you should do one on the alternate outcomes of 1066 if Harold Godwinson stayed alive and pushed the Northmen and the Normans Back. Or if Harald Hardrada Conquered England and added it to the Norwegian Realm.
I love your nuanced view of the Mongols as more than mere marauders but also capable tacticians masterfully exploiting pre-existing conflicts and exploiting the greatest weakness of medieval Christianity I left some suggestions for future videos and I apologize if the list is too long
This might be the best alternative history video I've ever seen. For a brief second I was confused when hearing about Duke Bolesław the Horned, but then I realized you are talking about "Rogatka". That's actually brilliant! This particular Silesian Piast is one of the most colorful, yet little known (even in Poland) figures of this messy period of fragmentation of the Polish realm. I can totally imagine him rising to prominence by becoming the main Mongol collaborator in Poland.
@@WizardsandWarriors om so glad you guys were thorough on this video The mongols historically reached all the way to the jungles of veirnam and the islands of Indonesia But the misconception that mongoks were geld back by climate alone is wrong Also the Chinese had way more fortresses than Europe with a much larger population than Europe and was much more stable than Europe economically before the mongols invaded Song china lasted until khublai took the throne A politically divided land will have people looking for the own interests And I see the mongols taking advantage of their wealth to just buy loyalty at some points Chinese gunpowder and and bombs should definitely okay a role Along with tactical forms of warfare as crusades haven't been known for their surgical accuracy mostly lead by charismatic leaders
@@maddogbasil idk Mongols at that point themselves were split tho. They tried to take over arab lands failed .tried Europe failed .tried Vietnam failed ,India etc .clearly they couldn't do the whole China like invasions of million warriors anymore
@@wingedhussar1453 you mean before or after ogedai's death Cos this is when Batu and subutai were still alive Oghedai was on the thrones Monke hadn't yet taken the throne and their wasn't yet the controversial khurultai that split them on the first place So yh they do still have the the capability and the unity
But still it has flaws, for example it overlooks the fact that prūši lacked leadership. Had their revolt against the germans been sucessful they would have propably joined Lietuva, which isself was a tribal confderation of all baltic tribes that didnt fall to the germans. And prūši would certainly not come to rule kuršu, zemgaļu and žemaišu lands, which would also be either independant or join Lietuva.
Ideas for future alternative history -Alexander the Great lives pass 30 -Hannibal wins the battle of Zama -No Byzantine -Sassanid war before the Arabic invasion -Julius Caesar invasion of Parthia -Fourth crusade actually going to the Holy land
WOW, this was so epic. I'm usually not the biggest fans of alternative history, but this video totally blew my mind. I had to remind myself that I'm watching a "what if", it was so believable and well written. The battle was one for the history books... I was waiting for some faint retreat, but they couldn't pull it off this time. Amazing work as always, writing, animation, everything. And damn, Daniel confronting Orda here 12:51 and getting slapped in the face :D That was a nice touch.
@@georgekolev9832 Thank you for responding as well and providing such an interesting fact. It's astounding how much research was put into the creation of this video. It can be felt throughout, the characters are so alive and their actions feel real. It is like reading a fantasy novel, a perfect addition to Wizards and Warriors
Most althistories involving the Mongols usually have them steamrolling over Europe, so the fact you included a European Ain Jalut is so much more badass
There's no way they could have. Just fighting Hungary and Poland they suffered massive losses. Once they went against a combined western army in terrain that didn't suit them, they would have been destroyed
They still can steamroll it, fo me this rather like Ain Jalut looked more like Samara Bend. Todays win will just anger the enemy and make it return more powerful.
This isn't an Ain Jalut; the Mongols have more armies in the field and commanders other then Orda. Its gonna be a lot more hard fighting before the Mongols look even close to beaten.
@@PoetofHateSpeech I partially agree. All of Eastern Europe and significant amounts of Central Europe would be seized but they’d be stalemated and turned back the more west they got. However, I doubt any sort of reconquista of the east would happen.
Oh man. This was amazing! The detail presented was something to be inspired by. Alternate History is a favorite subject of mine, and this has won me ten times over. 5/5 Stars
I shal bring your attention to this overlooked detail prūši lacked leadership, so had their revolt against the germans been sucessful they would have propably joined Lietuva, which isself was a tribal confderation of all baltic tribes that didnt fall to the germans. And prūši would certainly not come to rule kuršu, zemgaļu and žemaišu lands, which would also be either independant or join Lietuva.
Wow, I think this channel is going to be *extremely* popular with alternate history videos like this! Incredible quality, I was riveted to the screen. :D
@@WizardsandWarriors Bruh dont doubt it bro you just have less views rn cause you posted this in 2nd channel, you fr gonna be the best alternate history ytber out there
A while back a friend and myself speculated about what if the Mongols returned. He thought they would make it to the Sea. I thought the wooded terrain of Western Europe would make it too difficult, but if they did, the Empire would be over stretched and could not hold on to Europe very long. I can't wait to see what your solution is. This has to be one of the most imaginative sites on UA-cam. Keep up the good work!
The lack of success they had against Hungarian stone castles and garrisons shows the Mongols probably couldnt deal with Western fortifications: which were very far ahead of anything in the East.
There's no way they could have. Just fighting Hungary and Poland they suffered massive losses. Once they went against a combined western army in terrain that didn't suit them, they would have been destroyed
One of my favourite alternative history but my no.1 suggestion is :- *_"What if the Eastern Roman Byzantine and the Sassanian Persian Empire had not fought irrationally for 26 years, would they have been able to stop the Arab Muslims?"_*
it would be awesome and very interesting this alternative history!! probably the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanian Empire would become two major power in the middleages and also in the modern history! Without the Arab threat the Byzantines could concentrated to the west, reconquering Italy from the Lombards and defending the balkans from slavs invasions, developing in a great power. And maybe the Byzantine empire wouldt have lived the dark ages like the rest of europe with the surviving of cities and urban life like in the late antiquity.
Eastern Rome:Hey nice job fighting the Arabs Sassanids: Hey you too Eastern Rome:.... Sassanids:..... Eastern Rome: So want to continue our Grudge Match for another Seven Hundred Years Sassanids: FUCK YEAH!
Maybe but the Muslims had one of the greatest military commanders of all time on their side so they would definitely expand at the expense of the 2 empires
I love a good "What if" and this one was particularly good. I actually felt that this really happened. Yet I know it didn't. Great job Wizards and Warriors. Can't wait for your next video in this series.
Was about to question this vid’s placement on the channel but then I remembred that this is an alternate universe/what it fantasy scenario. Great idea for a start of new vids and makes me wonder what kind of scenarios we could get for the future.
A fun alternative history series would be some kind of war between the Roman Empire vs. Imperial Han China. This scenario is kind of like the Superman vs. Goku match-up but for ancient world history haha. It would be much more difficult to develop this scenario than the current video series since there would be more variables and speculation involved, but I can't think of any other people I'd want more to try this scenario since you all are so masterful and thoughtful in what you do. It also gives an opportunity to do a comparative analysis of both empires side-by-side, providing education for those who may be more familiar with the details of one empire more than the other.
Literal fucking chills with the last letter, reminded me the first time I got the message to go on a crusade in Total war Medieval 2, I'm so pumped for the next installment. Going against the heavy weights of Europa, may Tengri light your way.
The Holy Bible may preach peace, but when it is Christendom itself that is threatened, then it is every Christian's duty to defend all that is holy. His Holyness the Pope has called a Crusade to reclaim Europe from the Mongols, who would destroy the Christian kingdoms and holy places. It is time for the armies of Christendom to put aside their differences and unite under one banner - the sign of the Cross - and give back God's children what is rightfully theirs! *OR DIE TRYING*
This is what worries me about history, after certain amount of time people start cheering on monsters. The Mongols committed the worse genocides in history. I worry one day idiots like this will unironically cheer on Stalin, Hitler and Hirohito.
Please! Make! More! Alternate! History! Videos! Like! This! This was among the best Alternate History videos I've seen. Really felt like I was in some kind of alternate present, reading a history book about events of the past. Never been more immersed in an Alternate History Scenario.
You actually did it. You made Bela IV even more tragic than he already was IRL. I hope you guys write it so that he survives, but I honestly doubt it. Also, love how you had other real historical figures and groups act in the face of a renewed Mongol invasion, including Daniel of Ruthenia capitulating and then betraying Orda, Nevsky and Mindaugus collaborating, and even Wenceslaus getting a victory against the Mongols. Not to mention, I like how the Prussians got a second lease on life thanks to the Mongols. As for what might happen next, I do think the Mongols will fail to conquer Europe, but mostly due to Europe being on the periphery, and maybe in part due to the many fortresses in the West and the generally wooded terrain throughout most of the HRE. There's no way in hell they're getting to the British Isles, if their IRL invasion attempts on Japan have anything to say, not to mention that the English were actually good at naval warfare, and Scandinavia will also likely be a tough nut to crack because the terrain is not particularly well-suited to their cavalry armies and because the Norse kingdoms have a pretty strong naval tradition. Finally, I appreciate that this alt history highlights that when the Europeans aren't shooting themselves in the foot tactically or strategically and are in the proper conditions to truly shine, that knights were among the best shock troops of their time and in direct combat were near unmatched.
