I can't understand the constant return to the gnomecube discussion. It's so cool that the community has figured out how to weave actions together to save ticks. It's not necessary to do it. For those of us that want to use it, it is an enjoyable manipulation of the game.
as maxed player that got the "grinds" out of way, I don't really see anything wrong with low intensity low xp methods like stars. I don't really particularly agree with the coin pouch for sake of have people keep clicking every 2-3 minutes. I mean in end of day, you can just click intensively for 6 minutes doing granite and pretty much get the work done vs clicking star every 10-15 minutes for an hr. Seems like silly gatekeeping to me. If there are intensive methods that gets 6-7x xp/hr or very rewarding and much praised methods like hallowed sepulcher for great gp and xp/hr, why not the other way where it's very low (or negative) gp and xp/hr for low effort? Feels like these focus way too much on HLC high intensity gatekeeping methods rather than general playerbase if anything. I do agree with more things like sepulcher for other skills tho. I think these "ezscape" feature creep is inevitable for game progressing forward but as long as the balance between high intensity and low intensity methods are kept in significant way, I don't really see anything wrong with it. Game going forward with updates is a net positive in my opinion, and compared to those times in OSRS launch where I've seen sub 10k players online at times with #nochanges purists, I think the health of game is whole lot better.' also that 2007scape idea with no changes was what led to it having 9k online players in first place. It dies after novelty dies off really fast and I watched it live. I get saebae has some fixation on it from never having experienced it and wants to experience it himself but he didn't see the downsides at all. It genuinely died after hype of oldschool coming back w/o any updates real fast to point you barely saw anyone really online. It was really barren and only really had the nochanges/purist crowd satisfied while you saw empty friendlist and the world
Biggest issue i can see is that its a bandaid solution that can lead to worse outcomes, if jagex gets comfortable with skills being bad because "you can just afk them" they wont feel the need to add better content. If agility had a super afk 10k xp/hr method that let u 20 min afk we might never have gotten Sepulchre, i sincerely believe sepulchre was born from the fact that agility was seen as a terrible and boring skill.
I agree with Sae in saying that rushing to the endgame is bad... When I started my ironman on member, I actually burnt out because I was trying to rush quests etc. Feeling that I was wasting my membership if I were to take it slow. Result is that I did not renew my membership on that account and started a F2P chunkman where I'm taking it extremely slow, enjoying every single detail in each chunk. As that's the way I prefer to play.
My current Ironman I made a goal to get all cool uniques and complete all quests before I got membership and it made that usually boring part of the game extremely fun and rewarding.
I think some in the HLC get real worked about Stars, which are 1/6th an EHP purely because it's low interaction. They often show they haven't done the methods either. Stars were called 25 minute afk in this podcast. They aren't that. The longest afk you get since changes is around 11 minutes and thats at tier 1 where the xp rates are the lowest as well. It's afk was **halved** in the recent change. It used to be the same rates, but twice as afk, you just had to scout stars for yourself and avoid the CCs and working together (which was dumb). Id be fine with stars being brought to a 5-8 minute afk. And I'm also fine with XP/hr capping at 25k. So you're getting between 20-25k/hr and 5-8 minute of afk. Redwoods is 5 minute afk consistently and it's 70k/hr, about to be buffed with 2h axes. It's gonna be close to 1/3 EHP at 5 mins. So stars being 1/6 EHP at 10 minutes is actually nearly perfectly balanced. A lot of emotions in their opinions on this and it's clearly coming from pride of their pasts. Even them talking about interfacing and right clicking had me laughing because I KNOW elegy used AHK to right click menu, we ALL DID back then. So he didn't even enjoy it, he circumvented it. MES and shift click just allowed the playing field to be level and AHK to be outright bannable so there was no grey area (not to say it's well enforced though). A lot of these features and gameplay styles that are being discussed as being missed... Still exist. You can say "well we are obviously going to use the easier or better methods" but that just strengthens my previous point. You didn't actually use those methods when they were the norm, you circumvented them. So I think some rose tinted glasses are convincing you those were better times. Watch how b0aty still plays. Barely any plugins, right click drops and uses pots and such. Hardly any MES. Yet he's still a top tier player. Because that's how he enjoys it and what he is used to.
You talk about "not having done the methods" and then you proceed to give borderline incorrect information that you just made up on the spot. The longest AFK is NOT 11 minutes and they did not half the XP either. What are you even saying? The afk is around 24 minutes for a tier 1 star and the XP is not reduced. Then you talk about redwoods, thats just whataboutism, people who are against star mining are also, for the most part, against redwoods Then you compare shift click to AHK, laughable, AHK is 3 actions to drop 1 ore whereas Menu Entry Swap is 1 action to drop an ore.
Great cast and discussions. Imo, part of the beauty of 3t4g and 1.5t teaks etc is the entire reason these methods exists is due to players ingenuity discovering using items to generate a cycle to speed up other methods. It just seems a bit crazy to me writing off the fact that the whole reason they are able to exist and the way they were discovered as just a totally unnecessary click but maybe I'm misunderstanding. Imo - make reindeer hat available at all times. 3t barb (or 3t woodcut) with reindeer hat is a perfect entry point tick manip -> Herb/tar or knife/log barb is next to no wrist strain with resizable -> Migrate up to 3t4g/3t hunt/cuteat barb -> then finally try out optimized hunter and 1.5t teaks. 2t fish and drift net are obv superior to the 3t alternative but barb is a good way to learn and train clicks.
