How to Design, Install, and Test a Perfect Kitchen Exhaust and Make Up Air System
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 тра 2021
- Using Fantech's hood liner system (www.fantech.net/our-solutions...) and active make up air system (www.fantech.net/our-solutions...) with custom grilles from Stellar Air Vents (stellarairdecorativeventcover..., we made our home a test lab for tuning indoor chemistry with state of the art ventilation. Thanks to LBNL’s Brett Singer for helping me get in high gear on this topic.
Get a quick and easy crash course in how your kitchen exhaust should work: • Kitchen Exhaust Fan: H...
See the first-ever TV show about the science of homes: HomeDiagnosis.tv
Become a member and support our work sharing this info: / homediagnosistv - Наука та технологія
Great system. I have created almost the same system with a few key differences. First my exhaust fan is a remote fan located in the attic exiting through the roof. I used a Linx silencer right before the fan and it works very well, especially since I have a 1,300 cfm system. My make up air is where things really differ. I ran a duct line under the house out the foundation using a square to round adapter on one of the crawlspace vents. A Belimo actuated damper controls the trunk line when the fan is in use. This crawlspace line then ties into the return on my HVAC system. When the exhaust is in use the damper opens and I wired a signal into the thermostat to hijack the HVAC fan. The fact the return line is connected to both the outside duct line and the regular house return allows the system to self balance pressure wise with no noticeable difference. The benefit to this design is that I use the existing HVAC to condition the outside air in both hot and cold conditions. The other benefit is the “brains” cost. I control all of this with a $25 dual relay and 120v to 24v doorbell transformer.
All said, well done. Not enough people understand the benefits of indoor air quality and the need for makeup air.
Just discovered your video via a friend in Asheville, NC. Great work! And, excellent production values.
I'm doing similar diagnostics/solutions for clients up here in Chapel Hill, NC and had a major remodel to solve a few years ago where the upfit involved a 2400cfm range hood and a gas log fireplace.
Fortunately had a little-used full basement that we were able to use as a buffer pool of air with dedicated temperature and humidity control. After determining the max needed makeup CFM, filtered make-up air was introduced there via a sized, passive, dampered, filtered opening, controlled by the hood control, then back to the main body of the house via full sized basement filtered opening to the house return duct system. Worked quite well.
Looking forward to seeing your other videos.
Wow, Randy, that sounds pretty cool! Might make for a great video…
A few observations, I have built 2 tight houses, one in 1985 and another in 2000 that I currently still live in. I’m thinking of building one more, which would be my last. I’m almost 67 yo. I built a duct with a butterfly valve to feed the clothes dryer from the attic, opening automatically when the dryer is turned on. It’s worked flawlessly for 20 years. I must open a window or door for the range hood to work properly. I like the equal air in and out. I am an old gadget nerd, but also like to keep it simple. Observation 1, I’m thinking I would just get 2 identical fans with the inlet air going thru a butterfly valve like you have. I would have both fans controlled by the same switch so theoretically both fans should be running the same speed. I would have to make sure the valve opens. Observation 2, I live in south Louisiana. I don’t care about the air being cold. Sure, we get some cold air, but very seldom. We do have plenty of mid 90’s days. I don’t like blowing out lots of air conditioned air, replacing it with 95° air. Your kitchen would get hot pretty quick with that hot of air coming in. I could design a heat exchanger to cool the incoming air. Just off the top of my head, I could possibly use a water filled radiator. Anyway I like your concept. I’m in the design stage now anyway. Not in a rush. I’ve watched numerous videos of yours. I did notice when you first turned the vent fan on high, outside air was being sucked inside thru the door sweep on the threshold. 🤓 Good video 👍🏻
Love the fact the fan is quiet. I vote for quiet neighbors, quiet cars, quiet power tools (not invented yet), quiet planet.
No kids in your house then either? ;)
That last one sounded a bit ominous...
Quiet vibr....🤭 aaaahmmmmhhh
children. Quiet children that are unknown to us.
Buy the kids a video game console and headphones. Enjoy the silence.
Ha! Your video is just what I needed. I am building a new home and my NG gas cooktop is going to be on an island at the far end of our glass-clad Great Room looking down onto Cherokee Lake, TN. My idea for the make-up air is to recess the cooktop about 2 or 3 inches below the counter of the island and have make-up air vents around the three sides of the recess. I envision a rectangular wall of air between my cooktop and the the exhaust hood the vents are right next to the cooktop. Never considered having to heat the air from outside so thank you for taking the time to make this video. I now have a plan.
Perfect timing, Tim! Here’s a sneak preview of a video we’ll drop tomorrow. Only our Patreon members have seen this yet-
3 Rules for Make Up Air Systems: Planning Home Ventilation that Performs
ua-cam.com/video/36eMZNyAlGY/v-deo.html
Found what I have been looking for since long. Simple explanation of kitchen exhaust system in smooth slow verbals.
Happy to hear it Muhammad
Corbett, this is the only channel where I am able to get consistently detailed information on this topic, thank you.
9:35 If your basement is tight, it seems to me that if the make-up air vent(s) is large enough, then the system should end at the filter, thus using the crawl space cavity as a plenum. The incoming air would be tempered by the crawl space air and then be delivered passively to inside the house, which would further temper the air. There could also be an option to filter the incoming crawl space air; but that run of duct, the fan, silencer and the rest would not be needed, is what I am thinking.
Thanks buddy! There’s actually quite a big difference between active and passive (fanless) make up air- watch this:
How to Size Ventilation Make Up Air: 2 Awesome Free Tools for Design Calculations
ua-cam.com/video/CSmwDGxtlHU/v-deo.html
@@HomePerformance Thanks for sharing. I just watched the video and commented.
With tight homes, i encourage a barometric relief damper onto the exhaust line. The back draft damper that comes with the system is to stop air coming in from the outside. With your ERV s running and bringing air into your home, The air will go out your exhaust duct work , once the pressure builds up in the home.
