It's a bit grim, but an overview of slavery would be interesting - ways to end up a slave, rules roles and social status (or lack thereof), ways out of slavery if any, its history pre3k, opinions on the subject of the time, any notable slaves recorded, that sort of thing. Roles, rights and rules for women would be interesting too, as would for non-Han foreigners.
19:06 im wondering how common are "side job" these farmers had, and how much it could affect the family's income. In Vietnam for example, we have many "craft" villages, which are famous for some particular products like pottery, handicrafts, or processed food, but by and large they are still farming communities whose main job is still farming. With that extra income, I think many families will stay afloat better than what their base grain production may suggest.
side jobs were common and definitely helps as the main side job would be weaving from the wife which actually can bring up a lot of income for the family. The rundown here also ignore a lot of common costs like everyday expenses so its not an accurate day to day expense sheet. The main purpose is to bring attention to all the different taxes
Dude what do you do for a living? You historical knowledge is insane - not even just Chinese history but your Crusader Kings Let's Play shows you have plenty of western knowledge as well. Cheers man, always enjoy an upload.
It's 2 AM in the morning in my timezone and I'm watching a video on how the Han dinasty peasants struggled to pay their taxes. Clearly, I've lost all control of my life.
Would love to hear you discuss the historical accuracy of the weapons and armour in 3K: TW. Oh, oh, and maybe prominent buildings at the time like the Weiyang Palace and the Han era Great Wall.
I remember reading one of the reasons why Shu was heavily glorified/remembered other than Han nostalgia is that out of the three kingdoms, they're the most stable and peaceful
I mean aside from internal southern rebellions, the one time invasion arrived inside Shu, they surrendered, so yes they kept the war outside but the northern expedition extracted a huge cost financially and in terms of human lives too so I am not sure if that would make them the best. And why would later historians care about stability, they only want the lineage of the Han when they decided to glorify them.
This is fascinating, i always find ancient bureaucracy and administration interesting especially with limited technology. Sometimes it looks even better than our overly complicated and pointless administrations in this modern time....
This series you're doing is probably my favorite of anything you've done. I've always been interested in learning the history of commoners, since the history most often recorded is that of the elite, so this is right up my alley. If you're taking recommendations on topics to cover for this kind of thing, I've got two- one is clothing, since the history of fashion is always fascinating. Another, more difficult one to cover, especially since I'm not sure how much of an interest you have in it- I'd love to know more about the history of poetry and its role in culture during the Han and Three Kingdoms periods. I know that Cao Cao, some of his sons, and Kong Rong are among a few recorded talented poets, but I've never been able to find much English-language information about it.
Wow this was very interesting and I really like how you broke down the different taxes in a way so that it's very easy to understand. What I wouldn't mind learning about next, unless if you plan on covering in your Cao Pi lore series, is I wanna know more about that seven steps poem. CA made their own epic version for the eight prince's dlc trailer, so I'm curious as why it was so amazing.
This was so nice! I appreciate you putting things into the context of a regular family. Honestly that is looking kinda like my family back home. My parents are living with my older sister and her husband and baby. It is a surprisingly nice, and my brother in law is likely going to inherit and carry on my dads construction business, which I have no desire to do lol. Funny how life works out like that.
Great video, love this focus on the common people- I would be interested to see a further video on military service, maybe following some hypothetical brothers serving their second years on the different frontiers.
This was excellent! I fancy myself of knowing a good deal about the Han and Three Kingdoms, but this knowledge consists of matters I've never really seen explored or studied before! What an interesting lens into the daily lives of the people, who are very often largely ignored in our large scale of history. All things considered, life didn't seem terrible for the common folk, at least in times of peace.
I'm curious on the use of mercenaries if there was any. Did they also pay such taxes during their time being hired or because they were needed they mighy not. Also how was it seen as to be a merc?
Interesting. I once heard that Wu was actually the wealthiest of the three kingdoms, so I'm surprised to learn that they ended up wrecking their economy. I guess this might have been referencing to the imperial family rather than the common people, but you'd think that they could have made up for it with their near monopoly on water trade at the time.
the average Wu citizen were probably wealthier than the other two Kingdoms mainly because there were less fighting happening in Wu and Wu launched fewer campaigns than the other two Kingdoms, but objectively Wei was much wealthier than Shu and Wu combined.
@@SeriousTrivia Now that I think about it, it would make more sense than my theory of water trade being what helped them maintain their wealth. Not only was Wei likely just as capable of interor trading thanks to the Yellow River, but it was also a bit too early for sea trade to become as lucrative as it could have been.
Appreciate the Super Thanks! This was one of my favorite videos to research and make. Usually I stick to just the historical texts and they are usually light on things like the economies of the time, so I ended up getting learning a lot of new stuff from making this video too which is always very rewarding!
So after watching, it really is a skill how you can take something as dry as a tax system and make it interesting for 30 min. Is there any info on the average live span of a conscript in the frontier?
It would vary wildly depending on when and where you were stationed at, but I did run into some figures on illness rate which were around 4.34% for new conscripts on the frontiers with a recovery rate of around 77%. Overall it was better than I expected but that still meant for every one hundred conscript one person was just going to die of illness usually due to drastic changes in the environment (temperature, humidity, diet etc)
So, Master ST, which of the 3 Kingdoms had the best Tun-Tian Policy? This is in terms of long term effects. And, I have to add this, how did Zhuge Liang reform the economy of Shu? We should also look at prominent economic reforms of the 3 Kingdoms and the people who were responsible for them.
