In other words... Don't ask right wingers stuff. It breaks their brains lol. Granted this can happen with a leftist or dem but let's get real... It TOTALLY happens almost every time whenever you question a right winger.
Since folks have asked, the "Buddy Cop" movies from the montage, in order: 6:05 - DEAD HEAT 6:15 - TANGO & CASH 6:20 - BAD BOYS 2 6:29 - TANGO & CASH (again) 6:41 - KNOCK OFF 7:05 - STONE COLD
Bob, please keep doing the "There is nothing new under the sun", "What's old is new again" perspective-giving. It's incredibly important to have influencer-types reminding all of us that history didn't begin 5-10 years ago :)
@@seanwilkinson7431 LMAO... okay, points for getting a chuckle out of me. >w> But yeah, MovieBob's got the gift of gab and actually knows what he's talking about. Which is why he's openly despised by dingleberries who think he's a Neo-Nazi because he doesn't suffer fools gladly (somehow "I am stuck in traffic and momentarily frustrated with my fellow motorists" translates to "I SUPPORT EUGENICS") and think finding pics of him wearing his Mario or Captain N cosplay is some kind of "gotcha."
The guy complaining about Peach being a leader is just the funniest thing. Peach has ran the Mushroom Kingdom since…forever. There’s no king, just her, and she runs the whole place. She was a playable character in the second game, and while that’s arguably canon, she was a fighter in Melee over 20 YEARS AGO. Peach being able to hold her own is nothing new. Yeah, she’s quiet and demure and maybe a little off sometimes, but if you mess with her she will smash your face in with a turnip.
No-one tell them about Metroid - that game from the mid-80s where the badass bounty hunter was a woman all along (except you couldn't tell during the game because of the 8-bit graphics). Or the obscure 1979 movie no-one's ever heard of about a spaceship called the Nostromo... Clearly these are also products of 2010s wokeness (don't think too hard about the chronology there...)
Honestly, the fact someone's "red-flag" moment in the Marrio movie trailer was Peach acting assertively is very telling. Seriously, she's the ruler of an entire kingdom, of course she's gonna act like she's in charge, because she is.
Yeah right, what are you gonna tell us next? That "ass-kicking authority figure" and "warrior princess" are well-established tropes and having one of the most well-known characters of the franchise just get captured and sit in a dungeon for the entire runtime (like it was in the games that are definitely mostly renowned for their Tolkien-level storytelling) would be incredibly boring and a wasted opportunity? I'll have you know that there's a 4,5 hour long UA-cam video just waiting to tell you how that's actually wrong.
For years, and I do mean for many, many, many fucking years, dudebros would hammer on Peach specifically. The line "put a GPS on this bitch" is so ubiquitous that it's become its own cliché. They hated Peach because she always got kidnapped, despite that 1. Peach isn't kidnapping herself and 2. Everything that happens in every story is decided by the writer, so they aren't mad at Peach they're mad at the writers of Mario games. But then Gamergate happened and some women had the audacity to tell these shit for brains that it was really weird and off putting that writers in games kept doing this shit, and all of a sudden it is sacrosanct, Peach must always be a meek princess because that's just how women are, nevermind we spent three decades whining about how much we hate when we see women this way. God. It is tiring and frustrating. I wanna just scream.
@@DerMoerpler also I think the trapped in a dungeon would call up the "sorry Mario, your princess is in another castle" routine. they definitely whine about that.
People keep forgetting that “Marvel humor” or that kind of snarky back-and-forth dialogue has been around longer than the MCU, but because the MCU is the most popular thing out there, that’s what it’s called to people with narrow views on media.
Honestly it is just a modern update of the madcap comedy genre. I think it's a genre that could make a cool modern comeback. We like fast-talking absurd humor.
@@christopherb501 Yep, and what makes it even funnier is that there's a backlash against people thinking Whedon invented it, which of course he didn't but he did put it to good use in Buffy with his own twist. When it comes down to it, it's just a phrase that people use to insult and dismiss the MCU since they don't like it and that's the laziest and easiest way to do it. I always feel like it's ironic being that people who love to bag on the MCU for being unoriginal and repetitive use the most unoriginal and repetitive insults to whine about it. 😁
I called it "Whedon Dialog". Before that, I think "Poochie Dialog" would be the most fitting (that term was'nt used but I think it articulates 90's writing with forced 'attitude' in it). Before that "Buddy Cop Dialog" Before that? Well shit I don't know what life was like before the great biblical flood. 😉
@natf7942 I think a lot of it is the significantly lower reception Phase 4 got. If I'm being honest, phase 4 does'nt really feel like it has the same "magic" to it (not really a criticism as that'd be a silly thing to articulate). Regardless I did enjoy most of it's shows and hope things pick up in phase 5. I think they did loose a significant talent though once James Gunn permenantly departed.
Jeez, I didn't realize until the thumbnail, but... yeah. Talking like a contemporary person and snarking at everyone around you making grand soliloquies is basically Army of Darkness.
horror films in the 80s in general had a lot of that kind of dialogue, it was especially common for slasher-villains to dole out corny one-liners after killing their victims and that's just sort of become an accept part of the genre now, I don't hear anybody calling that MCU-humor when a horror film does that sort of thing.
It's a new version of the _"CalArts"_ perjorative that was aimed at Steven Universe and other shows of its ilk. It's a quick way for bunch of socially insular, overwhelmingly white straight dudes to say the following: _"This is clearly being made for people in mind that, that in terms of age/ethnicity/gender identity/sexual orientation are not necessarily just like me, and the animation style this show has adopted may inform or be informed by that. Which means I and the people who look and act like me are not the only taste makers in our society, the only arbiters of beauty, professionality, creative expression, _*_and we certainly can't have that."_* It also smacks of the backlash to the rising popularity of disco music in the late 70s, for really, really similar reasons.