Good video. The primary reason makeup air and similar advanced iaq systems are not used in residential is because they are not required by code and spec builders don't include them. All of these techniques are standard in commercial kitchens including evaporative cooling in the makeup stream. Many would argue that a dehumidifier in the makeup air would be an improvement. The makeup air under the cabinets is great. A small point: I think you should simply use the terms the industry employs instead of prefixing some with "what is called" toekick registers or "what is called" an ecm motor.
Many states have code that requires makeup air for anything that moves 400cfm or greater. its also why so many spec homes have cheap
Little do they know make up air might still be totally necessary:
3 Rules for Kitchen Make Up Air Systems: HVAC Training for Home Ventilation that Performs
ua-cam.com/video/36eMZNyAlGY/v-deo.html
Wonderful information and is spot on. I have had 50 years experience in industrial ventilation in Detroit the area. You have all the right inclinations and applications. Question, what about a clothes dryer in operation? I find an open fireplace dangerous and so useless that they should be all removed.
Agreed, and thanks Robert! We encourage everyone to check out heat pump dryers- no exhaust, no humidity added to the indoors.
This is class leading information and very technically accurate. Thank you. Where can we find a list of parts that you used in your build?
Thanks Grant- it’s all in the youtube playlist on our high performance homestead, or you could book an hour consult and I’ll tell you whatever you want to know
Very interesting and I learn a lot form your videos. I would monitor your make up system for condensation along its path and beneath your wooden cabinets.
Thanks Chuck! You mean from humid air during A/C season, I presume- I hear you, it’s part of why I made the incoming ductwork so long (and uninsulated)- preconditioning where it’s safe.
Thanks for sharing the whole troubleshooting process
This is great info. (I LOVE that you don't have any combustable fixtures!). Can't you turn off the radon system to see if you get the meter to "0"? Maybe if you remove the noise abatement ducting from your hood you could hear it at the low setting, thus no need for the LED light?
Corbett, I will say that the problem with the MUAS FMAC not waking up might have to do with the fact that we originally designed this to be used with an AC exhaust fan. The sensor we chose to "listen", as you put it (I love how you describe this stuff...it's great) was originally selected by Gary and Brandon (props to my old colleagues and kickass engineers!!!) to listen to an AC fan which emits a higher current draw. So, if a customer chooses an EC fan for the exhaust, it could be that they should send a kit with a 0-10v potentiometer as well as a lower threshold sensor. I'll send this link to the engineering manager. Cheers! Also, kickass production value on these dude! You and Grace are killing it. - Phil
Thanks for continuing to work with us even though you don’t work there anymore my friend! Hope to see you down the road.
Hi Corbett, a year later, curious if you’ve gotten a confirmation from Fantech about AC/EC design assumptions @mysunnyjim mentioned and if you’ve changed anything about the system since the video (e.g. 0-10v potentiometer) to lower the threshold vs. just living with it by operating it somewhat carefully?
Any idea if, for folks who have venting appliances in addition to the kitchen exhaust, going with pressure sensing vs. voltage of exhaust might reduce the ramp up time of make-up compared to what you’re seeing?
Great content btw! Thank you.
Hey Emir- no progress, we just run it carefully. And I believe you’d have an even greater lag if opting for the pressure sensor.
I posted this question but I will ask here too. Why not a manometer controlled make up air system?
Fascinating, I loved the pressure differential tests.
✊🏽
I was seriously impressed with this system as we do a lot of indian cooking at home. But decided to go another route when we enquired about the price for all this installation and equipment
Hey buddy. This video is awesome. I am loving these videos on ventilation. Any guesses at what your pressure would have dropped to if you only had a damper and filter on your makeup system (no fan)?
You can actually calculate and predict that, Joel- check out Broan’s make up air specifier.
@@HomePerformance Thanks brother.
Now for Fantech to make those amends in house and standard on the systems.
Thanks for sharing bus was really interesting and probably the best I’ve seen on make up air.
In Europe we use recirculated fans in most of the super tight houses and apartments. I am not a fan of those, but it’s what you get when you buy brand new homes built to high standards.
Thanks alpha, and those recircs just seem like worshipping energy efficiency at the sacrifice of human health to me.
@@HomePerformance they have decent 2 stage filters but are a lot of effort to maintain and can only do them with electric hobs
I live in canada so Installing a heat recovering system is a must.
Great content. Have you checked Broan’s self-adjusting ERV? They have this “AI Series” that auto-balance house/outdoor pressure. Looks great on paper but haven’t seen any reviews yet
So very blessed to have folks like you to help us with this. This is exactly what I am looking for. What is the name or search term I would use to find the "brain" so I can install it in my new home? please and thank you, sooooooo much.
Thanks for being a fan, Bill!
www.supplyhouse.com/Fantech-MUAS750-Makeup-Air-System-750-CFM does not incled the heater. That’s an add-on.
@@HomePerformance I see. So the FMAC comes with the package.
You’re videos are getting better and better mate. Thanks for sharing all of this.
You showed that when the fan is in low the smoke tends to drift and the capture isn’t great. Does the bowl shape take care of that entirely or does the make up air create an air curtain to funnel the smoke back to the exhaust? I’m trying to identify good placement for that make up air supply.
Thanks Matt! The exhaust hood makers apparently don’t want us doing anything that will affect the airflow around the hood, not sure why. We tried the air curtain idea in our TinyLab, not sure if it’s worth the effort. One problem with ours is that a duct supply 22 feet away along the wall is so awesome that it causes turbulence here.
Many are putting them right under the stove, or in the toe kicks on the cabinets to the sides if that isn't feasible. I've even heard some put them behind the stove. It's interesting that Corbett didn't think it was worth it. There's a design that isn't available commercially but I've been told is the future, where the makeup air actually comes down out of the hood in front making a curtain there, the air swirls across the cooktop and up the back to exhaust.