I don’t think any of the tuntian policies were better or worse. It’s just different labor sources that fit better for each of the Kingdoms and their needs. Liu Ba and Zhuge Liang nationalized and regulated whole industries in the Yi Province to find the Shu Han treasury.
Thank you Serious Trivia for the Video. So Sun Jian's family were merchants? Seen as the lowest class of official society? .... a form of disrepute for his clan? Yet eventually they overcame this and was able to have renowned scholars like Zhang Zhao serving them. Cao cao, although coming from a rich and powerful Enunch family, also suffers a level of disrepute due to being associated with them. Though he has done much to distance himself from them I believe. Liu Bei, although having, or claiming to have, a distant imperial lineage - came from a family without much wealth or power. So all three are from humble beginnings, or at least disadvantaged in some way - making it even more remarkable for them to achieve what they could.
@@SeriousTrivia Well, it's not CA "making things up" in this case. Even Dr. Rafe de Crespigny says this... "There was at least a tradition that Sun Jian's father was a man of no great hardihood, and there are indications which suggest he was a merchant." (Generals of the South) - But it seems you have it on good authority he was a melon farmer. I'm curious to know the source. It might be fun to explore.
I have some suggestions for future content. just discussing other folk tales, stories, anecdotes or little known facts about other officers. For example - in your Guan Yu's last dance series, you seemed to know little factoids about Mi Fang and Shi Ren that I never heard before, either by reading their SGZ bios or anything online in the wikis.
How did conscripts from the zhengzu serve in the Northern Army? Given that it was a professional army, one year stints seems too short to be able to both train to a professional standard and go on actual military campaigns. Additionally, the five regiment organization seems too small to handle such a large influx of potential recruits.
Not directly in the northern army but as auxiliaries to assist them. The northern army required you to come from select clans from six northwestern commanderies. I should have phrased it better as part of the city garrison assisting the northern army
Love these lores about 3 kingdoms juss wish there was more visual. Such as pictures videos, wish the game was open world kinda like mount an blade, so basically first or 3rd person visuals . Keep it up fam lol this is not a complaint more of a “should do this type thing “🤣🤣🤣💯💯
Things I would like to add: According to Han census the average family size was 5 persons. 7 would be more than average. Most Han sources say that 1 adult farmer could work 100 small mou (11.4 acres), some sources with an incentive to exaggerate the plight of the farmer would say that it requires 2 field hands to work 100 mou. So for a family with 60 mu some of the other adults of the family could be earning alternative income as wage laborers or weavers. Although Han sourcing do say that one small mu of cultivated land would produce around 1 - 1.5 shi of grain per year, this does not include other things the land produce such as fruits/vegetables/chaff, which bumps up land production per small mu to an average of 1.667 shi as according to the Guanzi. The book Han Agriculture by Cho-yun Hsu calculated that a family of five with 70 mu of land would produce 12600 cash from grain, 8400 from non-grain agricultural produce, and 17000 cash from weaving(two weavers), using the price of 60 cash per shi of grain.
I made it 7 so I can showcase the head tax across the age spectrum, but yes, the wife most definitely will be weaving on the side to make extra cash for the family. But it is hard to use cash from grain as a great measurement during the Han period simply because grain prices fluctuated wildly and was also regional as in the capital would often have the lowest price as tax collection would often lead to an oversupply while once you moved away from the capital, the further you got, the higher the price of grain became (sometimes even ten to hundred times depending on the conditions and the area). Also 70 mu (da mu in this case) is equal to 168 (xiao mu) which is quite uncommonly large for farming households as most had under 100 xiao mu. Not that they can't farm that much land but rather they just didn't have that much land.
The author didn’t say whether he used small or big mu for the 70 mu, but he calculated it at 3 hu per mu which I think would make it a big mu. You are correct that this would be more than a farmer would have, and most likely more than what a single farmer could farm. A single farmer was probably only capable of farming 42 big mu (100 small mu). However, this also means a farm smaller than this would mean he and his sons would have other jobs besides farming. A hired laborer during the time of Han Civil War and hyperinflation (Wang Mang) was recorded to earn 6 shi per month as a fisherman, I assume during normal periods a laborer would earn more. Interestingly his father earned many times more as a cart driver, probably due to the unsafe roads as it was a time of Civil War. In 1 AD hired substitutes for female convict wood collectors earned 300 cash per month, and I remember that during the Eastern Han a government official was complaining that he had to pay his servant 2000 cash per month amongst other things, but this official had an incentive to exaggerate.
