I'm glad that you addressed the whole "brutally honest" part, because it was the first thing on my mind when OP felt the need to highlight that. Using "brutal honesty" as like a badge of pride is a red flag.
amazing how people who are described as "brutally honest" only shit on other people's work without apologizing when someone actually has both negative AND positive things to say, they're just referred to as "honest"
Bro is PAYING to sit at a table that is being run by a DM who blatantly copied Star wars and sprinkled it with some pseudo-magic flavour. Idk but if you are getting paid 150 per SESSION and expect to be praised for your work or not have at least some criticism, that tells a lot more about you than OP and the rest of the table.
@@Owch- That is fair criticism. But the problem tends to be that people who call themselves "Brutally honest" are the kind of people who want to hide behind honesty as a reason to be an outright asshole instead of actually thinking about and presenting their criticism in a constructive and helpful way. It is the difference between a guy pulling his friend to the side to tell him there is a stain on the seat of his pants and standing in the middle of a room and shouting "Hey Steve! looks like you shit yourself!" both are being Honest, but on is 100x Better than the other.
First story: OP is the AH, but not for the reasons he thinks. There were five other players at that game, and OP just focuses on his own disgust about the rehashed Star Wars plot. He paid $25, but so did five other people. At what point did OP ever try to ask anyone else if they felt the same way as him? If six players join, and five players don't complain about the plot, then it's kind of understood that they want to play that plotline.
Honestly I gotta hard disagree with "both people" being the assholes here. I can't possibly imagine what the DM did to make him an asshole, other than I guess not refunding the money. Which, to be quite honest with you, if it were me I would _also_ probably keep brutally honest prick's money and use it to help refund the other 4. Call it the asshole tax.
@@TwighlightLugiamaybe OP should’ve looked into the DM more, maybe seeing what sort of world he was to play in, idk. But if I paid good money to replay a Star Wars movie I’d be pissed too. OP is nta, the DM is an unoriginal loser who shouldn’t be getting paid. He should be banned from the site for not coming up with his own story
@@travishester6859 all you said would be true if the DM was honest about the setting and had not promised an original plot. I don't know if he did or not but judging by his Vader response I assume he did promise an originl plot or at least did not communicate on the subject. (A better response when confronted with the acusation that his red sword wielding Black Knight is Vader is to say that, "yes, he is vaderesque, inspired by Vader but don't you want to play and see what twists I've added?")
My main problem is that they didn't address things w/the DM sooner, & in a much more respectful/mature way. Instead of speaking up right away & simply saying "Hey, from what u just described it sounds like ur just going 2 run us through the plot of Star Wars. That isn't what I was told the game was going 2 b & I'm not rlly interested in that, so I would like 2 just get my money back & opt out of this now." which would have allowed them 2 avoid being bored & dissatisfied w/out making things unpleasant 4 every1, they decided 2 stay in the game just so they could inflict their bad attitude on every1 else. Now, the DM didn't handle things well either, cuz when OP got pissy about the Darth Vader knock off they could have just said, "I'm sorry ur not having fun, but this is what I prepared 4 this. If it isn't ur thing that's totally alright. Why don't I just give u a refund & u can leave?" which would have kept things from escalating as much as they did, but I can also understand the DM losing their cool if OP had been trying 2 derail things & being moody the whole time, which OP kind of implied was the case.
Yeah I got the same vibe when the guy said "I'm the brutally honest one." that to me is code for "I'm the asshole." Even if the game was ripped from star wars directly, honestly if the others were having fun I would say let it be. Maybe some people dream of playing through that exact scenario? The DM gave OP chances to leave if he wasn't having fun and OP stuck around to continuously be a jackass and disruptive to the game rather than be mature and make his grievance known after the session.
Definitely would have made OP look better to just ask for a refund earlier instead of potentially ruining the other players' time. Though DM's stubborn insistence that the campaign is not a rip off Star Wars and the black knight with red sword isn't Darth Vader still looks bad.
I agreed the moment he did the "this is terrorism" crap. I hate seeing that argument. The fortress/Death Star is a valid military target and so is anyone on it.
I honestly doubt OP actually agreed with that argument, just using it to see if the DM is just railroading the paying party into reenacting Star Wars or if alternate paths were possible. Doesn't help that this version may not have established this empire as deserving of overthrowing.@@emberfist8347
Agreed. That OP seemed like a self righteous prick through and through. Only fault I take with the DM is not kicking them sooner to salvage what they could of the session for the rest of the players, and (potentially) for not refunding the $25
Honestly, while recreating Star Wars beat by beat isn't a *great* look for the DM, I believe him when he says OP was completely ruining the game for everyone else. When telling the story, even OP doesn't note that anyone else seemed bored or upset with DM, and even just reading the story OP sounds kind of exhausting.
Considering how OP described himself it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the similarities to star wars were far smaller and further apart than he made it seem
Notice aswell that while its 'ripping off starwars' its doing so in the most vague and broad storybeats ever. This entire thing could be ripping off about 20 different movies/books. Take the darth vader encounter for an example, if it was a rip off of starwars thats where their DM NPC would have engaged darth in order to give them time to flee. Theres no mention of them infiltrating in some sort of vehicle, no mention of Leia and the trash compactor, no mention of the tractor beams needing to be disabled. Instead its "There is a magical weapon in a castle where the princess is being held, she has information on how to destroy the weapon, we must rescue her" and otherwise the motif of black armour and a flaming sword IS WHAT DARTH VADER WAS BASED OFF, not the otherway around. This whole thing strikes me as a reddit troon complaining about nothing and ruining the game for everyone else involved.
8:20 The irony of OP accusing the DM of being the arbiter of fun, while OP is trying to be the arbiter of fun for everyone else at the table, is palpable.
"Take us out on an adventure, Dungeon Daddy!" "Enough! Stop with that nickname or I swear I'll drop the highest level monster I can find in the Waifu Manual on your ass"
That second story with the guy "winning D&D" felt.......off. It had the same vibe as those "and then everybody clapped" stories. Most people aren't just logic'd to silence like that.
Witness testimony is the flimsiest kind of evidence for a reason. A lot of these stories are clearly presented with multiple layers of make up even when the were based on real experiences.
To be fair... the tropes/concepts surrounding the Death Star are pretty fun to use all at once; 1. Enormous superweapon the heroes wanna raid and disable/destroy. 2. Rescue a captive or number of captives. 3. A dangerous enforcer of the Big Bad shows up to stop the heroes. 4. Big explosion.
Too bad the DM sucked nuggets and couldn't figure out a way to turn that into something unique or even remotely transformative. There HAD to be a princess in the dungeon at the fort? There HAD to be a black knight with a red sword? The OP brought up valid points and the DM should've read the room. He was made. The con was discovered. Hell, randomizing it could've been fun. When you want $25 a head, you better be pretty good and not a copy paste jagoff. Everything you said was loose enough that it should be the template for those trying to copy SW. Weapon. Victims/captives. Right hand to or is the BBEG trying to stop you. Big explosion. It's perfect. You can even mix it up a bit and put the explosion first and do a retaliation plot. Anything! This guy was lazy.
As a DM I borrow from many trope/stories. But if you can't even be the least bit transformative in the opening few session of the campaign AND YOU ARE GETTING PAID... Really just fuck right off with that horse shit. I have the Merry Men from Robin hood in my campaign, but trust me it is going to be VERY different when that arc is done, and TBH they were really different in the beginning too!
But then they'd have to come up with their own story line. Yeah they can have it thebstarvwars world and use some of the characters, but like they still then need to make a story. (And whether it is something that might be a fan fiction that fits in between cannon events or as an alt world, he'd also have to decide.
I like how you showed the faults in what the person posting did as well as the dm I noticed a distinct lack in how the other players felt and the player assumed they were speaking for the rest of them Your pizza analogy summed it up fairly well
@@RazzleTheRed1Only instead of getting an immediate refund for the mistake, the people who are fine with Hawaiian have their meal disrupted until the pizzeria throws the disturbance out.
@@starofjustice1 Yea. It's the only reason I'm giving OP any leeway in this. Because yea. It's a 25 Dollars per session game. DM is getting paid 150 Bucks for this. He should have just stood up and asked for a refund once he saw it. This kind of game can be plenty of fun. But you don't expect that from a paid game.
Wait... a D&D campaign that just retells Star Wars. That's the second time a story like this popped up on your channel. Only this DM wasn't even being subtle.
I just like the idea of Star Wars in D&D, basically 2020 and 2021 was the Medieval era of the modern day thanks to the Pandemic and the internet's fascination with coning the term "Bardcore" metal songs made into an old sound, then there was Star Wars and the medieval compositions and Epic medieval remixes that basically almost inspired me to fucking write Star Wars but in Medieval times. Lightsabers would be made from special metal not found on earth but from a comet or meteoroid or something 'mysterious and spacey" that fell to the planet some very long time ago. The Force could be a different form of magic or maybe a divine sense that is only meant for the noble or rich or even the special gifted monks or bad guys. (Jedi or Sith) Do you see where I am going with this? Just listen Battle over Coruscant or some of the others like General Grevious' theme song and you'll know exactly what I mean by what I described; you'll see it too in your minds eye as well. Seeing really is believing, search for the answer within yourself you know it's true.
Or at least if you do recreate the entire movie tell the Players that are paying for your services you are doing so. I'm sure you would find plenty that could have fun with that to.
In a shorter cosmic horror campaign we finished earlier this year, my s/o the DM just straight up used Anton Chigurh as the BBEG. Even recreated a couple scenes directly from the movie. Almost completely unaltered in name, as he changed it to Theodore Chegar. And that campaign _ruled,_ even despite being only about 5 sessions long, we got to close on a really good harrowing note. As for Theodore, he was basically an infant cosmic being who was supposed to be benevolent but was bad at it. Regardless, the success of that campaign probably had to do with the fact that he told us ahead of time. That said, we also are just a trio of people who live together and consider each other family. But still.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING OUT THAT COPYING STORYLINES ISNT A BAD THING, I get so tired of hearing "The Author/Writing Critics" constantly talk about how everything is so unoriginal these days when 9/10 their favorite anime/media is definitely copying an aspect of it from something else.
In this context it's especially funny because Star Wars was very heavily inspired by an old Japanese movie I'm forgetting the name of right now. The things he's mentioning fit better to that story, so it would be on the same level as Star Wars then, not a derivative of it.
No, no, not the GM but an NPC: the totally random guy in the totally random black mask with totally random heavy breathing and totally random red lightsaber.
Remember, there is no barrier for entry to be a "Pro-DM." Anyone can do it and there's no certification they hand out to be recognized as a good DM. This is why, in my shop, the first game is always free. My brother and I run five games a week at our store on a monthly subscription system. But if you're new to the store, we always let you sit down and play without a charge and then you can decide if we're worth your money. I'm proud to say that 95% of the people that come to our tables are back the next week, ready to sign up and put down money.
Does anyone else think dm #2 taught the player nothing? He just punished him, didnt clarify the issue, and just sent him on his merry way to murder hobo again?
If the dude had self awareness he would learn, if not then he's just not going to be a part of it. He essentially kicked him from the group in a very ironic way showing him it was not about winning DnD. If he continues being a murder hobo, it's not the groups problem. They lose a player but they get to continue the campaign
@@blackironslayer7228 the problem is it's hard to self awareness if player is really noob. And he is: be glad to won DnD is sign. So he just might not know what is good or bad, and he just play like he would if it were videogame. Showing consequences is much better way to teach than metagame like "u won, now leave"
@@hasenblake The problem is that it derails the campaign for other players. There are so many other stories where the other players pay for murderhobo choices. The good thing to do would be to be patient and try to teach the new player, but the group has no obligation to do such. Consider for a moment that the DM retcons the npc killed coming back to life and the noobs immediate action is to attempt to murder the npc again.