The reason the 6 hour thing changed is because of the teleport crystal. They had to change how the game works for that to be able to work how they wanted
25:07 on the topic of getting players to end game quickly. My brother wanted me to try out world of warcraft one time, and there was some promo or something that with his referral, got me a maxed out lvl 60 account straight off the bat. And the way he explained it to me was that the early game stuff in wow was pretty unimportant, and that the majority of the cool shit you can do in the game pretty much required that max account as like a base easy requirement, and then after that there's so much content that you can do, and the gear upgrades etc, to where it just kinda made sense. And I do see the point of them doing that in wow but in rs its just a little different because account progression seems to be a much longer thing on rs. Which I think is pretty fun as well as far as questing and getting diaries done etc. The thing I do have a issue with though, are those early slayer levels, no one wants to do some of those absolutely terrible early slayer tasks, they just are just super slow and unenjoyable. That's the only issue I have with early game, even when he got to duradel or nieve, some of the tasks he got like 180 black demons took him hours with his gear and stats, and most players dont have the money to just blowpipe and cannon everything, or the knowledge. So I think it definitely needs some balancing to make a little more sense progression wise.
Forestry was so bad it almost made me quit. It made me step away from the game for a while. On a surface level, Forestry was bad in terms of concept, design, and implementation. Every single layer of the process was screwed up. That speaks volumes about Jagex and made me lose a ton of trust in the team, and a ton of confidence in the future of the game. So I can't cope and say, "I trust the jmods, but--". The team is inconsistent. I lost motivation to play because I lost trust in the product. The game became a little more "mortal," so to speak. Forestry makes it easy to imagine a not-too-far-off OSRS, one that's morphed into an unrecognizable conglomeration like RS3 is now. I quit RS3 not long after EoC.
Yeah the quality depends a LOT on the team that’s making the content. Like look at how incredible DT2 was on release. Very minimal issues, a well polished amazing quest, and 4 incredible bosses with awakened versions only coming out a few days later. Then you look at Forestry, which is a half baked mess of an update that still isn’t fully released, and the content itself is just a massive XP increase disguised by random events with nothing really to offer outside of that. The Jmods are very capable of releasing incredible updates and I do tend to put a lot of faith in them, but the team behind Forestry clearly had a lot of new people or less experienced mods working on it, which is why it turned out the way it did.
I genuinely believe anyone this worked up over forestry was already done with the game. It did nothing but improve baseline Woodcutting. Chopping trees with others isn't bad. Trees are on a timer. And now there's a worldwide minigame aspect to Woodcutting where random things occur that you can participate actively with to gain more XP Are they basic? Hell yes. But it's **Woodcutting**. If they made sepulchre minigames popup every 10 minutes people would cry about them making things to complex. It's just added variety and interaction + encouraging a social aspect to the skill. Nothing but good. In fact the main thing I think is poorly designed around forestry is the heavy focus on leaves, which all ideas around are scrapped because they were just disconnected with the skill far too much. And I don't think forestry needs any more pets. It has the beaver recolour in the shop like other skilling minigames/activities. That's enough. We didn't ALSO need a fox and a pheasant from specific events.
@@VallianceRS I don't get what the point of writing something like that is. I just shared my thoughts, you feel differently, and I guess you can't imagine someone having a different point of view. I really did stop playing because of Forestry. I'm playing again now. Thankfully I have 99wc, but the damage is done. I could make a long list of problems I have with the update, but it's a well worn topic so I prefer not to have to. I've talked about it so much I'm honestly sick of it. The downside is you'll continue to not get my pov. Saeder's already complained a lot about it in the pod and videos and I agree with most of his points. My main disagreement with him is I think they could have done better with the co-op mechanics. Also I'm not asking for Forestry to be anything like Sepulchre. That would be insane. I have no idea where you got that idea.
clicks podcast sees " 1:02:32 Gnome Cube " hears both guests explain that its a pointless suggestion. host puts fingers in his ears and insists once again that people would use it and find it fun. once again not thinking his idea through any further and ready to shove it down the next guests throat. He Box Jonge says nothing but facts. people who just want to chill likely would have no interest in tick manip, heck they literally choose methods with half the xp and 0 resources over everything else. good to see some more 'sweaty' skillers are still not completely out of touch with their thoughts
You conveniently glance over the players that DO want to get involved in rhythmic skilling, though. I have plenty of examples from real players that have thanked me for introducing to them 4-tick bark methods. They love the methods and are sad to see the jump from 4-tick to 3-tick being a massive leap in difficulty. Adding a gnome cube would be a 50% click reduction over non-drop tick-manip skilling methods. That's huge for wrist strain and does not impact what makes those methods fun and addicting.
@@ac979 I think idea is fine but he does bring it up very often to point it feels very repetitive. I am enjoying his content listening to his podcast but I've been listening fair bit lately and it's getting really stale
So for anyone trying to get into tick manipulation but you're a little worried about the wrist or hand pain or you're just looking to really start understand the tick system with skilling, I play a lot of mobile and its a lot easier to move your thumb on a little screen than your mouse across your PC. its not as efficient because dropping on mobile is a bit of a pain but you can definitely start learning the flow of tick mani methods with an easier barrier of entry.
Love your vids/ 2 phenomenal guests. On the gnome cube thing though, I kinda have to side with He Box. I think there's one key concept behind all inventory-based tick manipulation: Starting another action after the skilling timer has gone off will reset the skilling timer to however many ticks. 3,or 4, or 5, whatever. That's the one thing to get down for knife log/herb tar/ bark/ more exotic stuff, and its the same reason that getting out of cycle makes it "not work". From one point of view, adding a gnome cube type item would be adding an item with a left click option to "try" to do something, but actually do nothing which feels a bit artificial. From the other, it'd be like if Celastrus bark were 3t, or if logs had a left click "fletch stock" option. Sure, it makes 3 ticking easier to get into, but I'd argue it actually makes it harder to learn what's going on in a general sense (or what's going wrong when out of cycle). It's trying to reduce the required number of clicks to get people to try a tick-intensive method, but the real difficulty was never the number of clicks anyway - it was understanding the mechanics/timing and finding a rhythm
Sorry I just realized I commented too early; Was around halfway through the gnome cube section and immediately after I hit unpause, realized everything I said came up. Didn't mean to rehash the same arguments, gonna keep listening
I can really appreciate the steadfastness of both Saeder's & Max's opinion on the "Gnome Cube" and the flow of beginning the tick manipulation actions. I'm not sure where I stand on the matter - sometimes people just need a push in the right direction (for me, it was 3t Gem Mining) and maybe the gnome cube offers this? It's hard to say exactly. Tick manip is already a low barrier to entry (aside from time) because all you need is a knife, log, herb, tar, or celastrus bark to begin ANY process, and the willingness to learn. In any case, love the discussion.
