My thoughts: Everything mentioned in video EXCEPT recently Goten & Trunks did refer to Gohan's Ultimate Power as "transformation" when sparring with him on Beerus' Planet in the Dragon Ball Super Manga. However, there's still the obvious point to consider that Goten & Trunks were only simply naming it for ease (and to please the Fans by using the word 'Ultimate'). They don't really understand WHAT the Power is or how it works - they just know Gohan gets alot stronger. By ACTUAL definition of the word "Transformation" or "Form", even KAIOKEN falls under real-life definition. But, by DRAGON BALL DEFINITION, Kaioken is not a new Form/Trandformation. So, we can clearly see Gohan does NOT transform in the Dragon Ball sense because he's simply maxing out his own dormant power. So he's simply himself... just stronger with bigger muscles and a slight hair modification (for differentiation/marketing let's be honest). Yet, no more different to Kaioken from Base Goku. Thus, making it his regular body have Ultimate POWER not Ultimate "Form". Plus all information given in video supports this. But you guys let me know your thoughts. I'd love to hear! Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video, hit the Like and Subscribe... and turn on those notifications! All Super Thanks donations welcome or to my Patreon so UA-cam doesn't take any of it www.Patreon.com/ScholarVerse
What you explained in the video made a lot of sense. I agree with all of it, at first, I was only using the bang as an indicator like everyone else. I always love it when there's consistency even when it's minor. Just a grammar tip: the word _alot_ should be correctly spelled as the phrase _a lot_ not a single compound word.
First off this is a great video because I never knew about the eye lines. For my head canon was that Gohan from the Buu Saga had his full potential unlocked as in everything a Saiyan could ever be (at the time SS3). If you were to think about how Gohan as a theoretical SS3 before becoming Ultimate, he would at least be around the same level or less than the Ultimate form and with massive stamina drain. The Ritual I believe was to cram that SS3 power into his base form by adding the multiplier properties of the SS3 form (his full potential) into his base form. Now since the 400x multiplier is already in use during the Ultimate form, if he transforms into any of the SS forms, he wouldn’t be able to gain anymore multipliers from SS, only the stamina drain. Which is why Elder Kai said SS is useless. Again my head cannon
"He doesn't need to go super saiyan" my ass, if gohan could go super saiyan he would instead of risking a fight that if lost could lead to the destruction of the universe because he isnt stupid, stop meatriding goha. Ultimate/potential unleashed literally draws out the max power gohan can have at that moment, and beast is just an asspull
Always hated how they handled this in super. I thought the concept was gohan’s natural power was more than a transformation would grant him. He’s naturally this powerful and this is just that power unleashed.
Exactly, initially in Z I thought the Ultimate state was base gohan with all of his potential present when powered up which makes him on par if not above ssj3 goku. Now in Super it's shown as a transformation and is stacked or comes after the ssj transformation.
I always saw it as this is his full power ie ssj2 unlocked in his base without the stamina and energy waste issues And iam sure that's what toriyama wanted ultimate to be at the time
@@terrencepoinsett4169yeah alright I get you. What i think is actually kinda boring is making up a different unique color coded transformation for every saiyan and ass pulling a new reason why some bullshit is something only they can do because of blank trait or retconning the mechanics of a transformation to retroactively make the character dumb af
It's probably that ssj, and his ultimate potential are two separate branches of power. Beast is more than likely the real combination of both. Like for goku and vegeta they have ssj and god. But they combine them in ssjblue.
When gohan asked the Elder Kai how to use his new powers elder Kai told him to just go ssj and then ultimate gohan was born. Also the superhero movie just straight up doubles down on potential unleashed being a transformation.
According to what Elder Kai said that Gohan's ultimate form is supposed to draw all of his latent potential to the maximum. At one point Elder Kai even suggested that Gohan could do that Super Saiyan thing and stack on top of his awakened abilities. Which if I'm being honest I think that's what happened to GT Gohan during Dragon Ball GT when he fought against Omega Shenlong.
He never implied it could be stacked Gohan asked how can he become the ultimate warrior right after the ritual and the elder kai told him to try going super saiyan basically telling gohan to transform into the ultimate warrior
@@lotograves even in Z it was a transformation Gohan asked the elder kai how can he become the ultimate warrior he responds by telling him to try powering up like he’s going super saiyan basically saying he has to transform into the ultimate warrior and Gt completely neglects ultimate its not even clear if he can still do it 😂
Because I watch only the dub I had originally assumed that the Ultimate form had replaced his Super Saiyan ability because of Elder Kai's line "Do that Super Saiyan thing." I also think it's pretty poor writing with Super that Gohan keeps losing his power because of not training.
Gohan only lost power at start of super sfter that he started training he was training while uni 6 vs 7 arc and even during goku black arc and lastly at end of super, he can keep up with ssb with that training!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm going to take it one step further and say that eye "style" is unique to Goku and his kids. Yeah other people had partial outline and other people also have the full outline of the eyes, but with it changing between partial and full line I've noticed only Goku and his offsprings have that unique trait as saiyajins. Vegeta's and trunk's eyes were always fully outlined.
This form always bothered me because we never got any idea if this was possible during the run of GT because Gohan went Super Saiyan for his battles. The ultimate form always seemed like a foundation for Gohan to use after not training for a while, but his body could still reach a serious level through rage or absorbing the power from another source like a friend who is far stronger. For me it would've been easier to show a different hairstyle or eyes like Super Saiyan 4 to show there was something different about the power and if any variant of Super Saiyan was possible, then add the golden color or something else like orange to show the merging of powers.
Why? ultimate gohan is literally just a new base for Gohan using his full potential like when guru unlocked his potential :/ it’s what made it superior to ssj3. There was no stamina drawback.
@@DarkEclipse23 That is true. I just always wondered if someone went through a lot fo training to reach a serious level like SS3 and then the world was at peace for so long, yet the body could be pushed to a greater point if needed. The Ultimate form just seemed like mixing the best of SS forms with the base power to maximize energy production. Which section did you question? I have other ideas and want to make sure you get the right ones.
Saiyan Scholar, it was said that in GT, Gohan did NOT possess the Ultimate form. However, in the original trailer for Battle of Gods, he had transformed into Ultimate then stacked Super Saiyan on top of it. Although not present in the movie, it is still present in other Dragon Ball files, either in video games or otherwise.
If Gohan actually kept up with his training I believe he would have unlocked a ssj - hybrid type of transformation different from a normal full blooded saiyan , showing just what a half breed is capable of. Or something cause I swear the writers don't like Gohan he such a square until he goes mystic.
I like that fanfiction from Dragon Absalon were it seems he draws energy from the planet so depending on what planet he's on he could be more powerful though he didn't seem to realize he even had that ability draw energy from the planet like some sort of human spirit bomb or even maybe a sage I guess if he was fighting ninjas man cant wait for new material from Dragon Absalon it's been to long
they don't even understand what the ultimate "form" was supposed to be. ultimate goha nmwas just potential unleashed gohan without the need to go ssj since he was already at full power. it SHOULD NOT have been a form in the first place
@@SoaringxDragon ultra instict Is explained to be a form only for Goku because he as a sayian to use the technique tranaforms himself. Gohan was Just a fully unlocked Power boost, no Need to go ssj or and other form any more.
@@Andrea-dw1ps the whole premise behind ultra instinct is the autonomous movement of the body without conscious thought. Beerus nor Roshi transform when they use it yet for Goku it’s turned into a transformation. It’s the exact same principle of potential unleashed becoming a transformation for Gohan when both things are more states of being.