@@CritCrabtip: use an LUFS meter and get your audio somewhere from -15LUFS to -13LUFS (for UA-cam. Other platforms have different loudness standards). Idk what software you are using, but some programs like Reaper have LUFS normalization that can automatically limit your waveform to the desired loudness level. If your program has LUFS normalization, then be sure to use it. Also, I didn't personally have a problem with the audio level so maybe just ignore everything in this thread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As my creative writing teacher always said: "All the stories have been told. All that matters is how YOU tell it." Stripped down to its core, every story follows one of very few plotlines, but it is your utilization of the tools(tropes) at your disposal that makes your story unique. But you have to actually TRY to tell a unique story; it's not an excuse to just blatantly rip off a popular piece of media and just change up some names.
On the other hand genre bending a popular piece of media is very fun I mean the mere fact that they took a Sci-Fi story and turned it into a fantasy story even if it does have the exact same plot is already different enough that I personally would love it and think it was really cool.
The problem is, that these "rules" are not created and every story ever told was told by these rules. The rules where created by analyzing successful stories and take what all of them have in common. It's like looking for what every apple has in common and then complaining that every(successful) apple that you can create is basically the same. Of course there is a difference between "following the fundamentals" and "a shameless rip off".
That's kinda a tinsy bit of sophistry sprinkled over the truth, which storytellers like to give out rather than explain the fundamental nature of relayed intercorrollated human experiences within a specific cultural conceptual framework. I've started to give it out less lately since people started pretending that 'originality' is literally taking the average of all words on the internet that match a prompt.
@@vampire9545 I say that these few "formulae" are the smallest thing that many "good stories" have in common. Not everything that follows these is good, not everything that is good follows these "formulae". But a Story is more likely to be good, if it does.
5:03 in my last campaign I DMd there was an argument in RP that went on for about 30. It got so intense that I did have to find a spot to break character to make sure that it was actually RP and not the players starting to get upset.
In my group it's so common that once someone from outside got mad at us for acting like that and then we cut rp for a second to tell him "bro what's your problem? we're having fun peacefully over here, just chill already" For outsider must feel like witnessing a massacre but then finding out they all agree to do it for fun, and nobody is actually angry I compare it to a sane person being the crazy one among a bunch of insane people
He really straight up remade a death star xD The flaming sword dude in black armor was just overkill. Also, I think that the person who "Won D&D" was hilarious in that the DM made him feel elated and proud of himself as a roundabout way of kicking him out of the session. Extremely harsh, but if a murderhobo is going to drive a story completely off the rails by killing people soon as they meet them, yeah something has to be done
I would want an information if it was communicated in advance it is going to be a linear story. I would probably try to first stop him and explain to him what he is doing. If he would continue, use the world. He just killed someone, even more so, a nobleman, I am sure there is more than enough methods to explain to him that there is no AI to outsmart, GM is watching and he does have only one life to play with, no save games. I would probably kick him if he would be at the same time causing trouble to the rest of the group, but this just sounds too basic and a bit ... odd. How old was that player? How can you manage to tell someone s/he won DnD and s/he believes it? Some serious groundwork is missing here.
@@5daboz It's like winning GTA Online, you don't. Simple as that and age is but a number it is how the person is mentally or acts and carries themselves. Something something something ego mania I think, perhaps.
Just let them kill two random NPCs, then describe the third one as either one of their childhood friends or a guy you obviously should not mess with, if they still try to, then "roll for initiative" and let them fight against someone 8 lvls above them. Yes, nothing would be worse than turning that murder hobo into Vegeta and your quest giver into Gary fucking Oak
@@5daboz Maybe it'd help to look at the player's motivations. The murderhobo who's just trying to accrue large quantities of powerful gear, or a horde's worth of gold, isn't doing it to pursue some story-based end goal. Killing a nobleman because they might have lots of gold sounds like they're approaching the game like a... game: with points, high scores, and win-conditions. Letting them "win" D&D is intended to reinforce that that's not what this group's about. The noob maybe didn't understand what was going on, and wasn't responding to correction.
IF OP's retelling of the situation is accurate. I notice a suspicious lack of details being given in these supposed copies. The knight has black armour and a flaming sword, bit what is his backstory? His personality? His motivations? The other comparisons are also glossed over and stripped to the superficial similarities. I note a Han Solo expy is also absent. Things can be twisted a lot by biased retellings, and given how the OP behaved and described themself, I don't trust their account to be honest. Ironically, no one is more willing to be dishonest than the "brutally honest" types.
There are really only a few stories, and they've all been told before. Boiled down, they are "Get to the place" (The Odyssey), "Win the heart" (The Iliad), "Get revenge" (Cain and Abel), "Find the thing" (Jason and the Golden Fleece), and "Save the world" (Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure). Yes I stole that from somewhere. The "Hero's Journey" combines many of those threads into a recognizable pattern with little variations.
This reminds me of when I (DM) was trying to do a one shot with me group where they have to save the town from this monstrous pile of flesh I made the mistake of hireing them to "find out what is happening to the missing townfolk" They figured out the monster was eating them and demanded payment without killing the monster. We had a heated debate in character to try and get them to fight the monster. It ended when the Bard tried to get the town motivated to fight for themselves by singing "The Mob Song" from beauty and the beast. I waited until they sang the "Its time to follow meee!" Line to say they successfully inspired the town to follow you into battle against the monster. We still talk about this years later
The proper way to handle noob murder-hobos (i.e. people who are ignorantly ruining the game, not people who are deliberately ruining the game) is to hold them responsible in the game. You attack the Nobel? His bodyguards (oh, you didn't notice his body guards?) attack you and either kill you outright, or capture you and turn you over to the law who puts you on trial and then executes you. Or, you find out that the Nobel is a much higher level character than you and he kills you in self-defense himself. Although the "you won D&D" is funnier, I doubt he learned anything by it -- other than you are kind of a jerk.
If that last story's even real, all that got was a new player chastised from playing the game even if he did self reflect on his behaviour so congrats to that DM I suppose.
This is giving in-game consequences to out-of-game problems. It doesn't "teach the guy a lesson" any more than the whole "you won D&D" does. It just forces the rest of the party to sit through watching their playtime be wasted as the DM focuses on giving consequences to the problem player's actions, at the expense of their fun and storytelling. The best way to handle murderhobos is to pause the game when they try to do something murderhobo-y, tell them that doing so is frowned upon and would cause a domino effect of consequences and derail the plot the rest of the party is pursuing, and that they should play nice and keep the other players' fun in mind, or stop playing. This way you've wasted maybe 5m of everybody's time, not hours or potentially sessions.
@@LizBlizzard How is playing out the results of the character's actions in game, an out-of-game problem? _"It just forces the rest of the party to sit through watching their playtime be wasted as the DM focuses on giving consequences to the problem player's actions [...]"_ What player action are you talking about? I'm talking about what the *character does in game* having *in game consequences.*
@@fred_derf When the player makes their character perform an action that the rest of the party does not want them to perform (such as murderhoboing), that's a problem with the player. The player chose to do an action without considering how it would affect the rest of the party. That's an out-of-character problem. If the entire party (and DM) approves of having the CG Rogue steal something, but they fail their check, and they need to deal with the consequences as a team, that's good and positive in-character behavior that warrants in-character consequences. Same if the entire party approves of the Paladin smiting that one asshole noble who's been oppressing the town, knowing full well that'll make them wanted criminals, and so on. The problem with a murderhobo is that they're controlling their characters, and making them perform actions that go against what the rest of the party wishes to happen in-game. That's, again, an out-of-character problem. The character does not exist without the player, the character does nothing without the player, so it cannot be a "character problem."
I once ran a game that was just the Warcraft setting. While everything was set in motion to follow the plot of the games, the players had full agency in what to do. A couple players knew exactly what was going to happen and exploited it by trying to derail things. Little did they know that I had planned on that and they now had a great time in this alternate timeline of the warcraft universe. Specifically, they killed Arthas before he became the Lich King and took his runeblade. The PC that took the blade failed a check and was now convinced he needed to go to Northrend to save the spirits of his ancestors and started taking Death Knight levels (homebrew class). Sadly the game fizzled out before they ever got that far. I think something similar should have occurred here. The player knows this is Star Wars. Why not use that to his advantage? Convince the rest of the party to turn against the rebels, maybe work with the DM to become an imperial informant, maybe take the rebels' focus elsewhere. There is so much to be done without just whining. Though to be honest, the DM should've just said "lol yeah, I'm basing this off of Star Wars" and be fine with the players trying to take their own route in the story.
That second story DM sounds like a complete tool. I can't imagine their "congratulations" being spoken in anyway but spiteful sarcasm. And the player was kicked out?! I expected a wholesome resolution where the DM ends the bit by making the player promise to change. Instead, they just kicked out the noob in the most childish, kids' show way imaginable. Also, the first story's OP is a total dick. Some snarky teen who thinks he's the only one who caught on to the obvious copycatting. No one else cared to complain, he should've let it be or leave without making such a scene
6:15 too true, it's face-palming how often people try to say they're a critic but never actually offer any criticism whatsoever just trash talk and bad-mouthing. That said, OP is totally the asshole, DM may have been unoriginal, but he wasn't the bad guy imo. People together could have said they didn't want to play it and ask for a refund but my OPs statement he's the only one that was throwing a fit and ruined the mood for everyone invovled.
I'd say DM's stubborn vehement refusal to admit he's ripping off Star Wars for a group who's paying him $125 makes him bad here, though OP isn't much (if at all) better. We don't know if the other player's actually liked the campaign or not, just that they said nothing. DM seemed more concerned with not being called unoriginal than OP ruining everyone's time complaining.
@@ArcCaravan while I'm sure he was annoyed by that the impression im getting is he just wanted to play the game, which he was being paid to do. I really can't find any fault in the DM here. Even copying Star Wars isn't a justification for the OP's antics.
@@gorgeouszan If DM was honest about having players pay for a blatant Star Wars knockoff, I'd be more sympathetic to the DM. Otherwise I can't see either side as any better or worse, just one player reacting badly to something expected to be worth $25.
@@ArcCaravan I disagree. There's a huge difference between saying, "That's not Vader. If you don't like it then leave" and throwing a massive tantrum at the table after being unable to derail it.
Every time they call you Dungeon Daddy, just roll a d10. Then write down the result. Even if it doesn't actually go to anything. When they ask, "what are you rolling for?" Answer truthfully, "nothing."
admittedly I would have leaned in so hard on that first one. Just like. blatantly assuming that out of the whole party I am Luke. And then I would have called the Vader-alike daddy ;D
OP was absolutely the asshole here. His behavior is equivalent to sitting down in a movie theater, not liking the movie, screaming about how he doesn't like it for half the runtime and finally throwing his popcorn at the screen before being escorted out, only to go back to the cashier and demand a refund after. Even if the movie was some derivative corporate schlock, it doesn't excuse or justify this behavior. If he acted like a decent human and just said "excuse me, I'm just not enjoying what you're going for here. You guys have fun" after the first ~15 minutes and left, he would have a better chance of getting a decent response when asking for refund later.
Yeah I lost sympathy for OP when he pulled the "the death star attack is terrorism" card. Some people need to learn the definition of words and the laws and customs of war to know why this doesn't count as terrorism.
i scrolled for a while and didn’t see any comments mentioning this - so i didn’t catch this until rewatching just now but when op is pushing back on ‘kenobi’ for plotting a terrorist attack the dm has completely omitted the whole thing with alderaan being blown up? that would certainly have been motivation right? like man he really dropped the ball considering how 1 to 1 everything was
"If you all chip in for a pizza, you don't get to throw it all away because you don't like pepperoni." Fair enough, but what if you chip in for pizza and then they bring you chinese food? Because that is what happens when you order DnD and get StarWars instead.
"I paid good money for this" dude, even in this economy $25 is not "good money" and this is coming from a woman who is living below the poverty line. I would have cut my losses, unless I was unfairly kicked. This guy is admitting to constantly interrupting, and possibly backseat DMing. I don't care if his criticisms of the plagiarism are valid, asking for a refund only because you have buyer's remorse is so entitled.
