My Rem. o3a3 had 24" 2 groove that was sporterized. The action is smooth and shoots very well. Someone installed Lyman peep sights on it. IMR 4350 topped with the 155 AMAX will do .75-1" @ 100. That was my deer load that never made to the woods yet. Awesome old rifles
Hey Tom, if you don't have a micrometer seating die, you can reliably adjust in small increments by measuring the change in bullet seating depth per 1 revolution of the seating stem, then marking the top of your die for the increment you want. IE: You want to test in 5 thou increments and one rotation = 60 thou, so 12 evenly spaced marks will allow for 5 thou adjustments.
The standard for the chamber has to enable use of the range of bullets that are loaded in the cartridge. Considering one-inch groups, are not that difficult to accomplish. Because the 175-grain bullet performed so well, I would try 180-grain hunting bullets and see what happens. They are one of the most favorite weight 30-06 bullets most often used for a reason. You might find an all copper bullets fits the same length dimensions as a lead bullet. That gives you both the longer length and lighter weight. I would think it might take a little time to find out. Boat tail bullets are no advantage until the range extends past 600-yards of any noticeable importance. However, they are more likely to leave some propellant gases pass in front of the bullet in many cases. Flat base bullets provide a better barrel seal shown in testing.🙂Giving your rifle what it likes is less work, and the deer is not going to know the difference.
The beauty of the 30-06, is how well it shoots heavier bullets, just go with it it bucks wind better and hold over is more consistent. 150 is a 308 projectile to me.
Just discovered your channel, sub'd and enjoying it. I love watching the f class guys videos on reloading then these more traditional down to earth type. It really gives good perspective
Try a 150 grain Hornady Interlock over about 52.0 grains of any 4064 or Varget....will give you between 2800-2950 FPS and the flat base bullet will give you more bearing surface and stabilize faster than the SST....it will also keep you inside expansion velocity well out past 300 yards.
I just happen to have some 150gr Interlocks as well and you're right they do have more bearing surface and I was thinking along those lines but I have a ton of SST's that I got a few years back and I would love to get them to shoot. Besides I'm really curious as to how much adjusting seating depth will affect group size on these? But if they don't shoot I'll be trying the Interlocks soon.
Michael, I was always a heavy for caliber guy also. I used a 303 British a lot early on and all I could ever find were 180gr bullets and they did such a great job that I stuck with the heavy bullets for years and years even with .308 and 30-06. With that said, as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate the higher velocities from the lighter bullets.
I started my reloading journey with my new Bergara 6.5 PRC. I quickly had to forget about being .020 off the lands because my magazine would not except that long of a cartridge. So my maximum magazine length became my seating depth start. 2.98 inches. Saami is 2.955 I’m way off the lands. With that experience with that gun, my 270 win, and my 7mm rem mag all end up doing seating depth a little longer than Saami and then working back. All shoot 1/2 moa w multiple bullets. I no longer worry about the lands. For me, in a hunting rifle, .020 off the lands is a myth that can’t be accomplished with most magazines. If the ammo manufacturers can work around Saami length then we can too.
The only way to know you are truly .020 off the lands is to measure your rifle, not just follow SAMMI. It is also bullet dependant, measured to the ogive, not the COAL.
@@rperry70 I get it. But my magazine will only except 2.98 length and my lands are way longer than that. So unless I want to single load each bullet while I’m hunting, I’m not going to be .020 off the lands. Therefore I must work from 2.98 coal and in usually in .003 increments until I find a length that shoots.
Great presentation, Tom. I enjoy the depth of understanding you have and the way you bring history and experience to the forefront, with your easygoing style...thank you for who you are and for sharing your time with us.
Tom, I agree with you on seating depth. I usually shoot for seating bullets .010 off the lands. The exception are my military rifles. I have alot of experience loading for the 1903 and 1903 A3 Springfield's. I use the protocol and standard set by the military. I use a military cartridge and measure to the ogive to give me my OCL. For target shooting I try to achieve 2600 fps which the military established for optimal accuracy. For hunting I use a flat based bullet usually a Hornady Interlock which has been a great hunting bullet for me. I use a 150 great SP with 59 grs of IMR4831. This a old load from Ken Waters and has worked well in all of my 30-06s. Good luck.
