Is it morally okay to ship toxic pairings?
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
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What I couldn't say in the video for fear of ad restriction:
1. Harley and the Joker's relationship often involved the Joker assaulting or straight up attempting to murder Harley. Scenes like this were filmed for Suicide Squad, but ultimately cut out of the movie to make the relationship look less unhealthy. I suspect the motive for this was to entice people to ship them so they could reap the monetary benefits. Most of the people who watched Suicide Squad aren't encyclopedias on DC canon, they're just everyday people who found the characters appealing in a movie that (while considered a failure by critics) was INSANELY popular. So I'm not going to fault people for falling prey to a marketing strategy. If you're going to get mad at someone, instead of taking it out on shippers, take it out on Warner Bros. They are fully responsible for the cut they released. They knew what they were doing.
2. Please don't try to replicate a toxic ship in real life. As long as it stays in your imagination, it's okay, but P L E A S E don't seek out an abusive relationship in real life. I don't care how hot they are, I don't care how much money they have, I don't care how well they plow you, it will leave you with PTSD that will take a lifetime or so to resolve. It's not worth it. No one who makes you cry is worth it.
Random (maybe not as random), I know, but I really want to purchase your book. Based off of this video and the instas/tweets of your characters, it sounds really interesting and intriguing. Anyone want to help lead me to the link in which I could read it or buy it online/at the store?
I think I’ll just Google “cry for the devil”
@@fritosoldier9284 ?
You aren’t making sense
How about Bully x play time
I think where I personally draw the line is at the self awareness level of the shipper. For example “I know so and so is a fucking asshole and that’s exactly why I love them and their ship, because I love a good villain” is a lot easier to take than being gaslighted by people who can’t deal with the fact they’re shipping villains/toxic ships, and will try to excuse certain things and reason them away.
Yeah, that's my view as well. Fiction can be a great vehicle to explore dark topics, but you have to be self aware about it. Exploring a toxic pairing is fine, justifying it and calling them a "perfect couple" or something isn't.
Oh totally! How the pairing is actually being presented narratively is especially important.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words
Thank you!
Same I like going like "omg that's gaslighting toxic af ship it"
This has been on my mind for a while. I certainly understand the distaste for pairings that can be considered toxic but some antis take it way too far and harass shippers who like ships they deem to be toxic. It’s really gross behavior to be honest.
And I think you make a good point bringing up how most of these toxic/abusive accusations towards certain ships are just ways for people to feel like they have the moral high ground in shipping wars. In general, there's a lot of nuances on this subject but people tend to want to view it as if it's black and white when it's not.
to add to this, (and repeating what piper said in the video) most of the people harrassing others who ship these toxic ships are also people who ship said characters with someone else.
i myself shipped a ship that was dubbed remotely abusive in the fandom i was in (it really wasnt tho lmao???? like they teased eachother but they didnt like hurt eachother in any way) and i posted some art onto tumblr, and boom. i got a buncha death threats for shipping an abusive ship... and guess what? everyone who threatened me actually shipped the same ship.
i feel like the whole toxicity of the ship was only an excuse to harass others whos opinions differ from yours.
Oh my god one of my favorite youtubers commenting on another one of my favorite youtubers video, and they said endgame was the most ambitious crossover
Sometimes I think that having sense of morality is good when in actuality there's a problem with this. People that thinks they're right when they have no solid reason either proof why a ship should be together or not. I hate this people who thinks they're right without any real proof either facts.
Thinking you're right without thinking the reasons why, why and backing it up with facts, real facts that supports their argument. Actually this made me crack up in real life. 😂
Yeah I have a friend, an artist, who draws a pairing she loves that is considered toxic (keep in mind we are unsure of the dynamic fully rn because the piece of media involving the two has not been published all we can go off of is trailers and theorizing of pretty obvious implied elements of the story) and people have barraged her hate and have called her an abuse apologist. She's been through abuse herself and for people to call her that makes my blood boil. People just love to throw around terms that make their own minds feel safe. The point Piper made about shippers attacking other shippers to feel safe in their own cognitive dissonance speaks to me so much because a lot of the shippers attacking my friend shipped an abusive ship themselves.
Yeah this with the bkdk ship. I'm fine with any ship, as long as it's not illegal lol but those who ship izuku X ochaka usually think they are so superior because they ship a 'canon' ship. Not only that, usually they are those who attack other people's ship. Only reasoning, they are not 'canon', they are straight. Yeha we get that, what about it? Sometimes I think some of them are just closeted homophobed
there's those girls who are like "other people want to be a princess and find their Prince Charming. I want to be Harley Quinn and find my Joker ;)
Lol wtf, just bc they like the fictional pairing doesn't mean they want it for real. Get your head out of your ass
@@chumimiii533 people learn behaviours from media
@@chumimiii533 I- I know. its just stupid lmao damn
@@chumimiii533 actually unironically ive known 7 different adult women who wanted a "joker to their harley" so i disagree
Yeah, the problem is that they don't see what's wrong with the relationship. Their intention is innocent, but it's wrong in the end
People shipping Harley and the Joker while I'm over here shipping the Joker and Batman 😬
I stand
What about Harley and Ivy though?
@@transphobesarestillrampant Harley and ivy, joker and batman
Yeehaw
consider: lego batman and lego joker
as someone with a history of trauma and abuse who often cope ships, i'm glad you tried to take an objective look at these pairings while not vilifying those who do ship them. none of the ships in this video are my cup of tea (mainly bc i haven't had the money to buy Cry for the Devil yet i'm sorry dad-), but a lot of my ships are some shade of Problematic™, and i get so exhausted at antis insisting that the fictional ships i like make me Just As Bad as my abusers. :/
the only qualm i have with "toxic" ships is that fiction can often influence reality, but that can be subverted by being aware of it. so, yeah.
Exactly! I have consumed a lot of media that depicted toxic and/or one-sided relationships and I honestly believe it negativily affected my views of relationships (platonic or otherwise).
Not saying,
"Media is poisoning the kids and GrrrrRRRR! Ban video games and cartoons! AHHH think of the chIlDreN"
No no.
But I think we should be aware that the media can influence the way people act and handle things irl.
Edit: also the normalization of toxic ships also contributes to this
facts
@@trashking471 I totally agree with this.