I would love there to be a way to prevent accidentally completing a fletch or herb-tar action. Being new to tick-manip myself, it’s very frustrating to have to bank while I’m trying to learn because I messed up the cycle. Instead of a single item you click, they could add two items that you use on each other to match the same interaction as knife-log or herb-tar without frustrating newcomers.
I disagree with Autumn Elegy's statement that the removed click (while using a "gnome-cube") is the least difficult click of the cycle; from a new/learning point of view, that is. Efficient 3t4g is essentially comprised of (2) distinct sets of action: The set for mining, which is the 3t4g-part; and the set for dropping, which only effects the efficiency-part. Therefore, only the first grouping of clicks are relevant when comparing difficulties. Thus labeling the (2) invy clicks "most difficult" due to the unfamiliar flow required of the mouse. Ideally, the "gnome-cube" would significantly cut the learning curve of the mining cycle clicks/timing, giving the learner a sense of accomplishment, further motivating them to keep going (as opposed to rage-quitting). The next step is to add in, and practice, dropping between rocks. Once both sets of action feel comfortable and consistent, they can then start to phase out the "gnome-cube", and begin practice with a more mainstream 3t alternative. Baby-steps is the best way to learn. :)
The reason why the six hour afk thing works is because of the changes to the teleport crystal for HCIM and how it registers interactions with the game. I don't think it's because the mods don't care about it, just that stopping it would also impact the teleport crystal negatively.
One the point Autumn Elegy made on the cube being an acceptable means to bug abuse. Jagex has fully embrace tick manip at this point. On RS3 the hunter cape perk is literally an action that resets the tick cycle when setting up traps.
Providing an argument to bolster sae baes point regarding why a single click for a tick manip is better than 2 clicks is that the major appeal of the celastrus bark for me was that it was one click. The amount of clicks you need to cram into a single tick to do the manip for 3 tick methods is annoying af and is likely to lead to injury. Sure if players learned how to optimize their set up then they would be less prone to injury, but it is unrealistic imo to expect players to do that.
I still think it isn't right that we exclusively talk about the reward from skilling and what every skilling activity is balanced around is xp rates. Gathering in particular has no value in the main game, so the xp is all you get.
I love that Jonge called out sae Bae about the “wrist breaking” comment 😂😂 like thank God sae baeby doesn’t have a real job. I don’t think he realizes how soft he’s become.
what is the difference between menu entry swapper and your gnome cube? Aren't both to fight wrist pain? 5:47. I think things like dodgy neclaces and shadow veil where good additions making thieving less boring.
1:25:30 @Saeder does this mean you would be okay/happy with them updating things like construction to be 1 click removal instead of requiring right click remove? This in my mind is a 1:1 comparison, the right click remove is as pointless as right click drop, and a shift click remove and 1 click build would be purely QOL and not ruing the skill
@@Zerobeat60 I'm one of those people who like tick manipulation methods but I rarely do them because it's too harsh to do for longer than 30minutes at a time.
Honestly the biggest thing I had against the duke mining is the fact that people are actually having their PC on during the night while they sleep. Do they know much electricity they're wasting!? Times are hard man, at least over here, that'd be expensive especially if you're rocking a gaming PC!
yea, I think gaming's supposed to be done for recreation, this just feels wasteful. Similar reason why I hate bitcoin, a potentially useful idea with the application wasting common resources for the gain of few, without much other good.
He box says "for normal people minning is like 35k/h in MLM" like it is a good example. MLM becomes not afk to get this rate. 35k/h for low effort but not afk is insanely bad. 370hours for a 99 is bonkers.
Unfortunately until they fix the overwhelmingly rampant botting problem they can't buff any gathering merthods like blast mine, hard to find a bot there that isn't over 20m xp.
with the 2handed axe you would asume it be better at larger trees. and the normal axe at smaller trees. or that you use the 2handed axe to cut tree into large logs witch you could then chop into normal logs. how you in real life have a choping block with you cut the wood smaller.
My low effort star mining with 86 is only about 18k xp per hr on average. The afk time is less than 25 minutes I don't think any layer lasts that long. The xp per hour is lower the lower tier of the star but afk increases. Also sometimes u make it to a star and it despawns before full time during the end of the 2 hour window.
Your opinions are very gatekeepe amd elitist. I don't see any push back for updates and plugins that help high level skilling. Menu entry swapper, markers and modified shift clicking should not exist if we care about xp rates ant challange of the game.
@@Saeder not at all. I might not been clear. To clarify - don't understand how you don't want to make skilling esier but approve of menu entry swapper etc.
these rambles are amazing don't get me wrong, i was getting elitist vibes at points from both of these guys (especially during the gnome cube convo) , i just hate the "since i suffered u should as well" sentiment, you mentioned adding the gnome cube but not changing the log+knife method and he was against it, game needs to evolve at a point, make these methods more accessible or remove them since they are technically "bugs". Keep up the good work man, love watching these rambles @@Saeder
On the gnome cube topic, Speaking as someone interested in tick manip methods but bad at them. I found it frustrating whenever I would screw up knife log, because I would end up having to bank. I'm not against keeping a starter for the 3t cycle 2 clicks, (like knife log) but it would be nice if there also wasn't a chance i'd have to go bank again if I'm too slow. I think the reduced exp rate is enough punishment
its so crazy to listen to this circle of end game skillers talk about how it's good for the game to be worse, so they can be more impressed with themselves . if jagex catered to these 100s of people instead of the hundreds of thousands of people who are casual, theyre greifing their own game. W gnomecube, W saebae here, L elegy
They just have a different view of what the game should be and what makes the game fun and that opinion is just as valid as anyone else's despite being in the minority. We have to listen to everyone so we can make compromises that cater to a wider audience of players. We saw what happened with RS3 when they started adding these things that osrs players are proposing now and I'm not talking about EOC.
