Piper Arrow vs. Mooney M20J - Airplane Showdown Ep. 1
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
- Welcome to episode #1 of the "airplane showdown" series. In this series I will put two airplanes up against each other to find out which airplane is best. Each time both airplanes will be uniquely different, but made to meet the same mission.
I won't choose which is best, I'll leave it up to the community voting in the comments section. So make sure to cast your vote!!!
Up today is the Mooney M20J vs. the Piper Arrow both listed for sale on trade-a-plane. Check out the links below
Mooney - bit.ly/32Ivx3T
Arrow - www.controller.com/listing/fo...
Make sure to share any experiences you have in these airplanes s the community can learn and grow together.
0:00 - The Set Up (Go Vote)
1:19 - The competitors
1:58 - Paint / Interior
3:30 - Avionics
6:01 - Engine / Prop
8:15 - Performance
9:11 - Everything Else
#mytimetofly #mooney #piper - Розваги
Well the jury seems to in on this comparison. The Mooney seems to be the choice of most viewers. No big surprise as I built my channel with Mooney content. Next up I'll forego the Mooney and look to compare a couple of 6 seat heavy haulers.
Yea even though the Mooney can’t land for sht when your tired or landing in mountains. The Mooney is the plane you go to after your done training in a tin can Arrow. Your better off showing what you go to after training, like a Rockwell Commander, Comanche 260c, both with real landing gear. Paying for insurance on an RG airplane is very expensive so it better do at least 180 kts to make it worthwhile otherwise you lying to your family why you bought an airplane with retractable gear with such insane annual inspection costs. Enter Cirrus, the newest version will do 200 kts fixed gear and your insurance comp will love you along with your family.
How could you justify a $1,000,000 cirrus over a $100,000 Mooney just to pay “lower” insurance premiums? Maybe the comparison of new Mooney vs. new Cirrus would be better?
@@MyTimeToFly You mean you can’t just ask your Pappi for a couple million? Duh
Not this guy! Some can, but I make my own money like the majority.
@@MyTimeToFly he sells insurance?
Talked to a retired ATC guy years ago. He said he could always spot a Mooney on his radar as there were two hits - the first one was the plane ,the second was the pilot 😂
Hahaha, nice.
I don’t get it. Enlighten me
@RaceMentally When a pilot moves up to a faster airplane, the pilot tends to "get behind" - so not anticipating what needs to be done, not ready for an approach, or making radio calls after they should happen, so the pilot is behind the airplane (in sequence of completing tasks
Just discovered your channel and am LOVIN it!
Thanks so much Grant!
I’ve owned both - hands down, my Mooney exceeded expectations in my ownership experience. Good comparison video.
Thank you Roger.
Love this topic. Great overall video and sticking to the facts and inserting the opinions till the end lets the viewer make their own decisions, be as genuine as possible. Of course, we fly our aircraft and we'll always like our aircraft :D
Thanks so much! I tried hard to eliminate any bias I have. I’m sure some still came through, but we’re only human I guess. Thanks for being here!
Love how you composed the video. Two real world options for a certain budget (hell all prices are out on control at the moment), then a nice side by side comparison. Also really interesting to hear your thoughts on avionics etc. In the market for a 6 seater so can't wait to see that (and cry about the prices)
Haha, I’ll certainly get on it. Perhaps I’ll let there be differences in prices on that one.
Love the new series content!
Think I'd prefer the Mooney, although I do like the idea of the Arrow's gear coming down automatically. (incase I forget) ;)
Thanks a bunch for the feedback! I'm aligned with you for sure, although another viewer commented that the parts for the auto gear system aren't available anymore, so many of them get disconnected. Bummer!
Bought an Ovation. Fast. Strong. Stable. Modern avionics. Known icing. Very happy
I'd pick the Mooney all day everyday. Speed, efficiency, and great looks, what more can you ask for. Although, as a 1982 M20J owner I may be biased. Really enjoy this "Airplane Showdown" series, great content!
Thanks a bunch!!! I don’t mind the bias, I can’t wait to get a J someday.
And M20J is a crisp handling plane, use the check-list and control the speed from BASE turn, 65kts over the fence!
I actually was faced with this very decision, and which did I choose? The Arrow! And it was an easy decision too. I had $120k to spend, I had roughly 1000 hours in SEL aircraft, and was ready to buy something with more performance than the fixed gear 4 place 150 hp plane I owned at the time. My original plan was to buy a Mooney M20J. When you look at the M20J on paper (or in this video) it seems like the easy, logical choice...until you actually go fly one. I took two different Mooney's I was considering to purchase for test flights, and I decided then and there that if I never EVER sat in a Mooney again, I'd be better off. They handle like you are flying a 200 mph school bus...but unlike a roomy school bus when flying, its like your sitting in a coffin that is two sizes too small. Buy a Mooney? NO WAY NO HOW! I bought an arrrow, and I love it. BTW, my arrow has over 1000 lbs useful load, and I don't think 99% of the mooneys out there have a useful of even 900 lbs, let alone 1000+. Speed is important, but so is comfort.
