Thanks. As a member of the chimpanzee community, this has always puzzled me. We certainly eat and enjoy a great deal of fruit ( so there is irrefutable actus reus) but notwithstanding we never intended to disobey God in any way ( so a complete lack of mens rea). We are therefore being punished for a crime we didn't commit.
I’ve been thinking about death prior to the fall. God made tree with fruit and seed in that fruit. To reproduce the tree would have to go through seasons. Seasons means that fruit ripen and eventually fall to the ground and decompose, while the seed goes into the ground to die, and bring forth new life. These seasons would have been a part of God’s good creation.
Wow, I've never heard the idea that the effects of the fall might have cascaded backwards through time. Technically, it works, but it seems super presuppositional for me. Fascinating.
This might help you even more as I personally have been thinking through the problem of animal suffering. The bible says the Christ was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world" that explains how to people in the OT could be saved God knew of Christs crucifixion and in God's mind it already happened, considering how crist is talked about as the new Adam and Christs redemption applied before it even happened then logically it makes sense that Adams fall would have taken effect before it happened
What im saying is this.... The Bible says that the world that god created before the rise of man was "good" It does not matter if you think that it cant be called "good" if animals were eating other animals. It does not matter because our human idea of what is "good' is not what the Bible is concerned with in the Genesis story. The Bible says that "God saw that it was good". The Bible does not ask if Adam also thought it was "good"? so why does Hank (and so many others posting here) think that suddenly the children of Adam need to dream up a way to have it look "good" to match what we think "good" means? If we dont like the way god made the earth?.....thats too bad....get over it
yes.... In the end, if you are looking for a 'reason" for all the death in the universe?...you will fail. JOB asked that question of God, but when god spoke, it was not to give the nice clear answer that humans are always looking for. The ending of the matter gets us to this verse at JOB 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"
It's hard enough to connect with the reality of events in our own lifetimes that we experience with passage of time and space; so considering the inescapable and often torturous world we wake up to with self-consciousness here, why are we sooo cut off and distant from, mostly ignorant of the context, events, fall of Adam? Again hard enough to register and keep up with our own actual experienced world in the past of our own lifetimes; but we're dominated by something so distant and pretty much a mystery in its totality yet all consuming in its effects on our existence, another man's eating fruit. I really don't get this.
It was not the eating of the fruit that caused the problem. God Could have forbid him to just touch it. No the crutch of the matter was disobedience. God said just believe me and Adam said "No". Today God says I gave you Paul, just believe him, And 99 percent say "No".
@@ellenl.5581 I respect the content of the description of its parameters, and it was eating fruit. Everything that has ensued and our distance from this dominating single action by two people is just hard to square in my view. Just so phantom like to me.
this does not make sense. Why do animals have to suffer because of two people's individual crimes, especially when the crime in question is simply eating fruit that God told them not to eat? That's like saying an entire football team has to be disbanded, and all its members should be expelled from school because the team captain stole lunch money from his father. It's insane!
@mofopeolaleye8187 Adam and Eve were to have care over the creation. Sin resulted in the corruption of humanity. The sin was nothing small, but rebellion against God. It is not a foul in a game of football. It is the sin that bought mortality to Adam and Eve. The effects of sin brought forth the suffering and death of animals. But Christ is the redeemer. He redeems fallen humanity. He redeems the cosmos.
The Lord's answer to death? He allows it to happen to himself on the cross. "he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” The Lord answer is to let death take him as it takes all life. and then the Lord shows us that death is overcome. So the Lord did not run from death, he did not sweep it aside...he did not say that the suffering was too much. he allowed it to happen , so that its "sting" is removed. and so,,,,it's down to a matter now of your faith. For if you just look at the vast amount of death and suffering going on for 13.8 billions years in this universe, then you will never see the point of it. Children suffer and die Young mothers tortured to death. People taken before they were even born.... Death runs wild in the universe. and then one man speaks and says, "My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives." Jesus never said that its going to one day add up correctly the same way the world adds up things. You and I are never going to think, and think, and think real hard about how this world is build on death and suddenly have 'the answer!". For the Lord never told Job the reason for suffering in this world, so we should not expect we will learn that answer. But we are asked to trust that the God of the universe will do what is right.
