Heat Pump vs Oil Boiler. It's a no brainer.
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- #oilboiler #heatgeek #heatpumps
In this video, I take you through a retrofit installation of an air source heat pump from Vaillant. We replace an oil boiler with Vaillant Arotherm Plus 5kW heat pump and discuss the improvements to the new set up over the existing oil boiler in terms of comfort and running cost.
Link to this system Open Energy Monitor Page:
emoncms.org/ap...
Click here to get a heat pump quote from Urban Plumbers:
app.spruce.eco...
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Great to see more and more heat pumps on Open Energy Monitoring. It was a game changer for fine tuning our system.
We pretty much install it now on all systems
@johntisbury
I went for the cheaper non invasive OEM emonPi2 bundle (no heat meter; CT clamp & voltage monitor for power), at some point in future I might add in heat meter and electric meter to get measured COP (can get Carnot Simulated COP on current setup).
At this point in time though the information gleaned has been invaluable, allowing me to find what I think is the sweet spot on my Daikin 6k.
In process of navigating how to set up 'Heatpumpmonitor' display.
That is a huge improvement. My compliments to the owner as well.
Around here many landlords are often just horrible not even replacing single pane windows leaving the tenants with a huge gas bill.
Great video. We have had our heat pump for 3 years now which was a swap for oil and have never regretted it. Cheaper to run especially as we have solar too and as you say no smell. We also had the Rayburn converted to electric which is also cheaper to run and no smells in the kitchen
That's an interesting comparison. Thanks for coming up with and sharing.
Thanks for watching!
@@UrbanPlumbers takes some creativity to come up with new ideas all the time.
If you ever find yourself in Devon you can install my system and will take your advice on what you think I need rather than me thinking I know better = just another man = legend in my own mind.
I live in Devon and it’s much much cheaper to run oil than a heat pump. I have two properties and I regretted fitting the heat pump. It’s sooo expensive to run!
@@mollyfilms Wow really you’re the first person that’s actually said that , all we tend to hear how efficient they are compared to gas bills , I tend to look at things from a different angle anyway = I still can’t get my head around getting a heat pump to heat water to then heat radiators to give warmth when you can get heat pump to give direct heat with the ATA system , when I’ve mention that to a few people on UA-cam who do blogs it’s as though I’ve said something I shouldn’t and need to stand on a naughty step, I watched a gentleman a few months back who got a heat pump = ATW and took out all the radiators and changed it to ATA , said he should of done that in the first place , have you heard much in regards to ATA ? Funny watched the urban plumber last night where he changed oil to heat pump and said that the house hold will save lots on the heating now , sounds like it’s all one big fat lie then ?
No it’s not a lie. Sadly 70% of heat pump installs are not done correctly and end up in systems nowhere near as good as what we install. There is a missive skills shortage as the industry has been massively dumbed down by a combi boiler. It is slowly getting better.
@@UrbanPlumbers I was responding to a gentleman who sent me a message in regards to the fact he lives in Devon and wished he had kept his oil because the heat pump he had installed is more expensive to run , so I mentioned that I had watched your video and said you had said the opposite, so both can’t be correct. I understand what you said in regards to skill shortages unfortunately it seems to fall on the household to pay in the long run with having a bad system installed, I replied to heat geek and another person with heat pumps in mind , and mentioned both you and the heat geek gentlemen as the best on UA-cam and remarked with the look on your faces when you see different systems installed and items used that’s not needed or badly designed systems and one might add guess work rather than knowledge is apparent, so I mentioned today to a person is there or might be a good idea to have some kind of computer program so we the household can see what would be the ideal set up by putting into the program sizes of rooms etc, there are calculations as example for heat loss and different settings one can adjust on the thermostats etc , if there was a blueprint to coin a phase it would be handy for the installers and take the guess work out of the installation = also if you see the installers bring in 17 circulating pump and a buffer unit and expansion vessels by the truck load at least you can say straight away I’m in trouble here , on my conclusion I want to say to you go back and have a look at the comments I have sent to you over the last few months , in my lifetime I have never praised anyone as much as you = considering I was born that long ago that rainbows were only in black and white = not young but then the soul never ages , I say now again as far as you is concerned = my opinion stays the same as I have mentioned in my previous comments,
@@mollyfilms I just replaced an oil boiler with a heat pump in an old 170sqm house and it is definitely cheaper than oil overall for my particular install. Of course this will be down to the quality of the install. If you can get the flow temperature low enough, as a result of good design, you will always be cheaper than oil.
As usual a very professional installation. Nice job. It would be interesting to know how much the installation cost vs the cost of an installed replacement oil boiler. That's what most of my customers want to know, besides the cost of running. Thanks for a great channel.
same cost as new oil boiler if you dont include the radiators.
