Nah man I'm hoping America finally balkanizes themselves. The general region of California would probably be its own country, as would Texas. New York could be a city-state. The mid-west or fly-over area would end up as one or several large, but impoverished countries, considered ass-backwards religious hicks by people in the coastal countries. Maybe Mexico and Canada can snag up some ground, too, or simply annex entire states when there's no one stopping them. And in true Balkan fashion, all of these people who used to live in the same country will hate each other's guts based on ethnolingual, religious and historical grievances, too busy fighting each other to destabilize the Middle East.
I’m glad you talked about this series. From afar, it looks like some weird racist wannabe LARPing in the form of novels. It’s clearly much deeper than that, and it deserves much more credit.
There were a few things about this series that I appreciate because I never thought about them before. The native American tribes are better off, as they can pick a side & be used as proxies to raid the other side, so it's to each countries' benefit to tolerate & even encourage their autonomy. I also like how labor unions fought an uphill battle in the USA until the war started, then it was to the companies' interest to settle as the federal government would pay for industries to convert & increase output adap.
"didn't nationalise industry or lynch landlords. Pity." "Whichever quagmire we get pulled into next. Where will it be? Iran? China? Venezuela? Cuba? Guess we'll find out in the next ten years." Tullos are his hilarious best.
I have some Harry Turtledove books my friend gave me. He said they're great, but I feel a little uncomfortable carrying around books with swastikas and confederate flags. I doubt many people would assume great things about me...... I'll read them privately
I do like this alternative book far more than .....other books, because they don't suger coat history and the opposition doesn't win via magic or bless with knowledge by the eldrich gods It also opens up actual critism of real historical politics rather than just being, "wouldn't it be cool if"
I'm sure on the "not sugar coating history" part, because there are writers who use AH as a way to justify their personal views or just blatent nationalist wish fulfillment. There are two examples I can think of: one is Star and Stripes forever --- Which is basically just 'Murica --- and an 9/11 alternate history where the US *NUKES* the city Mecca, resulting causes every Muslim in the Middle East to give up their faith.
Ain't that the truth. The same can also be said for a lot of science fiction/speculative fiction, because the people with cool ideas aren't neccesarily great writers (and vice versa).
Turtledove has so many great ideas for overall plots, and I love how he’s not shy about exploring Jewish identity in fiction (I’ve never seen a mainstream author as proudly and openly Jewish as him) but whew, his writing can draaaaaaaaaag. James Tullos said it right when he said the characters weren’t so much characters as lenses through which society is examined. Which is cool, but not super fun to read lol
I think you summarized the theme of the series excellently given what I know and recall of the context of the series and of Turtledove himself. A shame that some people don’t share his anti-fascist/monarchist views given the proven harm they’ve done. Regardless, I think you gave a good explanation on your takeaway and hope to see more from you in the future
You just reminded me that in the event of a war with the USSR, my own cute little social democracy had the official policy to round up all known members of the Communist Party and their sympathisants (including hundreds of thousands of union workers) and put them in concentration camps. Did I mention that many members of the Communist Party had fought against the nazis during World War Two?
the thing that actually makes American history exceptional and what largely caused it to become a global hegemon in our time is how completely spared the land itself was by WWII. America got all the spoils of victory, but none of the costs. There was no fighting or invasions on the continent, and even its oppressive war crimes (the internment camps) ended with no deliberate deaths and even financial reparations. compare that to what Czechs, Poles, and Russians did to German minorities in their countries after the war in retaliation and you'll learn just how lucky the US was, from its state power elites to even its minorities.
The American camps were internment camps. More people came out of the camps then went in. They were not the death camps of Nazi German, the Gulags of Soviet Russia, or the disastrous Concentration Camps the British used on the Boars in South Africa. Locking up people because of nationality/ethnicity is disgraceful but to compare the American Camps to the Nazi’s is in no way s one on one comparison.
If you want a good book of alternative history, read "The Island of Crimea" by Vasily Aksyonov. Civil war mentioned as well, but Russian one, which is already makes it 1000 times more interesting
Damn, you made me want to read this! I agree that a lot of alternate history I've read didn't go that far. So it would be interesting to dive into Turtledove's work. I wish I could find a book like that about French history, since it's my country! Thanks for the video!
But what? The CSA started to industrialize during the war it makes sense that would have continuned if they had won. To fight a war you need an army and stuff to equip them with.
Yea, during the war the CSA had quite a large industrial base in Alabama and Georgia around Birmingham and Atlanta. Nothing on the Union’s level… But, it was large enough to pump out quite a bit of ironclads, guns, artillery, etc… They were still mostly agricultural/slave based but were evolving during the war. The CSA can go kick rocks along with anyone who supports them tho. (Not saying you guys do… Just throwing this out for the “Muh CSA” folks) 😎😎😎
the best thing about the series is that it doesn't go full dystopian like with other alternative histories books it shows you that earth is far worse off but not completely hopeless people are still going about there lives despite being in a worse situation
@@demilembias2527 Vietnam and Afghanistan aren’t defensive losses either. Vietnam l, the north actually signed a peace agreement that held for two years until Nixon got in trouble with watergate. Afghanistan was the ineptitude of the American public and our politicians to stomach a long term conflict. Militarily, the US won uncontestedly. I remember thinking of it as a game of whack a mole watching the taliban come out of the mountains of Pakistan and cross into the border before raining heavy fire down on them and they scurry back across the border were we couldn’t engage.
I've thought about re-reading this series, or the WorldWar/Colonization series, but I just can't bear to face the constant repetition. Turtledove writes as if his readers have the memories of goldfish. I wish there were abridged versions where I didn't have to read the same character traits exposited over and over again every 50-100 pages.
The most unrealistic part is that even the Union’s Overton Window would ever be and remain sufficiently left enough to allow a Socialist party to gain sufficient influence. Even the US Labour movement only took a brief time to fall to classic American individualism and atomisation. Not that the same hasn’t happened everywhere, but the US’s famous enthusiasm for refusing to engage in anything that smells like collectivism makes it especially notable.
Without the South the US would lean quite a bit more to the left. Maybe not enough for a socialist party to be genuinely powerful. In 1914 only a couple of countries had a strong left wing. But it would certainly be less rightwing. So far fewer americans ranting about 'America is a christian nation' or 'gun rights are inviolable'.
