JUNKYARD LS NITROUS DISTRIBUTION-IS IT EVEN?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 лют 2020
- DOES IT WORK? DO ALL CYLINDERS GET THE SAME AMOUNT? Nitrous oxide adds big power, but only if it gets to all the cylinders evenly! How well does the nitrous and fuel make it to all 8 cylinders? Can it find a way through the tortuous path of a factory (long-runner) truck intake? We cut a truck intake in half to see for ourselves!
- Авто та транспорт
I can’t believe Richard is thanking us.. he is doing the hard work and research.. I just want to say thanks to him for all the effort.
The you tube revenue wouldn't factor.
Absolutely...thank you Richard!! Awesome stuff!!!
I have directed people to your channel when they get asking about what motor and set up to do when trying to do a budget ls swap. You have been very helpful.
thnx for the help
Could you do the same test on this motor with a tbss intake!
I really like that view of the nitrous jet, notice how the spray pattern swings back an fourth.
We need cylinders 7 & 8 in the test. These are the ones that seem to fail first under boost (lift ring lands/bend rods). I'd guess that those 2 may be running even more lean. This data would be great to see during a manifold shootout.
Agreed
I love that little truck cam
Richard your videos are great! just a matter of your audience finding you...which they will in time. Keep up the great work, and I'll keep watching them!
That's a big difference I didn't know it was like that's crazy that's why the tune matters so dam much !!
Thanks for taken the time out for the video. I know it takes alot....
Another great video. And I stand corrected. Although I still would have liked to seen the variance between say 1 and 7 or 8 as that would have been at extreme opposite ends of the intake.
did you see how the truck intake opens from the common tube to just 1 side(even) of the plenum-it is completely different than the LS6 style
@@richardholdener1727 with that being said - how do you think an LS1/LS6 would react to this test ?
Would love it if you had any insight into the factory car manifolds👍
Yes sir. Definitely weird. I’m sure it was designed that way for reasons beyond my comprehension. Lol
Great video RICHARD 👍.
Love the videos. Great content.thank you for backing up the camera just a little bit so we can see the numbers on the side and the bottom of the graphs
I love the channel!!!! Keep the great info coming!!!
It would be neat to see a test where the individual cylinder fueling is adjusted to make them as close as possible, and see if it’s worth any power. Great video 🤘
This is just excellent education. Thank you for teaching us. :)
Congrats on the views, keep up the great content
I would use EGT or AFR on individual cylinders and fatten up the leaner cylinders a bit on the EFI to group them a bit tighter/on the richer side for safety. No manifold is going to be perfect but if you put the effort in you can tweak the tune to compensate, I'd rather run a bit on the fatter side than burn up a piston/valve/plug/gasket because that cylinder was ~1afr leaner than the rest.
Nice throttle "cable" ! thanks for the vid
Once again a fantastic video
Great test! I run a hemi setup with a TB n2o plate. I run a the active intake and switch to short runner mode for n20 but alway worry about distribution.
That would also be an interesting test even in N/A to see how the AFR changes when it switches runners
Tolerances within the motor as a whole? Valve sealing, ring sealing, ignition timing, duration, volume in heads, chambers, cylinders, compression totals, cam profiles, valve train potentially this is just what it adds up too? In multiple videos it seems on the ls’s there is consistently up to 1 point difference.
What I’m wondering is if it is compensated for would it result in better engine harmonics, bearing stability etc? Would be interesting to see if there is an appreciable vibration that could be seen on monitoring equipment like is used on industrial equipment for motors etc.
INCREDIBLE TECH CONTENT Richard, thank you again!!
Wait, where is the water/methanol distribution video?
Richard... just finished watching this test. 👏🏻👏🏻...Awesome job on this test. I enjoyed it and it surprisingly informative with a surprising outcome. Which manifold have you seen that has the best distribution?
little off topic but can you go into more details on the system you use for the fuel injection on the hemis
what it is how you hook it up wiring programming
So if you flowed the injectors previously I would interested to know the variance between injectors. I doubt it tells the whole story but could certainly be a factor. Thanks for putting up the videos, I'm enjoying them.
