The Orthodox Convert Surge - Hard Facts
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- In a previous video, I discussed a pile of anecdotal evidence that there is an Orthodox convert surge. But is it real? Does it show up in real data?
And is it true that there is a big spike in young men converting? Does the form of reception (baptism vs. chrismation only) make a difference in long-term engagement?
Matthew Namee, Executive Director of the Orthodox Studies Institute, discusses a new study from OSI which tracked Orthodox converts in the US from 2013-2023.
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Mostly protestants followed by Catholic converts in my area, but we have a sizeable and growing number of Jewish, muslim and neo-pagan converts.
Interesting!
What area is that and what kind of numbers are we talking about?
Just curious, GB
We are in DFW, TX. So it's fairly metropolitan. A huge Jewish population down here, a lot of disenfranchised whites who end up neo-pagan on their spiritual journey, and a second generation muslim population to draw from.
I haven't done a census, but as a recent convert myself who knows a lot of the converts at several churches, these are my guestimates.
I would say nearly 5% of the church are Jewish converts, mostly Ashkenazi and Sephardi and a few Mizrahi, mostly secular or reformed Jews. Jews are also more likely to enter the priesthood, somewhere between 5-10% of our priests are of Jewish background.
About 1% of the church are muslim converts, either people who are 2nd generation American or American converts to islam who left islam for the Orthodox church.
Lots of former neo-pagans, mostly disenfranchised whites, this is probably over 5% of converts.
Some of the neo-pagan were Haitian or American black voodoo/santaria.
I kind of figured the neopagans would be in that group. I have taken interest in Orthodox and TLM Catholic because I find that crowd of people interestibg.
I am not going to say that I exactly was one of those guys. However, I will see myself as sympathetic or adjacent.
I took interest because I am the kind of guy that just hates the establishment and the current freak show we live in. I think I was born with my middle fingers in the air.
Glory to God!
I’m a catechumen, previously atheist via the Jordan Peterson-Jonathan Pageau pipeline.
I took interest in Jordan Peterson's look?at the Bible. That hasn't motivated me to convert, but I have looked at utility value of religion for years. I sometimes wonder what would happen if the otaku and weeb went shinto.
@@Gennalouiserobinson . I know that pipeline well. Around 2018 I heard Jordan say that he gets a lot of correspondence from the Orthodox, and I wondered, “who are the Orthodox?”. So I started to investigate, and around 2021 I was received into the church.
Good luck with your journey.
Same!
Same
Gotta love the Peterson-Pageau-LordofSpirits pipeline
We can partially blame you Fr. Damick for helping create this surge! God bless and thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Some of our newest coverts our parish is getting are not adults but male teen converts under 18 who come to our parish without their parents.
That's amazing!
When my husband, children, and I began our inquiry in 2018 from RC, our oldest was 8 years old. After going to the Orthodox church for just a couple months, he spent the night at my sister's house one Saturday and went to church with them at some sort of non-denominational or Baptist-ish church. He came back with scathing reviews of their church. I found it quite refreshing. Of course, it also made me chuckle to hear such things coming from an 8 year old boy. The little ones know when they encounter Truth! ❤
yep! that would be me...
At my Orthodox church, my impression is that new converts want to be baptised; they want that full, dramatic experience. One young man coming from a Catholic background told me he was disappointed that he would receive Chrismation only. I was fine with receiving Chrismation only because I trust my priest and I follow his guidance.
Coming from a protestant background, i can understand why they/we would want another baptism, where you were baptized as a symbol and not a sacrament.
Catholicism doesnt believe that however, so its disheartening to hear that.
I want to blend in as quietly as possible but I am concerned with how I will be received by my local Orthodox Church. My gut feeling is they are not as nice as Protestants. There is a stiffness that I sense that I am trying to investigate. Just being honest.
I think that's the case anywhere people go. It often happens in the reverse too.
@@RafaelGarcia-jb3me what kind of parish is it? Are a lot of them cradle Orthodox or converts?
@@AppalachianScotist well I am about to find out soon after I contact them. I have a great relationship with my current pastor which is making the transition even more difficult.
QUOTE: Unmarried women becoming less religious.
That is jolting. The assumption has been that women "by nature" are more religious. Do do a podcast on this.
Point: the culture aggressively promotes the attainment of power with women. When women do their religious impulse weakens. For reasons. With men not so. Exercise of power/authority is "natural" with men. Done rightly it supports their religious choices/loyalties. Men, properly formed, know their fit. With women a dualism enters (which is somewhat counterintuitive). It's either religion or power.
Many women my age are being drawn to witchcraft, which is Satanism Adjacent.
I think it's more replacing religion with ideology and virtue signaling. Especially when the virtue signaling feels more real, and costs you nothing. Even if it achieved nothing.
I think it mostly has to do with what’s mainstream in society. Women are more likely to follow the system they’re placed in.
Back when the culture was pro-religion, women were more conservative than men. Now they’re more liberal because the culture is anti-religious.
@@Joefrenomics some people have interestibg discussions about how more men may reject groupthink and more women may choose it.
I think I enjoy the discussions not because of how true they may be, but because even suggesting such a thing gets the Moldbug Cathedral's panties in a twist. The more forbidden an idea is to muh consensus, the more I suspect there is an ugly truth in it. I prefer ugly truths to pretty lies.