Be interesting to see, just how much seating depth affects the round. There is also some other stuff that interests me, for instance, SAMMI pressures and spec.s vs CIP pressures and specs, Good video and am looking fwd to next week to see what happens..God Bless
Tom, I have been trying to get a "simple" explanation of seating depth on reloading forums and UA-cam. I usually get a thesis that I cannot understand have the thought process and terminology. I am a simple guy and needed a "Simple Living" explanation. You sir, speak in terms I understand. I am working on a Nosler ABLR 168 grain for a 308 Christensen Mesa. It shoots lights out with 150 grain Norma, so I know what the rifle is capable of. I found a very stable load with IMR4895 that provided great SD and ES. My groups were nothing to write home about. I loaded them with Nosler's, and other company's standard recommendation of 2.8" COAL. I got an OAL gauge (waiting on my 308 case to get hear_ to measure chamber length. I am hoping I can test .020" off the lands, but the explanation of how much surface area you need between the bullet and cartridge was a missing piece of my equation. Thank you, sir.
Interesting speculations! I think it totally makes sense too that seating depth in the case WOULD have a greater affect when the bullet is in more extreme positions forward and back in the chamber compared to the standard depth or a more moderate one. When the bullet is all the way up into the chamber's throat, having more case depth seating for the bullet would extend the amount of time that the case would exert a tight hold/friction on the bullet; the highest point of the pressure spike potentially being higher because of it. And when the bullet is much farther back in the chamber's throat with more case depth seating for the bullet, the increased time of the case holding onto the bullet might allow for significantly more pressure from the charge to flow around the bullet and down the barrel AHEAD of the bullet instead of propelling it from behind.
Tom, The ogive profile on the SST bullets is different to reduce drag. Older bullet designs Cary the arc/radius further forward and engage the rifling closer in the 06…especially in a GI rifle which had it’s spec’s established before the secant ogive was employed. The Nosler bullets tend to use a more traditional ogive curve and work better generally than the sst bullet. The older hornady designs like the interlock I believe do as well. Good luck!
Tom, I appreciate your video on this process as this is exactly what I go through with my rifles and reloads. A related question for you: do you find that crimping a canelure or non canelure bullet makes a significant improvement in consistent velocity and accuracy? I hear this touted by LEE and I'd be interested to hear if you've done any practical tests? Thanks and God Bless !
I would be tempted to see what ratio a .300 win mag is in terms of bullet diameter vs seating depth and use that the minimum depth for this exercise. I have heard that the 300 win mag doesn't conform to usual wisdom of seating depth, but still manages good accuracy.
When I started learning / loading for my target 308 it jumped 100 thou. I was sad because I wanted to seem much cooler and smarter than that. I was getting 1/2" groups every weekend at 100 yards and 10" groups at 1K on that periodic range day. I just sucked it up and quit worrying about the jump for that rifle / load. Good times.
Be a little careful with that! Loading a copper bullet too close can cause dangerous pressure spikes. Most people knowledgeable in loading and shooting copper bullets will say no closer than .050”. I load them at .080 to .100” and yes I might sacrifice a little velocities but I’m always able to get sub MOA accuracy. And the velocity I’m giving up is usually around 50 fps. To me it’s not even worth considering, way too dangerous!
I always had the best accuracy in my 300 Win. Mag. using Nosler 165 grain BT bullets. Hornady's were just ok, Nosler was awesome, so I bought a lifetime supply. LOL Nice video.
My pre 64 model 70 in 30-06 is just the opposite. It has quite a short throat. It’s easy to load 150 and 165’s close to the lands with plenty of bullet engagement in the case.
Greetings Tom , I would try something simple and traditional like a sierria 150 gr pro hunter flat base and some h4895 , blc2 , variet , or 4064. Test these at the top end of your load data since you already know that your gun does not exhibit high pressure there you should get some good results . If that doesn't work out go to some 175 or 180 gr bullets with 4350 or rl17 ND try that. Good luck and God bliss!!!