Ok, so changing to a heat pump and cylinder and pipework roughly equals the cost of replacing an oil boiler . I wish I wasn’t so skeptical as I’ve been involved with the fitting of a couple of heat pumps in the past and they certainly work. Maybe at some point you could show us the figures convert me. I’m open to it, not trying to be funny with you. You’re a really good installer 👍
Thoroughly enjoying your content, approach and explanations for the last 2 years!
Thank you big man!
Thumbs up.
Very happy with my OEM kit, really helps to understand what the system is doing and gives opportunities for fine-tuning. Would highly recommend it for anyone fitting an ASHP
Fantastic detailed overview of installation. Looking forward seeing you install a Heat Geek Mini Store and how it compares in the plant room.
Coming soon !
the bulk of my work is oil fired heating, when it comes time to change boilers most customers dont want to hear the words 'heat pump', probably because of all the early installs creating a lot of scare stories (which are mainly true around here).. its always good to get rid of the kero but for most customers the greenest thing they are willing to do is try HVO when its introduced. in the past I have taken out ASHP and replaced with oil because customers are cold and poor, these stories make their way out into the Welsh communities and people dont trust heat pumps after that.. there is a lot of educational, as well as physical work to do.
A properly calculated system! I am not anti-heat pumps in principle! But I have clients who have had a a heat pump installed (ie by cowboys!) only to have thrown it out after 1 winter in the Scottish highlands! I tend to advocate for a hybrid model ie with oil/gas and heat pump, controlled with weather compensation. I do agree follow the maths and the vast majority of the time heat pumps will satisfy most applications. Additionally a hybrid model will also provide heat and hot water in the event of heat pump or boiler failure/breakdown!
I replaced an oil combi boiler at my place with a heat pump - really is a no-brainer here. Oil costs €1.25 per litre = 10.5 kWh compared to electricity at €0.25 per kWh, so any COP > 2 is saving money. I’m using an Emoncms to monitor the system and I’m typically getting COP > 4. I’m still evolving the settings on the HP so can only get better! Plus the noise of the old boiler was like a jet engine in the basement, plus the smell there and in the garden!
We do need to factor if oil condenser boiler is cheaper upfront payment, running cost just part of equation
Oil is not anywhere near £1.25 ltr it’s about 67 p ltr and coming down
@@jeremydennis176 1232€/1000 litres today. YMMV!
They are using euros so may not be UK
@@eliotpalfreman1232 Worse over here in the Netherlands for natural gas. About 3/4 of the price is energy tax and VAT. Even a kWh of electricity is about 50% tax, but with a heat pump that still easily beats a gas bioler.
Yes, I agree, brilliant install. Thank you
I think in addition to being cheaper to run the house is always at a nice temp and you have balanced hot and colds with better flow on hot water than a combi.
Lovely copper work 👌
Very interesting. I may be taking over my mother’s house and it’s oil heating. Oil is relatively cheap at the moment but fluctuates in price massively. Her boiler is on its last legs and the oil tank will need replacing too. I’m guessing a new tank and boiler would run to about £6K, more if they need to be moved as regulations have changed in the last 40 years.
@bordersw1239 just been through the same thought process when my oil boiler needed replacing, together with an aging plastic 2500 liter oil tank (that would need to be replaced and moved and was out of warranty). Even if my insurance covered the potential £20,000 cleanup cost of a burst tank I am sure this event would have long term consequences for the value of my property. I am now safely running a very efficient heat pump that is not pushing massive amounts of small particles into the air for my kids to breath in. I could not be happier with my decision.
40 deg c is Luke warm rads! Cold house in winter! An oil/gas unit will give you 65/70 deg c! Over complicated system and very expensive to repair in future! Heat pump has 10-15 years tops life span! A well maintained oil/gas unit will give you 25-30. If the house was built before the 1980s a heat pump will struggle!
@user-xk8fg8yg5e stop talking about things you have absolutely zero clue about
@@RuaridhMacleod-z1r Only someone with no heating engineering skills would take one factor (flow temperature) and try to make a point from it. Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about .... sorry.
20 years oftec registered! I do know what I am talking about! In a modern property heat pumps will work ok! I have seen so many heat pumps literally thrown in without the proper calculations!
No brainer indeed! 😊
3 years ago, we moved from an LPG tank that the company now said was not allowed to be where it had sat for the last 50 years. So moved to ASHP and redid all the radiators as the others were the original and starting to go rusty. Thankfully got a fantastic RHI payment. I have a Midea ASHP and the app is bad, only counts in whole numbers for kWh usage and even though heating is off it claims it used 2 kWh for heating, rather than DHW. The house has been warmer and cheaper to run since having this ASHP fitted. Especially when used with a cheap overnight tariff!