The US labor movements that were hunted down and killed by the US army and privately-owned militaries belonging to industrialists? Not a natural death, dear
I don´t think so. One of the big points that due to the US loosing 2 wars in humiliating fashion and starts copy the German Empire and not just in a military aspect the anti collectivism spirits weakens drastically.
Like a lot of people like to think that Mexico and Central America would have been easy to conquer, but like Mexico was able to expel William Walker over ten times and the only time Walker succeeded in conquering a country, he was expelled from Central America through a coalition of Central American nations and the UK .
Somewhat ironically the only other franchise I can think of where America gets its shit pushed in... is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. The first game revolves around the Americans getting their army nuked and the world having to be saved by the Brits (lol). And then the second game has the US somehow get Red Dawned by modern Russia (again lol) while their Nato allies get nuked into oblivion.
What are your thoughts on Guns of the South? It struck me as a bit of a white-washing of Robert E. Lee's views on slavery and the black population of the Confederacy, although it did have a lot of interesting ideas. Also yes, after reading World War, Harry Turtledove loves his weird and awkward sex scenes
@North Sea Pirate There's way more differences than just that. I'd still like to see James do a video on that book so he can rip it to shreds and make fun of it.
i do feel bad for him, because while he is great at creating detailed and good alternative history worlds, he is pretty terrible at writing characters.
@@griffinhunter3206 Hey, what's so bad about a character who constantly tells us that he has sensitive skin, and that he has to put on zinc oxide at all times? This is peak storytelling I'll have you know.
I find your characterization of both sides being culpable in various conflicts, such as israel and palestine to be victim-blaming, the people of palestine are a colonized people who are victims of ethnic cleansing, they shouldn’t have to “give anything up” to get peace, their fight against oppression can’t be equivocated to the violence of their oppressors
So glad to see other ppl showing solidarity for Palestine There cannot be peace between two peoples when they are engaged in a colonial relation. Anymore than there can be peace between classes engaged in an exploitative relation. Demanding peace under such conditions is tantamount to supporting the colonial regime; hopelessly naive and willfully ignorant at best, or grossly reactionary at worst Decolonization, like Class Struggle, is violent by necessity
@@bizkit8538 nope Israel has the right to defend itself against attack. Palestinians don't have the right to attack unarmed people. Just like Israel doesn't have that right either.
12:46 oh boy then do I have a recommendation for you. Try out the fever king, the US is overthrown and split into two different countries, and that gets seen as a mostly good thing
@@Merrick Well, if a victorious south did industrialise after the civil war, it wouldn't be wild to assume that they'd use slaves as their workforce; like what Atun Shei said in one of his Checkmate, Lincolnites videos: a slave-based economy and an industrial one aren't necessarily incompatible.
In the series, the South begrudgingly "freed" their slaves through "manumission" because Britain and France told them so lest they had to stand against the US alone during the Mexican War. It's shown in the American Front that the Southern factories are extremely unsafe and are staffed by both poor whites, and blacks who are unable to have their own surname. I read the series, though I enjoyed it and enjoy much of Turtledove's work, I do acknowledge the many flaws.
@@taptiotrevizo9415 I don't dispute that for a second; I was just saying that if (and that's a big "if") the Confederacy were to industrialise, it wouldn't mean they would no longer have slaves.
They spell it out in the book, CAS have not the military might to occupy USA, and it quite hard to demand anything then you are being overrun by US, and only "saved" by a German victory in Europa.
You should read my material, The Valyrian Dragons, The Dragon of Krypton and The Azure Flame, is basically what you are describing here, not matter if a galactic conflict or a local conflict in a planet, even if they come victorious, it always with a cost, with half a city in flames or destroyed, or in my first story, my main character lose 80% of his army and barely come out alive, sure, that really killed his arrogance, but left him with mental scars and PSTD, it began as experiment if I could write again, and now is very popular in Deviant Art, sure, I have ups and downs, I not have a huge ego to admit that some arcs were as popular as hoped to be, but people really seems to like it, if you would read it, keep in mind that my early chapters are crap, because I didn't have a proper translator and editor.
When advertising your own books it's a good idea to reread the copy you are presenting and edit it so it is grammatically correct. Your entire paragraph is one incorrect sentence. Not something you want when you're promoting works that are made up entirely of prose.
@@DrawbackDrawback Actually I more interested in his opinion than actually promoting my work, my work is already popular in Deviant Art, even with the ups and downs, I only need now a editorial willingly to publish my material, but yeah, my early chapter had very poor grammar, because very poor translator and worse edition, but the originals are well, because English in not my mother language, I only publish in English because it attracts the most amount of readers.
@@TheKeyser94 Fair enough. But that's my point. You are advertising the novels to him. He may read your advertising copy and pass on reading the novels because of the first impression it provides.
@@DrawbackDrawback They are hardly novels, they aren't publish on paper, I am at the state of the Metro 2033 author was, just chapters in the internet, only a huge amount of chapters, hell, I didn't even know that would be successful, this was nothing more than a experiment after ten years of writing block, I wanted to write something that George RR Martin didn't have the balls to do so, and when he did was in a history book format. I would like his opinion that all.
I do agree that the whole reason the USA grew so big, is because they had no enemies around, so they could build an industrial base on peace, and export the war to other places The moment the war happens in american soil, that industrial growth stops, and they lose the advantage of overwhelming military reserves Thats why 9/11 was such a big deal, because it was the first time the american citizens suffered a bombing in civilian areas, even while they do that to other countries all the time For example, the idea that they could simply "buy" mexican states is stupid, the times when it "happened" was because the mexican government welcomed USA migrants so they could help them develop the northern states, then once the muricans grew numerous enough they "declared independence" and were backed by the USA's military power Once there is a hostile neighbor, it becomes impossible to amass such military reserves, and the whole reason the USA was so important during WW2 was because they could produce resources at grand scale The USA's power is production, not military, and the reason of their decline is the constant outsourcing of production industries to cheaper countries On that area, it is true that without the USA the world would be less developed, because they were an important focus of world wide production that allowed poorer countries to export raw materials and import industrialized goods, setting up their own industrial foundation The reason the military has so much praise in the USA, is because they allow them to keep their hold on other countries' resources, but the focus shifted from praising industrialization to praising the military that guards the industrialization
Being fair to Wolfenstein, his mother is also Jewish and his father is abusive and he spent his entire childhood with his father holding his mother and him effectively captive, threatening to give her to the Nazis to be killed often.