@@skylinefever "such a thing gets the Moldbug Cathedral's panties in a twist"
There is no "Cathedral". That's just Moldbug trying to divert attention away from his tribe. No one gets canceled for criticizing WASPs. WASPs don't own the media, banks, and NGO's.
While as a Catholic I’m never thrilled with people leaving the Church, if they do leave, I am happy when they become Orthodox,
I had been properly baptized in 2010. When i converted and about to be baptized, my priest asked me if I wanted baptism or just crismation, and I replied, “I want the whole kit and kaboodle because it’s free and it must be better.” It seemed like the right thing to do given my mind was in a different place than it had been before orthodoxy. I’m a 60 year old married woman. My husband will be a catechumen this fall.
Covid gave many of us time for introspection and online study/research at the same time. Thus. My guess is that converts will bring in a few themselves; as will the increasing online presence. It may not be a concentrated surge as it was post covid.
@@Xeniathefool-11 . Are you sure you want cremation? That seems a bit extreme. 🤓 perhaps Chrismation would be better. Don’t worry, Siri did the same thing to me.
Hahaha
If you were baptized once there is no necessity for a repeat and it is not better. You know you are already baptized, thus you are a Christian. You will damage your conscience if you repeat the sacrament to no purpose. Clergy ought not tempt neophytes to do so.
Haha. Ugh. 😩
Very good video. Honest. Informed. Great job.
So. I'm a 68yo man who was baptized and chrisimated in a GOARCH church in the Deep South. I am glad that I got the "full experience" of being received into the Orthodox Church on St. Lazarus Saturday during Holy Week 2022. And like another subscriber noted, I partially blame you, Rev. Fr. Damick 🙂
I was received via chrismation into the church in 2022. I was baptised RC when I was born in the early 70’s, but out of the church from 18 years old (over 30 years). My baptismal certificate was my mother coming to visit one day and telling our Parish Priest that I was baptised and in regular attendance of the RC Church. Out Bishop normallt receives RC’s via Chrismation. I could’ve petitioned the Bishop, but I chose to be received via Chrismation because that is what the Bishop recommends, and I felt the true “experience” is to be under obedience to my Bishop. On a side note, Father Seraphim Rose was received via Chrismation.
Im from Chile, and the parish I virtually attend (its a long trip, for like 26 hours, so i mostly watch Divine Liturgy though their live streaming) had 70 converts since january to june this year. In Sunday services the church is full and crowded, with not enough space to even sit, and in the streaming there are always like 50 more people, only on YT. I dont know the numbers from Facebook transmission. I remember that after pandemics, there were like 8 people every Sunday, and like 5 online. Today is still growing.
I’m in a parish in Utah, it is a healthy growing church. We are definitely having a surge. I converted 14 years ago and have watched the church grow. I have noticed that the number of catechumens in church continue growing, the majority of which are single men.
I am former Mormon, and I notice that about half of the catechumens and converts are former Mormon.
Hey, I go to St Anna's over in Sandy! I'm assuming you go to St Peter and Paul's. I went by there for liturgy just a few weeks ago to meet Fr Paul and check out the church for the first time and the amount of catechumen who were there, particularly men, was mind blowing to me.
@@austinpissey8789 I do go to Sts Peter & Paul. Just made 3 more catechumens on Sunday, all men.
@plympgirl Glory to God! Wow, that's incredible. I think his youtube ministry is doing great work, love supplementing my own spiritual father with his wisdom. Loved your parish, just a bit cramped for me, my wife, and my own 3 kids haha. What an amazing problem to have.
50 yr Protestant currently attending and leaning towards OCA now for about 2 months or so. Still have some things to get figured out...lots and lots of research/reading of Orthodox books. Been watching alot of debates between Dr Gavin and other Orthodox fathers UNfortunately that's actually not helping with the case for Orthodox, cause Dr Gavin is very well versed. However wife and I praying and asking God to expose Truths and assist with our Spiritual journey. God Bless my friends. ✝️🙏☦️
The more you study what he qoutes the more you realize gavin doesn't know what hes talking about. For example, eusibius he qoutes as being against images. Most scholars doubt whether those are accurate and not forgeries.
30 year old Protestant here, I’m trying to do the same kind of research. Every week I’ve been meeting up with my parents who are very devout to discuss and debate issues together and we’re learning a lot. I’m starting to lean towards Orthodoxy and while I can’t say the same for my parents yet, their hearts have certainly softened towards it.
I converted to an OCA parish three years ago after spending decades as a Calvinist.
I have watched his debates as well. Here is what I recommend: attend Divine Liturgy regularly and begin using an Orthodox prayer book. You will understand the theology that way.
I hope your journey continues. I have no regrets
@BrianJonson this is good advice. It is not theology in isolation.
There's a lot in common your account shares among Protestant inquirers. You may find that ultimately the Orthodox faith is about acquiring the mind of the Church, it's _phronema_ , rather than polemics and theological technicalities.There's no shortage of these things within the Church, they're just not central to Orthodox life. This is because the Orthodox way is the way of the heart, not the head -- the continual question being 'how shall we then live?' rather than 'what shall we then think?'.Good strength in your inquiry!
36:28 I think it’s a surge of inactive Christians who have not believed in years, but received faith again once the lockdown and riots started.
It explains the majority Protestant surge and the rise in baptisms. The CEO types who were essentially churchless who found a tradition that could overcome all their misgivings about the faith.