Leon, I'm going to try the length testing first just out of curiosity. I don't look for it to make a huge difference, but I am curious. Then if that doesn't work I'll be trying another powder. The main reason I want to stick with the SST's is just because I have a lot of them on hand that I got several years back and I really don't want to have to buy more bullets right now. Those things are getting pricy and hard to find. I'm seeing more and more but still not the greatest selection out there. And I can't remember the last time I saw a Pro Hunter or a Partition for sale. And I have gotten some great accuracy from the 150 SST's in the past.
My brother and I have had a few rifles that do not like sst bullets. My wife's 6mm is the worst. With rem corlock it will print a 3 shot clover leaf. The sst look like a shotgun pattern than a rifle group.
Tom - I find your videos very interesting, and free of the hype normally found. Please forgive me if you've already addressed it, but I would like to know if your Springfield (made by Remington, probably) has the original GI barrel on it. If so, it's probably a four groove, not a two groove, right? Thanks, and please keep up the good work.
You could try the longest 150 grainer you can find like a pro hunter with a flat bass and a shallow ogive. A round nose would be ideal but I’m sure you’d rather stay with a spitzer. My 1903 (1941) shoots 180 grain Sierra game kings under an inch at .015 off the lands.
You had a chronograph, I'm curious was the MV more consistent for the smaller groups than the larger groups as that might effect accuracy. I do like your videos, well done and informative. thanks.
I don't like doing load development in the winter because I have popped primers with the same load in the summer but that's just me! Great vid! Was you successful this deer season? Did your bullet perform?
Great point Cory, and I'm with you on doing the load development in the summer. I prefer that myself. But I'm not pushing it on pressures since this is an 80 year old rifle. As for the deer, I've only hunted one afternoon with the muzzleloader. It's just been rough this year finding time to hunt and I just haven't been motivated.
I was wondering the same thing. I wanted to see the following video with the results of different seating depths. He said next week, the video is about 4 month old now. I can’t find the follow up video either. 😢
LOL, I didn't mean to scare you away from reloading. It doesn't have to be this complicated but there's just something about human nature that once we start down that road we just have to make this complicated.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I tend to be that way as well. Thats was scares me. Love your videos very helpful to new guys. Glad I saw your video on cleaning JB has been great on the old guns
Could it like a different powder? My old 30-06 load that shot good for me was 150 grain Speer hot core and imr 4064 powder but I’ve also herd that varget with 150 grain bullets are good I have not used varget in the 30-06
When the brass gets sized in the die it puts everything back in place. And then the case stretches when it fires. So the firing does all of the stretching.
I think it just doesn’t like the socialist hornady bullets. I use to be a hornady fan but after their stances and blatantly liking to people about their cartridges I’ve moved on. Speer is a economical working man’s hunting bullet. Also will splurge for some ballistic tips and Sierra game kings.
That pretty much sums up my thoughts right there Kentuckguy. I'm shooting up the Hornady bullets I already have but it's tough for me to make myself buy and more.
If your shooting 1/2 groups with heavy bullets sounds like your hunting with heavy bullets. Remember the rifle chooses what it likes we don't get to.
My Rem. o3a3 had 24" 2 groove that was sporterized. The action is smooth and shoots very well. Someone installed Lyman peep sights on it.
IMR 4350 topped with the 155 AMAX will do .75-1" @ 100. That was my deer load that never made to the woods yet.
Awesome old rifles
Hey Tom, I'm 55 in Utah. I look forward to your posts. You are like a good old friend. Take care....
Hey Tom, if you don't have a micrometer seating die, you can reliably adjust in small increments by measuring the change in bullet seating depth per 1 revolution of the seating stem, then marking the top of your die for the increment you want. IE: You want to test in 5 thou increments and one rotation = 60 thou, so 12 evenly spaced marks will allow for 5 thou adjustments.
I was taught that method by close friend who shot br for long time. Works for me.
The standard for the chamber has to enable use of the range of bullets that are loaded in the cartridge. Considering one-inch groups, are not that difficult to accomplish. Because the 175-grain bullet performed so well, I would try 180-grain hunting bullets and see what happens. They are one of the most favorite weight 30-06 bullets most often used for a reason.