I appreciate your thoughts here, I'm curious what you mean by "flying a 200 mph school bus". Are you speaking specifically to the heavy controls at speed?
@@MyTimeToFlyI concur with his opinion. I am looking really hard at a Mooney for the extended range offered by the additional Monroy tank.
The Mooney's yoke travel is shallow, controls are heavier than Piper.
The gears are stiffer, they are rubber vs pneumatic of the Piper. Float longer when landing.
The Piper is the better plane all round except for speed and range.
I figured I would only fly 6 hour distance 3 times a year max and it is more worthwhile to find a plane more enjoyable and cheaper to to fly.
The Mooneys are great long distance fast travelling machines but terrible plane just to fly and build hours and pottering around.
You are absolutely right. Anyone buying or flying a Mooney hasn't flown a Piper Arrow III. The Piper Arrow IV is not the best comparison. The Mooney is just what you said, a flying coffin with no room, no fuel and nothing good as far as I am concerned.
@@theaccountant5133 I recently have taken a look at Grumman AA5, if you want performance close to a Mooney or Piper you should take a serious look at this, it is better in almost everything than Piper even, only slightly slower and less range than Mooney, fixed gear, cheaper too.
I didn't buy the plane only because of high engine hours.
To each his own. I own a Mooney M20J and I love it! It’s faster it’s more economical the plane fly smoother than anything I’ve flown not to mention the fixed spar that runs wing tip to wing tip. It has pushrods instead of cables which means no fraying.
The mission discussed makes this an easy choice for me, I take the speed if we are talking cross-country plans. Avionics are comparable, so those 30 extra knots with the same engine are tough to overlook. Thanks for starting a fun discussion!
My pleasure, thanks for being here!
Just wondering about the pre-flight on the T-tail. Do you need a step ladder to inspect?
It sure seems like you would. I've never had a T-tail, so I'm just not sure.
I am 6’6”, it’s at eye level.
Thanks for the details. Seems manageable for most (even without being 6’6”)
My handle says it all. Although I question the cruise speed of the Mooney - even running 75% power, I 'only' get 162kts cruise from my M20J - and it has all the speed mods and no wing step. I've flown both, love both, and chose the Mooney.
Thanks a bunch Oz! I haven’t been in a J myself, so I appreciate the real world data!
I’ll pick the Mooney, repaint, replace avionics and add autopilot…then declare bankruptcy! But will be totally worth it 😀
You don't even have to add the autopilot, it's got an S-tec 60-2 in it already. Of course that GFC500 is a pretty sweet unit.
I have a M20C. It takes a Turbo-Arrow lll, which I also had, to match performance. I kept the Mooney for two thirds the fuel burn and a fraction of the maintenance.
Nice! I feel blessed to have my C as well!
The arrow is expensive (especially with the turbo).
I just bought an Arrow. I am 6’6” with broad shoulders. I sat in a Mooney and had to lean over to not put too much pressure on the window then in the copilots seat I could not close the door.
The seat behind me is useful in the Arrow, just slightly useful. The front seat did not go back far enough in the Mooney making the backseats just the stops for the front seat thus making the back seat useless.
My Arrow needs all new radios and instruments, I did have a new ADS-B transponder installed at annual, a new interior is on the list along with 4 point seatbelts. My engine is less than 100 hours SMOH and lucky me my prop has a recurring AD I need an inspection every 100 hours. I also must have a visual inspection of my fuel injection fuel injection lines and spark plug wires every 100 or 500 hours. We just brought the Arrow home January 21,2022 after a very long annual. I wanted a Lance but could not find one in my price range and my dad had an Arrow long ago so I have a lot of time in the Arrow. My plane was built in 1972 sold as a 1973 but only has 4400 hours and only 3, 100 hour inspections.
I vote ARROW.
Sound like the Arrow is a good option for your mission. Just curious, did you consider a Comanche?
Yes, the flight school has a Comanche. It would have been what what I bought except we took it for a ride it was very similar to the Arrow the head room was a little tight and shoulder room was about the same. The Arrow’s seats goes back farther and the Arrow’s back seat has a little more leg room behind me.
Also my flight instructor and former coworker for 20 years and I sit all the way back and rub shoulders in the Comanche, in the Arrow with no rear pax I can slide back giving us shoulder room.
Bottom line, back seat in the Comanche is useless behind me if I am comfortable. I have a family wife, daughter, son in law my daughter gets to sit behind me in the Arrow, she is 5’5”.
In the Comanche I can and did scoot up to allow someone to sit behind me but I could not taxi the aircraft. This is not a problem, my wife is also a pilot, unless she is not along.