38:51 Huge surge in gun and ammo purchases by new buyers, too, in the same period.
I'm 66, and I was born into evangelical Protestantism. Late in life I walked away from that world, was received into Orthodoxy, and never looked back.
My little Antiochian parish has been growing exponentially, with young families, but particularly with men, especially young men. Most are former nones, nihilists, and disaffected evangelical Protestants.
Inquirers and catechumens, take it from an old man who's been in the trenches for a long time, do not listen to Gavin Ortlund, John Mac Arthur, and the lot of them.
Thanks for the advice! I’m a 30 year old married woman inquirer. I’ve been listening to Ortlund every now and then so I can be confident I’ve heard out the full case for Protestantism before I make up my mind. Although he appears genuinely kind and well researched, I don’t want that to sway me, but I need to hear good refutations of his arguments. If you know any good sources that directly refute him please let me know! God bless ❤
Ortlund makes the case for emphasizing the command to obey authorities. That is OT style, and not incorrect, but he says that is more important than worshipping Jesus. That immediately says a lot about his interpretation. Jesus was a hippie dippy no violence or action, only turn the other cheek? Right? Or is the life of Jesus as story about opposing liars, hypocrites and whipping them out of the temple, while flipping tables etc.
I don't know if he is a zionist, but I guess he is. Any Christian zionist, have an inverted interpretation of scripture. They are lied to, by the father of lies, the Synagoge of Satan.
@@alexandria1663what arguments stick out to you the most?
My interest was seeing anything growth for reasons other than giving hellfire and brimstone sermons to kids and telling them to go forth and multiply.
I say Pascal can take his wager and cram it.
are you born again?
We are from St Maximus OCA in Denton, Texas. We are Protestant (non denom) converts who had trinitarian baptisms and had our certificates. My priest actually said that my Methodist infant baptism cert was my most valid one. However, we wanted an Orthodox baptism! It's so complete and beautiful and no matter what, we didn't want to miss out on the full experience! Our Catholic family friends (the Heitzenrater family) who entered the church just before us also were baptized because of wanting the full experience! We all were baptized in 2019.
After listening to Fr. Josiah Trenham's series on demonology (Patristic Nectar app), I was reminded of all the exorcism prayers that are done during an Orthodox baptism. This is the reason I am glad my family and I also were baptized at our chrismation. We are Catholic converts. I just remember my youngest child's Catholic baptism - the priest went so fast that we thought he was just getting started when he announced he was finished. It was crazy. Plus, my husband and I figured with all the things that have been going on in the Catholic church, we better get baptized to be on the safe side! We were baptized and chrismated in 2019, too. 😊
Nicene Creed - "one Baptism for the remission of sins". No matter what Christian denomination you come from, their Baptism is complete and acceptable to God. You get NO additional benefit by getting Baptized again (in the EO Church).
@@johnpowers3013 perhaps there is no additional benefit when it comes to salvation, but I definitely experienced a beauty that has benefitted me. The experience truly has a different impact on me than my baptism at a non denomination church.
@@johnpowers3013 If that "one baptism" consisted of exorcism prayers, then, yes. The extra benefit of getting baptized in the EO church is the exorcism prayers and the other cleansing prayers. Cleansing and purifying before receiving Christ or being close to God is a main theme of the entire Bible. Evil must first be cleansed from the body before it can be a suitable temple for the Holy Spirit. No cleansing, first, means no acceptable dwelling place for God.
My parish participated in this study! I'm happy to hear the results.
Love the username
Thanks for the video Fr. Andrew, loved this topic. I am an aspiring convert coming from Pentecostalism. I can't wait to be baptised and chrismated into the Orthodox Church. God willing it will happen soon. I've had to wait 3 or so years to go through catechism. Lord willing I can complete catechism next year!
Wow, 3 years is a long time. I was baptized after 1 year. There are converts at my parish who were baptized in 6 months and one who is now serving at the altar.
Out of curiosity, what made you want to convert?
Blessed be for your patience. I know it’s hard; I was a catechumen during the pandemic & it took me 2 years of formal catechesis on top of 2 prior years of deep study & inquiry into Orthodoxy. But so worth it. Best decision, hands down-even though it has come with MANY trials, tribulations, & temptations. It is definitely not for the faint of heart or feel-good seekers. Which is extremely sobering & humbling, in my experience. Lord have mercy on your soul 🙏🏻 Always lean on Him & He will guide you on this journey into His eternal kingdom…welcome home! ☦️
God be with you! I was pentecostal too. My inquiry and catechism was about as long; lots to learn and unlearn. It is all worth it.
@@hz3917 interesting! Did/do you speak with tongues?
I think the general idea amongst every denomination is that Mormons aren't considered Christian, but we've seen an equal explosion of attendance and converts here (especially in Mormons). Fr Trubenbach from St Peter and Paul in SLC has been increasingly developing a following here on UA-cam. I attend a different parish in the valley, but attended his parish last week for the first time and it was filled to absolute capacity, overflowing into the Narthex and lobby with dozens of children running around. The parishes here are extremely young, in large part thanks to the Mormons coming in with large families and young men. It'd be interesting to see how much Utah would skew studies being done.