RE gnome cube discussion - wouldnt it be better if there were skilling methods that were engaging, flow based, repetitive, rewarding for mastery IE sepulcure that don't involve interrupting an action
someone pls reply letting me know if they talk about Jagex releasing updates in multiple parts (Example: Forestry p1 & p2) & if so please time stamp. Sorry I just do not have 4 hours to listen…
In HLC made up world where forestry is 100k/hr and no effort. Redwoods are 60-70k/hr. And forestry is 70-90k/hr and far more attention involved. It's very well placed ATM, with EHP being 200k/hr or even more. Hell 1.5t teaks beats forester's best rates from the moment you can do it.
people are so livid... because it's so silly... there really is no need. Tick manip is also for a niche community... imagine fucking it up for them? lol...
Think this episode really suffers from having no opposite viewpoint. Having to listen in chunks of 20 minutes or so to not lose my mind over hearing no opposition toward any ideas.
Did you watch the whole episode? There obviously wasn't a huge pushback on most things since they're all skillers with similar mindsets but they definitely offered a lot of different viewpoints
This idea that we shouldn't change training methods that people have already been enjoying is seriously flawed. If we followed this logic we'd still have unidentified herbs. We'd still be burying our dragon bones at the bank because altars are easyScape. Forget 4 tick granite, when I started in RSC we power mines iron and it was one click per attempt to get the ore. Most of these modern methods were never even possible when I first started playing in classic. If Jagex flowed this logic of not changing training methods just because a minority of the player base enjoy them, then not only would 4 tick granite not exist, neither would Runescape.
it's amazing how many QoL updates to this game are just fixing bizarre design decisions made by 3 dudes who really liked DnD and didn't think anyone would ever level a skill above like 70
"If you're into 200 mils, rc is currently pretty free". Compare the rc xp rate for those mains who now get 300k xp/hr with lava runners to those who used to get 70k xp/hr doing solo lavas before runners became a thing. It's 4 times faster. Idk how that isn't "free" in that sense. Of course, to most players that is nonsense, but they specifically stated for people going for 200m. So you're still missing the context. I actually think he box is a very aware skiller who shouldn't just be considered "a delusional elitist" @@BewilderedAsshat
May I refer to he box jonge's/JCW's speedrun? They both achieve 300k rc xp/hr with 4 runners. No one used to do that. So I assume that's what they mean with rc getting easier @@BewilderedAsshat
1:26:50 regarding hotkeys for prayers rs3 has that! it's amazIng, I love it, and I wish osrs had it I really don't see the big issue with it, it's NOT a slippery slope to eoc, it's just assigning keys to existing actions in game
Thats the thing though. Getting max efficient hour played exp rates at skilling and maintaining it IS very hard. Theres lots of people who derive enjoyment from achieving that. You can say combat is easy - just afk NMZ or sand crabs, but obviously raids and bosses show that combat CAN be very difficult.
@@shasan2393 that’s basically comparing speed runner community to the max efficient exp rate community both are a similar size community . One thing there tho you practice max exp rate for 2-6 hours and you’ll have it down , speed running pvm there’s always something more to learn . I think majority of the RuneScape community leans more to pvm than skilling due to the fact that there’s always something more challenging to learn about it
I think the point of Elegy's tweet was to better show people how ridiculous it would be to make everything idle by using pvm as the example instead of skilling like the original tweet.
I can't understand the constant return to the gnomecube discussion. It's so cool that the community has figured out how to weave actions together to save ticks. It's not necessary to do it. For those of us that want to use it, it is an enjoyable manipulation of the game.
Well put. Carpal tunnel isn’t real either.
And to be honest I think it’d detract from the 3t cycle flow
the most goated guests of all time
Just seeing the guests and duration makes me know this will be a good one! Perfect for cleaning my apartment :^)
as maxed player that got the "grinds" out of way, I don't really see anything wrong with low intensity low xp methods like stars. I don't really particularly agree with the coin pouch for sake of have people keep clicking every 2-3 minutes. I mean in end of day, you can just click intensively for 6 minutes doing granite and pretty much get the work done vs clicking star every 10-15 minutes for an hr. Seems like silly gatekeeping to me.
If there are intensive methods that gets 6-7x xp/hr or very rewarding and much praised methods like hallowed sepulcher for great gp and xp/hr, why not the other way where it's very low (or negative) gp and xp/hr for low effort?
Feels like these focus way too much on HLC high intensity gatekeeping methods rather than general playerbase if anything.
I do agree with more things like sepulcher for other skills tho.
I think these "ezscape" feature creep is inevitable for game progressing forward but as long as the balance between high intensity and low intensity methods are kept in significant way, I don't really see anything wrong with it.
Game going forward with updates is a net positive in my opinion, and compared to those times in OSRS launch where I've seen sub 10k players online at times with #nochanges purists, I think the health of game is whole lot better.'
also that 2007scape idea with no changes was what led to it having 9k online players in first place. It dies after novelty dies off really fast and I watched it live. I get saebae has some fixation on it from never having experienced it and wants to experience it himself but he didn't see the downsides at all. It genuinely died after hype of oldschool coming back w/o any updates real fast to point you barely saw anyone really online. It was really barren and only really had the nochanges/purist crowd satisfied while you saw empty friendlist and the world
Biggest issue i can see is that its a bandaid solution that can lead to worse outcomes, if jagex gets comfortable with skills being bad because "you can just afk them" they wont feel the need to add better content. If agility had a super afk 10k xp/hr method that let u 20 min afk we might never have gotten Sepulchre, i sincerely believe sepulchre was born from the fact that agility was seen as a terrible and boring skill.
I agree with Sae in saying that rushing to the endgame is bad... When I started my ironman on member, I actually burnt out because I was trying to rush quests etc.
Feeling that I was wasting my membership if I were to take it slow.
Result is that I did not renew my membership on that account and started a F2P chunkman where I'm taking it extremely slow, enjoying every single detail in each chunk.