I was scrolling through the comments looking for a comment about the injectors :) I'm really curious as to what injectors (age) are in this engine. Cool experiment anyway!
Great stuff
Try exchanging the O2 sensors from cylinders 1 and 4 to see if the recorded A/F changes, which could indicate that one or both sensors are off a little. Do you have same static cylinder pressure? Do you still have the disparity in A/F when you switch to a LS6 or FAST intake?
Knowing now he tried out for American Ninja his hand gestures now look like karate chops to me.
Like some people said it would be nice to see 7 and 8 since they are further away from the nitrous jet
I'd like to know how a 4150 plate on an efi intake looks on the graph. Or even a nozzle setup
I wonder how intake manifold design or runner length effects distribution
Do the dry test in front of the throttle body and put some higher flowing injectors in Richard and then up the dose and find out where the threshold is for me brother ;) do it on a 6.0
I would like to see this same test on the x-ram intake.
Could you use the evap purge valve hole on the truck intake? Thats where i was thinking of putting mine
kudos on another really interesting vid. One question springs to mind watching this: since we know that the exhaust system has an effect on how well the engine makes power, largely because of how well it pulls on the intake pulse during overlap, have you considered running a set of individual exhaust stacks?
I was thinking a set of long zoomies, with individual O2 sensors in them would rule out any potential affect the exhaust system was showing
Yes, it would be down power at the range that you're running this engine at - no doubt about it - but, then you could see exactly what the manifold was bringing to the party. 8 matched injectors, eight identical ports in the heads, 8 identical exhaust stacks... leaves that intake as the only variable left
Unless I'm overlooking something...
Edit: yeah, I did overlook something. Put an 8 channel oscilloscope on the injectors - rule out the electrical variables
great now I have to spend hours researching how well the FAST 102 distributes air to each cylinder? Ur killing me Rich!!!!
You find anything yet? That's what I'm running for a mani
There's a LOT going on, electrically, between all 8 cylinders to try to synchronise 8 ignition and 8 injection events precisely enough to not encroach on the safety margin at higher power levels.
Between all the connections and all the different electronic components there's bound to be some variance. I can see where individual cylinder tuning can be the difference between good power and carnage.
Great test video Richard!.. keep ‘em coming.
I’m wondering if the firing order is one of the reasons for the disparity in afr
For example 3 ends the order and 1 begins it so I’m thinking that injector
3 robs rail pressure the instant before injector 1 fires making no 1 the leaner cylinder coupled with being on the end of the rail whereas the others (2,7 and 8) are not effected that way.
I’ve not used a truck manifold but have run a wet system reliably for many hits @ 150hp on a fast manifold using both ZEX and NOS plate systems with zero issues.
ktmr8 air flow inside the intake is not a steady and smooth. It’s all pulses of air. When the intake valve slams shut the air compresses and bounces back into the plenum. Add in the firing order and it’s mass chaos going on inside the intake. Find Nelson Racing’s video where they take a motor with a ram tunnel, dual quad carb to Steve at Westech. They end up having to mix 8 different sized jets in the carbs to get an even A/F ratio across all cylinders.
Jeez thats more then 10% difference!!
Were the o2 sensors installed at the same lenght on the header?it will change reading if not!
I would like to see the difference in distribution of nitrous or water/meth in a long runner stock style intake vs a single plain carb intake with boost.
I feel that with the long runner stock style intake tthat the air flow from the boost is pushing the nitrous or water meth to the back of the intake then distributing unevenly. I feel that you might have a better more evenly distribution with a single plain intake because airflow is going to push the nitrous/water meth to the floor of the intake and then out to the cylinders.
I am currently building a pump gas street car with a twin turbo 6L using a A/A intercooler and water meth when I really want to push it. I am using a single plain intake with an elbow and throttle body. I am curious if my thinking would be correct. Its in my 71 Split bumper.
