IMPORTANT UPDATE: The designs in this video are all deprecated. The tactic of jammer cloaking stealth missiles has been significantly nerfed and doesn't require such a laser focused strategy to deal with anymore. Stacking two of the same missile components now has strong diminishing returns, certain point defenses are not as affected by jamming (aurora pdts specifically are great against these missiles, they mostly react in time even when jammed), and the new faction has a specific countermeasure that can jam optical guided missiles. Such is the reality of a game still in active development, and these are devs who pay attention.
@@themaninlegocity5074 As far as I can tell it still does what I designed it to do, but I don't think it would be very useful anymore. Too much of the design is dedicated to defeating the stealth missiles, and there's way more simple, cost effective ways of doing so now. I think it would be rare to encounter them anymore regardless and you'd be left with a weaker weapon loadout than if you made a more generalist ship.
Welcome to my Ted Talk: I have made an unstoppable missile Welcome to my Ted Talk part two: I have made the perfect missile killer that stops the unstoppable missile
the united states development loop "I have created an unstoppable weapons system that can defeat even our own defenses" "wait crap our enemies might use this against us." "i have constructed an undefeatable defense against this weapons system."
This was hilarious because it's starting to aproach real world surface warfare concepts. Turns out that missiles are pretty great counters to missiles. Now if only you could have autonomous mesh networked drones that can use tight beam lasers in line of sight for undetectable, uninterruptable communication for recon, targeting and weapons delivery purposes then we would be approaching freaky status
What I love about the level of customization of this game combined with the freedom of movement in its gameplay is that I'm already getting ideas of how to counter this counter. Just like the real-life cat and mouse chase of weapons development
I can't wait for that multiplayer campaign mode they talked about in their design docs, the arms race for weapon loadouts that counter known ship classes over the course of a war is going to be crazy.
I'm impressed you've got this level of success so soon after picking up the game. I'm new as well, but it all feels rather overwhelming and intimidating.
I've been min-maxing vehicle loadouts in weird sci-fi simulator games since I was a little boy playing Mechwarrior 3, so maybe my brain is just wired for this kind of thing forever now. This is an exceptionally intricate game though, I'm so impressed by it.
So I must say, lovely work, the double stealth missile is something I made as a joke about 20 minutes after the update dropped and paired with the jamming screen I always used to use on missile salvos also discoverd just how... wildly good they are. Like, if I aim right, I have yet to not score a hit with one. The one thing I feel is that the panopticon, while it does certainly eat stealth missiles for breakfast, feels like the kind of... I dunno metagame win the stealth missiles cause? I'm not sure how to describe it. Like, if by bringing stealth missiles I'm forcing you to spend more points than I do to hopefully be able to kill my missiles, I can use the rest of my points to just bring another gun boat. Idk, I love the idea, it's a 10/10 name, I just think the concept could use to be maybe... cheaper? and downscalabe to be effectively used on other ships. The bloodhound is more or less the standard AMM I use but... I'm not sure. Bringing that many of them to counter this specific thing feels, excesive, and still allows other ships to be eaten by them. I dunno, sorry for the ramble, just my two cents I wanted to put out there Also just in my experience I've found corkscrew on hybrids, especially as unmaneuverable a one as the icepick, to be generally less than worth it. But ymmv so like, I dunno. Let me know if you've also noticed them causing misses on moving targets All in all, lovely video, great content, I really hope to see more people make videos like this. (You also have a great voice, it's really nice)
Thank you for your kind words. This is the first video I've made where I wrote a script and did a voice over, so I'm glad it went over well. After some more thought, I agree that the amount and expense of the amms on this ship are a little overkill and I've already made some tweaks to the loadout, specifically to be more capable of dealing with spammed cheap missiles; I've swapped out some of the Bloodhounds with half price normal flak versions that are used against size 2 missiles only, then used the extra points to give the support frigate two auroras and a defender. I figure more conventional point defense is always welcome, and elint stuff could be handled by other ships on the team, the frigate just has to hold hands with the cruiser and provide that spyglass radar. As far as I can tell, the rest of the loadout is useful regardless of if there are any stealth missiles to defend against. Someone's always gonna be carrying a jammer, and if not I can light stuff with the spotlights and use the Wardialers like a normal SA missile, despite being cheap, they still have a very effective payload if they manage to hit something. There's also always the guns to fall back on when everything's empty, though obviously not as useful as if they were on a more gun focused ship with ammo elevators and the like. Hopefully her extreme point defense capabilities have eaten a bunch of points worth of expensive missiles when everything's shaken out and dealt some crippling blows to expensive ships using icepicks. Speaking of which, I think you'd be surprised at the effectiveness of the Icepick. For instance, a volley of four icepicks just walks right through a PD consisting of 2 auroras, one defender, and three stonewalls with no losses, and a lot of that is thanks to the corkscrew just completely nullifying the effectiveness of ballistic type PD. The only things they fear are 2+ sarissa, massed auroras, and long range AMMs; they can tank a single sarissa shot without dying thanks to the armor plating. Even the Panopticon and it's escort together can BARELY defeat a full volley of it's own missiles from mid range; if they're fired from within 6km then good luck lmao you better hope you have like 7 auroras nearby, they're like little juggernauts.
@@Chimerathon Huh, I must have to give the icepick a try then, every S3H I've given a terminal maneuver to has had a like, 40%+ miss rate. I appreciate the really indepth reply and agree in whole with your points. Can't wait to see more of your stuff!
I'm glad someone appreciated that, yes the word is derived from the greek word "panoptes", which means "all seeing". A panopticon is actually a design of prison in which the cells are arrayed in a circle around a central guard tower, allowing one guard to theoretically watch every prisoner from the same location. The prisoners can't tell what direction the guard is watching though because the windows on the tower are blackened, giving them all the sensation that they are being watched at all times. Also, a "wardialer" is an old hacker technique from the times of dialup modems that involves automated dialing of a list of telephone numbers to search for modems connected to the internet.
I built something like this in the opposite direction. A long range missile which before entering PD range splits into like 10 very small very fast missiles and I think a couple of dummy ones to draw fire. The missile spreads the submunitions out into a large cone faceing the target . Very satisfying to watch
Excellent video! Would love too see some more in depth breakdowns of your designs/ general component optimization for different ship class / builds. Subscribed!