I am quite worried that Louis the IXth is ruling in France... I hope some sound mind is gonna be able to advise him to relent from a reckless chiavalry charge into the Mongol Horde. Feigned retreat etc, France has enough historical embarassement with its military "élan"...
This was great. Y'all captured the feel and dialogue of the times and made a dramatic presentation of battle and rallying cry in that last message. I'll be tuning in to the next one for sure.
This channel is so fucking underrated. This was pure gold. Already i am brainstorming on where this story is going keep up this amazing work guys. Both your channels are highlights of my days.
Absolutely loved this! This is a scenario some talk about, but no one has the ability to turn into content, especially in such a believable and gripping way Everything from the writing to the animation is chef's kiss, keep it up 💯
For a brief second I read the title as Morgoth (LOTR) Attacked Central Europe - Alternative History, and got really pumped thinking I was gonna see orcs invade Europe.
Well it all depends WHEN is Morgoth attacking. Let's say it has to be before the generalisation of firearms to keep it consistant with his usual first age opponents. I would say Europe would stand the best chance either as a united late medieval (without Balrogs or Dragons no amount of orcs can withstand a full on knights' charge), or as an early Roman Empire. Augustus would be wise enough to recognize the threat, and if Agrippa is still around.... Angband itself may not be protected enough...
@@Cancoillotteman Caesar would build WALLS around Angband to keep Morgoth contained. He dealt with the Gauls at Alesia, orcs are nothing. As for the dragons, pull a Dorne.
That three pronged attack on the Mongols was devastating, but it's crazy that despite being completely surrounded, the Mongols gave one hell of a fight, showing just how powerful they are. Though I'm going to guess that they're gonna start to meet real resistance all across Europe now even if they're not fully united via a crusade or the sorts. Also, this alternate history series are gonna rise in popularity if you guys cover more famous 'what ifs' like Julius Caesar not getting assassinated, maybe the third crusade with Fredrick Barbarossa, perhaps if Justinian suceeded in restoring the Roman empire, or even Europe if the Axis powers actually won... I would love more!
Now you're doing alternate history, awesome! Hope you do more of these such as what if Alexander didn't die young,if the HRE became centralized, if Caesar wasn't killed and maybe even you guys could tackle the fossilised horse of what if Germany won WW2. And what if Tamerlane was immortal (or at least if he had reached China.
The Hre wasn’t more decentralized then it’s counter parts before the early modern era at which point they just didnt do the same that France or Spain did to centralize.
This is amazing. When watching this yesterday, I enjoyed it so much I needed to tell my dad an abridged version of this, read all the comments that were up by the time just before I went to sleep, and then re-watch it first thing today. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to more.
Favorite content y’all have made. I’ve seen all the Kings and Generals videos and have always hoped for an alternative history video. The depth of your videos really lends to a great alternate history story. Please keep these up. Also when’s the next episode? I’ve been checking pretty much daily.
This can be considered one. Who knows what will happen to Bulgaria and Rûm, Byzantium's primary geopolitical obstacles, if the Mongol advance succeds or fails?
You guys should totally make some Army and Tactics type videos for this channel to kind of show off the different armies and such from various fantasy worlds and so on. I just think that something like that would be really awesome.
THANKS! After watching litteraly every single video on Kings and Generals, this was exactly what I was waiting for. Could you make after the Mongols another Video about an alternate Reality in which the Ottomans under Suleyman the maginificent took Vienna??? I think that would have been a mayor change in historY.
This was an amazing video and I can’t imagine how much research it must have taken!Major kudos to the K&G/W&W teams and I can’t wait to see more alt history from you guys!
I love this alternative history program, well made! Though I find it a bit unrealistic, or very irrational of him suffice to say, that ruler of Galich-Volyn so hastily betrayed the mongols, given the army he helped to destroy was just small portion of the whole mongol expeditionary army. It was certain his betrayal will be soon found out and harsh retribution will fall on his realm.
How am I just now seeing this? I’m subscribed but that bell button does the trick I guess:/ this was amazing. The amount of detail makes alternate history seemed like IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED😂
I love the main channel. I didn’t know this channel existed till recently and the variety of videos has me excited especially with LOTR videos. And now alternate history? with Mongols?? y'all have me hooked line and sinker
The best part is how many times I got mad, and was beginning to "check the interwebs;" before I remembered this wasn't Kings and Generals. Well done. I can't wait to see the next two episodes.
I was skeptical at first, that despite being a bit of a Mongol fanboy myself, it would be unrealistically tilted towards the Mongols. But so far, this is pretty good.
@@georgekolev9832 Yeah, I think you did a pretty good job not portraying it "unrealistically" as one side getting all the breaks or only one side suffering internal conflicts etc. Definitely looking forward to the next part of the series 👍
This alternative history project is a great idea with superb execution! I think obvious candidates would be the Mongol invasion of Tsushima contrasted with the story of the video game Ghost of Tsushima. Or the Assassin's Creed games contrasted with the actual history of the periods they depict. For example, Assassin's Creed Valhalla is about the viking invasions of England which would be interested to see contrasted with the actual history to see, in detail, where actual history and the game diverse, perhaps with further alternative takes mixed in. Keep up the great work!
Ottomans are gonna need a couple of these. Theirs so many points where things could’ve gone wild, the first siege of Vienna, the second, the Crimean War, Russo-Turkish war of 1878, 1st Balkan war etc… I’m so excited to see what you guys are gonna make!
You guys always deliver! I'm a huge fan of Alternative History done right and while I also like what you are doing with 100% fantasy work, I can't wait to see more of this! One humble albeit vague request: you are one of the few "big" channel that actually did splendid work on byzantine history. As a fan of the Byzantines myself I'd love to see more and what better occasion for some good old "alternative history"? Random topics that comes to mind: - What if the Byzantine won in Manzikert? (more like: what if they held firm in Anatolia) - What if the Komnenos plan to join Byzantium and Hungary under one ruler succeeded? - What if a Byzantine Dynasty managed to consolidate power and rework the whole state to avoid the so common rebellions that put the Empire in danger so many times? - What if the Crusades went how the Byzantine envisioned? - What if the Fourth Crusade failed? (and I add: they end up in a better situation financially to make it more interesting afterwards) - What if the Palaiologos managed to convert the whole state to Catholicism? (and secured strong alliance in the west to help keep Anatolia?) - What if the Byzantines managed to assimilate the Ottomans, thus keeping their powerbase in Anatolia? (and how the byzantine society had to change to accomodate the, allegedly, new co-rulers?) (and this one is a real treat) - What if the Byzantines converted to Islam when they were almost overrun? (this needs a very big if and a lot of conditions must be changed, like a bigger "spread" of the religion among the common peoples of the empire, general low power of the Church and an occasion to use this conversion to gain legitimacy in the east and new possible alliances)
You should look at some of the battles in the Wheel of Time books. I’d really like to see a video on either the Battle of the Field of Merrilor, Battle of the Tarendrell, or Dumai Wells
Maybe even a small one about the defense of Emonds field. Or the battle at Cairhien with the 2 opposing Aiel factions. Honestly there are several battles that can come to mind.
I have to say that I normally really dislike alternative reality videos but this is completely different. An absolutely fantastic video packed with historical facts. Really looking forward to the rest of the series. Truly love your work!
Interesting 🤔 👍 You think you could do one about the Roman empire, never splitting nor falling? Also would be amazing to see all of Greece united and took over Europe after repelling king Xerxes. Sorry to keep adding and editing, but this topic has got me so stirred up and amazed that I can’t resist. Excellent job wizards.
6:16 It's truly amazing just how vulnerable Europe was to invasion in the 1240s. King Louix IX and France, even though he had started mobilizing his army, had only a few thousand knights (at best). The Holy Roman Empire was split in two between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. Maybe if they could unite against a common enemy they could stand a chance, but Emperor Frederick II was away, campaigning in Italy. There wasn't even a pope for Christendom to unite behind from 1241 to 1243!
@WizardsandWarriors how do you workout the battles and reaction of other characters in this alternative history? Is it gamed out using a particular gaming system or is it supisition and assumed narrative? I love the new channel and this video has been one of my favorites! I'm curious on the process of it's creation.