While the series is generally believable, the short comings were what they were but you could also see them as the uncertainty in writing alternate history. When I first heard about it and some of its plotline, I though hey cool America is part of the Central Powers instead of the Entente and the Central Powers win ww1, maybe things would turn out different like no holocaust. Then came the Settling Accounts series and the Confederate holocaust putting the timeline in a kinda unsavory dilemma if you think about it, if the Entente had won ww1 in that timeline, then there would be nazis and the horrible stuff they did, if the central powers won like they did then the Confederates take the place of the Germans. While Turtledove might have made the parallels between our timeline and the sv timeline for the sake of burnout, it would also be reasonable to say that its a representation of how uncertain history can be. For instance, you stated the possibility of a Confederate soldier stumbling upon Lee's note was ungodly likely yet the fact it was found by Union forces is a major reason why our timeline looks like the one we know. The southern holocaust and multiple generations of war would have had a major effect on the American mind and society with post war absurdism and whatnot extremely likely to shift the culture of the United States in a direction different than in our timeline. If the latter series was more realistic, then Featherston would've taken into account the fact that the black population accounted for around a third of the Confederacy so instead of doing a strait up genocide, he might have pogromed them within an inch of their lives making their lives miserable like in The Witcher between the elves and Temeria. Damn I wrote a lot
Celebrating victories gives the impression to it's people of invulnerability, as an Australian we have two very important days, one a celebration of victory, and the most important one a remembrance of defeat. 11th day of the 11th month on the 11th hour we pause and remembrance of the signing of the treaty of Versailles on the 28th June 1919 (granted in hindsight we are essentially celebrating the direct cause of WW2 but 💁♂️) 25th April of every year ANZAC day "Australian and New Zealand Army Corps", we arise before the sun, we stand in solidarity with our closest ally in history New Zealand (we are essentially one fighting force and would follow each other) we remember the disastrous landings on Gallipoli on the 25th April 1915, and the withdrawal using immense ingenuity to convince the Turkish forces we were still fighting. Now this day has been greatly expanded, the biggest ceremony is held on the Gallipoli shores themselves alongside those who bested us, the Turkish, both sides forged in that one moment in time. In Australia, and New Zealand it is also a day of respect of current member of the military, knowing what they are expected to live upto in the ANZAC legend. It is also a day in which Turkey (the people and land they defended so heroically) celebrate much in the same way the ANZACS do. It is also a celebration in France and Belgium two countries the ANZACS have a deep history in. Essentially ANZAC day is a reminder of the loss of life, the dangers and sacrifice, the personal struggles against all odds and knowing when to say "enough is enough". It's also a day to reminisce on the successes, in history, a day to celebrate those who serve, and remember that despite technology changing, munitions more dangerous, war never changes. I guess I'm saying Australia and New Zealand's greatest day of celebration and remembrance is based on a loss in conflict, reflecting on the sacrifice, understanding the terrors, and celebrating and buying a beer for those who uphold the ANZAC value today. Also we use this day to remember WW2 and the personnel that went through that, okay it's a complicated holiday but the Gallipoli one is the primary one. Sorry for the long message, I just wanted to let it be clear any country can celebrate a loss as a positive, remembering those who died, those who survived and that their names shall never be forgotten and Lest We Forget.
@@cam4636 memorial was actually in remembrance off the battle of Gettysburg during ww1 but has been expanded to all fallen service members through out our nations history. Sadly, on much of the civilian population, the message of the holiday is lost.
I like your work but I find your shitting on the middle class a bit tactless. It isnt the Middle Class boosting a resurgence in the Far Right, it's the Working Class. The Middle Class championed the enlightenment, democracy and equality and are horrified right now as the far right and far left are tearing it apart, creating divisions where actions were being taken to eliminate them. The recent surges in the far right are the working class feeling oppressed and turning that blame on minorities. They want 'our people's put first which ignores a lot of the facts on the ground, such as a more balanced and fairer system would raise ALL boats. It's not their fault of course, the massive rises in cost of living and stagnant wages have hit the Working Class hardest, but they have been courted by the far right offering easy solutions. The left needs to develop a new plan to emphasize less on gesture politics and make clear plans how the average Working Class man or woman can benefit. This also applies to the UK and much of the Anglosphere too. Otherwise the Overton window will keep sliding right which will be fine for those with inherited wealth but not good for those without. Compare the recent election exit polls based on education and income. The Middle Class went overwhelmingly for Hillary and Biden. The Working Class has been sliding more and more to the right and for Trumpian politicians. Obviously the wealthy will always vote Republican for lower taxes. Unless the left can become competitive with workers again the squeezed Middle isnt enough to form a working government. Covid was the wildcard for 2020 otherwise Trump would have won. By 2024 the Covid novelty will have worn off and I suspect unless something changes Trump will be President in 2024. So yes. Just my thoughts on your accusations of the Middle Class causing the problems of increased Far Right support.
I disagree with this moral relativism we always do nowadays you do this here too at around 6:50 its not a bad thing that the us would allow the csa to "peacefully" own slaves
I think this is a superb analysis of Southern Victory, and I'd like to add that thematically it does have an ounce of optimism since slavery and later fascism ultimately do get defeated anyways
“History is not a line, it’s a circle”. Seeing how the border patrol is treating the Haitians right now, i dont know how anyone could argue with your statement
I read this series in high school, and I loved it, still do. The incredibly dark tone and uncertain future it ends on is still compelling to me to this very day.
So while there is some obvious Anarchist Bias in your Analysis, most of the Things you mentioned are what makes this series peak ah and peak turtledove, contributing to the letdown that was the war that came early and the hot war. Cudos from europe, mate
I was sort of interested in the author many years ago. Alternate history has interested me ever since I played C&C Red Alert as a young person. But I never got around to it. As a kid you don't really think about the authors agenda or whatever, you just look at the book and think the premise sounds cool. That also happens as an adult.