If I had a nickel for every time CritCrab covered a story involving a DM that recycled the plot of Episode 4 for their campaign, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's strange that it happened twice.
What CC was saying at 4:43 shows up in one of my current campaigns. We have characters who absolutely do not agree, and will have heated debates. After the session we talk about how much fun those were, and how while the character might hate/dislike the other character, player most definitely loves them. It's been such fun, and it has helped build up the whole story to such a huge degree.
5:54 Quotes from people with red blades: “Ah, you deny the weapon it’s purpose!” “It yearns to bathe in the blood of its enemies, but you hold it back!” “Can you hear that?” “DokTOR… I think it’s time for Jack TO LETTERIP!” “O.K… Let’s DANCE!” “Get ready for this!” “(Smugly smiles towards camera),”
Since the "DnD Starwars" is an AMTA story, I'd say everyone sucks. The OP's frustration is understandable yes but he doesn't need to be an ass about it. The DM should also have tried to deescalate things rather than feed the fire. Critcrab is very right when calling both the OP and the DM the villains here.
I get being annoyed paying $25 just for a Star Wars rehash but I’ve had sessions and stories with friends where we go “Hey wait this is *blank* thing we’re into” “Yes!” “Cool” And then we have a great time doing our version of something that usually, almost always, breaks off into its own thing barely reminiscent of the thing we stole it from
It's true you can't not plagiarize as a DM. My girlfriend last DnD game asked me if I was taking inspiration from underworld. I'm like... what's underworld? It hard not to be similar to something else.
It was a few of years ago, I spent a few weeks working out this adventure for our Star Wars game. Loads of notes, lots of twists, pretty cool. Then like three days before I ran the adventure, an episode of Doctor Who dropped and completely made me look like I was shamelessly ripping them off.
ok i just love how abruptly this video ended. that is comedy gold there to me. first story yeah i am more on the op's side than the dm's but i wanna know what the other players had to say
I definitely think the player should have stuck out the session. While it’s obvious that the DM was using the story structure of Star Wars, we’ll never know if that was going to be true all the way through to the end. Personally, I kinda want to see it all the way through, to see if he’d do anything different, like the Kenobi character actually being an actual terrorist, and they just kidnapped the princess instead of saving her. I would have also really liked to see how the DM ran the last act, where the fighters attacked the Death Star. Would it have been changed to an infiltration mission, or would they have to fly in on griffins or something? If the DM pulls out airships or something very similar to the movie, I could see this being a good time to call the DM for copying too much from Star Wars, as they never seemed to use any kind of ship previously. I also agree with CritCrab that while the OP paid for the game, the other players also paid. Who’s to say they weren’t having fun? If the OP was the only one voicing their dissatisfaction, maybe the other players didn’t mind or even wanted to play this “diet Star Wars”, especially if they weren’t very confident about role playing. While I can still see the argument that the DM was lazy and just plagiarized Star Wars, I honestly don’t think OP gave him enough of chance to prove that the story was more about than that.
Pretty sure OP questioning Kenobi was giving DM a chance to prove they aren't paying $25 for a cheap reenactment. The DM responses being salty rage at being called out doesn't really build trust in a potential twist worth waiting for. Though true on OP not really considering how the other players felt about the campaign and arguments, that damages their side. Honestly trusting DM feels like falling into the mood tabletop horror story trap of "hopefully it'll improve" until you realize you're better off leaving, especially since these are costing money.
Hah! One of my friends has been working on the UI for dungeon full dive, nice to see it here Great stories by the way! Favourite one is the noob one, sometimes you need a bit of tough love
I read a fantastic "Murder Hobo Deterrent" BBEG thing but can't remember where. It was a flying, slef-wielding enchanted sword that gained +1 damage for everything the party killed during the campaign. The more things you kill, the more damage this thing will do to you and your friends.
Agree but just for exercise sake, to abstract that 3. A base or machine so massive that it initially looks like just a piece of the scenery that the base or machine is on, not the machine itself with the slowly dawning realization that 1. This is a murder machine on a scale so unfathomably big it's way more than the characters bargained for and fills them with dread but 2. There's a small and unassuming weakness that normally would be overlooked, but might be leveraged for a risky and daring plan to use it in an unconventional way to destroy the machine through guile and determination Rather than brute force
Years ago I had a friend who as a great GM and group of friends/players. We played many TTRPGs together including D&D, Cyberpunk 2020, Rifts and GURPS, amongst others. Within GURPS we used the Discworld supplement (we were all fans of the late great Sir Terry Pratchett). then with in that he ran 2 really good campaigns one based on Star Wars and one based on superheroes (10 years pre the beginning of the MCU) and we has a ball playing both. It did help we were prewarned about themes and were totally on board.
Story 1: yes the DM not being original sucks but OP could have left after session 1 instead of sticking around. $25 isnt a lot long term and if the other players like it then OP is the odd man out and a total Ahole Story 2: gave me an idea, nobles have magic items to protect themselves or are skilled themselves. Like a necklace that has a modified faeire fire that marks you and every guard has your picture sent directly to them. And a ring that has a high end life transference, where the damage done to the attacker is sent to the noble for heals. And maybe a ring of teleport or misty step for good measure. Nobles make bank, show it. 3rd: sorry DM its your name now
Yeah that 1st story is................... if i knew my DM was getting several hundred dollars to run a campaign (the story indicates it was $25 a session and would be multiple sessions) while he was literally just reskinning a movie instead of using some creativity(edit: and it wasn't advertised beforehand, like in session 0) i'd want out by session 2 as well. If it was a forever/free DM i'd just try and have fun with it.
I did a post apocalyptical campaign, was intentionally loaded with cameos of unimportant characters from Water World, Mad Max, and other various films. The group loved interacting with these bizarre knock-offs and even begged to see certain archetypes in others. The game wound up going for almost a year in which the group had their own compound and a series of said characters hired out in different posts, the ones they didn't slaughter anyhow. The entire campaign had none of these characters, but the scenes such as the aircraft carrier stuck and shored, used as a fortress provided a perfect opportunity for "6 inches of the black goo left!" from a small man on a raft floating in a mass of black liquid located at the bottom of the base. It was those references and jokes that made that campaign something we all still talk about when seeing each other again after time has passed.
First story, I don't think you can really compare it everyone chipping in and getting a pepperoni pizza. It's like paying for something fancy together and what you get is a knock off from Temu. He paid $25 and got knock of Star Wars. While I wouldn't say it excuses OP's behavior, he is entitled to something better for that kind of money and so does the rest of the party.
Yeah my thoughts exactly, if we wanna go back to the pizza analogy it's like paying for a pepperoni and then expecting to be happy when they bring you a Hawaiian pizza instead. I don't see the OP having done much wrong to be honest, especially when there's a not insubstantial amount of money involved.
I think it would be different if OP had left earlier when he realized the game wasn't for him but he instead spent the whole time trying to detail it and complain at every chance, to me those behaviors make him a problem and fits the everyone chipped in for a pizza and he didn't like pepperoni
@@RazzleTheRed1More like you hound them to deliver a fucking pizza to your house they can't effing find it, Pizza Hut and Dominoes BOTH can't find a tree in a forest cause of their shitty GPS. Been ordering Pizzas for a very long time then all of a sudden it's like they are afraid to deliver, and then BLAME you and tell you not to ever call them again, blacklisted. Fuck Pizza make that shit yourself. OR you find a good place and then all of a sudden their pizza prices SKYROCKET even before the actual inflation. Like I said fk pizza places they are ALL a scam.
I'm guessing for OP to be considered less guilty they'd have to try getting the refund before he got kicked or considered the other players' opinions on the standard knock-off. Or in the pizza analogy, don't disturb everyone else's meal until you get thrown out the pizzeria.
Some of the most fun I’ve had playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was during the “1st edition (the AD&D hardback game), in the Grayhawk setting. A module called “The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror”. It was an inspired re-envisioning of the “Alice in Wonderland” story involving various trials and tribulations that were automatically integrated into that story. Lots of fun noticing recognizable features and overcoming game related traps, puzzles, and combat. Edited to add: “Winning DND”, had a similar situation many years ago in which the plot-NPC was killed by a dunderific-duo of murder hobos (though we didn’t know/use that terminology yet), so the DM made him into a revenant that could not rest until it’s objective was completed or it had murdered both of its killers. Made for an interesting game in which the two murder hobos kept screaming at the party to ‘protect them, protect them’ that they were innocent and ‘it’s just a game!’
The first story... Honestly, the main mistakes the GM commited was not kicking the OP earlier and not giving them their money back. Other than that, the fault is completely on the OP, a complete ass.
Completely agree. As soon as I heard the "I'm just brutally honest," I knew that OP was being an ass. You can have legitimate frustrations but being massively dramatic about it won't yield the results you want.
Since were only getting OP's version, I'm curious as to how much it actually was "just Star Wars". I feel like a lot of people today are quick to jump on someone for being just like xyz no matter how close it is or not
5:08 That's quite true. Honestly, one highlight of a campain I was in was when my character had an infighting with the party because we were looking for a way to find a way to cheer up a king whose wife had died. While looking for it, we found out a place where wishes came true, but only one could be given every 100 years. My elf had been going along and looking to avenge his son, who was killed by a traitor, but when he heard that a wish could be given, he started to think he could finally amend his mistake and make up for the grief that caused to his wife (my character had a lot of guilt for it, and the fact that the wish could be given every 100 years meant that this was the only time for him to do it, since his wife was human, and would mean that she would die before seeing their son again). It was a really intense moment where after them trying to avoid him taking the wish, he almost ends up leaving the party (it would've also been in vain, because the wish had a lot of restrictions, so he would've betrayed the party in the same way he was betrayed by his former friend, which was quite a tragic irony, but guilt and sadness had been eating him away for five years while he tried to find his son's murderer, so, the idea of having to wait another hundred years like that would've been like torture for him). Don't be scared about characters arguing and being in oposition from time to time, because they can lead to fantastic roleplay moments, and it's not like arguing in character means that you are angry at the other players or anything
In story one, OP is absolutely the problem player. We didn't get the perspective of a single other player, OP could have been the only one who had a problem!
@@ArcCaravanI don't know man... it seems to me the OP might just be an ass. Picking a few tropes and blaming the DM of copying star wars. If anything, he could have just left the game quietly and asked a refund without bothering the other players.
@@Chatedh True, though DM also could have tried solving it peacefully instead of saying "quit criticizing my completely original game you paid for or screw off". It's not even a few tropes, it was all just a lazy Star Wars reenactment that refused a legitimate alternative choice. Nothing was stopping the DM from admitting it's obviously Star Wars or just running a module. Personally the fact the DM got $125 dollars for this is what bugs me most, like it would not be nearly as bad if it was free. Both sides are being scummy here.
Nothing wrong pulling from media. I am in one group where we have 2 dms. One runs a pretty standard game but doesnt always have time to plan a session. The 2nd dm usuall then jumps in with an improvised game. our 2nd dm bases every improv session after a different movie. Part of the fun is guessing what movie were in. If we guess and can sneak in a quote from the correct movie, we get inspiration. So far we've done die hard, home alone, back to the future and clue. It's been a blast.
This came out perfectly since in two weeks we i start a Star Wars campaign set during the Old Republic setting. Players are - Zamzu the Jawa Scout. Togal the Hurglic Engineer. Paige the Deveronian Bounty Hunter Quinn Hansen the Twi'lek Pilot And Aina the Human Urchain with a cybernetic left hand and left eye.
That infographic you're referring to, Critcrab, is the meta narrative of the "Hero's Journey", which is a framework for a story that is about as old as time itself. Or at least, as old as humanity's art of storytelling. The Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest piece of litterature, arguably fits this framework as well. Edit: And a few minutes later he namedrops it as well. Seems my explanation was not needed !