I think that the canon was sort of change to make gohans ultimate form his strongest transformation because that’s his potential fully unleashed and his ssj transformations is based more on his anger or at least that’s my head canon
In battle of gods after Akira was told that this was wrong they actually changed it. Then afterwards I guess Akira just liked the idea of him going ssj again
I havent finished the buu saga or watched dbs super hero but maybe Gohan literally stacks super saiyan on his ultimate form and his ultimate form is sort of like a new base form that can go super Lemme know if im spittin balls rn Also i havent finished the vid yet so idk if he says this 🥶🥶🥶
More like ssj2 stacked onto ultimate since beast form has that ssj2-esque design as well as those electric sparkles, heck even it's transformation sequence is the same as that of super saiyan 2
IIRC, the original version of Battle of Gods is supposed to feature Super Saiyan Ultimate, which's why we got the SSJU Gohan card for the DBS card game, but they removed it for some reason. Would've liked to see how long it would last against Beerus. Beast does seem to take its place. It's possible Toriyama ditched the whole SSJU idea in favor of something different/better. When Goku sensed Gohan going Beast in the manga, he wondered if it was SSJ2 or 3, suggesting a similarity.
In terms of Super Hero, I have a theory that Beast Mode is Super Saiyan applied to the Ultimate form, similar to Super Saiyan Blue being Super Saiyan applied to Super Saiyan God; an Ultimate Super Saiyan if you will. Either that, or Beast is the Super Saiyan 2 equivalent to Ultimate.
I'd like to say I remember in the 90s. When it came out that ultimate power sealed his super syia-jin form and wouldn't become any stronger than whatever His top potential is, that's why goku. Decided to pass on it because it would limit his power. And that's not what goku is about. And I remember in the later 90s. Why people having a big deal about GT was because he turned super saia-jin and shouldn't have been able to do. It should have been sealed. And it just felt that GT was just breaking more and more rules. I remember when I saw the teaser for resurrection f. And it showed gohan, not turning super saia-jin. And I got so happy saying to myself. Oh my god, he remembered, but it didn't happen in the final product...
I always figured that there was an eventual growth as Saiyans gain powers left and right. It would've been easier to make it another color and aura shape to show the mastering of all forms. At least Piccolo was given justice with his orange form in that you know what level he reached.
You can see the eye art when Gohan powers up in resurrection f so Goku can sense his energy. He combined it with super saiyan right there. But he couldn't keep it up.
@@capo900 rewatch the scene. And it explains why goku was able to sense his energy when he couldn't sense any of their energy before including frieza's who was far stronger.
If only Gohan would let Old Kai draw more power out, if I remember correctly, he kept pulling power out of Gohan which is why he went longer thsn intended.
dragon ball super turning it into a transformation as if we are playing some video game bullshit. You know what that means, Mr Scholar? It means you have to make a video on False Super Saiyan. Otherwise GT characters won't make it into the launch of Sparking Zero.
In the original version of the Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods film, Gohan accessed his Ultimate state, and then transformed even further into a Super Saiyan, using the form to combat Beerus. Due to this, Ultimate Gohan was given a card that could transform into Super Saiyan in the Dragon Ball Super Card Game.
That’s not what happened. Toriyama just forgot about Gohan’s ultimate form and so gave him Super Saiyan instead. People watched the trailer and didn’t like it so the animators changed the hair color to black to resemble his ultimate form and gave us an excuse that it was “an animation error” and that it was supposed to be Gohan’s ultimate form all along
@yancgc5098 so there is a card game. And this card was made. Last minute it was pulled but some were distributed so it does exist. Don't be the guy who didn't know, so it isn't true. I can show your the card.
The only inconsistency in GT for me is, that when baby was seeking out the greatest warrior he chose vegeta instead of gohan. If gohan truly never stopped training and was even able to stack super saiyan on top of ultimate, I doubt vegeta would have been comparable to gohans power. I don't like ultimate as it's portrayled in super as another kind of transformation and give credits to GT in that regard. Still gohan being able to stack super saiyan on top of ultimate feels somewhat sad? His ultimate form showing off his more human side of things, perfectly resonates with his personality and super saiyan on top of it kinda destroys this nice symbolism.
Tbf gt gohan trained as ssj more his life which is why and only used ultimate so least he eventually lost it since ultimate require his innate potential to be unleashed with peace of mind training as ssj (wrathful warriors) destroy his potential plus vegeta had goku for training in 10 yr gap gohan seems to train alone so.... I like to think baby took ober vegeta because it was easier to bring out his fp than gohan since he had it hid himself most of time Plus baby is a parasite a tough pure saiyan body would be more compatible
Gt aint canon no way plus gohan wasnt even a fighter at the time he’s actually worse than super gohan 😂also Ultimate always been a transformation hence why the elder kai told him to try going super saiyan to unlock it the fans just took stuff out of context and thought he was in base
Maybe when gohan raises his ki which auto triggers ultimate (elder kai said think of it kinda like super saiyan) so maybe he does that but applys the tingle🤨
GT Gohan is pretty cool ngl. Its pretty obvious on if hes ultimate or not, the hair ain't the indicator, its the eyes. If the eyes are filled then hes ultimate, if its halfway then hes base. Super definitely confuses the audience because they do both whenever hes ultimate or not, while super hero fixes it.
@@samburgerwithcheeze8145 and When they say that ?💀 nothing implies he was in ultimate nor can he stack them thats headcanon lil bro but Gt gohan is what super gohan would be if he really stopped fighting 😂💯 weak asf
@@capo900 1) Ultimate Gohan uses his super Saiyan eyes and not the eyes he usually has. The super hero movie literally shows the difference kiddo. It's not head canon, it's the fact you don't pay attention and blame everyone who does is making it up. 2) In GT, Gohan didn't stop training, he literally says he trains occasionally. Ultimate is his base form because he never gets to super Gohan level where he prioritizes studying to the point he gets skinny. Gohan in GT base form is ultimate because his eyes aren't like Goku's and gotens in base like he was originally in the buu saga, they change when he goes ultimate. This is what happens when you go off assumptions and don't do your research, this is why I don't take your criticism seriously because you don't even know what your talking about
@@samburgerwithcheeze8145you still making up facts to fit ya narrative 💀 im not even gone finish the rest google is free his eyes never changed tf you talking about either way Gt gohan never used ultimate thats headcanon 😂 btw he was a terrible example you just made ultimate ssj sound weak asf
What's funny about this video coming out today is how after watching Yesterday's video about Super Saiyan 2, I saw a video saying about how sorely underestimated GT Gohan is, and now today you consistently highlighted how broken he was by stating that he was going Super Saiyan while Ultimate throughout GT and my mind is blown. Like GOD DAMN, that's glorious. Ultimate Super Saiyan Gohan was no match for Omega Shenron, that's INSANE. The video I saw after your Super Saiyan 2 video yesterday was this one: ua-cam.com/video/UGfeFTfYR9Y/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
@@ohhellwhereami2574 In Baby's case strength isn't so much the issue as not wanting to kill the host, which I FULLY appreciate because it shows strategy. Super 17 using 2 existing models of power and Myuu's knowledge of Goku's strength helps show how capable Gero and Myuu are as scientists. The Shadow Dragons are a fantastic concept regardless.
Possibly a true combination unlike just stacking them together. Like Gohan being ultimate and then transforming into a super saiyan could be equivalent to Goku stacking kaioken on top of blue, but beast would be the equivalent of blue being the combination of super saiyan and god ki or 4 being the combination of super saiyan and great ape.
Dang! I hadn't noticed! I didn't realise how consistent they were with it! Cool to know. And also agree that DBS makes the relation with Ultimate pretty weird. But, DBS, no surprise there.