@@SeriousTrivia There was also this paper that looked at bone collagen levels from ancient Chinese cemetaries. What was surprising was that there didn't seem to be a difference in meat consumption between bones found in wealthy graves, and bones found in poor graves, at least not for the Han dynasty (Xuecun area, based on 56 samples). There also wasn't a difference in meat consumption between males and females. The difference lies in the type of grain consumed. Bones found in rich graves ate almost entirely millet, whereas bones in poor graves ate a mix of millet and wheat, as wheat was considered a less desirable grain as according to the cultural attitudes of the Han dynasty. The Paper: From State to Empire, Human Dietary Change on the Central Plains of China from 770 BC to 220 AD by Ligang Zhou
Question: lets say if i were serving in the frontier,northwest for example, the army i'm in managed to rout a raider party,usually what happened to the loot i got? Like enemy horses,armor,outfit etc. Does it a finders keepers thing or the army collect and pooled it together,sold it and redistribute the money? 🤔 Sorry if i jumped the gun with this question,just curious 😅 I assume the next episode will revolve around matchmaking,wedding and everything in between? Anyhoo,looking forward to it
Assuming that you battled with the army with an overall officer and overall general, it’s fair to assume you won’t be picking loot off the ground as you fight for your life; a more reasonable guess would be that there will be a dedicated unit for picking up weapons and loot after the battle has ended, and under that assumption, the loot that was taken will be up to the general to distribute. Most likely situation is that you won’t get much of anything at all unless you’re one of the officers, as the generals hand rewards down in a linear fashion, so if anyone of your superiors are corrupt, you won’t be receiving anything if you’re a common solider. Of course, if you pick up some random trinket while fighting that was gold or something and survived the battle, I’m sure the army officials won’t be too stickler about it, unless some of your fellow soldiers that may have witnessed your precious item tries to steal or report you out of jealousy. Overall, it’s a hard life
Not sure how this is possible, but could you explain how some people could rise up to become a wealthy gentry clan? After all merchants in a free market during this time seems hard due to Confucian culture and taxation. I mean, 'Entrepreneurship' isn't exactly a profession back in the day. There were no NFTs to sell. And unless you're provided a really well education wouldn't it be hard to do well at the Imperial Examination? Just so one can rise up in the government to gain wealth and notoriety for their own family? Maybe as an extension on a separate topic, explain the Imperial Examination process? Just throwing out random ideas out there.
The imperial exam started in the Sui Dynasty (another 500 years from this point). During the Han, gentry clans are basically nobilities and since getting a high ranking imperial court job is your best ticket, you have to be educated and be well connected to get recommended to a court job then hope your descendants can keep it going for a few generations so you are not the one hit wonder. Then after a few generations, your clan would be viewed as gentry. While this might sound tough, going through the military is actually the best way to gain social mobility. Take the Yang clan who enjoyed power during the entire Han Dynasty into the Three Kingdoms period. They got their start when Yang Xi who was just a guard captain under Liu Bang became one of the five person who took part in bring Xiang Yu’s body back after Xiang Yu committed suicide. Yang Xi came back with Xiang Yu’s leg and got a marquis title out of it which set up his descendant to get educated, get connections and score many grand excellency positions throughout the Han
@@SeriousTrivia I must be mistaken then. I assumed Imperial Examination already began during the Eastern Han period. But there has to be some other avenues for commoners to rise up in wealth and prestige right? After all to be a butcher a wealthy occupation. To be an artisan require apprenticeship. Blacksmith and metallurgy is state sponsored right? Just throwing out other 'day in the life' content.
American 🇺🇸 colonist: oh no 🙈!! Taxation without representation!!! Chinese farmer: yo chillax dude So what is .325 grams in US dollar 💵? 30kg is a lotta salt 🧂 for some average joe./…or yang Sounds like the emperor is some kinda emergency fund. Sounds like wei had the best economic policies
isn't it covered in the end of this video. displaced populace being placed on these farms where they are expected to give 60% of their harvest and also join the army in times of war.
@@SeriousTrivia Would you that the tuntian systems promoted by Liu Bei and Cao Cao allowed the current Chinese government economic policies to be socially acceptable?
@@Bmc19234 I know this question wasn't for me but I think what is/is not socially acceptable is irrelevant in the context of almost 1800 years later, unless you're referring to the evolution/legacy of the tuntian system and the concept of the emperor/central government "owning" all the land. In this case the specific modern Chinese government policy of land distribution would be more socially accepted, but that might have to do more with recent Chinese history(Qing, KMT, WWII, CCP, etc.)
it would most definitely be a no as tuntian was not a revolutionary or long lasting policy as there were Dynasties before and after that adopted similar measures to varies success level. Economic policies change over time even under the same regime so it is hard to answer your question as it is very generic. Also it is hard to gauge social acceptance as what level of majority do you draw that line. For example, say the current Supreme Court rulings in the US, it is hard to say if they are socially acceptable (like acceptable by majority or the minority in power which are terrible concepts). At the end of the day without getting to political, the Chinese people in general are highly pragmatic and less idealistic when compared to the West as I assume that is the framing you are coming from. Whether it is economic policies, faith, form of government, or whatever, results matter more than ideology. So the real social acceptance by the general population in China is more of a reflection of the trust gained by government policies since the opening up in 1978 and the economic growth that followed. This is not to say there are no mistakes in policies since 1978 or all is forgiven for the major mistakes beforehand. People aren't oblivious to it but as long as the general trend is in an upward trajectory, the vast majority are content which I think is a better word than socially acceptable in this case.
