Linguist postgrad here. This is genuinely one of the reasons why I love teaching the International Phonetic Alphabet because it was invented for an accurate description of a language’s phonemes, tones, vowels, etc.
Really interesting 👍. May I ask how you would write Tom and Gaeng/Kaeng in IPA showing the tone, vowel and consonants? Retired language teacher here in France. I taught English (mother-tongue) with CELTA, French, German and Arabic (final two BA degree and in-country work) taught at various levels at an adult education institute, although I only used IPA for myself as the teaching was not higher education. I've always wondered how IPA would be applied to tonal languages 😊.
don't wanna be bothering here as a comment but thai is not 100% phonetic btw, cluster consonants is small exception plus some pali/sanskript words have inherent a/o vowels that you won't know until someone guides you, the simplest I can give is ถนน plus some months are really hard if you are learning to read them as a beginner but you get used to it
@@mr_wormhole +1 but that's not IPA 👍. Are you saying that the INTERNATIONAL PHONETIC ALPHABET (IPA) is not applicable to Thai? Is it not applicable to any other languages? When I first went to school in England in 1966, I was taught ITA, even though I could already read. I cook a great Pad Kaprao btw. 🤣❤️
@@andrewrobinson2565 yea it will never be like spanish but script wise it is more consistent than arabic or chinese, or I can easily say it is very close to korean script phonetics(hangul is extra ordinary in terms of reading) but what makes thai extremely easy is its grammar at the expense of some hard to read ancient words and a bit of tone juggling(tones are way easier than chinese due to long sounds)
@@andrewrobinson2565 it is more of IPA only exists for latin people like italian / spanish etc, phonetic languages don't need to be internationally phonetic in latin, latin is just 1 way of writing, thai is phonetic in its script, latin script doesn't resemble all the sounds a language can make. Korean for example is extremely genius in this topic or quranic arabic also. Every vowel or consonant laid out perfectly so the reader can read the same for centuries
Yeah, it’s quite frustrating. Luckily if you’re finding Thai difficult, you can always go get some Szechuan/Sichuan food, order some Kung Pow/Gongbao Chicken and wash it down with an ice cold Tsingtao/Qingdao beer. Unfortunately we’d have to go to a different restaurant for Peking/Beijing duck though. Or, alternatively, we could go grab some Canton/Guangzhou/Gwongzau food I guess?
As a Chinese American who abhors Wade-Giles romanization and other wild romanization schemes, this video only further solidifies that Pailin is my long lost sister. The struggle to romanize Thai for SEO seems 100x harder, so props to you! Side note, I'm super excited for when you finally hit 2M subs!
I was about to make a similar comment re Wade-GIles vs pinyin. There's also a problem with tonal in that there's 6 (or 9) tones for cantonese vs 4 tones for mandarin. More explained by Wikipedia Tone Number en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_number. In some other languages they use accents or umlats etc to the character.
Lao woman from Chiangmai here. I’ve had someone in America try to explain to me that pad ka pao, holy basil stir fry, means stir fry PURSE… and I had to explain to them that they’re confusing gapao (purse) with ka pao (holy basil). Of course, they still didn’t believe me lol, smh
I love it when Pai comes out with a linguistic video. It’s not often so it makes it all the more valuable for me. Thank you for this fascinating content.
One thing that is important to add here: This is how you transliterate from Thai-script into Latin script. Latin scripted is used to write English, but not exclusively. Most languages spoken in the western world utilize Latin Script, so this is not really done with any particular regard for English specifically. The fact that is read by English speakers as the dental fricative has little relevance. The is needed to denote aspiration, which is phonemic in Thai, and therefore an important distinction within the language. Most other European languages that utilize latin script, do not utilize to denote a dental fricative, so this works, but gives a little quirk in English spelling.
Thanks for this remark. The "H" addition is indeed essential for the non-English speaking world. Aspriated or not aspirated. There is a huge difference between Koh Kai (K) and Khoh Khai (KH). The H is perfect for indicating the aspiration.
@carlcouture1023 Yes but when for example she did she say that for example Thong Lo should be spelled Tong Law. However in other European languages that would sound weird. So in this case I understand why this area was spelled this way. Anyway you can see how many accents and such had to be added to Vietnamese to be able to write it in a Latin script. The same issues exist also in neighbouring countries. For example Laos has a silent s and Vientiane is more pronounced like Wen-Chan. This is the French colonial spelling creating issues.
One thing that really helped me getting Thai tones right was realizing that we have corresponding tonal conventions in English too, namely: mid = yeah: low = nah : falling =wow! : high = what? : rising = really?………… so I would memorize a sentence as ‘2 yeahs, a wow? a nah and a really?’….🙏
Yes I once heard a Thai language teacher point out to English speakers who say they can't do tones that English also HAS tones, it's just not prescripted and changes with context. Your formula is brilliant!!
I really love your RANT. It was both informative and entertaining. But I also got to know your other side as a linguist which is new to me. I can really understand your frustration because I also care for correctness in spelling and pronunciation in Thai which is often neglected. However, I was also corrected once by one of your subscribers because I spelled Padgaprao wrong in a comment. Thank you so much for this video, and I’d like to say to you: ใจเย็นๆนะครับคุณไพลิน😉
Omg this was amazing!! 😂😂 as someone who loves both Thai food and linguistics, this video brought me joy immensely. And just the other day I went to a Thai restaurant by my place after watching your latest video on Pad KA PRAO to order it, I noticed on the menu it was spelled Pad KRA PAO and I was really confused. Thought to myself “didn’t Pailin spell and say it differently??” I’m so glad you made this video. Thank you so much!!
I love this video. I'm half Laotian, my mom was from a small village near Nakhon Phanom & I was raised in saying "Thom Som" for papaya salad... & it took me YEARS to say "Som Tom" (whatever is the English spelling is) when ordering. Heck, I've been to Thai restaurants that didn't know what Nam Pla Prik was.. fish sauce with chilies.
OMG. Finally, someone spoke my life pain as a Thai editor and food journalist out loud! You just got it, Khun Pailin. Every. Point. THANK YOU KA. #goPADKAPROW
I loved this episode. I am a Australian with italian heritage . I my husband and I lived in Chiang Mai for 7 happy years.I studied the Thai language for 5 years. It was the most difficult thing I have ever experienced. 1 I’m not a linguist by any means .i am tone deaf so every morning at6 am .i would practice my tones and my ma ma ma .would just get loader not rise in tone. I was truely enthusiastic but failed . I did have enough to be able to communicate with the locals and the food and people and culture are amazing. Hence watching you brings great memories of my time there.
This! Is! So! Useful! Really grateful for all the ways you lay out where English speakers go wrong when presented with the transliterations, thank you. Thai is a beautiful language to hear and a daunting one to learn; this is a such a great primer on these linguistic pitfalls.
8th time in Thailand, finally all my questions about spelling has been answered! I'm in Bangkok, next time I need to go to the airport I'm gonna use the proper airport name :D xoxo
Have traveled to over 55 countries. Can order a beer and ask for the check in probably 40 languages. Have found Thai and Burmese to be the most difficult to menu/street sign read. This explains a lot of it. In Thailand have simply memorized a hundred or so written words; foods, place names, ... Use point and shoot at restaurants, rather than try to mispronounce it.
Very helpful! I really want to learn the Thai language. I'm Filipino and I always feel that Thai people are our twin brothers even though we're more closely related to the Malays and Indonesians.