The Arrow also uses the IO 360, less expensive to over haul/ replace than the O 540 but the Arrow only has 200HP. The Arrow II has the 4 inch longer fuselage than the Arrow, that was an important detail to keep in mind when hunting aircraft.
Thanks for all the great details. Seems you found the right bird!
And my arrow hauls well over 100 lbs more than the lightest Mooneys.
How would you compare these two with the 177RG?
The 177RG is definitely lower performance in my book, but if you want a pretty efficient high wing…it’s a good choice for sure!
I'd pick the Mooney, hands down. The range statistic tells all you need to know. Both essentially have the same size engine. With ess fule the Mooney takes you the same distance and does it much quicker. Also, 70or 80 pounds of useful load in aircraft of this size is a LOT .. it's like a generous luggage allowance for a couple going on a long trip.
There is no doubt the Mooney is one of the most efficient airplanes ever built. I wish they could get back to building them.
Have never met an IA who likes working on mooneys
I haven’t met him in person, but Don Maxwell seems to like them. I do agree they have many small spaces and LOTS of screws.
@@arthurbrumagem3844 What the hell are you talking about? My IA has said the exact opposite. Mooneys are simpler airplanes to work on. For example, the landing gear on the Mooney doesn’t have an actuator switch that’s weight driven but instead driven by air speed.
@@gmccord1970 just saying what my IAs over the years have said, no need to get snarky.
Objective. Just subscribed.
Thanks a bunch!!!
Good points , Speeds from the POH are optimistic. The 20J is a 155 knot airplane.
I don't have any actual seat time in one, so I'll have to take your word for it. Thanks for being here Tim.
And the Arrow is a 130 knot airplane.
I wonder what exactly makes the arrow so much slower. Physics I guess!
Boils down to differences in airframe construction. Mooneys are designed to be much more aerodynamically streamlined and efficient. Less frontal drag and such. But as mentioned above, 150-155 knots is more accurate. A lot of Mooney owners (and aircraft owners in general) tend to overestimate their cruise speeds. In actuality, to get 160 plus knots out of a Mooney, you'll need to run 75% power or better, which amounts to 11-12 gallons per hour. Economy cruise is more like 135-140 knots.
I mostly agree that we inflate numbers, but I do get some pretty great numbers (above 140 knots) on 75% power burning less than 10gph.
I agree with the consensus of the efficiency and speed but I sat in a 1961 Mooney M20B last weekend and at 5'7" I felt way to short. I had the seat pulled all the way forward and I felt like I was sitting on the yoke. Also I little tight fit with a couple of bigger people in front.
You make an interesting point. I'm 6'1" and feel very comfortable in my C model Mooney...but it would be hard to feel comfortable for somebody your height.
I flew an Arrow II before I bought my M20J, and definitely think the Mooney is the better choice. That said, I did like the Arrow a lot, and if they were faster it'd be a much tougher choice between the two.
I agree the speed difference is a hard pill to swallow!
I'm a Mooney fan!!
Me too! Thanks for watching.
Mooney all day - and a new panel !
I’m with you!
I got my commercial rating in the Piper Arrow years ago and it was the Hersey Bar Wing and as for me seeing that the market will increase and now flying in a Mooney 201J model for the first time was very interesting on how fast the gear retracted and the airspeed continues to increase and the leg room I had so my pick of today is you guess the Mighty Mooney
Right on man! Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Nice initiative. But I think you missed a very important aspect to compare: interior space! Confort in cross-country trips are really relevant.
I do know a lot of people are concerned about interior space in the Mooney. I own a C model and just flew a 3.25 hour cross country today. Now I was by myself, but it does not lack in space. I’m 6’1” 200 lbs.
I fly a Mooney M20J as a rental but have been considering an Arrow as a purchase. I love the Mooney. Fast, burns less fuel and looks stylish and retro. But parts are expensive and hard to get. So that’s why I’m leaning to Arrow. But I haven’t flown an Arrow. I’d like too compare that aspect.
I guess it's time to go find an Arrow to "test drive". Check out the Arrow FB group, I'm sure somebody there would take you for a ride.
Good rundown. OCR is a solid company (as is Skywagons)and all logs were available in the ad. I don’t think there is any concern over the amount of detail therein.
Roger that, thanks for vouching with them.
In this case I'd take the Mooney. Fits my mission better.
Although one point you missed on the arrow is that the hydraulic system for the landing gear holds it up. So a manual gear deployment is just press a button the release the hydraulic pressure and the gear goes down. No cranking. That's a pretty cool feature.
That is a pretty cool feature. I’ll stick with my Johnson bar…but I can see how this is an advantage over other electric/hydraulic systems.
@@MyTimeToFly Yes 100% that johnson bar is awesome. But I didn't think the mooney in this video had a johnson bar.
It doesn’t…I should mix ideas, my bad.