This is well engineered! I love it. I spent a lot of time working out ways to kill the double stealth automatically and manually, this is a much more comprehensive solution then I managed!
Can’t wait for the devs to look at this and either HEAVILY rework the stealth coating or buff PD. EDIT: Also, digging the Ace Combat 7 OST in the background. Love it!
If they use EO homing (which they better since anything else is pretty vulnerable to decoys and jamming), it's gonna home on the first ship it sees. Ergo, the easiest counter to such missile strikes is simply having sacrificial/PD picket ships in your fleet positioned in front of the actually valuable ones. Their cost is likely to be far lower than the cost of enemy missiles+carriers.
This is partially true, but something many people don't know is that EO seekers are capable of discerning between different classes of ship if you fire them at a track that has a high enough intelligence value. So actually, the stealth missile attacker can wait until the name and class of the enemy ship is revealed by intelligence gathering and then fire at the most valuable target. If you fire them at a verified heavy cruiser for example, the seeker will ignore any nearby target that is not a heavy cruiser. It's pretty cool, but somewhat impractical since people don't tend to invest points into intel, which makes identifying tracks take a pretty long time.
@@Chimerathon Cool, didn't know that. BTW my picket ships are frigs with 3x dual 120mm, a blanket jammer, and 11km radar. I tend to slap on some ammo elevators as well. Total cost about 400 points, defeat most missile spam via HE-RPF fires, jam the enemy, and if I lose one or both of those pickets to a concentrated strike its nbd that's what they are for.
It's possible to make the Bloodhound a 2 point missile, as EL Payload doesn't do nearly as much as they should. I'd also personally recommend remove the terminal maneuver. At the speed S3H missiles use, nearly any terminal maneuvers will cause a miss 2/3 times
I'm loving semi active missiles right now, got my OSP freighter carrying over sixty crates at only 2pts a crate with a shuttle to illuminate for it. Keeps the pressure up all game long
Dude! keep going! 😁😁😄😄 this video is excellent, hits all the right notes and is well edited. Your growing mastery of this niche game is exactly what youtube is here for. o7
I am here, thinking on playing this game i got on the library waiting, pretending i understand this complex missiles stuff. Somehow enjoying the video.
Thanks, man! I recently faced a monsterous stealth fleet with seemingly un-counterable hybrids. I will definately integrate some of these points in to my missile CL task force.
I just bought the game lastnight before going to sleep. With the plethora of videos out this looks like it should be fun. Ohh, and consuming of time and thoughts of what to build.
Oh wow this game looks incredible. I'm typically less of a fan of space, especially for this sort of game, but everything else just looks so perfect towards what I enjoy that there's no way I can pass it up.
I never really played it for more than a few hours, but I will always feel a little weird about this game because I know the people who made it, and what "lore" exists in the game is for the most part full of tounge in cheek references to a bunch of "clan drama" that went on in second life 10-15 years ago. that always makes me laugh a little.
so with a perfect purpose built counter *and* the knowledge beforehand that your opponent is going to deploy this exact strategy, it can be countered. Perfectly reasonable
I'm mixed on a toggle being added to swap hot and cold launch. I don't think it would be game breaking but at the same time it is a meaningful choice that can radically alter how you play a ship.
About a month after this came out, the technique was nerfed. It is still effective and has been somewhat brought back by very recent buffs to sarrissa pd turrets
Its a great concept but at that point you're bringing a ship specifically geared to defeat a specific class of missile when those points could be allocated elsewhere. Good solution if you're stuck with an opponent like me who absolutely loves the double stealth S3 hybrid, but not very viable if i decide to switch it up. It also seems to be reliant on you knowing the time and direction of the attack. Although i will say i love the Wardialer, have been struggling to think of decent uses to have a second sensor not used for validation.
As someone who spends likely too many points on 'traditional' PD - that missile terrifies me. I'd be interested to see if adding adaptive sensors changes anything with regards to picking the stealth missiles up - I've been churning out designs for escort fleets for the last little while but admittedly I haven't been doing much in the way of scientific testing. More along the lines of "Can it survive my friend's missile whaling fleet" A great and enlightening video. Thanks for sharing.
This is essentially what some people call blindfire or deadfire air defense. Instead of giving it a target in particular, send it out with sensors slashing and have it engage whatever the hell it sees.
Great video, always nice to have examples and footage to look at trying to learn the more advanced stuff in this game. Also when you said "this is the panopticon" I literally heard the "this is the mothership" line from the homeworld one officer. Have you thought about voice acting for games?
dude make more videos on your designs and tactics I find it very useful for my autistic condition of expending more time designing and testing shit in Nebulous than actually playing...
1 downsides to this is that you have to know beforehand your enemy will be using these missiles, as preemptively dumping your missile racks to counter what you think MIGHT be stealth missiles (as the only real "warning" is being jammed which is going to happen with pretty much any missile attack anyway) isn't a viable option. I would imagine you could initially confirm the use of stealth missiles by firing a starting salvo towards jamming, see if they hit any missiles, and continue for as long as ammo allows. But then the question is raised how many should you include in the salvo? Too few and you'll miss too many and die. Too many and you burn thru your magazines too quick and die. Very tricky situation. Visual confirmation is definitely your biggest friend in fighting against these things.
Air Defense Cruiser is awesome isn't it.. ^^ you can literally watch them burn all their VLS ammo, then take them down with next to no effort like that.
This game is incredibly cool and well made. I picked it up on early access launch played a couple games and got dumpster'd. I decided I'll play it when there is a campaign, some of the sweaties in this game remind me of the times I've played WG: Red Dragon. It's the kind of game I enjoy watching not playing.