Hi Serious, not sure where else to ask this question but it came up in conversation today with my family: Why was the tomb of Emperor Qin not looted during the Han civil war? Tomb robbing seemed like such a big deal back then, and Confucian scholars did not revere the Qin dynasty.
traps! it is still unopened today because I think scans have shown large amounts of mercury inside. In addition the biggest concern today is preservation as we don't have the technology to preserve everything from the dig. Although archaeology has taken big steps in China with the recent dig at San Xing Dui so who knows if they will ever tackle Qinshihuang's tomb in the near future
@@SeriousTrivia Still, you'd think an ambitious warlord would be more than happy to send peons to their doom to loot the place given the fabulous wealth of the Qin. I mean.. 50% income tax! That's some serious stonks. I suppose that's why mercury was used rather than conventional traps like the Egyptians used for their tombs, there's just no practical way to dig through a huge catacomb filled with poisoned soil if you're still an Iron Age civilization. Thanks again for your amazingly informative work. Your well presented content and willingness to broch the history behind the mythos in tandem with the Romance itself have taught me about an aspect of history within a part of the world that I have been ignorant of for my entire life. Your little corner of the internet is my paradise.
@@SeriousTrivia I say the killing of craftsmen and laborers who build the tomb was wise and have an excellent foresight. Though it was pretty brutal and sickening. Who would have known Qin dynasty would collapse not even a decade after the first emperor died. Qin huangdi's tomb remain untouched while other emperors have their tombs looted and destroyed.
@@SeriousTrivia Indeed, there's an old saying from Mozi. A man should be married by 20 and a lady should be married by 15 so that they can both go to their separate duties and keep on producing for the State.
Hello. I just started watching your channel. I see you did assassins creed Valhalla and odyssey. Is there any chance you could do origins? That would be great. Thanks
Is the tax on the unmarried girls the main cause for the husbands to marry their wife’s maiden as the first concubines? Like Cao Cao having Lady Liu, Sun Jian having Lady Chen
This is a bit hard for modern day people to understand but usually the accompanying maid is the maid that grew up with the main wife. Now that the main wife is married to her husband’s family it is vital that she gets the oldest born son for her status to remain firm in her new family so maid now becomes an added security as in during the days when the main wife is on her period, she will offer to sleep with the husband to prevent other concubines from having a chance. She will also either abort the kid if she becomes pregnant or pass the kid off to the main wife if the husband’s family wants to keep the kid. It was all for the interest of the main wife that the accompanying maid becomes a concubine for the husband
Wait, I'm confused, the Field Tax was double downed to 1/30 due to the Han Wudi's war with the Xiongnu, but this was made official by 155 bc by Han Jingdi???
I am interested in Wang Mang Rebellion. Do you have any english sources on the internet that I can read? I don't understand how an upstanding man such as Wang Mang can become so powerhungry in such a short time.
You can always check out his Wikipedia page for some general background. Most/all of the information is cited, so you can follow those if you would like to explore further.
I don't think it's accurate to say he became power hungry. I had a class with this for my students where we looked at both Zhao Kuangyin (the founder of Song) and Wang Mang, comparing and contrasting them, why did one fail while the other created a thriving empire? The idea here is that Wang Mang was a zealot. Someone who wanted to bring the world back to a made-up age. Not so different from our own fundamentalists in this era. Aside from the murdering and cruel methods he used to gain his position, I am sure he thought himself justified, now he could bring the world back to order and establish a lasting peace and prosperity for all. He was a visionary, but he allowed that vision to carry him into a labyrinth with no way out.
You've managed to do what many considered impossible. You've made taxes sound interesting
It's a bit grim, but an overview of slavery would be interesting - ways to end up a slave, rules roles and social status (or lack thereof), ways out of slavery if any, its history pre3k, opinions on the subject of the time, any notable slaves recorded, that sort of thing.
Roles, rights and rules for women would be interesting too, as would for non-Han foreigners.
Wow, life is rough for the peasantry. Those yellow turbans sure had the right idea huh?
shu having money but not people is a funny turn around for Liu bei
The fate of a frontier province in those days. Nowadays there are lots of people there though!
average fake uncle L
19:06 im wondering how common are "side job" these farmers had, and how much it could affect the family's income. In Vietnam for example, we have many "craft" villages, which are famous for some particular products like pottery, handicrafts, or processed food, but by and large they are still farming communities whose main job is still farming. With that extra income, I think many families will stay afloat better than what their base grain production may suggest.
side jobs were common and definitely helps as the main side job would be weaving from the wife which actually can bring up a lot of income for the family. The rundown here also ignore a lot of common costs like everyday expenses so its not an accurate day to day expense sheet. The main purpose is to bring attention to all the different taxes
Dude what do you do for a living? You historical knowledge is insane - not even just Chinese history but your Crusader Kings Let's Play shows you have plenty of western knowledge as well. Cheers man, always enjoy an upload.
Nothing related to history unfortunately
It's 2 AM in the morning in my timezone and I'm watching a video on how the Han dinasty peasants struggled to pay their taxes.
Clearly, I've lost all control of my life.
Would love to hear you discuss the historical accuracy of the weapons and armour in 3K: TW. Oh, oh, and maybe prominent buildings at the time like the Weiyang Palace and the Han era Great Wall.
Nothing is certain but death and taxes.
I remember reading one of the reasons why Shu was heavily glorified/remembered other than Han nostalgia is that out of the three kingdoms, they're the most stable and peaceful
I mean aside from internal southern rebellions, the one time invasion arrived inside Shu, they surrendered, so yes they kept the war outside but the northern expedition extracted a huge cost financially and in terms of human lives too so I am not sure if that would make them the best. And why would later historians care about stability, they only want the lineage of the Han when they decided to glorify them.