I think you did well, you paired 2 planes that are available in our aging GA fleet.
I think you did well, you paired 2 planes that are available in our aging GA fleet.
I was toying between a piper arrow 2 and a Vtail Bonanza, I never gave a thought about a Mooney, but after watching this Vid, I would definitely consider the Mooney now, can you do a comparison between the Mooney and the Bonanza ??
I can certainly knock out a video comparing those 2. I'll work on it.
at 3:36....you took a picture from my airplane??? LOL seriously it is my C172
You have an amazing panel! That's what I was trying to highlight...well done!!!
I would easily pick the Mooney on performance specs alone. The money also wins in this comparison because of its autopilot. Mooney here also has better maintenance history with its more recent overhaul.
Makes great sense to me.
You do have a point with the maintenance history. But... if you compare prices... even a P28B or an arrow is probably cheaper to run. And parts... it's a pretty rethorical question at the moment. The waiting list is long... and for some easy things you will find your aircraft grounded for 8 months or longer unfortunately. I want to be able to fly my aircraft....
Another story is: I am based at a grass field... not the ideal for mooneys....
BTW: The autopilot is NOT mooney specific. Most of the time it's an S-TEC. Can be fitted to almost every aircraft.
@@tobiasgoeller6592 Interesting. I had not heard about Mooneys having unusually long downtime for normal maintenance items.
@@JB_Hobbies here in europe... brace yourself for impact. we have waited months for the parts needed for the fuel tank arrive...
I would pick the mooney, I would only put a engine monitor and upgrade at a later time if possible.
YES! And engine monitor is a game changer imo.
My choice would be the Mooney. Because of the lower engine and prop time, faster Cruise & faster climb.
Right on! Good choice IMO.
Oh yeah the few shots at lucky’s was good. Every pilot or prospective pilot should visit an airplane boneyard.
I haven’t yet, but hope too someday!
I’m checked out in both types and I like each one for what they are and both provide equal fun . For SPEED, I love the M20J. For comfort I like the PA-28R-201
I love the Arrow’s cabin but I also love the Mooney’s performance. Not sure which one I love more.
If specific mission comes into play, I’d likely go for the Arrow. Most missions will be flown within a 120-200 NM distance, which minimizes the 201’s speed advantage. There will also be a need to go to short grass strips with uneven surfaces. This makes me leery about the Mooney’s short gear and lower prop clearance. Plus, the family (wife and daughter) will probably appreciate the Arrow’s more comfy cabin.
It sounds like you've come to a reasonable conclusion given your circumstances. Thanks for sharing your thought process.
By far the Mooney! Best bank for your buck! Better performance and much safer airplane (one-wing design and stronger fuselage, the arrow has issues with corrosion on the wings- enormous cost if it doesn’t pass the inspection!). Also, the Mooney’s handling is better because it uses push-rods instead of cables for the controls.
Thanks for the great video.
My great pleasure, thanks for being here! Very good points, the pushrods do make the airplane handle like a sports car!
Hi from South African vloggers
🇿🇦 😀 ❤️ 🌍
..
Hi there, thanks for being here!
What's the name of the background music?
I tried to look, but I can't seem to find it anymore (switched computers). If I run into it again I'll let you know, but it definitely came from the YT Audio Library.
@@MyTimeToFly , thanks for your efforts. Appreciate it a lot!
I am looking in exactly this mission profile. 4 seater, IFR capable, comfortable travel machine for 3+ grownups. I am looking at a Mooney, Piper Arrow and Beech Debonair.
Of course I'm a little biased, but I don't think you could go wrong with the Mooney. Check out my most recent video talking about the speed / efficiency of the Mooney. It's a great platform.
@@MyTimeToFly In general, I like Mooneys. There are currently two arguments against it. One is the availability of spare parts due to Mooney continuously going bankrupt and the second is the headspace of the back seats. Depending on the model, top speed and load capacity aren't brilliant either. The general efficiency and look is nice though and all three models would need extra money for the panel I guess.
I definitely understand the concerns. I have been fortunate to not have any parts issues myself. Of course, I would highly encourage you to get in and fly each model you’re concerning. If I can be of help I’m any way, just say the word!
I own a Piper Arrow 200 and have flown in Mooneys. I opted for Arrow mainly because it has more space for cargo. I am an avid cyclist and frequently fly with my mountain bike and associated gear. I also like to plane camp. No room for that in a Mooney, so that was a deal breaker.
Sounds perfect to me, pick the right bird for your mission!
Is this Mooney 20 for sale?
I’m sure it’s long gone by now, I made the video some time ago.
I fly with a friend in his arrow (1977). The front seats of my Mooney M20C (1964) are actually no different in comfort. They just sit lower in the Mooney. (Like a sportscar). I get far better fuel economy and actually fly a little faster than he does. I have speed mods and a scimitar prop. He has a standard 2 blade prop.