A couple of months ago, the deacon(Zaccarias?) and his wife Photini came from St. Peter and Paul parish(SLC) to help out in my parish in Mesa AZ. Photini commented on how familiar our parish is with theirs! We have a few mormon converts, young couples and lots of small children. Plus we're also crammed in church on Sundays.
Wow Fr. Paul better gather the funds from those neophyte exmormons to build a bigger church or send them to one nearby or they will be lost! It’s not good to let overflow attendance continue for long. But I suppose these young folks don’t have much money. There are several Orthodox parishes in SLC and I bet between them they can accommodate all the newcomers. I hope the clergy all collaborate on this, I hate the idea of letting any of them flake off.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972
They just finished paying off St. Xenia's Mortgage 2 years ago and it sounds like a 3rd Parish is in the works in another area of Rural Salt Lake.
@@acekoala457 marvelous news! But how are the Greeks in SLC doing since their kerfuffle a few years ago? I see both GOA parishes in greater SLC share one website and have one single Archimandrite serving them. That doesn’t sound ideal. There is a ROCOR parish and a Serbian one as well. Do they attract exMormons as well?
I am a catechumen in Pocatello Idaho, at the Assumption Greek Orthodox Church. Not too far from SLC, even more heavily Mormon. Our parish here is exploding with growth and I would say 30-40 percent of the parish are Mormon converts, many of them young families.
Single woman here being received into the Church at the end of the month. 🙋🏽♀️😊
Same!
there is a pedagogical aspect to full baptism, not only to the baptizand, but to the community at large which is often overlooked.
On church retention: what's the impact from the convert knowing the language?
In my parish most people who were baptized the same time I did, wanted to be baptized and not Chrismated, because they wanted that experience. I honestly would recommend baptism if you have a choice. The experience was phenomenal.
I'm currently in the process of converting to Orthodoxy and will be a catechumen soon. I was an Asatruar Neo-pagan for 5 years and before that I was an atheist for around 10 years, but I was raised Baptist(ish) but never baptized
I LOVE that somebody finally tried to get the numbers on this!
During the pandemic, we had a lot more time to listen to stuff. We listened to Roman Catholic content which always led us back to looking at Orthodox content. Husband and I had been faithfully attending a lcms Lutheran church for our marriage (we had grown up mostly evangelical) our kids were baptised lcms which is VERY sacremental and liturgical. Initially it was a difficult pill for me to swallow getting them baptized in the orthodox church. My husband and I not growing up sacremental I understand fully us being baptized. Our priest said the bishop wanted everyone joining to be baptized. Getting back to how we got to the Orthodox church. ...the more we read the church fathers and everything that was happening around the reformation... we just couldn't stay Lutheran. Your book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy and Lord of the Spirits podcast was HUGE for us. We had listened to a lot of content on ancient faith over the years (long before converting) After listening to lord of the spirits...that helped GREATLY with a lot of issues that kept me stuck in protestantism over the years... like the fall and original sin. Our little Orthodox church is thriving. People help each other, we participate in pan orthodox events and we know each other at the other parishes, my oldest loves alter serving and faithfully has his clothes ready and alarm set night before(on his own), my kids love participating in choir church camp cleaning meal prep whatever is happening. It's good.
You traded trusting in Jesus' "payment in full" on the cross for works righteousness. I am saddened to hear that.
I would love to see my parishes results, we are indeed booming and have plans to expand the church, both the nave and the fellowship area!
My stats, for those interested, I am one of those more rare single women who found and fell in love with the church. It made me sad when he said most young women aren’t interested in religion, but if I look at my experiences, that is correct. Live fast, die young seems to be a lot of peoples mottos today. I have two children that joined as well, but like this study, my parish counts the adult members at the church. I am 31 so I am right in the age where people tend to seek for God in more earnest. Something was deeply lacking and I found it instantly, glory to God! I needed a deeper prayer life and within two weeks I was singing the prayers in my sleep, mostly from attending vespers and liturgy and doing small compline at home. We have done nothing but grow as a family and my son has had behavior changes my matushka called “miraculous”, and I have to agree with her assessment. Life is better in Gods One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I’m also a 31 year old single woman who converted just this year :)
I converted as a single woman when I was 18, a long time ago!
@@Phoebe907 hello Phoebe!!!! Welcome!🤗
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that the Lord of Spirits podcast has something to do with it.
Covid probably has more to do with it. That was an eye opening moment for many people.
Pal Vanderklay takes interest in this and he isn't even Orthodox.
I work professionally in data analysis, and in my opinion, the sample size of the survey used is way too small for the results to mean anything. No conclusions can be drawn about Orthodoxy in America as a whole from such a tiny sample size of only 20 parishes.
That's the thing though, the more precise the data... The harder it is to gather and so the sample sizes suffer.
Whereas self reported data is often extremely unreliable. Like with studies on what people ate... Asking how many bananas they ate over a year... How are they supposed to know?
@@KillerofGods that's true, but they absolutely could have gotten more than 20 parishes to respond in such a manner. 20 is way way too little.
You might be able to combat the relocation disengagement issue by connecting the person who is moving with a parish in the city/town they are moving to. It might take away the apprehension of meeting new people at the new parish and forming new connections with their new church.
Interesting interview Father. One thing is often overlooked is that if the parishes that have been around for a while regained all of the potential reverts from people who either disengaged from Church life or left the Church as adults then most parishes would be packed wall to wall and there would be people standing outside the door. I'm including children and grandchildren of people who disengaged/left in this line of speculation.
