when the pedo advocates in the media call an anti-pedo movie "controversial".
Bro, legit, this is not a Last Jedi situation where half the audience will shill for Disney. This is a film that is disliked by 90% of people I see online.
The people at Disney have probably manipulated some data to make it look like a lot of people loved it. It's the only way that Kathleen Kennedy has kept her job. She's convinced the higher ups that people loved the film.
I'll say it again, "Screw Harrison Ford", he read the script and still took the check.
He isn’t a starving actor needing a check. I’ve watched him since the 70s. He has been an icon. I won’t hold this against him. Maybe he thought being there he could save it. Maybe the emphasis changed. It’s not like the studio doesn’t lie to the actors on the direction of movies.
He is an actor not a fan. I‘m ok with him doing a job and getting paid. That he isn’t a fan of his own character, well, a lot of actors don’t care about what they play. I also don’t dislike anybody else working on the movie that wasn’t involved in creative decisions and didn’t attack the fans. But I also wouldn’t watch the movie just for Harrison Ford and I will call it a bad movie, even if it is his last hurrah and the end of his career. A dud is a dud and yes, a sad old Indy wasn’t helping … if anything, the beginning proves that a pure cgi movie set in the 1930ies was the better idea.
Nobody is asking that Indy is infallible. They’re asking that you don’t make him depressed and useless, only to cure his melancholy with a punch to the face. There is no arc, he’s life was miserable because of circumstances and those circumstances were magicked away. There’s no overcoming personal failings, no revelation for his character, the writer just flicked a switch from sad to happy. The lengths these people will go to pretend that the movie wasn’t an uninspired mess cobbled together from scraps is ridiculous
That's the thing, Indy was never infallible, he was just a generally good person opposing legitimately evil people and trying to do the right thing by history and by the cultures he touched (the whole "That belongs in a museum!" line versus returning the three sacred artifacts to that one village, he knew when to bring something to the world and when to leave it where it was).
And nobody will have fun watching a depressed guy going through an adventure. You're good for criticizing the incompetent excuse of an arch.
I am old man, recently retired so you get an idea of how old I really am and how simple I see things. I say that because I remember when movies were actually had good stories with real character arcs. I am not a writer I know next to nothing about writing stories. To me the best stories were about flawed men and some women who only wanted to do the right thing. Star Wars, the first 3 Indiana Jones movies. Movies from Carol Lombard in My Man Godfrey to John Wayne in his westerns ( yes, I am an old geezer) and a thousand in between. I know many will not be able to relate I just wonder what happen to originality, story telling and making movies for real people.
They're still there. Granted, they're being overshadowed by a bunch of crap, but great movies, and (especially) great shows, are still being produced.
I don't remember "basement dwellers" losing a quarter billion dollars on a film, but I do remember the for several years "basement dwellers" warning, very vocally, that the film was heading down the wrong path. Guess who was roght?
Now even Spielberg is blaming “leaks” for the movie’s failure. What a pathetic excuse! If the leaks actually got the fans _excited,_ that would have driven people to the theatres!
Yes, a movie character’s arc has peaks and valleys. People tend to like it when you go from peak to valley to peak within the space of two hours. They tend not to like it when you start with a peak, and then wait 40 years to get to the valley, and stop there.
And as professional script writers responsible for a very expensive blockbuster movie, you'd think this be figured out and executed.
Someone has a secret fetish for failing.
The original Indiana Jones wasn't infallible he was a normal guy with all the vulnerabilities of a normal guy but he had the ambition and courage to overcome great evil and solve problems he was confronted with. There were many times you feared for his life and he could have died just as easily as anybody else but he overcame it through inner greatness. There were plenty of times he was outmatched by bigger stronger opponents and found a way and to overcome. He was the "unlikely" hero and was a great role model of genuine masculinity. He was great.
Was.
And it’s worth noting that pop culture has furnished us with numerous examples of _female_ characters who overcame obstacles through inner greatness, without them being portrayed as instantly terrific at everything.
@@DeflatingAtheism true
@@DeflatingAtheismRipley.
Indy goes from a sad old broken man in his run-down apartment,
to a sad old broken man in his run-down apartment
Wow - What a character arc!!
That's pretty flat for an arc 🙄
Feminism won't even try to protect women by saving women's sports. It is ridiculous to think it could save anything else.
Feminism: man-hating that secretly also hates women.