You might find an all copper bullets fits the same length dimensions as a lead bullet. That gives you both the longer length and lighter weight. I would think it might take a little time to find out. Boat tail bullets are no advantage until the range extends past 600-yards of any noticeable importance. However, they are more likely to leave some propellant gases pass in front of the bullet in many cases. Flat base bullets provide a better barrel seal shown in testing.🙂Giving your rifle what it likes is less work, and the deer is not going to know the difference.
The beauty of the 30-06, is how well it shoots heavier bullets, just go with it it bucks wind better and hold over is more consistent.
150 is a 308 projectile to me.
Also flat base stabilize quicker then boat tail bullets. See it on Desert Dog
You're right Edward they do tend stabilize quicker and they tend to be a little more predictable.
Just discovered your channel, sub'd and enjoying it. I love watching the f class guys videos on reloading then these more traditional down to earth type. It really gives good perspective
Try a 150 grain Hornady Interlock over about 52.0 grains of any 4064 or Varget....will give you between 2800-2950 FPS and the flat base bullet will give you more bearing surface and stabilize faster than the SST....it will also keep you inside expansion velocity well out past 300 yards.
I am a heavy for caliber guy. 180s and 4350 in The 30-06 has always been the ticket for me.
I just happen to have some 150gr Interlocks as well and you're right they do have more bearing surface and I was thinking along those lines but I have a ton of SST's that I got a few years back and I would love to get them to shoot. Besides I'm really curious as to how much adjusting seating depth will affect group size on these? But if they don't shoot I'll be trying the Interlocks soon.
Michael, I was always a heavy for caliber guy also. I used a 303 British a lot early on and all I could ever find were 180gr bullets and they did such a great job that I stuck with the heavy bullets for years and years even with .308 and 30-06. With that said, as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate the higher velocities from the lighter bullets.
Very interesting Mr Tom can't wait to see the results
I started my reloading journey with my new Bergara 6.5 PRC. I quickly had to forget about being .020 off the lands because my magazine would not except that long of a cartridge. So my maximum magazine length became my seating depth start. 2.98 inches. Saami is 2.955 I’m way off the lands. With that experience with that gun, my 270 win, and my 7mm rem mag all end up doing seating depth a little longer than Saami and then working back. All shoot 1/2 moa w multiple bullets. I no longer worry about the lands. For me, in a hunting rifle, .020 off the lands is a myth that can’t be accomplished with most magazines. If the ammo manufacturers can work around Saami length then we can too.
The only way to know you are truly .020 off the lands is to measure your rifle, not just follow SAMMI. It is also bullet dependant, measured to the ogive, not the COAL.
@@rperry70 I get it. But my magazine will only except 2.98 length and my lands are way longer than that. So unless I want to single load each bullet while I’m hunting, I’m not going to be .020 off the lands. Therefore I must work from 2.98 coal and in usually in .003 increments until I find a length that shoots.
Great presentation, Tom. I enjoy the depth of understanding you have and the way you bring history and experience to the forefront, with your easygoing style...thank you for who you are and for sharing your time with us.
Tom, I agree with you on seating depth. I usually shoot for seating bullets .010 off the lands. The exception are my military rifles. I have alot of experience loading for the 1903 and 1903 A3 Springfield's. I use the protocol and standard set by the military. I use a military cartridge and measure to the ogive to give me my OCL. For target shooting I try to achieve 2600 fps which the military established for optimal accuracy. For hunting I use a flat based bullet usually a Hornady Interlock which has been a great hunting bullet for me. I use a 150 great SP with 59 grs of IMR4831. This a old load from Ken Waters and has worked well in all of my 30-06s. Good luck.
Be interesting to see, just how much seating depth affects the round. There is also some other stuff that interests me, for instance, SAMMI pressures and spec.s vs CIP pressures and specs, Good video and am looking fwd to next week to see what happens..God Bless
Tom, I have been trying to get a "simple" explanation of seating depth on reloading forums and UA-cam. I usually get a thesis that I cannot understand have the thought process and terminology. I am a simple guy and needed a "Simple Living" explanation. You sir, speak in terms I understand. I am working on a Nosler ABLR 168 grain for a 308 Christensen Mesa. It shoots lights out with 150 grain Norma, so I know what the rifle is capable of. I found a very stable load with IMR4895 that provided great SD and ES. My groups were nothing to write home about. I loaded them with Nosler's, and other company's standard recommendation of 2.8" COAL. I got an OAL gauge (waiting on my 308 case to get hear_ to measure chamber length. I am hoping I can test .020" off the lands, but the explanation of how much surface area you need between the bullet and cartridge was a missing piece of my equation. Thank you, sir.