I've always looked at the Ultimate power-up as having two levels, mirroring Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, but with higher multipliers. Level 1 being Base x 500 and Level 2 being Base x 1,000. When Old Kai tells Gohan to power-up, he goes from Base to Level 1 Ultimate. He stays that way until going face-to-face with Super Buu. He then reaches Level 2 Ultimate. His power clearly increases between those two points in time as indicated by Piccolo's dialogue. During the Fusion Saga, I believe that the Ultimate power-up overrides Super Saiyan as a whole. In GT, we know Gohan continues to train. I think his Level 2 Ultimate power eventually becomes his Base and he's able to use Super Saiyan on top of that. Here are some numbers. Obviously, not official, but just to explain where I'm coming from... FUSION SAGA (Z) Base Gohan: 7.5 billion (after having his potential unlocked) Ultimate Gohan, Level 1: 3.75 trillion Ultimate Gohan, Level 2: 7.5 trillion BLACK STAR DRAGON BALL SAGA (GT) Base Gohan: 7.5 trillion Super Saiyan Gohan: 375 trillion When it comes to Super, I have no clue what's going on.
Ultimate Gohan: Brings out the maximum of his latent potential as a hybrid saiyan, WITHOUT activating S-Cells... hence much calmer, less violent, etc. It's the "human" side transformation, because he isn't using Saiyan-inherent techniques. Beast Gohan: When the S-Cells in Ultimate Gohan activate. Essentially Super Saiyan of ultimate Gohan. Just like SSB is Super Saiyan of SSG (to be fair, the Super term in SSG is a misnomer, since its just Saiyan that can use God Ki... which is why SSG always looks like a red colouration of the base forms, not the super saiyans).
thought it was already said that he COULD go mystic/potential unleashed ontop of super saiyan but there was no real need on it? due to mystic being legit just ALL of his power and super saiyan being just a static multiplier
Scholar my G. i might have been a 10 year old or sum, and ofcourse open to Opposition. but According to memory....Elder Kai told Gohan to TRY to Transfrom into a SSJ, and when he did he went Ultimate instead, now i gotta be specific and say i only watched the Anime, but i feel the Point still stands
I love the passion to theory crafting, and we all have to admit, this was left vague by the original author, and every author after didn't know what to do with it. My head canon is that it's his "FULL POTENTIAL" including Super Saiyan forms. Thematically Super Saiyan is something with you that you can tap into, it's apart of their potential. I think Gohan can access ssj, but with no power gained. My reason for that being, why wouldn't he use that against buu. He was ready to fuse with Goku, but not willing to try ult +ssj2? Seems weird. I agree that it super fumbled it, I wish it replaced his forms instead of being a form itself. Beast reminds me of true UI in that his emotions are the key to his power.
Needless to say I wish gohan was able achieve mystic 2 or even a potential mystic 3 in some way then and there he’d be the ultimate hybrid of the saiyan race in my book
I don't why but my headcanon keeps telling me that beast form is just ssj2 stacked onto ultimate since beast form has that ssj2-esque design as well as those electric sparkles, heck even it's transformation sequence is the same as that of super saiyan 2
I'm kinda curious if maybe you're confusing ultimate with SSJ4. It seems to me that ultimate's potential-drawing whatever handwavy business is not the multiplier from SSJ/2, unlike how SSJ4 seems to have been painted to do the both of those at once, but i might be misunderstanding how SSJ4 is supposed to work. Still standing by what i said about beast being a soft boot
Yo honestly I'm trying to think how stromg a super saiyan stacked on ultimate could be and honestly I don't think I'm smart enough to think of an answer
Completely agree with everything in the video. Stupid Super.... That Battle of Gods trailer really made me think Gohan could stack Super Saiyan on it. But at least now we know there is a full. Transformation. Super should have done that instead. Kept showing the broken eyes for his Super Saiyan forms so that when he finally got his full lines for Ultimate they could then show him stacking on it. Like If they had shown his training in some slice of life arcs... Like bruh that Vegeta clone stuff could have easily been Goten, Trunks and Gohan on an adventure. Where they see he's still the superhero he's always been to the whole dang universe. I still think.... He started the Revolution against The Emperor of the Universe with nobody to back him up except Krillin. He deserves to end it. Preferably in Great Saiyaman form because he has no limit with that costume on. (If anybody stacked Super Saiyan on Ultimate it's SUPER GREAT SAIYAMAN F-A-X). Look at that feat on Watagash. Great Saiyaman is his true Ultimate form. Ultimate is his base. 😂
Isn't the answer no. The Elder Kai says Gohan has access to all of his power without the need for transformation. Thats maximum Gohan baseform + maximum SSJ multiplier+ Oozaru this is the reason for the power jump. ( low estimation 2×-base, 100×-SSJ, 10×-Oozaru= 2000x increase. Goku around 400x.) When it comes to Beast that seem to be more in line with Broly's wrathful form. A controllable rage boost.
I believe ultimate Gohan was his full potential at the time it was awakened so going super saiyan couldn't have made him any stronger, as he got older his potential increased even more therefore super saiyan would draw out more power (just not 50X) obviously he lost both ultimate and SSJ2 durinf ROF but that doesnt affect his potential, later on in TOP arc he reawakened ultimate, its now his full potential at that time which was stronger than Pre-TOP Blue Goku, it stays this way upto super hero, where his potential grew even more but he never lost it so he still is only blue Goku level, the rage boost plus extra potential allowed Beast Gohan to happen.
I guess it's just that Ultimate+SSJ would be such a broken multiplier that they don't know what to do with it. How strong would that make him? Like, 100 times stronger than base Goku fighting seriously in the current arc? Maybe even 10 SSJ? Equal to SSJ3?
wasnt the only reason he was in ssj in the battle of gods trailer and in GT because they forgot about ultimate as a form? which for battle of gods full release they corrected it?
Beast was just ssj 2 and rage stacked on ultimate. I dont know why a lot of people thought god ki had anything to do with it. The artist just decided to depict him the way they did and they probably were influenced by ultra instincts look.
I alaays thought that Ultimate replaces SSJ, as the power was comparable to Goku's SSJ3 in the Buu saga. Afterwards, he could improve on the Ultimate power to brcome stronger, instead of activating SSJ power levels
It was never Mystic to begin with, it was Ultimate from the start. The name Mystic was just a name made by us the fans cause it sounds cooler. The name Ultimate was always official from then to now. Ultimate even had it's official mention in the DBS Manga after the Superhero Arc on Beerus's planet where Goten and Trunks said to Gohan "Hey that's not fair using Ultimate on us!" while Gohan was confused at what they were talking about cause he himself never named his form but Goten and Trunks did. And don't forget games, all the games Gohan was always called Ultimate Gohan. So in other words: Mystic Gohan is a fan name Ultimate Gohan is the official name
The reason Ultimate cant stack Super Saiyan is becuase the form mainly uses Human power and Humans cant go super saiyan so the multiplier wouldnt affect the hybrids human battle power. It would only multiply the saiyan battle power. How GT Gohan managed to pull this off is a mystery. But Its possible may not have stacked his power that much if it only amped his lower percentage Saiyan power in the Ultimate form(lets say Ultimate is 90% human 10% Saiyan for example).
Well ultimate is meant to be his latent access state. But dude its absolutely useless to go ssj on top of ultimate because he already will go to his full strength state. The one thing he could do is learn something like kaioken which would stack on top of it. But now the beast form is meant to represent what happens if he did stack ssj along with rage boost on top of the ultimate form. Because i believe thats what whis was telling beerus!