Theres a lot wrong with this.. 1) I can barely hear the audio 2) Sin did not enter the world through Adam, Adam along with Eve were just the first humans to commit sin. Don't forget the Devil was already given dominion over the earth prior to Adam and Eve hence why he's even there to begin with. Satan at the point of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in the story of Genesis was way way after the Devil already turned a third of the angels on the earth against God, started a war, and failed being cast back down to earth. After the desolation of the world God renewed it as stated in the creation story of Genesis. 3) You come across very eager and proud to preach what you're not certain of. This is not a quality God likes in any of us. We're a collective, and need to work together to accomplish anything of importance. One isn't anything without another and you're demeanor doesn't show this at all.
@colincrisp1592 ~ There are a few modern cosmologies that tell the alien seeding story for the origin of life on Earth, but they are untenable. See www.equip.org/bible_answers/can-aliens-account-origin-life/ and www.equip.org/articles/would-extraterrestrial-intelligent-life-spell-doom-for-christianity/
Also, God said over and over that his creation was "Good". Animals eating each other alive is not "Good" , therefore none of the created animals were initially carnivorous. Animals began eating each other after the Fall.
You’re sure of that. Wasn’t Adam created about 5,500 BC years ago? How long after that was the Fall? 100 years? Nothing about The world at that time outside the Garden of Eden was explained in Genesis. All “The Fall” did was affect the corruption of mankind. The Earth is a lot older than 6,000 BC. A lot of Natural Selection occurred before “The Fall.” They have found fossil bones with bite marks on them in certain crust layers. Unless all those bones were created like that, to trick people like me, I have to believe in an Ice Age and before.
If there was no carnivores before the fall there would have to be another creation event to change the animals from herbivores into carnivores. The Bible specifically states that God is resting from his creation to this day. Also within weeks if not days the planet would be overpopulated and heading towards an infinite number of animals on a finite planet. The system would have to fail for it to work. I don't know that we could call that good. The animals also had to eat which implies entropy why eat if you can't die. Even Adam and Eve were not immortal in themselves. They had to eat from the tree of Life. There's no evidence the animals ate from the tree of Life and only God is self-existent
Ridiculous. Will animals , insects, be saved and admitted to heaven? How can a just god inflict pure unadulterated suffering on his own creatures that are incapable of understanding or acting willfully within his own concept of sin? For his own pleasure? And the explanation extends retroactively, and conveniently , to creatures that existed before the fall. Weak and embarrassing as a creative writing assignment and exponentially more so as a defense of the indefensible.
Nature red in tooth and claw is the result of the fall. But God is the one actively redeeming this fallen world, and He will ultimately set all things to right. See www.equip.org/bible_answers/carnivores-catastrophes-existed-prior-fall/ www.equip.org/bible_answers/will-created-cosmos-resurrected-annihilated/ and www.equip.org/article/old-earth-creationism-and-the-fall/
this idea of Hank's......is silly. the whole idea that you see the effects of something before their cause? thats silly..... It sounds like an idea dreamed up to get out of the corner you painted yourself into
The bible says the effects of Jesus crucifixion were available before it happened that's how people in the OT were saved so why wouldn't the effects of Adams fall be the same, the bible does say that Christ is the new Adam
@@carterwoodrow4805 Got a verse? Before we say something based only on - "so why wouldn't..." we should understand that we are about to base a line of understanding on a complete lack of support in the Bible...