Sure, but give me a few more days I'd say. I'm still fiddling with the dials to get this fleet to be as effective as possible. Like, the frigate is almost completely different from in the video now lol. I think I'm close though.
just a thought if you can add something similar to a shrapnel shell ( 1500+ fragments ) with luminous fragments and make it rapid fire so you could get a bunch off per second it would be extremely cheap and you could see the hitting an enemy no matter what stealth it had and say a 150g fragment hitting a hull at 2500m/s would still do some damage in addition to showing position
@@henryhamilton4087 not the missiles but the ship firing them which will take at least a few hits from 35 shells in 60 seconds with 1500 projectiles each with AI assisted cameras
This would still be counterable by simply timing the jammer so that it hits when the missile is about halfway. I don't think most players can react that quickly by turning on their illuminator, allocate missiles, wait for missile to be programmed, and fire it if you jam right before the missile is detected
It's true, this defense is difficult to pull off on the fly, and waiting to activate the jammer is pretty dirty. The bright side is that tactic could only be performed between 6km and 10km distance. Any closer and ship sensors would detect the missiles and launch interceptors automatically, easily defeating the volley, any further and the jammer can't reach. There's also no reason to do that unless shooting specifically at this ship, normal ships are unlikely to be able to defend like this because it requires custom pd missiles and a lot of missile programming channels.
It can be overwhelming at first but you dont have to engage with all the mechanics at once you can make a perfectly viable fleet just with ships that have normal guns and nothing else
Wow I'm on like day two of this game. Incredibly complex! Your brain is bigger then mine.For the science! If you ever need a test dummy let me know lol
Wow this is such a great counter, all you need is: 1. The enemy not jamming you first. 2. You being able to counter jam the enemy in time and using a proper vector. 3. Expensive 4-point PD missile manual spam into space. 4. The missile cruisers being an LC fleet and not a more optimized HC setup (lmao seriously?). 5. A completely un-realistic stealth missile playstyle. In real games against real players the stealth missile cruiser fleet will send 2-3 probing hybrids to figure out what the ship they are firing at is and what it's defenses are. After that they will properly adjust the amount of salvos per ship and ships per fleet as well as a rough time-estimate of how long they will be out of cover of missile fire. This means that your PD spam even when it works would be extremely wasteful since the salvos will be seperated by long distances.
I wonder if it's possible to make a ship with enough speed to be able to out fight larger heavy ships due to their inability to track, rotate, and respond.
LCs are fast enough to stay at medium range when fighting HCs and BBs. Requires a lot of micro and constant changing of movement + specialized acceleration setup, but when done correctly the HCs and BBs using rails or cannons can never hit the LC group. This is one of the single most infuriating things to fight against.
From looking at the stats, the extended lethality on the size 1 AMMs doesn’t seem to have much of an advantage over the standard blast fragmentation, while still being much more expensive. Is there something I’m missing?
If you read the description of the frag payload it explains that "the effectiveness of the warhead is inversely related to the relative velocity of the missile and target at the time of intercept"; in other words, intercepting a missile that is moving faster than the interceptor makes it less likely that the intercept will do its full damage. The EL payload makes PD missiles much more lethal against faster targets, like a sprinting hybrid missile for instance, which is what I'm aiming to defeat at all costs. You could save ~200 points on PD missiles for this loadout by switching to regular frag payload, but if it comes at the cost of reliability then there's no point. That's my thought process anyway, letting 1 or 2 out of 7 missiles through might be worth it for a better equipped or heavier escort ship, it depends on your priorities. I wanted this ship to be neigh impenetrable to missiles, so I went all in.
@@Chimerathon Ah, I didn’t know about that speed feature so the el makes alot more sense now. Out of curiosity, did you test the el vs the standard or are going off stats alone?
@@graysuka Yep, the difference in effectiveness is stark. If I swap to normal flak payload the PD missiles struggle to kill even half a volley, even while not being jammed, unless they manage to intercept them all in cruise phase which would be extremely difficult to pull off against stealth missiles cloaked by jamming. You'd have to max out the payload size and adjust the fuel so they have about 5000m range, which makes them much slower and less maneuverable, completely unable to kill any sprinting hybrid. You do give me an idea for min-maxing though: I could make a block II version of the bloodhound with normal flak payload and adjust their firing doctrine so that they only fire against size 2 missiles, then swap 30 or 40 of them in to save a few points on intercepting cheap missiles. Hmm... I don't know if it's worth the risk to save 80 points, maybe that's dumb.
Yo, the title is Fleet Command, your profile pic is Dead-Eye Flint, and your channel banner is BattleTech. Are you trying to make me, specifically, subscribe? Because it worked.
Так а в чем проблема использовать инфракрасное наведение? Или его нет в игре? и как второй вариант - это Флак заграждение. Взрывами создавать бесполетную зону
He said the Stealth missiles arrive without warning and when you do see them it's too late. He couldn't get point defense cannons online so the thing to do was fire anti missile missiles to go and look for the Stealth missiles
I don't know anything about this game. From the description of the objective "Find stealthy thing", it seems like the easiest way to detect it is to get something past it, then broadcast something toward your own sensors to backlight it. Sensitivity will increase proportionally with the size of your sensor array, since you can measure more angles for disturbances. Essentially, if it insists on being invisible, then illuminate everything - preferably with a spectrum and modulated codes that only you would know - and search for what's *not* there by missing chunks, refraction (from rebroadcast), etc.... If that feature exist in what seems like a rather customizable game, then the real world motivation for such a suite would be its simplicity and low cost. You can test it yourself at home with a basic polar tracking mount, set to follow regular broadcast satellites by their published schedules for the orbital segments that cross known air traffic routes (for demonstration, this is plenty), slap a directional antenna on it, and set it to trigger a coaxial-mounted camera whenever it detects a sudden signal dip. It's not that different than how exoplanets are found and measured by watching for dips in distant star brightness, so you know it's going to be wicked easy to spot the phase deviation from a carbon fiber drone from LEO or GSO wide-beam broadcasts.
The main problem is a complete blackout attack. By attacking with a Hangup jammer, you prevent the jammed ship from receiving transmissions from all suites currently in the game. This neutralizes cooperative engagement capabilities, making it impossible to spot with one ship shoot with another. Paired with a Blanket barrage jammer, you prevent the ship from receiving RADAR returns. This makes the ship functionally blind, unable to rely on offboard or engage with its own long and short range air defense, or terminal air defense. Out of hand I think that throwing two spotlights at the issue paired with long range interceptors *might* solve the problem?