You had me with black socialists. In real life it is one of the big what ifs for me, what if the Alabama black communists rose to power in the 1930s. I'll check out at least the first book.
literally how would that happen? everyone would just converge around them to crush them. in the tiny chance that they do somehow survive its under an ultra-authoritarian strongman who makes things even worse for the population than the alternative.
I disagree with you thinking about a hostile neighbor. US has had hostile neighbors (for actually majority of it history). The US just then proceed to invade and successful conquer them. We live in the exception where we have ride North America of hostile powers and great relationships with Canada and Mexico. All the way up to 1950s us had horrible relationships with Mexico ( which didnt improve til the last of revolutionary mexican leaders finally died off). Majority of US and Canadian history has been confrontational. It was not til basically the first WW1 that the US seriously stop giving up claims to liberating Canada from the British yoke and finishing a the goal of the American revolution of pushing the brits off the North American landmass. Canada was the only country that was able to successfully stop American expansion, as the Mexicans, Spanish, French, British, Comaches, Lakota, and numerous other Indian tribes can contest.
he was more talking about a strong revival power on the continent Mexico and Canada were rivals and did prevent American expansion in the pass but but they weren't strong and often needed support from much stronger nations
@@lt4109 not true. During the Mexican American war, Mexico was the dominate power. They were has the best European advisors and were outfitted with the latest in military technology. When we invaded Mexico, the joke in Europe was that this will be the last you hear of the US army.
Werid, i came up with my own "If the South won the civil war" story and concluded the very opposite, The United States is so overpowered even without the southern thrid of it that it would still be a superpower that would be nigh unconquerable without the CSA being involved and even they don't affect U.S politics that much in the long term and the country is capable of fighting even a losing conflict on the far side of the globe without much domestic repercussions for it's civilian population. Even the Vietnam war & the war on terror were mostly fought during eras of general prosperity.
i'm sorry, but israel-palestine is really not a good example of a cycle of violence for which both parties are culpable. one side is an apartheid state, and a nuclear power with a modern army, advanced weaponry, and a state of the art anti-aircraft defense system, ignore the fact that it is back by the world's biggest superpower. the other is, at best, a group of disorganized partisans with surplus equipment that was modern decades ago.
James Tullos I usually very appreciate your videos but I must pick this bone, I think it is grossly misrepresentative to portray the Israeli occupation of Palestine as a "cycle of violence where both sides are to blame", this is a blatant example of an oppressor and their oppressed, and I am disappointed that you take such an apathetic view on this issue.
"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of America"
YES. I'm going to remember that quote forever.
I remember a very similar quote about capitalism that has always stuck with me.
@@xionkuriyama5697 goddam commies
@@xionkuriyama5697 Same here.
@@xionkuriyama5697 That's because it's taken from the book "Capitalist Realism", only replacing "Capitalism" with "America".
Nah man I'm hoping America finally balkanizes themselves. The general region of California would probably be its own country, as would Texas. New York could be a city-state. The mid-west or fly-over area would end up as one or several large, but impoverished countries, considered ass-backwards religious hicks by people in the coastal countries. Maybe Mexico and Canada can snag up some ground, too, or simply annex entire states when there's no one stopping them.
And in true Balkan fashion, all of these people who used to live in the same country will hate each other's guts based on ethnolingual, religious and historical grievances, too busy fighting each other to destabilize the Middle East.
I’m glad you talked about this series. From afar, it looks like some weird racist wannabe LARPing in the form of novels. It’s clearly much deeper than that, and it deserves much more credit.
I loved these books in highschool. The level of detail that was put into writing Abe Lincoln's speeches as a socialist party leader was amazing
@@jordank5328 Abe Lincoln leads the socialist party? Well now I have to read these books.
For some reason your pfp seems super familiar Wyatt... I wonder if I've seen you comment on other stuff before...
Now I'm wondering how Turtledove knew so much about what Mark Twain was packing downstairs. Thanks James.
I'm guessing Turtledove just took some artistic liberties with that; though it is fun to imagine.
@@alfiejob6546 I hope so.
There were a few things about this series that I appreciate because I never thought about them before. The native American tribes are better off, as they can pick a side & be used as proxies to raid the other side, so it's to each countries' benefit to tolerate & even encourage their autonomy. I also like how labor unions fought an uphill battle in the USA until the war started, then it was to the companies' interest to settle as the federal government would pay for industries to convert & increase output adap.
this union thing happened here in Brazil
When I was a kid and pick fights with my brother. My father told me "Violence is the last refuge for the unimaginative."
"didn't nationalise industry or lynch landlords. Pity."
"Whichever quagmire we get pulled into next. Where will it be? Iran? China? Venezuela? Cuba? Guess we'll find out in the next ten years."
Tullos are his hilarious best.
Haha I was hoping you’d get to this.
Nice to see you here, Tigerstar.
Huh, didn't expect to see Tigerstar on my favorite semi obscure book reviewing channel
0:00 "I'm willing to bet a lot of you haven't heard of this series. And those of you who have probably don't have many friends."
Damn
I felt it too.
not sure why people are up-voting that comment, seeing as it blatantly mis-quotes what was said...
@@swimrunmatt I know but it's kinda funny to think about it that way.
I have some Harry Turtledove books my friend gave me. He said they're great, but I feel a little uncomfortable carrying around books with swastikas and confederate flags. I doubt many people would assume great things about me...... I'll read them privately
Now that you point that, I think I'll do the same. Damn...
if you have another book of a similar size, you could borrow its dust jacket
You read a book then rasists are the bad peopel, and hanged in the end. So do not give a crap what other peopel think.
I do like this alternative book far more than .....other books, because they don't suger coat history and the opposition doesn't win via magic or bless with knowledge by the eldrich gods
It also opens up actual critism of real historical politics rather than just being, "wouldn't it be cool if"
Also, no inter dimensional travel (cough cough).
I'm sure on the "not sugar coating history" part, because there are writers who use AH as a way to justify their personal views or just blatent nationalist wish fulfillment.
There are two examples I can think of: one is Star and Stripes forever --- Which is basically just 'Murica --- and an 9/11 alternate history where the US *NUKES* the city Mecca, resulting causes every Muslim in the Middle East to give up their faith.