The research on the dangers of cooking fumes is fairly new and most are just starting to learn that it's really about health, not about pulling the grease and fumes away. I'm expecting a lot more innovation in this area over the next few years. I'm tempted to put in something cheap for now and wait for technology to improve.
@@HomePerformance I would like to understand this. My only reason for considering a insert is to make a good capture area around it which most hoods don't have (especially lower cfm ones).
Great demo and detailed explanation.
Thanks Squeek
Great video and by far the most advanced makeup air system I’ve seen. My first thought though is how to ensure there is no unwanted air infiltration through the ducts going to outside while the system is off. Essentially, there are two big holes to the outside that could let unwanted air in while the system is off. Are you blower door testing after the install of both vent and makeup air systems to ensure no leakage?
Thanks! Butterfly damper in the exhaust, mechanical damper in make up duct. No leakage when it’s off.
I chuckled at around 15:24 in the video, when you ramped up the range hood and a little piece of a leaf sucked in under the door. Kinda underscores the pressure differential.
Wooow! Every detail thought through and applied in the best form possible. Amazing.
I live in a country where having ventilation in the kitchen consist of buying expensive ( loud 🥵) ventilator, fixing it over the stove, omitting the pipe.... Really...
Don't you just love when all house smells of fried onion ? Or something burned. Or food in general.
I don't.
What country, Cesur? Glad you found us
Amazing video - exactly what I was looking for. Now you need a chiller next to that heater for climates in 110+ degree weather! ;) cheers!
Haha, and a dehumidifier
@@HomePerformance I'm planning on using a heat-pump water heater in a conditioned mechanical room; it's a big room with enough space. I'm concerned about the room getting too cold, considering this make up air method for the winter time when I'd want to vent outside of the mechanical room. I do like that it dehumidifies - would the mechanical room get too cold from a HPWH?
Doubtful- but you should be able to find the btu suck on those and calculate to be sure
Thanks for these videos, they are really great. We are planning to put in the Fantech solution, however we wont be putting in the MUAS with a heater as the outside temp is typically greater than 26C. Our kitchen is only around 800 cubic feet. I notice that most people talk about using the under cabinet toekick space for the Make up air input. With the layout in our kitchen it is a lot easier for us to install the Make up air input higher up the wall, around 11ft above the floor, is there much downside to this compared to using the under cabinet toe kick area?
Thanks again for all the information on this subject and the Fantech products, our builder has no idea about this stuff.
Great to hear, FD, and 11 ft up is perfect, actually better since the makeup air can mix before touching any surfaces. Will do s vid about this once I’m done editing our TV show and I get my life back.
Thanks for the thorough explanation of your system. Did you choose to install a damper on the ducting to the wall mount exhaust fan? I'm also considering the Fantech RVF 10 remote blower but noticed it doesn't have a damper and was curious if you opted for an additional component.
Yes- Fantech has a butterfly damper, it’s installed right after the elbow
Thank you for the video. Inspirational and helped me solve my MUA system design. That Fantech fan is neat... matching what is needed and as you noted has a flaw. I think the only way you can fix this problem is to upgrade your ERV with automatic balancing system... which also would solve the radon negative pressure issue. I forget who made this system... Matt Risinger made a video on this auto balancing ERV. Where can I buy that manometer you have? Looking at Amazon for affordable units... wasn't sure if that is similar to what you used.
I'm doing a video on that 'auto-balancing' concept soon, I'm not sure it's more than hype. Our ERV blows 150 CFM max, and the kitchen hood is 600 cfm. No way it could come close to balancing a kitchen hood, especially one as big as ours.
@@HomePerformance I don't know about kitchen blower... but more so for radon blower that caused your constant vacuum. Kitchen blower MUA issue is more of the Fantech trigger sensitivity issue... for this, I can only think of a separate 6" mechanical damper MUA to solve this issue. With this additional setup, whenever kitchen fan is on, the 6" MUA damper is opened and it work independent of Fantech MUA you have. Another thought I had was that if you have active ERV, why do you need the radon mitigation fan? Theoretically, radon would never build up with constant exhaust and fresh air intake. At the very least, you don't need as much of vacuum. You would have to monitor radon level with radon meter to verify. I would just vent out basement/crawlspace with low power timer exhaust fan. This is getting long but I have 1200CFM kitchen fan and old house so you can imagine how difficult it is to figure out a way to put in MUA with sleek setup.
Great overview thanks
Happy to buddy
New to channel, great video. Installing a 900 cfm rangehood for a high Btu pro-style range and looking for make-up air solutions. My early 1990's house is in San Francisco area near the bays is not very tight, but planned window and siding replacement with full sheathing and house wrap would make it much tighter. Outdoor temperatures are very moderate (no AC) and bugs, pollens and dust are not severe but occasionally there is wildfire smoke and ash.
Your digital manometer is showing -4 pascals or -0.015 inches of water with everything except radon fan disabled. This is an extremely low pressure differential in my engineering experience but I don't deal with ventilation. How much air infiltration do you estimate you are getting in your new, extra tight house? How much in my 1990, 1700 sq. ft. house?
This is so over the top ! Wild
Thank you
I've just recently discovered the channel, love these videos with all of the details, explanations, and great tips.
I was wondering, why did you opt to get that resistive heater, instead of going multi-head with your ducted heatpump system?
I'm designing now myself the HVAC solution for my future home, and will probably go for a VRF system, so I'm wondering if I'm missing the advantage of a resistive heater over a heatpump in a makeup air line.
Ineresting q- I don’t know if there’s a head that would fit in an 8” duct, or if you could get the temp rise on a heat pump. Imagine trying to get 20 degree F air to come to 65 while it’s moving through the duct...