The battle in this video seems loosely based on a fake news battle written about back then about a Bohemian force defeating the Mongols and stopping their advance. The other major Central European figures in this video were also involved in various ways in scrambling the initial defense force against the Mongols in case they continued west from Hungary (though the Lithuanian conflict with the Teutonic Knights was in a separate theater.) In real life there was even some success in organizing a crusade to intercept them, but the Mongols never ventured westward except for a few very tiny raiding parties that were put down without the main European army. So long story short, WaW seem to base things on the real reactions of these figures to the threat of a Mongol invasion with some conjecture based on our hindsight on their true capabilities or loyalties. In which case it remains questionable if the Pope's call for a crusade will actually resonate with many kingdoms, or if he and Emperor Frederick II can put aside their differences as in real life they still could not.
Would y’all do any other alt history videos? Like Majorian succeeding is saving the western Roman Empire? A more successful reciqneust by Justinian? Alexander living longer and his empire with him? Or more modern ones? Like communism failing in China? Gorbachev saving the Soviet Union? Alternate WW1? Italy joining the Allies in ww2?
Nice take, but i think still, past 1242 Capetian power in france was at one of it's peaks, so they could, after making peace with neighbours, really push back
Excellent alternative history. Gripping telling and despite the fight back the issue still very much in doubt. Given the varied leadership of the time it will be interesting to see how the three main players Louis IX of France, Henry III of England and stupor mundi (the wonder of the world) Emperor Frederick II of the HRE will act. Louis is the only reliable Crusader, Henry is a non entity militarily but Englishmen like William Longsword did go on Louis' 7th Crusade so there could be some unity between the English and French response. The big question will be Frederick. The man was brilliant but he was also not to be trusted and incredibly selfish and self interested. He abandoned Hungary but still took the Mongol threat seriously. A letter written by Emperor Frederick II, found in the Regesta Imperii, dated to 20 June 1241, and intended for all his vassals in Swabia, Austria, and Bohemia, included a number of specific military instructions. His forces were to avoid engaging the Mongols in field battles, hoard all food stocks in every fortress and stronghold, and arm all possible levies as well as the general populace. Was he intending a Fabian strategy to wear down the Mongols? Frederick did send letters to both Louis and Henry regarding a Crusade but who would lead it and how much would Frederick commit to his own defence in the field will never be known. Interesting to see how this will turn out.
@@MDP1702 Different Frederick. Emperor Fred II is still alive and doing his own thing (and still excommunicated). Probaly the Pope will make a deal to lift it yet again if Fred actually does something for the benefit of Europe. I feel that Louis IX will be the uniting force rather than the emperor and as long as he doesn't bring his idiot brother Robert of Artois he should be able to beat the Mongols. However I am guessing Robert will spoil this brother's careful plans and doing someting impetuous as he did in real life.
@@MDP1702 No Fred II did not die. He's excommunicated and having trouble in Italy but in Germany he has been preparing defences for the past two years (and letting the eastern states burn).
I remember reading about Frederick's contingency plans for potential further Mongol expansion, it's much smarter than to try for a decisive field battle especially since the odds are stacked against the European style of warfare right now. While knights can hold their own and keep up to some extent with mobility, the large numbers of infantry will be far less useful and incapable of forcing a fight unless the enemy is cornered like what happened in this video. The Mongols are also better equipped than similar enemies in the past as they also field plenty of heavy lancers instead of being just horse archers, and so they are not as easy to break as say the Seljuks. That said, hunkering down carries some drawbacks such as giving the enemy all the initative in where he picks his battles, and you can't order a total shutdown as key cities must still be supplied to withstand persistent sieges. Whether this is offset by being able to constantly harass them (probably easier for the slower Mongol subjects than the actual Mongols themselves as seen in this video) remains to be seen.
@@perrytran9504 Admire him or despise him Frederick II was no fool and very pragmatic. I away he was as sensible a military commander as Richard Lionheart. Both men realised that you could not fight in the normal open battle both were used to in Western Europe. You had to control the battlefield as Richard did at Arsuf, tightly controlling your knights and protecting them behind a wall of spear and crossbows. Frederick enlarged on that with his defence in depth plan, letting others wear down the Mongols as they advanced toward his territories (not very honourable and bad luck to the Hungarians and the Poles but that was Freddy for you). Yes it will be interesting to see how the producers envisage Frederick's defence against the advancing Mongols.
Great video, I've long been fascinated by Mongol history, it's so deep and there is always more to learn. You folks know your source material so well, this was fantastic.
DEUS VULT! DEUS VULT! This is an awesome video! Can't wait and I am excited for the next ones! I seriously got goosebumps with the final few minutes as the crusade was called. Wonderful storytelling. What would happen next? This is the rallying cry for Christiandom's Finest hour! Let us see what would happen! Of course, the Mongols would not be out of this fight yet, no doubt the death of the first grandchild of the great Genghis Khan would enrage the Mongols. inspiring them with the desire to grind Chrisitiandom into the ground. 'From a record of the Seventh Crusade The year 1246 in the Year of our Lord, the Battle of Olomouc ended in a victory for Christiandom. Our Holyness gave an urgent plea for the rulers of Christiandom to unite to drive the Tatars back from Europe. As a result of the brave stand, word has spread like wildfire and thousands of warriors flocked together to take up the cross. From The Iberian peninsula to Italy, England to France, from Scandinavia to the Holy Roman Empire, all heard the word of our Vicar of God to the cause! The expeditions to the Holy Land are on hold, what use is a holy city if Christiandom is destroyed? Even after I write this, I a humble monk have made the decision to join the crusade as a Holy Knight of God in one of the military orders.' I do wonder what is going to happen? It all depends on which side conquers their inner demons I believe. The Kingdoms of Medieval Europe have an inconsistent track record on the treatment of minority groups; Jews, pagans, and other Christians and such. Which might cause them to look at the Mongols. However the Mongols may be religiously tolerant, they can be jerks to those who are not Mongols. Also, the Mongols have little problems with rallying behind a strong leader, whereas the kings of Europe have a tendency to quarrel with one another at the worse times. Regardless, the result will shape the world for centuries to come.
Another thing in Europes advantage is their ability to retreat behind castles etc, lure the mongols deeper in, execute ambushes and guerrila warfare and more easy replenishment of troops and supplies. Also the Mongols have a serious weakpoint, if they lose too many battles, even when overall slowly driving Europe's forces back, their tributaries might see an opening to get rid of them, considering the threat of Mongol arms is the only thing really keeping them in check. If this happens, they might even do more stabbing in the back, like the Ruthenians now. The mongols need to win pretty decisively and make a clear example of what happens if you oppose them.
I remembered that I mentioned about alternate history on Kings and Generals sometime but given up on that for like years now. But suddenly, this video appeared and reignited my hope of seeing other alternate scenarios on one of the best history and fantasy's channels on UA-cam! So thank you so much for creating this video! Question: Why the fractured Byzantine/Roman remnants did not ally themselves with the Mongols to retake Constantinople? Don't they shared the same enemy that is the Franks, aka Western Christians?
@@georgekolev9832 And do you guys have plans for the little simpler alternate history scenarios in the future? For example, Russia did not sell Alaska and the White Army and the Romanov's relatives fled there and established their anti-communist rule after the revolution broke out a few generations later. The other example would be the Ottoman Empire survived World War I, modernized and get rich by the oil discovered in Arabia, annexing Arabia, join World War II on the side of the Allies to retake locations such as Rhodes and Libya back from Italy and because the Ottoman Empire is still around, the Middle East is not a mess like in our timeline. So what do you guys think? Are these scenarios possible? Heck, can they even be part of the same timeline?
@@georgekolev9832 I understand. I am only hoping that my ideas such as Tsardom of Alaska and the Ottoman Empire survived World War I will helped attract more audiences to come if they became part of the voting polls.
19:48 "Remember Vienna!" At last, Europe is aroused to join forces and send an army to destroy the Mongols. But if that army is destroyed, Europe will be defenseless... I can't wait for the next installment of this series!
Though European forces could more quickly replenish troops, especially levied once. And overall speaking knights are also more likely to survive if it comes to a rout/retreat (unless surrounded ofcourse).
@@MDP1702 The problem is levied troops are worth much less than knights especially against an enemy like the Mongols. They could probably do okay at defending cities but simply won't be good enough for taking the initiative due to rough training and poor mobility. This was actually the exact problem the earlier Chinese dynasties struggled with against the nomads pre-dating the Mongols - any conscript can be taught to shoot a crossbow and hold a spear okay, but no training will allow him to chase the nomads down or force them to fight. At best he can be used to hold territory and hope to deter the enemy from attacking where he currently is. For that there was no substitute to training their own professional cavalry units.
