Was there ever an AFRICAN romance language?
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2024
- Today, we will be exploring whether there was ever a North African Romance language, spoken in the former Ancient Roman colonies of the Maghreb.
Sources
www.researchgate.net/publicat...
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As a North-African myself, I've always felt disturbed about how people are so ignorant about our history, but this video is very informative and I can see you're an educated person. Thank you
I suppose because it's complex, information is limited + hard to study and possibly...
1. study is not really in the interest of political powers currently in charge in Northern Africa.
2. aaaand not in the interest of people in power outside of africa
To sprinkle in a fun fact -> there has even been a germanic tribe moving all the way down to northern africa in the 5th century.
Which country?
I feel like they are just seen as one of the many islamic, desert countries so that's why they get dismissed really fast.
Usually muslim historiography during the middle agea had little to no interest in anything previous to the arrival of islam. It was just hard to reconcile that there could be glory and prosperity before islam,ancient egypt would be a good example.
Cuh, you’re not special
Not to forget that to this day, 7 varieties of Mozarabic languages have been found in the south of the Iberian Peninsula thanks to aljamiad ("latin" written in the Arabic script) vestigial texts.
The texts are mainly jarchas (pronounced as /ˈhar.tʃaz/), which were short poems about tragical love.
they're also *very* horny
For Arabs poems aren't that out of the questions when they're about Love and considering the Arabs had the Emirates of córdoba it isn't surprising
As an Italian, I can say your cardinal vowels were perfect when you spoke Latin. Wonderful video, btw, you've just gained a new subscriber!
I agree however, I noticed that he kinda slipped of with the diphtongs. Instead of Mau̯rɛtaːnja, he turned the diphtongs into ɔː
But yeah, the rest was perfect
@@starwarsnerd47484erm actually
@@Joovus Erm acktuwally 🤓 he also pronounced Caesariensis a bit wrong because he turned the "ae" from a diphtong (ae̯) into an a...
But just for the record this still doesn't mean his pronounciation was bad, his Latin is still impressive
@@starwarsnerd47484erm actually🤓🤓 Latin e is generally agreed to be /e/ when it’s not short and stressed, Latin a is /ä/ and, bar some Greek names, i is only a consonant at the beginning of a sentence or between vowels/diphthongs(sometimes it may also be a consonant in a conjunctive verb: juvāre -> adjuvāre). Also, it’s Maurētānia(Maurītānia), not Mauretānia.
@@bigbo1764 Erm acktoowalley I was using Vulgar Latin when talking about Maurētānia, since it was likely used during the time the Romans occupied Maurētānia, so I am correct. 🤓
Kidding obviously, didn't know that it was Maurētānia and not Mauretānia. Also the i to j (or rather yod Ig) was just a typo.
But erm actually I was right about my a's since it is generally agreed upon that Latin a is not /ä/ but /a/
There's a very common latin loanword used in Chaoui (a berber language from the Aures mountains which you mentionned) which is "Ghawsa". I believe it came from latin "Causa" which gave us "Chose" in French, "Cosa" in Spanish...
*** "Gh" makes the french "r" sound
How is the word used in Chaoui?
@@FireRupee it means "thing" or "something"
E.g. "Texsed ghawsa?" = Do you want something?
***X makes an unvoiced sound similar to french "r"
@@1lyac Interesting. Thanks!
6:45 - That's very interesting, because there is "rosto" in Portuguese and "rostro" in spanish, and both means face.
In Portuguese, we also have the word "cara," which is way more commonly said than the word "rosto."
@@cantrusthestory Also "cara" is >90% commonly used in Spanish, but that doesn't mean that "rostro" is not a typical synonym.
Interestingly enough, "cara" was a vulgar latin word used in the whole empire, derivative from educated term "kara" taken from Ancient Greek.
A
@@BlackHoleSpainand "haz" as well :) but i think its very uncommon for "face", but it is the most "spanish-sounding" version of "faccia" to me
Nevertheless, we just have the adjective "facial".
We have the word "rost" in Romanian which used to mean mouth but lost that meaning over time. Though we still have the verb "a rosti" which means to utter/pronounce
As a North African Berber, I read that Lisan Latini Ifriqi had still been recorded in 07th Islamic century/ 13th Gregorian
لا تقول berber لأنه معنى هذي الكلمة بربري او همجي قول Amazigh امازيغي
Nice video. Greetings from Romania to our other Romance brothers
Salve da Roma
Un abbraccio dall'Italia! (A hug from Italy!)