True, sometimes it feels like these ships almost try to normalise abuse by acting like it's not there/not a big deal
i do agree to some extent. i think it’s case to case. and that things like pedo and blood/incest ships should be were we draw the line. but on most toxic ships i think as long as we are aware of the toxicity and the problems it’s fine to like them
Truly I only have a problem with shipping real life people!
Yeah... it’s really weird.
i once shipped my two female friends and they were like “lmao what a crack ship” jokes on them they ended up dating :3
@@firefly5728 Yeah, but something like that could also ruin a friendship.
@@TotallyNotSkylerVT true, just sharing a funny story :p
I truly agree with you, shipping real people IS problematic. That is the main reason why I avoid the KISS fandom (or any other band fandom.)
Here's the thing I love about fiction. It allows you to explore situations, ideas and scenarios, enjoy them, embrace them, and then return to the real world consequence free without any real people getting hurt.
Example: people who enjoy slasher films don't really want people dismembered or killed. That would be traumatic horrible in real life. but they do get a thrill watching it play out on their TV screens, putting themselves in the shoes of these characters, and then afterwards going about their daily lives knowing full well that the people they watched die horribly were just actors and no real people are dead.
It's the same with fantasies about "bad boys" and "dangerous romance". If you get a thrill out of seeing these scenarios for any reason, by all means. Enjoy yourself. Explore ideas with the knowledge that they are just characters. Not everyone will get it, but everyone has had fantasies built up in their heads that they most certainly would not wish to happen in real life. Like killing your boss. Go forth and make your fan art, write your fan fictions, talk about it with other like minded fans, maybe even discuss roll playing scenarios with your partner in a safe environment and do so with the understanding that they are JUST fantasies.
With that in mind I don't think the question should be "Is it morally okay to ship toxic pairing?"
The questions SHOULD be:
"WHY are you interested in this?"
"Can you understand that this kind of fantasy should NOT be lived out or bleed into aspects of yours or anyone else's reality.
"How can I get others to understand (who know that I am into these kinds of ideas) what I DO/DO NOT want for my real life?"
YES YES AND YES. When we constantly censor and restrict what people in fiction can enjoy we are missing the point
Well said. It annoys me when people automatically assume that I enjoy abuse because I ship two fictional characters. Ship wars are stupid and unnecessary, I really don’t see the point in degrading someone because they like a certain pairing in a video game or show.
Toxic ships is definitely a guilty pleasure for me, I dont want to go too deep in why bc it gets too personal, but Sweeney got it really right with the "what is triggering to you can be a safe space for others".
Anyway, regardeless if you do think ship X thing = way too bad to ship, you still can have the common courtesy to not send people death email and hate or not support people who do.
Well if you know that ship is toxic and triggering, keep it to yourself.
I get it's your comfort but some things should be kept private.
@@trashking471 no- be open about it [at least put cw/tw] find others who like the ships you like to be surrounded on people you can trust n have the same interest, just dont shove your ship down peoples throats n you gucci
@@trashking471 Honestly disagree. People should be allowed to express and write fanfic about their ships with other people who also enjoy it. Long as they understand its wrong in real life, then it's fine
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personally think it's fine to ship whatever as long as you know that it's wrong and don't try to recreate anything in real life. to me it's more important that there is education on what right/wrong in schools because kids are impressionable and may use fiction as their real life examples for a relationship, since that may be all they have. i kind of compare it to porn in the sense that a lot of it is unrealistic and not to be done in real life and shouldn't replace proper education on the topic (also that young people shouldn't be looking at it as an example). so if you any to ship harley and the joker or reylo or whatever people are mad about these days i think it's completely fine as long as you know what a healthy relationship should be and don't try to emulate what you see in fiction. heck a ship that i really like involves someone who tried to get the other person thrown off a balcony when he was drunk, and that sure is hell is not what i'm looking for in a relationship
I completely agree with this.
I agree with you. I don't care who people ship, even if it's not my cup of tea. What people ship is none of my business so I don't see the point of me butting in on them. You do you. As long as you don't actually seek a toxic relationship and anything that's harmful and heinous in real life, I don't care.
Exactly this. I personally have a thing for villains and redemption arcs for them. I know realistically, a relationship shouldn’t be expected to “fix” someone. But, I do like stories with happy endings where forgiveness, redemption, and change are possible, a bad relationship turning into a good one, etc etc. I know it’s sappy and usually unrealistic, but I do find a little hope in the idea of people growing and changing for the better. Gives me a little hope and warmth in my heart.
Realistically though, I know that you should never try to change someone in a relationship, nor expect them to change. A person can change and be redeemed irl, but that’s up to them making the efforts to grow, not anyone else. Even then, not everyone will forgive this said person, and no one should judge if someone chooses to forgive or not. And forgiveness and healing looks different for everyone. You don’t have to be in contact with someone to forgive them or be their friend for example, nor does it mean that you approve of what they’ve done.
Tdlr: Villains and redemption arcs can be uplifting emotionally, but remember that fiction can glaze over the nuances of reality sometimes and to have realistic expectations when it comes to real people and relationships.
I think that if I see most fictional toxic relationships irl I'd be terrified and worried, but this is fiction. Not real.
The point of fiction is that it is escapism from reality, to explore certain dynamics and ideas without wanting it to be real. Like how people play video games where they murder people without wanting to murder people in real life. so I think when we place super heavy limitations and restrictions of what people can and can’t enjoy in fiction, we’re... kind of missing the point. That’s just my view though
🔥love this comment!!
@@inutrasha4027 thanks 🙃
I study classical civilization and I can assure you that as far as I know, the story of Hades and Persephone is definitely not ✨wholesome✨, the myth is from ancient Greece and in those time women were very much seen as just vessels for children, goddesses were given a bit more respect but Persephone wasn't a "major goddess" so uh, yeah. Also, the hymn to Demeter (the "original" myth, as far as I know) is basically a poem about Demeter's struggle as her daughter was taken against their will but was basically told to get over it because Hades would be a good traditional Greek husband and treat her "well" and that Persephone *has* to get married eventually anyway. If the myth was originally from ancient Rome, I would've maybe believed that it would try to create a "wholesome" relationship but Greece wouldn't have let that fly, cuz in their opinion women are only allowed to be seen as objects. Idk why I rambled so much,, yeah.
Okay is no one going to talk about how their hiccup sounds like a squeaky toy?