Feminism always has been a terroristic anti-human ideology about demonic screeching harpies and backstabbing witches.
Feminism doesn't even want to protect wham, when it comes to a religious group that wants to alter Europe into their own countries.
But on the other hand, this is something the female hive mind protects and votes for.
Feminists don't even know
what feminism is.
They're hopelessly confused.
5 shadow banned comments
Why not have Indy happily retiring and pursuing one last obsession? Like his father. His father was old but fun.
Since when do 80 year olds go through massive character growth? We don't want him to be static, we just want him to be Indy.
Well, Biden did.
@@huu7hbbjkoBiden went through character regression, he barely has a personality anymore
I want him to be retired.
@@proto-geek248 he is retarded.
Well, good news, the movie is set in 1969, so Indy should only be 70, so he's got time to still change by 80...
I mean Sean Connery was old in Last Crusade and he wasn't a sad sack. they didn't HAVE to do this
The deconstruction of an iconic hero, you say?
That's certainly never been done before...
Yep. Grumpy old Luke, ancient Han Solo, turning Sarah Connor into a bitter old drunk, now Indy shuffling around like Joe Biden, and a useless Nick Fury...I can't believe they're still pretending that hero deconstruction is still somehow fresh and surprising and "subverting expectations".
Master Cheeks
SkyFAIL, anyone? 😢
"If you don't like the ashes, we can replace them with Phoebe Waller Bridge."
*Um... I'll take the ashes, thank you very much.*
I really hate how Hollywood is labeling genuine critiques as “trolls and haters” like it’s such an immature high schooler mentality to think “you don’t agree or love everything I say or do so you must be a dirty HATER”
Grow tf up Hollywood jfc
it is that everything hollywood does now is political agenda pandering and if you question it you are a sexist, misogynist, racist, bigot that can only be trolling because nobody would ever dislike their woke trash movies. The media and hollywood are just leftist political agenda echo chambers now. They just echo the agenda of the day and insult and label anyone that tells them its trash.
Junior high schooler
I'm uninterested in Mangold's educational version of Indy's character arc. I'm not paying to go to a woke ivy league university, I'm paying for a theater ticket. Sheesh!
You gotta' love how this deconstruction that these directors claim to be so in love with only ever happens to legacy white male characters, so they can be replaced and upstaged by new instantly-amazing female characters. Oh yes. Making Indy a failure is totally making him a real human being. Meanwhile his 'costar' is amazing from the moment she's introduced and don't you dare try to deconstruct her because we can't have any of that.
I'm frankly surprised that they didn't make Indy into a tranny. That would have scored them some amazing woke-points - especially if they'd also made him black and morbidly obese.
These morons don't understand that the point of a deconstruction is the reconstruction on the other side; it's not enough to tear it down, you have to rebuild it afterwards. I'm reminded of _Madoka Magicka,_ which deconstructs magical girl anime... and ends with the pure-hearted girl saving the world with the magical power she alone possesses.
But now every series has to think about questions like "What do the folks granting powers to the magical girls get out of it?" and "Are there unpleasant side effects from becoming a magical girl?" and "How do these young women deal with the stress of fighting monsters?" because the audience will be thinking about it, even if the protagonists don't.
Calling that person a co-star assumes that people view them as a star to begin with. I don't.
@@fench1234567to be fair the Movie Star has died thanks to Social Media. There are NO new Stars that'll have the same pull as the last of the old guard after they're gone.
Hollywood is going to have a real uphill struggle selling their films without big names like they did in the past.
@@boobah5643 They all act high and mighty while hiding behind "deconstruction". Yet none of them ever reconstruct. Without reconstruction, it's just tearing things down.
Tell us you hate the subject and it's fans, without telling us you hate the subject and it's fans.
Nobody at Disney comes across as sincerely caring about their fans!
By stark contrast:
Tom Cruise may be completely Batshite-Out-of-His-Mind-Crazy!
But-
Tom Cruise sincerely cares about his fans!
That's it, attacked the customers the ones that are paying for your product....
That always works..
Here we go again. Attack the fans. They never learn.
This is what gets me. If the fans are so "Toxic" and "Divisive," who the devil are you making the movie for!?!
@@jetgoldranger You answered it yourself. The devil. They sacrifice fictional characters on a satanic altar.