@@perrytran9504 *but simply won't be good enough for taking the initiative due to rough training and poor mobility.* In rought terrain the mongols also would already be at a disadvantage. Besides the main reason for the levies at this time would be as reserves, ambush or just to keep the enemy busy while the knights attack or support the knights after their attack. Also the first wave of levies are likely only needed once the normal troops are thinned out, but the same goes for the mongols, once their experienced troops have taken losses, they'll need to be replaced by inexperienced troops. *but no training will allow him to chase the nomads down or force them to fight.* Which is why you don't do that. The mongols are the ones that need to conquer Europe, they'll get bogged down in siege after siege, they can't retreat everytime a relief army appears, then they'd get nowhere. *At best he can be used to hold territory and hope to deter the enemy from attacking where he currently is.* Which is exactly what European castle warfare is aimed at: slowing/tieing down the opponent while a large relief army can be assembled. If the mongols retreat everytime such an army appears, they'll get nowhere and if they do give battle, it likely won't be on favorable terrain and against a larger better supplied army. I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of European havy knights, in total we are likely talking between 50-100k knights. France alone could field something like 10k without touching their reserves.
Yup this is a masterpiece 👏 and I like it however guys can we have an alternative history for what if the Napoleon won the war against the sixth coalition 😅
I am ALL KINDS OF DOWN for this kind of content. The in depth historical analysis you are famous for married to the great “what ifs” in history. Absolutely fire. 🎉🎉🎉
I'm speechless & this is the most realistic alternate history ever, i can imagine how terrifying the situation was, i can imagine the kings, nobles, monks, priest, pope and peasants in europe thinking that the end of the world was near, and the last part with the pope rallying message was epic!! Here my whistlist : 1.Still about mongol, What would happen if there was no tornado in second Mongol Invasion in Japan especially in kyushu region. 2. What if Tokugawa Shogunate won the Boshin war and modernize or at least the battle ended stalemate with the Imperial court, Choshu and Satsuma faction forced to sign a humiliating treaty. 3. What if USA & South Korean won the korean war and korean united 4. Inspired by Koei games Kessen I & III What if The west army ( Ishida Mitsunari ) Won the battle of Sekigahara and leading to the ficitonal battles in kanto region. and What if Oda Nobunaga manage to survive & escape from Honnoji.
At any timeline given, our brave king Daniel of Galicia would've never serve the Mongol barbarians for too long, in comparison to his distant cousin - Alexander "Nevskiy", the loyal kisser of the Khan's boot, who, while been trying to deal with his brother Andrew, had called one more Horde invasion to Rus, which was even more devastating then Batu's one)))
@@adamnesico in our timeline, he meticulously played his game, creating a visibility of obedience to the Khan for to avoid one more invasion, but simultaneously obtaining the crown from the Pope.
@@adamnesico the situation might not be so dire as if it is shown here - one wing of the Mongol army is annihilated and the whole Europe is uniting under the banner of the new Crusade. In this timeline Crusades 5-7th might be made against the Horde, not Saracens. And, above all, what I've been trying to say that king Daniel was not so deeply loyal to Mongols as his relatives to the North were. In his case, it was just a maneuver to preserve his lands, not willingly obedience. And it caused one of the main cracks between us, Ukrainians, and moskovites - we're political descendants of the Great Dutchy of Lithuania and Rzeczh Pospolita, they - of the Horde.
@@artemo.shapovaloff5577 Its really dire, they have annihilated just 1 tumen, that will anger the other 11. Volga bulgars too achieved a victory, what they made was just anger the mogols and make them return far more powerful and be annihilated. See what mogols made with th epeople that angered them. Once the news arrive to the others, they will make a punish expedietion, and the volynians will fade from existance. No rutenians in this timeline> No Ukraine as we know it. If Daniel was really loyal to his people he would have remained loyal here, he has brought the end to them. Oh,yes, and we know how succesful were those crusades.
To all the "But the Castles!" and "But the Forests!" arguments. You think there were no castles in China or the khazar khaganate [Khwarazmian Empire, i got my Ks mixed up]? Yes, medieval castle building came to a high point right around that time but it takes time and $$ to build castles and most castles fell due to siege. If the Mongols swept the battlefield how long with the castles last? Does anyone think there were no forests in China? the Mongols were stymied by the DENSE jungles of Vietnam and Burma, terrain more difficult then most German forests. The Mongols even took to the seas to invade Japan and Java. Why would thick forests alone stop them? Finally, it is possible the damp of central and western Europe made their composite bows less effective; the glue came loose.
Khazars were already wiped be4 the mogols. Learn more history. The forest and castle density in China was far lower than Europe. Song dinasty feared an inner uprising, too despised militr affairs, so it had few fortresses. If mogols can keep the europeans as allies, they can use them for siege the castles. If they dont, and church is likely to deny them help, wont be esy to submit thousands of castles. Dont understimate german forests, one uncle of mine has been on the bed fr months just for hiking in german forest and get bitten by a bug. Yeah, moisture is another factor against them. Mogols didnt were so effective in humid battelgrounds.
🎲Check out Rule of Chaos Kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/ruleofchaos/rule-of-chaos-demonic-5e
you should do one on the alternate outcomes of 1066 if Harold Godwinson stayed alive and pushed the Northmen and the Normans Back. Or if Harald Hardrada Conquered England and added it to the Norwegian Realm.
BRUH!
I love your nuanced view of the Mongols as more than mere marauders but also capable tacticians masterfully exploiting pre-existing conflicts and exploiting the greatest weakness of medieval Christianity
I left some suggestions for future videos and I apologize if the list is too long
Awesome 👌
5:07 there is an error in the upload
Fantastic work. Your production quality is incredible as always. Great job on this. More need to see it
Thank you very much! Coming from you, it is a high praise!
@@WizardsandWarriors you should have posted this in your main channel so more views
@@mariorodio5046 it would have taken away from the actual historical content which is the main focus of that channel so it is better like this
Alternate history hub/kings and generals cross over?
@@WizardsandWarriors are you planning batu’s line converting to Catholicism instead of Islam? And batu being named HRE as well as Tsar?
This is already one of the best alternate history videos of all time.
I absolutely agree. I had to remind myself that I'm watching an alternative scenerio. So well-written and animated. Amazing work
Couldn't agree more
But… what if it wasn’t?
This may be fun but bizarre as well.
Already better then Whatifalthist and Mesur Z
This might be the best alternative history video I've ever seen.
For a brief second I was confused when hearing about Duke Bolesław the Horned, but then I realized you are talking about "Rogatka". That's actually brilliant! This particular Silesian Piast is one of the most colorful, yet little known (even in Poland) figures of this messy period of fragmentation of the Polish realm. I can totally imagine him rising to prominence by becoming the main Mongol collaborator in Poland.
The author of this script researched all minor events extensively. I really like it. :-)
@@WizardsandWarriors om so glad you guys were thorough on this video
The mongols historically reached all the way to the jungles of veirnam and the islands of Indonesia
But the misconception that mongoks were geld back by climate alone is wrong
Also the Chinese had way more fortresses than Europe with a much larger population than Europe and was much more stable than Europe economically before the mongols invaded
Song china lasted until khublai took the throne
A politically divided land will have people looking for the own interests
And I see the mongols taking advantage of their wealth to just buy loyalty at some points
Chinese gunpowder and and bombs should definitely okay a role
Along with tactical forms of warfare as crusades haven't been known for their surgical accuracy mostly lead by charismatic leaders
@@maddogbasil idk Mongols at that point themselves were split tho. They tried to take over arab lands failed .tried Europe failed .tried Vietnam failed ,India etc .clearly they couldn't do the whole China like invasions of million warriors anymore
@@wingedhussar1453 you mean before or after ogedai's death
Cos this is when Batu and subutai were still alive
Oghedai was on the thrones
Monke hadn't yet taken the throne and their wasn't yet the controversial khurultai that split them on the first place
So yh they do still have the the capability and the unity
But still it has flaws, for example it overlooks the fact that prūši lacked leadership. Had their revolt against the germans been sucessful they would have propably joined Lietuva, which isself was a tribal confderation of all baltic tribes that didnt fall to the germans. And prūši would certainly not come to rule kuršu, zemgaļu and žemaišu lands, which would also be either independant or join Lietuva.
Ideas for future alternative history
-Alexander the Great lives pass 30
-Hannibal wins the battle of Zama
-No Byzantine -Sassanid war before the Arabic invasion
-Julius Caesar invasion of Parthia
-Fourth crusade actually going to the Holy land
Nohing would have changed if 4º crusade would had won, then would had still be expelled.
@@adamnesico The main change is that the Eastern Romans aren't destroyed in 1204.
- Basil II stabilizes the Byzantine succession
In order for Alexander to live past 30 he would probably have been taught by Aristotle to drink diluted wine.
@@haldemarest He also had lots of life threatening injuries which didn't help
WOW, this was so epic. I'm usually not the biggest fans of alternative history, but this video totally blew my mind. I had to remind myself that I'm watching a "what if", it was so believable and well written. The battle was one for the history books... I was waiting for some faint retreat, but they couldn't pull it off this time.