There are also people like myself that were baptized as infants but raised largely secular and lived as an atheist for 15 years. I was Chrismated but was very much non-Christian beforehand.
I was one of 12 people received on Holy Saturday at my parish this year; and we were all baptized. I don't know everyone's story; but I was baptized Roman Catholic (and proceeded to become a lifelong atheist), and the notion of getting a certificate from a church 2200 miles away that I haven't been to in 25 years was a non-starter for me. I was told if I couldn't produce the certificate, I would be baptized, so that was that.
You could have easily gotten your Catholic baptism certificate with a phone call or email. Catholic parishes keep good records and take baptism seriously. A certificate is not requisite anyhow for chrismation, unless a priest imposes his own personal requirements, implying his doubt as to reporting from newcomers.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972 The longstanding policy of the Antiochian Archdiocese, at least, is that a person baptized in a heterodox confession must present a baptismal certificate to their Antiochian priest if they are to be received via chrismation only. I know of cases where other evidence (e.g. photo/video or eyewitness testimony) has been accepted, but the written protocol is a certificate.
@@MatthewNamee I see. That stipulation would necessitate the baptism if the document was unavailable, which corroborates the guess by Damick and Namee regarding unavailability of documents during the pandemic. So it’s not significant in the long run.
Regarding percentage of converts-I bet it’s a larger percentage in the West than in the East.
When you say East, what do you have on your mind.? East is pretty wide...
@@johnnyd2383 I’m assuming we’re talking about US parishes. I’ve never been to a church east of the Mississippi. My (not extensive) experience in western parishes is that there are a lot of converts. So my question in the form of a statement is whether there’s an actual statistical reality that there’s a higher percentage of converts in the western United States than there are east of the Mississippi. Also, thank you for reading my typo in the original comment as what I actually meant. I’ll go back and fix it now.
@@JanBear I live in SC and there are lots of converts at all the parishes I am familiar with around here. Not sure if this can be extrapolated to most parishes in Eastern US, but my gut feeling is yes. Glory to God!
I’m in the SW corner of the US and the ‘surge’ in my parish is not a big one. Every region and every town have their own peculiar profiles and though my parish is in a ‘city’ of some 300,000 and is the only Eastern Orthodox Church in it, we have not had impressive numbers of newcomers in the last several years.
@@JanBearI’m in South Carolina. We have had a stampede of converts-catechumens and received by baptism 95 percent of the time. Our church has attendance of 100-125 per Sunday; we have about 25 catechumens, and every Sunday there is someone there who has never been to an Orthodox Church before.
27:50 I am 27 and never baptized in Baptist/nondenom background. It was only taught as a purely performative tradition and not important. Been attending a ROCOR parish for some time now.
I would like to see more qualitative studies digging further into convert demographics and motivations.
We are both converts from Anglicanism, but Mr. was raised there and Mrs. was raised in a non- liturgical tradition. Both of us were chrismated after retirement. We have heard many stories of folks going from a non- liturgical tradition, through Anglicanism, and then landing in the Orthodox Church. So, maybe the THROUGH path is worth attention?
Anecdote: My path was Secular/Atheist -> PCUSA -> UCC -> ELCA -> Orthodox!
Whew!
We are so thankful to have chosen the Anglican Church. Grateful for our time in the Orthodox Church but ultimately it was a no.
As per Engagement Score, I suggest you calculate the ratios per successive years. That should be a constant when you get above 10 years.
This is very interesting!
You should add a category and that is of Reversion people who came back or maybe do a survey of Reverts
There already exists a category for those who have left the faith and come back. Re-chrismation is the appropriate medicine.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972
Even that depends. If they were Sincere Apostates then Chrismation and Renouncing of Errors is Appropriate.
If they left out of negligence and never completely apostatised then Confession is Sufficient.
@@acekoala457 if they went to a Mormon ward house and took their ‘sacrament’ they need rechrismation.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972
Yes. That would be them being "Sincerely Apostate".
But Children of Apostates that were baptized as infants and never attended a Heterodox or heathen service would probably just be received back by Confession.
I have moved once since being Baptised Orthodox. I am gonna move again for work and I am already building a relationship with the Parish Priest at the Parish I'll be moving to.
The problem is I already know many who have converted and left already. It’s one thing to present orthodoxy nicely online like the big names but very different when it’s boots on the ground.
Increase in my parish. Slightly disproportionately single men. Most were atheist/agnostic or Protestant, some pagans.
It exploded last year, it’s not that many now but we still see new faces regularly
Unfortunately all the parishes in my area are literally dying out and closing 😢 Were any parishes in PA/WV represented? I didn't see that the PDF study says exactly where the data was from.
The parishes in your area may be dying due to demographic changes that are occuring due to your area being economically depressed. New people are not moving in large numbers to WVA and parts of PA, so the older generations are dying off, current generations are leaving, and no new people are moving. However, Orthodox parishes are growing and surging in areas of the country that are economically thriving. My area, Nashville for example, is booming. Our Orthodox parishes in the Nashville metro area are growing.
@@gregcoogan8270 There's no need to be condescending about it, trust me, I am very aware of our reality, and everyone ignores it because they like to just see the few parishes in places like Nashville or Huntsville that are growing. Yet we have 25 parishes that are dying and consolidating. I guess sweep us under the rug and present the nice spots.