This was such an entertaining video for me. And yes I always wondered which spelling is correct on "Thai" menus. I had a great laugh! Thank you Ms Pailin!!
I laughed so hard when you said the travelers want to go to something "Humi-humi". Because that was exactly how one of my friends called this airport. 😂
Brilliant! Freakin’ brilliant! You just clarified 8 years of bewilderment. I am sharing your video with all Westerners I know in Thailand. It should be a primer for all visitors. I have studied over 10 languages, including 3 years studying Japanese at UT Austin, hearing Chinese in my church growing up in El Paso, Texas where my mother tongue was American English and my second language Spanish. I’ve learned Czech living in Prague. I learned Dutch living many years in Holland. But Thai?! Ugh. Every time I visit Thailand I am like, “WTF? This makes no sense. It’s all so random.” I now have an apartment in Bangkok and I will buy a place in Chiang Mai. So I will not just be a visitor anymore. I don’t plan to learn to speak Thai fluently. I just want to be able to order food in the restaurant without pointing at pictures! Your video is the most concise and insightful explanation I have seen You helped me understand all the confusing spelling I have seen. You answered specific question I have had like about the spelling to Pad Ka Prao and Suvarnabhumi. No wonder my pronunciation is not understood. Forget tones. I haven’t been able to get past the vowels and consonant in simple common every day dishes. Even my Thai friends have not been able to explain why so many menus are misleading. You are the best! I am a new fan. You are simply brilliant. Thank you, thank you!
I had always thought that since the French explorers arrived in Thailand before the English did, all the funky spellings with Roman letters were the 'fault' of the French. Haha. Thank you for the more correct version of the story. I still like to blame the French though! Great video. And the fact that "Suvarnabhumi Airport" is the first thing you see on a sign when you arrive, it should really serve to notify all new arrivals that the romanized spelling and the Thai pronunciation often are unrelated.
Hi there. Victor from Singapore here. My maternal Grandma was born in Phatallung Town in the South. The way she pronounced her birthplace is nothing like the way it is spelled. I was brought up on a diet of fiery Southern cuisine.
This is so helpful! I had guessed at some of these rules/guidelines but it was super helpful to have them laid out! Tones are fascinating to me but can be so hard to hear as someone who grew up only really hearing English and romance languages. I know you're not a linguist but it would be super interesting to hear you say the Thai alphabet/words with tone examples. I studied a Tibetan language for a bit but none of the vocal examples I could find helped me differentiate the tones. I could hear the tones you described better than other examples I've listened to. Thanks for explaining all of this!
I feel you. I found the romanizations so befuddling that I decided to learn to read Thai. Which turned out to be quite easy. So I’d recommend it for the more ambitious among you. ❤
I needed this video before I spent 3 years in Thailand. I tried for 3 years to learn Thai and only got blank stares from the locals. We even had a Thai language teacher but she was more interested in office gossip than teaching language. Plus I was older when there and could not hear tones. It was very frustrating (impossible) trying to converse.
When I phonetically write out Thai and Lao words, I combine letters like gk and pb for combo sounds like for instance in gkoi bpaah. Sometimes I’ll also add swishes, umlauts, and slashes to indicate tonal changes, glottal stops and whatnot. I still have explain it to people, but I find that it makes it much easier to repeat (or re-read more like) even if they still don’t understand the words.
I always enjoy your videos. Your clear explanations and demonstrations have helped me immensely in trying to recreate flavors found in Thailand. The food there was wonderful, but the best thing about Thailand to me was the goodness of the people I got to meet, smiles and laughter everywhere. I loved this rant. You represent your heritage beautifully. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your Thai Romanization Rant. As a ‘farang’ whose effort to learn Thai began more than fifty years ago in 1971, I have often had to hold my tongue when mis-pronunciations of Thai words made my ears metaphorically bleed. On the other hand, after half a century’s worth of learning Thai, my own pronunciation still falls short of perfect. I try to be tolerant with folks whose exposure to Thai came even later in life, and to appreciate their efforts. There is a young man, formerly a restaurateur in China, who, for a couple of years, has been making videos in Thailand about the history and complexity of Thai cuisine. In spite of his sometimes risible pronunciations of the Thai names of Thai dishes, his research and analysis does make his work worthwhile.
@@tsurugi5 He is on UA-cam. The channel is called OTR Food & History. I greatly admire the detailed work that he and his team are doing on the history of Thai and Southeast Asian Cuisines.
@@tsurugi5 He is on UA-cam. The channel is called OTR Food & History. I greatly admire the detailed work that he and his team are doing on the history of Thai and Southeast Asian Cuisines.
I go to Thailand every year, and i'm happy to say that over time i've learned more accurate pronunciations than most farangs, lol. The tonal stuff is still beyond my reach, but it doesn't seem to cause me any issues with communicating, lol. As for the consonants, when i was studying Russian as an adolescent, a concept was taught to me that really helped me in later years to understand the phantom "h" in a lot of romanized Thai words. If you say the sounds of these letter pairs out loud (d/t, g/k, b/p, f/v, s/z -- try it!), it really nicely illustrates the concept of aspirated vs unaspirated consonant pairs. And although it still doesn't 100% capture the Thai sounds, i found it to be a good analogy/reference for distinguishing the Thai t/th, k/kh, p/ph, etc. So now, rather than be "that guy" who outright tells people their pronunciation is wrong, i usually just casually (but confidently) repeat the word back to them correctly in my reply, and hope that they absorb it, lol. But the (rolled) "r" commonly being pronounced as an "L" in casual speech is something i was unaware of, so thanks for sharing that! I can't take a formal language class when i'm in Thailand cuz i'm always hopping around, so i try to absorb what i can from interacting with locals. But i always have questions, which i'm unable to ask, because no one is fluent enough in English to explain it to me! So i would loooove to see more videos like this from you, Pai! (Like seriously, sometimes i wish i could ask you my questions, lol). Thank you for being an important part of what keeps my heart (and my stomach) enamored with Thailand! ❤️🇹🇭
My mother in law from the Isan region from a village near Laos pronounces it Laap. She also makes the best version of it and Beef Salad that I ever had.
This satisfied the language geek itch in my brain. I have always wondered why Thai romanization is so weird! I tried to learn Thai in the past, by starting with the alphabet and OH BOY was it a struggle.. the sheer amount of it (consonants AND vowels) plus the number of rules and the tones (!) was so overwhelming but mesmerizing, you know? Kudos for the upload!
I like your rant. I also rant about those type of things but I just do it when I'm on my own. Nobody pronounces my last name correctly either but I'm used to it after 30+ years.
Thank you. As a language learner, professional cook, and English teacher I appreciate the video. Most people don't think about the correct pronunciation of foreign food. I live in South America, and it drives me crazy to hear an English speaker say "ha la peeno" for "Jalapeno".
As a translation major, I find this episode super interesting. It reminds me of my days in university, when I was always told that translation isn't omnipotent, especially transliteration. The situation is more or less the same for Cantonese, my mother tongue, but luckily our transliterations are a bit more standardised than Thai. But, strangely, our dishes' names are usually translated semantically rather than transliterated, for example, "fried rice" rather than "chow faan". That means our dishes' names have even more variations: you can call the same dish "fried noodles", "stir-fried noodles" or simply "noodles". And, thanks to Google, I think this is something that prevents the Cantonese, or Hong Kong-style, cuisine from going global.