1:30
I’d say, I can’t get behind shipping toxic relationships cause the toxicity is just ah for me but this definitely gave me a new perspective on people who do ship them. I do very much like seeing toxic relationships in media though (when it’s acknowledged that that’s what they are and not just glazed over) I think they are very interesting to watch and analyze and they are more realistic. It’s very rare that everything is always fine in a relationship. I like it when relationships have bumps, people mess up, the characters grow and change together or maybe they fall apart propelling their growth to be better. Of course that can still happen in a healthy relationship as well. I just, I LIKE SEEING CHARACTERS ACT LIKE PEOPLE DAMMIT.
It's like those people on Tumblr who make Yandere stories. Obviously we know it's fiction, but some people send these guys hate being all like "yOu SuPpOrT tOxIc BeHaViOr". Like chill, what's the point of making *fiction* if you're just gonna be hated on it for it?
For the Hades and Persephone thing what I think is happening is basically of the major gods that one of the healthiest parrings. ie they don’t cheat constantly and do supper shitty things to each other and there where no bulls involved. Or at lest that’s my theory is with most of the other gods you have to deal with at minimum near constant infidelity if your translating it to modern time and with Zeus you can’t even make it a open marriage. But the times either Hades or Persephone took another partner and not well know and have not romantic versions. Essentially they have goth and flower girl ascetics and and the easiest to make not problematic and built in outside conflict. Oh also there tend to be regional sub varieties for myths so a version not having kidnapping isn’t super unlikely. I mean there’s a version of the Trojan war where Helen chills in Egypt for the rest of her life instead.
I think Piper encountered that one tumblr post that spoke of a "pre patriarchal version of the myth", which really was just a fanfic of a mother that wanted to get her daughter into Greek mythology. Another thing we need to keep in mind is something Piper already said: these new versions are told through a modern eye, so what was acceptable back then (the kidnapping) isn't acceptable today, so they modify ut to make it work. One of the reblogs contained really interesting info regarding the culture and traditions at the time, but yeah mostly they were considered wholesome bc they were pretty decent to each other.
@@smoothieice6930 ok so that’s what it was I’m not really on Tubler cuz the format is cursed. But that checks out all things considered I mean tumblr literally made a goddess.
i get your point but im pretty sure Persephone is hades niece 💀 among the other things ofc in like kidnapping and deceiving her with the pommegranent
@@parasuicidaldaughter yep if your doing Greek mythology it’s best to ignore bloom relations or you are going to have a terrible time
@@parasuicidaldaughter They’re gods and it was written before people knew incest had downsides. I mean, Athena was born when Zeus literally vored Metis (Athena’s mother) and Zeus had his head split open with an axe. She then jumped out of the axe wound fully armored and ready for battle.
I've read the myth of Persephone and Hades, he flippin popped up out of the ground in the middle of a storm, snatched her away, and dove back into the Underworld. I dunno how that ain't kidnapping but oH WELL- Also I saw a YT video where this person was complaining about the age difference of Persephone and Hades- IT'S A MYTH, PERSON, CALM YOURSELF.
Okay, I only complain about their ages when I’m thinking about Lore Olympus because that comic basically romanticizes pedo shit and it’s mad uncomfy-
@@jayce5551 I'm sorry but how does Lore Olympus romanticize pedo shit? Persephone is 20 years old
@@tattoocutiegal7629 When I read the comic awhile back, it went hard on making sure you knew about the age gap between Hades and Persephone. I don’t really care to argue about this, it’s just my personal opinion that it romanticizes it. If you like the comic, enjoy what you like!
There is a power dynamic in Lore Olympus that makes the ship a bit problematic. Sure, Persephone is 20, but the age gap between the pair is still HUGE. And Hades becoming her boss later on just adds to this dynamic. I can see why the ship is problematic.
As for the myth, in most versions Hades kidnapped Persephone, but at the time bride kidnapping was a common practice, and they make healthy and stable relationship compared to most pairings in the mythology
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I feel like the ships you shouldn't ship are ones that involves a child and an adult. Or underage x of age... I see those types of ships everywhere, and it honestly disgusts me...
Bruh it's fiction. Why should people be restrained to an age demographic when they aren't real.
@@trialerrorsharer9398 It sets a bad precedent. In my Wattpad days I saw a lot of young girls reading teacher x student things and not understanding that it wasn't healthy, then thinking that it was interesting or appealing.
@@harperhale-gibson1102 then that's the kid's problem. They shouldn't be exposed to that content if it's gonna affect them like that. Their parents should monitor the content they see. There's no point in censorship, though, because there's nothing wrong with those kinds of fiction.
@@trialerrorsharer9398 I mean, if you want a red target on your forehead that says "I'm a pedo and I like seeing 6 year old girls dating a 40 year old man" then go ahead. I'm just saying it's disgusting to me and I don't want to see lewded young girls in fandoms I'm in.
@@trialerrorsharer9398
Because it's literally normalizing maps and pedophiles, wtf.
The only problem I see with shipping things in fiction is when it leads to real life, and often times when we do this in fiction it's impossible to control the effects it can have to real people and their lives. Or when there is no general adknowlajgement of the toxicity between them.
Psychologist in training here to give you guys a simple answer; this topic isn't black and white.
The people who claim that shipping toxic things means it will influence you, in reality, are wrong.
Also, the opposing people who go - 'ship anything you want!' also have a few flaws too. It completely comes down' to the stability of one's mental psyche and how they process information, their desensitization to fictional content and morales. Your brain isn't hardwired to just go *'ooga booga fictional content makes you normalise it IRL',* that's... not how the brain copulates information, at all.
People who cannot distinguish; 'fiction =/ reality' actually have proven to, and commonly can have real mental conditions linked to fictional worlds and imagination processing. Treat fiction like a sandbox of limitless exploration and don't let anyone restrict your creative freedom.
People's lack thereof understanding the plane of differing worlds between the two; is not your responsibility with what you ship, create or write online. As long as you know the difference between fiction and reality, anything is fair game. Just as long as you don't commit any crimes in the process. Writing, creating or shipping something problematic doesn't mean you're going to become an abuser or become involved in a toxic relationship in your late life. For example.
This is an argument I've seen people use online, it's asinine to me.
I have a lot of issues with toxic ships. Growing up ignoring the abuse can lead to that person then learning to accept abuse in the future from their partner, or winding up being the abuser because of the romantization.