Trinity makes no sense bro, wake up, you are a pagan
There was also mozzarabic, moçárabe or mozárabe, spoken in the iberian peninsula during the muslim conquest, a romance language with lots of arabic influences! Beautiful language, if I say so. Great video, by the way. You gained a new subscriber! Excited for your next videos.
And now we already have a European Semitic language, descended from Arabic, with huge Romance influence, it's the Maltese language
Mozzarabic is as african as ladino is so that example wouldnt work
Kind of like the romanian of Africa. Kinda cool
@@Walid-gm2nsAnd is the only arabic based language written in the latin alphabet!
@@XiangnuKhaanit is moreso than Ladino, which is much closer tied to Spanish than Mozarabic is (and has not primarily been spoken on the African continent, with the exception of Ḥaketía in Northern Morocco and a little bit in Algeria, the other and today more well known Ladino varieties were spoken primarily in Southern Europe were and the Middle East in the Ottoman Empire, especially Turkey, far less closely linked to the African continent
Really nice video!!! I just wanted to point out that betacism wasn't probably imported from Africa to Spain. I remember reading a latin joke that went something like "the Spaniards must be happy, because for them to live (vivere) and to drink (bibere) is the same thing"
Maybe betacism is native, but the phrase was said by an Italian, Giulio Cesare Scaligero. It wasn't a latin joke.
That's not only a really interesting question, but also a way of answering it that I found very convincing. I feel enriched
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was lovely in more ways than one. You have a very good voice for narration to my ears. And the simple logic of the "yes, there ought to have been, but it's not like we get taught about these things for bad reasons" I thought about when I saw this title in my suggested videos was answered beautifully. I also recently discovered distant ancestors of mine were Amazigh, which just made this even nicer. I've subscribed and look forward to more from you in the future.
bro i was literally thinking about this shit earlier today now this video pops up nice one man
This was an extremely well made video and broken down it was easy to understand as a former latin student you have brought back etymology love that made me study it in the first place :D
I've been interested in this for several months, and this video gave me more information in eight and a half minutes than I've been able to find on my own in all those months. Thanks!
Just discovered this channel and I loved your design in general as well is color and font choises in particular
It would have been amazing if an African romance language survived into the modern day. By the way, betacism, isn't just a Spanish thing. It occurs in most romance languages and even some non romance languages too. V turns to B and back to V again. It's just a natural sound shift that occurs in Romance languages.
It's much more common in Spanish than it is in Italian though. But it isn't unique... as for non-romance languages, in Greek it happened the most, as in modern Greek β is near always a "v" sound instead of the ancient Greek β which may have been more similar to the Latin b.
Sardinian is actually
@myfaceismyshield5963 Sardinian, Few spot in Corsica and my language we have that.
Such an amazing and in-depth video on an obscure topic I love. Great work! Subscribed
10 words in Berber with Latin origin:
- ⴰⴼⵔⴰⵙ Afras, a pear from Pyrus= pear tree
- ⴰⵙⵏⵓⵙ Asnus, a jackass (animal and adjective) from Latin Asinus meaning exactly the same.
- ⴰⴼⵓⵍⵍⵓⵙ Afullus, a chicken from pullus= a young fowl
- ⵜⴰⵖⴰⵡⵙⴰ Taɣawsa, a thing, from latin Causa= a case, a thing
- ⵜⵉⵍⵉⵏⵜⵉⵜ Tilintit, lentils, from Latin Lent
- ⵜⴰⴽⵔⵔⵓⵙⵜ Takrrust, a car, from Carrus= wheeled cart
- ⵓⵔⵓⵚ Uruṣ, a bear, from Ursus
-ⵜⴰⴼⴰⵙⴽⴰ Tafaska, a religious holiday/ sacrifice, from Latin Paska, from Greek Pascha, from Aramaic etc, meaning a Jewish festival with some sacrifice rituals..
- ⵓⵍⵎⵓ Ulmu, country elm, from Ulmus the same plant.
- ⵓⵔⵜⵉ Urti, a garden/ agricultural field, from Hortus same meanings
Etc etc
I was expecting this to have a lot more views. Very well done
Great channel. Deserves a following. Glad to have found it👍
great video seriously impressed by this!
Great stuff! Glad to be here before you take off
I’ve been looking for a channel like this, just suscribed
Very impressed with the knowledge and skill displayed in this video. Dropped a sub. Hope to see more
Great video!