Corbett is right. When we designed this system, it was a big math problem to get that air to temp in ONE pass. If you consider that your normal system gets multiple passes at the air, this MUAS only gets one shot. And with 400 to 1,200 CFM of air volume, it means it's moving pretty fast too. So, unless you grossly oversize the VRF head, it likely would not have the raw BTUs to get the air up to temp. Air volume is much more inconvenient to route than liquid volumes of water, like in plumbing. But it is as essential since we breathe far more air than we ever consume in water in a day. Anyhow, hope that helps answer the question. Maybe as VRF tech advances, they'll figure out higher efficiencies to combat the physics. Cheers. Phil
@@mysunnyjim Another crazy idea but what if the ducting was located near the water heater. A small hot water loop is connected to a heat exchanger in the duct and a recirculating pump is triggered when the blower fan is energized. Within 2 seconds 120F water is running through the heat exchanger. You already have the hot water present.
You should try this stuff, Joseph, much better than me just telling you. But to get enough hot water pipes in there to raise the temp 45 deg in one pass, you would constrict the airflow massively. Thin electric resistance wires still win.
@@HomePerformance You may be right. However, the experiment on UA-cam by desertsun02 ua-cam.com/video/ndteW4GuyuQ/v-deo.html uses an 8 inch x 8 inch water-to-air heat exchanger, a small pump, hot water essentially from the water heater, and a small fan. I don't have the data for the pressure drop and air flow rate for the experiment. My sense is that this experiment shows hot water can efficiently raise the room temp air to 120F. Thanks for the videos.
This was so helpful! Thank you, Corbett! We're building with SIP's (modular), so this house will be thermally very sound. We live in SW Australia, so no freezing here, but annual humidity averages around 72% (and it can get reasonably hot in summer and a bit cool in the winter), so an EVR is in order. What about cooling in summer? Can you pair an EVR with a ducted reverse (heating/cooling) air-con system and maybe some floor heat in the bathrooms, or is this overkill? Can the same ducting service both the air-conditioner and the EVR? What's wrong with installing a small venting window near the exhaust fan in the kitchen (like under it)? I was told that bathroom fans aren't necessary with an EVR system. I'd still like to have them. Your thoughts? Finally, with the clothes dryer, ours is a condensing dryer so it's not vented to the outside. Would this work with a EVR? Love this topic!
Hi Gloria- sounds like you might actually enjoy a one-hour consultation about your home- this is a bit much to tackle in comments. If you'd like to have a deep discussion so you can get a crystal clear understanding of all of this, book an appointment here:
buildingperformanceworkshop.com/video-consulting
Gloria, how did you get on with your SIP build and what company did you source them from? We are in WA and thinking about the same building technique. Did you go OSB or cement sheet SiPs?
Re your question - you need three systems:
AC to circulate air internally to the right temp
ERV to bring fresh air in and stale/damp air out
Kitchen hood and makeup air
Great video. There seems to be somewhat confusion about the installation of makeup air units. Lets say in hot climates such as Florida or during the summer in the NE, if the unit injects hot exterior air into the kitchen, the temperature in the room may increase to uncomfortable levels. What would then be the proper installation in this scenario? How do you condition this exterior air prior to dump it inside. Inject the air into the HVAC closet where the A/C handler is located? TY.
In commercial kitchens the standard practice is to install a separate a/c system to just that area because it is a dedicated heat source. The other option, and more practical for a residential application, is to turn your thermostat for your a/c system from auto to on. The furnace fans runs continuously redistributing the heat load throughout the house but diluting it with the whole house volume.. Eventually your house will warm up past the thermostat setting and energize the a/c. Keep in mind that you only cook for relatively short durations compared to.a commercial kitchen. When done with the exhaust system turn your fan switch back to auto, unless you want continuous circulation. It's not perfect, but more cost effective than a separate sparsely used dedicated a/c wall hung split system.
Corbett, I'm working with Broan on a design for the house you tested for us. I'm concerned about bringing in moist air that can condense on the surfaces when it first comes into the home. In your home, you are bringing moist air through the cabinets and across wood floors. Is this something you recommend after trying this out for a year or so?
The under counter make-up air is absolutely genius! Wish I could turn back time on my kitchen remodel and bring it in there, rather than as an air curtain in the hood itself.
Ooh, interesting- you actually have it in the hood itself? Please share how exactly that works and why you don’t like it! The under-cabinet solution has its flaws as well, which I’ll address soon in a new vid.
@@HomePerformance I liked your ability to control building static pressures with your MUA system. You are getting close to a DOAS unit there, and had it been paired with a system OTHER than a kitchen exhaust, could have been tied into an ERV. There, I love the idea of bringing that air in to the baseboard diffusers or strategic locations as an economizer and maintaining slightly positive pressures (via a static pressure transducer) throughout the seasons, regardless of your various exhaust loads (shower rooms, radon systems, kitchens, baths, decorative fireplaces, etc.)
why don't you like the air curtain in the hood?
@@bigneilh it is actually working out fine. I’ve had damper failures, before I installed the Belimo. Overall, it’s a great system. I am just thinking that if my makeup air was within 12 inches of the floor I might get a better natural convection current. But the cabinetry couldn’t take that type of exposure!
@@bigneilh when built into the hood, the air largely short-cycles at the top of the air steam. The evacuation efficiency off the cook surface drops dramatically. However, you can dramatically improve the air flow of hood supply with nozzles, like some commercial kitchens do.
The toe kick inlet is a good idea, as it keeps the sheet in close. I like the idea of having some the inlet to the sides of the range (say 3 - 4 ft over) in a cabinet plenum (from semi-conditioned space). The better you shape the air stream, the less air stream that you need. If you can evacuate better than 85% with 400cfm, your life will be a lot easier than using 60 or 1200 cfm and needing to heat and dehumidify it.