Its okay to be entertained by abusive relationships because thats why they exist, too entertain. BUT, they're usually also there to teach us what NOT to deal with, and romanticizing it all just shows a lot of ppl in similar situations irl that what they're doing is okay?
I also have trauma from some guy who is obsessed with the joker who saw my emo ass wearing half red half black jeans ONCE and was immediately obsessed and whatever
i was legit so scared to find out your point but i’m very relieved you actually understand basic human decency as to agree that antis are literally contradicting themselves saying we shouldn’t ship pixels together because they’re toxic and then harassing real people over it. seriously i’m constantly confused by this mentality
Thank you. Fiction is amazing because you can explore situations that are unethical in real life. As long as the romantizing stays in fiction and we seriously teach kids that fiction does not depict real life then its fine.
Instead of censorship seriously take the time to teach kids how to depersonalize fictional stories. People are only freaking out because they are forgetting to do that for themselves.
I agree with this!
I feel like fiction affects reality sometimes
@@imgone1360 Its the reverse. Reality affects our fiction.
Eh, toxic relationships should never be romanticized. Why? Because fiction effects reality. If you disagree with me, the movie Jaws is fictional but it made a LOT of people think that sharks were evil and they should be hunted, when its obviously false because sharks are not evil. Long story short, fiction DOES effect reality.
As for your second paragraph, SOME PEOPLE LEGITIMATELY CAN'T TELL FICTION FROM REALITY!
I saw the thumbnail and was like “omg someone else knows piper’s book” then I realized it was one of piper’s videos.I laughed for a good few minutes 😂 sad some random person on yt doesn’t know your book but the whole experience was funny
I agree 100% honestly. I come across so many posts of people online saying how they "can't trust you if you ship Harley and Joker." And I think they should all hear what you have to say bc it really is stupid to judge someone like that just because of them shipping fictional characters.
Personally, I don't like people who ship toxic ships cause they seem to not care that characters are harmed.
I saw one person who shipped something where it wasn't supposed to be shipped. One character r@ped, and beat up the other. They didn't care that that happened and thought it was cute to ship them. They saw what happened as just normal relationship stuff. It was scary.
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@@kokonut9142 woohoo 🎉
I agree with everything except your statement "a movie isn't going to traumatize you."
I still fucking remember the nightmare about the Goonies. It was traumatizing as fuck and now I can't watch it or even hear about it without a side of anxiety kicking my ass. It's been over 8 years since it happened. It's still so clear in my mind. >.>
Anyway, great video! It really hits all the big points and is something that I've been thinking about recently too. My favorite was when you commented on the "it doesn't cause this, it's just people who do or like this seek out this thing." A great counterpoint, and one you can easily back with some simple psychological explanations. I 100% agree with your opinion here, and I'm glad you addressed it. Remember to take care of yourself!
Also, do you have any college tips? Just in general? I might be starting next month, and I want to be prepared. You seem to have a very similar viewpoint and analysis ability as I do, and it's great since I can easily follow along. Just wondering. Thank you for the great video Piper
I agree with this video. This whole argument seems like "video games cause violence" all over again. It doesn't make sense to me.
P.S. as someone who researched a lot of greek mythology, there are several different versions of the Hades/Persephone myth. In some, Persephone willingly eats the pomegranate and in others she's tricked. It depends on the source.
*I barley ship any fictional healthy relationship*
Also-
No, I don't support any kind of abuse.
Almost shit myself when I saw my comment on your twitter. Okay but seriously, I'm honestly ashamed that I'm an author and never realized that tweet was showing toxicity. Other tweets and things on Arete’s Insta tipped me off. But I love to see my favorite Author take note of this! As someone who went through this stuff (never romantic because...aro)and I feel disgusted by people who ship this. Not people who don't look at the abuse, but people who know it's there and still ship it. Love the art and appreciate your take!
I personally don't agree with toxic ships, but can tolerate them depending on how they're written (ex. the narrator is unreliable/there are other aspects of the source material/fanfiction that point out how the ship is not okay). Going off of what you said about people seeking toxic material in order to harm themselves/romanticize said material, when I was in my early teens I was exposed to a lot of media with toxic elements to it which resulted in me normalizing toxic traits in people, myself and my relationships with others. This lead to a lot of very negative and abusive interactions with others that I thought were completely normal before finally being able to pull myself away from those people and habits. I'm recovering from that mentality and still find myself slipping and not being capable of (fully) realizing that something is wrong, especially media. So again, personally, toxic ships are not my thing and I try to avoid supporting toxic ships if I see the red flags.
I’ve been waiting for this one...TURN IT UP😎😎
Hey Kiri, how's bakugo
@@willowdrew1999 He’s um fine...he’s just being unmanly-
speaking on persephone and hades - the issue with pinning one mythology down as the correct one is dicey at best because we're relying on scraps of written records about stories passed on orally. most of what we know is a handful of people's written accounts, and the wider known beliefs in greek mythology are wildly conflicting.
take the story of medusa - that story and its interpretation changed depending on the gender of the person telling it and we have written history to document this. male writers always said the snakes and the eyes were an unjust cursed place upon her, but women often interpreted these a blessing so no man could hurt her again. even the reason she was made into a gorgon changes - some writers said she willingly hooked up with poseidon, some say he assaulted her.
and because the mythology itself is often conflicting, you can't quite call one fanfiction of the other, since basically greek myth is chalk full to the brim with au's within its own system. there are accounts where she went willingly, some say she didn't. some say she ate the pomegranate on purpose, others say she was tricked. and folklorists have a hard enough time piecing together pieces of the same myth.
What's your opinion on people denying that certain ships are even toxic though? Like, refusing to acknowledge that the relationship is abusive towards one or both parties? I feel like, ship pretty much whatever and whoever you want (excluding anything involving children), but you should be able to recognize that the pairing isn't healthy or ideal.
Not everyone relationship is ideal or healthy. I'm just saying not everyone thinks that its not toxic but people have different opinions of toxic.
Literally ship anything you want, they're not real people.
i only have a problem with you saying "excluding anything involving chidren" and "whoever you want" since you did not specify wether those people were real or not. the thing is, dont ship real people, minor or not, but youre allowed to ship whatever fictional characters (minor or not) since theyre not real.