I love you literally just admit that the entirety of the CalArts style is literally made to indulge socially inept teenagers that are obnoxiously obsessed with being politically correct. It’s a quick way for people of your ilk to express the following: *”This was made for people like me and people likeminded to me who suffer from a perpetual victim complex and believes there are Nazis hiding under our beds, and thinks that every person who fits within our description of “marginalized” thinks the same way and follows our overwhelming white liberal savior rhetoric.”*
Youre the kind of person who would eat from a toilet if a billionaire told you straight white guys wouldnt like it. Literally your entire idea of a pejorative is theres this non-existent boogeyman of straight white guys who wont let you watch cartoons for children meant to sell toys… meanwhile, the guys who own the toy companies, who do the marketing, who ghostwrite the scripts, hire the help and who greenlight the shows are all straight white guys It’s this weird thing of using racism and sexism to justify not having anything made by an auteur. Like to you minorities or women dont want to watch a period drama or a character study or a thriller or an arthouse film instead theyre meant to settle for Marvel movies and reboots of 80s shlock Literally the definition of “dont ask questions just consume product and get excited for next product”
@@johnathonhaney8291”take that white guys, billionaire corporations are too big to fail!” ?? Arent u guys meant to be left wing? Your politics are just Reaganite yuppie views except you really like video games
“Actually these movies made by and for straight white people to make money for a megacorp are actually queer because the fascist wears a rainbow color”
"Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow up question " It's amazing how a facade is easily broken when asking simple questions like "why" or "how"
What's funny is, that this also works in reverse. I've had a conversation with someone about the Dr. Seuss books back when they were being b!tched at by the conservatives because they took some books out of print. When he asked the question "well if you take these books down then where does it end?" I quoted John Oliver and said "Somewhere. It stops somewhere!" I then explained that the issue wasn't a political issue but instead the Dr. Seuss foundation deciding to stop printing some books of their's they no longer wanted to keep printing. He stopped arguing about it at that point because...well, he realized his mistake. I want to make it clear that he and I were still friends afterwards and he is a smart guy. He just needed to learn to think more critically and to not take ANYTHING on fox news seriously. It's amazing how little some people think about thinks and will just let other people tell them what to think. Just about any of their arguments can be destroyed the moment they have to think beyond the base level of their arguments and actually realize how shallow their politics are.
Yeah asking a follow-up question if someone makes a bold claim reminds me of something famous apologists Frank Turek once said "It's not your job to refute what they say it's their job to support what they say."
@@dragon1130 Exactly. Like those who blindly oppose criticism of the reason those books were being taken out of print. Thinking that because your friend wasn't clever enough to respond to your gotcha question in 2 seconds somehow that changes the validity of the criticism. It's strange how you think only those who disagree with your groupthink are somehow the ones not thinking for themselves. Almost like you don't think for yourself. Similar to thinking a quote from a UA-camr is some profound revelation simply because you agree with their politics.
Except everyone has criticized that dialogue for being hacky, unrealistic and giving every character the same cadence But hey if you can strawman people as critics you dont have to get a real taste for movies
“See! Jokes existed in other movies as deiberately comic relief or as a form of camp, so megacorps should be worshipped for doing it now! Eat the sludge bigot!”
Bob, I love you. I think this is one of the best videos you've done. Also, I miss you talking about videogames. One thing that I realized it's how far we have come regarding superheroes. In the 80s the only good superhero movies were Donner's Superman and Burton's Batman. Now, not only we have more movies that I could dream of, not only we have whole schedules for upcoming movies, but Marvel has become the stabilshment, the ideal everyone else wants to copy. So, you know what, "marvel humor" is actually a compliment
“Marvel humor is actually a compliment” in the same way us imperialism is actually a compliment because it gave us the godzilla movies. Very stupid to praise dumb comic book movies with childish morals becoming the establishment, as if the only good comic book writer warned us that shit is borderline fascistic
It's times like these when I feel I must remind everyone that Macbeth (one of the most famous and serious plays from the English language's most celebrated author) contains a monologue about the porter's whiskey dick.
I think a big problem with this approach to writing is one of "know your audience". If the audience is having more fun with your soliloquizing villain and your played-straight milquetoast everyman, and that is who they are identifying with, then your supposed protagonist whose job is to irritate and defy those characters...is going to irritate the audience. I, personally, find the dialogue in the game clips shown here to be insufferable. But, then again, I could say the same about the buddy cop clips. I think that was the point. People that are too quippy for their own good, who act like they're better than everyone around them, and never get taken down a peg are unlikeable. Which is not to say they are bad characters. They just need to bring something to the table that makes it worth it to suffer through their dialogue. It actually took me watching this video to fully understand why I never liked Axel Foley in Beverly Hills Cop. He is exactly the same type of character!
Forget Star Wars and 80s cop movies. Bond was always quipping, as was Sam Spade, Rick Blane and Philip Marlowe. Shakespeare was shot through with hilarious dialog "No, 'tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church-door, but 'tis enough, 'twill serve. Ask for me to-morrow, and you shall find me a grave man"
Literally "Do you bite your thumb at me sir?" "I do bite my thumb. But I do not necessarily bite my thumb at thee, sir!" Fucking hell that was Romeo and Juliet.
Demetrius: Villain, what hast thou done? Aaron: That which thou canst not undo. Chiron: Thou hast undone our mother. Aaron: Villain, I have done thy mother." From "Titus Andronicus" -William Shakespeare
@@Gigasius Shakespeare, the originator of "yo momma" jokes. Many people who bitch about stuff like this today, don't realize that most of it goes back to at least Shakespeare or even earlier. Read Shakespeare, he's awesome.
“You dont understand mom, watching he-man at age 40 is exactly the same as Shakespeare having witty dialogue” This is like saying that Big Bang Theory and Frasier are the same because they both have out of touch smart people as characters
Great video Bob. Felt very classic Big Picture. I really fight hard to avoid having the memetic pre-baked discussions that ping pong around the internet whenever stuff like this comes up. I am one hundred percent agree with your suggestion that you ask the person you're talking to to drill a little deeper and try to explain what they're really talking about, cuz who knows maybe you'll learn something. And if they don't have anything deeper to discuss you can take that as a good sign that you should maybe talk about something else or exit the conversation.