Thanks for everything you do.
Any chance you could run a intake manifold test where you search for the best distribution?
Thanks from OZ.
welcome
If your able to reproduce the data with multiple runs, and get repeated/unexpected results, its good practice to swap the position of components to validate the test. For example move your leanest o2 OR fuel injector to the richest position, or just swap them side to side,front to back, or rotate them all some increment of firing order position. If the result follows the component position, you've found the culprit. If the result does not move, you've validated your results. It's helpful with instrumentation to have sensors which maybe measure different things that can back eachother up so you can quickly see if your having a sensor issue. For example, EGT's might be able to do this for you. Real scientific testing is tedious. Congrats on the success of your channel, well earned.
We swapped injectors on two of the cylinders and swapped sensors-same
Keep making ls and hemi videos!!!!
Please test the toyota 1uz 2uz fe thanks for all the information on American engines in all but i think this easy to work on v8s deserves a shot a junkyard power there every where.... Thanks bro keep on posting ima keep on 👍ing
wish I had an adapter to run one
Richard you're awesome. I would like to send you a heavily modified 3rd gen truck intake for testing. How can I do that? Since you have tested damn near every intake on the planet. Or if you want me to send you some pictures showing you what I did and then you can make one. I would be happy to do that too. Thank you
I'm curious, instead of a single 100 shot injector on top use 2 50 shot injectors 1 on top 1 on bottom and see if that changes the volumetric efficiency of the intake manifold oh, it's great stuff congrats on the 20 thousand subscribers, keep up the great work
I don't think it would, cuz of the tube in the truck intake
I was curious because the front view downlink intake pipe showed the spray hanging to the top half during the nitrous and fuel injection, wondering if it would make a difference with more even distribution
It seems like you would want to move the o2s around so the 2 that were not working were in the middle somewhere because it looks to me like it might hit the back wall and 7 and 8 might be richer
@Richard Holdener - I have a few questions for you. You did an episode on Engine Masters where you compared water/methanol to using an intercooler when it came to charge cooling. The end result was that the intercooler was far superior to using just water/methanol when it came to charge cooling. There was little difference between using the water/methanol and not using any charge cooling. There was uneven distribution to all of the cylinders using water/methanol. The conclusion was that the intake was designed to flow only air, not fuel. The air/fuel ratios being what they are in this test shows relatively even fuel distribution and you're using a wet system in this test. Since the intake isn't designed to flow fuel, is the difference between the 2 tests a matter of intake design, the use of nitrous instead of water/methanol, or is it a combination of the two? Would different intakes have a drastic effect on fuel distribution? I am curious because I Procharged my 3.7 Mustang. I am using water/methanol injection to supplement the intercooler and my intake was never designed to flow fuel.
I think The biggest difference is the amount of liquid. In the nitrous test, most of what is being injected is gas (the nitrous). Only a small amount of fuel is being asked to flow through the intake. In the water/meth test, both water and meth are in liquid state, much more of it is being injected. The quantity can't find its way to all the cylinders evenly. There is also something in the design, but looking at the two, I think the Dormam LS6 we ran on the WM testing might be easier for the WM. That's just a theory-based on the cut away of the truck intake.
A 100 shot has never cause a problem with LS intake. A smaller TB size also brings the cylinders closer together. Problems start over a 250 shot.
a smaller tb brings the cylinders closer together?
@@richardholdener1727 yes. People are spraying over 300 and above on the 78mm LS1/6 intakes. On a 102mm fast or MSD people have reported the plugs are uneven bw 200-250 shots. And the plugs are more even on a 90/92mm intakes. I have been trying to read a lot about spraying the LS intakes but it seems the smaller the TB, the better the distribution.
@@richardholdener1727 sorry, i meant AFRs are a tighter grouping with smaller TB sizes.
Should try that test with the Dorman replacement with and without the internal baffle
Another question, what cylinders were the O2 sensors in?
Rich...u da Man...!!