As that's the way I prefer to play.
My current Ironman I made a goal to get all cool uniques and complete all quests before I got membership and it made that usually boring part of the game extremely fun and rewarding.
I think some in the HLC get real worked about Stars, which are 1/6th an EHP purely because it's low interaction. They often show they haven't done the methods either. Stars were called 25 minute afk in this podcast. They aren't that. The longest afk you get since changes is around 11 minutes and thats at tier 1 where the xp rates are the lowest as well. It's afk was **halved** in the recent change. It used to be the same rates, but twice as afk, you just had to scout stars for yourself and avoid the CCs and working together (which was dumb).
Id be fine with stars being brought to a 5-8 minute afk. And I'm also fine with XP/hr capping at 25k. So you're getting between 20-25k/hr and 5-8 minute of afk.
Redwoods is 5 minute afk consistently and it's 70k/hr, about to be buffed with 2h axes. It's gonna be close to 1/3 EHP at 5 mins. So stars being 1/6 EHP at 10 minutes is actually nearly perfectly balanced.
A lot of emotions in their opinions on this and it's clearly coming from pride of their pasts. Even them talking about interfacing and right clicking had me laughing because I KNOW elegy used AHK to right click menu, we ALL DID back then. So he didn't even enjoy it, he circumvented it. MES and shift click just allowed the playing field to be level and AHK to be outright bannable so there was no grey area (not to say it's well enforced though).
A lot of these features and gameplay styles that are being discussed as being missed... Still exist. You can say "well we are obviously going to use the easier or better methods" but that just strengthens my previous point. You didn't actually use those methods when they were the norm, you circumvented them. So I think some rose tinted glasses are convincing you those were better times. Watch how b0aty still plays. Barely any plugins, right click drops and uses pots and such. Hardly any MES. Yet he's still a top tier player. Because that's how he enjoys it and what he is used to.
You talk about "not having done the methods" and then you proceed to give borderline incorrect information that you just made up on the spot. The longest AFK is NOT 11 minutes and they did not half the XP either. What are you even saying? The afk is around 24 minutes for a tier 1 star and the XP is not reduced.
Then you talk about redwoods, thats just whataboutism, people who are against star mining are also, for the most part, against redwoods
Then you compare shift click to AHK, laughable, AHK is 3 actions to drop 1 ore whereas Menu Entry Swap is 1 action to drop an ore.
Great cast and discussions. Imo, part of the beauty of 3t4g and 1.5t teaks etc is the entire reason these methods exists is due to players ingenuity discovering using items to generate a cycle to speed up other methods. It just seems a bit crazy to me writing off the fact that the whole reason they are able to exist and the way they were discovered as just a totally unnecessary click but maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Imo - make reindeer hat available at all times. 3t barb (or 3t woodcut) with reindeer hat is a perfect entry point tick manip -> Herb/tar or knife/log barb is next to no wrist strain with resizable -> Migrate up to 3t4g/3t hunt/cuteat barb -> then finally try out optimized hunter and 1.5t teaks. 2t fish and drift net are obv superior to the 3t alternative but barb is a good way to learn and train clicks.
1:47:00 AFK magics is NOWHERE near yews + randoms... chill Magics are closer to 40k/hr while yews + randoms are close to 90k/hr.
inshallah he shall get the cube
Good cast, bummed dedwilson couldnt make it
The reason the 6 hour thing changed is because of the teleport crystal. They had to change how the game works for that to be able to work how they wanted
4 hours let's gooo
Ty for shoutout :)
10h version next time pls wowawewa
25:07 on the topic of getting players to end game quickly. My brother wanted me to try out world of warcraft one time, and there was some promo or something that with his referral, got me a maxed out lvl 60 account straight off the bat. And the way he explained it to me was that the early game stuff in wow was pretty unimportant, and that the majority of the cool shit you can do in the game pretty much required that max account as like a base easy requirement, and then after that there's so much content that you can do, and the gear upgrades etc, to where it just kinda made sense. And I do see the point of them doing that in wow but in rs its just a little different because account progression seems to be a much longer thing on rs. Which I think is pretty fun as well as far as questing and getting diaries done etc. The thing I do have a issue with though, are those early slayer levels, no one wants to do some of those absolutely terrible early slayer tasks, they just are just super slow and unenjoyable. That's the only issue I have with early game, even when he got to duradel or nieve, some of the tasks he got like 180 black demons took him hours with his gear and stats, and most players dont have the money to just blowpipe and cannon everything, or the knowledge. So I think it definitely needs some balancing to make a little more sense progression wise.
Aatykon did a really great discussion with a UIM creator named Zorte if you want to hear some different perspectives on these issues
Two Legends and Sae Bae, going to be a banger!
Forestry was so bad it almost made me quit. It made me step away from the game for a while. On a surface level, Forestry was bad in terms of concept, design, and implementation. Every single layer of the process was screwed up. That speaks volumes about Jagex and made me lose a ton of trust in the team, and a ton of confidence in the future of the game. So I can't cope and say, "I trust the jmods, but--". The team is inconsistent. I lost motivation to play because I lost trust in the product. The game became a little more "mortal," so to speak. Forestry makes it easy to imagine a not-too-far-off OSRS, one that's morphed into an unrecognizable conglomeration like RS3 is now. I quit RS3 not long after EoC.
Yeah the quality depends a LOT on the team that’s making the content. Like look at how incredible DT2 was on release. Very minimal issues, a well polished amazing quest, and 4 incredible bosses with awakened versions only coming out a few days later. Then you look at Forestry, which is a half baked mess of an update that still isn’t fully released, and the content itself is just a massive XP increase disguised by random events with nothing really to offer outside of that. The Jmods are very capable of releasing incredible updates and I do tend to put a lot of faith in them, but the team behind Forestry clearly had a lot of new people or less experienced mods working on it, which is why it turned out the way it did.
I genuinely believe anyone this worked up over forestry was already done with the game.