I would not heat the air stream of the make up air if at all possible. if nearly 100% of it goes out the exhaust in the balanced system (slight negative pressure as you have), you are totally throwing money away. To avoid condensation, use insulated ducts. In this situation (and without a inline heater), the toes will get cold. In my side cabinet duct version, they do not, but the air stream capture ratio per CFM is not as good as it is here, unless there is one on each side of the range.
Excellent, could you please make Part 2 after you made the changes LEDs etc. Thank you!!
Kitchen Ventilation System Inspection 3 YEARS IN: Under-Counter Make Up Air & Greasy Duct Silencer
ua-cam.com/video/u2oaefSPdyU/v-deo.html
Now that you are a few years in, have you ever looked at the silencer to see if it got dirty? It looks like the internal design is a type of mesh, and any grease particles not trapped by the grease baffles might like to get stuck in there? A silencer does seem like a great addition to a range hood, but I'm a little wary about potential for grease buildup - hopefully unwarranted.
Corbett, thanks for putting this together. I’m starting to do a kitchen remodel and am currently starting to address the issues around ventilation systems and make-up air. I believe you said that your home is in the Atlanta, GA area. My home is in one of the northern suburbs of Atlanta, and I have some questions about your installation. How did you calculate your ventilation requirements? Where did you get the make-up air system? Aren’t you concerned about needing to condition the make-up air during the summer (humidity control)?
I have the same question, as I'm in Austin, TX and can imagine on a hot humid day, it wouldn't be very nice to have all that hot outside air blowing on your feet. Most of these MUA systems seem to focus on not bringing cold winter air in, but seem to not handle hot summer air....
Any thoughts?
Ventilation reqs are ASHRAE-62.2, make up system is from Fantech, and it would be better to dump air at ceiling or high wall where it won’t blow on any surfaces or people. Happy to consult with anyone who needs more specific coaching at:
buildingperformanceworkshop.com/video-consulting
Hello. I really enjoyed the video - thank you! While you mentioned this is the Cadillac of kitchen exhaust setups (and it's probably too sophisticated for my home), I have a specific question for you with respect to reaching a similar operating result. I live in an area with hot + humid extremes, and I was wondering if you think a similar result can be accomplished with an (oversized?) ERV system? While one of your concerns for incoming air was the chill, I'd be hesitant to flush my kitchen with very warm + humid air but see no easy way to mitigate that with a setup similar to the one you've built. I am committed to building a hood exhaust system, as you've done, with a remote fan and large ducts, and the Fantech website + offerings are great - thanks for sharing that resource with us! Thank you for your time.
Thank you Troy, and the short answer (which I’ll expound upon in a future vid) is no- our home’s ERV, for example, only runs 130 cfm continuously, and the kitchen hood is 600. Can’t even get close. Also, if you do it right, the make up air is like a belt sander, coming in and going straight to the exhaust again. No way to dehumidify several hundred CFM of flow in one pass either, though you could try.
@@HomePerformance exactly correct. and for that reason, don't heat that air stream either, just use a slightly insulated duct to keep the outside from condensing and causing an issue. Also, try to get by with 300-400 cfm with a dialed in air stream / fume hood. Great video!
Wow, that's pretty slick! Thanks for the info on the grease catcher, might go with a commercial hood for that reason. You've seen my set up, do you think 550 cfm's would be to much for my kitchen?
Thanks Carla- for your kitchen (like any) all the other factors like location, duct run, size of cooktop etc will matter. If we need to stick with your current cooktop location we can make it work, but we should find out how airtight your rugged rural digs are before deciding on such a complex system.
@@HomePerformance Good point. I did get a nice, quiet bathroom fan installed already!! Slowly making progress..
NICE! Not as hard to get ahold of supplies up there as I feared.
awesome video here! thanks. for the informative content. I learned quite a bit here. How would you deal with a hot and humid climate like Houston? The makeup air would introduce a lot of hot and humid air correct?
YES, but still a good idea- just introduce the warm moist air into the room where it won’t blow on any surfaces or people.
@@HomePerformance is there another way to temper the hot humid make-up air?
Not with that much airflow- only industrial applications maybe
Great vid. Did you consider a ductless system (no exhaust to the outside) but with a built-in carbon filter, in order to keep the house airtight even when cooking?
Thanks for following, and no, I didn’t consider that for even a minute, and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone else either.
@@HomePerformance 😲
Corbet, I'm not sure how you have the system wired, but an obvious solution would be to wire up a rocker switch before the exhaust fan potentiometer that would send power to both that potentiometer and to the brain of the makeup air system telling it to open the damper and turn on the fan. The speed of the exhaust fan would then be controlled by the potentiometer like it is now, and the speed of the makeup air fan would be controlled by the brain the same way it is now. This would solve both the negative pressure problem since there wouldn't be a delay to the makeup air fan turning on, and it would solve the problem of not knowing if the potentiometer was all the way off as you would have an on/off switch before it. You can even find some with lights to indicate that they are switched on pretty cheaply. Hope this helps.
Thx RJ
hi I am redoing my kitchen and will be adding a microwave and oven apart from where the top stove and range hood will be located. do you have any info on the best way to prep for this remodel. currently I have just a hood exhaust on the roof. Thanks Great video on air quality,
Hello, great video. Thank you.
We just installed inline exhaust fan for our kitchen. Its installed in the attic, in the winter it gets -40, do i need to insulate the fan? thank you
Yes, I would insulate the whole system in the attic if feasible.
Did you make the filter box for the makeup side, or just buy one? Are they cheap? Looking great, dude.
Thank you Seth- it’s from Fantech too. Not expensive.
Great video! I have a question though. Don't you worry about exhaust fan start to condense some water on it and freeze when the temperature is is cold outside and in theory might break the fan plates
Thanks, and no it’s not a worry in this case- keep it in mind for Alaska though
Great information. How do I approach a custom home builder to find out their level of knowledge on Indoor Air Quality without insulting them?