So refreshing to watch this. I studied thai for some years and can read thai menus in thai and i got bothered why thai menus were wrongly translated. For some reasons thai seem to loose knowledge of their written language if they were born in another country and only speak thai, not writing.
Wow! Thanks for shedding some light on this, explains my zero understanding of the Thai language. This was informative, frustrating and hilarious all at once. I feel better now but realize I know even less now. If I ever even get english figured out (my language) I may try to understand Thai. LOL Just keep the recipes coming and I will be fine, THANKS!
I came to the US in 1970 as a child. Whomever did the paperwork at the time totally made my simple name more complicated that not one American can say it correctly. Great video. You are my go to for all my thai cooking. When people ask for my recipe I send them a link to your videos. ❤ keep up the excellent work. 👏
THANK YOU, Pailin!!!!!!! I could NOT for the life of me figure out why the same things were spelled so differently! This make SO much sense. Thanks again!
I so love this video on so many levels. I get your sensibility and thus your rant. I appreciate the fantastic and well-presented explanation of these apparent discrepancies on spelling. Why Ph in Phuket is pronounced that way rather than the "English" way, you approached this indirectly BTW with Phat Thai. I'm getting the sense that maybe you have a background in science as well with how you rank fish sauce and curry pastes. Thanks for addressing this because the discrepancies were driving me crazy, too. Can't wait for what's next!
As a Filipino who has been learning Thai for almost three years under two different teachers, I totally get this. When I first started, I only took speaking/conversation/vocabulary courses - so my tutor would have to use mostly romanized letters on our notes (with original Thai script to the side as FYI but which I had zero clue about back then). It was only when I started taking the reading and writing courses that I fully understood exactly why romanizing Thai words was difficult - all for the reasons shown in this video. It’s nigh impossible to render so many sounds “close” to T in roman letters, for example. Same with K, etc. It had also taken me a while to finally get the difference of the unaspirated middle class consonants vs. the aspirated ones in the low and high class ones. Personally, I’ve been partial to the rendering of ป as “bp” and ต as “dt” in some articles, etc. that I’ve read (ex. “bpen,” “dtom”) - as it helps remind me these are unaspirated sounds (and reminds me which letters to use when writing in Thai script). And similarly to Pailin, I think ก is indeed closer to a hard G sound than a K sound. I’m also personally partial to rendering aspirated letters with an H (ex. Phad instead of Pad) to remind me personally of how it sounds, but I do understand why many omit the H (because a casual English reader would interpret “Ph” as similar to the F sound, or “Th” as being similar to the sound in “The” or ‘Thorough” when it’s not - i.e. why a number of Westerners pronounce the word “Thailand” incorrectly… same to what Pailin stated here). Also, I’m 50/50 on Phad vs. Phat - though the former helps remind me that the Thai spelling ends with a ด, but the latter reminds me that the ending sound is closer to a T because of the whole final consonants things (same with words ending with ร which is often spelled with an R but really if used as an ending consonant is closer to an N). But if I had to choose, I’d likely go for Phad and just remind myself how final consonants are supposed to sound. As for ผัดกะเพรา, I avoid Kra-pow in general because I know that is close to how กระเป๋า would mostly be rendered in English, and I’m not about to eat fried bags LOL
How very, very interesting. I remember seeing that "Thai Romanization Table" many years ago, but had no idea how it was actually used. I'll have to check out your other "language" videos...I must have missed them, even though I've been subscribed to your channel for quite a while.
The same confusion is also with Chinese words. Not only are the Chinese spoken languages tonal, but they are also different from each other to the point of mutual unintelligibility. The Chinese surname 趙 can be romanized as Chiu, Chu, Jew, Jiu, Choo, Joo, Chao, Zhao. The Chinese surname 湯 can be romanized as Tong, Tang, Tung, Hong, Dong, Teng.
I'm currently learning Thai and I really appreciate this explanation. I even really liked how frustrated you are as I've found some weird phonetics across different apps and programs. So now I understand why.
I feel you sister. We have a wacky romanization for Burmese too and there are several different systems that people mix and match. I have to admit that we kind of bastardize Thai words when writing in Burmese too 😅
This is so entertaining and educational at the same time. As a Thai person, I kinda find it quite similar to those English names and words mostly in the UK that don’t really pronounce in the way it’s spelled. About the last part on family name, I am too stuck with how my dad chose to spell it, and most people even Thai natives have to ask me how to pronounce it correctly. 😂
Pailin, you are not only a great cook, you are also a first-class linguist and language instructor! Thanks, this was very helpful…especially about the h’s representing aspirated consonants, and the the Thai r (which linguists call a non-rhotic r, as is spoken in Australia and the U.K., as opposed to the rhotic r spoken in Ireland and North America).
This really makes me appreciate your English language ability! Your native language is so much different. About ten years ago, a couple I know accepted a missionary assignment in Thailand. But just seeing you explain the pronunciation puts my hair on fire. 🥵
I listen to speakers of the language and try to replicate the sonance of the words. When I ask for Nam Pla(pardon my spelling) I'm usually greeted with a look of surprise and appreciation. It's only when there are western servers in Thai restaurants that I have to explain what it is.
I wish your channel existed when I was going out to Thailand regularly on Holiday... I had met a Thai girl when travelling, and her nickname was the Thai word for Apple... I never did pin down how to spell or pronounce it, as she always answered "Yes" if I said is that a "P" or ask is that a "B" at the beginning!! But I had been learning languages by listening since I was young, my family lived in a number of countries as I was growing up... my "good morning" or "thank you" always brought a delighted compliment on how closely I said the words to how a Thai person would pronounce them, even switching from Proper Thai (putting the R in Krap, for instance) or leaving it out, depending whom I was talking with (formal as opposed to familiar) I love watching your videos, I love Thai food... and it always brings back memories of when I had been out there... ขอบคุณมาก!
3:58 yes this is the issue with my first and family name. G is the closest way to ก but because sometimes it is like J sound so I just go for K. Same logic with Pad Ka Prao.
I think part of the problem is that English uses a Gothic Latin alphabet, not a native one. The idea of adding an 'H' for aspiration is because the Gothic Latin alphabet doesn't have a Thorn or Eth character that existed in Old English. Modern English itself is an amalgamation of so many languages, spelling rules are wildly inconsistent not just for Thai loanwords. Often times words are spelled according to how some French speaking invader spoke or how the word was originally written in Latin or Greek, not how people speak today. As an American of Indian origin, I can understand how B and Bh differ because in Bengali, they are different letters. There's actually even different T and Th characters depending on if the tongue is in the front of the mouth or on top of the mouth when being said. In our language there's a vowel that is somewhere between an A and E, so there's multiple ways to spell words and names, also.
This is incredible!!! So funny, clear and easy to understand! I wish I knew all of this before I visited Thailand!! It was really a confusing time reading so many different iterations of the same thing. Well into my trip, I specifically remember my Thai friend pronouncing suvarnabhumi as suwannapoom. At the time I was so defeated with learning any phonetic way to say anything that I just accepted it as is, I didn't even question why she said it like that, I just ignored the fact that I was confused, storing that confusion in the back of my mind because all of the confusion was so overwhelming. Just nod and agree, which is what I did, nod and agree.
"No R". On one trip to Thailand, I went to a restaurant and the menu had a picture of some french fries. I pointed to the picture, and the waitress said "Ah, fen fai", and I thought, huh, that's curious, the Thai name for french fries sounds so much like the English name. It took me a few minutes to crunch the words in my brain before I realized she had actually said 'french fries'.