That’s fantastic, don’t even need the extra 20hp.
@@MyTimeToFly yeah we busted each other’s chops but I still win the race and with better economy #Mooneyzoom!!
Mooney m20J is what a own, fast, efficient & comfortable. My vote is for the Mooney !!
Right on! Thanks for your vote!
I’ve flown both, however, the Arrow was not a “T” tail. I will say the Arrow is also easier to fly. It’s not as fast as the Mooney and it’s much easier to slow down. You have to really be on the ball with your decent and pattern planning with the Mooney. That being said, I’ll take the speed and efficiency of the Mooney.
I hear you there, speed all the way.
Plan on 155 to 160 knots on the Mooney. Unless that modified engine gives you something else don't expect 170 ever. I put a Powerflow on my E and all I could tell was that it increased fuel flow. I wouldn't do it again.
I used to own an M20C (N7701M) with a bunch of speed mods. It had an STCd IO-360 200 HP and it would really move along. It had an aux tank in the back and you could stretch the legs on it for sure. Although the speed was awesome; the room and UL did not fit my mission and now I own a sweet Piper Dakota. I miss the speed sometimes but my wife is happy with the comfort.
Keeping the wife happy is priority #1! That sounds like a sweet C model, I’d love to find one like that!
Brad, how about the Fuel Flow? I get 8.5-9 gph with 155kts. Yes the Dakota was a super plane... it was a tough choice but I took speed and economy vs snug fit.... besides, I fly most of the time by myself.
Are you saying you get 8.5-9 gph in the Dakota? Doesn’t that have the O-540 in it?
@@MyTimeToFly no. I have Mooney M20J. My Lycoming IO360 flying RICH of Peak ( I dont have Gami Injector so Lycoming says stay Rich.) Once in cruise, I lean it out to find Peak in my #2 Cylinder, that's the hot one, the bring in back on the rich side about 25-50 degrees. That gives me my 8.5-9gph. That Monster 540 getting 8.5 - 9 gph... sure but it wont be flying.
I see now, I just read your previous comment wrong! Thanks so much for clearing that up! Sounds like you’ve got a well dialed in machine!!!
One thing not spoken about here is cabin room. At 6'4" and 270#'s I don't fit very well in a Mooney. Also, dollar for dollar I would not even consider an Arrow. I would look at a Comanche. Very little (if any) more $ and a lot more airplane than both.
The Comanche is certainly a great airplane, it's a shame they stopped producing them. I believe the 180 Comanche was an unsung hero of the lineup.
I’ll take the Mooney every time.
I'm completely aligned!
Arrow IV is probably my favorite Piper ever, but the Mooney made a clean sweep here. Does an Arrow have more rear seat space than a 201? If 201s still suffer from "Camaro back seat syndrome" then that's the only major thing that I can see steering some missions that way.
I don’t think the 201 “medium body” has more leg room, you’d probably have to move up to a long body Mooney for that.
Jetz, I own a 201. I looked at the M20Cs and remembered that I have friends and family that are over 6'. That left me with either an F or J - can't really afford the K's and up. Both are longer than the C's by about 8" which is huge in leg room. Most F models now have all the upgrades to make them as fast as the J's, but I got really lucky and found a 78J in my price range in Oct of 2020 just before the stupid price increases that have hit the GA market lately... Nice for me, but, if I break this one, I'm done cause I can't afford another. To be honest, Most of my flying is done single pilot and my wife who likes to sit in the back so she can see better is 5"3' and the length i not an issue. Width of my J, stock is 43.5" at the shoulders - more than a 182 and even a Bonanza. If you are ok with a Sports Car seat - low to the floor vs more chair like, 172/182 then you will be quite happy with a J.
@@dforr2981 Sounds pretty nice! Mooneys are on the top of my list as a first plane to buy, but at the moment I struggle to imagine ever having better than M20C money. Fortunately I'm not too concerned about the rear seats - I'd be considering removing them for weight. I also really dig the big Man-Lever landing gear. Of course for someone with a true 4-seat mission, things may be different, probably 201 represents minimum-Mooney for putting Mom in the back. I'm glad to hear the Mooneys have lower seats though. I'm not into the Cessna truck thing.
Awesome details man…I couldn’t agree more.
Big man lever…I love it! Seriously, you’ll fall in love with the Mooney…I guarantee it!
I pick mooney certainly
Thanks for watching (and I agree)
I think the one thing, though, that I would like to add, is that you can't just run out and land a mooney like you can like you can just kind of run out and land a Cherokee/arrow. You have to practice preferably with a experienced Mooney instructor to make sure that you're not coming in too fast. And to me that's the only thing that sticks in my mind as whether I would or would not prefer one of or the other, just that the mooney requires a little more skill perhaps. Other than that, I think it's a no-brainer.