@@AlanMolstad yes I do, revelation 13:8, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", this is how the people before chrsit were saved, God has a vertical view of history and is outside time, therefore he imputed the effects of Christs sacrifice on the people who trusted in him before the event even happened. The bible also says that Christ is the new Adam, Romans 5:17-19, "For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the onethe one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." This section and then 1st Corinthians 15:45-49, very very closely compare Adam to Christ, we know that Christs righteousness brought life to people before it even happened we can reasonably infer that it is highly likely adams disobedience brought death to the animals before him.
@@AlanMolstad well Jesus said if you look with lust you commit adultery in your heart, that's something you think. Jesus also said if you hate someone in your heart if you have murdered them in your heart. Both of those are things you think
Cool, but my question is how is that justified? Animals are incapable of sinning, yet God intentionally makes these innocent animals get torn limb to limb, and eat their own babies. You can say what you want for why this happens, but I'm wondering how it's justified that this happens. If it's not justified, then that means God is evil, as he made naturally evil things that's only purpose is to eat and suffer. If you see this have a great day, and please answer if you can. I'm curious
@XeroX The fall of man is a reason for why nature is red in tooth and claw. But it hardly means God is indifferent to natural evil, nor sadistically enjoys observing it. But there is the goal of redeeming fallen man and creation, which conveyed in the Scripture. So, Christ came to redeem the loss. For more related reading, see www.equip.org/article/old-earth-creationism-and-the-fall/
@@AlanMolstad sooo you think animal torture is good/justified/not bad? Ok. Again, I'm asking you how God allowing the sinless animal's suffering is justified, I don't care about what you think about my opinion, I'm asking YOU about your opinion
@@xerox2227 The Bible says that before man was part of the story that God saw that the world he had created was "good" that is what the Bible says.. and we know that before the rise of man on the earth that for millions if not billions of years that life was going about its normal path. And remember, this is the earth that the Lord saw as "good". When we read the story of Genesis, we notice that while the Bible points out to us that God saw the earth as "good' that the Bible does not seem very interested at all as to what Adam felt about the way the earth was created. the Bible does not say that Adam also felt that the earth was "good". Now, we turn the page and its the year 2023 and we find that the children of Adam now consider the way the earth was created as not being "good" at all. well?.....well thats just too bad. Get over it. The Bible did not worry in Genesis what the man thought of the creation, and so why should we think that today that man yet understands how God sees his creation as "good"? The fact that you dont think the earth was "good" just shows us how humans still got a lot to learn before we see this creation as God does.... So what is my opinion on this matter? My opinion that if God feels his creation work resulted in a world that he felt was 'good"? Then thats the final answer. The lord saw what he had created, and saw it was good. case-closed.
"Justified"? The Lord's answer to death? He allows it to happen to himself on the cross. "he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” The Lord answer is to let death take him as it takes all life. and then the Lord shows us that death is overcome. So the Lord did not run from death, he did not sweep it aside...he did not say that the suffering was too much. he allowed it to happen , so that its "sting" is removed. and so,,,,it's down to a matter now of your faith. For if you just look at the vast amount of death and suffering going on for 13.8 billions years in this universe, then you will never see the point of it. Children suffer and die Young mothers tortured to death. People taken before they were even born.... Death runs wild in the universe. and then one man speaks and says, "My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives." Jesus never said that its going to one day add up correctly the same way the world adds up things. You and I are never going to think, and think, and think real hard about how this world is build on death and suddenly have 'the answer!". For the Lord never told Job the reason for suffering in this world, so we should not expect we will learn that answer. But we are asked to trust that the God of the universe will do what is right.
Thanks. As a member of the chimpanzee community, this has always puzzled me. We certainly eat and enjoy a great deal of fruit ( so there is irrefutable actus reus) but notwithstanding we never intended to disobey God in any way ( so a complete lack of mens rea). We are therefore being punished for a crime we didn't commit.
I think this is what Ap. Paul says in the Rom.8,20-22,isn’t?