Is your parish more ethnic? Because a lot of Parishes that are over 50% ethnic are having a hard time. They've become more like country clubs than Orthodox churches.
@@laurahildebrand7023 Historically it was heavily Ukrainian, most were very ethnic. Now it is a bit of a mix but still skews broadly Slavic.
Pretty much everyone around is having a hard time, no one seems to want to talk about it though.
@@AppalachianScotist How was I condescending? That's the economic reality of that part of the country. Would you prefer I pretend that isn't the case? So now if we speak of the reality of someting, it's "condescending"?
My follow up question is - have you looked at “retention rate” of the average non-convert over the same time period. (Might have been earlier-converted or cradle). I wonder if the attrition rate is the same or different
Regarding the increase in baptisms: There are people who converted into the GOA who wanted to be baptized but were refused and told they could only be received by chrismation. I wonder how many people fall into that category and if the GOA has changed their policy to more baptism-inclined?
I can't speak for other parishes, but mine is in the deep coastal South. We have bare minimum 2 brand new people every Sunday, its wild. Just two years ago we were a mission parish without a full time priest, and now we have a priest full time and here soon we're going to have to get a new church building to accommodate everyone, a great problem to have! As to their demographics, 90% of converts weve had are young men. The other 10% are families.
"One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism."
John 17-the High Priestly prayer, really hit home.
many of the new converts I’ve spoken with over the past four years (almost all young adult men) hear the online discussion most often led by Fr. Peter Heers about only Orthodox baptism being valid and decide to play it safe so and opt to be baptized again. Not saying this is correct or not but it’s what’s happening on the ground so to speak from my experience.
Peter Heers is basically a fundamentalist in vestments.
I visited a local Orthodox church because I wondered about why some people take interest.
I took interest after reading about Orthodox and TLM Catholic calling Pascal's Wager a Protestant heresy. That got my ibterest because I was stuck with the hellfire and brimstone crowd.
I told the man that I visited because I was stuck with the Southern Baptist Convention aligned types and I didn't like it. I asked him if he understood that. He said that of course he does, he grew up in Arkansas.
I would call myself an agnostic type. I see it is God's existence is not knowable to me. Maybe I'll get it one day but I do not count on it.
I also took interest because if certain Christians are hated by the mainstream, I take interest. I am not fond of the mainstream of the USA.
I was shipped to Lakeside Christian School of Clearwater Florida to get hellfure and brimstobe sermons and some kind of academic edge. It gave me an extremely foul taste towards Christianity. I percived Catolocism the same way because angry Catholic school students going athiest is really common. I saw Catholocism as the same thing plus saints and even more rules.
I have heard that the guys who do not like where society has gone have looked into either Orthodox or TLM Catholic.
On the other hand, Orthodoxy isn’t ideological and isn’t itself an answer to “mainstream America”…whatever that is. I live in Portland, Oregon and few “Southern Baptist” types here. Orthodoxy offers correction & repentance to everyone, and isn’t culturally aligned. It’s counter-cultural, but that includes all cultures!
I was raised Catholic and eventually attended a TLM church. The TLM church actually sent me down the church history route and I wound up converting to Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just makes so much more sense - it feels rightly ordered.
One question I’d have is,
How many of the converts are still attending regularly, I.e. at least 2x per month?
Around me (From Turkey) lots of my brothers under the claws of islam finding the beauty of Christ Lord of All. Not just protestants or catholiks
I’m curious. Under reasons for converting, what’s the difference between theology and spirituality?
Being intellectually convinced of a doctrine vs being attracted to the praxis ie ways of prayer, liturgy, spiritual father etc
Didn't understand the question (perhaps I just missed how it's related to the video) but theology and spirituality are very much two sides of the same coin... The ways of prayer, liturgy, spiritual father etc. are all deeply rooted in theology, and true theology is essentially based on the lived experience of God's mysteries. Theology is a set of things we know about God, spirituality is more like the mind (phronema) through which these claims are understood and put in practice.
@@renee6989 you both have almost identical profile pictures
I was baptized into the Church on December 24 2023, so I probably wouldn't have been included in the 2023 survey.
What's the harm in baptizing twice? It's your confession. You no longer confess "I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."
Glory to God! ☦
Could part of the reason for increased baptisms be that the priests are now more narrowly defining which bodies have valid baptism? I'm thinking for instance could a priest say something like come on man the PC USA or the ELCA just aren't even valid churches anymore given the amount of perversions in those bodies and thus they will baptize converts where maybe in years past they would not have?
The bishop in a liberal Lutheran or Presbyterian Church may not even believe in a literal physical resurrection. At what point does a church become a non-church?
The decision on who to baptize & chrismate and who to just chrismate comes from the bishop, not the priest - but yes, that is likely a factor.
But aren’t all churches outside orthodoxy non-churches?
@@alexandria1663 Yes, good point.
@@makeitwithpam2795 This isn't done on an individual basis, is it? I imagine there's general direction given by the Bishop and an amount of judgment would be necessary by the Priest on and individual basis? Unless maybe, like ROCOR, the direction from the Bishop is to just baptize all converts.