Makes sense. It took me 6-7 hours to get comfortable landing the Mooney. I was coming from Cessna 172s though, so it was a big change!
@@MyTimeToFly the 172 is quite different... true. The mooney isn't any more complicated to handle than every other plane I think. Get your speeds right and you can even land it in LSPV (where there are quite many mooneys home-based)
Mooney, the J is a classic, but like a Porsche 911….has same seating position, which some don’t like it. In either case, join one of the type groups online.
Great idea for anybody interested in the Mooney.
Although I am a Piper (Comanche) man the Mooney shines in this comparison
I appreciate you being honest! I’ll never say a bad word about the Comanche, they are sweet birds too!
I have about 100 hours in the Arrow and none in Mooney and I'll pick the Mooney hands down. It's disappointing the Arrow isn't quicker and even a Cutlass 172 RG with a 180 hp can out run it.
That is a bummer. I hear they don't glide very well either. I've never been in an Arrow, but maybe someday soon!
For slim people first choice is the mooney. What a great plane! But If you carry a well feeded belly, stay outside. Beside the fact that entering takes a pretty part of flight time, some to do you can´t. i.e. checking the second gear indicator between the seats, training pin and fuel switch is ardous. Although both types have a IMHO a todays inacceptable construction detail: one door for four people, all climbing over the wing.
I like arrows, but not a fan of the T-tail. As someone who is soon approaching their A&P, I would choose the Mooney. It is a more efficient airplane and easier to work on. Hard to properly pre-flight a T-tail without a ladder🤷♂️
Thanks Eric. You've got to be closing in on the A&P real quick! I hope it's still going well for you.
@@MyTimeToFly I will be a certified Airframe mechanic by May! Putting in about 40hrs a week just at school, but worth it. I will have to email you some pictures of the 172 I’m working on. I have the wings completely off of it.
Very cool man, I’d love to see them.
I went thought this in real life. I went and bought the Mooney last summer.
Right on man!
An extra $5000 is a small price to pay for peace of mind knowing the Mooney wing wont fall off. I flew a T tail Arrow in school, very heavy feeling with the tail out of ground effect on takeoff/landing.
Thanks for sharing that real world experience. I hadn't thought about the difference ground effect could make.
The T tail is a ground lover and not a good choice. I love my Arrow II, roomy, low maintenance for 25 yrs.& economical to fly.
... look at the statistics... the PA28 is not a bad design (~50'000 airplanes built, not even 10 lost their wings). If you do the corrosion inspection (which you must) it's not a problem at all. How many mooneys have had landing accidents with wheels up? How many mooneys did have problems with the (overly compliacted) elevator trim?
@@tobiasgoeller6592 question is with the choice between the two, which would I choose? I have experience in both and own Mooney. The other commenter likes his non-t Arrow II he has owned for 25 years. Wing falling off isn’t in the same category as a gear up unless it results in fatalities. The PA24 I flew in college was retired at 20k hours, without wing failure. As risky as flying is, we have to mitigate whichever rational or irrational worst case scenario fear we have.
@@HairHelmet True. I do have experience on both types, too. Being at a grass field... I would not recommend anything with a t-tail...
A MOONIAC TILL DEATH! Had three, never failed me once...every Piper I flew tried to kill me...landed them at nearest airport and flew home commercial, I hate commercial!!! 😂
Good stuff!
Mooney M20J would stand as my prefered choice ! Even though the Arrow stays a reliable aircraft.
The "J" is a great blend of performance and simplicity. Now the price of the J is starting to reflect it's capability.
Mooney for sure
I'm with you on this one.
Is the Arrow for sale ?
It was when I made the video, likely isn’t anymore.
I had a Piper Arrow PA28R-200 1969 this is the fastest ever mfg. 1969 to 1971 30ft wing span a foot shorter smaller stabilizer 65%power 150 mph 75% POWER 165MPH @10 GPH I had this aircraft 15 years with little repairs.
Those seem like good numbers to me. It’s a shame they slowed down in the later years.
My 1975 Arrow flys 160 mph @ 10 gph. My 3 blade prop slowed cruise to 160 from 165 with 2 blade.
I think you're a bit off on your speeds for the Mooney, most us J owners are true around 150-160 depending LOP/ROP operation. If you're talking ground speed then thats a whole other issue
I'm not sure this is really a great way to compare two make/models of aircraft, paint and avionics are not really the way to decide Mooney vs Arrow. Your performance section is really the objective way (with correct data) to make that call then paint, engine data and avionics are the way to determine the specific tail number.
Roger that. Thanks for the real world numbers.
Mooney all day long. Much higher speed at same gph. YES. What you sacrifice is interior cabin width and height room.
Seems like a decent trade off for most!
I’d pick the Mooney.
It’s hard to beat the Mooney’s speed and efficiency.
Truth!