I’ve been thinking about death prior to the fall. God made tree with fruit and seed in that fruit. To reproduce the tree would have to go through seasons. Seasons means that fruit ripen and eventually fall to the ground and decompose, while the seed goes into the ground to die, and bring forth new life. These seasons would have been a part of God’s good creation.
Wow, I've never heard the idea that the effects of the fall might have cascaded backwards through time. Technically, it works, but it seems super presuppositional for me. Fascinating.
This might help you even more as I personally have been thinking through the problem of animal suffering. The bible says the Christ was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world" that explains how to people in the OT could be saved God knew of Christs crucifixion and in God's mind it already happened, considering how crist is talked about as the new Adam and Christs redemption applied before it even happened then logically it makes sense that Adams fall would have taken effect before it happened
you have never heard of it because its not a real thing...
Not a bible teaching...
What im saying is this....
The Bible says that the world that god created before the rise of man was "good"
It does not matter if you think that it cant be called "good" if animals were eating other animals.
It does not matter because our human idea of what is "good' is not what the Bible is concerned with in the Genesis story.
The Bible says that "God saw that it was good".
The Bible does not ask if Adam also thought it was "good"?
so why does Hank (and so many others posting here) think that suddenly the children of Adam need to dream up a way to have it look "good" to match what we think "good" means?
If we dont like the way god made the earth?.....thats too bad....get over it
0:00 Sin causes human and animal decay.
yes....
In the end, if you are looking for a 'reason" for all the death in the universe?...you will fail.
JOB asked that question of God, but when god spoke, it was not to give the nice clear answer that humans are always looking for.
The ending of the matter gets us to this verse at JOB 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"
It's hard enough to connect with the reality of events in our own lifetimes that we experience with passage of time and space; so considering the inescapable and often torturous world we wake up to with self-consciousness here, why are we sooo cut off and distant from, mostly ignorant of the context, events, fall of Adam? Again hard enough to register and keep up with our own actual experienced world in the past of our own lifetimes; but we're dominated by something so distant and pretty much a mystery in its totality yet all consuming in its effects on our existence, another man's eating fruit. I really don't get this.
It was not the eating of the fruit that caused the problem. God Could have forbid him to just touch it. No the crutch of the matter was disobedience. God said just believe me and Adam said "No". Today God says I gave you Paul, just believe him, And 99 percent say "No".
@@ellenl.5581
I respect the content of the description of its parameters, and it was eating fruit. Everything that has ensued and our distance from this dominating single action by two people is just hard to square in my view. Just so phantom like to me.
this does not make sense. Why do animals have to suffer because of two people's individual crimes, especially when the crime in question is simply eating fruit that God told them not to eat? That's like saying an entire football team has to be disbanded, and all its members should be expelled from school because the team captain stole lunch money from his father. It's insane!
@mofopeolaleye8187 Adam and Eve were to have care over the creation. Sin resulted in the corruption of humanity. The sin was nothing small, but rebellion against God. It is not a foul in a game of football. It is the sin that bought mortality to Adam and Eve. The effects of sin brought forth the suffering and death of animals. But Christ is the redeemer. He redeems fallen humanity. He redeems the cosmos.
The serpant was part of the beast of the field and remember the serpent sin to so that could b3 why the animals suffer to i could be wrong
again, Im pointing out that Hank's idea, as well as your own idea, lack any support in the Bible...
The Lord's answer to death?
He allows it to happen to himself on the cross.
"he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
The Lord answer is to let death take him as it takes all life.
and then the Lord shows us that death is overcome.
So the Lord did not run from death, he did not sweep it aside...he did not say that the suffering was too much.
he allowed it to happen , so that its "sting" is removed.
and so,,,,it's down to a matter now of your faith.
For if you just look at the vast amount of death and suffering going on for 13.8 billions years in this universe, then you will never see the point of it.
Children suffer and die
Young mothers tortured to death.
People taken before they were even born....