I’d say don’t worry too much- if they’re easily insulted by questions, they might be the type to walk off the jobsite when things actually get stressful. You can assume most builders know little about this- only product-based knowledge at best. What you want to know is whether they’re open minded and interested in trying new things- that’s gold.
Crobett, in your construction video with the Fantec rep I thought the control sequence was to use a differential sensing transducer for a whole house pressure sensing which gave the added benefit of energizing the MUA system when ever your house went negative by other means such as the cloths dryer being used. Why the change to a dedicated application? Was there a major cost difference?
You’re right- but there was no cost difference to upgrade to a heat pump water heater, which has no exhaust system. So this is the only one-way fan in the house.
I watched the video on the Miele washer and dryer.Very interesting in this app!ication. They are very expensive but when you take into account the effects of drawing your house into a negative pressure with a vented traditional dryer, it balances the ROI. One note: these drivers are dehumidifiers, not really heat pumps because there is no reversal of refrigerant to make it heat or cool. Thus, the tray of water removed from the laundry that must be emptied. Thanks for the reply. I learned something today from you.
Perfection 🥰
Fascinating info but is this for extreme temperature differences from winter to summer. In California I have never seen anything to this extreme and expense for practical purposes.
How well have the Fantech hood insert baffle filters captured grease? Since you've been using this system for a few years already, can you see any grease buildup in the duct or in the silencer when you look up into the duct through the range hood? I'm about to move forward with the Fantech range hood insert and remote EC inline fan for our kitchen remodel.
Still watching but... I would think the make up air controller is looking at a static ( "wc or cfm ) setpoint from the hood prior to running. Since it is a reactive part of the system it is meant to be delayed. Commercial versions of this utilize a temp sensor to initiate then cfm or static to determine speed if it is a multispeed fan which most are. I'm sure you can login to the controller and change the setpoint. The MAU could also be looking for a fan proof prior to running. Likely a combination of things lol but great stuff! Found you by investigating what I need to upgrade my range.
Humidity control outside the box; Early HVAC, in large industrial applications, the equipment was installed to protect the electrical and computer control systems, not personal comfort. This was often with elaborate filtration to eliminate contaminates from the intake air that could set up corrosion on terminals and circuit boards causing unexpected premature failures. The HVAC control software typically chilled the air to 55 degrees to condense the moisture for removal. The discharge air was then reheated using electric duct heaters at locations where personnel were located or to maintain a constant temperatures at critical equipment locations. Given the efficiencies of todays HVAC systems and available zoning controls, this might be a possible remedy to the temporary high air flow rate of makeup air when operating a kitchen ventilation hood during high humidity conditions, especially during holidays and special occasions when the meal is "the icing on the cake" or gathering.
Great information. :)
Clothes dryer use would kick on 'make up' air system?
HRV is 1:1 fresh/stale, won't make up exhausted air?
Thanks D- no, you can’t perfectly equalize pressures from multiple exhausts with the same make up air system (why we chose a heat pump dryer), and no, the ERV can’t help with it either (intentionally), too small and too balanced.
How long can a vents rise be? Great knowledge too!
Only as tall as your walls, Marlin. ;) Maybe I need you to clarify your question.
Awesome video, just wondering how much should I budget for a system like this. Can you share?
Depends on whether you really need an active make up system, or can get by with passive. $3000 for one, $150 for the other. Hood liner $700 not counting enclosure to make it look nice. Maybe $4500 in parts for this exact setup, plus labor.
This is great technology that you’ve created so much respect. I have a feeling you have a cage somewhere in your house that has a bunch of lost kids and your training them to do whatever you’re planning to do in the future lol
I had been wondering if you tested the noise levels with and without the silencers, but I just caught your comment that you found them "kind of important." Good to know I'm adding another line item to the HVAC-D budget. Good for us, anyway. Bank account's begging me to stop, but what does it know.
Haha, tell your bank account it will see the difference in your health bills and the amount of eating out and vacation cravings that will fade.
Random Question... How do you like the induction cooktop so far?
Your hood liner, what are those baffles brand? Are they from fantech and do they help with supporting the weight for the hood liner too or is it just cosmetic to catch the cooking exhaust only?
The baffles are for catching grease- VERY important. This is a Fantech brand hood liner.
What if... the knob on the hood turned on the make up air (1st) and the "brain" in the basement turned on the hood fan. Would it instead of depressurizing the house the makeup air would pressurize it until the hood fan caught up to balance the system?? Still not a "Perfect" application but temporary positive pressure is some better than depressurization right?
I’m bidding on the install of a new under cabinet range hood over an induction cooktop. There’s a convenient hollow soffit over the upper cabinets that will allow a path to run a duct to a new wall vent cap outside the kitchen. The customer’s damaged existing JennAir has that vented, downdraft system built into it. It is ducted straight down into the basement ceiling, from thee to the outside. Researching UA-cam about this stuff alerted me to this make up air concept. It occurred to me that the old downdraft system ducting might be able to be repurposed as make up air intake. Thoughts?
Yeah man sounds good for an active make up air pathway BUT I’d clean it good or replace ducts
Great video, I have very little draw on my fan and it is very loud, it is a Thermador Professional 22 years old. any comments please? also vented thru a 6 inch louvered vent running about 10 feet to outdoors. is there a way to test the strength or efficiency?...Is 6 inch vent ok? and Is your oven below the range vented too? help!, lots of questions.
Great info, how did you find the qualified installers for Fantech? or did you do it all yourself? did you extend the fantech capabilities to the vents in the bathrooms or other areas of the house?
Did this all ourselves- and no, the bathroom vents run to the ERV.
Great Stuff
👍🏽
I appreciate all the information. It’s great and thorough.
I also love that you don’t clutter up the info with distracting music or “Hey Guys…” greetings, but you just start talking about the topic. Would that all UA-camrs follow your fine example.
However, that two-camera cinematography gimmick you’re using is a superfluous distraction. It’s gilding the lily.