@@KoishiVibin The in-game "hangup jammer" sounds like yee olde computer networking attacks, that send messages equivalent to "nothing is here" to cause the receiving computer to quit searching... That doesn't sound viable in a radar simulation, where the RF energy itself is scrutinized. A noise broadcast from a source beyond the missile you're trying to detect should actually make it easier to employ a passive radar strategy. It's not so common in real-world applications (besides the aforementioned exoplanet research), because you either need something else to illuminate a target from your own side, (actually in use, but requires a network of receivers to sort targets from chaff), or an illuminator that is effectively within or past the enemy front line. So, good for passive targeting (and rather stealthy), and gains in effectiveness with the total RF energy backlighting the target (as you're looking for that occlusion of the emitter to betray the location of a stealth object, and comparing multiple linked sensors will allow you to easily discard a spoofed hit.
@@buckstarchaser2376 the hangup I believe is supposed to jam around the same frequency information is sent, just like a radar jammer only different frequency. also, the problem with sending something in front of the incoming missiles is that in real games there are a lot of very large asteroids that function as cover, and if you have your ship next to an asteroid in case someone with guns comes along, you can't afford to keep a scout ship further past the asteroid. You also run into the problem of your scout ship getting destroyed very quickly as it will be cheap and small, and the next volley of missiles can be set to pass it and go for the main ship that way they don't slam into the dead ship.
Umm i got a missiles that i havent tried in MP, i called it "Vampir" size 2 missile. Basically antirad missile that silenced any shouter. It had 3km sprint range at 500m/s with stealth coating. The idea is if the target want to detect it with radar they r dead, if they try to jam they r dead, and the only way for them to reliably live is just shut everything off and pray. It have nice hit rate due to it being stealthy and have passive detector. Problem is the damage, is it better to use HE or penetrator HE?
My original idea for killing jammers was to use hybrid missiles as well (the clip at the end of the video shows those original missiles working), and on testing I found that they worked great at close range but if I launched them at distant targets they would prematurely enter sprint and run out of fuel before reaching the target. I think the home-on-jam seeker is bugged on hybrids, so I went back to the drawing board. As for the payload, I'd say a size 2 hybrid probably should use the penetrator head if you want it to do any kind of serious damage to heavier craft like cruisers and battleships, but that gets pretty pricey for a missile that you can only use against jammers. I haven't done much testing on the capabilities of size 2 hybrids yet though, so you might know better than I do if you've been fiddling with it.
@@Chimerathon no no u need 3km sprint range minimum that's why i'm stuck with 500m/s speed. I offset the lack of speed with stealth in hope that the enemy detect it a bit too late Yes it IS quite pricey (around 25 pts) but its worth it to silence the squaking mfs.
@@comradeblin256 I'm aware that they need extra fuel, but I'm talking about these missiles triggering their second stage WAY early, like at 5km, even though the seeker head only has a vision range of 3km. That's why I dumpstered them, I wanted to be able to launch at distant jammers and have a good chance at just popping them in one hit, but they didn't work correctly. Like I said, I think they're bugged atm so just keep an eye on it; It might only be the size 3 hybrids that are bugged in that way though.
@@Chimerathon well i didnt use size 3 hybrid for SEAD purposes, i only use size 2 becoz i kinda feared the enemy realize its antirad and they turn off everthin and run. Kinda relies more on spam even tho i know that the missile have good performance atm. I too dont rly trust the antirad seeker xD
IMPORTANT UPDATE: The designs in this video are all deprecated. The tactic of jammer cloaking stealth missiles has been significantly nerfed and doesn't require such a laser focused strategy to deal with anymore. Stacking two of the same missile components now has strong diminishing returns, certain point defenses are not as affected by jamming (aurora pdts specifically are great against these missiles, they mostly react in time even when jammed), and the new faction has a specific countermeasure that can jam optical guided missiles. Such is the reality of a game still in active development, and these are devs who pay attention.
Is this ship design still viable? Or do the middle debuffs require a complete over hall.
@@themaninlegocity5074 As far as I can tell it still does what I designed it to do, but I don't think it would be very useful anymore. Too much of the design is dedicated to defeating the stealth missiles, and there's way more simple, cost effective ways of doing so now. I think it would be rare to encounter them anymore regardless and you'd be left with a weaker weapon loadout than if you made a more generalist ship.
Welcome to my Ted Talk: I have made an unstoppable missile
Welcome to my Ted Talk part two: I have made the perfect missile killer that stops the unstoppable missile
the united states development loop
"I have created an unstoppable weapons system that can defeat even our own defenses"
"wait crap our enemies might use this against us."
"i have constructed an undefeatable defense against this weapons system."
You make the poison, you make the cure, classic shit m8 :D
This was hilarious because it's starting to aproach real world surface warfare concepts. Turns out that missiles are pretty great counters to missiles. Now if only you could have autonomous mesh networked drones that can use tight beam lasers in line of sight for undetectable, uninterruptable communication for recon, targeting and weapons delivery purposes then we would be approaching freaky status
Fighters and dedicated carrier vessels are in the roadmap.
While probes and alike are not in the devs plans, the cheap scout missile can do that, and carriers are in their way, so...
Chimerathon: I've invented a *really* sharp sword.
Chimerathon, a week later: Here's a bangin' shield I've built.
What I love about the level of customization of this game combined with the freedom of movement in its gameplay is that I'm already getting ideas of how to counter this counter. Just like the real-life cat and mouse chase of weapons development
I can't wait for that multiplayer campaign mode they talked about in their design docs, the arms race for weapon loadouts that counter known ship classes over the course of a war is going to be crazy.
Is there chance for dud or faulty design?
@@MS-je1nm Do we have bad designs in real life? Yes.
So can we get bad designs in the game? yeah.
@@MS-je1nmI mean, you can definitely design a ship that doesn’t work in practice like you thought it would in theory
Man discovered the nuclear option and then promptly found a way to counter it. genius
I'm impressed you've got this level of success so soon after picking up the game. I'm new as well, but it all feels rather overwhelming and intimidating.
I've been min-maxing vehicle loadouts in weird sci-fi simulator games since I was a little boy playing Mechwarrior 3, so maybe my brain is just wired for this kind of thing forever now. This is an exceptionally intricate game though, I'm so impressed by it.