Amazing work as always, writing, animation, everything.
And damn, Daniel confronting Orda here 12:51 and getting slapped in the face :D That was a nice touch.
@@georgekolev9832 Thank you for responding as well and providing such an interesting fact. It's astounding how much research was put into the creation of this video. It can be felt throughout, the characters are so alive and their actions feel real. It is like reading a fantasy novel, a perfect addition to Wizards and Warriors
are you kidding when you say faint retreat?
@@andreiyy Feigned retreat?
Most althistories involving the Mongols usually have them steamrolling over Europe, so the fact you included a European Ain Jalut is so much more badass
There's no way they could have. Just fighting Hungary and Poland they suffered massive losses. Once they went against a combined western army in terrain that didn't suit them, they would have been destroyed
They still can steamroll it, fo me this rather like Ain Jalut looked more like Samara Bend.
Todays win will just anger the enemy and make it return more powerful.
This isn't an Ain Jalut; the Mongols have more armies in the field and commanders other then Orda. Its gonna be a lot more hard fighting before the Mongols look even close to beaten.
The Mongols literally conquered far stronger and more cunning foes. Geography would be the biggest factor and overreach.
@@PoetofHateSpeech I partially agree. All of Eastern Europe and significant amounts of Central Europe would be seized but they’d be stalemated and turned back the more west they got. However, I doubt any sort of reconquista of the east would happen.
Alternative history scenarios are so fascinating!
Really excited for this series!
@@georgekolev9832 Somehow I doubt that that will happen.
Oh man. This was amazing! The detail presented was something to be inspired by. Alternate History is a favorite subject of mine, and this has won me ten times over. 5/5 Stars
Thanks!
I shal bring your attention to this overlooked detail prūši lacked leadership, so had their revolt against the germans been sucessful they would have propably joined Lietuva, which isself was a tribal confderation of all baltic tribes that didnt fall to the germans. And prūši would certainly not come to rule kuršu, zemgaļu and žemaišu lands, which would also be either independant or join Lietuva.
@@WizardsandWarriors It is good just not perfect.
Wow, I think this channel is going to be *extremely* popular with alternate history videos like this! Incredible quality, I was riveted to the screen. :D
Hopefully :-)
@@WizardsandWarriors Bruh dont doubt it bro you just have less views rn cause you posted this in 2nd channel, you fr gonna be the best alternate history ytber out there
This is the best alternate history video ive ever seen. Really impressed by this and Im hyped for the next videos!
Somewhere in an alternate universe shortly after entering the Totenberg forest
"Sabutai, give me back my hordes!”
-Genghis Kahn, 1221
Absolutely hilarious
@@georgekolev9832 ah, so the europeans are going to lose in the next vid
@@matthiasbindl7085 against Germanicus Khan
A while back a friend and myself speculated about what if the Mongols returned. He thought they would make it to the Sea. I thought the wooded terrain of Western Europe would make it too difficult, but if they did, the Empire would be over stretched and could not hold on to Europe very long. I can't wait to see what your solution is. This has to be one of the most imaginative sites on UA-cam. Keep up the good work!
The lack of success they had against Hungarian stone castles and garrisons shows the Mongols probably couldnt deal with Western fortifications: which were very far ahead of anything in the East.
@@hia5235 It literally took them years to conquer central China which had terrain similar to Western Europe
@@hia5235 no it wasn't, China had better fortications, but still took the Mongols 80 years to conquer China
There's no way they could have. Just fighting Hungary and Poland they suffered massive losses. Once they went against a combined western army in terrain that didn't suit them, they would have been destroyed
@@alphagamer9505 No Europe had better fortifications at the time
One of my favourite alternative history but my no.1 suggestion is :-
*_"What if the Eastern Roman Byzantine and the Sassanian Persian Empire had not fought irrationally for 26 years, would they have been able to stop the Arab Muslims?"_*
it would be awesome and very interesting this alternative history!! probably the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanian Empire would become two major power in the middleages and also in the modern history!
Without the Arab threat the Byzantines could concentrated to the west, reconquering Italy from the Lombards and defending the balkans from slavs invasions, developing in a great power.
And maybe the Byzantine empire wouldt have lived the dark ages like the rest of europe
with the surviving of cities and urban life like in the late antiquity.
Eastern Rome:Hey nice job fighting the Arabs
Sassanids: Hey you too
Eastern Rome:....
Sassanids:.....
Eastern Rome: So want to continue our Grudge Match for another Seven Hundred Years
Sassanids: FUCK YEAH!
Love that idea!
@@marcus4046 the mongols or Turks would then be a major problem for Iran and Rome.
Maybe but the Muslims had one of the greatest military commanders of all time on their side so they would definitely expand at the expense of the 2 empires
I loved this! Good alternate history does not need very much to "stay real" all it needs is one key event, as you POD here demonstrates.
I love a good "What if" and this one was particularly good. I actually felt that this really happened. Yet I know it didn't. Great job Wizards and Warriors. Can't wait for your next video in this series.
Was about to question this vid’s placement on the channel but then I remembred that this is an alternate universe/what it fantasy scenario.
Great idea for a start of new vids and makes me wonder what kind of scenarios we could get for the future.
@@georgekolev9832 May I know how many people are working behind Kings & Generals channel? And this channel?
A fun alternative history series would be some kind of war between the Roman Empire vs. Imperial Han China. This scenario is kind of like the Superman vs. Goku match-up but for ancient world history haha. It would be much more difficult to develop this scenario than the current video series since there would be more variables and speculation involved, but I can't think of any other people I'd want more to try this scenario since you all are so masterful and thoughtful in what you do. It also gives an opportunity to do a comparative analysis of both empires side-by-side, providing education for those who may be more familiar with the details of one empire more than the other.
Unless Parthia fell and both rome and China moved in to loot the carcass, I don’t see how it could happen.
You have a small Persian problem to solve for this to happen ^^
But I get where your desire comes from
Literal fucking chills with the last letter, reminded me the first time I got the message to go on a crusade in Total war Medieval 2, I'm so pumped for the next installment. Going against the heavy weights of Europa, may Tengri light your way.
The Holy Bible may preach peace, but when it is Christendom itself that is threatened, then it is every Christian's duty to defend all that is holy.
His Holyness the Pope has called a Crusade to reclaim Europe from the Mongols, who would destroy the Christian kingdoms and holy places.
It is time for the armies of Christendom to put aside their differences and unite under one banner - the sign of the Cross - and give back God's children what is rightfully theirs!
*OR DIE TRYING*
@@resileaf9501 cue the unnecessary but totally badass cross formation.
@@georgekolev9832 empires will tremble in dispair and fall for the Kahn of kahns
This is what worries me about history, after certain amount of time people start cheering on monsters. The Mongols committed the worse genocides in history. I worry one day idiots like this will unironically cheer on Stalin, Hitler and Hirohito.
@@resileaf9501 Sheesh, reminds of me of the saying "He mobilized the English language and sent it to battle"
Please! Make! More! Alternate! History! Videos! Like! This! This was among the best Alternate History videos I've seen. Really felt like I was in some kind of alternate present, reading a history book about events of the past. Never been more immersed in an Alternate History Scenario.
I love this material, y’all need to do A LOT more of these!
this is becoming... fantasy
This I can tell is gonna be an amazing series! I can't wait to see the next episode!
@@georgekolev9832 Lmao that I have no doubt
You actually did it. You made Bela IV even more tragic than he already was IRL. I hope you guys write it so that he survives, but I honestly doubt it. Also, love how you had other real historical figures and groups act in the face of a renewed Mongol invasion, including Daniel of Ruthenia capitulating and then betraying Orda, Nevsky and Mindaugus collaborating, and even Wenceslaus getting a victory against the Mongols. Not to mention, I like how the Prussians got a second lease on life thanks to the Mongols.
As for what might happen next, I do think the Mongols will fail to conquer Europe, but mostly due to Europe being on the periphery, and maybe in part due to the many fortresses in the West and the generally wooded terrain throughout most of the HRE. There's no way in hell they're getting to the British Isles, if their IRL invasion attempts on Japan have anything to say, not to mention that the English were actually good at naval warfare, and Scandinavia will also likely be a tough nut to crack because the terrain is not particularly well-suited to their cavalry armies and because the Norse kingdoms have a pretty strong naval tradition.
Finally, I appreciate that this alt history highlights that when the Europeans aren't shooting themselves in the foot tactically or strategically and are in the proper conditions to truly shine, that knights were among the best shock troops of their time and in direct combat were near unmatched.
I am quite worried that Louis the IXth is ruling in France... I hope some sound mind is gonna be able to advise him to relent from a reckless chiavalry charge into the Mongol Horde. Feigned retreat etc, France has enough historical embarassement with its military "élan"...