When I'm showing an editing project to people for the first time, the thought running through my head line a freight train on repeat is usually "I hope I did a good enough job of telling my story to the audience", not "I hope the audience are intelligent enough to deserve to see my masterpiece"
"You know anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo."
─ Knuckles the Echidna
"HOW DARE YOU!"
-Greta
Gender equality is a lie. Men are the core of every society. If all women in a tribe disappear, the men can just go to war and capture war brides and the tribe will survive. If the men disappear, there is no tribe. The women get absorbed into other tribes or die. The only thing men really _need_ women for is reproduction. Everything else can be done by men alone.
These people whoever they are, critics or moviemakers, are not interested in gender equality they want to express arrogance and patronize fellow human beings.
I'm proud to say i watched Indiana Jones with my family.
1, 2 , and 3. That is all.
Gotta love Mangold showing how little he actually knows about writing by defining all of drama in a way that denies the existence of the flat character arc, despite the fact that it predates all other variants. What a disgrace.
I don't think a flat arc is possible 🤔
The last name “Jones” should be a tip-off that the man-of-action is himself a bit of a cipher. As Red Letter Media once said (and apparently forgot,) people aren’t interesting in Indiana Jones, they’re interested in the _idea_ of Indiana Jones.
@@proto-geek248
I remember saying the same thing when I first learned of it lol.
@@DeflatingAtheism Which means Dial of Destiny is not actually Indiana Jones. It's a scam.
By definition, an arc cannot be flat
"Whatever you think of horror movies" Excuse me young man, horror has been keeping the cinema doors open for eons. Thank you veeeery much!
Turning a characters life into a train wreck off screen between movies is not an arc. If that's the story you want then make that story. The audiences connection to a character is throw the shared experience of the film
I do certainly watch movies to learn that "life is disappointing" and there's a lot of drawbacks to getting old. That's my favorite film experience for sure, and not just one I experience in my home on a daily basis as I feebly crawl towards middle age and my parents live through their 70s and most of the events on my calendar have become attending family funerals. I definitely don't want any sort of experience that doesn't resemble my own pathetic and boring life at home or anything. No, I want to go to the theater and pay twenty dollars to see it enacted on a screen as well.
Attacking the fans has been such a successful strategy for woke Hollywood, nothing like telling customers how terrible/stupid they are while expecting them to hand you their money. Stunning and brave, now lets check the 2nd weekend box office........ oh 😂
Haha.
Golden shower has such a narrow, Americanized view of old age. Across most of the globe elders are respected and revered for their experiences and knowledge. I feel bad for his parents.
It is clear they believe that good box office results are their noble right and we peasants are incapable of just being thankful they provided us a table scrap.
I think- in typical Hollyweird fashion, they're so used to a shallow, pop-culture understanding of everything, that they forget reality & nuance...
The Feudal System was, in fact, *not* just about the nobility, clergy, & warrior-class constantly taking from the commoners, & oppressing them- & nothing else - it was a social contract, of *_mutual benefit_* ; as they say- reciprocity, is the key to every relationship- you give, to get- & get, to give - *everyone* _has_ to play their part properly, for things to not implode: everybody owes, everybody pays - you don't provide for the 'people at the bottom'- why the hell should they give you jack, & certainly not their hard-earned money...?
That was no character arc, that was a nose dive into an empty pool. R.I.P. Indy
It's been amusing watching Hollywood freak out over a movie you'd think they'd all get behind!!! (Sound of Freedom) but I guess it does call out a lot of big-wigs, so..
One time i saw a movie and the dude next to me had a nose whistle. I have no idea what movie i saw.
"Just focus on where the character starts. Not on what we're doing with the corpse."
-James (Wo)Mangold, certified genius.
First, my intelligence was insulted by their terrible products, then, when I voice my concerns about this, I’m insulted again as “I just don’t get it”. I hope Disney gets this: my transactional relationship with you has now reached a permanent end, and there are many like me.
Doubt if anyone who agreed to watch a hero from a previous movie, who turns out to be unable to maintain human relatioships or keep a positive attitude in life would consider this to be an inspirational story for aging ...
10:00 I mean, I'm a cinema goer on occasion, but you are correct. I wish every seat came with its own pair of headphones so you could only hear the movie you are watching, not the popcorn and soda slurping or people talking. Now, granted, I do these things occasionally too, but I try to be quiet.