From 5th grade to mid high-school, my mom and I attended a "non denom" (baptist and didn't know it) church. There was A LOT of single ladies. A few families like mine where dad didn't attend. A few where dads left and they were divorced but moms faithfully brought their kids. It wasn't any different at the other churches and pretty heavily talked about. Everyone talked about "where are all the men." This was early 2000s. I feel like it's changed "some" but what I'm hearing from other churches, there is no singles... singles just arent coming to church. Each church will have one or 2 random singles. 1 girl, 2 girls, 1 guy, 2 guys... among my very limited non Christian friends, not only are they not in church... they cant find anyone to date period.
I’m sure I’m a statistical anomaly, but I was at agnostic and I am 46 years old before I started attending an orthodox parish
God is good!
It would be amazing for you to just add to the study with more churches data to see more trends
You guys are going to need someone with a Statistics Background. Formulate some of your questions and get your data together. ANOVA Methodology is probably what you want.
FWIW: I've moved several times since converting. I'm still actively orthodox, but there's no way my original priest still knows that ;)
Are most people received around Pascha? I was received the week before Christmas
Makes me wonder if there are improper baptisms, God forbid?
The is only ONE baptism in someone's life, and it does not matter if it is performed by a heretic (st basil).
My bishop is extremely strict about this.
It's even in the Symbol of the Orthodox Faith (Nicene Creed if you're non-Orthodox).
St. Basil lays out the specific Heretics and Schismatics that were appropriate to receive by Chrismation. It isn't a wholesale group.
None of those groups exist anymore. And RC have drifted so far from the last major decree on Chrismation that it should be looked at again. And Asacerdotal Protestants according to the Service Books cannot be received by Chrismation.
And Baptism in the Orthodox Church is the "One Baptism". Not Baptisms performed in Heterodox Assemblies.
Chrismation can fill that lesser form out of Love if Baptism would be a stumbling block for the Heterodox Convert.
@@floridaman318 no bro it's a council cannon
@@acekoala457 only Bishops have the judgement and authority to interpret cannons, my Bishop says baptisms done in the name of the three persons are valid pretty much no matter what.
So are you saying that baptism in itself has no effect on the believer as the protestants say ie believers baptism? I'm confused here.
baptism isnt a magic spell, its via Gods grace. Its not going to damn you if a priest or bishop makes a mistake.
@@paulhagen1002 that wasn't my question. My question is that they are saying that they didn't see any proof that baptism had an effect on whether or not the convert stayed? I know in orthodoxy we believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, where we die and are resurrected with Christ and then later through chrismation are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We orthodox believe baptism to be salvafic where as the protestants believe its merely one attestation of faith on adulthood and doesn't save. So from there evidence...who is correct here?
Isn't it true that there are more inhabitants of Los Angeles than there are Orthodox in all of North America
At nearly 4 million, I think LA is nearly twice as large as the entire Orthodox Church in North America.
There are as many Catholics in the Diocese of Chicago as Orthodox in the entire country
Wow how concerning for all the rebaptisms. Reminds me of the Baptist churches.
I understand why the phrase "reading oneself into Orthodoxy" is used (it's short hand) but it is a bit dismissive.
My wife and I converted to Orthodoxy in late '80s. Left - for cause & reason - 2000. Returned last year. Returned for several intertwining reasons. Prominent for me was a slow, yet deep, theological "conversion" to the fundamentals of Orthodoxy which did not sink in the first time around.
Top of the list, the Essence/Energy Distinction. Converting the whole of myself to that was both unsettling and revolutionary. It changed the "fundamentals " of how I think, emote, exercise the will - to say the least. Had no choice but return.
Pleased this helped. As the Refrain goes: Glory to God in all things. He does meet us in the end, whatever the detour.
@RandomOccurrences
The future is religious
Is it true, father, that people received by baptism have had the exorcism prayers said over them whereas those received by chrismation only have not? Maybe recognition of that is a reason baptism has gone up?
@@Whaat-in-the-world This varies between bishops.
I have seen Chrismated Individuals receiving the Exorcism Prayers.
It's a mixed bag.
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Any statistics on those who convert to Orthodoxy later returning to their previous religion? I heard a statistic that something like 80% of converts to Islam leave Islam within five years. Be interesting to know if a similar phenomenon happens within Orthodoxy. From my observations I’d say it wouldn’t be anywhere near as bad as 80%.
Islam markets itself as something it isn't.
Reverts out of Islam are common because their Catechism sucks.
It is a good question and I hope we find the statistics on this phenomenon in Orthodoxy, if it indeed is a phenomenon at all. In my anecdotal experience, converts come to church with more consistency and regularity than those born into Orthodoxy, but there could be other factors at play there: for example most converts are single young adults and the average person born into Orthodoxy is more likely to be in a life stage where they have families and children that could interfere with church attendance. But at the same time, comparing the just families with children, the convert families I know are somewhat more regular and zealous than the families where one or both of the parents are born into Orthodoxy.
Just my anecdotal observations. It could definitely differ from parish to parish though.
I wonder how this compares to roman catholic. As EO and RC are the two fairly traditional denoms.
One is pre denominational
I wonder how many people go onto monastic life.
Both the GOA & OCA (who define respectively the bulk of orthodox churches in the US) accept new members who have previously baptized through chrismation. The GOA used to prosecute an anti-Catholic polemic and in the last century did not recognize Catholic sacraments but has since come around to the same standpoint the OCA has had from the days of the Russian Orthodox Mission in the XIX c., recognizing all Catholic sacraments including ordinations.