Nah hes just trying to defend the soulless gruel because he believes marvel disproves the aeuter theory. Jusy like he thought there was a conspiracy against Eternals
“The console wars were my personal vietnam” “Thats a small amount of mcdonalds for an average size person” “I wish the KKK didnt ruin IQ tests for voting”
Really great piece. You could have gone even farther back... Leslie Charteris was writing "good guy cracks jokes with aplomb under pressure to make the action punchier" into his "Saint" novels in the 1930s, as one example. Almost every "Marvel humor" line you recall could have come from one of those books. Harry Harrison and the Stainless Steel Rat novels also come to mind.
But why fuss over the roots when you can just pretend/lie over what came before? BTW, bonus points for remembering the Saint novels, which I've read a few of myself.
I have to admit, I IMMEDIATELY knew what Bob meant when he brought up "Marvel writing" and "Marvel dialogue", but it is fascinating to actually dissect it and actually unpack what that's even supposed to me. It definitely feels like one of those phrases/terms that everyone is *supposed* to understand what it means, but can't quite define, a kind of "I know it when I see/hear it" sort of thing... of course, everyone has a different idea of what constitutes "Marvel writing"/"Marvel dialogue" and that can get confusing when it comes to saying "this is just like Marvel" and people don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I did see one guy who took issue with the dialogue in Forspoken and said "this is a lot like a Marvel movie, in that the banter is dissolving the tension and making me take this less seriously than I should be", and he's a smart, introspective guy, albeit not a big movie-goer. Honestly, that Simpsons clip was a good or at least decent summation of what "Marvel dialogue" is, "funny but not too funny banter". I think the problem with Forspoken is that they overdo the banter and it got tiresome, but that's just me. Edit: 5:36-5:41 Reminds me of that one time someone shared a clip from The Amazing World of Gumball where Gumball "trained in the ways of the social justice warrior" to combat a seemingly overly PC character named Carmen, but *conveniently* cut off the ending to that scene, namely that Carmen "fought back" by (quoting the Wiki summary of what happened here) "calmly but affirmatively tell[ing] Gumball that disguising his selfish desires as concern for others' well-being hurts the causes of legitimate issues". This ends up defeating Gumball, who bemoans how he can't even be mad at her. Edit2: Changing "Forsaken" to "Forspoken"... which is a dumb name anyway, spelling wrong no less.
Forspoken's problem isn't the banter, at least not from Frey, as Jim Sterling pointed out in their review it's mainly the Cuff that's the problem with his constant sarcasm and all the cliched stock medieval characters who spout dumb crap.
Rubberman did you happen to frequent SMBZ and/or VGLan forums back in the 2000s because I swear I’ve been seeing your comments on random shit for the last 20 years
" Marvel dialogue " to me is when the dialogue is written in a way that someone who has only seen how people interact from third person would write. Like as if saying, "I'm sure this is how humans interact."
It's so damn dumb, this "Marvel writing". I'm going through the Buck Rogers series on Tubi right now. And honestly our title character speaks lines like Ryan Reynolds in Deadpool and has attitude like Brie Larson in Captain Marvel. And THAT series was late 1970s.
When Legend of Korra came out a similar thing happened to it that’s happening with Forspoken now. A lot of people were like “I don’t like Korra I think she’s annoying” they could never really explain why and they could never admit that they just didn’t like a young woman with power going around doing her own thing.
I liked Korra for being a successful avatar in the ring, but not on the stage and struggle with that. But Season 2 really made it hard to watch her. Yes, there decision and reaction may make sense in context, but it just wasn't fun to watch such a character.
I like Korra both as a character and as a series, but I kinda liked Avatar more, not sure if it was just more of the same. Don't get me wrong, it was great, but not as great as Avatar.
The wildest thing is that Korra was supposed to be annoying in the first season. She's a foil for spiritual Aang, a hot headed avatar for whom all of her bending came naturally and so she has a chip on her shoulder. There's plenty of issues with LoK but Korra's character arc is one of the best parts.
I think that had more to do with the fact that the writers literally had the character say, "I'm the Avatar! And there's nothing you can do about it!" Like on the first watchthrough I just saw that as her being a negotistical little shit of a child, but I can see how old fans took umbrage with it, because it is literally using your character as a mouthpiece and antagonizing old fans for no reason.
@@celestine1149 Yeah this was my takeaway from the shows. I like the original series better as a whole, but Korra is one of the most well-realized and interesting characters in the greater Avatar canon and a more compelling protagonist than Aang.
I wrote a paper on State & Main in university! Excellent movie and hugely overlooked, arguably even more relevant today than it was 20 years ago and a fantastic performance from Hoffman
It was literally a reddit quip which meant nothing and anyone who has ever criticized marvel dialogue has pretty solid critiques which he doesnt understand, after all this is the guy who thought the Covenant were the good guys for having diverse slaves
I thought you were gonna go back to the grandfather of all witty one-liners and shrug-off’er of serious situations, 007 himself. He, whom without, we wouldn’t have the revived one man action-hero in the 80s that split into two for the “buddy cop” nonsense. Great commentary
The wisecracking know it all guy was a staple of movies and comedies back in the 1930's and 40's. Bogart did it, the Marx Brothers did it, WC Fields did it. They used the style when Hollywood made training films for GI's in WWII. Even a general in WWII did it, that's Nuts !!!
Was literally just thinking of the Groucho Marx when he as giving examples. Dude couldn't stay quiet for moment, always cracking off asides or rapid fire digs at his adversaries. And, of course, you've got the Loony Toons popping up variations on "Screwy, ain't it?" signs to the audience. FFS, some the best bits of Casablanca are Renault's cheerful apathy and Rick's dry, too cool for school rejoinders.
@@steampunker7 And then you've got the nonstop Wit Olympics that was The Big Sleep with Bogie and Bacall. Fave line from that one: "My, my, my, such a lot of guns around town and so few brains."
"I'm shocked, shocked that there's gambling going on at this establishment!" [gets handed his winnings] would be eaten alive as "Marvel Humor" by grifters online today
Honestly, I have been loving Forspoken. Their are plenty of serious moments to balance out the quippy stuff. I love the part where Frey is mentally dealing with the fact that she basically murdered a person after the first Tanta boss battle.