We all wanted a good movie like him and short round having to save mutt in the end indy looses an eye to shave short round and that leads to his retirement. Also seeing Simon peg complaining that star wars fans being toxic after making episodes on a show attacking lucas and fans of the prequels proves hes a hypocrite
Eye patch Indy is no longer canon to Young Indiana Jones, the actor’s scenes are gone from the series. Only Ford’s cameo as Indy remains.
@ajclements4627 That's bs. Okay, let's boycott anything disney does for all time, anyone else down?
If there were to be viable Indy sequels, then they needed to made when it was logical to do so. A few years after Last Crusade. These last two were nothing but pathetic, attempted cash grabs. I'm perfectly happy with the Original Trilogy & even happier to consider anything else NON CANON.
Same goes for Star Wars.
Old Indy already has been portrayed by George Lucas during Young Indiana Jones chronicles. It’s already been established as canon that Indy lived happily with his granddaughter and grandson through at least 1993 in a nice New England suburb which was a bright and cheery residence. He routinely spent time lecturing as a Professor Emeritus with his university, local museums, and overseas conferences. During the show, he was a happy, well adjusted, elderly professional with a clear zest for life who enjoyed telling his many life stories to whomever was on hand to listen. This loser portrayed by Disney in the latest film was nothing like Old Indy created by Lucas. Plus, Old Indy had apparently lost his right eye in what appears to have been a sword fight (similar to Anakin’s eye injury Lucas created a decade later).
Tom Cruise looks like he's having the time of his life. Harrison Ford looks like the washed up remnants of someone who already had their time in life.
Typical gaslighting! No one minds heroes having struggles, but we mind malicious deconstruction and character assassinations of our favorite characters, in order to replace them with more self-insert KK clones! And if a studio does it over, and over, and over again, you can’t expect your choices to be judged in isolation!
Why didn’t they end at Last Crusade? It’s not that hard, people. You didn’t need to make Crystal Skull and you certainly didn’t need to make this.
They will never understand that it's often better to just simply turn off the lights on an empty stage. Jackie Gleason did one season of the Honeymooners when they could have done many more. He understood.
Greed. People need to let things go. That's a huge problem in America. A lot of movies damaged their legacy because they stuck around for too long.
They certainly didn't, but if they'd actually respected the audience and the character, they could have constructed a story that might actually been palatable. I'd rather see a new good story personally though.
Because as long as people line up to gobble up the goy slop, they will keep serving it up. Fortunately, it seems that people are starting to get sick of it.
They DID end at Last Crusade.
It is pretty obvious that Indiana Jones 5 was designed to replace Indiana Jones with someone else. Disney and Lucasfilm did not want to see the franchise end. So, what do we get? A zombie movie that opens up Indiana Jones to the Walking Dead. And who is the new zombie hero? Given Kennedy's and Mangold's inability to tell a story without ideology and identity politics, the replacement had to be a brunette and a feminist, a Kathleen-Kennedy insert, who is far better than the original character. After this, Mangold can't understand why the audience has rejected his movie? That is actually funny. Helena Shaw has no character arc, and Indiana Jones wants to die. Getting older is not necessarily disappointing. Mangold and Kennedy most certainly are. If a studio can't make a movie that the audience wants, the studio is to blame, not the paying customer. Disney and Lucasfilm can't seem to understand this.
I'm openly divisive, I like to divide the good stuff from the crap
Remember, there are only two options: perfect flawless characters who succeed at everything, and depressed losers who want to die. There are no alternatives.
😂 getting older is disappointing... I'm glad this movie has a good message
Hey Disney I've got a great idea for a new Star Wars story. Rey as a crotchety old woman who lives in a stinky bedsit and necks a bottle of gin for breakfast every morning, played by Miriam Margolyes. Because, you know, character arc and stuff. Can I have my 20 million in bundles of 100s, please?
"The peasants, thank you for explaining what a character arc is. I am still training in how to use rudimentary tools" ❤ loved how you pin it and explain. Just shows that Hollywood thinks lesser of their clients
Simon Pegg spent years mocking the prequel trilogy, so I find it mildly ironic how he's now defending the sequels and attacking those who hate them.
For me, the story arc ended when IJ and his father rode off into the sunset. That’s my happy place and No woke garbage can or will change it.
If the customers don’t want to buy your product it doesn’t matter how brilliant you think it is.
Somebody asked a UA-camr (CGP Grey I believe) “How to be successful on UA-cam.” To which he replied “Make videos that people want to watch.”