So I have just bought the Open Energy Monitor Kit and waiting for it to be installed.
A video showing what parts are needing to be fitted and how it is fitted would be useful as nothing is out there that shows this. Also a ballpark figure for cost of fitting to an existing sytem would be helpful.
Interesting but modern condensing oil boilers do not smell (a friend of mine has one in her back garden). The oil tanker only has to visit about once annually I would have thought with a decent size tank? Maximum twice a year anyway. Notwithstanding not having to service the boiler is a bonus and additional cost saving.
Modern oil boilers have been low nox for number of years now . And average property doesn’t need anywhere near 2500 ltrs . 1000 to 1250 I’d say is normal as most home owners only buy 500-1000 ltrs at a time , I’ve quite few where 1000 ltrs lasts well over a year with decent insulation.
Hello. Very good content. Regarding the whisper-quiet heat pump, after my first winter with the arotherm plus, I can agrree it is quiet, except during defrosts or when running at 100%. And if you want to have few on/offs => not oversized Hp, you WILL run your HP at 100% when at outside desined temp of -3 outside (or -8C in my case).
Yes the way forward I totally agree. 🔥🔥🔥
I'd looked at replacement of the gas combi with a heatpump, but the capital cost (no grants here) killed it before even considering pipe upgrades in concrete floors.
What I did find baffling was the quoted annual running costs, 895 for oil, 820 for the heat pump for winters of -3 - That would be marginally under what I started with on my own 100m2 place on gas heating before beginning phased changes to insulation, monitoring temps, boiler run times, etc as I went.
A manual version of weather compensation made a big difference during big freeze events, max advantage taken from the condensing aspect - When the Buderus main-board blew in March hen it was -6, it brought forward the intended change to a load- compensated Viessmann (down to 3.2 rather than 8 kW) in summer. Not a pleasant experience, but job done...
Anyhow, to the cost aspect - Before closing the final phase of the thermal envelope last February, my annual gas bill was already at 380 quid equivalent - That is now headed to well under 300 for the next, and winters here go down to -16 now instead of -20 previously.
The final radiator upgrade and swap around in August will see 105-120% of calculated heat loss for every room when it's -16 outside, at -3 the rads are 150-180%.
If prices fall substantially for heat pumps here I might look again, but for now the combi will do me fine on 20-25% of the original gas consumption... Ok, it's not zero carbon, but a massive step in the right direction.
This is why I really do not understand the UK's blinkered view to insulation, it's baffling.
Open Energy began life as a bunch of like minded hobbyists, glad to see them grow over the years and become commercially successful - As boiler/etc manufacturers remain so bloody minded about interfacing, they will continue to fill the gap....
Superb explanation thank you.
great install and great video
What about compared to an electric powered boiler? I live in an apartment and only have an electricity bill as there is no oil. There is a combi boiler powering the shower and radiators but I'd love to get rid of the radiators as a plumber recommended. Would it be an idea to replace the boiler too to just use it to heat water for the shower? And then use electric radiators or underfloor heating? concrete floor. Apartment block is built in late 70's
Top work 👍🏻 love your videos
Thanks 👍
Here in Northern Ireland we have quite a few houses using Oil boilers. It's a nightmare.
props to the landlord for adding the renewables. Can they charge a bit more rent for their investment which reduces tenants' energy bills?
Not that we need to change ATM, but it goes to show that a properly running an oil boiler is quite competitive in terms of running costs. I can see the advantage removing oil in a rental property but, TBH, the hassle of having the oil topped up in our place two or three times a year isn't that big a deal and there is a sense of satisfaction if you can buy the oil when the price is low. That said, were our system to fail, I would seriously look at a heat pump (with the caveat below).
As others have posted lower down, it's a real shame that there are so few Heat Geek approved installers in the west country and that old housing stock makes the heat pump proposition less appealing. As I see over and over again, so many installers simply don't understand the heat pump technology and the consumers end up with a pretty inefficient system and, in effect, a raw deal.
Works lovely at 25 degrees outside, indeed.
We don't use Open Energy Monitor, but instead use the Ebusd project's logging. Using the data from that, I was able to confirm that our heat pump suffers from the Vaillant energy integral counting firmware issue - Not that the evidence matters as Vaillant doesn't care, but it's good to be able to just quickly pull that data out. We can also clearly see if it's cycling or not, how often it defrosts etc. We've also used it to experiment with the DHW plate loading setup.
I have a question about this install, on the central heating return you've used a press-fit ball valve. Are you not concerned about the maintainability of the valve or do you think that's a non-issue? I like press-fit, but I'm unsure how I feel about the ball valves.
Really detailed video and nice install. How much did this installation cost?