Uh, the Hero's Journey was made up by one dude who crowbarred countless stories that were nothing alike to fit his preconceptions of a nonexistent monomyth. Only modern stories resemble it closely, and that's because modern authors use it as framework.
@@etcetera1995Yep. The biggest mistake you can make is to buy into the idea that the "Hero's Journey" is so fundamental. There do exist other story structures, and no true "monomyth" exists. As it happens, the "Hero's Journey" became so mainstream partly because Lucas claimed he used it for Star Wars, IIRC.
I had a DM who stole some ideas from a book series I'd never heard of. When my character became a paladin he litterally took an oath that was word for word from the book. When I learned this I wasn't upset I actaully immediately found myself attached to the character who held this. Oath it was less "omg can't believe my dm did this:l" and more "hey I remember this! Oh wow this guy's like I was!"
The DM from the first story lowkey sounds like a scammer: Bland campaign, dishonest narrative, no refunds, and it stopped halfway through the first session. If anyone sold a product or service other than a TTRPG campaign in this same manner they would be called a scammer and would potentially have been sued
@xryeau_1760 It's exactly why I would NEVER pay a DM I don't know to run a game for me. Nothing is stopping them from running off with your money nor does anything promise they'll live up to their price. No boss nor guild to answer to, no promise of a refund, an because an RP session has subjective quality, it's not possible to objectifly claim "Your honor, this man gave me a bad session and owes me my money back!" Den of the Drake once said one's DMing style isn't something you can really market because even if you're a good DM, your style might not be something a paying player might enjoy. An LSG is better, at least a DM there has to answer to a store owner since no SO will tolerate their customers being short handed.
I’d actually argue that the OP is in the wrong. We’re hearing their biased POV, and only their POV. OP didn’t ask anyone else if they were having fun. And when they called the DM “Arbitrator of Fun”, they themselves were being the same thing they were accusing the DM of. OP probably killed the enjoyment of the story for the DM, and the players. Notice how when he talked to his buddy all he said was “the game didn’t pick up after that session”. Like- was it because the players decided to leave? Or was it because the DM just ruined the story for the rest of the party? Like… Yeah, ripping of star wars isn’t the most original thing, but like… what is? Stars War is just one of a million retellings of the Heroes Journey. It itself isn’t original. But is that an excuse? No… not really… but if the rest of the party doesn’t have an issue with it, then go up to the dm in private say, “hey, this isn’t what I was expecting, and I would like my money back please.” Instead of causing a scene.
For the noob murderhobbo story i compare it to myself during work and whenever i have to take care of a kid or just found one by chance while walking on the street With the former i respond with a punch directed to their face while i go easy on the later telling them to cut it or calm down Reason? Well... My coworkers are full grown adults and should be able to understand when they cross the line and how to behave (specially at work), meanwhile a child is ignorant to those things One is being annoying on purpose or at least being negligent while the other is doing it without bad intentions
Won't deny that the DM is a plagiarist, but OP sounds like a jerk. If he's not enjoying the fact that the DM is copying Star Wars, just leave after Session 1. Don't continue to pay and play, don't get in some snark war to try and own the DM, just leave. And the fact that 1. There's nothing on whether the other players enjoyed the game or not and 2. The game ended after he confronted the DM on Darth Vader, don't make OP look any better
About the whole stealing thing. My DM stole his base plot from the first Borderlands game. We figured that out pretty quick and we all had a great laugh about it. He didn't mind. He laughed with us. We still play in that campaign and have the time of our lives.
If everybody chips in for a pizza you don't get to throw it away because you don't like pepperoni. But if you're not going to eat pepperoni pizza they shouldn't ask you to pitch in for the double pepperoni thin crust
For what it’s worth, I’d have been pissed too. But honestly not as pissed off as OP. I’d have least stuck around to see how the climactic TIE- Fighter Vs X-Wing climax would play out in a D&D setting. Also, as the Bible states in Ecclesiastes 1:9- “ All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing. 9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” So even in historical times, it was known that nothing is truly original
No as a fan this dude is the a-hole. The moment you pull the t-word card related to the plot of A New Hope, you lose me. It doesn't match the definition of terrorism at all.
Honestly one of my favorite things is making characters based on other established characters and having my dm guess who they are based on. I can’t imagine what’s the fun in basically making a 1:1 copy of Star Wars without mixing it up abit.
Once a comic book writer said "don't copy, steal, if you copy, it will show, instead, take the concept, the idea, and what you like from the original, then present it your own way" that's what this GM was lacking, worst thing is that it was charging for a copy-paste game. I agree that those "brutally honest" people tend to use it as a shield for being jerks, but sometimes you have to be a jerk to be heard...
But do you really need to be heard. For instance I have never watched Star wars and therefore would probably enjoy this game and maybe some people do dream of wanting to play Star wars and are having fun nobody else in the group was complaining and if he wanted to leave he could have when the DM gave him the opportunity to instead of just staying there just to make snarky comments at everybody and ruin the game for everybody else.
@@lahlybird895 I'm not talking about op here. About op, i wasn't saying he was ok in doing it, op should have talked privately, the gm should have also talked on the side and offered an out in better terms, the dm got stubborn on keeping his game and op got dense on not wanting that game resulting in a clash.
If you want to find a great example of a D&D rules inspired game taking inspiration from the original Star Wars plot, look no further than Knights of the Old Republic 1. The game starts out with the good guy ship being attacked, but the main hero has to fight his way off the ship. The princess has been replaced by a talented but overconfident Jedi who has been captured by gangsters. Then later on the Death Star has been replaced in the plot by the Star Forge, a massive space factory instead of a super weapon. And instead revealing that the big bad was related the main hero, the main hero learns they were once the big bad's mentor and friend. Its enough to follow the same story beets but made the story feel fresh at the time too.
The first guy didn't do anything wrong. It's illegal to charge money for plagiarized material, and that was the most blatantly plagiarized material I have ever seen. If I were him, since the DM clearly had no intention of doing anything original, I would have used my knowledge of Star Wars to change the plot. Tell the princess that the "black knight" is her real father, tell Not-Vader that he shouldn't destroy his daughter's adopted home since it'll just create martyrs for the rebels to rally around, and that he should choose his kids over the emperor before it's too late because it's what his wife would have wanted, and, of course, make sure whoever the DM's Luke is doesn't make out with the princess (that was the one problem I had throughout all six movies).
You cannot plagiarize a plot. The dm changed all propper nouns, people, places, and things. Heck, if he wrote it down he could legally sell it. You come closer to plagurization when you run a d&d game while calling the eye stalk floating head a "beholder." Even so, he is not replicating a work, just referencing it, hence falls under parody; like "Space Balls." D&D even does this a lot in current publications; ie the sun sword from CoS is a light saber. Also, armored magic user with a firey sword is in the monster manual under "death knight." Not sure op is aware if the dm is using a classic monster or has a star wars reference. I will say too that the plot cannot be the same if the characters make different choices; ie, not dressing as guards to get the princess out, not fleeing through the trash, and there did not appear to be an "old Ben" dm PC or else the op would have complained about it. If it is too close to star wars, it is equal parts on the players here.
They infiltrate the fortress and make their way to the prison level, I mean dungeon, and find the princess in cell 2187, and when he sees the princess, OP says "Hey, you look just like my sister!"
First story, guy you are the player. You have the agency, make the story about whatever you want. So what if it is Star Wars? DM did you a favor by dropping you in a familiar world and plot that you know so you don't have to expend extra brain power on that part. Use that free capital to exercise your agency within this framework. What if Luke decided to team up with his father overthrow the Empire to establish themselves as the ruling Dynasty? What if he decided to for go the rebellion completely and go full space pirate with Solo? Go ham.
I think that was the issue with the DM. OP did start playing into that, but the DM essentially said “follow the story or leave.” It wouldn’t have been too bad, but it seems the DM was pretty bent on railroading.
I'm glad that you addressed the whole "brutally honest" part, because it was the first thing on my mind when OP felt the need to highlight that. Using "brutal honesty" as like a badge of pride is a red flag.
No surprise why he has to pay... None wants him at the table
What's that quote about how no one ever seems to use "brutal honesty" as a reason to be complimentary to people? 🤔
amazing how people who are described as "brutally honest" only shit on other people's work without apologizing
when someone actually has both negative AND positive things to say, they're just referred to as "honest"
Bro is PAYING to sit at a table that is being run by a DM who blatantly copied Star wars and sprinkled it with some pseudo-magic flavour.
Idk but if you are getting paid 150 per SESSION and expect to be praised for your work or not have at least some criticism, that tells a lot more about you than OP and the rest of the table.
@@Owch- That is fair criticism. But the problem tends to be that people who call themselves "Brutally honest" are the kind of people who want to hide behind honesty as a reason to be an outright asshole instead of actually thinking about and presenting their criticism in a constructive and helpful way. It is the difference between a guy pulling his friend to the side to tell him there is a stain on the seat of his pants and standing in the middle of a room and shouting "Hey Steve! looks like you shit yourself!" both are being Honest, but on is 100x Better than the other.
First story: OP is the AH, but not for the reasons he thinks. There were five other players at that game, and OP just focuses on his own disgust about the rehashed Star Wars plot. He paid $25, but so did five other people. At what point did OP ever try to ask anyone else if they felt the same way as him? If six players join, and five players don't complain about the plot, then it's kind of understood that they want to play that plotline.
That or at least are mature enough to wait for after the session to bring up their problems.
Honestly I gotta hard disagree with "both people" being the assholes here. I can't possibly imagine what the DM did to make him an asshole, other than I guess not refunding the money. Which, to be quite honest with you, if it were me I would _also_ probably keep brutally honest prick's money and use it to help refund the other 4. Call it the asshole tax.
@@TwighlightLugiamaybe OP should’ve looked into the DM more, maybe seeing what sort of world he was to play in, idk. But if I paid good money to replay a Star Wars movie I’d be pissed too. OP is nta, the DM is an unoriginal loser who shouldn’t be getting paid. He should be banned from the site for not coming up with his own story
@@travishester6859 all you said would be true if the DM was honest about the setting and had not promised an original plot. I don't know if he did or not but judging by his Vader response I assume he did promise an originl plot or at least did not communicate on the subject. (A better response when confronted with the acusation that his red sword wielding Black Knight is Vader is to say that, "yes, he is vaderesque, inspired by Vader but don't you want to play and see what twists I've added?")
My main problem is that they didn't address things w/the DM sooner, & in a much more respectful/mature way. Instead of speaking up right away & simply saying "Hey, from what u just described it sounds like ur just going 2 run us through the plot of Star Wars. That isn't what I was told the game was going 2 b & I'm not rlly interested in that, so I would like 2 just get my money back & opt out of this now." which would have allowed them 2 avoid being bored & dissatisfied w/out making things unpleasant 4 every1, they decided 2 stay in the game just so they could inflict their bad attitude on every1 else. Now, the DM didn't handle things well either, cuz when OP got pissy about the Darth Vader knock off they could have just said, "I'm sorry ur not having fun, but this is what I prepared 4 this. If it isn't ur thing that's totally alright. Why don't I just give u a refund & u can leave?" which would have kept things from escalating as much as they did, but I can also understand the DM losing their cool if OP had been trying 2 derail things & being moody the whole time, which OP kind of implied was the case.
Yeah I got the same vibe when the guy said "I'm the brutally honest one." that to me is code for "I'm the asshole." Even if the game was ripped from star wars directly, honestly if the others were having fun I would say let it be. Maybe some people dream of playing through that exact scenario? The DM gave OP chances to leave if he wasn't having fun and OP stuck around to continuously be a jackass and disruptive to the game rather than be mature and make his grievance known after the session.
Definitely would have made OP look better to just ask for a refund earlier instead of potentially ruining the other players' time. Though DM's stubborn insistence that the campaign is not a rip off Star Wars and the black knight with red sword isn't Darth Vader still looks bad.
I agreed the moment he did the "this is terrorism" crap. I hate seeing that argument. The fortress/Death Star is a valid military target and so is anyone on it.