It did nothing but improve baseline Woodcutting. Chopping trees with others isn't bad. Trees are on a timer. And now there's a worldwide minigame aspect to Woodcutting where random things occur that you can participate actively with to gain more XP
Are they basic? Hell yes. But it's **Woodcutting**. If they made sepulchre minigames popup every 10 minutes people would cry about them making things to complex.
It's just added variety and interaction + encouraging a social aspect to the skill. Nothing but good. In fact the main thing I think is poorly designed around forestry is the heavy focus on leaves, which all ideas around are scrapped because they were just disconnected with the skill far too much. And I don't think forestry needs any more pets. It has the beaver recolour in the shop like other skilling minigames/activities. That's enough. We didn't ALSO need a fox and a pheasant from specific events.
@@VallianceRS I don't get what the point of writing something like that is. I just shared my thoughts, you feel differently, and I guess you can't imagine someone having a different point of view. I really did stop playing because of Forestry. I'm playing again now. Thankfully I have 99wc, but the damage is done.
I could make a long list of problems I have with the update, but it's a well worn topic so I prefer not to have to. I've talked about it so much I'm honestly sick of it. The downside is you'll continue to not get my pov. Saeder's already complained a lot about it in the pod and videos and I agree with most of his points. My main disagreement with him is I think they could have done better with the co-op mechanics. Also I'm not asking for Forestry to be anything like Sepulchre. That would be insane. I have no idea where you got that idea.
Oh my god put on your ice gloves boys, the takes are molten lava! But no lol good cast.
clicks podcast
sees " 1:02:32 Gnome Cube "
hears both guests explain that its a pointless suggestion. host puts fingers in his ears and insists once again that people would use it and find it fun. once again not thinking his idea through any further and ready to shove it down the next guests throat.
He Box Jonge says nothing but facts. people who just want to chill likely would have no interest in tick manip, heck they literally choose methods with half the xp and 0 resources over everything else. good to see some more 'sweaty' skillers are still not completely out of touch with their thoughts
You conveniently glance over the players that DO want to get involved in rhythmic skilling, though. I have plenty of examples from real players that have thanked me for introducing to them 4-tick bark methods. They love the methods and are sad to see the jump from 4-tick to 3-tick being a massive leap in difficulty. Adding a gnome cube would be a 50% click reduction over non-drop tick-manip skilling methods. That's huge for wrist strain and does not impact what makes those methods fun and addicting.
he doesn't get it, he literally just wants to keep talking about his one terrible idea until someone tells him they like it
@@SaederI like your idea, don't stop advocating for what you believe in. All for the gnome cube.
@@ac979 I think idea is fine but he does bring it up very often to point it feels very repetitive. I am enjoying his content listening to his podcast but I've been listening fair bit lately and it's getting really stale
@@trotskysrevengeits actually a good idea, he brings it up a lot tho lol
So for anyone trying to get into tick manipulation but you're a little worried about the wrist or hand pain or you're just looking to really start understand the tick system with skilling, I play a lot of mobile and its a lot easier to move your thumb on a little screen than your mouse across your PC. its not as efficient because dropping on mobile is a bit of a pain but you can definitely start learning the flow of tick mani methods with an easier barrier of entry.
Love your vids/ 2 phenomenal guests. On the gnome cube thing though, I kinda have to side with He Box. I think there's one key concept behind all inventory-based tick manipulation: Starting another action after the skilling timer has gone off will reset the skilling timer to however many ticks. 3,or 4, or 5, whatever. That's the one thing to get down for knife log/herb tar/ bark/ more exotic stuff, and its the same reason that getting out of cycle makes it "not work". From one point of view, adding a gnome cube type item would be adding an item with a left click option to "try" to do something, but actually do nothing which feels a bit artificial. From the other, it'd be like if Celastrus bark were 3t, or if logs had a left click "fletch stock" option. Sure, it makes 3 ticking easier to get into, but I'd argue it actually makes it harder to learn what's going on in a general sense (or what's going wrong when out of cycle). It's trying to reduce the required number of clicks to get people to try a tick-intensive method, but the real difficulty was never the number of clicks anyway - it was understanding the mechanics/timing and finding a rhythm
Sorry I just realized I commented too early; Was around halfway through the gnome cube section and immediately after I hit unpause, realized everything I said came up. Didn't mean to rehash the same arguments, gonna keep listening
Wow what a banger!
I can really appreciate the steadfastness of both Saeder's & Max's opinion on the "Gnome Cube" and the flow of beginning the tick manipulation actions. I'm not sure where I stand on the matter - sometimes people just need a push in the right direction (for me, it was 3t Gem Mining) and maybe the gnome cube offers this? It's hard to say exactly. Tick manip is already a low barrier to entry (aside from time) because all you need is a knife, log, herb, tar, or celastrus bark to begin ANY process, and the willingness to learn.
In any case, love the discussion.
I would love there to be a way to prevent accidentally completing a fletch or herb-tar action. Being new to tick-manip myself, it’s very frustrating to have to bank while I’m trying to learn because I messed up the cycle. Instead of a single item you click, they could add two items that you use on each other to match the same interaction as knife-log or herb-tar without frustrating newcomers.
4 hours! Let’s go
I disagree with Autumn Elegy's statement that the removed click (while using a "gnome-cube") is the least difficult click of the cycle; from a new/learning point of view, that is.
Efficient 3t4g is essentially comprised of (2) distinct sets of action:
The set for mining, which is the 3t4g-part; and the set for dropping, which only effects the efficiency-part. Therefore, only the first grouping of clicks are relevant when comparing difficulties. Thus labeling the (2) invy clicks "most difficult" due to the unfamiliar flow required of the mouse.
Ideally, the "gnome-cube" would significantly cut the learning curve of the mining cycle clicks/timing, giving the learner a sense of accomplishment, further motivating them to keep going (as opposed to rage-quitting). The next step is to add in, and practice, dropping between rocks. Once both sets of action feel comfortable and consistent, they can then start to phase out the "gnome-cube", and begin practice with a more mainstream 3t alternative.