Death runs wild in the universe.
and then one man speaks and says, "My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives."
Jesus never said that its going to one day add up correctly the same way the world adds up things.
You and I are never going to think, and think, and think real hard about how this world is build on death and suddenly have 'the answer!".
For the Lord never told Job the reason for suffering in this world, so we should not expect we will learn that answer.
But we are asked to trust that the God of the universe will do what is right.
Theres a lot wrong with this.. 1) I can barely hear the audio 2) Sin did not enter the world through Adam, Adam along with Eve were just the first humans to commit sin. Don't forget the Devil was already given dominion over the earth prior to Adam and Eve hence why he's even there to begin with. Satan at the point of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in the story of Genesis was way way after the Devil already turned a third of the angels on the earth against God, started a war, and failed being cast back down to earth. After the desolation of the world God renewed it as stated in the creation story of Genesis. 3) You come across very eager and proud to preach what you're not certain of. This is not a quality God likes in any of us. We're a collective, and need to work together to accomplish anything of importance. One isn't anything without another and you're demeanor doesn't show this at all.
ETs created our bodies And terra formed the planet
@colincrisp1592 ~ There are a few modern cosmologies that tell the alien seeding story for the origin of life on Earth, but they are untenable. See www.equip.org/bible_answers/can-aliens-account-origin-life/ and www.equip.org/articles/would-extraterrestrial-intelligent-life-spell-doom-for-christianity/
Also, God said over and over that his creation was "Good". Animals eating each other alive is not "Good" , therefore none of the created animals were initially carnivorous. Animals began eating each other after the Fall.
You’re sure of that. Wasn’t Adam created about 5,500 BC years ago? How long after that was the Fall? 100 years? Nothing about The world at that time outside the Garden of Eden was explained in Genesis. All “The Fall” did was affect the corruption of mankind. The Earth is a lot older than 6,000 BC. A lot of Natural Selection occurred before “The Fall.” They have found fossil bones with bite marks on them in certain crust layers. Unless all those bones were created like that, to trick people like me, I have to believe in an Ice Age and before.
If there was no carnivores before the fall there would have to be another creation event to change the animals from herbivores into carnivores. The Bible specifically states that God is resting from his creation to this day.
Also within weeks if not days the planet would be overpopulated and heading towards an infinite number of animals on a finite planet. The system would have to fail for it to work. I don't know that we could call that good.
The animals also had to eat which implies entropy why eat if you can't die.
Even Adam and Eve were not immortal in themselves. They had to eat from the tree of Life. There's no evidence the animals ate from the tree of Life and only God is self-existent
when you place your own private concept of what is 'not Good" above what the Bible says,,,you make your words more important than the bible...
Ridiculous. Will animals , insects, be saved and admitted to heaven? How can a just god inflict pure unadulterated suffering on his own creatures that are incapable of understanding or acting willfully within his own concept of sin? For his own pleasure? And the explanation extends retroactively, and conveniently , to creatures that existed before the fall. Weak and embarrassing as a creative writing assignment and exponentially more so as a defense of the indefensible.
Nature red in tooth and claw is the result of the fall. But God is the one actively redeeming this fallen world, and He will ultimately set all things to right. See www.equip.org/bible_answers/carnivores-catastrophes-existed-prior-fall/ www.equip.org/bible_answers/will-created-cosmos-resurrected-annihilated/ and www.equip.org/article/old-earth-creationism-and-the-fall/
this idea of Hank's......is silly.
the whole idea that you see the effects of something before their cause?
thats silly.....
It sounds like an idea dreamed up to get out of the corner you painted yourself into
The bible says the effects of Jesus crucifixion were available before it happened that's how people in the OT were saved so why wouldn't the effects of Adams fall be the same, the bible does say that Christ is the new Adam
@@carterwoodrow4805
Got a verse?
Before we say something based only on - "so why wouldn't..." we should understand that we are about to base a line of understanding on a complete lack of support in the Bible...