What? Where is the Heat Geek cylinder so you can boost that hot water COP?
Seriously though, your work is visually awesome and your videos are excellent.
Just waiting on Liam to fit our HG Elite system. Partly down to advice gained from your and Adam's channels.
Thank you so much.
Regular cylinders are much cheaper and with small heat pumps there isn’t as much benefit to fit super coils. Also - wait time now is 6weeks!
@@UrbanPlumbers I knew you would have a great explanation. My question was very tongue in cheek. Thanks for replying!
Your installations don’t seem to incorporate a method to prevent thermosyphoning from the tank. Is this not a concern?
Looks great, wish you could install my system at my home in Cornwall
Why does an unvented cylinder need pressure release to the outside? In my boiler room, in the basement, there is a normal drain...
If you have drainage nearby then it doesn't have to go to the outside.
Great video. Have you got a link please to your lagging and capping for the outdoor pipes
Any thoughts on the Newark Heat Geek cylinders for installations vs. Vaillant's own cylinder?
I've had a ground-source heat pump for 3 winters now and very happy with it. However, I would be very curious to see what the actual SCOP it is achieving.
What are the components needed?
Can I integrate such a monitoring system in my Home Assistant?
And what is that small box with the transparent housing to the right of the black Energy Monitoring unit on the wall at 9:50?
Many thanks for the interesting video 👍
Piping looks very nice, electrics on the “plant room” looks like a dogs breakfast.
Thanks
I am buying at Installer 👍
Haha no drama!
Did you use the pre lagged pipe in the loft? What fittings did you use on the pipe work? Where did you get white ducting from for external pipe work?
yes - preinsulated mlcp with mclp fittings.
How comes you got the blow off from the expansion tank connected? I thought the vaillant was a partial monobloc and has it built in to the external unit?
No, 5kw and 7kw don’t have PRV built in only 10 and 12 do
@@UrbanPlumbers ah right. That’s another revelation!! 🙄😫
Can you please explain why you always use valiant heat pumps? Do you have a deal with them
I don’t have a deal with them. Vaillant is amazing value for money. Very decent unit, controls are fine, good company to deal with, very easy to wire, perform well.
Compared to Vaillant units like Mitsubishi, Samsung or Daikin are a total nightmare to install and wire.
@ 4:04 Why not use a magnetic filter/separator instead of a Y filter?
I really hate this tipe of Y filter - with the time the cap gets stuck and many times I have to hit it with a spanner or a hammer to crack the fused pieces of metal…(brass is the only metal on witch the metal cristals are fusing together in the earth atmosphere … other metals or metal alloys need vacuum to merge together by themselves)
I’d love if we could update the commentary on noise from being silent for years to being silent for decades. Is that achievable or how far off are we?
Is there a rule or no. When you combining 3 d1 pipes it needs to be upsized? Say for 3 15mm d1 you need to upsize last tee to 22 and tundish will 22 to 28?
@ 9:02 Are you sure? 😊
You’re secret favorite brand (😅 :D ) Viessmann can do almost the unimaginable on their ground to water heat pump from at least 2015-2016 😊
You can see everything; status of all the internal sensors; electronic expansion valve status for the refrigerant; efficiency, power output; power input, heat curves… all in one product; even graphic simulation of the refrigerant circuit 😊 …. Power and efficiency day by day….
I think the rest of the industry are just copying them 😅
We had an oil tank and combi and it didnt smell so thats not really a good reason to switch, plenty of other reasons though as you mention but space would be an issue in a lot of homes.
Ohh trust me - this one stank
Love your videos very skilled job again.
Just watched the new heat geek video, what's your opinion about the new cylinder.
It’s a game changer. I will be testing it soon at my own place - video coming soon!
@@UrbanPlumbers OOOOH man can't wait for that one, Christmas is coming early this year .
Crikey 63p for oil, when I last used oil for heat it was 12p more or less and if I got together with the neighbours for a big delivery we could shave another 1/2p.
59p per litre.
I dont understand how its that cheap. In my country there is no thing as heating oil anymore, you just get to pay the pump diesel price for it. 1.60€ a litre.
@@garage3022 UK has always had cheap(er) oil for heating & agriculture. There's 20 second oil which is kerosene & 35 second which is diesel. The cheap diesel is dyed red.
Hi... I live in Ireland.... would you provide a system design only service?
Can I ask, if this system runs at 40C, the old system would of run at 80C, so unless you change all the radiators in the house ( they would grow in physical size) and the pipework how will it maintain say 21C at -2C? Asking for a friend.
We did both - changed all rads and pipework (it was easy here as we run new primary pipework in the loft) - existing pipework to the rads was fine and didn't need chaning.