Like all of your videos, this was so educational! As a speaker of a minority language related to English that gets butchered frequently (often for humorous purposes 😒) I really appreciate you encouraging people to take a bit more effort to be respectful. It matters.
Not to mention Thai tones. If you order Thai noodle soup "Sen Lek(low tone)" you'll get "steel rod" instead of "thin noodle". 😅😁🤭 If learners can pronounce this Thai sentence "ใครขายไข่ไก่ krai kaai kai gai (means Who sell the egg?)" understandably to Thai ppl your Thai tones and pronunciation are 👍👍👍.
Love your rant. Very educational. English is a limited vocal and written language. I don’t know how the Brits got “Hui” out of 許 in Cantonese and “Ng” out of 吳. BTW. Love your “new” set, looks great
This is the most wonderful rant in this topic I have ever watched! :D I am rolling on the floor watching this while thinking about another great example : signs on the streets & express ways. I always feel so sorry for foreignors who drive here.
I just made your Tom Yum recipe the other day and it was DELICIOUS! Been watching you whenever I wanna make Thai food. Ppl in my Country love Thai food. I will make a video about it some day !
American living in Sri Lanka. Sinhala and Tamil, the two languages here, have many of the same issues with transliteration into the Latin alphabet. For example, the use of "h" or not depending on an aspirated sound is exactly the same here, as in Thailand, for both languages. Another is the double vowel, indicating that the sound is stretched out a bit longer: pan vs. paan, for example. My understanding was that back in the days of empire, linguistics (both historic and contemporary) became a huge area of academia among all European nations, but particularly with the Germans, French and especially the English. These (mostly) guys went out into the world, learned languages, and did their best to develop Latin alphabet equivalents using the commonly agreed upon transliteration standards of the time. Obviously this was super difficult for non-European languages, but we have to admit they did the best they could. European languages aren't tonal, and so most of these guys from the 16-18th centuries probably had very limited exposure of such until they went out into the field. Must have driven them crazy. The interest in linguistics wasn't purely intellectual, however. It was critical for ruling over (or at least influencing) the vast empires Europeans carved out for themselves and many linguists provided vital support for colonial structures and often were officials themselves. So while it was great that So-And-So created dictionaries of, say, Pashtun, and published translations of Pashtun poetry and literature, he was often the same guy who sent the troops into some random village where the locals were getting too uppity and critical of the colonial authorities. So... mixed bag, these fellows.
I happen to love both food AND languages so this rant couldn't possibly be more up my alley! If it helps at all, there are similar problems when other Asian languages are romanized as well. Like, is it mapo tofu or mabodofu? Why does everyone get "tonkotsu" and "tonkatsu" mixed up? How the heck is "Pho" pronounced? But learning one will help you with learning the other and it's a great way to learn more about another culture.
I ❤ the rant and I feel your pain😂 It’s the same with Korean food written in romanization on American menus. Drives me nuts😅 The Korean government also has a standardization for writing Korean words into English. I’d like to revamp that standardization and do it all phonetically 🤣
I'm 100% Thai living in Thailand and I found this VDO was really helpful to understand my own language better 😂 hilarious 😂
Same here
The use of “VDO” confirms you’re 100% Thai 5555
@@beep_boop LOL obviously 🤣🤣
what're all those 5s?@@beep_boop
@@beep_boopบอกอายุด้วยนะ อื้มหื้มมมมม! 😅
Linguist postgrad here. This is genuinely one of the reasons why I love teaching the International Phonetic Alphabet because it was invented for an accurate description of a language’s phonemes, tones, vowels, etc.
Really interesting 👍. May I ask how you would write Tom and Gaeng/Kaeng in IPA showing the tone, vowel and consonants?
Retired language teacher here in France. I taught English (mother-tongue) with CELTA, French, German and Arabic (final two BA degree and in-country work) taught at various levels at an adult education institute, although I only used IPA for myself as the teaching was not higher education.
I've always wondered how IPA would be applied to tonal languages 😊.
don't wanna be bothering here as a comment but thai is not 100% phonetic btw, cluster consonants is small exception plus some pali/sanskript words have inherent a/o vowels that you won't know until someone guides you, the simplest I can give is ถนน plus some months are really hard if you are learning to read them as a beginner but you get used to it
@@mr_wormhole +1 but that's not IPA 👍. Are you saying that the INTERNATIONAL PHONETIC ALPHABET (IPA) is not applicable to Thai? Is it not applicable to any other languages?
When I first went to school in England in 1966, I was taught ITA, even though I could already read. I cook a great Pad Kaprao btw. 🤣❤️
@@andrewrobinson2565 yea it will never be like spanish but script wise it is more consistent than arabic or chinese, or I can easily say it is very close to korean script phonetics(hangul is extra ordinary in terms of reading) but what makes thai extremely easy is its grammar at the expense of some hard to read ancient words and a bit of tone juggling(tones are way easier than chinese due to long sounds)
@@andrewrobinson2565 it is more of IPA only exists for latin people like italian / spanish etc, phonetic languages don't need to be internationally phonetic in latin, latin is just 1 way of writing, thai is phonetic in its script, latin script doesn't resemble all the sounds a language can make. Korean for example is extremely genius in this topic or quranic arabic also. Every vowel or consonant laid out perfectly so the reader can read the same for centuries
Yeah, it’s quite frustrating. Luckily if you’re finding Thai difficult, you can always go get some Szechuan/Sichuan food, order some Kung Pow/Gongbao Chicken and wash it down with an ice cold Tsingtao/Qingdao beer. Unfortunately we’d have to go to a different restaurant for Peking/Beijing duck though.
Or, alternatively, we could go grab some Canton/Guangzhou/Gwongzau food I guess?
You've found the solution. Always include version1/version2/....version 9 with everything we say and everyone will be happy.
I didn’t expect a video on Thai phonetics to be so entertaining and insightful. This is excellent content!
As a Chinese American who abhors Wade-Giles romanization and other wild romanization schemes, this video only further solidifies that Pailin is my long lost sister. The struggle to romanize Thai for SEO seems 100x harder, so props to you! Side note, I'm super excited for when you finally hit 2M subs!
I was about to make a similar comment re Wade-GIles vs pinyin. There's also a problem with tonal in that there's 6 (or 9) tones for cantonese vs 4 tones for mandarin. More explained by Wikipedia Tone Number en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_number. In some other languages they use accents or umlats etc to the character.
@@nilnz At least Hanyu Pinyin has the excuse that it was invented primarily for the purpose of teaching Mandarin phonetics to Chinese people.
Lao woman from Chiangmai here. I’ve had someone in America try to explain to me that pad ka pao, holy basil stir fry, means stir fry PURSE… and I had to explain to them that they’re confusing gapao (purse) with ka pao (holy basil). Of course, they still didn’t believe me lol, smh
Sounds like a mansplaining white American Man, no surprise to that
I love it when Pai comes out with a linguistic video. It’s not often so it makes it all the more valuable for me. Thank you for this fascinating content.
One thing that is important to add here: This is how you transliterate from Thai-script into Latin script. Latin scripted is used to write English, but not exclusively. Most languages spoken in the western world utilize Latin Script, so this is not really done with any particular regard for English specifically. The fact that is read by English speakers as the dental fricative has little relevance. The is needed to denote aspiration, which is phonemic in Thai, and therefore an important distinction within the language. Most other European languages that utilize latin script, do not utilize to denote a dental fricative, so this works, but gives a little quirk in English spelling.