Well to be fair. It didn't work out well for the first D&D movie. It would be like Chris Pratts Mario is a normal live action human who gets sent to a post apocalyptic alternate dimension because of a rock in Manhattan.
7:00: I'm a tiny bit surprised you didn't throw in a clip from the short-lived TV comedy series _Sledge Hammer,_ which took exactly that set of tropes and ran with it.
I do love how you are able to put so many things into perspective like this. What I will add here is that my first exposure to this sort of dialogue was in a book series I started reading in 1992... the first book of which was published in *1982* . It was Pawn of Prophecy by David (& Leigh) Eddings, the first of 12 books in two connected book series with two additional spin-off novels; the final book was released in 1997 (and, again, the first book was published in '82). Those books, and most of the other novels Eddings wrote, had that quick banter, wisecracking heroes, snappy dialogue, etc etc (though not "Buffy Speak", which as with many things is actually a *very specific* trope).
There is a French Graphic novel series, Black Moon Chronicles, from the late 80's where everything is hyper-epic, but the main characters all talk French popular slang and street talk. It's kinda cool, but when you have a fantasy series where battles involve millions, and everything is grander than grand it kinda feels like a cheap gimmick after a while, especially when the writer made several other series that are all done the same way, funny popular characters in a massive epic setting.
Hot damn, this is an insightful episode! It probably explains why I've never considered "this is Marvel writing" as decent criticism ever. I grew up with Schwarzenegger un-ironically making terrible lines after every kill or action beat.
As one of the six people whose played Forspoken, I can confirm that discourse around the dialog is way overblown. But that's what Twitter does I guess.
Wow, that dude talking about everyone being ugly is a piece of work. So apparently, fhe only like games where even the archivist NPC is designed to sexually aroused him. Good lord. (And let's not even get into how totally fine that character design is, and how completely off-base he is calling it ugly and unrealistic)
It also shows how stupid these people are, as they think that a librarian in "medieval times" would be "poor". Which... no. Taking care of books and records is like really important. You don't just grab somebody off the streets to do it, *especially* at a time when literacy wasn't common-place.
@@johnathonhaney8291its weird how it’s become left wing now to praise corporations for including fat people as characters, when they literally put the shit in your food that makes it addictive and fattening But hey gotta get mad at guys for not liking fat people in video games(?) rather than getting mad at childhood obesity or the fact corporations throw out tons of food instead of giving it to the homeless
On the origins of humor in the modern Marvel film, Jon Favreau had said it was the reverse of what he experienced working on Elf. On that movie, every last joke was scrutinized during production, but because they weren't paying as much attention to the action he could pretty much stage those sequences however he wanted. In Iron Man's case, the action beats are what got the focus from upstairs, and the freedom on his end was in the comedy.
The line in forspoken where she says "if youre gonna rhyme just kill me now" was legit funny. The problem is these games have SO MUCH GAME and thus SO MUCH DIALOGUE and it's hard to write that much good dialogue unless you're the people that wrote Disco Elysium or like Planescape Torment.
@@bazzfromthebackground3696 Well, the microbrains that are showing you clips of dialogue are pretty much forced to only show cut scenes instead of gameplay, right.
Even in those examples, the dialog was still a bit too heavy. I know I'm in the minority here but I don't think Torment was that great. I don't think it's bad, just not that great. There was too much exposition. I get why, but it felt less like a series of words and sentences meant to immerse me in the universe and more like an over enthusastic DM proud of their lore and is damn sure gonna make you hear it no matter how long it takes. That or an insidious hydra like monster made of letters and words that exponentially grows more dialog arms and tenticles everytime you clicked on one. I think the best example of good well-balanced dialog comes from Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (simply mentioning that game causes 1 out of every 5 people who read this to reinstall that game but, I digress...). The dialog got the point across without being too heavy or too much, had a great balance of levity and seriousness, and flavored the world you were in perfectly. Other great examples of dialog in gaming include Wastelands III and Bioshock.
I like the dialogue in "Forspoken." Yeah, most of the people with a problem with this game have a problem with it... because that dialogue is being delivered by a sassy, streetwise woman of color. Let's not pretend that racism isn't a factor here... most of the noise in "pop-culture discourse" is coming from uncouth loudmouths pining for the days when entertainment was made by and for white people, because "Old Black Joe needs to go back to picking cotton for my best girl's ribbons and bows." And it's idiotic. Representation matters, regardless of what some sad beardo or money-grubbing Channer-Scum jackass working for Geeks & Gamers has to say on the subject. Which is why Bob is right... Watch More Things.
@@alnu8355 Ps:T wasn't for everyone as it's... As I phrase it, my favorite novel to play through. And that's... Just how it is. Less gameplay, more just... Reading. A novel with some gameplay bits. 😂 So of course, not for everyone, it's just about looking at it through the right lens to see it's greatness I guess, and knowing it won't be for everyone.
I avoid the types of critics that Bob likes to prop up as examples of this specific brand of terrible. Watching even the short clips he includes instinctively makes me want to run for the hills. But I appreciate him showing them all the same. It keeps me current and gives me perspective and an... unfortunate knowledge that such individuals exist, make content, and have audiences.
The majority of internet ‘conversation’ about things seems to be first and foremost a peremptory shield against having to actually engage. People use veils of objectivity like obsessing over whether adaptions are tick-box accurate instead of actually good, or language that is entirely dismissive without context. It means you get to have your little hot take to prove you’re relevant without the risk of actually exposing it to any form of critique or analysis.
Yeah, about those tick box accurate adaptations...I've come to the conclusion that most of those are BORING. I used to love Sin City and Watchmen for how much they nailed the original material. Then I realized that I could have just reread the material and got the same experience. Unless you're bringing something new, you're wasting everyone's time.