@@UrbanPlumbers Ahh yes, I thought so, so basically a new system, what did it cost, when you look at capital cost v savings, I can’t help thinking it would be a very slow ROI, maybe a ten year plus turnaround. So the question is why bother?
Don’t get me wrong, I love what you guys do, I just think it’s all smoke and mirrors. Are you up in Birmingham next week, I’d love to catch up.
Yep - will be at installer. The total cost of this system was around £1k maybe 2k more than just swapping the oil boiler and repairing existing system. However if BUS grant wasn’t available at 7.5k then this wouldn’t make much sense in pure financial terms.
So the heat pump will save you £75 a year? And what was the full cost of the installation? And out of warranty repairs for the oil boiler vs the repair of the heat pump... doesnt sound like it was worth doing on this occasion, he could have ran the oil boiler for years with just the installation fee of the heatpump.. great video as always! Very knowledgeable guy!
cost of new oil boiler was exactly £1,000 less than the heat pump and all new radiators. With solar PV and battery storage he will save mroe like £900 a year. He is in a good position as he can get solar and stoage for a fraction of the going rate.
For the landlord it was more about not having to use oil as this system should way more maintance free. Also - that oil set up was already dead, needed upgrading anwyay.
And what about the cost of solar panel and battery system? That £75/year saving will take 400years to pay off. I agree with you. Not worth all that additional cost.
It's like people at work that say they saved £100, but forgot they spent £1000 to do so!
Or used oil filled radiators and put his thousands in the bank that would have paid for the running costs and had some left over.
Companies only want to fit all this as there must be a government payment or grant.
@@OH2023-cj9if oil-filled radiators would cost £4,000 a year to run so a pretty stupid idea.
Having a smart meter can also open up time of use tariffs to further reduce the cost.
What exact parts do I need to buy to install an open energy monitor onto my system?
You need a heat meter suitable for your system, mid meter, wiring between fuse board and the plant room, spare water in the fuse board for the mid meter, cat5 cable from the router to the plant room and a spare single socket in the plant room. It requires cutting into pipework as well - so Plumbig. And electrical works are required. It really a DIY job.
Do you have any videos of you fitting a heat pump with multiple underfloor heating manifolds and radiator circuit?
Yes
@@UrbanPlumbers which video is it? Thanks
@ 4:26 I really hate the ideea of 10 boxes on the wall… they could use plug in cards in the main controller just like ram memory cards in computers… but they are greedy ….
If you fit open energy monitor, this goes on the primary's? So what if primary is 35mm ? Arnt the sensors max size 28mm ?
It doesn’t matter what size the primary piepwork is as long as you use correct heat meter.
Arghhh Y plan!! Why not S? Also what was the heat loss of the building as I suspect there is no floor insulation and there should be cavity wall insulation as the bricks are stretcher bond? Great work BTW and thanks for imparting your knowledge.
It’s not a Y plan. It’s a reversed valve with 3 wires only (diverter only normally closed to DHW)
@@UrbanPlumbers I think it's W plan isn't it?
Correct, no floor insulation, however the engineered wood floors with foam underlay combined with carpets and Cloud 9 underlay does a good job. The cavity wall insulation had sunk creating damp walls, so we got it removed and replaced with Thermabead Carbonsaver Bead Cavity Wall Insulation which has made a big difference.
Awesome! No insulation in the loft?
Yes, 300mm going in after Urban Plumbers came out, didn't make sense to fill the loft up and make their work more difficult.
@@christianfaversham3766 Awesome!
is this uk ?
yes
10% cheaper...ROI on that? I have heat pumps but I went air to air as it's an old farmhouse and too expensive to seal up, insulate add heat exchangers for fresh air flow.
Coupled with PV and battery storage it will be free to run.
how will that system manage with hot water for showers?
No problem at all. It has 200 unvented cylinder so good for up 4 people.
The unvented cylinder provides mains pressure hot water at exactly the right temperature (usually @ 43-45C), a shower head attached to mixer taps, where turning on HW is all that's needed for a brilliant shower.
I rarely seen an air conditioner who managed to run for 10-15 years (usually Daikin and Mitsubishi) - and the air conditioners only run for 2-4 months in a year in my country 😅
I expect even the most expensive ones will have some ugly faults in less than 10 years if they are running for @ 6 months/year… I don’t say that is not possible for some of the heat pumps to reach 15-20 years but I don’t expect that from Vaillant…
At recent(2-3years old) @100kw Vaillant boilers the impellers of the EBM Papst fans are disintegrating😅😂 … we have a lot of them failing at schools and churches 😅😂; we have a lot of 3 way valves from Vaillant failing apart in warranty 😅; electronic filling valves …. And this are extremely simple parts to make right … I will never trust Vaillant on a heat pump product 😅
Cost of the upgrade?