I miss the days when celebrities didn't directly interact with the public.
This is where I feel old - because I still have some nostalgia for seeing films at the cinema. There was less eating and noise, and the volume of the film wasn't turned up so high your fillings rattled.When the entire audience would catch their breath, or jump in their seats, as one, the film was more memorable (when video rentals started it was strange how reseeing a film you'd seen on screen on a 28" TV at home made for a smaller and less astounding experience). But at the point where I had to plug my ears with tissue to watch Phantom Menace... well that was the last time I saw a film in the cinema. In Harrison Ford's memories of cinema people dressed nicely, mostly cleared up their own litter, and it was the only place you'd get the movie in widescreen and the soundtrack in stereo. Seeing it in the cinema could make even a mediocre film into a night out. Heck, I was in the ABC Minors and that was a saturday spent with 'friends' you'd made according to who was in the seats near you, watching PeterCushing's Dr Who films and with virtually no adult supervision. Above a certain age movie-going was an entirely different experience - I'm old enough to understand what Harrison Ford is saying, but young enough to know that experience can't be discovered or recaptured nowadays.
You DON'T tell fans what they should like that.
THEY decide that.
It looks like the folks at Lucasfilm have forgotten that.
George forgot that after
Return of the Jedi
They have been telling people what to think for decades. Only their so arrogant they don’t try and hide it anymore.
@@proto-geek248 How? Remember how after every-one hated Jar Jar Binks dialogue in Episode 1, that George hid Jar Jar as much as he could afterwards.
@@blindlobster I went to the premier of Star Wars (NOT Episode IV: A New Hope, just plain Star Wars) in 1977, & attended the premiers of Empire & Jedi. Then when a Darth Vader origin movie was announced, I was pretty stoked. When I went to see Phantom Menace, five things several things struck me that eye-rollingly ruined the lore of the Original Trilogy:
1. Darth Vader being referred to as Annie
2. The Midichlorians
3. Killing off one of the best bad guys in SW history, Darth Maul
4. Killing off Qui Gon Jinn
5. Jar Jar Binks
I could go on. To me, the prequel trilogy is a travesty & a painful reminder of what could & should have been. I wasn't a kid when the prequels came out so my perspective is different. I just remember steaming when I left the theater 😁
OMG & then the next two 🙄
The last 10 minutes of Sith were cute, I have to admit.
And then this sequel crap & the terrible TV shows. Yea, no lol.
Baby Yoda. Wow. Great idea. A Yoda origin story. How could they possibly fuck this up? Oh . . . It's not Yoda 😑
OT All The Way!!
@@proto-geek248 Granted the prequels were not constantly good. George was too focused on the final film (episode 3) to realise the problems in the earlier two episodes. For example, three of the problems mentioned happened for benefit of episode three (1, 2 & 4). Although I don't see the problem with Darth Maul, should Lucas have made him run away? I never saw the appeal myself. Yes, Maul was a great athlete but he barely spoke. With Jar Jar Binks, at least Lucas understood he made a mistake and tried to lessen the problem. The writers of today would have doubled down and "forced" us to like him.
With Star Wars, I found the "corrections" of the OT to be more offensive than the prequel trilogy. Although I will admit that of the three prequel films, only episode 3 wasn't bad.
Character arcs like Han Solo who starts out as a smuggler and grows into fitting into a family group fighting for something greater than himself just to dump him into the Force Awakens after failing as a father and husband being a smuggler yet again... Such a character arc...
Yeah, that was the big problem with the original Indiana Jones movies.
He didn't have any problems to deal with.
Thanks for fixing the Indiana Jones movies, James Mangold !!!
"These people" are waiting for Mission Impossible to open!! With our preordered tickets in hand!!!
While I can definitely appreciate Harrison Ford as an actor, and he's played the part of some of my favorite characters in Cinema, namely Han Solo and Indiana Jones, honestly I don't think I'd ever be able to say that I'd like Harrison as a person. Even when he was young he came across as a crotchety and rather abrasive person, the kind of actor who plays the role, but the moment a fan meets him and gushes a bit he'd just tell them to f**k off. Maybe he just doesn't have the personality type to be able to handle public spotlight (I can certainly sympathize), but I do think that it does somewhat harm people's enjoyment of his movies at least to a small degree when they realize that Ford himself really didn't give a damn about many of his most beloved and iconic roles. And honestly his Thank You video for Indiana 5 just looked like him being in front of a camera and saying that stuff while people off camera aimed guns at him.