Thanks for this remark. The "H" addition is indeed essential for the non-English speaking world. Aspriated or not aspirated. There is a huge difference between Koh Kai (K) and Khoh Khai (KH). The H is perfect for indicating the aspiration.
That's probably why she specifies "in English" in the video.
@carlcouture1023 Yes but when for example she did she say that for example Thong Lo should be spelled Tong Law. However in other European languages that would sound weird. So in this case I understand why this area was spelled this way. Anyway you can see how many accents and such had to be added to Vietnamese to be able to write it in a Latin script. The same issues exist also in neighbouring countries. For example Laos has a silent s and Vientiane is more pronounced like Wen-Chan. This is the French colonial spelling creating issues.
One thing that really helped me getting Thai tones right was realizing that we have corresponding tonal conventions in English too, namely: mid = yeah: low = nah : falling =wow! : high = what? : rising = really?………… so I would memorize a sentence as ‘2 yeahs, a wow? a nah and a really?’….🙏
That's really clever, I'm gonna try to remember that
@@zer0luv I sure found it helpful….so, sawatdee khrap is yeah-nah-yeah-what?………🙏
And ‘not correct’, may chay is wow!-wow!
Yes I once heard a Thai language teacher point out to English speakers who say they can't do tones that English also HAS tones, it's just not prescripted and changes with context. Your formula is brilliant!!
@@PailinsKitchen khray khaay khay kay…. yeah really! nah nah…..555. 🙏
This is a very very eloquent rant and a very well edited and produced video. Very impressive
I really love your RANT. It was both informative and entertaining. But I also got to know your other side as a linguist which is new to me. I can really understand your frustration because I also care for correctness in spelling and pronunciation in Thai which is often neglected. However, I was also corrected once by one of your subscribers because I spelled Padgaprao wrong in a comment. Thank you so much for this video, and I’d like to say to you: ใจเย็นๆนะครับคุณไพลิน😉
I'm learning Thai script right now and this was actually very useful! Explained better than some books and websites I've seen lol
Omg this was amazing!! 😂😂 as someone who loves both Thai food and linguistics, this video brought me joy immensely. And just the other day I went to a Thai restaurant by my place after watching your latest video on Pad KA PRAO to order it, I noticed on the menu it was spelled Pad KRA PAO and I was really confused. Thought to myself “didn’t Pailin spell and say it differently??” I’m so glad you made this video. Thank you so much!!
I love this video. I'm half Laotian, my mom was from a small village near Nakhon Phanom & I was raised in saying "Thom Som" for papaya salad... & it took me YEARS to say "Som Tom" (whatever is the English spelling is) when ordering. Heck, I've been to Thai restaurants that didn't know what Nam Pla Prik was.. fish sauce with chilies.
Seems like lao gets it right more then thai 😅
Hi! northern Thai here and in our dialect we also called Thom Som too!
ตำส้ม สำหรับคนเหนือ คนอีสานเรียกตำบักหุง คนภาคกลางนั่นแหละที่เรียกส้มตำ ว่าแต่คนลาวไม่รู้จักน้ำปลาพริกจริงดิ?
ลาวอย่ามั่ว
OMG. Finally, someone spoke my life pain as a Thai editor and food journalist out loud! You just got it, Khun Pailin. Every. Point. THANK YOU KA.
#goPADKAPROW
I loved this episode. I am a Australian with italian heritage . I my husband and I lived in Chiang Mai for 7 happy years.I studied the Thai language for 5 years. It was the most difficult thing I have ever experienced. 1 I’m not a linguist by any means .i am tone deaf so every morning at6 am .i would practice my tones and my ma ma ma .would just get loader not rise in tone. I was truely enthusiastic but failed . I did have enough to be able to communicate with the locals and the food and people and culture are amazing. Hence watching you brings great memories of my time there.
This! Is! So! Useful! Really grateful for all the ways you lay out where English speakers go wrong when presented with the transliterations, thank you. Thai is a beautiful language to hear and a daunting one to learn; this is a such a great primer on these linguistic pitfalls.
8th time in Thailand, finally all my questions about spelling has been answered!
I'm in Bangkok, next time I need to go to the airport I'm gonna use the proper airport name :D xoxo
learn the tones too :D
Best explanation I've seen of Thai. So what did you I learn? Pailan is a great cook and host, pretty smart too. Well done.
Have traveled to over 55 countries. Can order a beer and ask for the check in probably 40 languages. Have found Thai and Burmese to be the most difficult to menu/street sign read. This explains a lot of it. In Thailand have simply memorized a hundred or so written words; foods, place names, ... Use point and shoot at restaurants, rather than try to mispronounce it.
lived there a decade, can speak street *wong lao* thai quite well and i can confirm this is the smart way to go about it 555
Very helpful! I really want to learn the Thai language. I'm Filipino and I always feel that Thai people are our twin brothers even though we're more closely related to the Malays and Indonesians.
Wow, this was super interesting! It is so versatile with someone doing a cooking show going into the field of language. How fantastic!
This was such an entertaining video for me. And yes I always wondered which spelling is correct on "Thai" menus. I had a great laugh! Thank you Ms Pailin!!
I laughed so hard when you said the travelers want to go to something "Humi-humi". Because that was exactly how one of my friends called this airport. 😂
Brilliant! Freakin’ brilliant! You just clarified 8 years of bewilderment.
I am sharing your video with all Westerners I know in Thailand. It should be a primer for all visitors.
I have studied over 10 languages, including 3 years studying Japanese at UT Austin, hearing Chinese in my church growing up in El Paso, Texas where my mother tongue was American English and my second language Spanish. I’ve learned Czech living in Prague. I learned Dutch living many years in Holland. But Thai?! Ugh.
Every time I visit Thailand I am like, “WTF? This makes no sense. It’s all so random.”
I now have an apartment in Bangkok and I will buy a place in Chiang Mai. So I will not just be a visitor anymore. I don’t plan to learn to speak Thai fluently. I just want to be able to order food in the restaurant without pointing at pictures!
Your video is the most concise and insightful explanation I have seen You helped me understand all the confusing spelling I have seen. You answered specific question I have had like about the spelling to Pad Ka Prao and Suvarnabhumi. No wonder my pronunciation is not understood. Forget tones. I haven’t been able to get past the vowels and consonant in simple common every day dishes. Even my Thai friends have not been able to explain why so many menus are misleading.
You are the best! I am a new fan. You are simply brilliant. Thank you, thank you!
I had always thought that since the French explorers arrived in Thailand before the English did, all the funky spellings with Roman letters were the 'fault' of the French. Haha. Thank you for the more correct version of the story. I still like to blame the French though! Great video. And the fact that "Suvarnabhumi Airport" is the first thing you see on a sign when you arrive, it should really serve to notify all new arrivals that the romanized spelling and the Thai pronunciation often are unrelated.
Hi there. Victor from Singapore here.
My maternal Grandma was born in Phatallung Town in the South.
The way she pronounced her birthplace is nothing like the way it is spelled.
I was brought up on a diet of fiery Southern cuisine.
Pailin, I'm still a fan. I love Thai food. I love your channel and I love your honesty and artistry. I trust you and hope you are eating.
This is so helpful! I had guessed at some of these rules/guidelines but it was super helpful to have them laid out! Tones are fascinating to me but can be so hard to hear as someone who grew up only really hearing English and romance languages.