I quite enjoyed this, thanks!
Subscribed.
Brooooo you did it! This video really put on you the map.
Great video, as always.
Such a great video 👏 congrats
I just love this kind of videos, just some guy talking about something he's passionate about and educating us on a fascinating topic.
Très intéressant, beau travail ! Merci
as always, a lovely video
I always wanted to learn how to make videos like these. I want to congrats you for your future success brother, keep up the good work
👍
Congratulations for your excellent work
This video really made me think about how little that fact is talked about, great work
May the UA-cam algorithm bless you I really like this type of content
That is a very interesting topic, I’ve never thought about it before!
Underrated channel, subscribed
Much appreciated!
Interesting history. Great job!
Great job mate
Very nice video! You just got a new follower! I wish you fast growth and good feedback!
what incredible research! you just earned a sub. love from somalia 🇸🇴
This video is really good and informative, something I cant say for most history related videos are. UA-cam is usually pretty bad for it, but you're a really cool exception. Keep at it.
I really appreciate the support man!💯
Very intesting. Could you consider making a video about how Latin's case system collapsed? Your mention was rather offhand, but very informative.
This is a thrilling new area of study! Props to the presenter, and let's see what can be resurrected and demonstrated as the lost (but perhaps re-found) African Romance Language we can still enjoy!
Holy cow, how do you only have 2.5k subs? This video is an incredible look into these lingustics
I really like your videos ❤
How do you make it and how do you get your source and articles for your videos ?
hey bro, ngl your videos are unique. you just have to be patient until the yt algorithm kicks in. in the meantime, do not give up bro and keep up the work!
Thanks for the support man! 💯
Thank you. This is a very informative video you made. In addition to the list you provided near the end of your video, I might also add that Latin extensively influenced the agricultural corpus of the Berber languages. In Kabyle, for example, there are the following words:
- iger “plowed and sown field”
< Latin ager “field, farm”
- urti ”orchard (especially of fig-trees)” < Late Latin (h)ortus
- kkal “[to curdle]” < Romance *kagl- < Latin coagulate
It is so extensive that many Berberists and other Afro-Asiaticists state that Berber’s lineage had a rather late familiarization with agriculture (it seems like a form of hunting and gathering persisted for a while), only revolutionizing after the introduction of Latin and the associated Romans’ plow agriculture method to North Africa.
Then later you also have lingua franca, and even later pataouète. There has *always* been some Romance influence on Africa.
Amazing vide, I really enjoyed your the pronounciations of latin words!
great video
Great video. I was aware that Romance languages had been developed in North Africa but had died out unfortunately soon. Thank you for making me more informed about them.
Very interesting vid, would be interested to see your sources and do some reading
this was a really good video. congrats from italy
Good video bro
We need more brothers making linguistics videos! Subscribed
Great video and an awesome topic, thanks! I think you could benefit from slightly quicker narration and editing (you know, short modern attention span and stuff), while this is a completely normal human speech, it feels really slowly paced by modern youtube's standards. I mean, I still did watch through an entire thing but I feel like those videos are insanely underrated rn and maybe this aspect contributed to it
Dude so good at saying the names along with proper spelling it’s uncanny. So nice
Nice video
Underrated channel
That was informative, can you give the list of your sources in the description? :D Of course I'm going to subscribe to your channel, that goes without saying.
Your voice is very pleasing
Sardinian here, as you said we are the closest living relatives to african romance, we have the same vocalism and a strong betacism, we still use the periphrastic future formed by habeo + pp (deo apo a amare : I'll love), and as I read, we shared some terms like spanu, a red-brownish colour , and acina, grape, unused elsewhere.
Fun fact, the Milky Way in berber and sardinian languages have the same name (if translated) : the hay way
Is Maltese like this too?
@@thangamrajini8478 afaik Maltese is a semitic language, with a lot of loanwords came from Sicilian and Italian
Excellent video. One can only wonder how those African dialects would have developed, but they seemed to be similar to Spanish in many regards, even the rostrum thing, which in Spanish is rostro and it means face
from what i recall, inscriptions in african romance share the most similarities with sardinian, which is not a dialect of italian but is in fact the earliest known language to diverge from latin, making it the sister to all other romance languages. if they are related, this would mean there's an entire "southern" branch of the romance languages that just barely survives into our own time.
Interesting video. Would love to see some sources
I know this isn’t what your video is about, I just want to say that the type face you chose is gorgeous.