With the BUS grant taken off, the total job was equal to the cost to replace a 25 year boiler and new radiators.
Let’s hope the ashp lasts 20 years!
Hmm, if the oil boiler had reached the end of its life may be yes heat pump but even then only because of the boiler improvement grant. If the oil boiler is still in good working order what would have been the reduction in running costs achieved by bringing it up to the same standard of insulation that you are putting in for the heat pump and adding modern weather compensated controls. I guess 20 % plus for very little capital outlay.
The economics would then be such that you couldnt recover the capital costs of the heat pump within its 10 year life span. Of course at that 10 year point its likely than you will have to stump up the full cost of the replacement heat pump 4 times the cost of a replacement condensing oil boiler?
I can see the value of heat pumps in mew installations but im afraid Im still unconvinced about conversions, by the way theres absolutely no way that the solar panels you can fit on that roof will generate enough electricity to power your heat pump through the winter either.
new oil boiler was the same cost as new heat pump
@@UrbanPlumbers so the heat pump and new system came in at £1500 - 2500? What was wrong with the old boiler? Its very unusual for a condensing oil boiler not to be repairable. What happens when the heat pump compressor fails after 8 years and its not repairable?
A heat pump system is certainly a consideration but its far from being a no brainer.
@paulhutchinson5695 new oil boiler supply and fit was 5-6k
Is that unit an r32 or 290
R290
@@UrbanPlumbers the exclusion zone is just to big on the 290 going to prevent a lot of installations in my opinion
A great install, but just for balance we both know that ASHP will not last 20 years, it will be obsolete in 3; your estimated SCOP is optomistic. Thermal efficiency of house will mean the cumulative heat loss due to running all day will weigh against it when compared to oil which will need roughly only an hour, at most, to heat that house up. Also kerosene is more than x4 cheaper than electricity.
Average scop of all my 40 installs is 4.5 so not optimistic - realistic. 15 years lifespan no sweat on those.
@jonnysegway7866 Most people in this country already own a couple of heat pumps and don't even know it, you probably do to. The heat pump in my fridge is still working after 18 years and it cycles a lot (by design). On for 20 mins off for 40 mins ... for the last 18 years. The heat pump in my 16 year old Volvo is just showing signs of needing a gas top up.
Since I heat up my hot water cylinder on off peak electricity @16p / kWh at a COP of 2.5 (equivalent to 6.4p / kWh), oil would need to be @6.4p per kWh to match my heat pump. Oil is currently at 13.8p / kWh so 2x more expensive than my heat pump. I should add that my heating SCOP is over 4.
Running a kero boiler system for 1 hour and 23 hours off doesn't warm the home. FYI on an 8.5p British Gas off peak EV tariff and a confirmed COP of 4.65 equals 1.8 pence per kilowatt hour, the best you could get from kero is 7p per kwh. Storing the EV tariff kwhs into a DIY battery storage you lose 10% still brings you under 2p per kwh. Of course if you have solar panels you don't buy in so much off the grid.
@@christianfaversham3766 I only need it warm in the evenings, plus my house is typical of many in the UK and thermally inefficient so little benefit to running all day. What is your electricity tarrif for the other 16 hours or so? Also when comparing need to factor in capital costs of batteries spread over predicted lifespan. I think if you are planning to live in your house 20 years+ it may be worthwhile and see some payback.
@@jonnysegway7866 The solar panels power the heat pump (HP) throughout the day. On cloudy days, the lithium-ion batteries keep the HP running. If the batteries are depleted, they can be recharged overnight using the EV tariff at 7p per kWh. With a SCOP of 4.6, each kWh from the HP costs only 1.5p.
Back in 1998, kerosene cost me 7p per litre. Over the last 12 months, it averaged 70p per litre. Fast forward 25 years, and it will likely reach £7.00 per litre or more. My Grant combi boiler was becoming a hassle, so we got rid of it and the oil tank. We applied for and received a £7,500 BUS grant. We also added loft insulation to a total of 300mm. Last winter, I tested low-temperature heating with flow temperatures around 40°C.
The drawback of turning on HP heating in the evenings is that the thermal mass (the walls) doesn’t store heat during the day. If the walls are cold, an HP with a 40°C flow won’t make a big difference in a short time.
To answer your question: I considered the cost of replacing the Grant combi boiler, added the cost of another full tank of kerosene, and factored in the BUS grant. This effectively got me the heat pump for free. Solar panels are £55 each if you install them yourself. Also, the money saved from not maintaining or repairing the combi boiler could cover the cost of an inverter and a battery.
I hope this helps explain my long-term reasoning.
It will only take about a hundred years to pay for itself...🤣
As it was the landlord who installed it and the tenant who will save on bills I think we can assume they had other reasons for doing it.