@@uliou This
For me for an example I don't ship yoonbum nor sangwo cause you know how sangwo minpulate yoon to do his biding and having him aid in murders and so on (btw don't spoil the ending or any other thing cause haven finished is) honestly I don't ideal it nor it's right it's wrong another is other ships that are toxic I do not support in my opinion, another tbh there are hero's who are broken like the villains but they don't knowlage that, for me like I ship on straight person and another gay, I ship masika and Eran cause one she not as emotional but she does have passion another is he powerfully passionate with wanting to kill the Titans but also he broken cause his lose of a love one and going through some form of depression and reason ship the two cause it's more like healthy standards then shipping one person who may not have compadable ways if you get what I mean again this is my opinion respect it pls, you can agree or disagree.
I think people forgot or didn't know about Sangwoo x Yoonbum. It's sad and disgusting that lots of people in the Killing Stalking fandom ship *literal stockholm syndrome* and abuse (I'm excluding the S x Y shippers that don't do that).I know plenty of people in the fandom don't ship any characters,or the toxic ship, but a big ship in a small fandom ends up defining it to outsiders.
Omfg yes this. But I think people ship them most of the time because they're male wich is also disgusting. I bet if Yoonbum was a girl less people would've shipped them. Tbh I'm glad I've never seen those shippers personally.
I was in the KS fandom so I tend to talk about it when I get the opportunity and such, a lot of SangBum shippers actually ship them because it's their way of rewriting the story and giving the two a happy ending. They want both Sangwoo and Yoonbum to get help and atone for their sins against each other. (Although ofc Sangwoo has WAY more to atone for then Yoonbum, you could even say he's irredeemable) They just wanna see what would happen if things didn't go badly, or if Sangwoo learned the errors of his ways at some point and tried to redeem himself. It's not really a romance thing for them, it's more of an exploration of the dynamic and the many routes it has outside of the original story.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it as long as they keep it within the realm of fiction. I kind of think its hypocritical by the way, for people to complain about people shipping “literal stalkhome syndrome” ( it isn’t literal because it ain’t real) when the original source material kind of dose it to begin with to play up the horror aspect of the story, like what do you expect. I mean of course you don’t have to like it on a personal level,but to complain about fans exploring a topic through art and writing within fandom, that was already in killing stalking to beginning and then using it as some sort of moral flex to insinuate that these fans liking a shipping dynamic that’s relegated to a fictional setting between two make believe characters that harms no one, somehow means that they are all inherently bad/disgusting people for liking that ship and that you (and anyone that agrees with you) is somehow automatically morally superior, is frankly kind of dump. Kind of seems like you didn’t watch the video you commented under.🤷🏽♀️
@@mesmerio-0 *Please read this fully* . Although it's fictional, I still think the dynamic of Sangwoo and Yoonbum in Killing Stalking and in the fandom are abusive on several levels. That's why I left the comment on this video *about abusive relationships* . And just because the relationship is fictional, doesn't mean that it's okay. I wasn't talking about the shippers that just want them to be a normal healthy couple, I was talking about the shippers that romanticize the toxic and abuse relationship in KS. I think wanting characters to be happy is fine, but thinking that the relationship in KS is attractive is disgusting to me. I've seen relationships like Sangwoo and Yoonbum's more times in my life than you want to know, so I don't think it's okay to make the dynamic in killing Stalking appealing. And no, I don't think everyone in the fandom ships the toxicity of the relationship. I know because I was part of the fandom for most of the time KS was on-going. However, lost of people outside the fandom think the fandom is full of people romanticizing sangwoo x yoonbum, because of the minority being the loudest. Once again,I was just trying to call out the people who think that relationship is attractive.
@@hellgates179 READ YOUR REPLY: It depends on what you mean by romanticize? The way your describing it sounds vague. Liking dark aspects of a fictional toxic relationship/ finding it intriguing from a fictional stand point and shipping the fictional character in that context isn’t wrong or immoral as long as the shippers shipping it aren’t saying it’s ok/seeking a relationship like that in real life. Again if you don’t personally like shipping ships that are toxic, or only ship those ships with express intention of creating a headcannon where yoonbum and sagwoo are healthy, more power to you. But people choosing to ship yoonbum and sangwoo as how they are portrayed in the comic (ie. As toxic), doesn’t automatically mean that they glorify abuse or condone it in real life. For instance as person who grew up in a household in one point in my childhood with two parents in a relationship that was toxic, like you, I’ve seen how not ok a toxic relationship can be, and not once in my life have I ever wanted to be in a relationship like that myself, nore have I ever been in one personally. I still ship things that a shipper like you would technically consider, toxic/abusive and bad, sometimes I ship yoonbum and sangwoo that way, because that’s what’s cannon. . . My opinions on IRL toxic relationships still hasn’t changed because I ship those things. I still think abusive relationships in real life are horrible and aberrant. And I’m pretty sure not everyone or even most, who ships sangyoon with the toxicity of the cannon relationship are automatically glorifying abuse because they ship yoonbum and sangwoo that way(I’m basically proof of that). and I don’t think that these specific shippers should be demonized or “called out” for shipping the cannon toxic ship as long as they keep it in the context of fiction, and keep in mind that it would be a horrible relationship in real life. Fiction is a safe place to explore complicated topics/scenarios, that can’t be explored in real life, without real people be hurt.🙂
I have some toxic ships myself but I mostly got them in my teenage years, preferences naturally shaped along with my developing understanding of what is a healthy relationship.
My least favorite ships are *literally shipping victims with their abusers oh my god why is this so common in my fandom.* For example, in said piece of media that shall remain unnamed, there's a girl who pushed a boy off a cliff which paralyzed him, was extremely ableist twords him, later mocked him for his love of fairies by pretty much becoming one, and then *killing* him. What did he ever do to her? Fucking nothing. And guess what? They're shipped together *a lot* and it makes me feel gross. I've already wrote too much but I could go on for days on the topic of this. Abuse isn't cute. Period.
Awesome drawing. I love that we can see the pose you referenced too.
My take personally is that romanticized toxicity is far more enthralling when you haven't actually experienced an abusive relationship. I used to LOVE yandere RussiaxOC Hetalia fics and abusive bad boy fanfic in general as a teen until I actually ended up in a toxic relationship myself. The reality is far more painful and far less sexy. I much prefer wholesome portrayals now; getting an intimate view of abuse in fiction can feel uncomfortable or even upsetting to me at times because of my own trauma.
(...though, I'll admit on occasion I still feel drawn to arguably problematic pairings...I'm one of the weirdos that likes Ganon/Zelda)
That being said, I like to live and let live. I prefer Ivy x Harley but w/e, life is meaningless and the sun is going to explode one day, do what you want.