Super has kind of ruined Ultimate by turning it into a transformation. And it even requires Gohan to be at peak stamina to use according to Super Hero, negating the entire purpose of the power-up to begin with as a way for Gohan to use his full power without the stamina drain that comes from using SSJ2 or 3. It also makes no sense for Goten and Trunks to name it 'Ultimate' after it has already been shown to not be Gohan's ultimate form or anywhere near his full power. Here's Ultimate, his Penultimate form!' Rather than stacking super saiyan on top of Ultimate, I'd have liked to have seen Gohan use the kaioken. Just the 1st level would have put him at the same level powerwise against Buutenks as he had been against regular Super Buu. It would have made a lot of sense for Goku to teach Gohan the kaioken as a way of preparing Gohan for unlocking super saiyan during the Android and Cell arcs, and that would have made all the difference against Buu. It's really stupid how Goku never teaches anyone any of these techniques that would be really useful for all of the Z-fighters to know, not even his own kids. The fusion dance seems to be the first and only technique he ever taught to someone else. I bet Gohan even learned the kahemameha wave on his own and not from Goku actively attempting to teach it. Everyone else learned it on their own easily enough.
Only issue with this is how is “Ultimate Super Saiyan Gohan” not at least as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku or Vegeta, GT Gohan was done dirty especially if he never quit training.
Now the question is. How close is Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga to Beerus? He is already MUCH stronger than SSJ 3 Goku in his ultimate form, beating the piss out of Super Buu, so we have someone who is an indeterminant amount stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, who can then multiply their power by 100x if he went SSJ2. I'm telling you Cell Saga Gohan and Ultimate Buu saga Gohan is so much stronger than we give him credit for. Sad that they have to nerf him constantly for plot. It is possible for SSJ 2 Cell games Gohan to be more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan even more powerful still. The only question is, why didn't he at least try the super stack against Buutenks
Stack on ultimate form wouldn't do anything his ultimate form alone was getting bodied by a yadrat in the tournament of power and couldn't do nothing against toppo and barely won against dyspo without frieza help
Let’s be honest gt gohan wasn’t ultimate ultimate was a form 10x stronger than ssj so it makes sense that gohan would have to go ssj-2 to bring out his power then become ultimate he couldn’t stack ssj on his ultimate form if he could his ssj1-2 would be freaking ultra ego and instict lvl the reason gohan kept going ssj was because he lost his ultimate power the same way he lost his full ssj2 power from cell saga to buu saga same with gt gohan was at Least late 30s maybe early 40s by Gt with that continuity means last time he went ultimate was when he was 16-17 makes sense that he would lose the form if 20+ yrs go by makes sense because he already was losing his ultimate form only a few years after buu saga when he attacked berus we just gotta be real our boy lost his sauce until super hero he was down bad
Ssj is on top of ultimate makes no sense at all. It makes more sense that ultimate is a ssj transformation in itself but without the hair turning gold and much bigger power up.
as much as i like some of the lore, forms and characters from GT it is not mainline cannon. (base kid goku > omega shenron > ssj4 adult goku?) also a training ultimate gohan who can THEN stack SSJ1 and 2 is weaker than vegeta with only SSJ1 and 2? (baby) so gohan in the buu arc was just stupid? or was for some reason choosing not to transform to save the ENTIRE UNIVERSE? same thing with the TOP he was just choosing not to transform when the entire universe was at stake? is he stupid or heartless?
I disagree about stacking… or it’s terrible writing. I think it’s one or the other. In Super where he transforms from SSJ2 to Ultimate makes more sense. My reasoning is if he could always stack SSJ on top of Ultimate, then WHY didn’t he stack that against Butenks? He was getting his butt handed to him against Butenks and was about to get killed. IF he could stack SSJ on top on ultimate… but didn’t need it then… well HE WOOULD HAVE NEEDED IT… because his life and the world was in endangered. I think he didn’t because they are not stackable. He would be weaker if he went SSJ2. Also GT is non-canon anymore, ha!
It actually…literally… means he can’t “stack” the power ups. Super Saiyan doesn’t stack with ultimate. He turns Super Saiyan first, then turns “ultimate” because Super Saiyan is a lower power level. This I a reach with no proof. And GT isn’t canon so that’s out. The bang is always consistent with the ultimate form. Especially in canon. The rest is an assumption.
no, no nononono. this is all wrong. ultimate gohan IS gohan trying to turn super saiyan. that's exactly how he unlocked the form. it replaces his super saiyan forms.
My thoughts: Everything mentioned in video EXCEPT recently Goten & Trunks did refer to Gohan's Ultimate Power as "transformation" when sparring with him on Beerus' Planet in the Dragon Ball Super Manga. However, there's still the obvious point to consider that Goten & Trunks were only simply naming it for ease (and to please the Fans by using the word 'Ultimate').
They don't really understand WHAT the Power is or how it works - they just know Gohan gets alot stronger. By ACTUAL definition of the word "Transformation" or "Form", even KAIOKEN falls under real-life definition. But, by DRAGON BALL DEFINITION, Kaioken is not a new Form/Trandformation. So, we can clearly see Gohan does NOT transform in the Dragon Ball sense because he's simply maxing out his own dormant power. So he's simply himself... just stronger with bigger muscles and a slight hair modification (for differentiation/marketing let's be honest). Yet, no more different to Kaioken from Base Goku. Thus, making it his regular body have Ultimate POWER not Ultimate "Form". Plus all information given in video supports this. But you guys let me know your thoughts. I'd love to hear!
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What you explained in the video made a lot of sense. I agree with all of it, at first, I was only using the bang as an indicator like everyone else. I always love it when there's consistency even when it's minor. Just a grammar tip: the word _alot_ should be correctly spelled as the phrase _a lot_ not a single compound word.
First off this is a great video because I never knew about the eye lines. For my head canon was that Gohan from the Buu Saga had his full potential unlocked as in everything a Saiyan could ever be (at the time SS3). If you were to think about how Gohan as a theoretical SS3 before becoming Ultimate, he would at least be around the same level or less than the Ultimate form and with massive stamina drain. The Ritual I believe was to cram that SS3 power into his base form by adding the multiplier properties of the SS3 form (his full potential) into his base form. Now since the 400x multiplier is already in use during the Ultimate form, if he transforms into any of the SS forms, he wouldn’t be able to gain anymore multipliers from SS, only the stamina drain. Which is why Elder Kai said SS is useless. Again my head cannon
"He doesn't need to go super saiyan" my ass, if gohan could go super saiyan he would instead of risking a fight that if lost could lead to the destruction of the universe because he isnt stupid, stop meatriding goha. Ultimate/potential unleashed literally draws out the max power gohan can have at that moment, and beast is just an asspull
Always hated how they handled this in super. I thought the concept was gohan’s natural power was more than a transformation would grant him. He’s naturally this powerful and this is just that power unleashed.
Exactly, initially in Z I thought the Ultimate state was base gohan with all of his potential present when powered up which makes him on par if not above ssj3 goku. Now in Super it's shown as a transformation and is stacked or comes after the ssj transformation.
If they stayed with that natural power stuff, he'd be the most boring looking saiyan. No sell😂
@@terrencepoinsett4169 TRUE DAT😂
I always saw it as this is his full power ie ssj2 unlocked in his base without the stamina and energy waste issues
And iam sure that's what toriyama wanted ultimate to be at the time
@@terrencepoinsett4169yeah alright I get you. What i think is actually kinda boring is making up a different unique color coded transformation for every saiyan and ass pulling a new reason why some bullshit is something only they can do because of blank trait or retconning the mechanics of a transformation to retroactively make the character dumb af
“Unique identity as a warior….. and a toy.” 😂
It's probably that ssj, and his ultimate potential are two separate branches of power. Beast is more than likely the real combination of both. Like for goku and vegeta they have ssj and god. But they combine them in ssjblue.