Baby-steps is the best way to learn. :)
The reason why the six hour afk thing works is because of the changes to the teleport crystal for HCIM and how it registers interactions with the game. I don't think it's because the mods don't care about it, just that stopping it would also impact the teleport crystal negatively.
One the point Autumn Elegy made on the cube being an acceptable means to bug abuse. Jagex has fully embrace tick manip at this point. On RS3 the hunter cape perk is literally an action that resets the tick cycle when setting up traps.
So glad PAULNOLIFE got referenced in the AHK discussion 😂 . Shame the clip where he was banking with it is lost to time.
Providing an argument to bolster sae baes point regarding why a single click for a tick manip is better than 2 clicks is that the major appeal of the celastrus bark for me was that it was one click. The amount of clicks you need to cram into a single tick to do the manip for 3 tick methods is annoying af and is likely to lead to injury. Sure if players learned how to optimize their set up then they would be less prone to injury, but it is unrealistic imo to expect players to do that.
I still think it isn't right that we exclusively talk about the reward from skilling and what every skilling activity is balanced around is xp rates. Gathering in particular has no value in the main game, so the xp is all you get.
I love that Jonge called out sae Bae about the “wrist breaking” comment 😂😂 like thank God sae baeby doesn’t have a real job. I don’t think he realizes how soft he’s become.
what is the difference between menu entry swapper and your gnome cube? Aren't both to fight wrist pain? 5:47. I think things like dodgy neclaces and shadow veil where good additions making thieving less boring.
Yep. But wrist pain is just part of the design of RS and clearly we should just all accept that 😂
@@VallianceRS Yes indeed
Lasted 17 minutes gg
Why not keep knife log, but add a one-click fletch option on the log like celastrus bark, only it's 3-tick
The mining in Toa caps at 85 mining, so its pretty much what you want. I have 80 mining and cant make myself get 85 xD rather 2 down atm
82 mining + d pick spec works too
1:22:00 > onwards saying shift dropping isnt good lmao. just cant have anything nice T_T
1:25:30 @Saeder does this mean you would be okay/happy with them updating things like construction to be 1 click removal instead of requiring right click remove? This in my mind is a 1:1 comparison, the right click remove is as pointless as right click drop, and a shift click remove and 1 click build would be purely QOL and not ruing the skill
Yeah I’m cool with that
Any idea when the Firemaking update will come out and when the Halloween event is coming?
18:00 lmfao sae bae coming in hot with the bad takes
I liked listening to Sae Bae, but my god, the bad takes lately make these podcasts bordeline unlistenable
I mean let's be real that was right for a really long time. If you look at the boss list the majority of them are easy af
Would be nice if voting had a 10k ehp requirement
there is no need for "gnome cube"... the rewards for tick manip (greater xp) are for those who practice the methods...
The point is that it would make tick manipulation methods more enjoyable for most people and get more people into it
@@AIIu_ I am aware of the point… but why fix if it’s broken? Players who do these methods… i doubt they are complaining.
@@AIIu_ they all agreed that people who just wanna “chill” are not even going to attempt this with a “gnome cube”
@@Zerobeat60 I'm one of those people who like tick manipulation methods but I rarely do them because it's too harsh to do for longer than 30minutes at a time.
keep doing them and the "harshness" will go away @@AIIu_
Honestly the biggest thing I had against the duke mining is the fact that people are actually having their PC on during the night while they sleep. Do they know much electricity they're wasting!? Times are hard man, at least over here, that'd be expensive especially if you're rocking a gaming PC!
true, but depends on where you live tho aswell haha
yea, I think gaming's supposed to be done for recreation, this just feels wasteful. Similar reason why I hate bitcoin, a potentially useful idea with the application wasting common resources for the gain of few, without much other good.
@@selkokieli843isn't it a net zero currency??
@@Yltimate_ crypto's dollar value fluctuates, starting from zero. the early investors hope to gather it early and sell later once it's been pumped up
Nice
2004scape project!!! 2:34:40
Autumn elegy "known for making youtube videos years ago, and a couple 200ms" Yeahh sure, THAT is what he's known for >.>
Just fyi the star discord had around 70k people in it pre shooting star change
Really? I was way off then
Standing up and folding gang
He box says "for normal people minning is like 35k/h in MLM" like it is a good example. MLM becomes not afk to get this rate. 35k/h for low effort but not afk is insanely bad. 370hours for a 99 is bonkers.
Unfortunately until they fix the overwhelmingly rampant botting problem they can't buff any gathering merthods like blast mine, hard to find a bot there that isn't over 20m xp.
with the 2handed axe you would asume it be better at larger trees. and the normal axe at smaller trees.
or that you use the 2handed axe to cut tree into large logs witch you could then chop into normal logs.
how you in real life have a choping block with you cut the wood smaller.
seeing the guests i know a lot of hot takes incoming
3:44:20 @hebox youre god damn right time isnt real
Holy fuck this is the one
My low effort star mining with 86 is only about 18k xp per hr on average. The afk time is less than 25 minutes I don't think any layer lasts that long. The xp per hour is lower the lower tier of the star but afk increases. Also sometimes u make it to a star and it despawns before full time during the end of the 2 hour window.
Could you tell me why you’re deleting my comment
Anyone know who he's talking about at 4:42? I can't make it out
Rank 2 Ironman. DKHo
Your opinions are very gatekeepe amd elitist. I don't see any push back for updates and plugins that help high level skilling. Menu entry swapper, markers and modified shift clicking should not exist if we care about xp rates ant challange of the game.
Did you just accuse us of gatekeeping and then immediately gatekeep in the same comment? Lmao
@@Saedertook a few rereads but i dont think thats what hes trying to say
@@Saeder not at all. I might not been clear. To clarify - don't understand how you don't want to make skilling esier but approve of menu entry swapper etc.
these rambles are amazing don't get me wrong, i was getting elitist vibes at points from both of these guys (especially during the gnome cube convo) , i just hate the "since i suffered u should as well" sentiment, you mentioned adding the gnome cube but not changing the log+knife method and he was against it, game needs to evolve at a point, make these methods more accessible or remove them since they are technically "bugs". Keep up the good work man, love watching these rambles @@Saeder
On the gnome cube topic,
Speaking as someone interested in tick manip methods but bad at them.