This is fascinating, i always find ancient bureaucracy and administration interesting especially with limited technology. Sometimes it looks even better than our overly complicated and pointless administrations in this modern time....
man...we make complex rules now for the sake of creating loopholes
@@SeriousTrivia That's really the sad truth.
Missed the notification by 2 hours because I was...playing three kingdoms. Turns out Dian Wei dies the same way no matter what reality...poor guy.
This series you're doing is probably my favorite of anything you've done. I've always been interested in learning the history of commoners, since the history most often recorded is that of the elite, so this is right up my alley. If you're taking recommendations on topics to cover for this kind of thing, I've got two- one is clothing, since the history of fashion is always fascinating. Another, more difficult one to cover, especially since I'm not sure how much of an interest you have in it- I'd love to know more about the history of poetry and its role in culture during the Han and Three Kingdoms periods. I know that Cao Cao, some of his sons, and Kong Rong are among a few recorded talented poets, but I've never been able to find much English-language information about it.
I happen to be more interested in poetry than clothing
Wow this was very interesting and I really like how you broke down the different taxes in a way so that it's very easy to understand. What I wouldn't mind learning about next, unless if you plan on covering in your Cao Pi lore series, is I wanna know more about that seven steps poem. CA made their own epic version for the eight prince's dlc trailer, so I'm curious as why it was so amazing.
This was so nice! I appreciate you putting things into the context of a regular family. Honestly that is looking kinda like my family back home. My parents are living with my older sister and her husband and baby. It is a surprisingly nice, and my brother in law is likely going to inherit and carry on my dads construction business, which I have no desire to do lol. Funny how life works out like that.
So many ways to justify taxes. Thanks for the video.
More of this deep dives into macro systems please.
Great video, love this focus on the common people- I would be interested to see a further video on military service, maybe following some hypothetical brothers serving their second years on the different frontiers.
This was excellent! I fancy myself of knowing a good deal about the Han and Three Kingdoms, but this knowledge consists of matters I've never really seen explored or studied before! What an interesting lens into the daily lives of the people, who are very often largely ignored in our large scale of history. All things considered, life didn't seem terrible for the common folk, at least in times of peace.
I'm curious on the use of mercenaries if there was any. Did they also pay such taxes during their time being hired or because they were needed they mighy not. Also how was it seen as to be a merc?
during the Han there no need for mercenaries. Wu did use mercenaries but they also didn't collect tax until much later once they formed their kingdom
Just in time for lunch :)
Need more of these! Keep going
Interesting. I once heard that Wu was actually the wealthiest of the three kingdoms, so I'm surprised to learn that they ended up wrecking their economy. I guess this might have been referencing to the imperial family rather than the common people, but you'd think that they could have made up for it with their near monopoly on water trade at the time.
the average Wu citizen were probably wealthier than the other two Kingdoms mainly because there were less fighting happening in Wu and Wu launched fewer campaigns than the other two Kingdoms, but objectively Wei was much wealthier than Shu and Wu combined.
@@SeriousTrivia Now that I think about it, it would make more sense than my theory of water trade being what helped them maintain their wealth. Not only was Wei likely just as capable of interor trading thanks to the Yellow River, but it was also a bit too early for sea trade to become as lucrative as it could have been.
Brilliant video!
Appreciate the Super Thanks! This was one of my favorite videos to research and make. Usually I stick to just the historical texts and they are usually light on things like the economies of the time, so I ended up getting learning a lot of new stuff from making this video too which is always very rewarding!
So after watching, it really is a skill how you can take something as dry as a tax system and make it interesting for 30 min. Is there any info on the average live span of a conscript in the frontier?
It would vary wildly depending on when and where you were stationed at, but I did run into some figures on illness rate which were around 4.34% for new conscripts on the frontiers with a recovery rate of around 77%. Overall it was better than I expected but that still meant for every one hundred conscript one person was just going to die of illness usually due to drastic changes in the environment (temperature, humidity, diet etc)
Can you let me know where I can read this stat?
@@peasantmob1712 I think from a thesis paper from a 南京师范大学 student. I will have to look for it again since it’s been a while since I read it
@@SeriousTrivia Thank you!
ST subtly hint at how he wants his future family to look like. Take notes ya young ladies. XD
hahahaha 3 kids with two sons is quite the handful and I am awfully behind on that first kid lol
@@SeriousTrivia hahaha im just kidding XD
I would like to see a topic on the economy and finance during the time
Very interesting thanks for making these lore/history videos.
So, Master ST, which of the 3 Kingdoms had the best Tun-Tian Policy? This is in terms of long term effects. And, I have to add this, how did Zhuge Liang reform the economy of Shu?
We should also look at prominent economic reforms of the 3 Kingdoms and the people who were responsible for them.
I don’t think any of the tuntian policies were better or worse. It’s just different labor sources that fit better for each of the Kingdoms and their needs. Liu Ba and Zhuge Liang nationalized and regulated whole industries in the Yi Province to find the Shu Han treasury.
Thank you Serious Trivia for the Video. So Sun Jian's family were merchants? Seen as the lowest class of official society? .... a form of disrepute for his clan? Yet eventually they overcame this and was able to have renowned scholars like Zhang Zhao serving them.
Cao cao, although coming from a rich and powerful Enunch family, also suffers a level of disrepute due to being associated with them. Though he has done much to distance himself from them I believe.