I am in the Mooney camp
Right on! Hard to argue with.
I pick the Mooney because of speed, efficiency and autopilot. I would like to see a comparison of two single engine planes that have higher useful loads and headroom. I'm 6'6" 280 pounds so with full fuel I couldn't bring my wife and dogs with me.
Sounds like a plan. I will work on a high useful load comparison. Maybe a Cherokee 6 and something else!
Mooney hands down. The 40 knot cruise difference with its fuel economy, and better useful load…
Right on! I have to agree.
Mooney would be my choice .
How did my pictures of N6NN end up in your video?
They came from trade-a-plane. I asked them for permission to use them a couple of times with no response. Perhaps I got impatient. I’m very happy to give you the credit for them in the video description if you give me good contact info.
@@MyTimeToFly well I work at OCR Aviation - the company listing the aircraft - and I am the one who shot them. Was surprised seeing this pop up. I'm not going to give you any trouble for it but please be so kind and ask us next time or let us know. That'd be appreciated. Also a direct controller link to the Arrow in your description would be nice. Thank you. 👍
I appreciate it man, I will certainly do just that. In fact, I've already posted the link.
@@MyTimeToFly oh cool. Thank you. Also just so you know trade a plane and those sites technically can't give you permission for image usage. Not trying to be the internet police here, just trying to make you aware of it so that you know for the future in case some other broker finds your video with their pics 😉.
Thank you kindly, I will contact the selling party each and every time in the future prior to posting. Maybe I can even build the relationships where I can help promote some sales!
The Arrow auto gear system parts are not available so they get disconnected. The gear system on the Piper can get expensive power pack overhauls are $1500 not including labor to replace. Hoses have to be replaced about every 8 to 10 years and the gear cylinders can leak usually new 0 rings. Pressure switch $1000. The Mooney gear is pretty simple overhauling the transmission can get pricey. The landing gear donuts need to be changed about $1000 for all three without labor. Never did like the T tail not in the prop wash.
As usually you provide some great insight Nick! I certainly appreciate it. That's a bummer that the auto gear parts aren't available, it seemed like a cool system.
Auto gear systems were ruled dangerous since in an engine out the gear extended and greatly reduced glide causing a fatality.
I owned a 1974 Arrow for 6 years. NEVER had anyroblems with it. NOTHING! It had gap seals and a few other speed mods. I flight planned at 145 kts and was usually spot on. My Arrow had a useful load of almost 1000lbs and the cabin is bigger than a Mooney. For me, the Arrow 2 compares very well w/a Mooney. The T tails were not a good move. In fact a friend had a 231 and cruising at 6,000ft, his speed was an indicated 140kts. Both are nice.
Right on Gary, thanks for the real world report. I wonder what the rationale to move to the T tail.
I checked my logs. My Arrow 2 has a useful load of 1028lbs. I also loved the real throttle quandrant. Not those funny push/pull thinggys. Mooney's are nice, but tight. We put 2 reqular bikes w/ front wheel off, 2 backpacks, a cooler, and 2 adults in mine with the 2 back seats removed many times. Try that in a 20 series mooney. My buddies 231 cruised at same speed as my Arrow below 7k feet. A great personnal airliner for my family. Hope these facts help someone in the future.
I spent a lot of money on a prebuy inspection for that Mooney. It’s been severely neglected by the current owner and needs about $20k just to make it airworthy.
Oh wow, I wouldn’t have guessed that looking at the ad. Sorry that it didn’t work out for you!
Can you elaborate? Examples of things that were neglected?
@@shohayon nose gear pucks were original (from 1981) and literally crumbling apart. Sheared rivets on the gear assist brackets. Fuel leak at pump. Fuel leak at selector. Gear horn INOP. Gear down/locked light INOP. Stall horn INOP. Power flow exhaust hadn’t been removed/inspected in 3 years (required to be done every annual). That’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
@@captbiggems can you recommend a prebuy inspection mechanic in the area (I assume you didn't do the inspection yourself).
@@shohayon it went to LASAR. They are the premier Mooney experts of the world.
Mooney all the way!
Mooney. The wings don't fall off.
Haha, nice!
Is it even a contest?? Mooney any day of the week even on a Sunday fun day.
Nice!!! Thanks for the vote!
I’d pick the Mooney. Everything about it is superior to the Piper except maybe the pucks. I could deal with it.
Agreed, the stiff gear is worth the speed! It's not like we taxi them around all day.
Arrow all the way
Roger that, thanks for watching.
Cant test fly a mooney without a moonry specific cfi recommended. And ins requires 20 hrs in a mooney, 5 hrs in a Arrow generally for retracts.
Piper arrow iii turbo
No doubt that is a more capable bird than this example!
I always loved mooney but I’m worried about parts availability 😢
As am I, but they are great airplanes!
Mooney for me. It's so much faster and even has higher useful load.