Beast = innate potential of gohan + his wrath boost on top of it to made his ki rogue wild than anyone just like his youth ssj 2 against cell
When gohan asked the Elder Kai how to use his new powers elder Kai told him to just go ssj and then ultimate gohan was born. Also the superhero movie just straight up doubles down on potential unleashed being a transformation.
good point
But it's all speculation hehehe that scholar talking
According to what Elder Kai said that Gohan's ultimate form is supposed to draw all of his latent potential to the maximum.
At one point Elder Kai even suggested that Gohan could do that Super Saiyan thing and stack on top of his awakened abilities.
Which if I'm being honest I think that's what happened to GT Gohan during Dragon Ball GT when he fought against Omega Shenlong.
He didn't say he could stack it, just that he should bring it out by doing what he would do to achieve super saiyan
In the Super Manga against Granolah, Goku stacked Blue on top of Ultra Instinct.
@@everettjohnson9374i feel like it would be cool if he manage to use ultimate on ssg
He never implied it could be stacked Gohan asked how can he become the ultimate warrior right after the ritual and the elder kai told him to try going super saiyan basically telling gohan to transform into the ultimate warrior
@@SRT_DREultra instinct is a technique not a form
Gohan stacking SSJ on top of Ultimate is comparable to Goku using Kaioken on top of SSJ/SSB. A power-up/booster on top of a transformation.
Just without the energy displacement dysfunction afterwards 😂
Actually no Kaioken is a technique that increases the users power , SS and Ultimate are transformations
@@capo900that only applies to the super continuity. in z and gt it's just his new base. similar to when guru unlocked it previously
@@lotograves even in Z it was a transformation Gohan asked the elder kai how can he become the ultimate warrior he responds by telling him to try powering up like he’s going super saiyan basically saying he has to transform into the ultimate warrior and Gt completely neglects ultimate its not even clear if he can still do it 😂
@@capo900The scriptwriter implied that they ignored Ultimate in GT.
Super Saiyan stacked with Ultimate sounds pretty metal.
Thank for point out the ult Gohan look. Didn't have much of a idea on telling the different
Because I watch only the dub I had originally assumed that the Ultimate form had replaced his Super Saiyan ability because of Elder Kai's line "Do that Super Saiyan thing." I also think it's pretty poor writing with Super that Gohan keeps losing his power because of not training.
Gohan only lost power at start of super sfter that he started training he was training while uni 6 vs 7 arc and even during goku black arc and lastly at end of super, he can keep up with ssb with that training!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean Dragonball is all about training and pushing yourself further. Think of Vegeta and Goku , they never stopped training.
I'm going to take it one step further and say that eye "style" is unique to Goku and his kids. Yeah other people had partial outline and other people also have the full outline of the eyes, but with it changing between partial and full line I've noticed only Goku and his offsprings have that unique trait as saiyajins. Vegeta's and trunk's eyes were always fully outlined.
Good catch
The eye lines connecting is such a subtle difference that you could be a Dragon Ball fan for decades and not even notice...like me. 😅
This form always bothered me because we never got any idea if this was possible during the run of GT because Gohan went Super Saiyan for his battles. The ultimate form always seemed like a foundation for Gohan to use after not training for a while, but his body could still reach a serious level through rage or absorbing the power from another source like a friend who is far stronger.
For me it would've been easier to show a different hairstyle or eyes like Super Saiyan 4 to show there was something different about the power and if any variant of Super Saiyan was possible, then add the golden color or something else like orange to show the merging of powers.
Why? ultimate gohan is literally just a new base for Gohan using his full potential like when guru unlocked his potential :/ it’s what made it superior to ssj3. There was no stamina drawback.
@@DarkEclipse23 That is true. I just always wondered if someone went through a lot fo training to reach a serious level like SS3 and then the world was at peace for so long, yet the body could be pushed to a greater point if needed. The Ultimate form just seemed like mixing the best of SS forms with the base power to maximize energy production.
Which section did you question? I have other ideas and want to make sure you get the right ones.
I see that as him saying that he doesn't need to go super Saiyan because he's awaken his full potential with his human / base
He doesnt need to go ssj as in he’s unlocked an even stronger and more efficient form
That extended bang killed me lol
Saiyan Scholar, it was said that in GT, Gohan did NOT possess the Ultimate form. However, in the original trailer for Battle of Gods, he had transformed into Ultimate then stacked Super Saiyan on top of it. Although not present in the movie, it is still present in other Dragon Ball files, either in video games or otherwise.
Ngl not using SSJ Ultimate vs Buutenks has got to be the STUPIDEST thing Gohan has done, if he could go SSJ Ultimate.
If Gohan actually kept up with his training I believe he would have unlocked a ssj - hybrid type of transformation different from a normal full blooded saiyan , showing just what a half breed is capable of. Or something cause I swear the writers don't like Gohan he such a square until he goes mystic.
He didn't stack it cause he had just learned it, he hadn't the time to master it
He didnt because he cant😂 Ultimate is basically his maximum power
I like that fanfiction from Dragon Absalon were it seems he draws energy from the planet so depending on what planet he's on he could be more powerful though he didn't seem to realize he even had that ability draw energy from the planet like some sort of human spirit bomb or even maybe a sage I guess if he was fighting ninjas man cant wait for new material from Dragon Absalon it's been to long
they don't even understand what the ultimate "form" was supposed to be. ultimate goha nmwas just potential unleashed gohan without the need to go ssj since he was already at full power. it SHOULD NOT have been a form in the first place
Neither should ultra instinct but Super is all about forms
@@SoaringxDragon ultra instict Is explained to be a form only for Goku because he as a sayian to use the technique tranaforms himself. Gohan was Just a fully unlocked Power boost, no Need to go ssj or and other form any more.
@@Andrea-dw1ps the whole premise behind ultra instinct is the autonomous movement of the body without conscious thought. Beerus nor Roshi transform when they use it yet for Goku it’s turned into a transformation. It’s the exact same principle of potential unleashed becoming a transformation for Gohan when both things are more states of being.
@@SoaringxDragon excerpt that Gohan altead got his potential unleashed once and It wasnt a transformation
@@Andrea-dw1ps that’s exactly the point. It’s a state of being, they shouldn’t be transformations yet Super turned them into transformations.
I think that the canon was sort of change to make gohans ultimate form his strongest transformation because that’s his potential fully unleashed and his ssj transformations is based more on his anger or at least that’s my head canon
In battle of gods after Akira was told that this was wrong they actually changed it. Then afterwards I guess Akira just liked the idea of him going ssj again
I thought beast was just Super Saiyan for Ultimate
I havent finished the buu saga or watched dbs super hero but maybe Gohan literally stacks super saiyan on his ultimate form and his ultimate form is sort of like a new base form that can go super
Lemme know if im spittin balls rn
Also i havent finished the vid yet so idk if he says this 🥶🥶🥶
I think that beast is ultimate stacked with ultimate
My thoughts exactly
More like ssj2 stacked onto ultimate since beast form has that ssj2-esque design as well as those electric sparkles, heck even it's transformation sequence is the same as that of super saiyan 2
@@darkhero792its neither its just an evolved form of ultimate
IIRC, the original version of Battle of Gods is supposed to feature Super Saiyan Ultimate, which's why we got the SSJU Gohan card for the DBS card game, but they removed it for some reason. Would've liked to see how long it would last against Beerus.
Beast does seem to take its place. It's possible Toriyama ditched the whole SSJU idea in favor of something different/better. When Goku sensed Gohan going Beast in the manga, he wondered if it was SSJ2 or 3, suggesting a similarity.
In terms of Super Hero, I have a theory that Beast Mode is Super Saiyan applied to the Ultimate form, similar to Super Saiyan Blue being Super Saiyan applied to Super Saiyan God; an Ultimate Super Saiyan if you will. Either that, or Beast is the Super Saiyan 2 equivalent to Ultimate.