Do you think that gas engines will go to an IQA calibration like modern diesels since the fuel distribution is so uneven?
More power!!!!!! 🤘😎🤘
Very nice. Have you tested any other manifolds to see if a different manifold type is more even? I would think a hi ram would be very consistent
I did a single plane and 5.0L Ford
A wet test for a methanol injection setup and 8 lambdas on a few intakes would be nice ? Boosted of course. The earlier EM test using a thermocouple in each runner wouldnt give as useful info as the lambda test.
Could have trimmed the fuel pulsewidth per cylinder to even out the AFRs per cylinder ?
I’d like to see this same test done at higher nitrous amounts. Most “plate kits” are rated for 300hp, and I want to know is it even at those flow numbers. Great content, I love the info
you don't want to run 300 hp through an LS long-runner manifold, unless you run the nitrous only and add fuel through the injectors
This makes me wonder which air intake manifold keeps the AF ratio cylinder to cylinder the most even
This is really interesting and makes me wonder about different intake shapes. For instance, those of us with old 302 efi engines with the goofy sideways intake and the air has to make a couple weird turns before getting to the heads. I wonder if there would still be an AF split and if so where would it be.
I ran a distribution nitrous test on a 5.0 intake-its not good
@@richardholdener1727 good to know lol crap
Have you ever done a comparison of boost on the same engine with different head combinations? People talk a lot about boost numbers, but restrictive heads will give you more boost than nonrestrictive, so it really means nothing. HP is based on flow - not just boost. It would be neat to compare the same bottom end with stock heads vs ported factory heads vs aftermarket heads vs cnc ported heads, vs platinum heads with 14k gold valves . . .oops. . . Keep all other variables the same such as cam, bottom end, throttlebody and air ducting.
Hey Richard- can you clarify something for the comments? In the graphs here you had sensors 1 through 6, but does that correspond to the cylinders, or was that just the software? Which 2 cylinders data are actually missing from the graphs? Is it cylinders 7 & 8, or was that just the software counting it inputs? Thanks - this'll help in the comment wars. ;)
Great job again Richard thanks a bunch , love your scientific approach , reminds me of of Popular Hot Rodding magazine vids before they started ramming their subscription down our throats for Netflix pricing only your content is better .
HANDS Holdener! 🖐
So many times, it's in my predictive text! lol
Distribution in the truck manifold is affected by inlet/throttle body location. This could be fixed with a single plane carb style intake manifold with fuel injection installed. Equal length less turns. Just a thought 😜
Are the injectors not flowing the same !!
Hey Richard do you think all sensors aint reading the same though?. Is there any calibration gas you can put onto the oxygen sensors to ensure they're reading all the same?
we swapped sensors to different holes-they are spot on
Hmm did you do a compression test and see if the difference in airflow matches with corresponding cylinders? I think it has more to do with how reversion is affecting the intakes ability to guide the air to the required cylinder, as if the reverted air mass as it slows in the plenum creates its own choke point that incoming air has to squeeze by, I started thinking of this more and more after Kaase's video of his finger in the runner, the shear violence until it hit the plenum, but that plenum's volume was absolutely massive and bleed off the momentum quickly, I think in the case of the LS's smallish cross section it has a larger effect.
Yes-lots of reflected pressure waves happening simultaneously
Fuel pump and injectors upgrade would be paramount .
If my memory serves methanol has a greater density than that of gasoline. Water certainly far greater than both. So it would make sense why those liquids didn't distribute as well vs. nitrous + gas. Got a question for ya Rich - would you see any difference or variation in AFR per cylinder based on the type of o2 you are using? Are these off the shelf oem sensors you're using or high refresh / resolution special lab type?
the difference isn't in the sensors for each cylinder-we swapped them-same readings
Ok on a dyno stationary setting ok.. but does g Force from acceleration make it distribute differently? I know guys swear when you’d run a plate on an old lt1 back in the day that the back cylinders would take it and the front 2 would lean out because it was a tunnel ram type intake.