Really nice video about ships! I especially like how you go into the whole "fictional" aspects of everything in ships. Personally if I'm uncomfortable with a certain ship, I usually just block the tag or the person and move on. There are many ships I'm personally uncomfortable with (a lot of them being irl bandcest/band shipping ie BTS, 1D, MCR ship fics) but I wouldn't go as far as to send threats or constantly sub tweet an individual for shipping something I disagree with.
I think it was a Folding Ideas video about 50 Shades that introduced me to this concept of "ok, you like some morally weird shit, so if you need to experience it, it's better to do so in media than in real life" and my mind has been blown ever since. I'm really glad you talked about this. Great video!
.....yes because it's fiction. These 12 year olds who say they want a daddy hopefully will grow out of it but don't judge us with sense.
Every Mikan x Junko stan watching this: 🗿
Honestly my guilty pleasure toxic ship is hannibal and will, I can't help it man, just everything about the show and it's writing and how their relationship is so incredibly complex it's just hard not to love. And yes, it being gay helps, shut up I'm desperate.
Fanfiction is my favorite depiction of their relationship, not only because their relationship goes beyond heavy gay coding, but it can explore them in a different light, a world in which their relationship isn't so toxic, it confronts the flaws of it and can bring out the potential beauty of their dynamic. But I don't have to justify it, because they're not real and I'm not gonna be seeking out a cannibalistic sadist to have a kill, be killed, or fuck relationship with!
Basically, 100% agree with you, and I just want to ship my murder husbands in peace.
As a Jarley shipper, I love their dynamic. Harley isn't a good person; before or after being with the Joker. She chooses to be with him and I truly believe he cares about her in some fucked up way. It's been shown through different incarnations that he cares about her and sometimes can't function without her. They're dedicated to each other and are obsessed in an unhealthy, fucked up way. I don't condone the abuse that goes on in the comics- abuse that both parties participate in- but their sweet moments I personally love. They're both terrible people who do terrible things but always come back to each other and it's almost fascinating. Someone who would do anything for you and no matter how fucked up things get, they always come back together. I definitely know it's fucked up and unhealthy and I wouldn't want it in my personal life, but I love to see Joker x Harley's relationship and I wish their relationship could be fleshed out more, not just constant abuse cause I personally don't believe that's all there is to them. Lol sorry for rambling LMAO
_I’m in the Toilet Bound Hanako Kun fandom and i have seen people shipping Hanako with Tsukasa which made me uncomfortable and disgusted because not only is their relationship toxic but they are brothers. Hanako killed Tsukasa while Tsukasa seems to have a unhealthy obsession with him if you look at the small interview with him where he only answers with ‘Amane’. There is a theory of Tsukasa treating Hanako terribly when they were both alive but we don’t know if it really did happened but Hanako did killed Tsukasa for a reason, he did regretted it but it doesn’t change for the fact that their relationship is toxic_
Putting aside the fact that they are brothers (though I don’t see how anyone could), it is heavily implied that Tsukasa may have physically or even sexually abused Hanako while they were alive, based on the intro scene (you know the one) and Tsukasa’s behavior toward Hanako during their interactions. While this is morally wrong, I’m not going to berate someone if they ship it until I hear the full story.
Tbh im fine with toxic relationships unless its incest or pedophilia. Those 2 gross me out alot and i have no idea how can anyone ship a child with an adult-
Honestly my opinion is and will always be is that if a ship is fictional then I genuinely don't care how toxic or messed up it is morally, people can ship whatever they want as long as it's about fictional characters and that they understand that these kind of things aren't okay irl. The idea that what someone ships is indicative of their morals and beliefs is so strange to me? Like I'm a very problematic shipper, I love toxic ships, Hitachiincest was like my childhood OTP and still is, and you'd have to pry Akuroku, Sefikura, and Aeriseph from my cold dead hands. But that doesn't mean I think these kind of relationships are okay or acceptable in real life. I'm not out here looking for a manipulative or abusive partner, nor am I interested in hooking up with someone I'm related to.
Tbh I think people who argue that are either projecting and deflecting themselves, or it's all just a ship war that people are using social justice language to make seem more credible and to make their side/ship seem more morally correct therefore better.
Honestly the only thing most of my ships could be indicative of is that I live for the enemies to lovers trope and that I love older men and women, that's literally it 🤷♀️
@@FatherIimaginedyoutaller Get a genuine argument, I'm pretty sure a therapist wouldn't see you because of cartoon characters. Unless of course you're someone who believes they're real and are probably suffering delusions from a disorder, if that's the case then I think it'd be in *your* best interest to see one.
wait I think I hear something..... I think it’s period 💁🏽♀️
Same, I've had abusive and less than moral ships since childhood and can attest that my level of distaste for hearing about the real stuff never changed.
The thing I hate about shipping discourse is the fundamental misunderstandings that color every argument. Each side doesn’t really understand what the other is saying and only addresses strawman image they have of the other side.
People who are “pro-ship” generally think of themselves as simply anti-censorship and anti-harassment; they believe fiction is a safe space to explore topics and character dynamics that aren’t acceptable in real life. They believe in putting real people’s safety before the safety of fictional characters. They don’t see shipping as exclusively about thinking two characters /should/ be together; instead they see it as putting characters together to make interesting stories. They see “antis” just as those who send death threats to real people over fictional characters. They think “antis” can’t distinguish fiction from reality.
“Antis” focus on the moral implications of making content surrounding problematic pairings or situations. They see the creators of this content as supporting the situations portrayed because the act of posting such content furthers it’s reach in fandom. They worry about the impressional minds that may see this content and internalize it; they worry about how it may be used maliciously by predators. They don’t see fiction, at least fiction posted online for others to see, as a healthy way to process trauma. They generally see shipping as an endorsement of a pairing as a healthy couple. They don’t think one’s experience online is solely their own responsibility (or the responsibility of their parents). They believe everyone has a responsibility to make the internet a safer place for kids. They see “pro-shippers” as selfish and having no regard for their effect of the community at best, and predatory at worst.
And both sides feel vindicated in arguments because they’re not actually considering what the other side has to say because it’s said so aggressively. It’s taken a long time for me to start to understand where “antis” are coming from because often I’ve just been accused of being a pedophile and threatened with doxxing. I couldn’t really take them seriously when they weren’t even listening to what I had to say. I can imagine many “antis” have had similar experiences.