I've read it, and it's a really interesting concept with writing that doesn't really stand up to it
I found many thoughts and cliches were repeated ad nauseum by multiple characters, making the story feel padded out.
That statement describes a huge portion of science fiction very well
Ain't that the truth. The same can also be said for a lot of science fiction/speculative fiction, because the people with cool ideas aren't neccesarily great writers (and vice versa).
Turtledove has so many great ideas for overall plots, and I love how he’s not shy about exploring Jewish identity in fiction (I’ve never seen a mainstream author as proudly and openly Jewish as him) but whew, his writing can draaaaaaaaaag. James Tullos said it right when he said the characters weren’t so much characters as lenses through which society is examined. Which is cool, but not super fun to read lol
Turtledove trying not to throw in 3 unnecessary sex scenes in every book
12:03
"Where will it be? North Korea? Iran? Anything's possible with Commander Kookoo Bananas in charge." - Homer Simpson
james hit us with them most based takes today and I'm here for it
I think you summarized the theme of the series excellently given what I know and recall of the context of the series and of Turtledove himself. A shame that some people don’t share his anti-fascist/monarchist views given the proven harm they’ve done. Regardless, I think you gave a good explanation on your takeaway and hope to see more from you in the future
Ppl that actually think "american exceptionalism " is a thing need to be told to look up US concentration camps during WW2.
You just reminded me that in the event of a war with the USSR, my own cute little social democracy had the official policy to round up all known members of the Communist Party and their sympathisants (including hundreds of thousands of union workers) and put them in concentration camps.
Did I mention that many members of the Communist Party had fought against the nazis during World War Two?
the thing that actually makes American history exceptional and what largely caused it to become a global hegemon in our time is how completely spared the land itself was by WWII. America got all the spoils of victory, but none of the costs. There was no fighting or invasions on the continent, and even its oppressive war crimes (the internment camps) ended with no deliberate deaths and even financial reparations. compare that to what Czechs, Poles, and Russians did to German minorities in their countries after the war in retaliation and you'll learn just how lucky the US was, from its state power elites to even its minorities.
The American camps were internment camps. More people came out of the camps then went in. They were not the death camps of Nazi German, the Gulags of Soviet Russia, or the disastrous Concentration Camps the British used on the Boars in South Africa. Locking up people because of nationality/ethnicity is disgraceful but to compare the American Camps to the Nazi’s is in no way s one on one comparison.
If you want a good book of alternative history, read "The Island of Crimea"
by Vasily Aksyonov. Civil war mentioned as well, but Russian one, which is already makes it 1000 times more interesting
Intresting.
Damn, you made me want to read this! I agree that a lot of alternate history I've read didn't go that far. So it would be interesting to dive into Turtledove's work. I wish I could find a book like that about French history, since it's my country! Thanks for the video!
"After the civil war the CSA industrialized..."
**Alright Imma Let You Finish But...**
But what? The CSA started to industrialize during the war it makes sense that would have continuned if they had won. To fight a war you need an army and stuff to equip them with.
Yea, during the war the CSA had quite a large industrial base in Alabama and Georgia around Birmingham and Atlanta.
Nothing on the Union’s level… But, it was large enough to pump out quite a bit of ironclads, guns, artillery, etc…
They were still mostly agricultural/slave based but were evolving during the war.
The CSA can go kick rocks along with anyone who supports them tho. (Not saying you guys do… Just throwing this out for the “Muh CSA” folks) 😎😎😎
Bottom line: "If the Confederacy won, the world would just be worse than our own"
the best thing about the series is that it doesn't go full dystopian like with other alternative histories books it shows you that earth is far worse off but not completely hopeless people are still going about there lives despite being in a worse situation
Al menos hay esperanza saludos desde México
12:01 We didn't lose the war of 1812 it was tie between the US and Britain. The only real victor was Canada.
>America lost the war of 1812 and Iraq
I'm sorry huh? 🤔🤔🤔
those can be said to be draws / stalemates. the definitive losses are Vietnam and Afghanistan.
@@demilembias2527 Vietnam and Afghanistan aren’t defensive losses either. Vietnam l, the north actually signed a peace agreement that held for two years until Nixon got in trouble with watergate. Afghanistan was the ineptitude of the American public and our politicians to stomach a long term conflict. Militarily, the US won uncontestedly. I remember thinking of it as a game of whack a mole watching the taliban come out of the mountains of Pakistan and cross into the border before raining heavy fire down on them and they scurry back across the border were we couldn’t engage.
I've thought about re-reading this series, or the WorldWar/Colonization series, but I just can't bear to face the constant repetition. Turtledove writes as if his readers have the memories of goldfish. I wish there were abridged versions where I didn't have to read the same character traits exposited over and over again every 50-100 pages.
Same, I could do without Sam Carlsten’s zinc oxide
@@Aurelian369_that thrilling plot ends in the best twist of all time. He gets skin cancer, wow what a shock.
The most unrealistic part is that even the Union’s Overton Window would ever be and remain sufficiently left enough to allow a Socialist party to gain sufficient influence. Even the US Labour movement only took a brief time to fall to classic American individualism and atomisation. Not that the same hasn’t happened everywhere, but the US’s famous enthusiasm for refusing to engage in anything that smells like collectivism makes it especially notable.
Without the South the US would lean quite a bit more to the left. Maybe not enough for a socialist party to be genuinely powerful. In 1914 only a couple of countries had a strong left wing. But it would certainly be less rightwing. So far fewer americans ranting about 'America is a christian nation' or 'gun rights are inviolable'.
The US labor movements that were hunted down and killed by the US army and privately-owned militaries belonging to industrialists? Not a natural death, dear
I don´t think so. One of the big points that due to the US loosing 2 wars in humiliating fashion and starts copy the German Empire and not just in a military aspect the anti collectivism spirits weakens drastically.
Like a lot of people like to think that Mexico and Central America would have been easy to conquer, but like Mexico was able to expel William Walker over ten times and the only time Walker succeeded in conquering a country, he was expelled from Central America through a coalition of Central American nations and the UK .
Lions blood is an interesting alternative history book by Stephen Barnes
Love this series
Somewhat ironically the only other franchise I can think of where America gets its shit pushed in... is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. The first game revolves around the Americans getting their army nuked and the world having to be saved by the Brits (lol). And then the second game has the US somehow get Red Dawned by modern Russia (again lol) while their Nato allies get nuked into oblivion.