the acceleration G force would have much less effect than the pressure accelerating the initial flow
I have a truck manifold that I figured out how to remove that tube in the middle and exposed all of the intake runner openings . I wonder if it’s any good?
not sure what that would do
How accurate are the O2 sensors? Some of the difference could be in the sensors, I don't think each cylinder needs to be ran with the same sensor, only question, is the car intakes any better?
sensors are accurate and repeatable-we swapped them in others cylinders-same readings-it definitely a difference in the engine
Is there a video about methanol distribution? Also do you think that spaying meth through a PD blower would even meth distribution? Asking because I’m looking to set up meth injection on my mustang with a Whipple supercharger.
the intake design with the PD blower might be better
Is there a link to the methanol test? I'm having a hard time finding it! I'm curious because I'm currently running methanol into my LS3 intake
it was done for Engine Masters TV
Each cylinder will always get the same fuel with a setup like this, but could they be drawing different amounts of air? Different exhaust pulses or something else at play?
They get the same amount of fuel from the injectors (assuming they are balanced), but the extra fuel supplied by the wet fogger can be airflow dependent
No, Thank You brother !
I would like to see a turbo’d destroked LS (6.0 block and pistons with 4.8 crank and rods)
I did a LS3 block with 4.8L crank and 8000 rpm with a hyd roller-then did boost with a different cam
Fogger stock bottom end test coming soon?
Richard, noticing that this manifold has fairly precise length and shape intake runners and it still have cylinder distributions problems and since you have already the O2 sensors setup for this application , what do you think about playing with higher rocker arm ratios and what effects it will have on cylinders distribution, for example installing 1.7 vs 1.6 or even 1.5 ratios, do you think that it will have a significant effect on helping the cylinder distribution problem ? , what about doing a test on a carbureted dual plane manifold on a engine with equally spaced intake runners and an open spacer and see how bad cylinder distribution is present.
rocker ratio does not change cylinder distribution from the intake design
@@richardholdener1727 correct I was seeing it with the wrong perspective, the only way to achieve equal A/F ratios would be with treming each individual injector to open longer or shorter time, I have heard about Nascar camshafts having more duration/lift on the outer cylinders, what would be the reason for that.
@@richardholdener1727 I'm getting my self brain farted now hahahaha, but help me here I appreciated a lot, if you have all injectors opening the same amount of time on all cylinders and you have a lean cylinder meaning that it is sucking more air than the richer one, by using a smaller rocker ratio I will make that cylinder to suck less air keeping the injector the same as it was like the others now that A/F will go more richer as I have less air in it, assuming that the injector discharge when the valve is at certain opening lift on the valve.
Maybe stock fuel rails with crossover!
1 magazine ran a carb on an ls1 injector manifold and it picked up hp!
I wonder ,if you could get perfect afrs on each cylinder, what pe ratio you could actually get away with without detonation...
take a look at the carbs vs computer video where we did individual cylinder tuning
would be sweet if you can do the following tests unless ive missed them
1. original truck intake vs tbss on 706 5.3 heads (lots of debate wether the tbss gains on the earlier 706/862 heads)
2. 706 heads vs 243/799 heads milled .030 (to be closer to cc of the 706 head) on a 5.3
3. 706/862 heads vs 799/243 on a 6.0
I've done two of those. The TBSS is better than the early truck intake-even on a stock 5.3L. The more power the test motor makes, the greater the gains offered by the TBSS over the truck. I tested the 706 vs 799 on both 5.3L and 6.0L. I would run the 706 on the 5.3L and the 799 on the 6.0L,even though the 706 offered better power up to 5000 rpm on the 6.0L. The 706 was better everywhere on the small-bore motor. I have never run milled 799/243 heads against the stock 706 heads-I'm not sure why you would go to the trouble of buying more expensive heads, then spend money to mill them just to reach the power of the heads that come with a 5.3L from the junkyard.