@@Chimerathon and suddenly my anti missile cruiser is already obsolete
:<
youin the discord? I'd love to talk about all this!
I have no idea what this game is but am loving it
So I must say, lovely work, the double stealth missile is something I made as a joke about 20 minutes after the update dropped and paired with the jamming screen I always used to use on missile salvos also discoverd just how... wildly good they are. Like, if I aim right, I have yet to not score a hit with one. The one thing I feel is that the panopticon, while it does certainly eat stealth missiles for breakfast, feels like the kind of... I dunno metagame win the stealth missiles cause? I'm not sure how to describe it. Like, if by bringing stealth missiles I'm forcing you to spend more points than I do to hopefully be able to kill my missiles, I can use the rest of my points to just bring another gun boat. Idk, I love the idea, it's a 10/10 name, I just think the concept could use to be maybe... cheaper? and downscalabe to be effectively used on other ships. The bloodhound is more or less the standard AMM I use but... I'm not sure. Bringing that many of them to counter this specific thing feels, excesive, and still allows other ships to be eaten by them. I dunno, sorry for the ramble, just my two cents I wanted to put out there
Also just in my experience I've found corkscrew on hybrids, especially as unmaneuverable a one as the icepick, to be generally less than worth it. But ymmv so like, I dunno. Let me know if you've also noticed them causing misses on moving targets
All in all, lovely video, great content, I really hope to see more people make videos like this. (You also have a great voice, it's really nice)
Thank you for your kind words. This is the first video I've made where I wrote a script and did a voice over, so I'm glad it went over well.
After some more thought, I agree that the amount and expense of the amms on this ship are a little overkill and I've already made some tweaks to the loadout, specifically to be more capable of dealing with spammed cheap missiles; I've swapped out some of the Bloodhounds with half price normal flak versions that are used against size 2 missiles only, then used the extra points to give the support frigate two auroras and a defender. I figure more conventional point defense is always welcome, and elint stuff could be handled by other ships on the team, the frigate just has to hold hands with the cruiser and provide that spyglass radar. As far as I can tell, the rest of the loadout is useful regardless of if there are any stealth missiles to defend against. Someone's always gonna be carrying a jammer, and if not I can light stuff with the spotlights and use the Wardialers like a normal SA missile, despite being cheap, they still have a very effective payload if they manage to hit something. There's also always the guns to fall back on when everything's empty, though obviously not as useful as if they were on a more gun focused ship with ammo elevators and the like. Hopefully her extreme point defense capabilities have eaten a bunch of points worth of expensive missiles when everything's shaken out and dealt some crippling blows to expensive ships using icepicks.
Speaking of which, I think you'd be surprised at the effectiveness of the Icepick. For instance, a volley of four icepicks just walks right through a PD consisting of 2 auroras, one defender, and three stonewalls with no losses, and a lot of that is thanks to the corkscrew just completely nullifying the effectiveness of ballistic type PD. The only things they fear are 2+ sarissa, massed auroras, and long range AMMs; they can tank a single sarissa shot without dying thanks to the armor plating. Even the Panopticon and it's escort together can BARELY defeat a full volley of it's own missiles from mid range; if they're fired from within 6km then good luck lmao you better hope you have like 7 auroras nearby, they're like little juggernauts.
@@Chimerathon Huh, I must have to give the icepick a try then, every S3H I've given a terminal maneuver to has had a like, 40%+ miss rate. I appreciate the really indepth reply and agree in whole with your points. Can't wait to see more of your stuff!
your naming conventions are so cool. Wardialer, bloodhound, icepick, and panopitcon? I assume that means all seeing eye, very nice
I'm glad someone appreciated that, yes the word is derived from the greek word "panoptes", which means "all seeing". A panopticon is actually a design of prison in which the cells are arrayed in a circle around a central guard tower, allowing one guard to theoretically watch every prisoner from the same location. The prisoners can't tell what direction the guard is watching though because the windows on the tower are blackened, giving them all the sensation that they are being watched at all times. Also, a "wardialer" is an old hacker technique from the times of dialup modems that involves automated dialing of a list of telephone numbers to search for modems connected to the internet.
This is some year 2241 DARPA tier stuff man.
This was a great set of videos! Absolutely loved it, id love to see more
cool to see you here lol
@@lucalynch986 I watch most of the neb content people put up 😀
@@JDeeGaming thats sick thanks for helping the community!
missile on missile violence must be stopped just think of the missiles families
Very nice build 👌
I'm still learning the ropes of the game. Watching content like this helps alot see what works at countering what.
I really didn't expect the AC7 soundtrack to be background music in a youtube video. Definitely my favourite OST.
Very nice vid, I like how all the seemingly 'OP and unbeatable' missile builds still have a way to beat them, you just have to do some experinmenting!
I built something like this in the opposite direction. A long range missile which before entering PD range splits into like 10 very small very fast missiles and I think a couple of dummy ones to draw fire. The missile spreads the submunitions out into a large cone faceing the target . Very satisfying to watch
Excellent video! Would love too see some more in depth breakdowns of your designs/ general component optimization for different ship class / builds. Subscribed!
This is well engineered! I love it. I spent a lot of time working out ways to kill the double stealth automatically and manually, this is a much more comprehensive solution then I managed!
bloody hell, the quality of your content dude, I'm so happy i found your channel
Can’t wait for the devs to look at this and either HEAVILY rework the stealth coating or buff PD.
EDIT: Also, digging the Ace Combat 7 OST in the background. Love it!
Belkans: We can't beat this interceptor, so I guess we'll just have to bust out the nukes...Alexa, Agnus Dei, please.
If they use EO homing (which they better since anything else is pretty vulnerable to decoys and jamming), it's gonna home on the first ship it sees. Ergo, the easiest counter to such missile strikes is simply having sacrificial/PD picket ships in your fleet positioned in front of the actually valuable ones. Their cost is likely to be far lower than the cost of enemy missiles+carriers.
This is partially true, but something many people don't know is that EO seekers are capable of discerning between different classes of ship if you fire them at a track that has a high enough intelligence value. So actually, the stealth missile attacker can wait until the name and class of the enemy ship is revealed by intelligence gathering and then fire at the most valuable target. If you fire them at a verified heavy cruiser for example, the seeker will ignore any nearby target that is not a heavy cruiser. It's pretty cool, but somewhat impractical since people don't tend to invest points into intel, which makes identifying tracks take a pretty long time.