What are your thoughts on Guns of the South? It struck me as a bit of a white-washing of Robert E. Lee's views on slavery and the black population of the Confederacy, although it did have a lot of interesting ideas.
Also yes, after reading World War, Harry Turtledove loves his weird and awkward sex scenes
Funny enough just finished reading How Few Remain.
You should totally do a video on The Turner Diaries since you're covering this sketchy stuff.
@North Sea Pirate There's way more differences than just that. I'd still like to see James do a video on that book so he can rip it to shreds and make fun of it.
Harry Turtledove is pretty neat
i do feel bad for him, because while he is great at creating detailed and good alternative history worlds, he is pretty terrible at writing characters.
Griffin Hunter Kevin J Anderson has the same problem.
But what a last name
@@griffinhunter3206 Hey, what's so bad about a character who constantly tells us that he has sensitive skin, and that he has to put on zinc oxide at all times? This is peak storytelling I'll have you know.
I find your characterization of both sides being culpable in various conflicts, such as israel and palestine to be victim-blaming, the people of palestine are a colonized people who are victims of ethnic cleansing, they shouldn’t have to “give anything up” to get peace, their fight against oppression can’t be equivocated to the violence of their oppressors
So glad to see other ppl showing solidarity for Palestine
There cannot be peace between two peoples when they are engaged in a colonial relation. Anymore than there can be peace between classes engaged in an exploitative relation.
Demanding peace under such conditions is tantamount to supporting the colonial regime; hopelessly naive and willfully ignorant at best, or grossly reactionary at worst
Decolonization, like Class Struggle, is violent by necessity
Yeah, it's a seriously spineless stance to take.
@@bizkit8538 nope Israel has the right to defend itself against attack. Palestinians don't have the right to attack unarmed people. Just like Israel doesn't have that right either.
@@woobiefuntime Reward for the most ignorant take on the Palestine-Israel conflict goes to...
@@cam4636 how so when all i said is peace .
Finally. A series that demonstrates that USA ain't the center of the universe.
12:46 oh boy then do I have a recommendation for you. Try out the fever king, the US is overthrown and split into two different countries, and that gets seen as a mostly good thing
'Needs more landlord lynching' - JT.
wow I literally just read How Few Remain, spooky coincidence
you read mark fisher?
I don't like how does south industrialized despite being a encomnomy that isn't like the north
yeah, there would be no need with a slave based economy
@@Merrick Well, if a victorious south did industrialise after the civil war, it wouldn't be wild to assume that they'd use slaves as their workforce; like what Atun Shei said in one of his Checkmate, Lincolnites videos: a slave-based economy and an industrial one aren't necessarily incompatible.
In the series, the South begrudgingly "freed" their slaves through "manumission" because Britain and France told them so lest they had to stand against the US alone during the Mexican War. It's shown in the American Front that the Southern factories are extremely unsafe and are staffed by both poor whites, and blacks who are unable to have their own surname.
I read the series, though I enjoyed it and enjoy much of Turtledove's work, I do acknowledge the many flaws.
@@alfiejob6546 the south doesn't have the capital to industrialize like the USA since it mostly spent on slavery
@@taptiotrevizo9415 I don't dispute that for a second; I was just saying that if (and that's a big "if") the Confederacy were to industrialise, it wouldn't mean they would no longer have slaves.
Konrad Adeneur: Auf dem Amerikanischen Kontinent ist ein Eiserner Vorhang gefallen.
Beware war of 1812 arguments are coming
Sort of like The Man in the High Tower.
now do the one where the roman empire survives into the 21st century
My only problem with it is that USA didn't get anexed CSA during WW1
They spell it out in the book, CAS have not the military might to occupy USA, and it quite hard to demand anything then you are being overrun by US, and only "saved" by a German victory in Europa.
@@kirgan1000 Sorry meant it the other way around
the USA did not annex CSA
You should read my material, The Valyrian Dragons, The Dragon of Krypton and The Azure Flame, is basically what you are describing here, not matter if a galactic conflict or a local conflict in a planet, even if they come victorious, it always with a cost, with half a city in flames or destroyed, or in my first story, my main character lose 80% of his army and barely come out alive, sure, that really killed his arrogance, but left him with mental scars and PSTD, it began as experiment if I could write again, and now is very popular in Deviant Art, sure, I have ups and downs, I not have a huge ego to admit that some arcs were as popular as hoped to be, but people really seems to like it, if you would read it, keep in mind that my early chapters are crap, because I didn't have a proper translator and editor.
When advertising your own books it's a good idea to reread the copy you are presenting and edit it so it is grammatically correct. Your entire paragraph is one incorrect sentence. Not something you want when you're promoting works that are made up entirely of prose.
@@DrawbackDrawback Actually I more interested in his opinion than actually promoting my work, my work is already popular in Deviant Art, even with the ups and downs, I only need now a editorial willingly to publish my material, but yeah, my early chapter had very poor grammar, because very poor translator and worse edition, but the originals are well, because English in not my mother language, I only publish in English because it attracts the most amount of readers.
@@TheKeyser94 Fair enough. But that's my point. You are advertising the novels to him. He may read your advertising copy and pass on reading the novels because of the first impression it provides.
@@DrawbackDrawback They are hardly novels, they aren't publish on paper, I am at the state of the Metro 2033 author was, just chapters in the internet, only a huge amount of chapters, hell, I didn't even know that would be successful, this was nothing more than a experiment after ten years of writing block, I wanted to write something that George RR Martin didn't have the balls to do so, and when he did was in a history book format. I would like his opinion that all.