@@AlanMolstad yes I do, revelation 13:8, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", this is how the people before chrsit were saved, God has a vertical view of history and is outside time, therefore he imputed the effects of Christs sacrifice on the people who trusted in him before the event even happened. The bible also says that Christ is the new Adam, Romans 5:17-19, "For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the onethe one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." This section and then 1st Corinthians 15:45-49, very very closely compare Adam to Christ, we know that Christs righteousness brought life to people before it even happened we can reasonably infer that it is highly likely adams disobedience brought death to the animals before him.
Are we judged by the things we think, say, and do?...
or .....
are we judged according to things we have not done?......
@@AlanMolstad well Jesus said if you look with lust you commit adultery in your heart, that's something you think. Jesus also said if you hate someone in your heart if you have murdered them in your heart. Both of those are things you think
Cool, but my question is how is that justified? Animals are incapable of sinning, yet God intentionally makes these innocent animals get torn limb to limb, and eat their own babies. You can say what you want for why this happens, but I'm wondering how it's justified that this happens. If it's not justified, then that means God is evil, as he made naturally evil things that's only purpose is to eat and suffer. If you see this have a great day, and please answer if you can. I'm curious
@XeroX The fall of man is a reason for why nature is red in tooth and claw. But it hardly means God is indifferent to natural evil, nor sadistically enjoys observing it. But there is the goal of redeeming fallen man and creation, which conveyed in the Scripture. So, Christ came to redeem the loss.
For more related reading, see www.equip.org/article/old-earth-creationism-and-the-fall/
again....thats your private judgement about what is good and not good.
@@AlanMolstad sooo you think animal torture is good/justified/not bad? Ok. Again, I'm asking you how God allowing the sinless animal's suffering is justified, I don't care about what you think about my opinion, I'm asking YOU about your opinion
@@xerox2227
The Bible says that before man was part of the story that God saw that the world he had created was "good"
that is what the Bible says..
and we know that before the rise of man on the earth that for millions if not billions of years that life was going about its normal path.
And remember, this is the earth that the Lord saw as "good".
When we read the story of Genesis, we notice that while the Bible points out to us that God saw the earth as "good' that the Bible does not seem very interested at all as to what Adam felt about the way the earth was created.
the Bible does not say that Adam also felt that the earth was "good".
Now, we turn the page and its the year 2023 and we find that the children of Adam now consider the way the earth was created as not being "good" at all.
well?.....well thats just too bad.
Get over it.
The Bible did not worry in Genesis what the man thought of the creation, and so why should we think that today that man yet understands how God sees his creation as "good"?
The fact that you dont think the earth was "good" just shows us how humans still got a lot to learn before we see this creation as God does....
So what is my opinion on this matter?
My opinion that if God feels his creation work resulted in a world that he felt was 'good"?
Then thats the final answer.
The lord saw what he had created, and saw it was good.
case-closed.
"Justified"?
The Lord's answer to death?
He allows it to happen to himself on the cross.
"he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
The Lord answer is to let death take him as it takes all life.
and then the Lord shows us that death is overcome.
So the Lord did not run from death, he did not sweep it aside...he did not say that the suffering was too much.
he allowed it to happen , so that its "sting" is removed.
and so,,,,it's down to a matter now of your faith.
For if you just look at the vast amount of death and suffering going on for 13.8 billions years in this universe, then you will never see the point of it.
Children suffer and die
Young mothers tortured to death.
People taken before they were even born....
Death runs wild in the universe.
and then one man speaks and says, "My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives."
Jesus never said that its going to one day add up correctly the same way the world adds up things.
You and I are never going to think, and think, and think real hard about how this world is build on death and suddenly have 'the answer!".
For the Lord never told Job the reason for suffering in this world, so we should not expect we will learn that answer.
But we are asked to trust that the God of the universe will do what is right.