I honestly doubt OP actually agreed with that argument, just using it to see if the DM is just railroading the paying party into reenacting Star Wars or if alternate paths were possible. Doesn't help that this version may not have established this empire as deserving of overthrowing.@@emberfist8347
Was the DM right to do that? Arguable. Dud it deserve that kind of reaction? No. Though if I was the DM I might have refunded the money.
Agreed. That OP seemed like a self righteous prick through and through. Only fault I take with the DM is not kicking them sooner to salvage what they could of the session for the rest of the players, and (potentially) for not refunding the $25
Honestly, while recreating Star Wars beat by beat isn't a *great* look for the DM, I believe him when he says OP was completely ruining the game for everyone else. When telling the story, even OP doesn't note that anyone else seemed bored or upset with DM, and even just reading the story OP sounds kind of exhausting.
Considering how OP described himself it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the similarities to star wars were far smaller and further apart than he made it seem
Notice aswell that while its 'ripping off starwars' its doing so in the most vague and broad storybeats ever. This entire thing could be ripping off about 20 different movies/books.
Take the darth vader encounter for an example, if it was a rip off of starwars thats where their DM NPC would have engaged darth in order to give them time to flee.
Theres no mention of them infiltrating in some sort of vehicle, no mention of Leia and the trash compactor, no mention of the tractor beams needing to be disabled.
Instead its "There is a magical weapon in a castle where the princess is being held, she has information on how to destroy the weapon, we must rescue her" and otherwise the motif of black armour and a flaming sword IS WHAT DARTH VADER WAS BASED OFF, not the otherway around.
This whole thing strikes me as a reddit troon complaining about nothing and ruining the game for everyone else involved.
@@cop5144a reddit WHAT
@@cyruscrompton8221 Troon, aka a mentally ill guy in makeup.
8:20 The irony of OP accusing the DM of being the arbiter of fun, while OP is trying to be the arbiter of fun for everyone else at the table, is palpable.
Seriously! I wanna play a D&D rehash of Star Wars. Why does OP get to decide that isn't fun?
To quote my totally original, $25 per session per player game: "Ironic"
The tension was palpable? More like palpatine-able
Ba-dum tsss
*deep breath*
Just give me a second.
*Cringes*
"somehow, the tension returned"
@@henryhere "Powerful resurrection spells? Secrets only the wizards knew?"
HEY-OOO!
His reaction at very end has the same energy as "Annnd that's enough internet for one day."
"Take us out on an adventure, Dungeon Daddy!"
"Enough! Stop with that nickname or I swear I'll drop the highest level monster I can find in the Waifu Manual on your ass"
@@ZorotheGalladeAre you threatening them with a good time?
@@ArcCaravan Poor Dungeon -Daddy- Master. Can't get a break.
That second story with the guy "winning D&D" felt.......off. It had the same vibe as those "and then everybody clapped" stories. Most people aren't just logic'd to silence like that.
I felt the same thing! To me it was obviously a fake story
Witness testimony is the flimsiest kind of evidence for a reason. A lot of these stories are clearly presented with multiple layers of make up even when the were based on real experiences.
Yeah I was calling B.S on that one too. Sounds like someone had a fake scenario in their head and wanted to sound cool for the internet.
Not to mention, if this was noobs first experience with D&D, way to turn someone away from the game. 'Had to be done' is questionable.
@@Syurtpiutha "This person who has never played before is being a murder hobo, better embarrass them so I look cool"
To be fair... the tropes/concepts surrounding the Death Star are pretty fun to use all at once;
1. Enormous superweapon the heroes wanna raid and disable/destroy.
2. Rescue a captive or number of captives.
3. A dangerous enforcer of the Big Bad shows up to stop the heroes.
4. Big explosion.
Too bad the DM sucked nuggets and couldn't figure out a way to turn that into something unique or even remotely transformative. There HAD to be a princess in the dungeon at the fort? There HAD to be a black knight with a red sword? The OP brought up valid points and the DM should've read the room. He was made. The con was discovered. Hell, randomizing it could've been fun. When you want $25 a head, you better be pretty good and not a copy paste jagoff. Everything you said was loose enough that it should be the template for those trying to copy SW. Weapon. Victims/captives. Right hand to or is the BBEG trying to stop you. Big explosion. It's perfect. You can even mix it up a bit and put the explosion first and do a retaliation plot. Anything! This guy was lazy.
As a DM I borrow from many trope/stories. But if you can't even be the least bit transformative in the opening few session of the campaign AND YOU ARE GETTING PAID... Really just fuck right off with that horse shit. I have the Merry Men from Robin hood in my campaign, but trust me it is going to be VERY different when that arc is done, and TBH they were really different in the beginning too!
Did they not realize there’s an entire ruleset for a Star Wars game?
When all you've got is a hammer...
More than one, even
@@Draeckon Three to be specific.
But then they'd have to come up with their own story line. Yeah they can have it thebstarvwars world and use some of the characters, but like they still then need to make a story. (And whether it is something that might be a fan fiction that fits in between cannon events or as an alt world, he'd also have to decide.
……I didn’t 😅
I like how you showed the faults in what the person posting did as well as the dm
I noticed a distinct lack in how the other players felt and the player assumed they were speaking for the rest of them
Your pizza analogy summed it up fairly well
Yeah, I really liked the pizza analogy
I kinda disagree, if you chip in to pay for a pepperoni pizza and instead get a Hawaiian you have every right to complain
Yeah but I'm *sorta* on OP's side. This is a paid game, I'm not paying to play an obvious knockoff of a movie I could be watching for free.
@@RazzleTheRed1Only instead of getting an immediate refund for the mistake, the people who are fine with Hawaiian have their meal disrupted until the pizzeria throws the disturbance out.
@@starofjustice1 Yea. It's the only reason I'm giving OP any leeway in this. Because yea. It's a 25 Dollars per session game. DM is getting paid 150 Bucks for this. He should have just stood up and asked for a refund once he saw it. This kind of game can be plenty of fun. But you don't expect that from a paid game.
Wait... a D&D campaign that just retells Star Wars. That's the second time a story like this popped up on your channel. Only this DM wasn't even being subtle.
I just like the idea of Star Wars in D&D, basically 2020 and 2021 was the Medieval era of the modern day thanks to the Pandemic and the internet's fascination with coning the term "Bardcore" metal songs made into an old sound, then there was Star Wars and the medieval compositions and Epic medieval remixes that basically almost inspired me to fucking write Star Wars but in Medieval times. Lightsabers would be made from special metal not found on earth but from a comet or meteoroid or something 'mysterious and spacey" that fell to the planet some very long time ago. The Force could be a different form of magic or maybe a divine sense that is only meant for the noble or rich or even the special gifted monks or bad guys. (Jedi or Sith) Do you see where I am going with this? Just listen Battle over Coruscant or some of the others like General Grevious' theme song and you'll know exactly what I mean by what I described; you'll see it too in your minds eye as well. Seeing really is believing, search for the answer within yourself you know it's true.
@@BlackMoonHowls You're not wrong, but maybe try not to recreate a whole movie with your campaign.
Or at least if you do recreate the entire movie tell the Players that are paying for your services you are doing so. I'm sure you would find plenty that could have fun with that to.
To be honest Star Wars is a big hit for a reason. But yeah it should be advertised as "Star Wars but fantasy"
In a shorter cosmic horror campaign we finished earlier this year, my s/o the DM just straight up used Anton Chigurh as the BBEG. Even recreated a couple scenes directly from the movie. Almost completely unaltered in name, as he changed it to Theodore Chegar.
And that campaign _ruled,_ even despite being only about 5 sessions long, we got to close on a really good harrowing note. As for Theodore, he was basically an infant cosmic being who was supposed to be benevolent but was bad at it. Regardless, the success of that campaign probably had to do with the fact that he told us ahead of time. That said, we also are just a trio of people who live together and consider each other family. But still.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING OUT THAT COPYING STORYLINES ISNT A BAD THING, I get so tired of hearing "The Author/Writing Critics" constantly talk about how everything is so unoriginal these days when 9/10 their favorite anime/media is definitely copying an aspect of it from something else.
There hasn't been an original story in thousands of years. And that's okay.
Yeah most western fantasy is tolkien but with X instead of Y
Not that it's a serious problem
It's not like Star Wars is a wholly original story anyway.
In this context it's especially funny because Star Wars was very heavily inspired by an old Japanese movie I'm forgetting the name of right now. The things he's mentioning fit better to that story, so it would be on the same level as Star Wars then, not a derivative of it.
it's not everyday you hear CritCrab give up. That last story though... wow.
My group is similar. They nicknamed me “Big Daddy DM” and even joked about collectively buying me a DM screen with that engraved in it
In my first ttrpg group, we nicknamed our GM "God."
@@unluckyone1655was he black and looked like Morgan Freeman?
@solouno2280 lol no. He was a SSG and he did have a fairly deep voice.
@@unluckyone1655he was a super saiyan god?
Can't wait for the twist where the OP finds out the DM is his father.
I don't think so
I doubt that's a possibility
No, no, not the GM but an NPC: the totally random guy in the totally random black mask with totally random heavy breathing and totally random red lightsaber.
@@GarkKahn I see what you did there
Remember, there is no barrier for entry to be a "Pro-DM." Anyone can do it and there's no certification they hand out to be recognized as a good DM.
This is why, in my shop, the first game is always free. My brother and I run five games a week at our store on a monthly subscription system. But if you're new to the store, we always let you sit down and play without a charge and then you can decide if we're worth your money.
I'm proud to say that 95% of the people that come to our tables are back the next week, ready to sign up and put down money.
Does anyone else think dm #2 taught the player nothing? He just punished him, didnt clarify the issue, and just sent him on his merry way to murder hobo again?
I felt like the story was completely fake, like it was going to end with everybody clapping at the GM at the end.
That or made the person never want to play D&D again.
If the dude had self awareness he would learn, if not then he's just not going to be a part of it. He essentially kicked him from the group in a very ironic way showing him it was not about winning DnD. If he continues being a murder hobo, it's not the groups problem. They lose a player but they get to continue the campaign
@@blackironslayer7228 the problem is it's hard to self awareness if player is really noob. And he is: be glad to won DnD is sign. So he just might not know what is good or bad, and he just play like he would if it were videogame. Showing consequences is much better way to teach than metagame like "u won, now leave"
@@hasenblake The problem is that it derails the campaign for other players. There are so many other stories where the other players pay for murderhobo choices. The good thing to do would be to be patient and try to teach the new player, but the group has no obligation to do such. Consider for a moment that the DM retcons the npc killed coming back to life and the noobs immediate action is to attempt to murder the npc again.
The video was really quiet to hear until I had to boost the volume on this. Just putting it out there.
Thanks, noted ✍️🦀👍
@@CritCrabtip: use an LUFS meter and get your audio somewhere from -15LUFS to -13LUFS (for UA-cam. Other platforms have different loudness standards). Idk what software you are using, but some programs like Reaper have LUFS normalization that can automatically limit your waveform to the desired loudness level. If your program has LUFS normalization, then be sure to use it.
Also, I didn't personally have a problem with the audio level so maybe just ignore everything in this thread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ah, great! I felt like I was going insane, its not a huge issue thankfully
@@CritCrabyooo, you are still alive. Thank god.
As my creative writing teacher always said: "All the stories have been told. All that matters is how YOU tell it." Stripped down to its core, every story follows one of very few plotlines, but it is your utilization of the tools(tropes) at your disposal that makes your story unique. But you have to actually TRY to tell a unique story; it's not an excuse to just blatantly rip off a popular piece of media and just change up some names.
On the other hand genre bending a popular piece of media is very fun
I mean the mere fact that they took a Sci-Fi story and turned it into a fantasy story even if it does have the exact same plot is already different enough that I personally would love it and think it was really cool.