I'd like to say I remember in the 90s. When it came out that ultimate power sealed his super syia-jin form and wouldn't become any stronger than whatever His top potential is, that's why goku. Decided to pass on it because it would limit his power. And that's not what goku is about. And I remember in the later 90s. Why people having a big deal about GT was because he turned super saia-jin and shouldn't have been able to do. It should have been sealed. And it just felt that GT was just breaking more and more rules. I remember when I saw the teaser for resurrection f. And it showed gohan, not turning super saia-jin. And I got so happy saying to myself. Oh my god, he remembered, but it didn't happen in the final product...
I feel like mystic should raise that bang up and when he stakes ssj on top of it it gets way spinker kinda like ssj2
I always figured that there was an eventual growth as Saiyans gain powers left and right. It would've been easier to make it another color and aura shape to show the mastering of all forms. At least Piccolo was given justice with his orange form in that you know what level he reached.
You can see the eye art when Gohan powers up in resurrection f so Goku can sense his energy. He combined it with super saiyan right there. But he couldn't keep it up.
Thats headcanon💀
@@capo900 rewatch the scene. And it explains why goku was able to sense his energy when he couldn't sense any of their energy before including frieza's who was far stronger.
I took a shot everytime you said line art and I died.
Thank Kami for dragonballs.
If only Gohan would let Old Kai draw more power out, if I remember correctly, he kept pulling power out of Gohan which is why he went longer thsn intended.
I don't think it would help, he can draw out so much
No the ritual just takes that long😂
Gohan needed training. Not another ritual to draw out his potential. He’d never be self sufficient if he depends on others to draw out his power.
Gohan needed training. Not another ritual to draw out his potential. He’d never be self sufficient if he depends on others to draw out his power.
dragon ball super turning it into a transformation as if we are playing some video game bullshit.
You know what that means, Mr Scholar? It means you have to make a video on False Super Saiyan. Otherwise GT characters won't make it into the launch of Sparking Zero.
I believe Gohan Beast is the combination of SSJ 2 + Rage + Ultimate power.
It’s like when he goes from ss2 to ultimate, he keeps the strength but goes down to base but his full strength is there like he’s warmed up
1:36 gohan really does have Ash Ketchum tier experience
In the original version of the Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods film, Gohan accessed his Ultimate state, and then transformed even further into a Super Saiyan, using the form to combat Beerus. Due to this, Ultimate Gohan was given a card that could transform into Super Saiyan in the Dragon Ball Super Card Game.
That’s not what happened. Toriyama just forgot about Gohan’s ultimate form and so gave him Super Saiyan instead. People watched the trailer and didn’t like it so the animators changed the hair color to black to resemble his ultimate form and gave us an excuse that it was “an animation error” and that it was supposed to be Gohan’s ultimate form all along
@yancgc5098 so there is a card game. And this card was made. Last minute it was pulled but some were distributed so it does exist. Don't be the guy who didn't know, so it isn't true. I can show your the card.
@@torhowell5202i just watched the movie recently 💀👎🏽
@capo900 it was taken out before the movies release. That's why the card was produced in excess. The guy who didn't know so it's not true huh.
The only inconsistency in GT for me is, that when baby was seeking out the greatest warrior he chose vegeta instead of gohan. If gohan truly never stopped training and was even able to stack super saiyan on top of ultimate, I doubt vegeta would have been comparable to gohans power.
I don't like ultimate as it's portrayled in super as another kind of transformation and give credits to GT in that regard. Still gohan being able to stack super saiyan on top of ultimate feels somewhat sad? His ultimate form showing off his more human side of things, perfectly resonates with his personality and super saiyan on top of it kinda destroys this nice symbolism.
Tbf gt gohan trained as ssj more his life which is why and only used ultimate so least he eventually lost it since ultimate require his innate potential to be unleashed with peace of mind training as ssj (wrathful warriors) destroy his potential plus vegeta had goku for training in 10 yr gap gohan seems to train alone so....
I like to think baby took ober vegeta because it was easier to bring out his fp than gohan since he had it hid himself most of time
Plus baby is a parasite a tough pure saiyan body would be more compatible
Gt aint canon no way plus gohan wasnt even a fighter at the time he’s actually worse than super gohan 😂also Ultimate always been a transformation hence why the elder kai told him to try going super saiyan to unlock it the fans just took stuff out of context and thought he was in base
Pov:Toei did it because they were lazy to draw the full eye line💀
Maybe when gohan raises his ki which auto triggers ultimate (elder kai said think of it kinda like super saiyan) so maybe he does that but applys the tingle🤨
GT Gohan is pretty cool ngl. Its pretty obvious on if hes ultimate or not, the hair ain't the indicator, its the eyes. If the eyes are filled then hes ultimate, if its halfway then hes base.
Super definitely confuses the audience because they do both whenever hes ultimate or not, while super hero fixes it.
Gt ain’t canon and gohan was worse there😂😂 also didnt he use super saiyan for all his fights ?
@@capo900 Also Gohan in GT made ultimate his BASE, so him going super Saiyan is him fusing ultimate with SSJ
@@samburgerwithcheeze8145 and When they say that ?💀 nothing implies he was in ultimate nor can he stack them thats headcanon lil bro but Gt gohan is what super gohan would be if he really stopped fighting 😂💯 weak asf
@@capo900
1) Ultimate Gohan uses his super Saiyan eyes and not the eyes he usually has. The super hero movie literally shows the difference kiddo. It's not head canon, it's the fact you don't pay attention and blame everyone who does is making it up.
2) In GT, Gohan didn't stop training, he literally says he trains occasionally. Ultimate is his base form because he never gets to super Gohan level where he prioritizes studying to the point he gets skinny. Gohan in GT base form is ultimate because his eyes aren't like Goku's and gotens in base like he was originally in the buu saga, they change when he goes ultimate. This is what happens when you go off assumptions and don't do your research, this is why I don't take your criticism seriously because you don't even know what your talking about
@@samburgerwithcheeze8145you still making up facts to fit ya narrative 💀 im not even gone finish the rest google is free his eyes never changed tf you talking about either way Gt gohan never used ultimate thats headcanon 😂 btw he was a terrible example you just made ultimate ssj sound weak asf
What's funny about this video coming out today is how after watching Yesterday's video about Super Saiyan 2, I saw a video saying about how sorely underestimated GT Gohan is, and now today you consistently highlighted how broken he was by stating that he was going Super Saiyan while Ultimate throughout GT and my mind is blown.
Like GOD DAMN, that's glorious. Ultimate Super Saiyan Gohan was no match for Omega Shenron, that's INSANE.
The video I saw after your Super Saiyan 2 video yesterday was this one: ua-cam.com/video/UGfeFTfYR9Y/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
Gt villain are pretty strong ppl underestimate it, pretty sure only by end of super we would see goku being able to beat shenron
@@ohhellwhereami2574 In Baby's case strength isn't so much the issue as not wanting to kill the host, which I FULLY appreciate because it shows strategy.
Super 17 using 2 existing models of power and Myuu's knowledge of Goku's strength helps show how capable Gero and Myuu are as scientists.
The Shadow Dragons are a fantastic concept regardless.
I believe Beast Gohan is the combination of Super Saiyan and his ultimate form.
I believe that's called Super Saiyan Ultimate Super Saiyan.
@@RrraverCrow I'm having Resurrection F flashbacks.
Possibly a true combination unlike just stacking them together. Like Gohan being ultimate and then transforming into a super saiyan could be equivalent to Goku stacking kaioken on top of blue, but beast would be the equivalent of blue being the combination of super saiyan and god ki or 4 being the combination of super saiyan and great ape.