@@Chimerathon Cool, didn't know that. BTW my picket ships are frigs with 3x dual 120mm, a blanket jammer, and 11km radar. I tend to slap on some ammo elevators as well. Total cost about 400 points, defeat most missile spam via HE-RPF fires, jam the enemy, and if I lose one or both of those pickets to a concentrated strike its nbd that's what they are for.
It's possible to make the Bloodhound a 2 point missile, as EL Payload doesn't do nearly as much as they should. I'd also personally recommend remove the terminal maneuver. At the speed S3H missiles use, nearly any terminal maneuvers will cause a miss 2/3 times
EL payload has like a 60% or 80% kill chance vs 100% sprint missiles, as compared to about 20% if using normal blast frag
Thank you for sharing. Newer players here like me would benefit from commentary on what's going on. You are appreciated.
Excellent quality video. Subscribed and looking forward to hearing more from you.
Ah, the anti-missile missile. A classic design.
TF “Sighthound” and the intro music is the Sighthound track from AC7, nice.
I'm loving semi active missiles right now, got my OSP freighter carrying over sixty crates at only 2pts a crate with a shuttle to illuminate for it. Keeps the pressure up all game long
Dude! keep going! 😁😁😄😄 this video is excellent, hits all the right notes and is well edited. Your growing mastery of this niche game is exactly what youtube is here for. o7
Thanks to you I now have to redesign all my previous templates. My ships crews will no doubt thank you.
Dude this is awesome. Please make more videos like this!
I'll always give points for Ace Combat soundtrack
I am here, thinking on playing this game i got on the library waiting, pretending i understand this complex missiles stuff.
Somehow enjoying the video.
Thanks, man! I recently faced a monsterous stealth fleet with seemingly un-counterable hybrids. I will definately integrate some of these points in to my missile CL task force.
Nice job! I hoped you named the stealth missile "Long Lance" tho XD
I just bought the game lastnight before going to sleep. With the plethora of videos out this looks like it should be fun. Ohh, and consuming of time and thoughts of what to build.
Oh wow this game looks incredible. I'm typically less of a fan of space, especially for this sort of game, but everything else just looks so perfect towards what I enjoy that there's no way I can pass it up.
I never really played it for more than a few hours, but I will always feel a little weird about this game because I know the people who made it, and what "lore" exists in the game is for the most part full of tounge in cheek references to a bunch of "clan drama" that went on in second life 10-15 years ago. that always makes me laugh a little.
Seriously? Give!
so with a perfect purpose built counter *and* the knowledge beforehand that your opponent is going to deploy this exact strategy, it can be countered.
Perfectly reasonable
I'm mixed on a toggle being added to swap hot and cold launch.
I don't think it would be game breaking but at the same time it is a meaningful choice that can radically alter how you play a ship.
excellent content ! keep it up this content was very fun !
About a month after this came out, the technique was nerfed. It is still effective and has been somewhat brought back by very recent buffs to sarrissa pd turrets
I spend more time making fleets than in actual matches.
This combat feels inspired by the combat wasps in the Night Dawn trilogy
Its a great concept but at that point you're bringing a ship specifically geared to defeat a specific class of missile when those points could be allocated elsewhere. Good solution if you're stuck with an opponent like me who absolutely loves the double stealth S3 hybrid, but not very viable if i decide to switch it up. It also seems to be reliant on you knowing the time and direction of the attack. Although i will say i love the Wardialer, have been struggling to think of decent uses to have a second sensor not used for validation.
Very nicely done!
Music choices are /fantastic/.
This is amazing...
Pops chaff with malicious intent
Awesome content!!!
This game is real? People need to play this game instead of going to war
As someone who spends likely too many points on 'traditional' PD - that missile terrifies me. I'd be interested to see if adding adaptive sensors changes anything with regards to picking the stealth missiles up - I've been churning out designs for escort fleets for the last little while but admittedly I haven't been doing much in the way of scientific testing. More along the lines of "Can it survive my friend's missile whaling fleet"
A great and enlightening video. Thanks for sharing.
This is essentially what some people call blindfire or deadfire air defense. Instead of giving it a target in particular, send it out with sensors slashing and have it engage whatever the hell it sees.
Great video, always nice to have examples and footage to look at trying to learn the more advanced stuff in this game. Also when you said "this is the panopticon" I literally heard the "this is the mothership" line from the homeworld one officer. Have you thought about voice acting for games?
dude make more videos on your designs and tactics I find it very useful for my autistic condition of expending more time designing and testing shit in Nebulous than actually playing...
"Hey, Hell's Heart? I STABBETH THEE!!!"
So the answer to missiles is ... more missiles ... got it.
Great video of a great game!
I think the hardened armour is good, but the second one has a diminishing return, I’d grab a different secondary
You can launc by the salvo if you hold a modifier key, i forget which one it is but you don't need to click for each individual missile.
Such an incredible game.
To defeat the monster you have to know its coming, theres still no way to figure out how to defeat it going in blind
I’ve made defensive missiles. I called them poppers. The problem I’ve had is having them launch in time.
So you made an American cruiser
"I used the missile to destroy the missile"
1 downsides to this is that you have to know beforehand your enemy will be using these missiles, as preemptively dumping your missile racks to counter what you think MIGHT be stealth missiles (as the only real "warning" is being jammed which is going to happen with pretty much any missile attack anyway) isn't a viable option. I would imagine you could initially confirm the use of stealth missiles by firing a starting salvo towards jamming, see if they hit any missiles, and continue for as long as ammo allows. But then the question is raised how many should you include in the salvo? Too few and you'll miss too many and die. Too many and you burn thru your magazines too quick and die. Very tricky situation. Visual confirmation is definitely your biggest friend in fighting against these things.
The strategy is to keep shooting until they're all dead
Air Defense Cruiser is awesome isn't it.. ^^ you can literally watch them burn all their VLS ammo, then take them down with next to no effort like that.
There’s something about Country Twang and space ships….