This was great. Y'all captured the feel and dialogue of the times and made a dramatic presentation of battle and rallying cry in that last message. I'll be tuning in to the next one for sure.
This is the best alternate history scenario I’ve ever seen made, and I can’t wait for the sequel + other alternate history scenarios covered too!
This channel is so fucking underrated. This was pure gold. Already i am brainstorming on where this story is going keep up this amazing work guys. Both your channels are highlights of my days.
I love history, and alternate history is just as fascinating.
Keep them coming !
Absolutely loved this! This is a scenario some talk about, but no one has the ability to turn into content, especially in such a believable and gripping way
Everything from the writing to the animation is chef's kiss, keep it up 💯
This would make for an entertaining novel.
Call Conn Iggulden!
@@knightofsvea604 hahaha my thoughts indeed!
For a brief second I read the title as Morgoth (LOTR) Attacked Central Europe - Alternative History, and got really pumped thinking I was gonna see orcs invade Europe.
It isnt unfortunally fiction with orcs invading Ukraine..
@@vlastimilzlamal2982 then, just a orc civil war.
Probably just Morgoth having 500 nukes coming at him
Well it all depends WHEN is Morgoth attacking. Let's say it has to be before the generalisation of firearms to keep it consistant with his usual first age opponents. I would say Europe would stand the best chance either as a united late medieval (without Balrogs or Dragons no amount of orcs can withstand a full on knights' charge), or as an early Roman Empire. Augustus would be wise enough to recognize the threat, and if Agrippa is still around.... Angband itself may not be protected enough...
@@Cancoillotteman Caesar would build WALLS around Angband to keep Morgoth contained. He dealt with the Gauls at Alesia, orcs are nothing. As for the dragons, pull a Dorne.
That three pronged attack on the Mongols was devastating, but it's crazy that despite being completely surrounded, the Mongols gave one hell of a fight, showing just how powerful they are. Though I'm going to guess that they're gonna start to meet real resistance all across Europe now even if they're not fully united via a crusade or the sorts.
Also, this alternate history series are gonna rise in popularity if you guys cover more famous 'what ifs' like Julius Caesar not getting assassinated, maybe the third crusade with Fredrick Barbarossa, perhaps if Justinian suceeded in restoring the Roman empire, or even Europe if the Axis powers actually won... I would love more!
Now you're doing alternate history, awesome!
Hope you do more of these such as what if Alexander didn't die young,if the HRE became centralized, if Caesar wasn't killed and maybe even you guys could tackle the fossilised horse of what if Germany won WW2. And what if Tamerlane was immortal (or at least if he had reached China.
The Hre wasn’t more decentralized then it’s counter parts before the early modern era at which point they just didnt do the same that France or Spain did to centralize.
@@johnconnor8206 After the death of Frederick II the HRE was an empire only in name.
This is amazing. When watching this yesterday, I enjoyed it so much I needed to tell my dad an abridged version of this, read all the comments that were up by the time just before I went to sleep, and then re-watch it first thing today. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to more.
I really enjoyed this video and find it interesting to see the different scenarios people come up with within alt history.
@@georgekolev9832 yeah it's amazing to think about how close something came to happening or how improbable what actually happened was.
This series needs to keep going. It's amazing
Favorite content y’all have made. I’ve seen all the Kings and Generals videos and have always hoped for an alternative history video. The depth of your videos really lends to a great alternate history story. Please keep these up. Also when’s the next episode? I’ve been checking pretty much daily.
Awesome new spin on things. I would love to see some alternate Byzantine (Eastern Roman) history.
We definitely agree on that one
This can be considered one. Who knows what will happen to Bulgaria and Rûm, Byzantium's primary geopolitical obstacles, if the Mongol advance succeds or fails?
You guys should totally make some Army and Tactics type videos for this channel to kind of show off the different armies and such from various fantasy worlds and so on.
I just think that something like that would be really awesome.
This is a genre i have always wanted you guys to discover, thank god we are finally getting it.
18:09, damn, that gave me goosebumps!
Let's hope those Teutonic strongholds endure well enough till the end of this series!
Only been up on the site for less then a minute and I can already tell it’s gonna be a hoot and a holler.
Love the content on this and the Kings and Generals channel. Keep it up.
Now you all have started Alternate History? Oh my goodness This Channel deserves more attention.
I like the authentic-sounding historical quotes which you presumably made up for this video
THANKS! After watching litteraly every single video on Kings and Generals, this was exactly what I was waiting for. Could you make after the Mongols another Video about an alternate Reality in which the Ottomans under Suleyman the maginificent took Vienna??? I think that would have been a mayor change in historY.
congrats!! this felt so real, i'm astonished. Really wondering what your take is on the future progression of this timeline. Keep it up!
This was an amazing video and I can’t imagine how much research it must have taken!Major kudos to the K&G/W&W teams and I can’t wait to see more alt history from you guys!
This video was awesome, keep it up guys!
I love this alternative history program, well made! Though I find it a bit unrealistic, or very irrational of him suffice to say, that ruler of Galich-Volyn so hastily betrayed the mongols, given the army he helped to destroy was just small portion of the whole mongol expeditionary army. It was certain his betrayal will be soon found out and harsh retribution will fall on his realm.
Seeing the crusade turns to the mongol was so great alternative timeline
How am I just now seeing this? I’m subscribed but that bell button does the trick I guess:/ this was amazing. The amount of detail makes alternate history seemed like IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED😂
such an amazing job. it all felt quite real and possible with nothing seeming too off. kudos!
I wish to see more alternate history in the kings and generals style on this channel in the future.
I love the main channel. I didn’t know this channel existed till recently and the variety of videos has me excited especially with LOTR videos. And now alternate history? with Mongols?? y'all have me hooked line and sinker
The best part is how many times I got mad, and was beginning to "check the interwebs;" before I remembered this wasn't Kings and Generals. Well done. I can't wait to see the next two episodes.
Already GOAT 🐐 tier video. I can't wait for the next episode.
A crusade against the mongols? You have my attention. Great video and fascinating alternate history.
I was skeptical at first, that despite being a bit of a Mongol fanboy myself, it would be unrealistically tilted towards the Mongols. But so far, this is pretty good.
@@georgekolev9832 Yeah, I think you did a pretty good job not portraying it "unrealistically" as one side getting all the breaks or only one side suffering internal conflicts etc. Definitely looking forward to the next part of the series 👍
This is too awesome! Please focus on making more of these!!!
This alternative history project is a great idea with superb execution! I think obvious candidates would be the Mongol invasion of Tsushima contrasted with the story of the video game Ghost of Tsushima. Or the Assassin's Creed games contrasted with the actual history of the periods they depict. For example, Assassin's Creed Valhalla is about the viking invasions of England which would be interested to see contrasted with the actual history to see, in detail, where actual history and the game diverse, perhaps with further alternative takes mixed in. Keep up the great work!
After seeing how good this video is I really hope you do a lot more alternate history vids from now
Ottomans are gonna need a couple of these. Theirs so many points where things could’ve gone wild, the first siege of Vienna, the second, the Crimean War, Russo-Turkish war of 1878, 1st Balkan war etc…
I’m so excited to see what you guys are gonna make!
Or if they lost the Varna Crusade, or lost at Mohacs, or won at Ankara.
Fantastic job, great alternate history video.
Excellent video as always! Could you please after that story line to make a series about an Alexandrian invasion in Italy if Alexander hadn't died?
You guys always deliver!
I'm a huge fan of Alternative History done right and while I also like what you are doing with 100% fantasy work, I can't wait to see more of this!
One humble albeit vague request: you are one of the few "big" channel that actually did splendid work on byzantine history.
As a fan of the Byzantines myself I'd love to see more and what better occasion for some good old "alternative history"?
Random topics that comes to mind:
- What if the Byzantine won in Manzikert? (more like: what if they held firm in Anatolia)
- What if the Komnenos plan to join Byzantium and Hungary under one ruler succeeded?
- What if a Byzantine Dynasty managed to consolidate power and rework the whole state to avoid the so common rebellions that put the Empire in danger so many times?
- What if the Crusades went how the Byzantine envisioned?
- What if the Fourth Crusade failed? (and I add: they end up in a better situation financially to make it more interesting afterwards)
- What if the Palaiologos managed to convert the whole state to Catholicism? (and secured strong alliance in the west to help keep Anatolia?)
- What if the Byzantines managed to assimilate the Ottomans, thus keeping their powerbase in Anatolia? (and how the byzantine society had to change to accomodate the, allegedly, new co-rulers?)
(and this one is a real treat)
- What if the Byzantines converted to Islam when they were almost overrun? (this needs a very big if and a lot of conditions must be changed, like a bigger "spread" of the religion among the common peoples of the empire, general low power of the Church and an occasion to use this conversion to gain legitimacy in the east and new possible alliances)
You should look at some of the battles in the Wheel of Time books. I’d really like to see a video on either the Battle of the Field of Merrilor, Battle of the Tarendrell, or Dumai Wells
Dumai's Wells!! Ohhh...what a battle!