The problem is, that these "rules" are not created and every story ever told was told by these rules. The rules where created by analyzing successful stories and take what all of them have in common. It's like looking for what every apple has in common and then complaining that every(successful) apple that you can create is basically the same.
Of course there is a difference between "following the fundamentals" and "a shameless rip off".
That's kinda a tinsy bit of sophistry sprinkled over the truth, which storytellers like to give out rather than explain the fundamental nature of relayed intercorrollated human experiences within a specific cultural conceptual framework. I've started to give it out less lately since people started pretending that 'originality' is literally taking the average of all words on the internet that match a prompt.
@@delqyrus2619so u agree, good stories follow the same few formulae. And shit stories don't
@@vampire9545 I say that these few "formulae" are the smallest thing that many "good stories" have in common. Not everything that follows these is good, not everything that is good follows these "formulae". But a Story is more likely to be good, if it does.
5:03 in my last campaign I DMd there was an argument in RP that went on for about 30. It got so intense that I did have to find a spot to break character to make sure that it was actually RP and not the players starting to get upset.
In my group it's so common that once someone from outside got mad at us for acting like that and then we cut rp for a second to tell him "bro what's your problem? we're having fun peacefully over here, just chill already"
For outsider must feel like witnessing a massacre but then finding out they all agree to do it for fun, and nobody is actually angry
I compare it to a sane person being the crazy one among a bunch of insane people
He really straight up remade a death star xD The flaming sword dude in black armor was just overkill.
Also, I think that the person who "Won D&D" was hilarious in that the DM made him feel elated and proud of himself as a roundabout way of kicking him out of the session. Extremely harsh, but if a murderhobo is going to drive a story completely off the rails by killing people soon as they meet them, yeah something has to be done
I would want an information if it was communicated in advance it is going to be a linear story. I would probably try to first stop him and explain to him what he is doing. If he would continue, use the world. He just killed someone, even more so, a nobleman, I am sure there is more than enough methods to explain to him that there is no AI to outsmart, GM is watching and he does have only one life to play with, no save games. I would probably kick him if he would be at the same time causing trouble to the rest of the group, but this just sounds too basic and a bit ... odd. How old was that player? How can you manage to tell someone s/he won DnD and s/he believes it? Some serious groundwork is missing here.
@@5daboz It's like winning GTA Online, you don't. Simple as that and age is but a number it is how the person is mentally or acts and carries themselves. Something something something ego mania I think, perhaps.
Just let them kill two random NPCs, then describe the third one as either one of their childhood friends or a guy you obviously should not mess with, if they still try to, then "roll for initiative" and let them fight against someone 8 lvls above them. Yes, nothing would be worse than turning that murder hobo into Vegeta and your quest giver into Gary fucking Oak
@@5daboz Maybe it'd help to look at the player's motivations. The murderhobo who's just trying to accrue large quantities of powerful gear, or a horde's worth of gold, isn't doing it to pursue some story-based end goal. Killing a nobleman because they might have lots of gold sounds like they're approaching the game like a... game: with points, high scores, and win-conditions. Letting them "win" D&D is intended to reinforce that that's not what this group's about. The noob maybe didn't understand what was going on, and wasn't responding to correction.
IF OP's retelling of the situation is accurate. I notice a suspicious lack of details being given in these supposed copies. The knight has black armour and a flaming sword, bit what is his backstory? His personality? His motivations? The other comparisons are also glossed over and stripped to the superficial similarities. I note a Han Solo expy is also absent.
Things can be twisted a lot by biased retellings, and given how the OP behaved and described themself, I don't trust their account to be honest. Ironically, no one is more willing to be dishonest than the "brutally honest" types.
There are really only a few stories, and they've all been told before. Boiled down, they are "Get to the place" (The Odyssey), "Win the heart" (The Iliad), "Get revenge" (Cain and Abel), "Find the thing" (Jason and the Golden Fleece), and "Save the world" (Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure). Yes I stole that from somewhere. The "Hero's Journey" combines many of those threads into a recognizable pattern with little variations.
This reminds me of when I (DM) was trying to do a one shot with me group where they have to save the town from this monstrous pile of flesh
I made the mistake of hireing them to "find out what is happening to the missing townfolk" They figured out the monster was eating them and demanded payment without killing the monster. We had a heated debate in character to try and get them to fight the monster. It ended when the Bard tried to get the town motivated to fight for themselves by singing "The Mob Song" from beauty and the beast. I waited until they sang the "Its time to follow meee!" Line to say they successfully inspired the town to follow you into battle against the monster.
We still talk about this years later
I have put down playing dnd for a while now but still enjoyed you making these videos for me to listen at work. Thanks, dude.
The proper way to handle noob murder-hobos (i.e. people who are ignorantly ruining the game, not people who are deliberately ruining the game) is to hold them responsible in the game. You attack the Nobel? His bodyguards (oh, you didn't notice his body guards?) attack you and either kill you outright, or capture you and turn you over to the law who puts you on trial and then executes you. Or, you find out that the Nobel is a much higher level character than you and he kills you in self-defense himself.
Although the "you won D&D" is funnier, I doubt he learned anything by it -- other than you are kind of a jerk.
As someone who hasn't played DND and this is my only exposure that's definitely what I would've got from that experience lmao
If that last story's even real, all that got was a new player chastised from playing the game even if he did self reflect on his behaviour so congrats to that DM I suppose.
This is giving in-game consequences to out-of-game problems. It doesn't "teach the guy a lesson" any more than the whole "you won D&D" does. It just forces the rest of the party to sit through watching their playtime be wasted as the DM focuses on giving consequences to the problem player's actions, at the expense of their fun and storytelling.
The best way to handle murderhobos is to pause the game when they try to do something murderhobo-y, tell them that doing so is frowned upon and would cause a domino effect of consequences and derail the plot the rest of the party is pursuing, and that they should play nice and keep the other players' fun in mind, or stop playing.
This way you've wasted maybe 5m of everybody's time, not hours or potentially sessions.
@@LizBlizzard How is playing out the results of the character's actions in game, an out-of-game problem?
_"It just forces the rest of the party to sit through watching their playtime be wasted as the DM focuses on giving consequences to the problem player's actions [...]"_
What player action are you talking about? I'm talking about what the *character does in game* having *in game consequences.*
@@fred_derf When the player makes their character perform an action that the rest of the party does not want them to perform (such as murderhoboing), that's a problem with the player. The player chose to do an action without considering how it would affect the rest of the party. That's an out-of-character problem.
If the entire party (and DM) approves of having the CG Rogue steal something, but they fail their check, and they need to deal with the consequences as a team, that's good and positive in-character behavior that warrants in-character consequences. Same if the entire party approves of the Paladin smiting that one asshole noble who's been oppressing the town, knowing full well that'll make them wanted criminals, and so on.
The problem with a murderhobo is that they're controlling their characters, and making them perform actions that go against what the rest of the party wishes to happen in-game. That's, again, an out-of-character problem. The character does not exist without the player, the character does nothing without the player, so it cannot be a "character problem."
I once ran a game that was just the Warcraft setting. While everything was set in motion to follow the plot of the games, the players had full agency in what to do. A couple players knew exactly what was going to happen and exploited it by trying to derail things. Little did they know that I had planned on that and they now had a great time in this alternate timeline of the warcraft universe.
Specifically, they killed Arthas before he became the Lich King and took his runeblade. The PC that took the blade failed a check and was now convinced he needed to go to Northrend to save the spirits of his ancestors and started taking Death Knight levels (homebrew class). Sadly the game fizzled out before they ever got that far.
I think something similar should have occurred here. The player knows this is Star Wars. Why not use that to his advantage? Convince the rest of the party to turn against the rebels, maybe work with the DM to become an imperial informant, maybe take the rebels' focus elsewhere. There is so much to be done without just whining.
Though to be honest, the DM should've just said "lol yeah, I'm basing this off of Star Wars" and be fine with the players trying to take their own route in the story.
Your Warcraft campaign sounds pretty cool!
DM fucked up.
I would feel insulted if i was supposed to pay for OG story,only to figure out dude went "let's copy the whole thing,quick money"
That second story DM sounds like a complete tool. I can't imagine their "congratulations" being spoken in anyway but spiteful sarcasm. And the player was kicked out?! I expected a wholesome resolution where the DM ends the bit by making the player promise to change. Instead, they just kicked out the noob in the most childish, kids' show way imaginable.
Also, the first story's OP is a total dick. Some snarky teen who thinks he's the only one who caught on to the obvious copycatting. No one else cared to complain, he should've let it be or leave without making such a scene
Definitely iffy how those OPs handled their situation, though the opposite didn't do much better.
6:15 too true, it's face-palming how often people try to say they're a critic but never actually offer any criticism whatsoever just trash talk and bad-mouthing. That said, OP is totally the asshole, DM may have been unoriginal, but he wasn't the bad guy imo. People together could have said they didn't want to play it and ask for a refund but my OPs statement he's the only one that was throwing a fit and ruined the mood for everyone invovled.
I'd say DM's stubborn vehement refusal to admit he's ripping off Star Wars for a group who's paying him $125 makes him bad here, though OP isn't much (if at all) better. We don't know if the other player's actually liked the campaign or not, just that they said nothing. DM seemed more concerned with not being called unoriginal than OP ruining everyone's time complaining.
@@ArcCaravan while I'm sure he was annoyed by that the impression im getting is he just wanted to play the game, which he was being paid to do. I really can't find any fault in the DM here. Even copying Star Wars isn't a justification for the OP's antics.
@@gorgeouszan If DM was honest about having players pay for a blatant Star Wars knockoff, I'd be more sympathetic to the DM. Otherwise I can't see either side as any better or worse, just one player reacting badly to something expected to be worth $25.
@@ArcCaravan I disagree. There's a huge difference between saying, "That's not Vader. If you don't like it then leave" and throwing a massive tantrum at the table after being unable to derail it.
Every time they call you Dungeon Daddy, just roll a d10. Then write down the result. Even if it doesn't actually go to anything.
When they ask, "what are you rolling for?"
Answer truthfully, "nothing."
As soon as they got to the fortress, "I cast fireball at the exhaust port."
admittedly I would have leaned in so hard on that first one. Just like. blatantly assuming that out of the whole party I am Luke.
And then I would have called the Vader-alike daddy ;D
OP was absolutely the asshole here. His behavior is equivalent to sitting down in a movie theater, not liking the movie, screaming about how he doesn't like it for half the runtime and finally throwing his popcorn at the screen before being escorted out, only to go back to the cashier and demand a refund after. Even if the movie was some derivative corporate schlock, it doesn't excuse or justify this behavior. If he acted like a decent human and just said "excuse me, I'm just not enjoying what you're going for here. You guys have fun" after the first ~15 minutes and left, he would have a better chance of getting a decent response when asking for refund later.
Yeah I lost sympathy for OP when he pulled the "the death star attack is terrorism" card. Some people need to learn the definition of words and the laws and customs of war to know why this doesn't count as terrorism.
@@emberfist8347Definitely counts as treason.
Great theater metaphor for why OP was wrong here. Still petty of the DM to insist and only care about being called unoriginal.
@@ArcCaravan No that is not the definition of treason either.
Still attacking the ruling power which is usually illegal, regardless of what words are used to define it.@@emberfist8347
I love it when my favorite RPG story channels puts out a new video in time for my commute!! Thanks CritCrab :)
A very important sentence:
Speaking without forethought is NOT speaking the brutal truth
2:05 That’s actually the reason “The Hero’s Journey” was created to show that all human stories were fundamentally the same.
Whenever critcrab uploads, my shift at work cant go by fast enough :3
Thank you 🦀💞
i scrolled for a while and didn’t see any comments mentioning this - so i didn’t catch this until rewatching just now but when op is pushing back on ‘kenobi’ for plotting a terrorist attack the dm has completely omitted the whole thing with alderaan being blown up? that would certainly have been motivation right? like man he really dropped the ball considering how 1 to 1 everything was
"If you all chip in for a pizza, you don't get to throw it all away because you don't like pepperoni."