I really appreciate that you are getting into the nitty gritty of exhaust fans, something almost no one gives any thought to, despite its paramount importance to the function of the kitchen - and the house as a whole.
How often do you have to maintain the intake filter? Is it cleanable or must it be replaced?
Is this ductwork also for bathroom exhaust fans? If so, how does the ductwork know where to direct the make up air? (wouldn't matter for bathroom but would for kitchen).
I wonder if a further refinement could be putting the makeup vent on the countertop behind the stove, or some kind of in/around-stove updraft table arrangement. This could allow you to drop the need to condition the cold air hitting your bare feet while cooking, and with just two "gulps" (5:50) wasted, even the passive house guys (who just do recirculating for grease and let a kitchen mounted hrv intake deal with IAQ) would have to take notice. In any case I recommend steel toe boots. I wouldn't want to drop a cast iron wok on my toe!
He doesn't have dedicated bathroom exhaust fans.
Hey Jason- the manufacturer will ask you not to place the makeup air outlet close enough that it might screw up the exhaust airflow pattern. We actually did something pretty elegant in the tinylab, but performance-wise 600 cfm delivered that way would be insane in a home setting.
ua-cam.com/video/Xy4OvjEd3IE/v-deo.html
Would it be possible to wire the whole range hood fan (and in turn the makeup air) to come on automatically when the induction cooktop is on and turn off when that is off. That way, there is no forgetting to turn it off (or even on)?
I suppose you could, but def not my expertise.
What is actually signaling the make up air to turn on? A pressure switch or a current sensing relay?
Current sensor. We think the low limit on the transducer might be too high.
Seems like an ERV would be most efficient along with a few cheap smart pressure sensors inside and outside the house
Do you know the model number of that filter box? My ERV is MERV 13 but I want a box in line that is MERV 15-16 for the month of wildfire season. Having trouble finding a basic box without a fan for 8" ducts.
Problem solved, Cindi:
acinfinity.com/air-filter-boxes/
Why aren't the fans wired together? When one turns on, so does the other? I assume there is a sensor in the makeup air telling it to turn on.
Or is the delay just the amount of time it takes the damper to open?
The system isn't designed to be activated that way, unfortunately. Yes, the delay is built into the reaction sequence.
What are your thoughts on the makeup air system bringing in hot, humid air in the Summer months? Should we be leaning on our whole house dehumidifier to handle the excess humidity from the unconditioned air coming in or something else?
Watch this, Marc:
3 Rules for Make Up Air Systems: Planning Home Ventilation that Performs
ua-cam.com/video/36eMZNyAlGY/v-deo.html
If the makeup system dumps air close enough to the exhaust hood, won't most of the hot, humid air be immediately exhausted? How much of the makeup air "spills out" into the rest of the house in a well designed system?
I have a air system on the back wall where my stove is and I like to put in a stove hood under my cabinet is that’s a good thing to do I need help please and I already bought the under cabinet hoop from the Home Depot, I love your Channel but I just don’t know what’s to do at this time too save the heat and Grease messing up my cabinets
Hi Ann- not sure if I can help you with much long distance, but I do consult via video for clients all the time. If you’d like to book an appointment:
buildingperformanceworkshop.com/video-consulting
I've been looking at these Fantech products also, although not in such an elaborate way :-) I expect my home to be very tight, and will have a Zehnder Q600. They told me that if my fan wasn't too high CFM, then the Zehnder would compensate by temporarily boosting it's intake / cutting it's exhaust. What do you think about that? I was thinking of getting a 400 cfm fan and seeing how it works before doing a make-up air system.
Also, IMO capture efficiency of the hood is more important than CFM but unfortunately that is not published by manufacturers yet. Are you planning to build your hood down below the liner so there is a larger capture area?
We’re building the hood now, Cindi- and fyi I can’t imagine Zehnder is recommending an ERV that’s anywhere near 400 cfm, so I don’t know how much good its compensating attempt will do.
@@HomePerformance Right, I probably wouldn't want to do 400. But technically maybe could; the Q600 is rated for 353 cfm and has extra margin. It was originally going to be a Q450 but then we added the crawlspace (conditioned "short basement" like yours.
@@HomePerformance Can't wait to see the hood! It's so cool that you're doing all this right before I am :-)
Whoa, that’s a lot of power for a ventilator!
👍🏽👍🏽
our teacher has a new obsession every three years.
how do you pick a sweet balance between hood size and cfm in the hood? Your hood is 18 in deep I believe. Would a deeper larger hood allow to decrease a bit the CFM without compromising the ability of the hood to capture smoke and at the same time decrease energy penalty due to makeup air to conditioning? Would be cool to have a modeling tool.
The hood should be as deep as the cooktop cabinet (24”). And wider by 6-12”. Get a multi-speed fan so you can pull only as much as you need, but size for 100 cfm per 10kBtu.
@@HomePerformance agreed but does Fantech sell 24 inch deep hoods? Otherwise I love their systems
I have a very similar Inline air booster, but mine went out and I'm trying to find who can repair/replace this in Dallas TX? Can you help with this? Who does these kind of repairs (A/C, Electrician???)?
That’s a challenge for sure. I’d seek out both, sorry no leads to offer at the moment.
What did you do for your clothes dryer? Bath vent?
Heat pump by Miele. Baths go thru ERV.
Are these fantech products available in the USA? Their “where to buy” map is completely empty on their website
Yes. You can get their stuff through distributors like SupplyHouse, etc.
Funny how everyone wants a 1200 CFM exhaust hood in a old leaky house and can't find it in the budget for a make up air set up. I just cringe Everytime I see one now. Told a customer of mine let's open a window and put a box fan in it on a summer day. Well that's basically what your doing everytime you turn that thing on. It actually worse as where in at it's usually 120 plus degree attic air infiltrating the home. But hey I think we need a bigger AC this one struggles all the time. Great videos and hopefully things get better with education and time
Agreed, Jon!