There's also too much media out but more opinions than water on the planet and there's too much to form an opinion for your own, so you just take someone elses word for it
But like... MCU bad. For real though, it's hilarious when people want to hate on it so much they literally make up what they think it did and has no basis in fact. But then if you try to point that out you're an MCU shill. Anything said in even slight defence of the MCU is seen as instantly losing to these people. Imagine if they just went and enjoyed what they like instead of spending so much time crapping on what they don't. But then again, they couldn't be smugly condescending in order to feel superior if they did that.
@@natf7942 Hell, I'm ride or die MCU, so it's not that much an insult. And I've probably watched more movies from more eras than those oh-so-serious dummies ever knew existed.
As someone that didn't follow forspoken whatsoever beyond knowing it existed and was announced years back I'm certainly curious about it now weirdly cause the dialogue doesn't look that far off from how I talk with friends
I wouldn't be surprised if Forespoken ends up getting a small, but dedicated fanbase that realy likes the game's vibe and the things it does well, a bit like Days Gone or Sunset Overdrive.
The very definition of a cult classic AKA the thing you love for itself instead of using it to clout-chase. Remedy Entertainment has built its rep and studio on such games (funny how no one ever bitched about Control being initially a commercial flop despite it being a wonderfully mindbending game).
Days Gone is a masterpiece. I've said it when it was released and the critique was "it's just another buggy zombie game bla bla bla" (and yeah, it was buggy on release, but it got patched very fast), and I'll say it again after a few playthroughs I did over the years. I even started a new playthrough a couple of weeks ago, didn't get very far, but even staring it felt great. I love the characters, the setting, the story, the gameplay - everything in it just worked for me. I might try Forspoken when it'll be on discount. So far, it doesn't look like something I'd pay a full price for.
I love your work Bob, it's been a genuine pleasure to watch it grow from it's early roots to what it is today. Even, thoughtful, and insightful critique of popular culture is a dying artform and you are one of it's last practitioners.
So...people are turned off by the idea of fantasy characters spitting modern sounding quips while they are in a serious/dangerous situation... In a d&d movie. Tell me you k ow nothing about dnd without telling me you know nothing about dnd. Also, I had no idea forspoken was a singleplayer fantasy adventure game about a modern person stuck in a fantasy realm, havig known that i would have checked it out before, thank you bob!
Its ironic even your defense of dnd writing includes a hackneyed meme line delivered badly. If its based on real life to have a dnd movie have crappy writing (which i liked that movie btw so i disagree with the assessment) shouldnt the dnd people also be four fat racists eating pizza the whole time and then going home early when one of them has an argument over dice fudging?
First off, I have gotten so sick of people whining about the MCu in general that I've come to actually take pleasure in watching people get upset about it. Secondly, anyone who thinks that kind of witty dialogue is linked exclusively with the MCU has never seen: The West Wing Babylon 5 Justice League: TAS or Justice League Unlimited Much of Star Trek: DS9 Star Trek: The one with the whales Demolition Man Robocop Even Star Wars (1977) largely incorporated into the script. "Boring conversation anyways" ring any bells?
Oh wow literally the only thing you cited that wasnt lowbrow genre fiction is west wing, famously just a capeshit version of a political show. Do you watch any real shows?
nice to have a soild analytical piece with a banger of a closing line like that. it's been a while since you've made one of those. I remember the first few times I saw big picture videos like this I said "OOOOOOOOHH" out loud in a library at the end. been hooked on your stuff ever since. keep it up!
Bob thanks for delving into this kind of stuff so I don't have too. It's good to be aware of whatever new pop culture/ 'culture war' bs is bubbling up but my mental state would not survive having to follow all this noise
I had that thought! It sounds very similar to that! It's like, guys, please think a bit more about these things and put more effort instead of parroting someone else.
I do wonder if this backlash against every kind of humor being “MCU humor” is gonna lead to studios going too far in the other direction and having a bunch of joyless self-serious movies/games/shows and then these same people are gonna be bitching about that. It’s annoying because there is a legit critique to be made of the MCU’s use of bathos but like pretty much every other legit critique of the MCU (propaganda, formula etc.), the impact on the films themselves is MASSIVELY overstated online because “ popular thing bad”
As far as I see it. The whole witty/jokey dialog in action films originates from Die Hard. A film that's.....checks notes.... widely regarded as one of the best action films of all time.
@@jadedheartsz Indeed, you can trace snappy dialogue like that to the start of the sound era. Hell, watch the Bogie/Bacall version of The Big Sleep for a prime example.
The Thin Man series was hinged on the lead couple Nick & Norah Charles bouncing dialogue off each other and downing booze like there was no tomorrow. Sure there was a mystery but they and the audience hardly cared about that. It wasn't the focus and rightly so
“Erm yea, like checks notes, die hard exists so erm thats a thing and like die hard is awesome is like bacon and narwals so erm every movie should be like that and stuff” you say before vomitting on a garbage can in order to eat the chocolate bar hidden inside a diaper like a fly
Yep...because once again the angry nerds don't understand why they're not part of the cool kid set. If you're a Gen Xer, it's doubly embarrassing if you're acting like this.
Its amazing that people can have such low standards that saying “hey maybe we should include different artstyles instead of making everything as cheap as possible factory produce” is seen as this weird right wing attitude. Like so would you only ever want to go to an art gallery with one kind of impressionist?
*THANK YOU* for pointing out how this *exact same criticism* was being leveled at Forspoken and the D&D movie trailer. Because I swear, the _exact_ crowd looking at the Forspoken trailer and going, "I don't get it. What's the problem?" were the _same people_ complaining about the D&D trailer. I get not liking that kind of writing, but if so, at least be fair when you complain about it. Also, thanks for the _multitude_ of examples of this type of writing pre-dating the MCU and Wheedon. Feel like I should drop the clip from Star Wars into the next discussion about this kind of writing.
This was the first time I've heard of it....and her lines are pretty good actually! "If you're going to rhyme just kill me now" haha, that was good. They modernized the dialogue and made it more realistic. Take it or leave it. There are countless games in the world, it's OK to not like every single one.