I see a few similarities with Portuguese.
Betacism, though not standard in Portuguese, is prevalent in the North of Portugal.
The palatalisation of /s/ at the end of syllables is also a characteristic of Portuguese from Portugal (though usually not in Brazilian varieties).
And "rostrum" in Portuguese evolved to "rosto", which indeed mean "face".
Very interesting. The connection wirh Spanish latin seems inescapable. In fact, " rostro " in Spanish means face.
Accurate, interesting, exciting, important...I do subscribe
pretty intresting Topic! Never really occured to me to think about the leftovers of latin in Africa
as an italian i love this channel and ur latin is perfect!! new subscriber gained!
Interesting, I speak spanish and it seems some of the quirks we have like short e and o transforming into ie and ue come from african latin
I think it's worth noting that the names of the months in Tamazight are suspiciously similar to Romance ones, ex. 'Yennayer' for January or more generally the New Year.
yo this is mindblowing especially about the way arabic percolated into north africa slowly
Super interesting
NativLang has a great video about this exact topic!
Rostrum also evolved to mean face in Spanish! In Spanish, the word "rostro" is used fairly commonly to mean face. Of course, cara is used far far more often.
im just curious but what are your sources
Good point.
Do you know if greek colonies in libya (cyrene) had any (hellenic) influence on amazigh whatsoever?
At least in any east-north African dialects
I have friends who speak a language called Romizian/Romiziano. They live in North Africa but don’t have a specific home or land. They taught me “Zeií” means yes “Kari” means face, “Zentai” means sit, “Vonjei” means hello, “Bwano dèa” means good day. The numbers, Wuna, Doz, Trez, Pautro, Zeinko, Zes, Seto, Xotra, Nuíve, Dèza. It’s quite interesting to hear
Thats a good one, can't fool anybody though
My understanding is that there were no /v/ sounds in Latin. The letter "v" was a /u/ sound. When it was at the beginning of a syllable, it created what we might now call a /w/. So it wasn't /v/ becoming /b/. It was /w/ becoming /b/ in Iberia. Also, "c" was always /k/. That means that the saying "Veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weni, widi, wiki."
interesting piece of this puzzle is the vandals, when invading they really did a number to the roman colonies that remained untouched after rome fell.
I wonder if any fragments of Creole dialects still survive in the mountains. Furthermore, perhaps Sardinian could be said to be the last extant African Latin left in a way.
The fundation of Sardinian, Napoletan, Sicilian, Calabrese and Corsican were based of African latin.
That influence is also languagea from Liguria, which have that in between settentrionale - meridionale feel to it.
I would not say that b and v were confused. The thing is that v started as u and thus in shifting to a labial glide and then the fricative, it would just have been assoicated the the closest thing natural to the phonetics of the people using the language. For instnance, there is no modern equivalent of v in Arabic. B does not have it fricative counterpart. So Latin/romance words used in Arabic tend to have a B-sound in place of a V-sound. And learners of Languages with the differentiation between the two have trouble hearing the difference. for them it can be that they consider them the same sound... I speak from experience with my Arabic speaking friends. Hebrew even uses he same symbol with or without a dot to represent the difference between Bet and Vet or course, it also has Vav, where Arabic does not have all of these.
Thank you, this is a topic that I became quite interested in a few years ago. For a long time, I tried to understand how the Arabs managed to stay so long in Spain and this is maybe a part of the answer. The people who came to Spain spoke a variety of Latin, which was still quite close to the Latin spoken there. It certainly made communication much easier. But the sources are not very rich on this topic I'm afraid. The political gains to present each of the protagonists as being a Foreigner or a "Roumi" masked the reality of populations who spoke similar languages.
Maybe this video about African Latin may interest you
ua-cam.com/video/Y01C1BKu8Tk/v-deo.htmlsi=7tBbrKyyKOv6W72y
I'm not quite sure. The Maghreb is a large country. The Romanized parts were the rich parts, that were part of the empire. Their inhabitants would less likely migrate to Spain. They mostly correspond to the North-Eastern part (Carthage at the center).
But the South-Western parts, corresponding to most of Morocco, were not romanized, were not part of the Empire, weren't Christian, converted quickly to islam, and were much poorer.
Those poorer parts of the Maghreb when the roman state collapsed (byzantine) invaded the richer parts (east and coasts) and spain at the same time.