Richard Holdener thanks for the reply and the reason why I said mill the 799/243 head was to run it on the 5.3 to see which would make more power. Since one of the head shoot outs the 706 head made more power everywhere on the smaller bore 5.3, would be interesting to see if the 243 in milled configuration would catch up to the 706 head. Of course cam timing would suffer with milling if you try to run a lot of duration
That was a very interesting video said that to the oxygen sensors weren’t working but I don’t think it would’ve made much of a difference number wise.
Only 2 weren't working
Richard Holdener sorry that’s what I meant sadly two weren’t working but I don’t think I would’ve made much of a difference I worded that wrong sorry
Maybe run bank to bank firing in comparison to sequential to see if there's a difference
Difference in a/f may have been in those old o2 sensors , already said 2 weren't working.
Wish you would have ran 150 or 175. Most guys I know are using the 100 for testing the system.
I'd love to see a Nitrous Outlet or Nitrous express plate test up to 250 on a a LS .
if you add 250-hp jets-it adds 250 hp
@richardholdener1727 I know just wondering if distribution would be better with their plates at higher levels.
Dumb question but can u run nos on a 6.0 ls on a carburetor
YES
What state are u in ?
I've got $5 that says your A/F distribution are those headers.
Please explain
@@cbr1thou The headers look to be nowhere near equal length, so each primary hits a resonance, and scavenges that cylinder, at a different RPM range. Add to that the firing order of a cross-plane V8 and you end up with a lot of funky resonance. Ironically, I think the A/F distribution would be a bunch better with the factory manifolds, as they don't scavenge at all and therefore one can't scavenge better than another at various RPMs.
I understand how reflected waves function on both the intake and exhaust, but you might want to take a look at the adjustable header test.
@@richardholdener1727 Haha, obviously you understand these things, Richard! I expect you know a whole lot more than any of us ever will. I was only explaining to CBR1thou why I guessed what I did.
I did watch your header length test video (watched 'em all, just about) and I was only off by 1.9 ft-lbs in my official guess :-)... You didn't show what happened to AFR, just to the scavenging effect, which is definitely relevant here to some degree. I think the "Boost makes it better" video is also relevant.
What I'm seeing in your AFR distribution tests are different cylinders going rich and lean at different times. The only thing that's truly different from cylinder to cylinder in this engine are the header primary lengths, which will scavenge different cylinders better at different RPMs. Sure there will be some damaging resonance in the intake manifolds (single plane or EFI) but these will only be made worse by uneven exhaust scavenging.
You asked us to guess, after all. That's mine.
I wonder if a set of tractor puller headers would prove my theory. Or zoomies, which will obviously sacrifice the tuning from the collector but should also rule out some of the firing order issues. There are probably a good half dozen videos you could do on equal length vs unequal, why zoomies only work on supercharged engines, etc.
I’m gonna assume the difference with the water/meth is the atomization? I suppose the nitrous helps to atomize the fuel and distribute it evenly
the nitrous is a gas and there is very little fuel supplied with a 100-hp nitrous shot-the water meth kit supplies a lot of water and meth(both liquids)
The different AF ratio's between cylinders is likely a result of the manifold not distributing air/fuel evenly. And that persists regardless if you're spraying or not. Certain cylinders get priority , by inadequate design. The other possibility is the wideband sensors, or the variation inlength of primary tubes on the headers. If you really wanted to find out you could narrow it down with an ITB intake and equal length headers. Then it's down to injectors , spark plugs , or compression.
Does Richard leave his home anymore? How many rooms does he have?
he's heading back down to the dyno
Is your air/ fuel uneven or are the sensors just reading wrong?
we swapped sensors-same readings
what about the controller?
With a manifold like that I'd expect the front 2 cylinders to read the leanest and the back ones the richest.
BTW this is the very best youtube channel for engines and testing.
Which cylinders run lean usually? which run rich? Thanks for these videos, youre doing the lords work 😂.
Not sure I have enough info to say it always does 1 thing
What was the compression
stock
Probably the O2 sensors