I do agree that the whole reason the USA grew so big, is because they had no enemies around, so they could build an industrial base on peace, and export the war to other places
The moment the war happens in american soil, that industrial growth stops, and they lose the advantage of overwhelming military reserves
Thats why 9/11 was such a big deal, because it was the first time the american citizens suffered a bombing in civilian areas, even while they do that to other countries all the time
For example, the idea that they could simply "buy" mexican states is stupid, the times when it "happened" was because the mexican government welcomed USA migrants so they could help them develop the northern states, then once the muricans grew numerous enough they "declared independence" and were backed by the USA's military power
Once there is a hostile neighbor, it becomes impossible to amass such military reserves, and the whole reason the USA was so important during WW2 was because they could produce resources at grand scale
The USA's power is production, not military, and the reason of their decline is the constant outsourcing of production industries to cheaper countries
On that area, it is true that without the USA the world would be less developed, because they were an important focus of world wide production that allowed poorer countries to export raw materials and import industrialized goods, setting up their own industrial foundation
The reason the military has so much praise in the USA, is because they allow them to keep their hold on other countries' resources, but the focus shifted from praising industrialization to praising the military that guards the industrialization
14:30 pretty sure that’s not how we got the electoral college, even though it is why some people want to keep it
David and Dan wanted to do something like this.
I heard of it cuz i watched ur world building video :)))
Being fair to Wolfenstein, his mother is also Jewish and his father is abusive and he spent his entire childhood with his father holding his mother and him effectively captive, threatening to give her to the Nazis to be killed often.
Yo I can't wait for you to do a crossover with Talkernate History
While the series is generally believable, the short comings were what they were but you could also see them as the uncertainty in writing alternate history. When I first heard about it and some of its plotline, I though hey cool America is part of the Central Powers instead of the Entente and the Central Powers win ww1, maybe things would turn out different like no holocaust. Then came the Settling Accounts series and the Confederate holocaust putting the timeline in a kinda unsavory dilemma if you think about it, if the Entente had won ww1 in that timeline, then there would be nazis and the horrible stuff they did, if the central powers won like they did then the Confederates take the place of the Germans. While Turtledove might have made the parallels between our timeline and the sv timeline for the sake of burnout, it would also be reasonable to say that its a representation of how uncertain history can be. For instance, you stated the possibility of a Confederate soldier stumbling upon Lee's note was ungodly likely yet the fact it was found by Union forces is a major reason why our timeline looks like the one we know. The southern holocaust and multiple generations of war would have had a major effect on the American mind and society with post war absurdism and whatnot extremely likely to shift the culture of the United States in a direction different than in our timeline. If the latter series was more realistic, then Featherston would've taken into account the fact that the black population accounted for around a third of the Confederacy so instead of doing a strait up genocide, he might have pogromed them within an inch of their lives making their lives miserable like in The Witcher between the elves and Temeria. Damn I wrote a lot
12:47 bro is that a Mark Fisher reference?
Cool video I am unemployed
Send me all your money and I'll give you a job
I kinda miss the introduction song.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE YES YES PLEASE GIVE ME THIS GIVE ME THIS GIVE ME THIS!!!!
The HOI4 mod is pretty good
Read it. Nice books.
Celebrating victories gives the impression to it's people of invulnerability, as an Australian we have two very important days, one a celebration of victory, and the most important one a remembrance of defeat.
11th day of the 11th month on the 11th hour we pause and remembrance of the signing of the treaty of Versailles on the 28th June 1919 (granted in hindsight we are essentially celebrating the direct cause of WW2 but 💁♂️)
25th April of every year ANZAC day "Australian and New Zealand Army Corps", we arise before the sun, we stand in solidarity with our closest ally in history New Zealand (we are essentially one fighting force and would follow each other) we remember the disastrous landings on Gallipoli on the 25th April 1915, and the withdrawal using immense ingenuity to convince the Turkish forces we were still fighting. Now this day has been greatly expanded, the biggest ceremony is held on the Gallipoli shores themselves alongside those who bested us, the Turkish, both sides forged in that one moment in time.
In Australia, and New Zealand it is also a day of respect of current member of the military, knowing what they are expected to live upto in the ANZAC legend.
It is also a day in which Turkey (the people and land they defended so heroically) celebrate much in the same way the ANZACS do.
It is also a celebration in France and Belgium two countries the ANZACS have a deep history in.
Essentially ANZAC day is a reminder of the loss of life, the dangers and sacrifice, the personal struggles against all odds and knowing when to say "enough is enough". It's also a day to reminisce on the successes, in history, a day to celebrate those who serve, and remember that despite technology changing, munitions more dangerous, war never changes.
I guess I'm saying Australia and New Zealand's greatest day of celebration and remembrance is based on a loss in conflict, reflecting on the sacrifice, understanding the terrors, and celebrating and buying a beer for those who uphold the ANZAC value today. Also we use this day to remember WW2 and the personnel that went through that, okay it's a complicated holiday but the Gallipoli one is the primary one.
Sorry for the long message, I just wanted to let it be clear any country can celebrate a loss as a positive, remembering those who died, those who survived and that their names shall never be forgotten and Lest We Forget.
The US has a Memorial Day in remembrance of WWI. They use it to open the public swimming pools and hold barbeques
@@cam4636 memorial was actually in remembrance off the battle of Gettysburg during ww1 but has been expanded to all fallen service members through out our nations history. Sadly, on much of the civilian population, the message of the holiday is lost.
How the fuck could you say the best critique of American exceptionalism is this, Jesus Christ...
Ah, yes. The war of sus...
for the algorithm
Someone played too much HOI4
I like your work but I find your shitting on the middle class a bit tactless. It isnt the Middle Class boosting a resurgence in the Far Right, it's the Working Class.
The Middle Class championed the enlightenment, democracy and equality and are horrified right now as the far right and far left are tearing it apart, creating divisions where actions were being taken to eliminate them.
The recent surges in the far right are the working class feeling oppressed and turning that blame on minorities. They want 'our people's put first which ignores a lot of the facts on the ground, such as a more balanced and fairer system would raise ALL boats. It's not their fault of course, the massive rises in cost of living and stagnant wages have hit the Working Class hardest, but they have been courted by the far right offering easy solutions. The left needs to develop a new plan to emphasize less on gesture politics and make clear plans how the average Working Class man or woman can benefit. This also applies to the UK and much of the Anglosphere too. Otherwise the Overton window will keep sliding right which will be fine for those with inherited wealth but not good for those without.
Compare the recent election exit polls based on education and income. The Middle Class went overwhelmingly for Hillary and Biden. The Working Class has been sliding more and more to the right and for Trumpian politicians. Obviously the wealthy will always vote Republican for lower taxes. Unless the left can become competitive with workers again the squeezed Middle isnt enough to form a working government. Covid was the wildcard for 2020 otherwise Trump would have won. By 2024 the Covid novelty will have worn off and I suspect unless something changes Trump will be President in 2024.