@@RrraverCrow it'd be more like "Ultimate Super Saiyan" or "Super Ultimate Saiyan" or "Super Saiyan Ultimate"
Dang! I hadn't noticed! I didn't realise how consistent they were with it! Cool to know. And also agree that DBS makes the relation with Ultimate pretty weird. But, DBS, no surprise there.
I always saw it as gohan wanting to keep his mental state pure by not transforming
Trunks, Chi Chi, Bulma and Videl always have full line art. Do they have ultimate too? j/k
I've always looked at the Ultimate power-up as having two levels, mirroring Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, but with higher multipliers. Level 1 being Base x 500 and Level 2 being Base x 1,000. When Old Kai tells Gohan to power-up, he goes from Base to Level 1 Ultimate. He stays that way until going face-to-face with Super Buu. He then reaches Level 2 Ultimate. His power clearly increases between those two points in time as indicated by Piccolo's dialogue. During the Fusion Saga, I believe that the Ultimate power-up overrides Super Saiyan as a whole.
In GT, we know Gohan continues to train. I think his Level 2 Ultimate power eventually becomes his Base and he's able to use Super Saiyan on top of that.
Here are some numbers. Obviously, not official, but just to explain where I'm coming from...
FUSION SAGA (Z)
Base Gohan: 7.5 billion
(after having his potential unlocked)
Ultimate Gohan, Level 1: 3.75 trillion
Ultimate Gohan, Level 2: 7.5 trillion
BLACK STAR DRAGON BALL SAGA (GT)
Base Gohan: 7.5 trillion
Super Saiyan Gohan: 375 trillion
When it comes to Super, I have no clue what's going on.
Loved Gohan as a character and concept, but it really feels like they wrote themselves into a corner with him after refocusing on goku.
Ultimate Gohan: Brings out the maximum of his latent potential as a hybrid saiyan, WITHOUT activating S-Cells... hence much calmer, less violent, etc. It's the "human" side transformation, because he isn't using Saiyan-inherent techniques.
Beast Gohan: When the S-Cells in Ultimate Gohan activate. Essentially Super Saiyan of ultimate Gohan.
Just like SSB is Super Saiyan of SSG (to be fair, the Super term in SSG is a misnomer, since its just Saiyan that can use God Ki... which is why SSG always looks like a red colouration of the base forms, not the super saiyans).
I love Gohan :)
thought it was already said that he COULD go mystic/potential unleashed ontop of super saiyan but there was no real need on it? due to mystic being legit just ALL of his power and super saiyan being just a static multiplier
Yea they updated that a bit bud quote from toriyama obviously B4 his passing states hybrids are capable of their own forms hence rage trunks
In SDBH, there's a card where he actually uses both Ultimate and SS at the same time. That's the most "canon" answer we will get.
I am highly curious as to where he would fall power wise in the GT timeline if he( the GT Gohan) got that form I will admit....
Scholar my G. i might have been a 10 year old or sum, and ofcourse open to Opposition. but According to memory....Elder Kai told Gohan to TRY to Transfrom into a SSJ, and when he did he went Ultimate instead, now i gotta be specific and say i only watched the Anime, but i feel the Point still stands
I love the passion to theory crafting, and we all have to admit, this was left vague by the original author, and every author after didn't know what to do with it.
My head canon is that it's his "FULL POTENTIAL" including Super Saiyan forms. Thematically Super Saiyan is something with you that you can tap into, it's apart of their potential.
I think Gohan can access ssj, but with no power gained. My reason for that being, why wouldn't he use that against buu. He was ready to fuse with Goku, but not willing to try ult +ssj2? Seems weird.
I agree that it super fumbled it, I wish it replaced his forms instead of being a form itself.
Beast reminds me of true UI in that his emotions are the key to his power.
Needless to say I wish gohan was able achieve mystic 2 or even a potential mystic 3 in some way then and there he’d be the ultimate hybrid of the saiyan race in my book
Dbs eyes is ridiculous hope they learn from it
To season 2
🍿
GT Gohan and future Gohan are the best out of the whole franchise.
I don't why but my headcanon keeps telling me that beast form is just ssj2 stacked onto ultimate since beast form has that ssj2-esque design as well as those electric sparkles, heck even it's transformation sequence is the same as that of super saiyan 2
funny scottish man talks about dragon balls-deep.
I'm kinda curious if maybe you're confusing ultimate with SSJ4. It seems to me that ultimate's potential-drawing whatever handwavy business is not the multiplier from SSJ/2, unlike how SSJ4 seems to have been painted to do the both of those at once, but i might be misunderstanding how SSJ4 is supposed to work.
Still standing by what i said about beast being a soft boot
Yo honestly I'm trying to think how stromg a super saiyan stacked on ultimate could be and honestly I don't think I'm smart enough to think of an answer
Completely agree with everything in the video. Stupid Super....
That Battle of Gods trailer really made me think Gohan could stack Super Saiyan on it. But at least now we know there is a full. Transformation. Super should have done that instead. Kept showing the broken eyes for his Super Saiyan forms so that when he finally got his full lines for Ultimate they could then show him stacking on it. Like If they had shown his training in some slice of life arcs... Like bruh that Vegeta clone stuff could have easily been Goten, Trunks and Gohan on an adventure. Where they see he's still the superhero he's always been to the whole dang universe. I still think....
He started the Revolution against The Emperor of the Universe with nobody to back him up except Krillin. He deserves to end it. Preferably in Great Saiyaman form because he has no limit with that costume on. (If anybody stacked Super Saiyan on Ultimate it's SUPER GREAT SAIYAMAN F-A-X). Look at that feat on Watagash. Great Saiyaman is his true Ultimate form. Ultimate is his base. 😂
Next video will be "Why Goku NEVER actually learned the Kaio Ken!"
I wonder why animators of the dragon ball show don't join the conversation. I feel like they would have known this information already
Isn't the answer no.
The Elder Kai says Gohan has access to all of his power without the need for transformation. Thats maximum Gohan baseform + maximum SSJ multiplier+ Oozaru this is the reason for the power jump. ( low estimation 2×-base,
100×-SSJ, 10×-Oozaru= 2000x increase. Goku around 400x.)
When it comes to Beast that seem to be more in line with Broly's wrathful form. A controllable rage boost.
I believe ultimate Gohan was his full potential at the time it was awakened so going super saiyan couldn't have made him any stronger, as he got older his potential increased even more therefore super saiyan would draw out more power (just not 50X) obviously he lost both ultimate and SSJ2 durinf ROF but that doesnt affect his potential, later on in TOP arc he reawakened ultimate, its now his full potential at that time which was stronger than Pre-TOP Blue Goku, it stays this way upto super hero, where his potential grew even more but he never lost it so he still is only blue Goku level, the rage boost plus extra potential allowed Beast Gohan to happen.
I guess it's just that Ultimate+SSJ would be such a broken multiplier that they don't know what to do with it. How strong would that make him? Like, 100 times stronger than base Goku fighting seriously in the current arc? Maybe even 10 SSJ? Equal to SSJ3?
Could beast be his ultimate stacked with super
wasnt the only reason he was in ssj in the battle of gods trailer and in GT because they forgot about ultimate as a form? which for battle of gods full release they corrected it?
Beast was just ssj 2 and rage stacked on ultimate. I dont know why a lot of people thought god ki had anything to do with it. The artist just decided to depict him the way they did and they probably were influenced by ultra instincts look.
Beast is just ultimate evolved 💀 has nothing to do with ssj at all
@capo900 stacking ssj 2 on it is a evolution. If it happened years ago before the UI stuff, they probably would made it look different
I alaays thought that Ultimate replaces SSJ, as the power was comparable to Goku's SSJ3 in the Buu saga. Afterwards, he could improve on the Ultimate power to brcome stronger, instead of activating SSJ power levels
They even got his Ultimate Form right in Fortnite
Wen did Mystic Gohan become Ultimate Gohan?