I found it frustrating whenever I would screw up knife log, because I would end up having to bank.
I'm not against keeping a starter for the 3t cycle 2 clicks, (like knife log) but it would be nice if there also wasn't a chance i'd have to go bank again if I'm too slow.
I think the reduced exp rate is enough punishment
its so crazy to listen to this circle of end game skillers talk about how it's good for the game to be worse, so they can be more impressed with themselves .
if jagex catered to these 100s of people instead of the hundreds of thousands of people who are casual, theyre greifing their own game.
W gnomecube, W saebae here, L elegy
They just have a different view of what the game should be and what makes the game fun and that opinion is just as valid as anyone else's despite being in the minority.
We have to listen to everyone so we can make compromises that cater to a wider audience of players. We saw what happened with RS3 when they started adding these things that osrs players are proposing now and I'm not talking about EOC.
just add a fletch option to logs
RE gnome cube discussion - wouldnt it be better if there were skilling methods that were engaging, flow based, repetitive, rewarding for mastery IE sepulcure that don't involve interrupting an action
just make stars drop star chunks that require a chisel 🤷♂
Nobody gonna mention how wiping habits were a regular discussion topic within Hexis?
Why do you keep deleting my comment lol
someone pls reply letting me know if they talk about Jagex releasing updates in multiple parts (Example: Forestry p1 & p2) & if so please time stamp. Sorry I just do not have 4 hours to listen…
literally timestamps in the desc
In what world is "normal" woodcutting 100k xp per hour?
In HLC made up world where forestry is 100k/hr and no effort.
Redwoods are 60-70k/hr. And forestry is 70-90k/hr and far more attention involved. It's very well placed ATM, with EHP being 200k/hr or even more. Hell 1.5t teaks beats forester's best rates from the moment you can do it.
comment
people are so livid... because it's so silly... there really is no need. Tick manip is also for a niche community... imagine fucking it up for them? lol...
Think this episode really suffers from having no opposite viewpoint. Having to listen in chunks of 20 minutes or so to not lose my mind over hearing no opposition toward any ideas.
Did you watch the whole episode? There obviously wasn't a huge pushback on most things since they're all skillers with similar mindsets but they definitely offered a lot of different viewpoints
Man didnt listen long enough to get to gnome cube
I felt like a lot of the cast was sae bae getting disagreed with lol
This idea that we shouldn't change training methods that people have already been enjoying is seriously flawed. If we followed this logic we'd still have unidentified herbs. We'd still be burying our dragon bones at the bank because altars are easyScape. Forget 4 tick granite, when I started in RSC we power mines iron and it was one click per attempt to get the ore. Most of these modern methods were never even possible when I first started playing in classic. If Jagex flowed this logic of not changing training methods just because a minority of the player base enjoy them, then not only would 4 tick granite not exist, neither would Runescape.
it's amazing how many QoL updates to this game are just fixing bizarre design decisions made by 3 dudes who really liked DnD and didn't think anyone would ever level a skill above like 70
"200m RC is "so free" lmao. These guys are so out of touch..
Did you not listen to the context around that comment?
Yeah the context is it was less "free" then before. Still makes no sense lol. Not in anyway more free. @@benjamin-mh3fw
"If you're into 200 mils, rc is currently pretty free". Compare the rc xp rate for those mains who now get 300k xp/hr with lava runners to those who used to get 70k xp/hr doing solo lavas before runners became a thing. It's 4 times faster. Idk how that isn't "free" in that sense. Of course, to most players that is nonsense, but they specifically stated for people going for 200m. So you're still missing the context. I actually think he box is a very aware skiller who shouldn't just be considered "a delusional elitist" @@BewilderedAsshat
Nobody's getting 300k exp/hr lol. Runners have been a thing forever...@@whyaretheseathing
May I refer to he box jonge's/JCW's speedrun? They both achieve 300k rc xp/hr with 4 runners. No one used to do that. So I assume that's what they mean with rc getting easier @@BewilderedAsshat
Bruh
AE has had such bad takes for so long now that almost everyone has just tuned him out. This just solidifies that
1:26:50 regarding hotkeys for prayers
rs3 has that! it's amazIng, I love it, and I wish osrs had it
I really don't see the big issue with it, it's NOT a slippery slope to eoc, it's just assigning keys to existing actions in game
It would make a lot of the games current PvM skill ridiculously easy
A great person to listen to and a dude that acts like f2p is something anyone should care about
Unlucky
I really want to listen to he box and really dont want to listen to autumnellegy, so conflicted on if I should listen to this one
@@sawyerwelden7929 I'm just gonna sit this one out unfort
Love your casts but damn no one cares about the cube bro you can hear the guests just wanting you to move on
Afk boss methods ? Lol there’s quite a difference bossing and raids actually take skill and skilling you click a tree or rock
Thats the thing though. Getting max efficient hour played exp rates at skilling and maintaining it IS very hard. Theres lots of people who derive enjoyment from achieving that.
You can say combat is easy - just afk NMZ or sand crabs, but obviously raids and bosses show that combat CAN be very difficult.
@@shasan2393 that’s basically comparing speed runner community to the max efficient exp rate community both are a similar size community . One thing there tho you practice max exp rate for 2-6 hours and you’ll have it down , speed running pvm there’s always something more to learn . I think majority of the RuneScape community leans more to pvm than skilling due to the fact that there’s always something more challenging to learn about it
I think the point of Elegy's tweet was to better show people how ridiculous it would be to make everything idle by using pvm as the example instead of skilling like the original tweet.
@@chriscohen9559 yeah i never read the tweet never been on Twitter before
He box jonge has even worse takes than Sae bae
Altscape is an absolute joke and is a lot of why playing a main is a laughable concept in 2023