@@AmosMoses777 Stupidity???....
I would guess environmental reasons. There is also every chance that oil boilers will be phased out in the next years. So why not replace it now when there is grant money available?
If your tenants have low bills then you're less likely to have problems with rental arrears.
Also likely to have tenants who stay long term if the bills are lower than they would get elsewhere.
Off the top of my head that's three. Together we found FOUR potential reasons.
System will be much more reliable than gas or oil. There will be no bills to pay. House is always warm and no needs to think about turning the thermostat on or off.
For the cost of new oil boiler they got a full new heating system.
No brainier
@@AmosMoses777 Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost
Seriously? You could probably heat that bungalow on a diesel heater, heat recovery and up to date insulation levels
You really suggest that a family with kids runs a diesel heater? 😂 what part of: the tenants will pay zero bills is worse than a diesel heater?
But when you factor in 20 grand for the system. Not good.
He states 5-6k for an oil boiler and fit. An extra 1k on this for the heat pump and radiators after grant. And then more for the batteries and solar separate.
I hate my oil boiler with a passion.
Why ?
I'd have my oil boiler back any day .there's four of us in your house if one has a bath before the rest have showers you run out of hot water that's with 250ltr tank .and you have to leave it on 24/7 for heating .if you havnt got solar and battery storage it's a road to financial ruin.
Definitely not a no brainier , clickbait
Do the maths yourself. Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost
Is Global Warming 'a no-brainer' !!!!
Utter tripe, will cost in kwh usage,
this house needs 9000 kWh per year for heating. This translates to £720 worth of oil per year at 65p per liter on an oil boiler or 2000 kWh of electricity at 0.22 per kWh on this heat pump running scop of 4.1 sp around £440 for heat pump heating.
However - the scop here will be definitely highier than 4.1, and you can check it yourself on open energy monitoring linked under the video. Also, the property has solar and battery PV - simply meaning there will be absolutely no bills to pay for both: heating and hot water.
It's a rich man's perk. A beautiful system, beautifully installed, but it saves not a penny in running costs. Tell us, Szymon, the actual cost.
With 20 million gas fired houses, probably £300 billion for installation costs plus £30 billion a year for maintenance and replacement. On top of that £100,000 per house to strengthen the grid. That is the official figure (total cost £3 trillion) from National Grid ESO.
We will have a nation of very poor householders and very rich plumbers.
Will it make any difference? Not a lot because when the demand is greatest, on those windless cold winter days, we will still rely on gas power stations. The pro-net-zero BBC says that such plans are 'highly ambitious'. That's the word they use which means 'impossible'.
As Szymon noted, the kerosene boiler was 25 years old, and the metal oil tank was rusty inside. On hot sunny days, the smell of kerosene was unbearable. As a taxpayer for 50 years who has never drawn any benefits, I accepted the BUS grant, which reduced the cost of the Heat Pump installation to £1,000, the same amount I would have spent replacing the kerosene tank. So, financially, it was a break-even situation with no additional expense. With a British Gas EV tariff, the heat pump costs 1.8p per kWh. Adding a few solar panels and a battery reduces the demand on the grid. Australians use the same arrangement to alleviate peak demand on their grid.
Absolutely you did the right thing for you and I very much wish both you and Szymon well. But the economics don't allow everyone to do what you did.
1. We can't all pay each other many thousands, for everyone to have a subsidised heat pump. The BUS scheme which funded you is pump priming to ramp up the industry, like the 43p/unit feed in tariff for the first domestic solar panels, to whom the poorer majority are still paying more than current electricity prices.
2. 7.9p/u cheap night electricity would not remain cheap if night demand increased with more heat pump and EV demand.
3. Latest contracts for wind are being placed at up to 17.6p/u. That's the price that the grid PAYS to the wind farm for EVERY SINGLE UNIT, even the ones you use at 7.9p. That pushes up the day rate for everyone, which is only held low by gas power stations.
4. Solar panels/battery gear costs over £8k for an installed 5 kWh - 5u. With the average domestic demand being 7.4u/day, that might supply just enough solar electricity on a sunny day and battery storage for the evening peak. But it won't if you add around 20u/day for your heat pump.
5. Installed costs of battery storage are around £5000 for a 5u battery. If you want it to last more than 1000 cycles, you only charge it to 80% and discharge it to 20%. So the real storage is 3u. If you use all that capacity every day for 20 years (and your battery won't last that long) that's 20p/u simply for the storing of any electricity you put in. 6. A 1200 litre oil tank holds 12,000u of energy, thousands of times more than a 5u solar battery. We are not Australia: in the winter where, periods of dunkelflaute last sometimes for weeks and solar/batteries contribute nothing, oil boilers place no demand on the grid. Shift every oil and gas boiler to the grid and we find enormous peak winter demand which, on those dark, windless winter evenings, have to be met by gas power stations and an enormously strengthened electricity grid at £100,000 per home.