I know you're not a linguist but it would be super interesting to hear you say the Thai alphabet/words with tone examples. I studied a Tibetan language for a bit but none of the vocal examples I could find helped me differentiate the tones. I could hear the tones you described better than other examples I've listened to. Thanks for explaining all of this!
I feel you. I found the romanizations so befuddling that I decided to learn to read Thai. Which turned out to be quite easy. So I’d recommend it for the more ambitious among you. ❤
I needed this video before I spent 3 years in Thailand. I tried for 3 years to learn Thai and only got blank stares from the locals. We even had a Thai language teacher but she was more interested in office gossip than teaching language. Plus I was older when there and could not hear tones. It was very frustrating (impossible) trying to converse.
When I phonetically write out Thai and Lao words, I combine letters like gk and pb for combo sounds like for instance in gkoi bpaah. Sometimes I’ll also add swishes, umlauts, and slashes to indicate tonal changes, glottal stops and whatnot. I still have explain it to people, but I find that it makes it much easier to repeat (or re-read more like) even if they still don’t understand the words.
I always enjoy your videos. Your clear explanations and demonstrations have helped me immensely in trying to recreate flavors found in Thailand. The food there was wonderful, but the best thing about Thailand to me was the goodness of the people I got to meet, smiles and laughter everywhere. I loved this rant. You represent your heritage beautifully. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your Thai Romanization Rant. As a ‘farang’ whose effort to learn Thai began more than fifty years ago in 1971, I have often had to hold my tongue when mis-pronunciations of Thai words made my ears metaphorically bleed. On the other hand, after half a century’s worth of learning Thai, my own pronunciation still falls short of perfect. I try to be tolerant with folks whose exposure to Thai came even later in life, and to appreciate their efforts.
There is a young man, formerly a restaurateur in China, who, for a couple of years, has been making videos in Thailand about the history and complexity of Thai cuisine. In spite of his sometimes risible pronunciations of the Thai names of Thai dishes, his research and analysis does make his work worthwhile.
Could I ask you who that restaurateur is? Is he on youtube?
@@tsurugi5 He is on UA-cam. The channel is called OTR Food & History. I greatly admire the detailed work that he and his team are doing on the history of Thai and Southeast Asian Cuisines.
The OTR channel?
@@tsurugi5 He is on UA-cam. The channel is called OTR Food & History. I greatly admire the detailed work that he and his team are doing on the history of Thai and Southeast Asian Cuisines.
I go to Thailand every year, and i'm happy to say that over time i've learned more accurate pronunciations than most farangs, lol. The tonal stuff is still beyond my reach, but it doesn't seem to cause me any issues with communicating, lol.
As for the consonants, when i was studying Russian as an adolescent, a concept was taught to me that really helped me in later years to understand the phantom "h" in a lot of romanized Thai words. If you say the sounds of these letter pairs out loud (d/t, g/k, b/p, f/v, s/z -- try it!), it really nicely illustrates the concept of aspirated vs unaspirated consonant pairs. And although it still doesn't 100% capture the Thai sounds, i found it to be a good analogy/reference for distinguishing the Thai t/th, k/kh, p/ph, etc. So now, rather than be "that guy" who outright tells people their pronunciation is wrong, i usually just casually (but confidently) repeat the word back to them correctly in my reply, and hope that they absorb it, lol.
But the (rolled) "r" commonly being pronounced as an "L" in casual speech is something i was unaware of, so thanks for sharing that!
I can't take a formal language class when i'm in Thailand cuz i'm always hopping around, so i try to absorb what i can from interacting with locals. But i always have questions, which i'm unable to ask, because no one is fluent enough in English to explain it to me! So i would loooove to see more videos like this from you, Pai! (Like seriously, sometimes i wish i could ask you my questions, lol).
Thank you for being an important part of what keeps my heart (and my stomach) enamored with Thailand! ❤️🇹🇭
My mother in law from the Isan region from a village near Laos pronounces it Laap. She also makes the best version of it and Beef Salad that I ever had.
This satisfied the language geek itch in my brain. I have always wondered why Thai romanization is so weird! I tried to learn Thai in the past, by starting with the alphabet and OH BOY was it a struggle.. the sheer amount of it (consonants AND vowels) plus the number of rules and the tones (!) was so overwhelming but mesmerizing, you know? Kudos for the upload!
You've made this so terribly hilarious. Both educational and incredibly funny. Thanks for the laughs!
I like your rant. I also rant about those type of things but I just do it when I'm on my own. Nobody pronounces my last name correctly either but I'm used to it after 30+ years.
ชอบวิดีโอนี้มากค่ะ เห็นด้วยทุกอย่าง และงงว่ารัฐทำไมสะกดคำต่างๆแปลกๆ ทำให้ต่างชาติออกเสียงผิดไปด้วย เช่น wat pho ฝรั่งอ่าน วัดโฟ (วัดโพธิ์)
kamphangphet กำแฟงเฟด
อันนี้เพราะมันเป็นระบบ Transliteration ที่ราชบัณฑิตใช้น่ะครับ ข้อนึงคืออักษรพวกนี้คือ อักษรโรมัน ไม่ใช่แค่อังกฤษ วิธีสะกดมันเลยขึ้นกับแต่ละที่จะเลือกบัญญัติขึ้นมา ญี่ปุ่น หรือจีน ก็มีระบบมาตรฐานของเค้าอย่าง Romanji หรือ Pinyin เช่นกัน
ไม่ได้จะบอกว่าระบบที่ราชบัณฑิตกำหนดดีที่สุด เพราะบางข้อกำหนดก็ยังแปลกๆ แต่การเอาวิธีคิดแบบ Anglophone ไปครอบภาษาที่เป็นของไทย ก็ไม่มีประโยชน์เช่นกัน ความเห็นส่วนตัว ทางการน่าจะทำให้มันเป็นกิจลักษณะไปเลยว่า ระบบมาตรฐานในการ transliteration เป็นยังไง และสอนให้คนไทยส่วนใหญ่รู้ไปด้วย (เหมือนที่ญี่ปุ่นก็ให้คนในชาติเข้าใจการใช้ Romanji แบบชัดๆไปเลย)
ปล.การสะกดในภาษา”อังกฤษ”นั่นแหละมีปัญหาที่สุดเพราะ แต่ละตัวออกเสียงได้หลายแบบมาก หลายคำต้องรู้วิธีอ่านเท่านั้น ภาษาอื่นอย่างสเปน อิตาลี เยอรมันที่ใช้อักษรโรมันเช่นกันไม่ประสบปัญหานี้ เพราะมีระบบการสะกดที่ชัดเจนเป็นระเบียบกว่าเยอะ อย่าไปตามพวกใช้ภาษาอังกฤษเค้าเลยครับเรื่องนี้ 😂
โคตรถูกต้อง ชื่อนามสกุลผม จะสะกด
ตามที่ออกเสียงได้เพราะไม่เห็นด้วย ตั้งแต่ตอนเด็กแล้ว เลยไม่ได้สะกดตามหลักภาษา
รัฐบาลเขาทำถูกแล้วจ้า เขาสะกดตามหลัก ipa ไม่ใช่ภาษาอังกฤษ ไปดูภาษาฮินดีก็ได้เขาใช้ระบบนี้เหมือนกัน ของไทยก็มีแต่สระ โอ กับ ออ ที่ดันใช้ตัวเดียวกัน นอกนั้นก็ถูกต้องตามหลัก ipa หมด
แล้วคำว่า วัดโพธิ์ ถ้าไม่ให้เขียนแบบนั้นแล้วต้องเขียนยังไง ในเมื่อตัว P ในภาษาไทยมันคือ ป.ปลา ตัว พ.พานเป็น ป.ปลาเป็นมีลม มันก็ต้องเติม H แทนเสียงลม
เขาเขียนเป็น romanization ไม่ใช่เขียนให้คนอังกฤษอ่าน อย่าเอามาตรฐานอังกฤษมากำหนด
Thank you. As a language learner, professional cook, and English teacher I appreciate the video. Most people don't think about the correct pronunciation of foreign food. I live in South America, and it drives me crazy to hear an English speaker say "ha la peeno" for "Jalapeno".