How loud is the Fantech exterior fan when you're outside next to it? Could you take a video standing next to the Fantech exterior fan while it's running? I have concerns about how loud the fan may be for our neighbors.
you have any videos of outdoor hood for grills under cover roof
I will have one as soon as I can get my ass in gear. Broan outdoor hood and gooseneck rooftop termination in hand. Too many tasks on the list.
I guess I am a bit simple minded. I would just wire the vent fan and make up air fan together so they both come on at the same time. Seems that if they are indeed running at the same speed they would be just like a balanced erv. I am sure you know what your parameters are but I also know one thing for sure. Wired as I mentioned are not the experiment you are running but my parameters likely are $500 less than yours
Good point, Steve- I’m asking Fantech why not
@@HomePerformance Likely because I am just a simple country boy who thinks. KISS LOL Bet is no one asked them
If there are multiple exhaust points/fans, you'd want the makeup air fan to be the sum of them.
@@jasonjayalap That goes without saying, but my comment was more about the auto part of waiting to get enough vacuum happening to turn on the blower side. I am going out on a limb and wondering if you caught that part
@@stevepailet8258 Oh I thought you were talking about the brain part. That's what I got stuck on.
I'm just a lay person on the topic but I'm confused. Wouldn't it be ideal to have the make up air NOT dependent on the wall-mounted range hood fan speed setting, but have it tracking the actual kitchen air pressure? As other devices can influence the pressure, you could set a threshold to prevent continuous usage and/or have that system not function at all unless the range hood fan is on at any setting. You mention that the fans can be speed controlled by adjusting the voltage so I wonder if this is better or not than your current methodology. I'm also wondering if this would address air flow fluctuations as the system gets impeded by the filter(s) or just variability in the fans themselves. I wonder about real-world usage such as having the windows open too. Lastly, isn't makeup supposed to be closer to the cooking area so that cooler air will help 'lift' the warmer cooking air up into the exhaust route? When I worked in a restaurant, the make up air was flowing directly down onto the outer cooking area. It seems your make up air is solely addressing the pressure differences so I'm wondering what performance hit is sacrificed and how much aerosol particles escape the exhaust path. Again, not an expert or anything just curious.
Hey Douglas- you’re right, that WOULD be better. But there is no micromanometer on the market that can reliably and affordably control for it. Feasibility.
@@HomePerformance What about two or more of the BMP180 modules (
No, you’d need to measure second to second with a pressure sensor that can tell the difference in 1 Pascal increments, 1/250th of an inch of water column, 0.0001 psig, 1e-5 Bar.
Thank you very much. I wanted an Indian ,Chinese , Mediterranean kitchen cooking, it’s important for me to remove smell, fat , very important noise less or scilent
100%
How did you get a manometer reference hose to outside without creating an air leak?
Weatherstripping around the door.
@@HomePerformance I'm curious if the hose got pinched, showing a false vacuum in the house. Opening a door or window to watch the house go to atmospheric pressure would be a cool test to prove/disprove this theory.
A pinched hose doesn’t behave that way- it would be a much higher pressure, and generally keeps climbing.
I see what you did there, Corbett. An entire video about a thing - just for us to get a shot of your adjustable creeper in the crawlspace.
Which we obviously now all need one of. Well played, Sir!
Haha my evil plot. Thx Jeffrey
My Wolf exhaust hood lets more fumes escape than it catches. My five year old home is not particularly airtight. Opening a window does not improve the air flow at the cooktop.
I bet it’s loud too- very likely blocked or malfunctioning. Testing will tell.
@@HomePerformance Not loud. It works for the back burners. Not for the front.
@rogerhodges7656 interesting. Bet it’s not doing what it’s designed to though
Is there a condensate / grease drain out the back of the liner?
Also assuming you did your research on the duct mastic/sealant….. is that the ChemLink stuff?
Mastic is R&D #6, no drain, just grease trap. You clean the panels regularly.
Did you ever successfully build the LED indicators for the MAU and Exhaust Fan?
No, that project fell low on my list of many many many others
@@HomePerformance I was thinking if you didn't have time or energy to add an LED, you could place a brightly colored linear sticker or marker line on the knob so that you could tell from far away that it's on or not by whether the sticker is facing forward. That doesn't really provide a solution for the MUA indicator light though.
BTW I was surprised to hear that there was a delay/pressure-threshold to turn on the MUA; looking at the controller wiring diagram, it looked like the exhaust fan is hardwired directly to the controller via current transducer; I imagined it would be instant unless your setup is using some sort of pressure switch kit to activate the MUA.
Yes, it should be instantaneous, but it’s not. No pressure switch.
@@HomePerformance I'm sure you've probably tried this already but have you tried "re-commissioning" the system? I wondering if maybe the commissioned "LO" configuration is expecting a hair too much current from the exhaust's current transducer at its lowest setting. I'm basing this of the commissioning video: ua-cam.com/video/q6AcaYmKuq0/v-deo.html Where building a passive house and considering Fantech also, at least for the MUA.
Could you tie the kitchen exhaust in with your ERV?
Unfortunately not. Too greasy.
Since the exhaust fan is the controlling fan, couldn’t you wire the system so that the intake fan is the controlling fan instead, therefore temporarily pressuring your house rather than creating a temporary vacuum?
In other words, having the knob turn on the intake first, then having the brains turn on the exhaust second?
Love the system and your amount of detail. Thanks!
Morning! I do similar diagnostics & solutions in Chapel Hill, NC, and I really appreciate the system and your suggestion as to how to solve this last issue without needing to introduce more componentry. Hope it's not too much of a problem getting the wiring reworked.
Thanks guys, that’s a great suggestion
If you had a magnet on that system, you could keep that filter cabinet lid in place better. . .
HOOOOLY CRAP, I FOUND SCOTT!