Fair enough, but what if you chip in for pizza and then they bring you chinese food?
Because that is what happens when you order DnD and get StarWars instead.
I would be the proudest DM if my players call me
"Dungeon Daddy~ u.u" regularly.
Sir Vader: "You may escape me, but you cannot escape the Force..."
Not Luke: "Yes, Daddy."
Vader: "...How did you know that?"
Not Luke: I searched my feelings?
"I paid good money for this" dude, even in this economy $25 is not "good money" and this is coming from a woman who is living below the poverty line. I would have cut my losses, unless I was unfairly kicked. This guy is admitting to constantly interrupting, and possibly backseat DMing. I don't care if his criticisms of the plagiarism are valid, asking for a refund only because you have buyer's remorse is so entitled.
If I had a nickel for every time CritCrab covered a story involving a DM that recycled the plot of Episode 4 for their campaign, I'd have two nickels.
Which isn't a lot, but it's strange that it happened twice.
What CC was saying at 4:43 shows up in one of my current campaigns. We have characters who absolutely do not agree, and will have heated debates. After the session we talk about how much fun those were, and how while the character might hate/dislike the other character, player most definitely loves them. It's been such fun, and it has helped build up the whole story to such a huge degree.
Thank you for the video, Crab Daddy.
5:54 Quotes from people with red blades: “Ah, you deny the weapon it’s purpose!” “It yearns to bathe in the blood of its enemies, but you hold it back!” “Can you hear that?” “DokTOR… I think it’s time for Jack TO LETTERIP!” “O.K… Let’s DANCE!” “Get ready for this!” “(Smugly smiles towards camera),”
Since the "DnD Starwars" is an AMTA story, I'd say everyone sucks. The OP's frustration is understandable yes but he doesn't need to be an ass about it. The DM should also have tried to deescalate things rather than feed the fire. Critcrab is very right when calling both the OP and the DM the villains here.
I get being annoyed paying $25 just for a Star Wars rehash but I’ve had sessions and stories with friends where we go “Hey wait this is *blank* thing we’re into”
“Yes!”
“Cool”
And then we have a great time doing our version of something that usually, almost always, breaks off into its own thing barely reminiscent of the thing we stole it from
That ain't Darth Vader, that's Daisu Beida 💀
The extremely convincing old man voice you put on for knockoff Kenobi caught me off guard.
The Dm has the morals of palpatine and the body of Jabba
Absolutely vile insult XD
ND JarJar's wit
No that is OP for insinuating that attacking a military fortress is terrorism.
OP is the Sith Lord of that story.
That's too nice man, at least palpatine was smart.
It's true you can't not plagiarize as a DM. My girlfriend last DnD game asked me if I was taking inspiration from underworld. I'm like... what's underworld? It hard not to be similar to something else.
It was a few of years ago, I spent a few weeks working out this adventure for our Star Wars game. Loads of notes, lots of twists, pretty cool. Then like three days before I ran the adventure, an episode of Doctor Who dropped and completely made me look like I was shamelessly ripping them off.
9:40 how did OP throw away the entire hypothetical pizza? Dms literally in charge of the campaign
As a person that has never watched Star Wars, i can confirm that wasn't Darth Vader.
ok i just love how abruptly this video ended. that is comedy gold there to me.
first story yeah i am more on the op's side than the dm's but i wanna know what the other players had to say
I definitely think the player should have stuck out the session. While it’s obvious that the DM was using the story structure of Star Wars, we’ll never know if that was going to be true all the way through to the end. Personally, I kinda want to see it all the way through, to see if he’d do anything different, like the Kenobi character actually being an actual terrorist, and they just kidnapped the princess instead of saving her.
I would have also really liked to see how the DM ran the last act, where the fighters attacked the Death Star. Would it have been changed to an infiltration mission, or would they have to fly in on griffins or something? If the DM pulls out airships or something very similar to the movie, I could see this being a good time to call the DM for copying too much from Star Wars, as they never seemed to use any kind of ship previously.
I also agree with CritCrab that while the OP paid for the game, the other players also paid. Who’s to say they weren’t having fun? If the OP was the only one voicing their dissatisfaction, maybe the other players didn’t mind or even wanted to play this “diet Star Wars”, especially if they weren’t very confident about role playing.
While I can still see the argument that the DM was lazy and just plagiarized Star Wars, I honestly don’t think OP gave him enough of chance to prove that the story was more about than that.
Pretty sure OP questioning Kenobi was giving DM a chance to prove they aren't paying $25 for a cheap reenactment. The DM responses being salty rage at being called out doesn't really build trust in a potential twist worth waiting for. Though true on OP not really considering how the other players felt about the campaign and arguments, that damages their side. Honestly trusting DM feels like falling into the mood tabletop horror story trap of "hopefully it'll improve" until you realize you're better off leaving, especially since these are costing money.
@@ArcCaravan Except didn't give salty rage just point out the flaws in OP's logic.
Hah! One of my friends has been working on the UI for dungeon full dive, nice to see it here
Great stories by the way! Favourite one is the noob one, sometimes you need a bit of tough love
Thanks for the upload crab Daddy
I read a fantastic "Murder Hobo Deterrent" BBEG thing but can't remember where. It was a flying, slef-wielding enchanted sword that gained +1 damage for everything the party killed during the campaign. The more things you kill, the more damage this thing will do to you and your friends.
What makes the death star cool?
First: Giant killing machine
Second: 2 meter exhaust port flaw
Third: "Thats no moon...."
Agree but just for exercise sake, to abstract that
3. A base or machine so massive that it initially looks like just a piece of the scenery that the base or machine is on, not the machine itself with the slowly dawning realization that
1. This is a murder machine on a scale so unfathomably big it's way more than the characters bargained for and fills them with dread but
2. There's a small and unassuming weakness that normally would be overlooked, but might be leveraged for a risky and daring plan to use it in an unconventional way to destroy the machine through guile and determination Rather than brute force
@@GeneralArin right on the money with this. It's the perfect kind of thing to put into your own game!
Years ago I had a friend who as a great GM and group of friends/players. We played many TTRPGs together including D&D, Cyberpunk 2020, Rifts and GURPS, amongst others.
Within GURPS we used the Discworld supplement (we were all fans of the late great Sir Terry Pratchett). then with in that he ran 2 really good campaigns one based on Star Wars and one based on superheroes (10 years pre the beginning of the MCU) and we has a ball playing both. It did help we were prewarned about themes and were totally on board.
Story 1: yes the DM not being original sucks but OP could have left after session 1 instead of sticking around. $25 isnt a lot long term and if the other players like it then OP is the odd man out and a total Ahole
Story 2: gave me an idea, nobles have magic items to protect themselves or are skilled themselves. Like a necklace that has a modified faeire fire that marks you and every guard has your picture sent directly to them. And a ring that has a high end life transference, where the damage done to the attacker is sent to the noble for heals. And maybe a ring of teleport or misty step for good measure. Nobles make bank, show it.
3rd: sorry DM its your name now
Yeah that 1st story is................... if i knew my DM was getting several hundred dollars to run a campaign (the story indicates it was $25 a session and would be multiple sessions) while he was literally just reskinning a movie instead of using some creativity(edit: and it wasn't advertised beforehand, like in session 0) i'd want out by session 2 as well. If it was a forever/free DM i'd just try and have fun with it.
You know its a good day when critcrab uploads
I did a post apocalyptical campaign, was intentionally loaded with cameos of unimportant characters from Water World, Mad Max, and other various films. The group loved interacting with these bizarre knock-offs and even begged to see certain archetypes in others. The game wound up going for almost a year in which the group had their own compound and a series of said characters hired out in different posts, the ones they didn't slaughter anyhow.
The entire campaign had none of these characters, but the scenes such as the aircraft carrier stuck and shored, used as a fortress provided a perfect opportunity for "6 inches of the black goo left!" from a small man on a raft floating in a mass of black liquid located at the bottom of the base. It was those references and jokes that made that campaign something we all still talk about when seeing each other again after time has passed.
First story, I don't think you can really compare it everyone chipping in and getting a pepperoni pizza. It's like paying for something fancy together and what you get is a knock off from Temu. He paid $25 and got knock of Star Wars. While I wouldn't say it excuses OP's behavior, he is entitled to something better for that kind of money and so does the rest of the party.
Yeah my thoughts exactly, if we wanna go back to the pizza analogy it's like paying for a pepperoni and then expecting to be happy when they bring you a Hawaiian pizza instead. I don't see the OP having done much wrong to be honest, especially when there's a not insubstantial amount of money involved.
I think it would be different if OP had left earlier when he realized the game wasn't for him but he instead spent the whole time trying to detail it and complain at every chance, to me those behaviors make him a problem and fits the everyone chipped in for a pizza and he didn't like pepperoni
@@RazzleTheRed1More like you hound them to deliver a fucking pizza to your house they can't effing find it, Pizza Hut and Dominoes BOTH can't find a tree in a forest cause of their shitty GPS. Been ordering Pizzas for a very long time then all of a sudden it's like they are afraid to deliver, and then BLAME you and tell you not to ever call them again, blacklisted. Fuck Pizza make that shit yourself. OR you find a good place and then all of a sudden their pizza prices SKYROCKET even before the actual inflation. Like I said fk pizza places they are ALL a scam.
Never you mind Door Dash and Uber Eats being shit.
I'm guessing for OP to be considered less guilty they'd have to try getting the refund before he got kicked or considered the other players' opinions on the standard knock-off.
Or in the pizza analogy, don't disturb everyone else's meal until you get thrown out the pizzeria.
Some of the most fun I’ve had playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was during the “1st edition (the AD&D hardback game), in the Grayhawk setting.
A module called “The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror”.
It was an inspired re-envisioning of the “Alice in Wonderland” story involving various trials and tribulations that were automatically integrated into that story.
Lots of fun noticing recognizable features and overcoming game related traps, puzzles, and combat.
Edited to add: “Winning DND”, had a similar situation many years ago in which the plot-NPC was killed by a dunderific-duo of murder hobos (though we didn’t know/use that terminology yet), so the DM made him into a revenant that could not rest until it’s objective was completed or it had murdered both of its killers.
Made for an interesting game in which the two murder hobos kept screaming at the party to ‘protect them, protect them’ that they were innocent and ‘it’s just a game!’
I feel the last guy, and I have to go through some similar and its the most annoyingest shit in the world
You know...if the DM was worth his salt, he would turn the plot of A New Hope on its head.
What if Luke said screw it and joined the Empire?
Instead of Luke Skywalker he becomes Grand Admiral Thrawn.
The first story... Honestly, the main mistakes the GM commited was not kicking the OP earlier and not giving them their money back.
Other than that, the fault is completely on the OP, a complete ass.
Completely agree. As soon as I heard the "I'm just brutally honest," I knew that OP was being an ass. You can have legitimate frustrations but being massively dramatic about it won't yield the results you want.
Since were only getting OP's version, I'm curious as to how much it actually was "just Star Wars". I feel like a lot of people today are quick to jump on someone for being just like xyz no matter how close it is or not
I disagree with giving OP their money back. If he has just left? Sure, but ruining the game for the other paying players? Consider it an asshole tax.
5:08 That's quite true. Honestly, one highlight of a campain I was in was when my character had an infighting with the party because we were looking for a way to find a way to cheer up a king whose wife had died. While looking for it, we found out a place where wishes came true, but only one could be given every 100 years. My elf had been going along and looking to avenge his son, who was killed by a traitor, but when he heard that a wish could be given, he started to think he could finally amend his mistake and make up for the grief that caused to his wife (my character had a lot of guilt for it, and the fact that the wish could be given every 100 years meant that this was the only time for him to do it, since his wife was human, and would mean that she would die before seeing their son again). It was a really intense moment where after them trying to avoid him taking the wish, he almost ends up leaving the party (it would've also been in vain, because the wish had a lot of restrictions, so he would've betrayed the party in the same way he was betrayed by his former friend, which was quite a tragic irony, but guilt and sadness had been eating him away for five years while he tried to find his son's murderer, so, the idea of having to wait another hundred years like that would've been like torture for him). Don't be scared about characters arguing and being in oposition from time to time, because they can lead to fantastic roleplay moments, and it's not like arguing in character means that you are angry at the other players or anything
In story one, OP is absolutely the problem player. We didn't get the perspective of a single other player, OP could have been the only one who had a problem!