Love this video! Love that you're explaining all about Thai food and not just about the cooking!
WOW! This video answered so many of my questions about spelling. Extremely informative and entertaining. Thank you so much!
That was one great video! Funny, well produced, great content, just amazing!
I’ve been following you since the beginning. I live for Thai food. But this is hands down your best video ever.
As a translation major, I find this episode super interesting. It reminds me of my days in university, when I was always told that translation isn't omnipotent, especially transliteration. The situation is more or less the same for Cantonese, my mother tongue, but luckily our transliterations are a bit more standardised than Thai. But, strangely, our dishes' names are usually translated semantically rather than transliterated, for example, "fried rice" rather than "chow faan". That means our dishes' names have even more variations: you can call the same dish "fried noodles", "stir-fried noodles" or simply "noodles". And, thanks to Google, I think this is something that prevents the Cantonese, or Hong Kong-style, cuisine from going global.
Har gau & char siu pronounced by people from North America makes my blood boil, just as larrrrb does for Ms Chongchitnant.
So refreshing to watch this. I studied thai for some years and can read thai menus in thai and i got bothered why thai menus were wrongly translated. For some reasons thai seem to loose knowledge of their written language if they were born in another country and only speak thai, not writing.
Wow! Thanks for shedding some light on this, explains my zero understanding of the Thai language. This was informative, frustrating and hilarious all at once. I feel better now but realize I know even less now. If I ever even get english figured out (my language) I may try to understand Thai. LOL Just keep the recipes coming and I will be fine, THANKS!
Fab video! You’re a teacher through and through.
I came to the US in 1970 as a child. Whomever did the paperwork at the time totally made my simple name more complicated that not one American can say it correctly. Great video. You are my go to for all my thai cooking. When people ask for my recipe I send them a link to your videos. ❤ keep up the excellent work. 👏
This was amazing and goes so much deeper than I expected. Thank you.
Love this 100%!! Thank you so much. Will be watching a few more times to try and memorize pronunciations. Please do more of this when you can.
You are definitely my only-go-to for anything, everything Thai. ❤ Yeah will check out that 3 vids
I’ve followed you for a couple of years and love you. Thanks so much! Go ahead and “rant”. I feel your pain and learned a lot.
This is mind-blowing! It answered my question about the menu at all the Thai restaurants I’ve been to!
THANK YOU, Pailin!!!!!!! I could NOT for the life of me figure out why the same things were spelled so differently! This make SO much sense. Thanks again!
I so love this video on so many levels. I get your sensibility and thus your rant. I appreciate the fantastic and well-presented explanation of these apparent discrepancies on spelling. Why Ph in Phuket is pronounced that way rather than the "English" way, you approached this indirectly BTW with Phat Thai. I'm getting the sense that maybe you have a background in science as well with how you rank fish sauce and curry pastes. Thanks for addressing this because the discrepancies were driving me crazy, too. Can't wait for what's next!
As a Filipino who has been learning Thai for almost three years under two different teachers, I totally get this.
When I first started, I only took speaking/conversation/vocabulary courses - so my tutor would have to use mostly romanized letters on our notes (with original Thai script to the side as FYI but which I had zero clue about back then).
It was only when I started taking the reading and writing courses that I fully understood exactly why romanizing Thai words was difficult - all for the reasons shown in this video. It’s nigh impossible to render so many sounds “close” to T in roman letters, for example. Same with K, etc.
It had also taken me a while to finally get the difference of the unaspirated middle class consonants vs. the aspirated ones in the low and high class ones.
Personally, I’ve been partial to the rendering of ป as “bp” and ต as “dt” in some articles, etc. that I’ve read (ex. “bpen,” “dtom”) - as it helps remind me these are unaspirated sounds (and reminds me which letters to use when writing in Thai script). And similarly to Pailin, I think ก is indeed closer to a hard G sound than a K sound.
I’m also personally partial to rendering aspirated letters with an H (ex. Phad instead of Pad) to remind me personally of how it sounds, but I do understand why many omit the H (because a casual English reader would interpret “Ph” as similar to the F sound, or “Th” as being similar to the sound in “The” or ‘Thorough” when it’s not - i.e. why a number of Westerners pronounce the word “Thailand” incorrectly… same to what Pailin stated here).
Also, I’m 50/50 on Phad vs. Phat - though the former helps remind me that the Thai spelling ends with a ด, but the latter reminds me that the ending sound is closer to a T because of the whole final consonants things (same with words ending with ร which is often spelled with an R but really if used as an ending consonant is closer to an N). But if I had to choose, I’d likely go for Phad and just remind myself how final consonants are supposed to sound.
As for ผัดกะเพรา, I avoid Kra-pow in general because I know that is close to how กระเป๋า would mostly be rendered in English, and I’m not about to eat fried bags LOL
I loved this, especially the tips at the end. Thank you for the valuable insights on pronunciation!
How very, very interesting. I remember seeing that "Thai Romanization Table" many years ago, but had no idea how it was actually used. I'll have to check out your other "language" videos...I must have missed them, even though I've been subscribed to your channel for quite a while.
Good rant, Pai! Paying attention to this kind of detail matters to a lot of us. ❤
She represents everything that I like: Smiling, rhetorical, talented, sweet in character and spontaneous in spirit.
Finally!!!! Hi Pailin - thank you so much for that video 🙏🙏🙏
A very good description to pronounce all that Thai dishes the best possible way. ♥️
This was equally fascinating, informative, and entertaining.
The same confusion is also with Chinese words. Not only are the Chinese spoken languages tonal, but they are also different from each other to the point of mutual unintelligibility.
The Chinese surname 趙 can be romanized as Chiu, Chu, Jew, Jiu, Choo, Joo, Chao, Zhao.
The Chinese surname 湯 can be romanized as Tong, Tang, Tung, Hong, Dong, Teng.
This video was sooooo helpful! You have answered the question that I'm sure everyone has asked themselves before :-)
I'm currently learning Thai and I really appreciate this explanation. I even really liked how frustrated you are as I've found some weird phonetics across different apps and programs. So now I understand why.
I feel you sister. We have a wacky romanization for Burmese too and there are several different systems that people mix and match. I have to admit that we kind of bastardize Thai words when writing in Burmese too 😅
This is so entertaining and educational at the same time. As a Thai person, I kinda find it quite similar to those English names and words mostly in the UK that don’t really pronounce in the way it’s spelled.
About the last part on family name, I am too stuck with how my dad chose to spell it, and most people even Thai natives have to ask me how to pronounce it correctly. 😂
Pailin, you are not only a great cook, you are also a first-class linguist and language instructor! Thanks, this was very helpful…especially about the h’s representing aspirated consonants, and the the Thai r (which linguists call a non-rhotic r, as is spoken in Australia and the U.K., as opposed to the rhotic r spoken in Ireland and North America).