Liu Bei, although having, or claiming to have, a distant imperial lineage - came from a family without much wealth or power.
So all three are from humble beginnings, or at least disadvantaged in some way - making it even more remarkable for them to achieve what they could.
Sun Jian's family were not merchants....CA is making things up. If you go back to watch our Sun Jian lore series, Sun Jian's father was a melon farmer
@@SeriousTrivia Well, it's not CA "making things up" in this case. Even Dr. Rafe de Crespigny says this... "There was at least a tradition that Sun Jian's father was a man of no great hardihood, and there are indications which suggest he was a merchant." (Generals of the South) -
But it seems you have it on good authority he was a melon farmer. I'm curious to know the source. It might be fun to explore.
I have some suggestions for future content. just discussing other folk tales, stories, anecdotes or little known facts about other officers. For example - in your Guan Yu's last dance series, you seemed to know little factoids about Mi Fang and Shi Ren that I never heard before, either by reading their SGZ bios or anything online in the wikis.
I really enjoyed this video, it was interesting and the information was easy to digest! Kudos!
Magnifecent and depp content as always.
PS: suggestion of vídeo:the army system and rules in the eastern Han dynasty and three kingdoms period
Actually our titles and rank series already covered most of this
I am reffering to the rules and laws that were present in the armies of those periods.
Another video well done
How did conscripts from the zhengzu serve in the Northern Army? Given that it was a professional army, one year stints seems too short to be able to both train to a professional standard and go on actual military campaigns. Additionally, the five regiment organization seems too small to handle such a large influx of potential recruits.
Not directly in the northern army but as auxiliaries to assist them. The northern army required you to come from select clans from six northwestern commanderies. I should have phrased it better as part of the city garrison assisting the northern army
@@SeriousTrivia Ah, that makes sense. Thank you.
Don't understand 100% of this content but very good video lol
Major and Minor Warlords of the Jian’an Regnal Era Lore when?
Love these lores about 3 kingdoms juss wish there was more visual. Such as pictures videos, wish the game was open world kinda like mount an blade, so basically first or 3rd person visuals . Keep it up fam lol this is not a complaint more of a “should do this type thing “🤣🤣🤣💯💯
Yea I wish I had the artistic talent or the money to hire some illustrators maybe in the future
Master Trivia are you going to do a mini series on the justice system of the Han and the 3K?
justice is just what your local official says...
Things I would like to add:
According to Han census the average family size was 5 persons. 7 would be more than average.
Most Han sources say that 1 adult farmer could work 100 small mou (11.4 acres), some sources with an incentive to exaggerate the plight of the farmer would say that it requires 2 field hands to work 100 mou. So for a family with 60 mu some of the other adults of the family could be earning alternative income as wage laborers or weavers.
Although Han sourcing do say that one small mu of cultivated land would produce around 1 - 1.5 shi of grain per year, this does not include other things the land produce such as fruits/vegetables/chaff, which bumps up land production per small mu to an average of 1.667 shi as according to the Guanzi.
The book Han Agriculture by Cho-yun Hsu calculated that a family of five with 70 mu of land would produce 12600 cash from grain, 8400 from non-grain agricultural produce, and 17000 cash from weaving(two weavers), using the price of 60 cash per shi of grain.
I made it 7 so I can showcase the head tax across the age spectrum, but yes, the wife most definitely will be weaving on the side to make extra cash for the family. But it is hard to use cash from grain as a great measurement during the Han period simply because grain prices fluctuated wildly and was also regional as in the capital would often have the lowest price as tax collection would often lead to an oversupply while once you moved away from the capital, the further you got, the higher the price of grain became (sometimes even ten to hundred times depending on the conditions and the area).
Also 70 mu (da mu in this case) is equal to 168 (xiao mu) which is quite uncommonly large for farming households as most had under 100 xiao mu. Not that they can't farm that much land but rather they just didn't have that much land.
The author didn’t say whether he used small or big mu for the 70 mu, but he calculated it at 3 hu per mu which I think would make it a big mu. You are correct that this would be more than a farmer would have, and most likely more than what a single farmer could farm. A single farmer was probably only capable of farming 42 big mu (100 small mu). However, this also means a farm smaller than this would mean he and his sons would have other jobs besides farming.
A hired laborer during the time of Han Civil War and hyperinflation (Wang Mang) was recorded to earn 6 shi per month as a fisherman, I assume during normal periods a laborer would earn more. Interestingly his father earned many times more as a cart driver, probably due to the unsafe roads as it was a time of Civil War. In 1 AD hired substitutes for female convict wood collectors earned 300 cash per month, and I remember that during the Eastern Han a government official was complaining that he had to pay his servant 2000 cash per month amongst other things, but this official had an incentive to exaggerate.
@@SeriousTrivia There was also this paper that looked at bone collagen levels from ancient Chinese cemetaries. What was surprising was that there didn't seem to be a difference in meat consumption between bones found in wealthy graves, and bones found in poor graves, at least not for the Han dynasty (Xuecun area, based on 56 samples). There also wasn't a difference in meat consumption between males and females. The difference lies in the type of grain consumed. Bones found in rich graves ate almost entirely millet, whereas bones in poor graves ate a mix of millet and wheat, as wheat was considered a less desirable grain as according to the cultural attitudes of the Han dynasty.