Interesting speculations! I think it totally makes sense too that seating depth in the case WOULD have a greater affect when the bullet is in more extreme positions forward and back in the chamber compared to the standard depth or a more moderate one.
When the bullet is all the way up into the chamber's throat, having more case depth seating for the bullet would extend the amount of time that the case would exert a tight hold/friction on the bullet; the highest point of the pressure spike potentially being higher because of it.
And when the bullet is much farther back in the chamber's throat with more case depth seating for the bullet, the increased time of the case holding onto the bullet might allow for significantly more pressure from the charge to flow around the bullet and down the barrel AHEAD of the bullet instead of propelling it from behind.
Tom,
The ogive profile on the SST bullets is different to reduce drag. Older bullet designs Cary the arc/radius further forward and engage the rifling closer in the 06…especially in a GI rifle which had it’s spec’s established before the secant ogive was employed.
The Nosler bullets tend to use a more traditional ogive curve and work better generally than the sst bullet. The older hornady designs like the interlock I believe do as well.
Good luck!
Tom, I appreciate your video on this process as this is exactly what I go through with my rifles and reloads. A related question for you: do you find that crimping a canelure or non canelure bullet makes a significant improvement in consistent velocity and accuracy? I hear this touted by LEE and I'd be interested to hear if you've done any practical tests? Thanks and God Bless !
I would be tempted to see what ratio a .300 win mag is in terms of bullet diameter vs seating depth and use that the minimum depth for this exercise. I have heard that the 300 win mag doesn't conform to usual wisdom of seating depth, but still manages good accuracy.
When I started learning / loading for my target 308 it jumped 100 thou. I was sad because I wanted to seem much cooler and smarter than that. I was getting 1/2" groups every weekend at 100 yards and 10" groups at 1K on that periodic range day. I just sucked it up and quit worrying about the jump for that rifle / load. Good times.
Tom, Love your channels. God bless you and yours.
Thanks BigT, and God bless you and yours as well.
I thoroughly enjoy your videos Tom. Thank you.
Thanks William!
you can use less than 1 caliber in the neck to get a Col, down to 1/2 caliber.
This is why copper bullets are great because you get the longer bullet benefit of heavier bullets but with the bullet actually being lighter
Be a little careful with that! Loading a copper bullet too close can cause dangerous pressure spikes. Most people knowledgeable in loading and shooting copper bullets will say no closer than .050”. I load them at .080 to .100” and yes I might sacrifice a little velocities but I’m always able to get sub MOA accuracy. And the velocity I’m giving up is usually around 50 fps. To me it’s not even worth considering, way too dangerous!
Do you have a follow up video to this one Tom?
Would be interesting to know what different seating depths showed. Thank you & God bless. 😎👍
Geometry moves the contact point a lot!
I always had the best accuracy in my 300 Win. Mag. using Nosler 165 grain BT bullets. Hornady's were just ok, Nosler was awesome, so I bought a lifetime supply. LOL Nice video.
Looks like it will be an interesting test. Looking forward to see what the results are. Thanks.
I have to admit I'm curious myself.
You talking bout some pretty deep rabbit holes Tom.
My pre 64 model 70 in 30-06 is just the opposite. It has quite a short throat. It’s easy to load 150 and 165’s close to the lands with plenty of bullet engagement in the case.
Greetings Tom , I would try something simple and traditional like a sierria 150 gr pro hunter flat base and some h4895 , blc2 , variet , or 4064. Test these at the top end of your load data since you already know that your gun does not exhibit high pressure there you should get some good results . If that doesn't work out go to some 175 or 180 gr bullets with 4350 or rl17 ND try that. Good luck and God bliss!!!