Yeah, I found myself chuckling at the dialogue snippets used in the video, too. From what I understand, having not played the game myself, is that the game has much worse issues than the voice acting which is damaging it’s sales.
there's like one bit of cringe-worthy dialogue I've seen from the clips going around, and it's the one where she gets her powers but like even then it's not that bad lol. The rest of the protagonist's performance is just like, good. Solid delivery, a good back and forth with the cuff/magic thing, etc.
Well, Bob, I had already noticed pretty much everything you point out, but you put it better than I ever could, so I will just quote Lando Mort: "THANK YOU!"
I've known, for most of my life, that there will be legions of people out there who will band together and look down upon this or that piece of media and will be more than willing to heap mockery upon those who enjoy it. They will have this mindset of "it's wrong to enjoy this thing and there's something wrong with you if you do", and after a while it just got tiresome. And from what Bob's telling us here, that sentiment has not only persistent, but become more entrenched, more venomous as time has gone on. It's not ideal, to put it mildly, but to any who read this comment, I say this to you. Like what you like. If something brings you joy to read or watch or play, then enjoy it. Life's too short to waste over worrying what a bunch of strangers think about your tastes 😊
Being able to look those people in the eye, tell them "fuck you" at the top of your lungs and carry on loving it anyway without a thought towards whether it makes you cool or not...THAT is what OG nerds were about.
You say that but then if you dont write like this your product doesnt get made. This isnt an equal playing field “ a character study about a gen xer and a younger person and how their upbringings have given them different attitudes” is more likely to go direct to streaming or a limited release than “guy in tights fights other guy in tights”
(15:57) Some people don't want to have conversations; they just want to be agreed with because that feels good. It's extremely frustrating when **any** response other than "here's your participation trophy for repeating the latest slogan!" is treated as a personal attack.
For example. I would love to have a discussion about Ant-Man Quantumania. I'm an easy lay for comic book silliness and I think it looks fun, but I also recognize there's criticisms to be had regarding Marvel, Disney, and the MCU Machine. Problem is that 5 seconds after the 1st trailer dropped, everyone and their dog decided "Quantumania=Shark Boy and Lava girl" and every single attempt to have any kind of dialogue, positive or negative, went right down the damn toilet.
Which is the opposite of being a true nerd, really. You love the thing for its own sake, NOT to accumulate social currency so you can stay with your in-group. You're that weak when it comes to defending what you love, then you're not worth listening to.
Except this video is in itself a thought terminating cliche: youre NOT allowed to make fun of the shitty dialogue without having a conversation, but I can call you an istphobezi for not consuming my product
Oh God, just about everything Rob Snyder has ever said in a movie could be considered "Marvel Humor". He's like the personification of this phenomenon!
Humorless children get angry and demonize things that aren't dark enough for them. Unfortunately that isn't new at all but I suppose they are particularly threatened by Marvel because people are enjoying those movies and they aren't cynical or at someone's expense. That really makes the edgy darker-than-thou types angry.
“people are enjoying” lmaoo they bombed really badly “At someone’s expense” they are literally pro-corporate pro-military propaganda funded by the pentagon. The villains are always anti-government (Killmonger) or anti-corporate (Whiplash, Mysterio) in some way
Have people ever been at an actual high pressure situation in a team? Honestly, if you are not joking around and doing banther, you are having a meltdown. Which one do you prefer to see in movies? You know, the big medium that's supposed to entertain us.
I like Marvel dialog so believe me when I say the examples of dialog you provided in the middle of the video all served a utilitarian purpose in conveying the story. None of those jokes were their for the sole purpose of being jokes.
Nailed it Bob! I was sort of surprised that Forspoken wasn't getting a huge 'women and black people are bad' type of discourse but then it became "Forspoken is the worse thing to ever exist, don't buy it and I hope it fails'. Ohh there it is, like Bob said, it ends up just being a read between the lines type of thing. I rarely see such anger spewed at a game because it's just so average and needs some optimization patches. I liked the comparison to Uncharted, that's a game that never hooked me because I just don't find Nathan Drake interesting, so I don't care about his adventure. I think a lot of gamers are experiencing a game with story and characters that they just don't have much empathy for, so the smallest slight or inconvenience from the game feels 10x worse to them. So many reviews call Frey unlikable...which feels like a very individual subjective interpretation that a lot of reviews latched onto as being an objective fact for some reason.
“Ummm actually one of the most popular narrative games ever, literally WRITTEN by a woman, is bad because it’s a white man in it. Oh this game has shitty writing? Written by a bunch of old japanese men? Oh it’s because theres a black woman in it, any criticism of corpo slop is corporate language tor black hatred. Because corporations love black people clearly and now i must defend corporations” My guy, youd relate more to the cast of Uncharted than fucking Frey or whatever. Because Drake is a character written not to be relatable but to be flawed and a bit unrealistic, because he is contrasted by a different cast of people of all different races and genders who develop him Gamers arent going “ew black woman i cant relate”, they fucking play as blue hedgehogs and purple dragons. It just wasnt a very good game, and your willingness to play identity politics about two sets of games you have NEVER played is more ignorant than people dismissing it because the dialogue is terrible
And people complained about Bond dialogue being used in say Doctor Who Turns out “doing the thing” years ago doesnt make it good when you repeat it, in fact that makes it worse because youre repeating an old bit
Everyone loved Whedon's banter in Firefly, Avengers 1 and 2, etc.. But now that others copied his style to the point of parody it's suddenly been shit all along? Where does that make sense...
As Mr. Chipman put it in a previous video, it's because of cultural entrenchment. Too many would-be rebels have to go the other way to "make a statement". Then there's the part about Whedon being exposed as a serial creep and abuser...
I would like for you to have pointed out that while the MCU does that... it still gets better ratings than the DCU where they don't break the tension and take everything too seriously. So badly that DCU had to try and copy the MCU.
The problem with that kind of thinking is that it gets so laser-focused on a single aspect that it starts suggesting that this one aspect is responsible for everything. Like, the DCEU is hot garbage, but the choice to not have witty quips had *nothing* to do with that. Likewise, while the quips are nice to have and indicative of a particular tone, an MCU without them would still be a functional MCU. The problem is not which side is right; the problem is that the debate itself is hot-nonsense.