Sorry, I am very biased. I am a piper lover. Albeit the mooney is faster but the piper is sexier by far in my opinion. I feel the lines of the mooney are outdated, especially the paint in this one. The mooney had lower time on the engine which would be a factor compared to the piper. Like you said, it comes down to the mission, cost, expenses, and your personal bank account and if your significant other is a supporter. Great topic.
Thanks man, no problem with a little bias. There are clearly pros and cons of both here, I appreciate your input!
How about a Bonanza versus a Comanche
Be more specific, a Comanche 250 vs. what Bonanza?
Mooney based on performance
I like it!
I think the Mooney is the clear winner, not much contest.
Roger that!
Comparing paint and interior of two specific airplanes is of little interest to us. Please focus on performance relative to mission, typical equipment of multiple aircraft at the price point and the distinctions between fixed and variable costs.
It's of little interest to you, and that's okay with me.
Let's see. max range trip takes an hour longer (5 versus 4 hours) and burns 8 more gallons of gas (about $50 these days) and with 70 pounds less baggage. If you really want to do places, the Mooney wins. But, I admit I am biased, as I did this exercise a year ago and bought a Mooney.
I rewatch this just now and have a few observations to make. I believe the Arrow was listed by a broker who has little to gain financially as the selling price of the Arrow does not compare to that of the jets that the company usually brokers. The broker washed and waxed the airplane took some good pictures and slapped what little information they could get about it from its logbooks on the Internet and and let it sit. The used airplane market is on fire and they don’t need to do much work to turn that airplane over.
The Mooney has high compression cylinders, after having my Arrow home for 7 months now and reading the logbooks I too have high compression cylinders bored out giving me a few extra cubic inches and chrome lined cylinders. My plane always beats ForeFlight takeoff ground roll by 300-500 feet. I need to lean for best power in the heat in Ohio. I have all my flight experience in 2 other Arrow II’s and this one is by far the most spirited, it also has 30 cid more engine.
I enjoyed re-watching this after 100 hours of flying my new 50-year-old Arrow.
A fill up today is about $300, back in 1973 when my plane came off the production line, what new airplane toys could be had for $300?
Thank you for the your detailed thoughts. Congrats on your arrow purchase, I'm confident she'll be a great bird for you!
I’ll take the speed and efficiency of the Mooney every time! But I have to say that wasn’t mentioned: the Piper might be more comfortable and roomy.
I've heard a couple of people mention that too. I do like the way the seats look in the Arrow. Our low back seats can get uncomfortable after a longer flight.
@@MyTimeToFly Doug brings up another thing you could add to the "interior" section. Cabin width.
I certainly can do that, although I don’t think it paints the entire picture every time.
Of these two, I would pick the Mooney. However, I would never buy a PA-28 of any kind. The design of the spar structure on PA-28 is terrible. Where the outer wing attach bolts pass through the bottom spar cap is almost perfectly positioned to experience the maximum tensile force applied to the bottom spar cap. The holes for the wing attach bolts only serve to reduce the cross section area of the bottom spar cap and create a huge stress concentration. When these wings fail, they fail at exactly that spot. It's amazing to me that we haven't seen more wings fall off of these airplanes.
Wow! Thanks for the details. That's crazy to think given the number of PA-28's that are flying around. There must be specific maintenance work to inspect / correct this issue?
@@MyTimeToFly Yes, the FAA issued an AD on the PA-28 and PA-32 spar issue in December 2020. I tried to reply to you yesterday with a link, but I guess YT doesn't allow links in comments?
Darn UA-cam! Sometimes they come through and I have to approve them. Thanks for the info.
I’d take the Arrow
Right on
@@MyTimeToFly tough choice though, the Mooney is a sweet plane too
Agreed. Of course, I did chose the Mooney. My choice was made mostly from a cost perspective, but I’ve never regretted it.
@@MyTimeToFly I probably would have chosen it too, had I not learned to fly in an Arrow - they hold a special place in my heart
In 1969 a Mooney ranger cost 15000 dollars minus radios
I would take the Mooney over the arrow because for the same HP (200) the Mooney nets you a higher speed so more bang for the buck. But I love my Bellanca Super Viking though lol 😂
Got 1.5 hrs in a Super Viking two days ago. Felt good. Lots of gas tanks and sumps to poke :)
@@davidferris9392 mines a 95 so it's just the 3 tank system, you must've flown in a pre 73 model with the 5 tanks
Right on, the Super Viking is a darn cool airplane in its own right!
5 Tanks!!! Might as well be a twin at that point.
I hear they are amazing flying airplanes!
It was a pain in slow flight the gear would come out if you did not over ride the systems
Oh I bet. That seems crazy especially as the Arrow was often used as a complex trainer. Too complex I guess.
I prefer the Arrow not T tail lance. I think the T arrow was rare.
The piper
Roger that