And a year later you can counter a potentially infinite amount of them for 40 points
20 of those on an axford gets me like a consistent 20k damage every round with jamming it’s busted
This game is incredibly cool and well made. I picked it up on early access launch played a couple games and got dumpster'd. I decided I'll play it when there is a campaign, some of the sweaties in this game remind me of the times I've played WG: Red Dragon. It's the kind of game I enjoy watching not playing.
put this on the workshop with the flotilla for the last build as well.
Please do because this is insane
Offset Scout and sufficient PD on your main ship... there I fixed it for you with around 280 points?
Nice quality video tho!
No lol
Get hit with a Hangup and the scout can scout all it likes, the ship is deaf and is still reliant on its own sensors!
Is there any way you could post the built to the shipyard channel of the developer discord? I’d love to see how you did this for 3000 points.
Sure, but give me a few more days I'd say. I'm still fiddling with the dials to get this fleet to be as effective as possible. Like, the frigate is almost completely different from in the video now lol. I think I'm close though.
Looks good
The music ends and the info is given at about 4:20
What about single stealth missles shots to trick you into wasting your counter missles
My brother invented PAC-3 PATRIOT
just a thought if you can add something similar to a shrapnel shell ( 1500+ fragments ) with luminous fragments and make it rapid fire so you could get a bunch off per second it would be extremely cheap and you could see the hitting an enemy no matter what stealth it had and say a 150g fragment hitting a hull at 2500m/s would still do some damage in addition to showing position
HE RPF rounds are an option but if you can't see which exact angle the missile is coming from you might as well be pissing in the wind with them.
@@henryhamilton4087 not the missiles but the ship firing them which will take at least a few hits from 35 shells in 60 seconds with 1500 projectiles each with AI assisted cameras
This would still be counterable by simply timing the jammer so that it hits when the missile is about halfway. I don't think most players can react that quickly by turning on their illuminator, allocate missiles, wait for missile to be programmed, and fire it if you jam right before the missile is detected
You have 20-30 sec to activate the illuminator. And frankly, its probably on all the time.
It's true, this defense is difficult to pull off on the fly, and waiting to activate the jammer is pretty dirty. The bright side is that tactic could only be performed between 6km and 10km distance. Any closer and ship sensors would detect the missiles and launch interceptors automatically, easily defeating the volley, any further and the jammer can't reach. There's also no reason to do that unless shooting specifically at this ship, normal ships are unlikely to be able to defend like this because it requires custom pd missiles and a lot of missile programming channels.
I'd love to play this game but I feel like a need a PhD in Space Combat Systems and Dynamics to understand 1/10th of what is going on
It can be overwhelming at first but you dont have to engage with all the mechanics at once you can make a perfectly viable fleet just with ships that have normal guns and nothing else
Wow I'm on like day two of this game. Incredibly complex! Your brain is bigger then mine.For the science! If you ever need a test dummy let me know lol
Damn, this game dynamic is really awesome. It would be so cool to see something similar in a different setting.
Wow this is such a great counter, all you need is:
1. The enemy not jamming you first.
2. You being able to counter jam the enemy in time and using a proper vector.
3. Expensive 4-point PD missile manual spam into space.
4. The missile cruisers being an LC fleet and not a more optimized HC setup (lmao seriously?).
5. A completely un-realistic stealth missile playstyle. In real games against real players the stealth missile cruiser fleet will send 2-3 probing hybrids to figure out what the ship they are firing at is and what it's defenses are. After that they will properly adjust the amount of salvos per ship and ships per fleet as well as a rough time-estimate of how long they will be out of cover of missile fire. This means that your PD spam even when it works would be extremely wasteful since the salvos will be seperated by long distances.
also what the hecc is the music from 1:50's combat segment?
That song is "Sighthound" from the Ace Combat 7 soundtrack. All of the music in this video is from AC7.
@@Chimerathon Affirm. Thank you.
I dig the videos. Do you have a list somewhere of the music you used in this one?
In order: "Premonition", "Sighthound", "444th air base", and "Pipeline Destruction", all from the Ace Combat 7 soundtrack.
@@Chimerathon Awesome, thanks!
sounds like alein theory
I wonder if it's possible to make a ship with enough speed to be able to out fight larger heavy ships due to their inability to track, rotate, and respond.
LCs are fast enough to stay at medium range when fighting HCs and BBs. Requires a lot of micro and constant changing of movement + specialized acceleration setup, but when done correctly the HCs and BBs using rails or cannons can never hit the LC group. This is one of the single most infuriating things to fight against.
Am i hearing Ace Combat music?
From looking at the stats, the extended lethality on the size 1 AMMs doesn’t seem to have much of an advantage over the standard blast fragmentation, while still being much more expensive. Is there something I’m missing?
If you read the description of the frag payload it explains that "the effectiveness of the warhead is inversely related to the relative velocity of the missile and target at the time of intercept"; in other words, intercepting a missile that is moving faster than the interceptor makes it less likely that the intercept will do its full damage. The EL payload makes PD missiles much more lethal against faster targets, like a sprinting hybrid missile for instance, which is what I'm aiming to defeat at all costs. You could save ~200 points on PD missiles for this loadout by switching to regular frag payload, but if it comes at the cost of reliability then there's no point. That's my thought process anyway, letting 1 or 2 out of 7 missiles through might be worth it for a better equipped or heavier escort ship, it depends on your priorities. I wanted this ship to be neigh impenetrable to missiles, so I went all in.
@@Chimerathon Ah, I didn’t know about that speed feature so the el makes alot more sense now. Out of curiosity, did you test the el vs the standard or are going off stats alone?
@@graysuka Yep, the difference in effectiveness is stark. If I swap to normal flak payload the PD missiles struggle to kill even half a volley, even while not being jammed, unless they manage to intercept them all in cruise phase which would be extremely difficult to pull off against stealth missiles cloaked by jamming. You'd have to max out the payload size and adjust the fuel so they have about 5000m range, which makes them much slower and less maneuverable, completely unable to kill any sprinting hybrid. You do give me an idea for min-maxing though: I could make a block II version of the bloodhound with normal flak payload and adjust their firing doctrine so that they only fire against size 2 missiles, then swap 30 or 40 of them in to save a few points on intercepting cheap missiles. Hmm... I don't know if it's worth the risk to save 80 points, maybe that's dumb.