The sudden shift in Orthodox churches to reception of converts through baptism and not chrismation must be due to outside influences because it is not official policy of any jurisdiction I know of, including ROCOR. I suspect that online influencers like the Rev. Peter Heers own an outsize role in this sudden demographic shift. Heers prates endlessly to the effect of generalizing the specific practice of Mt. Athos (baptize ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out) as though it were the universal ‘Best Practice’.
ROCOR's standard since the 70s has been to Receive all Converts by Baptism unless the Bishop believes there is good cause otherwise.
I think the shift is due to Asacerdotal Protestants coming to Orthodoxy, which according to the Hapgood Service Book cannot be received by Chrismation due to their beliefs on Baptism and Communion.
@@acekoala457 I’ll consult the STS Book of Needs about the prots. I think Fr. Damick and Matthew agreed it might have to do withdraw unavailability of documents and the requirement for them in some jurisdictions. I think also rigorism like that espoused by Heers may have an outsize influence on converts requesting baptism.
@@floridaman318 what? It’s a BIG DEAL, a sacrament that makes entry into the Church possible. Without it you cannot become a member of the mystical body of Christ.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972
The Book of Needs allows for Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians to be received by Chrismation. Baptists and Anabaptists are explicitly mentioned to be Received by Baptism, most Protestants in America are descended from some sort of Baptist Tradition. And the explanation for them not being eligible for Chrismation is that they don't believe in the Sacraments having the Holy Spirit.
And when the Book of Needs was written the first 3 groups were Sacerdotal Protestants, the Anglicans in America aren't really anymore, the Lutherans aren't outside of the 2 Conservative Branches and the Presbyterians have become openly Antisacerdotal even among the "Orthodox" Presbyterians.
And Blanket Baptism isn't a Rigorous Standard. It's a safe Standard for the state of Religion in America. And that's what ROCOR determined in the 70s and maintains even now.
(Edit) also I think if you're received from a Tradition that doesn't believe that Jesus is real you should be Baptised.
Im not orthodox, even though I was baptized as a child antiochian. I came back after years, due to my parents divorce i wasnt in church at a young age. But the way Ive been treated pushed me out. As an adult. Maybe my experince doesnt reflect all churches.
Because eunuch is not an accepted type of person. I hoped i could live a celibate life. But was told who/what I was. Was a sin against God. That my body was bad.
I am mainline now due to this rejection. Now the orthodox laypeople were kind to me. But the clergy had a problem with me. They did not like my appearance. But i did meet a visiting clergy person who was kind.
It makes me sad because my brother and mom are orthodox elsewhere. But I keep being told my body is sinful.
I have considered becoming benedictine through the episcopal church. As birth sex and bodies dont matter as much there. I want to worship in peace.
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I haven't watched the whole video, so maybe this is addressed later, but I read the study and this surge amounts to 5 converts per year per parish across 20 parishes over the last 10 years. Doesn't seem like a lot to me. Also 20 parishes is a very small sample size and it's dubious to me that you can draw any concrete conclusions from that. We also have the 2020 religion census that shows an overall decline in Eastern Orthodox adherents in the US and the global numbers showing that Eastern Orthodoxy represents less and less of the total amount of Christians around the world. I am still skeptical of this "big wave" of Orthodox converts.
5 converts a year on average would double most parishes in under 20 years. Thats exponential growth, if the # converts stays constant per parish.
@paulhagen1002 that is by definition not exponential growth. Taking 20 years to double already small parishes doesn't sound like explosive growth to me either. It also assumes no one leaves, which we shouldn't assume seeing the overall decline in EO numbers. Sorry I'm not trying to demoralize, I'm just very blackpilled on the state of Christianity.
Idk I can only look at my local parishes and the ones nearby.
Every single one I hear has seen a lot of growth.
The antiochan one near me just built a new church and it's so full now with inquirers that people have to be in the northex. And stand around the edges inside.
The parking lot is too small now as well.
Have yall talked about nicea 2025 yet.
Women until 50 years ago were never single. The problem isn't that "single women" aren't coming to church, the problem is that they are single. A "single woman" is already assuming the identity of "individual" which is a state of rebellion. Again, "Single women" does not describe a thing, it describes the lack of a thing . Your guy's aknowledgement of this false identification is actually complicit in the problem.
Stop asking why single women aren't converting and start asking why women aren't getting married.
Of course one can, and should, say the same thing about "single men."
@@BoBo0807 no
Back in those days were were called career women, spinsters, and crazy cat ladies.
Can you explain what you mean by a single woman being in a state of rebellion? I have never heard of anything like this in Orthodox writings or teachings. We have many pious single women in church, including those who become nuns.
@@OrthodoxFamilyLife I suppose some people heard of the Proverbs 31 woman or the Genesis command to go forth and multiply, and those are the verses they think of most.
I just ask "WWJD to money changers" when someone is extremely selective of their verses.
When the Single Women find out about Single Men going Orthodox, they will come. No one likes to be a Spinster Bachelorette for more than 10 years. Actually, the Orthodox Church is more Male-Friendly than most Churches. The Orthodox Church is the only Church that has 2nd Bass Parts in the Choir, or that needs them.
@@claytonbenignus4688
It's male-friendly in that it actually requires something of you and isn't just a "Weekend Emotional Drain".
First!
Matthew 23:8-10 KJV
[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
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