As a lover of southeast Asian foods and linguistics geek I found this video fascinating! Really enjoy your channel and your knowledge. Well done!
What an informative and well produced video!!!
This really makes me appreciate your English language ability! Your native language is so much different. About ten years ago, a couple I know accepted a missionary assignment in Thailand. But just seeing you explain the pronunciation puts my hair on fire. 🥵
Pai, you are so delightful! And entertaining and educational. Thank you for your content!
Fascinating! Before I retired, I had several Thai graduate students and yet I was completely unaware of this. Thank you for sharing.
I listen to speakers of the language and try to replicate the sonance of the words. When I ask for Nam Pla(pardon my spelling) I'm usually greeted with a look of surprise and appreciation. It's only when there are western servers in Thai restaurants that I have to explain what it is.
I wish your channel existed when I was going out to Thailand regularly on Holiday... I had met a Thai girl when travelling, and her nickname was the Thai word for Apple... I never did pin down how to spell or pronounce it, as she always answered "Yes" if I said is that a "P" or ask is that a "B" at the beginning!!
But I had been learning languages by listening since I was young, my family lived in a number of countries as I was growing up... my "good morning" or "thank you" always brought a delighted compliment on how closely I said the words to how a Thai person would pronounce them, even switching from Proper Thai (putting the R in Krap, for instance) or leaving it out, depending whom I was talking with (formal as opposed to familiar) I love watching your videos, I love Thai food... and it always brings back memories of when I had been out there... ขอบคุณมาก!
Thank you, that cleared up a whole bunch of things for me. And your tips are great - my most used is #8 as I use it in every country I visit!
One of the best videos, ever. I have always wondered about the inconsistencies.
This video is really useful fun to watch and practical, I would pay more attention on the menu next time i go to a Thai restaurant.
more language lessons!!! yes!!!! Thank you!!! i love thai food but i just rarely hear the names of dishes said correctly. this is awesome
3:58 yes this is the issue with my first and family name. G is the closest way to ก but because sometimes it is like J sound so I just go for K. Same logic with Pad Ka Prao.
I think part of the problem is that English uses a Gothic Latin alphabet, not a native one. The idea of adding an 'H' for aspiration is because the Gothic Latin alphabet doesn't have a Thorn or Eth character that existed in Old English. Modern English itself is an amalgamation of so many languages, spelling rules are wildly inconsistent not just for Thai loanwords. Often times words are spelled according to how some French speaking invader spoke or how the word was originally written in Latin or Greek, not how people speak today. As an American of Indian origin, I can understand how B and Bh differ because in Bengali, they are different letters. There's actually even different T and Th characters depending on if the tongue is in the front of the mouth or on top of the mouth when being said. In our language there's a vowel that is somewhere between an A and E, so there's multiple ways to spell words and names, also.
This is incredible!!! So funny, clear and easy to understand! I wish I knew all of this before I visited Thailand!! It was really a confusing time reading so many different iterations of the same thing. Well into my trip, I specifically remember my Thai friend pronouncing suvarnabhumi as suwannapoom. At the time I was so defeated with learning any phonetic way to say anything that I just accepted it as is, I didn't even question why she said it like that, I just ignored the fact that I was confused, storing that confusion in the back of my mind because all of the confusion was so overwhelming. Just nod and agree, which is what I did, nod and agree.
"No R". On one trip to Thailand, I went to a restaurant and the menu had a picture of some french fries. I pointed to the picture, and the waitress said "Ah, fen fai", and I thought, huh, that's curious, the Thai name for french fries sounds so much like the English name. It took me a few minutes to crunch the words in my brain before I realized she had actually said 'french fries'.
Yup... We have lazy tongue. 😅
As a Thai food lover with some background in phonetics, this episode is especially enjoyable to watch :)))
Like all of your videos, this was so educational! As a speaker of a minority language related to English that gets butchered frequently (often for humorous purposes 😒) I really appreciate you encouraging people to take a bit more effort to be respectful. It matters.
Not to mention Thai tones.
If you order Thai noodle soup "Sen Lek(low tone)" you'll get "steel rod" instead of "thin noodle". 😅😁🤭
If learners can pronounce this Thai sentence "ใครขายไข่ไก่ krai kaai kai gai (means Who sell the egg?)" understandably to Thai ppl your Thai tones and pronunciation are 👍👍👍.
Or try "ไม้ใหม่ไหม้มั้ย?" which is pronounced "mai mai mai mai" and it means "Did the new wood burn?"
@@anansak517
😁😅👍
@anansak517
👍👍👍😅🇹🇭
BEST clip! You are also getting it off my chest too. Thanks Pai!
Love your rant. Very educational. English is a limited vocal and written language. I don’t know how the Brits got “Hui” out of 許 in Cantonese and “Ng” out of 吳. BTW. Love your “new” set, looks great
Because that’s how it’s pronounced (approximately). How else would you transcribe 吳？
No joke you should be teaching Thai. As a Thai, this is gold. 😅
This was so fascinating! Thank you for sharing this.
This is the most wonderful rant in this topic I have ever watched! :D
I am rolling on the floor watching this while thinking about another great example : signs on the streets & express ways. I always feel so sorry for foreignors who drive here.
Absolutely wonderful video, so informative and helpful!! Thank you!
I just made your Tom Yum recipe the other day and it was DELICIOUS! Been watching you whenever I wanna make Thai food. Ppl in my Country love Thai food. I will make a video about it some day !
American living in Sri Lanka. Sinhala and Tamil, the two languages here, have many of the same issues with transliteration into the Latin alphabet. For example, the use of "h" or not depending on an aspirated sound is exactly the same here, as in Thailand, for both languages. Another is the double vowel, indicating that the sound is stretched out a bit longer: pan vs. paan, for example.
My understanding was that back in the days of empire, linguistics (both historic and contemporary) became a huge area of academia among all European nations, but particularly with the Germans, French and especially the English. These (mostly) guys went out into the world, learned languages, and did their best to develop Latin alphabet equivalents using the commonly agreed upon transliteration standards of the time. Obviously this was super difficult for non-European languages, but we have to admit they did the best they could. European languages aren't tonal, and so most of these guys from the 16-18th centuries probably had very limited exposure of such until they went out into the field. Must have driven them crazy.
The interest in linguistics wasn't purely intellectual, however. It was critical for ruling over (or at least influencing) the vast empires Europeans carved out for themselves and many linguists provided vital support for colonial structures and often were officials themselves. So while it was great that So-And-So created dictionaries of, say, Pashtun, and published translations of Pashtun poetry and literature, he was often the same guy who sent the troops into some random village where the locals were getting too uppity and critical of the colonial authorities. So... mixed bag, these fellows.
I happen to love both food AND languages so this rant couldn't possibly be more up my alley! If it helps at all, there are similar problems when other Asian languages are romanized as well. Like, is it mapo tofu or mabodofu? Why does everyone get "tonkotsu" and "tonkatsu" mixed up? How the heck is "Pho" pronounced? But learning one will help you with learning the other and it's a great way to learn more about another culture.
been to Thailand once and like to eat in Thai restaurants. THANK YOU! I thought I was going crazy. lol
I ❤ the rant and I feel your pain😂 It’s the same with Korean food written in romanization on American menus. Drives me nuts😅 The Korean government also has a standardization for writing Korean words into English. I’d like to revamp that standardization and do it all phonetically 🤣
These are the answers I needed! Thank you!!