That is literally how comic book heroes have talked since the Golden Age...or even the Pulp Age. Star Wars literally lifted it from old serials. Not just serials, it is rampant through pre-Hays Code films. It is how Shakespeare is written!
I'm not a big fan of creators turning their twitter threads into vids, but this really expanded on Bob's original points and was super fun - kudos to you Bob :)
yeah im getting real tired of the " this is marvel humor" when Marvel did not make it and that is not applicable to every movie or game with snark in it
Shit, I played Forspoken, and the only problem I had with the dialogue was that the roaming "random" chats between Frey and the sentient bracelet Cuff were not all that random and were repeating ALL THE TIME regardless of what point of the game you were in. The example for me is anything in the city, you hit a certain point, and the dialogue comes up. And the first time it's fine, it's commentary on the new location. Then you go back to it 15 minutes later and the same dialogue happens. And you think okay? That's weird, but I'm sure that it'll change later on when we come back in the story. No. It does not. You get the same dialogue at the same points every single time. And that's the only problem!
"Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow up question." Damn bob, what a raw line.
Perfect final line
When Mr. Chipman is done, he's done. And I'm right there with him on this.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Too bad he's never done eating, or calling for people to kill themselves on twitter
As I am fond of saying often, this is why MovieBob is MovieBob and everyone else is everyone else.
In other words... Don't ask right wingers stuff. It breaks their brains lol. Granted this can happen with a leftist or dem but let's get real... It TOTALLY happens almost every time whenever you question a right winger.
“Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow-up question.” Is just a great overall statement I need to remember going forward.
That should be a first day lesson for journalists.
Then what is the difference between the buddy cop/action hero dialogue, and this marvel dialogue?
@@danielhuelsman76 nothing that's the point
@@Allieg806 No, it does feel different and I don't know why. And I doubt it's some kind bigotry thing, that explanation feels lazy.
@@danielhuelsman76 ur reasoning or want of there to be is lazy
Since folks have asked, the "Buddy Cop" movies from the montage, in order:
6:05 - DEAD HEAT
6:15 - TANGO & CASH
6:20 - BAD BOYS 2
6:29 - TANGO & CASH (again)
6:41 - KNOCK OFF
7:05 - STONE COLD
Yes! I got them all. (Took me a second to remember knock off, kept thinking of double impact)
I was expecting cuffs "we know he can add and he can subtract, who wants to go next"
Dang! Knock Off eluded me!
Yeah, I thought that last one was Stone Cold. I really should go watch the Rifftrax version of it.
Never heard of the last two. Thanks.
Bob, please keep doing the "There is nothing new under the sun", "What's old is new again" perspective-giving. It's incredibly important to have influencer-types reminding all of us that history didn't begin 5-10 years ago :)
Mitch Hedberg: "Here's a picture of me when I was younger."
"EVERY picture of you is when you were younger!"
Hey, once again: this is why MovieBob is MovieBob, and everyone else is everyone else.
@@thetribunaloftheimaginatio5247 because if it wasn't what it was, it would be what it isn't. But it isn't what it's not, so it is what it is?
@@seanwilkinson7431 LMAO... okay, points for getting a chuckle out of me. >w> But yeah, MovieBob's got the gift of gab and actually knows what he's talking about. Which is why he's openly despised by dingleberries who think he's a Neo-Nazi because he doesn't suffer fools gladly (somehow "I am stuck in traffic and momentarily frustrated with my fellow motorists" translates to "I SUPPORT EUGENICS") and think finding pics of him wearing his Mario or Captain N cosplay is some kind of "gotcha."
In other words, history didn't start when you were born lol.
The guy complaining about Peach being a leader is just the funniest thing. Peach has ran the Mushroom Kingdom since…forever. There’s no king, just her, and she runs the whole place. She was a playable character in the second game, and while that’s arguably canon, she was a fighter in Melee over 20 YEARS AGO. Peach being able to hold her own is nothing new. Yeah, she’s quiet and demure and maybe a little off sometimes, but if you mess with her she will smash your face in with a turnip.
plus they forget that she was a playable character in Super Mario 3-D World
No-one tell them about Metroid - that game from the mid-80s where the badass bounty hunter was a woman all along (except you couldn't tell during the game because of the 8-bit graphics). Or the obscure 1979 movie no-one's ever heard of about a spaceship called the Nostromo...
Clearly these are also products of 2010s wokeness (don't think too hard about the chronology there...)
Yeah it's a stupid complain.
But Ripley wasn't the leader in Alien, well she was when she was the last woman standing 😊
*complaint
🍻
That one actually hurt my brain
Honestly, the fact someone's "red-flag" moment in the Marrio movie trailer was Peach acting assertively is very telling. Seriously, she's the ruler of an entire kingdom, of course she's gonna act like she's in charge, because she is.
The monarchical ruler of a kingdom taking charge of the situation!? WTF is this woke nonsense!?... /s
Yeah right, what are you gonna tell us next? That "ass-kicking authority figure" and "warrior princess" are well-established tropes and having one of the most well-known characters of the franchise just get captured and sit in a dungeon for the entire runtime (like it was in the games that are definitely mostly renowned for their Tolkien-level storytelling) would be incredibly boring and a wasted opportunity? I'll have you know that there's a 4,5 hour long UA-cam video just waiting to tell you how that's actually wrong.
For years, and I do mean for many, many, many fucking years, dudebros would hammer on Peach specifically. The line "put a GPS on this bitch" is so ubiquitous that it's become its own cliché. They hated Peach because she always got kidnapped, despite that 1. Peach isn't kidnapping herself and 2. Everything that happens in every story is decided by the writer, so they aren't mad at Peach they're mad at the writers of Mario games.
But then Gamergate happened and some women had the audacity to tell these shit for brains that it was really weird and off putting that writers in games kept doing this shit, and all of a sudden it is sacrosanct, Peach must always be a meek princess because that's just how women are, nevermind we spent three decades whining about how much we hate when we see women this way.