7. I know it's not easy but more transparency in the whole industry would really help. For instance 'My heat pump installation cost £17,000', or whatever would be so much clearer than 'with the subsidy it only cost £1000 more than...'
Good wishes
@@markellse my priority is to have the most cost effective solution over a 5 year plan. The Grant outside combi boiler, kero tank, pipwork and wiring was all too old and giving problems. To replace the boiler, fuel tank, dispose of the scrap, transfer the kerosene, commisison a new kero combi boiler was going to cost circ £7k + £20% vat £8,400. The Grant Vortex outside combi boiler has to be on 24/7 which uses average 1 litre fuel per 24hr period holding temperature for on demand DHW and or CH = 365 litres per annum wasted. If you add £7,500 grant onto £8,400 that gives you circa £16k to play with, no agro and no smells. Add on another £1,000 for 1,825 wasted litres of standby kero over 5 years, you now have a new Heat Pump, new bigger Radiators, Monitoring, Guarantee, and a few quid left over for a fish and chip celebration supper ! Solar panels and a battery doesn't have to be through the roof if you can do DIY, fit and source yourself. I get your point about the grid demand, Rolls Royce should be suppling SMRs in the UK soon which will help suport and balance EV and HP demand. Trying to get across the long term financials, when an old system is uneconomical to repair, it's good to look ahead to something more cost sensible than keep pumping cash into a dead duck.
@@christianfaversham3766Thanks, Christian, for that very informative and interesting information.
Your decision makes sense from your point of view and I can see why you did it.
There is a lot of sense in a well engineered heat pump setup. It's very elegant - heat leaks from the hot house into the cold surroundings and we use just a little bit of electricity to pump an equal amount back in.
But the whole system complexity scribbles over the elegance. Since wind is variable, it has to be backed up with an equal amount of gas generation and as many new gas power stations as wind farms. The power stations are run intermittently to fit in with the wind, so are therefore run inefficiently. The capital cost and the embodied energy in supply to the grid is much increased, on top of the grid hardening already discussed.
Solar, on the other hand, I don't think makes any sense in the UK. It's contribution is negligible and it comes at a time when the grid is generally in surplus, producing efficiency losses for gas power stations greater than the benefits of its contribution.
But for all, maintenance and replacement costs may the determining factor. I'm struggling to find someone to get my car heat pump serviced. (I mean the one that pumps heat out in sumner.) I'd hate to have that for my main heating system.
GW, Mark
He must be getting well paid by the heat pump manufacturers for promoting these heat pumps they cost a fortune to install and run and are no use in a cold climate like Scotland.
Tell me about your "Cold" climate in Scotland.
Heat pump manus would rather keep selling boilers as it easy money for them. Scotland is not a cold climate and heat pump work perfectly well there. No one pays me apart for happy customers
@rabhaw2327 in this country we very rarely install gas and oil boilers to run as efficiently as possible. If we can't even get those [legacy] systems installed optimally, it is no surprise that that the majority of installers in the UK can't be bothered to install heat pumps properly (heat pumps are likely more sensitive to incompetence than gas and oil in terms of installed running cost)
There are more heat pumps in the colder Norway! than Scotland. They work very well (ask a Norwegian) Scandinavians are better educated on heating and Global Warming!!!
The Emperor's new clothes. Who would invest so much to heat a small bungalow?
Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost
Perhaps some people are concerned about Global Warming !!!!
Excellent video (and installation) as usual. 👍I have had a look at the monitoring page and it is performing really well. That is a small property with commensurately low heat loss it will be interesting to see how it handles the shoulder months with regards to cycling. The new combi cylinder may have been a good application for this property.😉 Syzmon can you recall what design flowrate you were expecting on the system compared to what was achieved during commissioning from the Open Energy flow meter?
Nice to see a Landlord looking after the property and their tenants too.👍
@UrbanPlumbers I love what you are doing to the industry and myself have learnt a lot, I’ve just moved from a company that in stuck in the old ages of instals, I’m going self employed and will be getting away from zoning and using glycol. I’m going to move from ecodans to vailliant heat pumps, would you be able to do a video more on the controls and set up? If you have done this could you point me to the right video? Also do you find any issues in big properties without zoning? Thanks
That video on controls is on a never ending list of videos to be made
@@UrbanPlumbers haha I can understand, but well done on slowly changing the heating game in this country
Would like to see you do a video on Sunamp, they can’t make them quick enough , lots of Scottish councils are using them instead of cylinders now, especially in small and social houses with limited space and limited heating requirements in summer.