In the end, I still believe that who someone ships isn’t an indication of someone’s actually morality or how they would handle seeing a toxic relationship in real life. But I understand the concern others have; I know for a fact my view on relationships has been warped by the fiction I consumed as a kid- I just don’t think that’s a reason to censor the people who produced that content.
shipping discourse drains all the joy from fandom experience and both sides are at fault here.
The way I see it, as long as you're not shipping pedophilla or incest I don't see any problem with shipping whatever. From what I can tell a lot of people (including myself) use shipping as a source of comfort and to tell someone that they're wrong for it is rude in my opinion. Good video btw!
I- gosh you have no idea how much I needed this video. I am a passionate shipper of a couple who is less than healthy, often regarded as one of the toxiest ships in movie fiction. It has taken a toll in my self image and self love shipping it, and it comes in periods of time and currently I am in the worst interval yet. This video helped me a lot, it just told me that someone outside of my social circle would agree. I really can't express how much you've helped in just 20 minutes... thank you
I haven’t even watched the video yet but IMO it’s okay to ship toxic pairs as long as you don’t romanticize it and recognize it’s not something that would be okay in real life nor healthy in any way.
im sorry for bringing everyone down but yesterday i lost my dog and i can't seem to get over it. she was the most precious thing in my life and i still love her so much. i want to cry, but i really don't want to be sad anymore because i have to be stable for my family. is there anything that i can do to stop the pain? sorry again for making this but i need a way to get my feelings out and this is the best thing
I've gone through the same thing, and it's so painful. People will try to tell you it's "just" a pet, but pets are very much an important part of your life, and there's a lot of unconditional love involved. Pets are special. So don't let anyone trivialize it. Someone said "Don't cry that it's over, smile that it happened." It's always good to remember the happy memories, because in a way, time is an illusion anyway, and remembering them in the present keeps them alive.
I hope that helps.
I freaking love A Tale of Two Rulers! I have a habit of falling in love with the dashing or hunky, potentially misunderstood antagonist. However, I understand I have a somewhat unhealthy attachment style and subconsciously seek out powerful love interests.
No one can control who ppl wanna ship and plus all characters are fictional so who cares anymore, really.
i mostly agree but there are some ships that are toxic and not okay at all: ones that include incest and pedophilia (i can't spell sorry). I'm in fnaf fandom and ships with springtrap (the dead killer) and circus baby (his dead daughter) are not okay to ship at all imho
Codependent people seek out codependent relationships in media.
Wow I did not need that call out today
writing a toxic relationship between two characters is okay!! as long as you don't condone abusive relationships.
people have abusive relationships, they exist. people romanticizing this uncomfortable and disgusting relationships is what i find odd.... i myself am writing a book, and the main character is in a toxic and abusive relationship with another character (whos also his step-brother but.... yeah we ignore that.) and its not like i think its cute or hot that theyre in something gross like this.
if you think that its hot or cute that one of the characters abuses another (verbally or otherwise) than i disagree with it. if you like the dynamic of these characters, try finding another dynamic like theirs!!! literally just post on tumblr "hey i like the dynamic of (abusive ship) but its fairly toxic... anyone have any suggestions for similar and not abusive dynamics?" and i bet you people will come and give you suggestions!!
also- we have fannon versions of some ships. people spinning ships because of their own headcannons, maybe even an au where a character isnt abusive (like you mentioned :>) and like... i dunno, it feels kinda odd to me.
BUT YKNOW WHAT!!!!!!! as long as you dont romanticize the gross parts of their relationships , im totally fine with it!!! like i won't complain to you or anything, just because youre not hurting anyone.
i dunno, thats enough rambling for today. gimme some opinions in the replies, i guess.
They're not real so who cares... I think the toxicity of the relationship is hot 😏
Mitch, Umm wtf? You know rape falls into that category and Pedophile, so you find that hot? People concern me sometimes..
@Acorn im aware ships are fictional lmaoo (dude i myself am an abid shipper) ... im saying either way, if you think that abuse of any kind is hot/cute/whatever, thats kinda odd, ngl
@@chumimiii533 the "theyre not real" excuse is kinda gross. im aware they are fictional characters, but the fact you think toxicity (most likely abuse) in relationships is hot says more about you than it does about anyone else
i agree with this.
wait wait wait.... PEOPLE SHIP ZELDA AND GANON?????
SAME I JUST FOUND OUT???
I mean I'm pretty sure there are people that ship Link and Ganon so Zelda wasn't too much of a reach
So I ship Bakudeku :) and I know a lot of people get very upset with it! The reason I like it is because of Bakugo's improvement as the story goes along. Their relationship in the beginning is awful but they still clearly have some sort of care for eachother. Deku admires Bakugou, Bakugou, after a while, starts pushing Deku to be better in his own strange way. I've been in rough relationships myself, so I understand people who hate this ship, I just personally enjoy the idea of a bad relationship becoming better as time goes by. I guess you could say it's a comfort ship for me :,) but yeah, that's why I think most people ship bakudeku
I usually like fucked up ships because I like seeing bad/toxic people work out. For instance, in the proper media, I would likely hate many of the pairings I like. In things like fanfiction for example, there are many ways where certain people can be changed or the story can change to make the pairing or person okay aha
i dont agree with the phrase "few people shipped harley and joker until he got hot" like trust me a lot of people shipped them since harley's first appearance in the tv show
Now I don’t really have much knowledge on actual myths (I know all the versions you mentioned I just haven’t studied them in depth) with Hades and Persephone. But as a witch who also learns from other witches, that work directly with Hades and Persephone I think there can be an argument made that their relationship is different than how it was actually portrayed in myths. I even read a personal blog or something where someone who worked with Persephone found that a lot of people like to victimize her when she is in fact a much stronger goddess than she is normally perceived to be. However this is all just scattered research I’ve done, so take it with a grain of salt, loved the video! I too deeply analyze everything, often to my own detriment lmao.