So yes. Just my thoughts on your accusations of the Middle Class causing the problems of increased Far Right support.
Don't ignore the possibility of WW3 breaking out before 2025.
This feels like a nice friendly reminder that no matter which way, humanity sucks & we deserve to go like the dinos.
Are you seriously suggesting Palestine has literally any fault in the matter??
Well shooting rockets, massacring sports teams and all that. I wouldn´t call them completly innocent bystanders.
I disagree with this moral relativism we always do nowadays you do this here too at around 6:50 its not a bad thing that the us would allow the csa to "peacefully" own slaves
It is in fact a bad thing to keep human beings from having human rights, actually.
I think this is a superb analysis of Southern Victory, and I'd like to add that thematically it does have an ounce of optimism since slavery and later fascism ultimately do get defeated anyways
Yo, what a coincidence. I got a copy of How Few Remain as a gift last Christmas. Maybe I'll get around to reading that sometime...
What’s your pfp
“History is not a line, it’s a circle”. Seeing how the border patrol is treating the Haitians right now, i dont know how anyone could argue with your statement
I mean if you zoom in enough of a circle, it's a line.
I get what your saying but History isn't a circle either
I would argue its a spiral, that repeating pattern but varying a bit.
More like a Wheel, if you know what I mean.
Think we're all missing something. What if time is 3D, like an oblate spheroid or something.
I read this series in high school, and I loved it, still do. The incredibly dark tone and uncertain future it ends on is still compelling to me to this very day.
Hey, UA-cam? Maybe not the best video to serve a Lockheed Martin midroll ad during 😂
Either way, the South loses.
And that's a good thing.
So while there is some obvious Anarchist Bias in your Analysis, most of the Things you mentioned are what makes this series peak ah and peak turtledove, contributing to the letdown that was the war that came early and the hot war.
Cudos from europe, mate
Gonna pick up these books just to read about Mark Twains big dong
Okay wolfenstein isnt a great example, hes a B.J. Blaskowitz is a jew.
I was sort of interested in the author many years ago.
Alternate history has interested me ever since I played C&C Red Alert as a young person.
But I never got around to it. As a kid you don't really think about the authors agenda or whatever, you just look at the book and think the premise sounds cool. That also happens as an adult.
You had me with black socialists. In real life it is one of the big what ifs for me, what if the Alabama black communists rose to power in the 1930s. I'll check out at least the first book.
literally how would that happen? everyone would just converge around them to crush them. in the tiny chance that they do somehow survive its under an ultra-authoritarian strongman who makes things even worse for the population than the alternative.
@@demilembias2527 yeah but what if
I believe Canada would become Timeline-191's equivalent of Ukraine.
Please do a video on Monsieur Z. He's got a lot of ... interesting material
I disagree with you thinking about a hostile neighbor. US has had hostile neighbors (for actually majority of it history). The US just then proceed to invade and successful conquer them. We live in the exception where we have ride North America of hostile powers and great relationships with Canada and Mexico. All the way up to 1950s us had horrible relationships with Mexico ( which didnt improve til the last of revolutionary mexican leaders finally died off). Majority of US and Canadian history has been confrontational. It was not til basically the first WW1 that the US seriously stop giving up claims to liberating Canada from the British yoke and finishing a the goal of the American revolution of pushing the brits off the North American landmass. Canada was the only country that was able to successfully stop American expansion, as the Mexicans, Spanish, French, British, Comaches, Lakota, and numerous other Indian tribes can contest.
he was more talking about a strong revival power on the continent Mexico and Canada were rivals and did prevent American expansion in the pass but but they weren't strong and often needed support from much stronger nations
@@lt4109 not true. During the Mexican American war, Mexico was the dominate power. They were has the best European advisors and were outfitted with the latest in military technology. When we invaded Mexico, the joke in Europe was that this will be the last you hear of the US army.
Oh wait, I thought this is the one where the CSA gets AK-47s
Did you know Sam Carston easily sun sunburns
10:56 In the background, a UFO vaporizes the statue of liberty.
The wolfenstein 2 thing is kinda cheap, imo. BJ's circumstances go way beyond "having a black friend as a kid".
Cool video. Keep up good work😆👍
His name is Harry Turtledove? Really? I'm assuming it's a penname...and not a good one.
A pen name? For a writer? What will they think of next?
Nope, Harry Turtledove is his birth name.
really my guy Israel and Palestine that's genuinely one the worst examples you could have chosen
Another book that reminds me of this is after the revolution by Robert Evans
Italy is a democracy ⭐ we have no no monarch ahaha
Werid, i came up with my own "If the South won the civil war" story and concluded the very opposite, The United States is so overpowered even without the southern thrid of it that it would still be a superpower that would be nigh unconquerable without the CSA being involved and even they don't affect U.S politics that much in the long term and the country is capable of fighting even a losing conflict on the far side of the globe without much domestic repercussions for it's civilian population. Even the Vietnam war & the war on terror were mostly fought during eras of general prosperity.
Well, stories with the same premise can deviate into completely different things.
Commenting to help you in the algorithm
Pity indeed
Very nice video, James! I truly enjoyed
Your voice sounds kinda odd here. Did you get a cold while making this?
He recently had jaw surgery. I guess he's learning to talk again.
i'm sorry, but israel-palestine is really not a good example of a cycle of violence for which both parties are culpable. one side is an apartheid state, and a nuclear power with a modern army, advanced weaponry, and a state of the art anti-aircraft defense system, ignore the fact that it is back by the world's biggest superpower. the other is, at best, a group of disorganized partisans with surplus equipment that was modern decades ago.
Sure but the cycle of violence does not carr about the size of violence it only cares about the existence of violence.
James Tullos I usually very appreciate your videos but I must pick this bone, I think it is grossly misrepresentative to portray the Israeli occupation of Palestine as a "cycle of violence where both sides are to blame", this is a blatant example of an oppressor and their oppressed, and I am disappointed that you take such an apathetic view on this issue.
Please explain
@@MsMvsc read an article
@@archibaldthejester42069
helpful
A 16 minutes video on a series with 11 books isn't a deep dive
(Sort of)