He's never really felt like he gives too much of a s**t. In some ways that's kind of admirable, but in other ways it's very off putting. Even when he was playing Han or Indy back in the 70's and 80's, he really came across in a lot of interviews as just not giving much of a f**k and just being there for the paycheck. Sure, at the end of the day that's what most anybody does, but he was pretty brazen with not caring.
Compare this to someone like Tom Cruise. Say what you want about Tom during his crazy years as a Scientologist (not sure if he ever broke out of that cult or not), but it's pretty apparent that while he certainly does what he does for money, he also ENJOYS it and legitimately enjoys pleasing the fans. That kind of energy, passion, and love for the art does tend to shine through, and even some of Cruise's less successful films were typically unsuccessful in spite of him rather than because of him.
The problem is Indiana Jones fans didnt want or ask for a new Indiana movie. Disney insisted one be made, and when we didnt like the garbage they put out, they call us toxic fans, and misoginists.
But guess what Disney, i loved the first three movies, and as i recall they all had female characters. So we are not misoginists for liking those movies but we are for not liking this one?
Do I need to say any more? I called this weeks ago and it's time to finally just cast Harrison 'I hate everything I ever did' Ford away, he is a bitter cynical old man who should've remained a Janitor
Yes, yes & yes
Weird how the movies are called "Indiana Jones" yet the director tries to defend why the movie is no longer about the main character.... If it's no longer about Indiana Jones, then just frigging end the series instead of milking it for all its worth. Better yet, make a new series and call it something else in the same universe but just leave Indiana jones out of it.
I watched ‘Temple of Doom’ last night …. Great stuff! No need to watch any of this new bollocks when we have the originals
"In this movie we have a poorly edited and hard to follow plot, an unlikable man hating Mary Sue as the lead character, and we punch Indiana Jones in the face. You're welcome. Give us money!"
- James Manchild
Ford has made a bunch of great movies in his career. But his attitude towards fans has always been somewhere between indifference and distain. You know it was hard for him to pretend to have gratitude.
My brother met Peter Mayhew...ya know Chewie. I guess All he did was bash Ford the whole time he spoke with him besides going outside for a fag. Supposeably he's one arrogant bastard. Come to think of it he does kinda come off that way in interviews😂
@@m780dff it wasn’t a complaint, it was an observation. I don’t go to conventions or buy merchandise or seek autographs myself so I’m not goin to pretend to know what his fan interaction are like. I’ll leave that to douchebags like yourself. But Let me try to explain so that you can understands my post. it doesn’t matter if he loves or hates the “fans” my point was about the dichotomy of then vs now. It comes off as disingenuous. If you still don’t understand, consider this. The ford video is compared with the cruise video after top gun 2.
But where cruise’s was made after his movie was already a huge success, fords is made after a sluggish opening. It seems like desperation.
As a man I rarely go to the movies anymore. I’m not a sadist that pays people to emotionally abuse me through a screen
There's never a good reason to attack fans of entertainment. Never.
I hate watching movies with a ton of people I don't know, laughing at things that aren't funny, talking during quiet scenes etc. When I reaaaly want to watch a movie at the theater I wait a couple of weeks for the hype to die down and go to the latest session possible.
If you've ever seen Bubba Hotep you might agree with me that it points the way to a decent Indy 5 flick. Indy old, discounted, no longer taken seriously and then, something amazing and sinister happens.
Why does he think fans want infallible legacy characters? Infallibility was never the issue, particularly in Indy's case. Much of Indy's charm was his winsome determination through difficulties, of which many were caused by his own failures and unlucky circumstances. "I don't know; I'm making this up as I go," is one of his most characteristic lines. Moreover, it's not as though these characters can't change or develop new layers: those things merely have to make sense with the character, and they probably shouldn't turn the character into someone antithetical to the central motivation and appeal which he had in the first place. I haven't seen the film, but Deadbeat Jones seems to be neither a pulp adventure hero, nor someone who used to be.
We are not looking for a deconstruction of another iconic character. We are looking for 2 hours of freedom from our own problems. And, to be entertained.
See, this is what is wrong with the world, as the world was a lot better when people thought that "the customer " is always right, now they just blame the customer, because they don't have a clue of what the customer actually wants🤦♂️🤯 It is arse about!😒