It was never Mystic to begin with, it was Ultimate from the start. The name Mystic was just a name made by us the fans cause it sounds cooler. The name Ultimate was always official from then to now. Ultimate even had it's official mention in the DBS Manga after the Superhero Arc on Beerus's planet where Goten and Trunks said to Gohan "Hey that's not fair using Ultimate on us!" while Gohan was confused at what they were talking about cause he himself never named his form but Goten and Trunks did. And don't forget games, all the games Gohan was always called Ultimate Gohan. So in other words:
Mystic Gohan is a fan name
Ultimate Gohan is the official name
Mystic was a fan term.
It's official names have always been ultimate, elder kai unlock ability or potential unleashed.
The reason Ultimate cant stack Super Saiyan is becuase the form mainly uses Human power and Humans cant go super saiyan so the multiplier wouldnt affect the hybrids human battle power. It would only multiply the saiyan battle power. How GT Gohan managed to pull this off is a mystery. But Its possible may not have stacked his power that much if it only amped his lower percentage Saiyan power in the Ultimate form(lets say Ultimate is 90% human 10% Saiyan for example).
Well ultimate is meant to be his latent access state. But dude its absolutely useless to go ssj on top of ultimate because he already will go to his full strength state. The one thing he could do is learn something like kaioken which would stack on top of it.
But now the beast form is meant to represent what happens if he did stack ssj along with rage boost on top of the ultimate form. Because i believe thats what whis was telling beerus!
The beast transformation makes this entire video null and void. After ultimate
Gohan’s greatest asspull yet.😂
@@shangothunder1055no....
@@ohhellwhereami2574 yes…😂
@@shangothunder1055 no
@@ohhellwhereami2574 yes it is; but feel free to provide a proper rebuttal explanation.
You know who is ultimate based on your saying? Tien, Bardock, Vegeta and Raditz.
Super has kind of ruined Ultimate by turning it into a transformation. And it even requires Gohan to be at peak stamina to use according to Super Hero, negating the entire purpose of the power-up to begin with as a way for Gohan to use his full power without the stamina drain that comes from using SSJ2 or 3. It also makes no sense for Goten and Trunks to name it 'Ultimate' after it has already been shown to not be Gohan's ultimate form or anywhere near his full power. Here's Ultimate, his Penultimate form!'
Rather than stacking super saiyan on top of Ultimate, I'd have liked to have seen Gohan use the kaioken. Just the 1st level would have put him at the same level powerwise against Buutenks as he had been against regular Super Buu. It would have made a lot of sense for Goku to teach Gohan the kaioken as a way of preparing Gohan for unlocking super saiyan during the Android and Cell arcs, and that would have made all the difference against Buu. It's really stupid how Goku never teaches anyone any of these techniques that would be really useful for all of the Z-fighters to know, not even his own kids. The fusion dance seems to be the first and only technique he ever taught to someone else. I bet Gohan even learned the kahemameha wave on his own and not from Goku actively attempting to teach it. Everyone else learned it on their own easily enough.
Only issue with this is how is “Ultimate Super Saiyan Gohan” not at least as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku or Vegeta, GT Gohan was done dirty especially if he never quit training.
I do love this video though, great explanations and it comes full circle with the Beast part
Ah yes the classic point to a random bang or hair spike and explain absolutely nothing and say some random bullshit to wrap it up it’s a classic
Now the question is. How close is Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga to Beerus? He is already MUCH stronger than SSJ 3 Goku in his ultimate form, beating the piss out of Super Buu, so we have someone who is an indeterminant amount stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, who can then multiply their power by 100x if he went SSJ2.
I'm telling you Cell Saga Gohan and Ultimate Buu saga Gohan is so much stronger than we give him credit for. Sad that they have to nerf him constantly for plot.
It is possible for SSJ 2 Cell games Gohan to be more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan even more powerful still.
The only question is, why didn't he at least try the super stack against Buutenks
Ult should just be his base form
Stack on ultimate form wouldn't do anything his ultimate form alone was getting bodied by a yadrat in the tournament of power and couldn't do nothing against toppo and barely won against dyspo without frieza help
Bro the video just came out at least to watch the whole thing before commenting.
@@nevadalotto560 who else am I talking to? You obviously 🤡
@@nevadalotto560 *Vader breathez heavy* I think... he waz talkin ta u y.g.... *Vader eatz popcorn*
@@tha1stalchemist Y'all both get out
@nevadalotto560 *Vader breathez heavy* nah... I'm watchin this... *Vader continuez eatin popcorn*
If he could he would have used it against buutenks
Let’s be honest gt gohan wasn’t ultimate ultimate was a form 10x stronger than ssj so it makes sense that gohan would have to go ssj-2 to bring out his power then become ultimate he couldn’t stack ssj on his ultimate form if he could his ssj1-2 would be freaking ultra ego and instict lvl the reason gohan kept going ssj was because he lost his ultimate power the same way he lost his full ssj2 power from cell saga to buu saga same with gt gohan was at Least late 30s maybe early 40s by Gt with that continuity means last time he went ultimate was when he was 16-17 makes sense that he would lose the form if 20+ yrs go by makes sense because he already was losing his ultimate form only a few years after buu saga when he attacked berus we just gotta be real our boy lost his sauce until super hero he was down bad
I dont think its the case
That he stacks super saiyan ontop of ultimate
Ssj is on top of ultimate makes no sense at all. It makes more sense that ultimate is a ssj transformation in itself but without the hair turning gold and much bigger power up.
then why can't he have done ssj and ultimate when buutenks was bopping him
because he can't, if he could then he would went ssj + ultimate when fighting buu and he didnt
He already explained why in the video if you watched it fully
as much as i like some of the lore, forms and characters from GT it is not mainline cannon. (base kid goku > omega shenron > ssj4 adult goku?) also a training ultimate gohan who can THEN stack SSJ1 and 2 is weaker than vegeta with only SSJ1 and 2? (baby)
so gohan in the buu arc was just stupid? or was for some reason choosing not to transform to save the ENTIRE UNIVERSE? same thing with the TOP he was just choosing not to transform when the entire universe was at stake? is he stupid or heartless?
The ultimate form never stood out to me
I disagree about stacking… or it’s terrible writing. I think it’s one or the other. In Super where he transforms from SSJ2 to Ultimate makes more sense.
My reasoning is if he could always stack SSJ on top of Ultimate, then WHY didn’t he stack that against Butenks? He was getting his butt handed to him against Butenks and was about to get killed. IF he could stack SSJ on top on ultimate… but didn’t need it then… well HE WOOULD HAVE NEEDED IT… because his life and the world was in endangered.
I think he didn’t because they are not stackable. He would be weaker if he went SSJ2. Also GT is non-canon anymore, ha!
It actually…literally… means he can’t “stack” the power ups. Super Saiyan doesn’t stack with ultimate. He turns Super Saiyan first, then turns “ultimate” because Super Saiyan is a lower power level. This I a reach with no proof.
And GT isn’t canon so that’s out.
The bang is always consistent with the ultimate form. Especially in canon. The rest is an assumption.
Bros is reaching so far, if he can stack it, why didn't he against buutenks? Because he can't. The end
The screwups of Super help us appreciate the masterpiece that is the original DB.
no, no nononono. this is all wrong. ultimate gohan IS gohan trying to turn super saiyan. that's exactly how he unlocked the form. it replaces his super saiyan forms.
Yeah ultimate is indeed not a transformation pretty much.