Killing stalking,enough said. I low key love how chaotic the fandom is
Seriously,Sangwoo X Yoonbum is toxic and I hate how half of the fandom ships it
This whole video i feel like also works with the recent pro/anti ship controversy with those who allow illegal ships like p3do, inc3st and sa, and those who don’t it goes hand in hand with your points
20:41 your laugh gives me pure serotonin
being in a codependent relationship is so SO volatile. the abuse makes the love feel more special since they’re not always loving
in the myth it probably was toxic, but cannonically hades didnt kidnap her, persephonie was just stupid and ate pomegranite seeds and the pre established rule was that you eat the pom you get stuck down under but hades was like "eeeh you're mom would get really fucking sad and ruin the entire planet if I forced that so I'll just have you for a month for each seed you ate."
I think its the same idea as liking a character that is toxic you can like them while still not justifying the abuse that is happening
Late to the party but my opinion has always been shipping's about the story you can get out of these characters being together, whether it be your standard romcom meet cute or two terrible people destroying each other hand in unlovable hand or anything inside and outside that scale. It's rare I ship a ship bc I think it's cute rather than I think the things it could add to the story and characters in really cool way. If a toxic or problematic ship brings something to your fiction than more power to ya, just be sure to tag your content
"The clock is ticking we're all gonna die someday" well this got dark fast. Wait why does it make me so sad. why am I commenting this
I just feel like people shouldn't normalise these kinds of relationships :/
I’m glad you mentioned a tale of two rulers because I LOVE that comic and it deserves all the attention of the world.
Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are very toxic, and I think Moonkitti does a great job of summarizing why their relationship is toxic/why it shouldn't be treated like they are both bad.
Woah... haven’t seen those names in a loooong time. Brings back memories lol
I’m so glad that you spoke up about the psychological reasons for these as opposed “it’s bad because it’s bad” Like most people say.
Your hiccups are literally one of the cutest things I have ever heard.
Like maybe top three are like:
1st My puppy doing anything from barking to moaning
2nd My Cat sneezing or purring
3rd you having hiccups
The tail of Persephone and Hades is actually not that toxic and we need to remember that it was Ancient Greece so kiddnapping your future wife was actually not that uncommon plus technically Zeus was the one who told Hades to kiddnap her (and in reality Persephones mom was the toxic one) and together they actually made a good functional relationship
im just saying i absolutely dont trust anyone who ships tavros and vriska from homestuck ;-; everything about their relationship was abusive and i cant imagine why someone can find that cute about them. theres literally nothing to sugar coat it.however i wont harass you for it since i know people have comfort ships and i stand by that
Yeah, like, every time Vriska comes into Tavros' vicinity, I'm like "Nooo, get away from my son :0"
Artemis Moore LITERALLY LIKE,,,, dont get me wrong i love vriska but atleast half of the screentime, development and sympathy she got should've been given to tavros since he was deeply traumatized by it. if only hussie wasnt so fucking lazy and biased against tavros
A very interesting discussion indeed. I have been giving it a lot of thought myself lately and I find that the "problematic" dynamics that bother me the most are the ones that either thematically represent something really, really bad (like shipping a colonizer with a person belonging to the people they colonized) or that are very two or even one dimensional (I'm looking at you Reylo). And even in the first case, when the characters are very well written and layered I find myself more reflective than outright condemning anyone who ships them. I wish I could give you some clear examples of what I'm saying but most of my tastes tend to be a bit niche, and I'd spent most of the comment trying to explain the issues I'm talking about lmao
I just now realized when i developed the insecure attachment style (around 7 my dad came back and then proceeded to cause chaos and then leave and my mom was in college so i had pretty much no one 🥲👍)
my day gets better anytime crow daddy uploads
TW: mention of pædophilia and incest
I agree with nearly everything you said, but I think that even if the characters aren’t real, but some I think it’s important to precise that incest and pædophilia aren’t okay, even if the characters are not real because it normalize those things, and it’s not okay (I love your drawing btw)
i agree incest and pedophilia should be were we draw the line!
Beautiful art again!
-Yuya Sakaki
i think the place where the line absolutely must be drawn is where incest / pedophilic ships are introduced. putting it out in the world that you ship anna and elsa or a child character and an adult character is just too far. if you’re going to ship that as some kind of comfort, you need to keep that to yourself, as that kind of shipping does really seep into fanspaces and spread a certain kind of nastiness. proshippers are scummy. there’s a difference between shipping siblings and pedophilic ships and something like harley and the joker. i think that’s what people need to realize. id much rather encounter a harley and joker shipper than an anna and elsa shipper.
Me seeing the title and thinking about my oc's toxic pairings and the stuff i wrote for them: ...
About Hades and Persephone...it isn’t a abusive relationship. Actually, they loved each other, but Persephones Mother didn’t allow their relationship. That’s why both of them (Hades and Persephone) came up with the kidnapping idea so the mother would allow it. Also, the kidnapping thing was a tradition back in the days in Greece and still is, tho in a more symbolic way.
I’ll link you the book which states all that later on.
Girl this was an entire year ago, wheres the link-
@@ipetturtles265 lmao I totally forgot that I wrote this, and actually it’s a different Mythos. As in, a different version of the Mythos shown in this video, which happens often with Greek mythology because most of the time it was passed on by mouth.
Tbh most of my ships are toxic. I’m just not interested in reading about happy healthy relationships. I think everyone should strive to have a healthy relationship but I don’t want to read about it lol
I just wanted to say you left out the Jarley shippers who do acknowledge the abuse. Like me. The relationship is interesting because it so toxic. The best way to describe it is if you are watching a horror movie or thriller novel.
If you are smart enough to recognize the abuse, stop shipping it.
@@mikusmom Completely miss my point. 🤨
Hell you missed the video points. There's nothing wrong shipping fictional abusive relationship. The problem is idolizing those relationships which I don't. 🙄
So glad to see u uploaded Daddy Piper!
As a saying goes, we always find ourselves tempted to desire the “forbidden”.
Talk about “fatal attraction”! 🤦🏻♀️💔🌹
Persephone really was the first "I can fix him" girl
I came here to have a good time and I honestly feel so attacked right now
Idk if anyone’s talked about this, but fans of mha ship BakuDeku when it’s the most toxic ship ever- Bakugou literally tells Izuku to kill himself multiple times and calls him names when Izuku looks up to him.😔
@VannyDazee He did apologise in one of the newer chapters of the mangas and I still hate him. His character reminds me of my toxic mother who yells at me, ‘apologises, then gets angry at me.
As long it stays strictly inside a fictional environment (just fictional characters, fictional relationships, fictional worlds and admit it is problematic irl and of course don't imitate it), I don't see a problem.