The Paper: From State to Empire, Human Dietary Change on the Central Plains of China from 770 BC to 220 AD by Ligang Zhou
Did the system of Geng Zu & Zheng Zu continued on to Tang & Song eras?
Yes Tang had similar systems but also other military systems at the same time
Question: lets say if i were serving in the frontier,northwest for example, the army i'm in managed to rout a raider party,usually what happened to the loot i got? Like enemy horses,armor,outfit etc. Does it a finders keepers thing or the army collect and pooled it together,sold it and redistribute the money? 🤔
Sorry if i jumped the gun with this question,just curious 😅
I assume the next episode will revolve around matchmaking,wedding and everything in between? Anyhoo,looking forward to it
Assuming that you battled with the army with an overall officer and overall general, it’s fair to assume you won’t be picking loot off the ground as you fight for your life; a more reasonable guess would be that there will be a dedicated unit for picking up weapons and loot after the battle has ended, and under that assumption, the loot that was taken will be up to the general to distribute. Most likely situation is that you won’t get much of anything at all unless you’re one of the officers, as the generals hand rewards down in a linear fashion, so if anyone of your superiors are corrupt, you won’t be receiving anything if you’re a common solider. Of course, if you pick up some random trinket while fighting that was gold or something and survived the battle, I’m sure the army officials won’t be too stickler about it, unless some of your fellow soldiers that may have witnessed your precious item tries to steal or report you out of jealousy. Overall, it’s a hard life
@@haisek.sasaki9617 got it. Thank you for answering
Life was so hard back then. Well I guess I should be grateful that im not struggling like those peasants 😭 since i can still feed and clothe myself
Not sure how this is possible, but could you explain how some people could rise up to become a wealthy gentry clan? After all merchants in a free market during this time seems hard due to Confucian culture and taxation. I mean, 'Entrepreneurship' isn't exactly a profession back in the day. There were no NFTs to sell.
And unless you're provided a really well education wouldn't it be hard to do well at the Imperial Examination? Just so one can rise up in the government to gain wealth and notoriety for their own family?
Maybe as an extension on a separate topic, explain the Imperial Examination process?
Just throwing out random ideas out there.
The imperial exam started in the Sui Dynasty (another 500 years from this point). During the Han, gentry clans are basically nobilities and since getting a high ranking imperial court job is your best ticket, you have to be educated and be well connected to get recommended to a court job then hope your descendants can keep it going for a few generations so you are not the one hit wonder. Then after a few generations, your clan would be viewed as gentry. While this might sound tough, going through the military is actually the best way to gain social mobility. Take the Yang clan who enjoyed power during the entire Han Dynasty into the Three Kingdoms period. They got their start when Yang Xi who was just a guard captain under Liu Bang became one of the five person who took part in bring Xiang Yu’s body back after Xiang Yu committed suicide. Yang Xi came back with Xiang Yu’s leg and got a marquis title out of it which set up his descendant to get educated, get connections and score many grand excellency positions throughout the Han
@@SeriousTrivia I must be mistaken then. I assumed Imperial Examination already began during the Eastern Han period.
But there has to be some other avenues for commoners to rise up in wealth and prestige right? After all to be a butcher a wealthy occupation. To be an artisan require apprenticeship. Blacksmith and metallurgy is state sponsored right?
Just throwing out other 'day in the life' content.
@@seveylee9865 right you can be wealthy but not be viewed as gentry. Just like gentry clans can be poor
American 🇺🇸 colonist: oh no 🙈!! Taxation without representation!!!
Chinese farmer: yo chillax dude
So what is .325 grams in US dollar 💵?
30kg is a lotta salt 🧂 for some average joe./…or yang
Sounds like the emperor is some kinda emergency fund. Sounds like wei had the best economic policies
I would like to learn about Cao Cao's tuntian reforms.
isn't it covered in the end of this video. displaced populace being placed on these farms where they are expected to give 60% of their harvest and also join the army in times of war.
@@SeriousTrivia Would you that the tuntian systems promoted by Liu Bei and Cao Cao allowed the current Chinese government economic policies to be socially acceptable?
@@Bmc19234 I know this question wasn't for me but I think what is/is not socially acceptable is irrelevant in the context of almost 1800 years later, unless you're referring to the evolution/legacy of the tuntian system and the concept of the emperor/central government "owning" all the land. In this case the specific modern Chinese government policy of land distribution would be more socially accepted, but that might have to do more with recent Chinese history(Qing, KMT, WWII, CCP, etc.)
it would most definitely be a no as tuntian was not a revolutionary or long lasting policy as there were Dynasties before and after that adopted similar measures to varies success level. Economic policies change over time even under the same regime so it is hard to answer your question as it is very generic. Also it is hard to gauge social acceptance as what level of majority do you draw that line. For example, say the current Supreme Court rulings in the US, it is hard to say if they are socially acceptable (like acceptable by majority or the minority in power which are terrible concepts).
At the end of the day without getting to political, the Chinese people in general are highly pragmatic and less idealistic when compared to the West as I assume that is the framing you are coming from. Whether it is economic policies, faith, form of government, or whatever, results matter more than ideology. So the real social acceptance by the general population in China is more of a reflection of the trust gained by government policies since the opening up in 1978 and the economic growth that followed. This is not to say there are no mistakes in policies since 1978 or all is forgiven for the major mistakes beforehand. People aren't oblivious to it but as long as the general trend is in an upward trajectory, the vast majority are content which I think is a better word than socially acceptable in this case.