Maybe even a small one about the defense of Emonds field. Or the battle at Cairhien with the 2 opposing Aiel factions.
Honestly there are several battles that can come to mind.
@@MDP1702 I almost forgot about the Aiel Wars
I have to say that I normally really dislike alternative reality videos but this is completely different. An absolutely fantastic video packed with historical facts. Really looking forward to the rest of the series. Truly love your work!
Interesting 🤔 👍
You think you could do one about the Roman empire, never splitting nor falling? Also would be amazing to see all of Greece united and took over Europe after repelling king Xerxes. Sorry to keep adding and editing, but this topic has got me so stirred up and amazed that I can’t resist. Excellent job wizards.
An Alternate History channel would be pretty amazing
Are there any plans to continue alternate history in the near future after the Mongol Invasion of Western Europe series?
6:16 It's truly amazing just how vulnerable Europe was to invasion in the 1240s. King Louix IX and France, even though he had started mobilizing his army, had only a few thousand knights (at best). The Holy Roman Empire was split in two between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. Maybe if they could unite against a common enemy they could stand a chance, but Emperor Frederick II was away, campaigning in Italy. There wasn't even a pope for Christendom to unite behind from 1241 to 1243!
@WizardsandWarriors how do you workout the battles and reaction of other characters in this alternative history? Is it gamed out using a particular gaming system or is it supisition and assumed narrative? I love the new channel and this video has been one of my favorites! I'm curious on the process of it's creation.
The battle in this video seems loosely based on a fake news battle written about back then about a Bohemian force defeating the Mongols and stopping their advance. The other major Central European figures in this video were also involved in various ways in scrambling the initial defense force against the Mongols in case they continued west from Hungary (though the Lithuanian conflict with the Teutonic Knights was in a separate theater.) In real life there was even some success in organizing a crusade to intercept them, but the Mongols never ventured westward except for a few very tiny raiding parties that were put down without the main European army. So long story short, WaW seem to base things on the real reactions of these figures to the threat of a Mongol invasion with some conjecture based on our hindsight on their true capabilities or loyalties. In which case it remains questionable if the Pope's call for a crusade will actually resonate with many kingdoms, or if he and Emperor Frederick II can put aside their differences as in real life they still could not.
Glad this got put on Wizards and Warriors instead of Kings and Generals. Seems more appropriate to put alternative history here.
Would y’all do any other alt history videos? Like Majorian succeeding is saving the western Roman Empire? A more successful reciqneust by Justinian? Alexander living longer and his empire with him? Or more modern ones? Like communism failing in China? Gorbachev saving the Soviet Union? Alternate WW1? Italy joining the Allies in ww2?
Nice take, but i think still, past 1242 Capetian power in france was at one of it's peaks, so they could, after making peace with neighbours, really push back
Hey, i feel like someone commented it, saying saint Louis wasn't the best tactician, with which i mostly agree. Where'd that comment go?
You guys are rocking it all!... Keep it up!
Excellent alternative history. Gripping telling and despite the fight back the issue still very much in doubt. Given the varied leadership of the time it will be interesting to see how the three main players Louis IX of France, Henry III of England and stupor mundi (the wonder of the world) Emperor Frederick II of the HRE will act. Louis is the only reliable Crusader, Henry is a non entity militarily but Englishmen like William Longsword did go on Louis' 7th Crusade so there could be some unity between the English and French response. The big question will be Frederick. The man was brilliant but he was also not to be trusted and incredibly selfish and self interested. He abandoned Hungary but still took the Mongol threat seriously. A letter written by Emperor Frederick II, found in the Regesta Imperii, dated to 20 June 1241, and intended for all his vassals in Swabia, Austria, and Bohemia, included a number of specific military instructions. His forces were to avoid engaging the Mongols in field battles, hoard all food stocks in every fortress and stronghold, and arm all possible levies as well as the general populace. Was he intending a Fabian strategy to wear down the Mongols? Frederick did send letters to both Louis and Henry regarding a Crusade but who would lead it and how much would Frederick commit to his own defence in the field will never be known. Interesting to see how this will turn out.
Frederick died in this video, no? It will be interesting how the HRE will react to that leadership wise and how fast he'll get replaced.
@@MDP1702 Different Frederick. Emperor Fred II is still alive and doing his own thing (and still excommunicated). Probaly the Pope will make a deal to lift it yet again if Fred actually does something for the benefit of Europe. I feel that Louis IX will be the uniting force rather than the emperor and as long as he doesn't bring his idiot brother Robert of Artois he should be able to beat the Mongols. However I am guessing Robert will spoil this brother's careful plans and doing someting impetuous as he did in real life.
@@MDP1702 No Fred II did not die. He's excommunicated and having trouble in Italy but in Germany he has been preparing defences for the past two years (and letting the eastern states burn).
I remember reading about Frederick's contingency plans for potential further Mongol expansion, it's much smarter than to try for a decisive field battle especially since the odds are stacked against the European style of warfare right now. While knights can hold their own and keep up to some extent with mobility, the large numbers of infantry will be far less useful and incapable of forcing a fight unless the enemy is cornered like what happened in this video. The Mongols are also better equipped than similar enemies in the past as they also field plenty of heavy lancers instead of being just horse archers, and so they are not as easy to break as say the Seljuks. That said, hunkering down carries some drawbacks such as giving the enemy all the initative in where he picks his battles, and you can't order a total shutdown as key cities must still be supplied to withstand persistent sieges. Whether this is offset by being able to constantly harass them (probably easier for the slower Mongol subjects than the actual Mongols themselves as seen in this video) remains to be seen.
@@perrytran9504 Admire him or despise him Frederick II was no fool and very pragmatic. I away he was as sensible a military commander as Richard Lionheart. Both men realised that you could not fight in the normal open battle both were used to in Western Europe. You had to control the battlefield as Richard did at Arsuf, tightly controlling your knights and protecting them behind a wall of spear and crossbows. Frederick enlarged on that with his defence in depth plan, letting others wear down the Mongols as they advanced toward his territories (not very honourable and bad luck to the Hungarians and the Poles but that was Freddy for you). Yes it will be interesting to see how the producers envisage Frederick's defence against the advancing Mongols.
Great video, I've long been fascinated by Mongol history, it's so deep and there is always more to learn. You folks know your source material so well, this was fantastic.
DEUS VULT! DEUS VULT! This is an awesome video! Can't wait and I am excited for the next ones!
I seriously got goosebumps with the final few minutes as the crusade was called. Wonderful storytelling. What would happen next? This is the rallying cry for Christiandom's Finest hour! Let us see what would happen! Of course, the Mongols would not be out of this fight yet, no doubt the death of the first grandchild of the great Genghis Khan would enrage the Mongols. inspiring them with the desire to grind Chrisitiandom into the ground.
'From a record of the Seventh Crusade
The year 1246 in the Year of our Lord, the Battle of Olomouc ended in a victory for Christiandom. Our Holyness gave an urgent plea for the rulers of Christiandom to unite to drive the Tatars back from Europe. As a result of the brave stand, word has spread like wildfire and thousands of warriors flocked together to take up the cross. From The Iberian peninsula to Italy, England to France, from Scandinavia to the Holy Roman Empire, all heard the word of our Vicar of God to the cause! The expeditions to the Holy Land are on hold, what use is a holy city if Christiandom is destroyed? Even after I write this, I a humble monk have made the decision to join the crusade as a Holy Knight of God in one of the military orders.'
I do wonder what is going to happen? It all depends on which side conquers their inner demons I believe. The Kingdoms of Medieval Europe have an inconsistent track record on the treatment of minority groups; Jews, pagans, and other Christians and such. Which might cause them to look at the Mongols. However the Mongols may be religiously tolerant, they can be jerks to those who are not Mongols. Also, the Mongols have little problems with rallying behind a strong leader, whereas the kings of Europe have a tendency to quarrel with one another at the worse times.
Regardless, the result will shape the world for centuries to come.
Another thing in Europes advantage is their ability to retreat behind castles etc, lure the mongols deeper in, execute ambushes and guerrila warfare and more easy replenishment of troops and supplies.
Also the Mongols have a serious weakpoint, if they lose too many battles, even when overall slowly driving Europe's forces back, their tributaries might see an opening to get rid of them, considering the threat of Mongol arms is the only thing really keeping them in check. If this happens, they might even do more stabbing in the back, like the Ruthenians now. The mongols need to win pretty decisively and make a clear example of what happens if you oppose them.
@@MDP1702 You are right. I overlooked that. You can guess this war is going to be won with the side that has the greatest will power
Did what happened in the battle of Olomouc? I can't find that battle on Wikipédia.