@@user-jt8vj1vm6y You are certainly right, but the presence of Arabs in Spain lasted for 700 years and they were various waves of migrants from Maghreb...
@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 There was a Roman Limes (frontier) in the Maghreb, much like in Britain (Hadrian's wall), separating the south-western non-romanized parts from the north-eastern romanized parts.
In fact the word "berber" itself comes probably from romanized berbers themselves (who were all roman citizens, by the 7th century) and that's how they called the non-romanized people of the South-West (barbarus), a word that entered Arabic (as Barbari) then back to latin languages.
The collapse of the Empire under the Arabs allowed these people to invade both the richer romanized coast and Iberia.
Their heartland would be the Middle Atlas in Morocco, from where they threatened and later invaded the Roman Empire.
And their quick conversion to islam prevented any reconquista from happening in the Maghreb, as the romanized christian coastal populations were numerically matched by these southern "Moroccan" non romanized people, who converted to islam and took power, and later founded many dynasties (Almoravids, Almohads, etc).
Interesting, it sounds like one could make a case that Western North African Romance survives to some extent in Iberian Romance.
My theory is that it dissappeared in the islamic conquests, the same almost happened to the iberian romace languages, latin grew stale and restrictive, meanwhile arabic was new fluid and exciting, only reason that iberian romance languages survived is because of Asturias
Imagine a universe where Rome made it down to like Mozambique and Africa just ends up speaking latin
Like the purtugese get down there and they just can semi understand eachother
Sounds cool, that would be a really interesting idea for a conlang!
@@TheMiluProject what's that :0
Well,Mozambique speaks portuguese.
@@dhsf5937 not a native language.
There still Latin words found in the Maghrebi arabic dialects, but it is difficult to differentiate and distinguish them from the words that came after the migration of the Andalusian Moriscos. And as an example of Moroccan words that are of Latin origin, we find the word "ţubba" or "ţawba" according to the specific dialect, which means "the rat", It comes from the Latin word for mole, "talpa", and in Italian, they call the rat "Topo" .Also, we find "Lambūţ" or "Ləbbūţ", which means "the funnel", and It comes from the Latin word "Imbut" And also it means "funnel" And we also find the word "qniyya" or "qlayna" which comes from the Latin word for hare "Cuniculus", Where "hare" also in Catalan is "qonill " .
Also the word "shulya" which means chair (Especially for large and plastic ones ) comes from the Latin word "sella"
Also, in the northern Moroccan dialect (Tangier and its surrounding cities) , some words still have a plural form by adding an “s” at the end .For example, we say usually "danōnis" the plural of one "danoune" (Yoghurt) instead of "danōnāt" (also correct) or "dwānən".
And we say usually also "ţikis" the plural of one "ticket" instead of "ţikiyāt" (also correct).
But most likely this linguistic phenomenon is influenced by the Tongue of the Andalusian Moriscos and Spanish not the Roman Latin.
Tunisian have it
In Portuguese one of the words we use for face is "rosto"
I took Spanish and Latin (and German) in high school; I really enjoyed learning them (and no, I'm not fluent in any of them.) I like to think I learned more about the English language by studying 'foreign' languages.
So, Rome dealt with overpopulation by sending some citizens to North Africa; but now, Italy doesn't want anyone from Africa to step foot on their shores.😶
On a technicality, Haitian-Creole is a language that could be considered African romance based on its origins. It's bit of a stretch though.
Yes there was and there was also an African Germanic language when the Vandals migrated there.
Is this a redo of the older video?
Although they do explore similar topics, this video looks specifically at whether there was a North African Romance language, whereas my other video looks at the possibility of a British Romance language.
Does French count?
No
Would mozarabic or cape verdian creole count?
Wasn't mozarabic spoken in andaluz tho? i might be wrong
@@damiangomez8540 Well yes hut it was spoken by Arabs and africans that arived to the peninsula
I'd say Cape Verdean Creole defo counts.
@@danielcunha4377it doesn’t since it’s not a Romance language, it’s part of the Portuguese creole language family
@@FrancisTheBerd Sorry but Cape Verde isn't part of Africa, as understood at the time.
Africa meant the Maghreb, with white people.
Please don't mix it with a Subsaharan country thousands of miles away.
Betacism is also commum on the North of Portugal
Because of Galego/Spanish
I don't even have to watch this to know the answer is yes. People were still speaking some form of Latin into the 700s AD, so of course it existed. For me the better question is, why isn't there one today? That's where all the exciting history always is for me.