@@SeriousTrivia ah shoot I missed that part, thank you.
Hi Serious, not sure where else to ask this question but it came up in conversation today with my family: Why was the tomb of Emperor Qin not looted during the Han civil war? Tomb robbing seemed like such a big deal back then, and Confucian scholars did not revere the Qin dynasty.
traps! it is still unopened today because I think scans have shown large amounts of mercury inside. In addition the biggest concern today is preservation as we don't have the technology to preserve everything from the dig. Although archaeology has taken big steps in China with the recent dig at San Xing Dui so who knows if they will ever tackle Qinshihuang's tomb in the near future
@@SeriousTrivia Still, you'd think an ambitious warlord would be more than happy to send peons to their doom to loot the place given the fabulous wealth of the Qin. I mean.. 50% income tax! That's some serious stonks.
I suppose that's why mercury was used rather than conventional traps like the Egyptians used for their tombs, there's just no practical way to dig through a huge catacomb filled with poisoned soil if you're still an Iron Age civilization.
Thanks again for your amazingly informative work. Your well presented content and willingness to broch the history behind the mythos in tandem with the Romance itself have taught me about an aspect of history within a part of the world that I have been ignorant of for my entire life. Your little corner of the internet is my paradise.
@@SeriousTrivia I say the killing of craftsmen and laborers who build the tomb was wise and have an excellent foresight. Though it was pretty brutal and sickening. Who would have known Qin dynasty would collapse not even a decade after the first emperor died. Qin huangdi's tomb remain untouched while other emperors have their tombs looted and destroyed.
@@SuperCosmicSpaceMagnet the 50% tax rate might be to guide people to the path of war. Encouraging them to be soldiers.
Haven't finished the video, but wow the main character's parents were 16 and 17 years older only?
Being married at 15 is common so it’s definitely possible
@@SeriousTrivia Indeed, there's an old saying from Mozi. A man should be married by 20 and a lady should be married by 15 so that they can both go to their separate duties and keep on producing for the State.
Hello. I just started watching your channel. I see you did assassins creed Valhalla and odyssey. Is there any chance you could do origins? That would be great. Thanks
I don’t know if I am up for another 200 episode let’s play. Also I played origins before I started the channel so I might not revisit it
That’s ok. I bet it takes a lot of time to make these videos. It isn’t something I could do. So a big thanks for doing the videos that you do make. 😀
Nothing changed about merchants or kapitalists. They are the lowest for me. Even if they get rich xD
Is the tax on the unmarried girls the main cause for the husbands to marry their wife’s maiden as the first concubines? Like Cao Cao having Lady Liu, Sun Jian having Lady Chen
No families who have maidens can definitely pay that extra amount.
@@SeriousTrivia
Then, why is this type of taking in the wife’s maiden as the first concubine such a common thing?
This is a bit hard for modern day people to understand but usually the accompanying maid is the maid that grew up with the main wife. Now that the main wife is married to her husband’s family it is vital that she gets the oldest born son for her status to remain firm in her new family so maid now becomes an added security as in during the days when the main wife is on her period, she will offer to sleep with the husband to prevent other concubines from having a chance. She will also either abort the kid if she becomes pregnant or pass the kid off to the main wife if the husband’s family wants to keep the kid. It was all for the interest of the main wife that the accompanying maid becomes a concubine for the husband
...You know, it's a wonder you've never looked at the game 'Oriental Empires'.
I know of the game but it’s just a bit old to add to the channel
Wait, I'm confused, the Field Tax was double downed to 1/30 due to the Han Wudi's war with the Xiongnu, but this was made official by 155 bc by Han Jingdi???
Field tax went from 1/15 to 1/10 for the war then back to 1/15 before finally settling on 1/30.
The war referenced here is not Han Wudi’s campaigns but earlier wars with Xiongnu
Another question, Master Trivia, does widow have to pay the unmarried tax?
No
I am interested in Wang Mang Rebellion. Do you have any english sources on the internet that I can read? I don't understand how an upstanding man such as Wang Mang can become so powerhungry in such a short time.
Unfortunately I am not familiar with English sources
You can always check out his Wikipedia page for some general background. Most/all of the information is cited, so you can follow those if you would like to explore further.
I don't think it's accurate to say he became power hungry. I had a class with this for my students where we looked at both Zhao Kuangyin (the founder of Song) and Wang Mang, comparing and contrasting them, why did one fail while the other created a thriving empire? The idea here is that Wang Mang was a zealot. Someone who wanted to bring the world back to a made-up age. Not so different from our own fundamentalists in this era. Aside from the murdering and cruel methods he used to gain his position, I am sure he thought himself justified, now he could bring the world back to order and establish a lasting peace and prosperity for all. He was a visionary, but he allowed that vision to carry him into a labyrinth with no way out.
ST,I don't care who the IRS China sends...be it Lu Bu,Dong Zhuo,Gongsun Zan etc...
I WOULD NEVER PAY TAXES!!
Anarchy!!!
Need a slavery video
How can peasants climb the class system or become rich?
Maybe through the military during chaotic periods but generally there was very little social mobility
Do I have to watch this video to know it times of any troble no matter how small it was tax the poor....... Nothing has changed sence then it seems
noice