@@Chimerathon Good to know, I haven’t seen too many stealth missiles in game yet, but when I do I’ll be prepared. Thanks!
@@Chimerathon Oof. And I can't decide what to put on my Battlemechs with fixed hard points in MechWarrior 5...
Yo, the title is Fleet Command, your profile pic is Dead-Eye Flint, and your channel banner is BattleTech.
Are you trying to make me, specifically, subscribe? Because it worked.
Так а в чем проблема использовать инфракрасное наведение? Или его нет в игре? и как второй вариант - это Флак заграждение. Взрывами создавать бесполетную зону
He said the Stealth missiles arrive without warning and when you do see them it's too late. He couldn't get point defense cannons online so the thing to do was fire anti missile missiles to go and look for the Stealth missiles
I have this game on my wishlist, but I assume it needs a lot of time to get good?
well now i know what missiles to use! no one will know this >:D
Glad it was nerved
I don't know anything about this game. From the description of the objective "Find stealthy thing", it seems like the easiest way to detect it is to get something past it, then broadcast something toward your own sensors to backlight it. Sensitivity will increase proportionally with the size of your sensor array, since you can measure more angles for disturbances. Essentially, if it insists on being invisible, then illuminate everything - preferably with a spectrum and modulated codes that only you would know - and search for what's *not* there by missing chunks, refraction (from rebroadcast), etc.... If that feature exist in what seems like a rather customizable game, then the real world motivation for such a suite would be its simplicity and low cost. You can test it yourself at home with a basic polar tracking mount, set to follow regular broadcast satellites by their published schedules for the orbital segments that cross known air traffic routes (for demonstration, this is plenty), slap a directional antenna on it, and set it to trigger a coaxial-mounted camera whenever it detects a sudden signal dip. It's not that different than how exoplanets are found and measured by watching for dips in distant star brightness, so you know it's going to be wicked easy to spot the phase deviation from a carbon fiber drone from LEO or GSO wide-beam broadcasts.
The main problem is a complete blackout attack. By attacking with a Hangup jammer, you prevent the jammed ship from receiving transmissions from all suites currently in the game.
This neutralizes cooperative engagement capabilities, making it impossible to spot with one ship shoot with another. Paired with a Blanket barrage jammer, you prevent the ship from receiving RADAR returns. This makes the ship functionally blind, unable to rely on offboard or engage with its own long and short range air defense, or terminal air defense.
Out of hand I think that throwing two spotlights at the issue paired with long range interceptors *might* solve the problem?
@@KoishiVibin The in-game "hangup jammer" sounds like yee olde computer networking attacks, that send messages equivalent to "nothing is here" to cause the receiving computer to quit searching... That doesn't sound viable in a radar simulation, where the RF energy itself is scrutinized. A noise broadcast from a source beyond the missile you're trying to detect should actually make it easier to employ a passive radar strategy. It's not so common in real-world applications (besides the aforementioned exoplanet research), because you either need something else to illuminate a target from your own side, (actually in use, but requires a network of receivers to sort targets from chaff), or an illuminator that is effectively within or past the enemy front line. So, good for passive targeting (and rather stealthy), and gains in effectiveness with the total RF energy backlighting the target (as you're looking for that occlusion of the emitter to betray the location of a stealth object, and comparing multiple linked sensors will allow you to easily discard a spoofed hit.
@@buckstarchaser2376 the hangup I believe is supposed to jam around the same frequency information is sent, just like a radar jammer only different frequency. also, the problem with sending something in front of the incoming missiles is that in real games there are a lot of very large asteroids that function as cover, and if you have your ship next to an asteroid in case someone with guns comes along, you can't afford to keep a scout ship further past the asteroid. You also run into the problem of your scout ship getting destroyed very quickly as it will be cheap and small, and the next volley of missiles can be set to pass it and go for the main ship that way they don't slam into the dead ship.
neat.
Skip: 1:40
So dedicated missiles to counter missles. Sad if you bring all these counter measures for 1 missile and then run into a bunch of cannons instead 😂
Umm i got a missiles that i havent tried in MP, i called it "Vampir" size 2 missile. Basically antirad missile that silenced any shouter. It had 3km sprint range at 500m/s with stealth coating. The idea is if the target want to detect it with radar they r dead, if they try to jam they r dead, and the only way for them to reliably live is just shut everything off and pray. It have nice hit rate due to it being stealthy and have passive detector.
Problem is the damage, is it better to use HE or penetrator HE?
My original idea for killing jammers was to use hybrid missiles as well (the clip at the end of the video shows those original missiles working), and on testing I found that they worked great at close range but if I launched them at distant targets they would prematurely enter sprint and run out of fuel before reaching the target. I think the home-on-jam seeker is bugged on hybrids, so I went back to the drawing board. As for the payload, I'd say a size 2 hybrid probably should use the penetrator head if you want it to do any kind of serious damage to heavier craft like cruisers and battleships, but that gets pretty pricey for a missile that you can only use against jammers. I haven't done much testing on the capabilities of size 2 hybrids yet though, so you might know better than I do if you've been fiddling with it.
@@Chimerathon no no u need 3km sprint range minimum that's why i'm stuck with 500m/s speed. I offset the lack of speed with stealth in hope that the enemy detect it a bit too late
Yes it IS quite pricey (around 25 pts) but its worth it to silence the squaking mfs.
@@comradeblin256 I'm aware that they need extra fuel, but I'm talking about these missiles triggering their second stage WAY early, like at 5km, even though the seeker head only has a vision range of 3km. That's why I dumpstered them, I wanted to be able to launch at distant jammers and have a good chance at just popping them in one hit, but they didn't work correctly. Like I said, I think they're bugged atm so just keep an eye on it; It might only be the size 3 hybrids that are bugged in that way though.
@@Chimerathon well i didnt use size 3 hybrid for SEAD purposes, i only use size 2 becoz i kinda feared the enemy realize its antirad and they turn off everthin and run.
Kinda relies more on spam even tho i know that the missile have good performance atm. I too dont rly trust the antirad seeker xD