DM didn't act much better, especially since OP paid money only to get an unsatisfactory knockoff.
@@ArcCaravanI don't know man... it seems to me the OP might just be an ass. Picking a few tropes and blaming the DM of copying star wars.
If anything, he could have just left the game quietly and asked a refund without bothering the other players.
@@Chatedh True, though DM also could have tried solving it peacefully instead of saying "quit criticizing my completely original game you paid for or screw off". It's not even a few tropes, it was all just a lazy Star Wars reenactment that refused a legitimate alternative choice. Nothing was stopping the DM from admitting it's obviously Star Wars or just running a module. Personally the fact the DM got $125 dollars for this is what bugs me most, like it would not be nearly as bad if it was free. Both sides are being scummy here.
Nothing wrong pulling from media. I am in one group where we have 2 dms. One runs a pretty standard game but doesnt always have time to plan a session. The 2nd dm usuall then jumps in with an improvised game. our 2nd dm bases every improv session after a different movie. Part of the fun is guessing what movie were in. If we guess and can sneak in a quote from the correct movie, we get inspiration. So far we've done die hard, home alone, back to the future and clue. It's been a blast.
New Video nice, though maybe up the Mic Volume next time XD
had to put you from 20% Video volume to 100% :P
Noted. Thanks! ✍️🦀
This came out perfectly since in two weeks we i start a Star Wars campaign set during the Old Republic setting.
Players are - Zamzu the Jawa Scout.
Togal the Hurglic Engineer.
Paige the Deveronian Bounty Hunter
Quinn Hansen the Twi'lek Pilot
And Aina the Human Urchain with a cybernetic left hand and left eye.
That infographic you're referring to, Critcrab, is the meta narrative of the "Hero's Journey", which is a framework for a story that is about as old as time itself. Or at least, as old as humanity's art of storytelling. The Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest piece of litterature, arguably fits this framework as well.
Edit: And a few minutes later he namedrops it as well. Seems my explanation was not needed !
Uh, the Hero's Journey was made up by one dude who crowbarred countless stories that were nothing alike to fit his preconceptions of a nonexistent monomyth. Only modern stories resemble it closely, and that's because modern authors use it as framework.
@@etcetera1995Yep. The biggest mistake you can make is to buy into the idea that the "Hero's Journey" is so fundamental. There do exist other story structures, and no true "monomyth" exists. As it happens, the "Hero's Journey" became so mainstream partly because Lucas claimed he used it for Star Wars, IIRC.
I had a DM who stole some ideas from a book series I'd never heard of. When my character became a paladin he litterally took an oath that was word for word from the book. When I learned this I wasn't upset I actaully immediately found myself attached to the character who held this. Oath it was less "omg can't believe my dm did this:l" and more "hey I remember this! Oh wow this guy's like I was!"
The DM from the first story lowkey sounds like a scammer: Bland campaign, dishonest narrative, no refunds, and it stopped halfway through the first session. If anyone sold a product or service other than a TTRPG campaign in this same manner they would be called a scammer and would potentially have been sued
@xryeau_1760 It's exactly why I would NEVER pay a DM I don't know to run a game for me. Nothing is stopping them from running off with your money nor does anything promise they'll live up to their price. No boss nor guild to answer to, no promise of a refund, an because an RP session has subjective quality, it's not possible to objectifly claim "Your honor, this man gave me a bad session and owes me my money back!" Den of the Drake once said one's DMing style isn't something you can really market because even if you're a good DM, your style might not be something a paying player might enjoy. An LSG is better, at least a DM there has to answer to a store owner since no SO will tolerate their customers being short handed.
I’d actually argue that the OP is in the wrong.
We’re hearing their biased POV, and only their POV.
OP didn’t ask anyone else if they were having fun. And when they called the DM “Arbitrator of Fun”, they themselves were being the same thing they were accusing the DM of.
OP probably killed the enjoyment of the story for the DM, and the players. Notice how when he talked to his buddy all he said was “the game didn’t pick up after that session”. Like- was it because the players decided to leave? Or was it because the DM just ruined the story for the rest of the party?
Like… Yeah, ripping of star wars isn’t the most original thing, but like… what is? Stars War is just one of a million retellings of the Heroes Journey. It itself isn’t original.
But is that an excuse? No… not really… but if the rest of the party doesn’t have an issue with it, then go up to the dm in private say, “hey, this isn’t what I was expecting, and I would like my money back please.” Instead of causing a scene.
For the noob murderhobbo story i compare it to myself during work and whenever i have to take care of a kid or just found one by chance while walking on the street
With the former i respond with a punch directed to their face while i go easy on the later telling them to cut it or calm down
Reason? Well... My coworkers are full grown adults and should be able to understand when they cross the line and how to behave (specially at work), meanwhile a child is ignorant to those things
One is being annoying on purpose or at least being negligent while the other is doing it without bad intentions
Won't deny that the DM is a plagiarist, but OP sounds like a jerk. If he's not enjoying the fact that the DM is copying Star Wars, just leave after Session 1. Don't continue to pay and play, don't get in some snark war to try and own the DM, just leave.
And the fact that 1. There's nothing on whether the other players enjoyed the game or not and 2. The game ended after he confronted the DM on Darth Vader, don't make OP look any better
About the whole stealing thing. My DM stole his base plot from the first Borderlands game. We figured that out pretty quick and we all had a great laugh about it. He didn't mind. He laughed with us. We still play in that campaign and have the time of our lives.
I absolutely hate it when people say "I'm just brutally honest." I just say "no you're an asshole and you just don't like people saying you are."
Dm: wanna play through a plot like star wars?
Me: ooh, sounds like fun!
Dang Critcrab where have you been. It's been over a month, I was worried about you.
It's been wild out here man haha. Lots of new videos rapid firing this month tho 🦀👍
The last story+outtro were perfect. Total chef's kiss
OP sounded like the most annoying player ever. Really hope the DM has good games in the future without OP
If everybody chips in for a pizza you don't get to throw it away because you don't like pepperoni.
But if you're not going to eat pepperoni pizza they shouldn't ask you to pitch in for the double pepperoni thin crust
"I'm brutally honest [...], That's just who I am."
Oh boy
For what it’s worth, I’d have been pissed too. But honestly not as pissed off as OP. I’d have least stuck around to see how the climactic TIE- Fighter Vs X-Wing climax would play out in a D&D setting.
Also, as the Bible states in Ecclesiastes 1:9- “ All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing. 9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” So even in historical times, it was known that nothing is truly original
As a sw fan i can say…. This man is a absolute legend!
I had to check and make sure I wasn't watching a Karl Jobst video when I heard those words in my head.
Which one, DM or OP. They don't feel as legendary as the player who kamikazed a not-SW campaign the rest of the players disliked.
No as a fan this dude is the a-hole. The moment you pull the t-word card related to the plot of A New Hope, you lose me. It doesn't match the definition of terrorism at all.
I'm guessing that argument was a bluff to test if the campaign was prepared for different choices beyond the movie.@@emberfist8347
@@ArcCaravanNowhere does it state the rest of the players were not enjoying the game.
i only re-use movie plots for my campaigns, it's up to the players if they want to follow the film or figure out what else they can do.
7:06 there you go, OP is that guy, and decided to ruin the game for everyone.
Honestly one of my favorite things is making characters based on other established characters and having my dm guess who they are based on. I can’t imagine what’s the fun in basically making a 1:1 copy of Star Wars without mixing it up abit.
Once a comic book writer said "don't copy, steal, if you copy, it will show, instead, take the concept, the idea, and what you like from the original, then present it your own way" that's what this GM was lacking, worst thing is that it was charging for a copy-paste game.
I agree that those "brutally honest" people tend to use it as a shield for being jerks, but sometimes you have to be a jerk to be heard...
But do you really need to be heard.
For instance I have never watched Star wars and therefore would probably enjoy this game and maybe some people do dream of wanting to play Star wars and are having fun nobody else in the group was complaining and if he wanted to leave he could have when the DM gave him the opportunity to instead of just staying there just to make snarky comments at everybody and ruin the game for everybody else.
@@lahlybird895 I'm not talking about op here. About op, i wasn't saying he was ok in doing it, op should have talked privately, the gm should have also talked on the side and offered an out in better terms, the dm got stubborn on keeping his game and op got dense on not wanting that game resulting in a clash.
@@Martin_Dimirag ok fair enough.
If you want to find a great example of a D&D rules inspired game taking inspiration from the original Star Wars plot, look no further than Knights of the Old Republic 1. The game starts out with the good guy ship being attacked, but the main hero has to fight his way off the ship. The princess has been replaced by a talented but overconfident Jedi who has been captured by gangsters. Then later on the Death Star has been replaced in the plot by the Star Forge, a massive space factory instead of a super weapon. And instead revealing that the big bad was related the main hero, the main hero learns they were once the big bad's mentor and friend.
Its enough to follow the same story beets but made the story feel fresh at the time too.
Hey look, a story from the players perspective where they still make themselves out to be the dick. What a rare treat.
Even better when both sides are horrible.
I'm definitely going to refer to myself as the Dungeon Daddy next time I host a Campaign...
The first guy didn't do anything wrong. It's illegal to charge money for plagiarized material, and that was the most blatantly plagiarized material I have ever seen. If I were him, since the DM clearly had no intention of doing anything original, I would have used my knowledge of Star Wars to change the plot. Tell the princess that the "black knight" is her real father, tell Not-Vader that he shouldn't destroy his daughter's adopted home since it'll just create martyrs for the rebels to rally around, and that he should choose his kids over the emperor before it's too late because it's what his wife would have wanted, and, of course, make sure whoever the DM's Luke is doesn't make out with the princess (that was the one problem I had throughout all six movies).
You cannot plagiarize a plot. The dm changed all propper nouns, people, places, and things. Heck, if he wrote it down he could legally sell it. You come closer to plagurization when you run a d&d game while calling the eye stalk floating head a "beholder." Even so, he is not replicating a work, just referencing it, hence falls under parody; like "Space Balls." D&D even does this a lot in current publications; ie the sun sword from CoS is a light saber.
Also, armored magic user with a firey sword is in the monster manual under "death knight." Not sure op is aware if the dm is using a classic monster or has a star wars reference.
I will say too that the plot cannot be the same if the characters make different choices; ie, not dressing as guards to get the princess out, not fleeing through the trash, and there did not appear to be an "old Ben" dm PC or else the op would have complained about it. If it is too close to star wars, it is equal parts on the players here.
Technically, Lucas plagiarized the plot himself, just changing a bunch of proper names and adding space themes.
@@SithBunny1 You don't seem to know what plagiarism is.
I know this is semantics but Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan not Vader.
Well that's meta gaming. I would've just asked for a refund
They infiltrate the fortress and make their way to the prison level, I mean dungeon, and find the princess in cell 2187, and when he sees the princess, OP says "Hey, you look just like my sister!"
First story, guy you are the player. You have the agency, make the story about whatever you want. So what if it is Star Wars? DM did you a favor by dropping you in a familiar world and plot that you know so you don't have to expend extra brain power on that part. Use that free capital to exercise your agency within this framework. What if Luke decided to team up with his father overthrow the Empire to establish themselves as the ruling Dynasty? What if he decided to for go the rebellion completely and go full space pirate with Solo? Go ham.
I think that was the issue with the DM. OP did start playing into that, but the DM essentially said “follow the story or leave.”
It wouldn’t have been too bad, but it seems the DM was pretty bent on railroading.