@@Letnistonwandif It is because that battle does not exist. It is the battle in the alternate history.
@@thecrusaderhistorian9820 Ok ok.
Excellent and thought provoking: an educated and well presented approach to alternative history. Well done.
I remembered that I mentioned about alternate history on Kings and Generals sometime but given up on that for like years now. But suddenly, this video appeared and reignited my hope of seeing other alternate scenarios on one of the best history and fantasy's channels on UA-cam! So thank you so much for creating this video!
Question: Why the fractured Byzantine/Roman remnants did not ally themselves with the Mongols to retake Constantinople? Don't they shared the same enemy that is the Franks, aka Western Christians?
@@georgekolev9832 And do you guys have plans for the little simpler alternate history scenarios in the future? For example, Russia did not sell Alaska and the White Army and the Romanov's relatives fled there and established their anti-communist rule after the revolution broke out a few generations later. The other example would be the Ottoman Empire survived World War I, modernized and get rich by the oil discovered in Arabia, annexing Arabia, join World War II on the side of the Allies to retake locations such as Rhodes and Libya back from Italy and because the Ottoman Empire is still around, the Middle East is not a mess like in our timeline.
So what do you guys think? Are these scenarios possible? Heck, can they even be part of the same timeline?
@@georgekolev9832 I understand. I am only hoping that my ideas such as Tsardom of Alaska and the Ottoman Empire survived World War I will helped attract more audiences to come if they became part of the voting polls.
Freakin tense, can’t wait for the next episode!
Don’t take to long!
19:48 "Remember Vienna!" At last, Europe is aroused to join forces and send an army to destroy the Mongols. But if that army is destroyed, Europe will be defenseless...
I can't wait for the next installment of this series!
Though European forces could more quickly replenish troops, especially levied once. And overall speaking knights are also more likely to survive if it comes to a rout/retreat (unless surrounded ofcourse).
@@MDP1702 The problem is levied troops are worth much less than knights especially against an enemy like the Mongols. They could probably do okay at defending cities but simply won't be good enough for taking the initiative due to rough training and poor mobility. This was actually the exact problem the earlier Chinese dynasties struggled with against the nomads pre-dating the Mongols - any conscript can be taught to shoot a crossbow and hold a spear okay, but no training will allow him to chase the nomads down or force them to fight. At best he can be used to hold territory and hope to deter the enemy from attacking where he currently is. For that there was no substitute to training their own professional cavalry units.
@@perrytran9504
*but simply won't be good enough for taking the initiative due to rough training and poor mobility.*
In rought terrain the mongols also would already be at a disadvantage. Besides the main reason for the levies at this time would be as reserves, ambush or just to keep the enemy busy while the knights attack or support the knights after their attack. Also the first wave of levies are likely only needed once the normal troops are thinned out, but the same goes for the mongols, once their experienced troops have taken losses, they'll need to be replaced by inexperienced troops.
*but no training will allow him to chase the nomads down or force them to fight.*
Which is why you don't do that. The mongols are the ones that need to conquer Europe, they'll get bogged down in siege after siege, they can't retreat everytime a relief army appears, then they'd get nowhere.
*At best he can be used to hold territory and hope to deter the enemy from attacking where he currently is.*
Which is exactly what European castle warfare is aimed at: slowing/tieing down the opponent while a large relief army can be assembled. If the mongols retreat everytime such an army appears, they'll get nowhere and if they do give battle, it likely won't be on favorable terrain and against a larger better supplied army.
I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of European havy knights, in total we are likely talking between 50-100k knights. France alone could field something like 10k without touching their reserves.
@@perrytran9504 I mean, the Chinese did fight the main Mongol forces for half a century so....
This is outstandingly enjoyable to watch! Would love to see more if it works!
Yup this is a masterpiece 👏 and I like it however guys can we have an alternative history for what if the Napoleon won the war against the sixth coalition 😅
I am ALL KINDS OF DOWN for this kind of content. The in depth historical analysis you are famous for married to the great “what ifs” in history. Absolutely fire. 🎉🎉🎉
Wow. This is incredible. Best alternate history video I’ve ever seen.
Could you do one about ''What if the UK had a competent parliament who deeply cared about decent British people'' ?
😂😆 lol good one
This is alternate history. Not a Low Fantasy setting.
@@YourLocalMairaaboo oh burn !
Amazing work. This is equal to your videos on actual Mongol history. I can’t wait to see the subsequent episodes.
I was wondering if this scenario is including the Syrian and levant invasions as still occuring or not. Loved the video!!
Very nice!! First alternative video that i ever saw. Is very good
Once invisibility is lost, a war can't be won when the main weapon of the enemy is fear.
Humans will always be fearful of sheer brutality, just what the mongols specialized in.
I'm speechless & this is the most realistic alternate history ever, i can imagine how terrifying the situation was, i can imagine the kings, nobles, monks, priest, pope and peasants in europe thinking that the end of the world was near, and the last part with the pope rallying message was epic!!
Here my whistlist :
1.Still about mongol, What would happen if there was no tornado in second Mongol Invasion in Japan especially in kyushu region.
2. What if Tokugawa Shogunate won the Boshin war and modernize or at least the battle ended stalemate with the Imperial court, Choshu and Satsuma faction forced to sign a humiliating treaty.
3. What if USA & South Korean won the korean war and korean united
4. Inspired by Koei games Kessen I & III
What if The west army ( Ishida Mitsunari ) Won the battle of Sekigahara and leading to the ficitonal battles in kanto region.
and What if Oda Nobunaga manage to survive & escape from Honnoji.
And its 31 secs ago !!
Please, make more alt-history videos! I can't watch enough of them
At any timeline given, our brave king Daniel of Galicia would've never serve the Mongol barbarians for too long, in comparison to his distant cousin - Alexander "Nevskiy", the loyal kisser of the Khan's boot, who, while been trying to deal with his brother Andrew, had called one more Horde invasion to Rus, which was even more devastating then Batu's one)))
So, you think Daniel whould chose death?
@@adamnesico in our timeline, he meticulously played his game, creating a visibility of obedience to the Khan for to avoid one more invasion, but simultaneously obtaining the crown from the Pope.
@@artemo.shapovaloff5577 so he didn’t revolted to the mongols.
What makes you think he would have done in this more dire scenario.
@@adamnesico the situation might not be so dire as if it is shown here - one wing of the Mongol army is annihilated and the whole Europe is uniting under the banner of the new Crusade. In this timeline Crusades 5-7th might be made against the Horde, not Saracens.
And, above all, what I've been trying to say that king Daniel was not so deeply loyal to Mongols as his relatives to the North were. In his case, it was just a maneuver to preserve his lands, not willingly obedience. And it caused one of the main cracks between us, Ukrainians, and moskovites - we're political descendants of the Great Dutchy of Lithuania and Rzeczh Pospolita, they - of the Horde.
@@artemo.shapovaloff5577 Its really dire, they have annihilated just 1 tumen, that will anger the other 11.
Volga bulgars too achieved a victory, what they made was just anger the mogols and make them return far more powerful and be annihilated.
See what mogols made with th epeople that angered them.
Once the news arrive to the others, they will make a punish expedietion, and the volynians will fade from existance. No rutenians in this timeline> No Ukraine as we know it.
If Daniel was really loyal to his people he would have remained loyal here, he has brought the end to them.
Oh,yes, and we know how succesful were those crusades.
Alexander Nevsky and Subotai together is so overpowered
To all the "But the Castles!" and "But the Forests!" arguments. You think there were no castles in China or the khazar khaganate [Khwarazmian Empire, i got my Ks mixed up]? Yes, medieval castle building came to a high point right around that time but it takes time and $$ to build castles and most castles fell due to siege. If the Mongols swept the battlefield how long with the castles last?
Does anyone think there were no forests in China? the Mongols were stymied by the DENSE jungles of Vietnam and Burma, terrain more difficult then most German forests. The Mongols even took to the seas to invade Japan and Java. Why would thick forests alone stop them?
Finally, it is possible the damp of central and western Europe made their composite bows less effective; the glue came loose.
Khazars were already wiped be4 the mogols.
Learn more history.
The forest and castle density in China was far lower than Europe.
Song dinasty feared an inner uprising, too despised militr affairs, so it had few fortresses.
If mogols can keep the europeans as allies, they can use them for siege the castles.
If they dont, and church is likely to deny them help, wont be esy to submit thousands of castles.
Dont understimate german forests, one uncle of mine has been on the bed fr months just for hiking in german forest and get bitten by a bug.
Yeah, moisture is another factor against them.
Mogols didnt were so effective in humid battelgrounds.
@@adamnesico good point, white people would of course have beaten yellow people bc .. reasons.
Exquisite work, chaps. Well done.
What if Hannibal won the second Punic war and sack rome?