Leon, I'm going to try the length testing first just out of curiosity. I don't look for it to make a huge difference, but I am curious. Then if that doesn't work I'll be trying another powder. The main reason I want to stick with the SST's is just because I have a lot of them on hand that I got several years back and I really don't want to have to buy more bullets right now. Those things are getting pricy and hard to find. I'm seeing more and more but still not the greatest selection out there. And I can't remember the last time I saw a Pro Hunter or a Partition for sale. And I have gotten some great accuracy from the 150 SST's in the past.
My brother and I have had a few rifles that do not like sst bullets.
My wife's 6mm is the worst. With rem corlock it will print a 3 shot clover leaf.
The sst look like a shotgun pattern than a rifle group.
Can’t wait for the next video
Shorter OAL also reduces case capacity, which in general increases pressure
Got one with my 35 whelen ,it's a bad boy
I bet that 35 Whelen left a mark on him! LOL
Tom - I find your videos very interesting, and free of the hype normally found. Please forgive me if you've already addressed it, but I would like to know if your Springfield (made by Remington, probably) has the original GI barrel on it. If so, it's probably a four groove, not a two groove, right?
Thanks, and please keep up the good work.
You could try the longest 150 grainer you can find like a pro hunter with a flat bass and a shallow ogive. A round nose would be ideal but I’m sure you’d rather stay with a spitzer.
My 1903 (1941) shoots 180 grain Sierra game kings under an inch at .015 off the lands.
You had a chronograph, I'm curious was the MV more consistent for the smaller groups than the larger groups as that might effect accuracy.
I do like your videos, well done and informative. thanks.
ive not been able to get 150 grain sst to group either. switched to interlock flat base
Try 180gr. Bullets???
180 is the bullet for the 06.
I’m not seeing the video reviewing the results of seating depth vs. pattern.
I don't like doing load development in the winter because I have popped primers with the same load in the summer but that's just me! Great vid! Was you successful this deer season? Did your bullet perform?
Great point Cory, and I'm with you on doing the load development in the summer. I prefer that myself. But I'm not pushing it on pressures since this is an 80 year old rifle. As for the deer, I've only hunted one afternoon with the muzzleloader. It's just been rough this year finding time to hunt and I just haven't been motivated.
Hello I own a 1903 A3 Springfield with a serial number 3444491 I was wondering what over the counter ammunition would be safe to shoot in this rifle
Change one thing at a time when your hand loading and trying to get the best group
Please don't forget about the .257 Roberts.
Tom, did you ever post your testing results? Not seeing a video.
I was wondering the same thing. I wanted to see the following video with the results of different seating depths. He said next week, the video is about 4 month old now. I can’t find the follow up video either. 😢
@@repairfreak Tom, where are you? We need seating depth testing results.
I wanted to get into loading. This just made me realize I might not want to.
LOL, I didn't mean to scare you away from reloading. It doesn't have to be this complicated but there's just something about human nature that once we start down that road we just have to make this complicated.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I tend to be that way as well. Thats was scares me. Love your videos very helpful to new guys. Glad I saw your video on cleaning JB has been great on the old guns
What happened to the range video? Did I miss something?
My 30-06 hates 150s , 180s only or copper solids... Long bullets.
Could it like a different powder? My old 30-06 load that shot good for me was 150 grain Speer hot core and imr 4064 powder but I’ve also herd that varget with 150 grain bullets are good I have not used varget in the 30-06
06 likes 165 and preferably 180 grain
What happend to the fn supreme ?
Tom...like your style.
maybe possible to seat those pills out further...to say, half fill the neck?
Try a 130gr in the 06. you will lie it
Do yall stretch your neck to close gap to lands
Do you stretch the shoulder and neck
When the brass gets sized in the die it puts everything back in place. And then the case stretches when it fires. So the firing does all of the stretching.
Eldx
I think it just doesn’t like the socialist hornady bullets.
I use to be a hornady fan but after their stances and blatantly liking to people about their cartridges I’ve moved on.
Speer is a economical working man’s hunting bullet. Also will splurge for some ballistic tips and Sierra game kings.
That pretty much sums up my thoughts right there Kentuckguy. I'm shooting up the Hornady bullets I already have but it's tough for me to make myself buy and more.
Tom what rifle are you hunting with this year? The 7mm Mauser super grade?
That's some interesting stuff. Do you have good luck with the SST on deer?