God. It is tiring and frustrating. I wanna just scream.
@@DerMoerpler also I think the trapped in a dungeon would call up the "sorry Mario, your princess is in another castle" routine. they definitely whine about that.
@@ragnarockerbunny Tiring and frustrating is pretty much Gamergate in a nutshell.
People keep forgetting that “Marvel humor” or that kind of snarky back-and-forth dialogue has been around longer than the MCU, but because the MCU is the most popular thing out there, that’s what it’s called to people with narrow views on media.
Called "Buffyspeak" right before that, and even contributed to by Buffy's creator.
Honestly it is just a modern update of the madcap comedy genre. I think it's a genre that could make a cool modern comeback. We like fast-talking absurd humor.
@@christopherb501 Yep, and what makes it even funnier is that there's a backlash against people thinking Whedon invented it, which of course he didn't but he did put it to good use in Buffy with his own twist. When it comes down to it, it's just a phrase that people use to insult and dismiss the MCU since they don't like it and that's the laziest and easiest way to do it. I always feel like it's ironic being that people who love to bag on the MCU for being unoriginal and repetitive use the most unoriginal and repetitive insults to whine about it. 😁
I called it "Whedon Dialog". Before that, I think "Poochie Dialog" would be the most fitting (that term was'nt used but I think it articulates 90's writing with forced 'attitude' in it). Before that "Buddy Cop Dialog" Before that? Well shit I don't know what life was like before the great biblical flood. 😉
@natf7942 I think a lot of it is the significantly lower reception Phase 4 got. If I'm being honest, phase 4 does'nt really feel like it has the same "magic" to it (not really a criticism as that'd be a silly thing to articulate). Regardless I did enjoy most of it's shows and hope things pick up in phase 5. I think they did loose a significant talent though once James Gunn permenantly departed.
Jeez, I didn't realize until the thumbnail, but... yeah. Talking like a contemporary person and snarking at everyone around you making grand soliloquies is basically Army of Darkness.
horror films in the 80s in general had a lot of that kind of dialogue, it was especially common for slasher-villains to dole out corny one-liners after killing their victims and that's just sort of become an accept part of the genre now, I don't hear anybody calling that MCU-humor when a horror film does that sort of thing.
I know someone who thinks like this and literally had an Army of Darkness poster on his goddamn wall
Except Ash was literaliy mean to be a loser
It's a new version of the _"CalArts"_ perjorative that was aimed at Steven Universe and other shows of its ilk. It's a quick way for bunch of socially insular, overwhelmingly white straight dudes to say the following:
_"This is clearly being made for people in mind that, that in terms of age/ethnicity/gender identity/sexual orientation are not necessarily just like me, and the animation style this show has adopted may inform or be informed by that. Which means I and the people who look and act like me are not the only taste makers in our society, the only arbiters of beauty, professionality, creative expression, _*_and we certainly can't have that."_*
It also smacks of the backlash to the rising popularity of disco music in the late 70s, for really, really similar reasons.
Only, unlike disco, they can't kill it so easy.
I love you literally just admit that the entirety of the CalArts style is literally made to indulge socially inept teenagers that are obnoxiously obsessed with being politically correct. It’s a quick way for people of your ilk to express the following:
*”This was made for people like me and people likeminded to me who suffer from a perpetual victim complex and believes there are Nazis hiding under our beds, and thinks that every person who fits within our description of “marginalized” thinks the same way and follows our overwhelming white liberal savior rhetoric.”*
Youre the kind of person who would eat from a toilet if a billionaire told you straight white guys wouldnt like it. Literally your entire idea of a pejorative is theres this non-existent boogeyman of straight white guys who wont let you watch cartoons for children meant to sell toys… meanwhile, the guys who own the toy companies, who do the marketing, who ghostwrite the scripts, hire the help and who greenlight the shows are all straight white guys
It’s this weird thing of using racism and sexism to justify not having anything made by an auteur. Like to you minorities or women dont want to watch a period drama or a character study or a thriller or an arthouse film instead theyre meant to settle for Marvel movies and reboots of 80s shlock
Literally the definition of “dont ask questions just consume product and get excited for next product”
@@johnathonhaney8291”take that white guys, billionaire corporations are too big to fail!” ?? Arent u guys meant to be left wing? Your politics are just Reaganite yuppie views except you really like video games
“Actually these movies made by and for straight white people to make money for a megacorp are actually queer because the fascist wears a rainbow color”
"Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow up question "
It's amazing how a facade is easily broken when asking simple questions like "why" or "how"
What's funny is, that this also works in reverse. I've had a conversation with someone about the Dr. Seuss books back when they were being b!tched at by the conservatives because they took some books out of print. When he asked the question "well if you take these books down then where does it end?"
I quoted John Oliver and said "Somewhere. It stops somewhere!" I then explained that the issue wasn't a political issue but instead the Dr. Seuss foundation deciding to stop printing some books of their's they no longer wanted to keep printing. He stopped arguing about it at that point because...well, he realized his mistake.
I want to make it clear that he and I were still friends afterwards and he is a smart guy. He just needed to learn to think more critically and to not take ANYTHING on fox news seriously.
It's amazing how little some people think about thinks and will just let other people tell them what to think. Just about any of their arguments can be destroyed the moment they have to think beyond the base level of their arguments and actually realize how shallow their politics are.
Yeah asking a follow-up question if someone makes a bold claim reminds me of something famous apologists Frank Turek once said "It's not your job to refute what they say it's their job to support what they say."
@@dragon1130 Exactly. Like those who blindly oppose criticism of the reason those books were being taken out of print. Thinking that because your friend wasn't clever enough to respond to your gotcha question in 2 seconds somehow that changes the validity of the criticism. It's strange how you think only those who disagree with your groupthink are somehow the ones not thinking for themselves. Almost like you don't think for yourself. Similar to thinking a quote from a UA-camr is some profound revelation simply because you agree with their politics.
The first words you learn as ANY kind of Journalist: "Who, What, Where, Why, When, and How." :)
Except everyone has criticized that dialogue for being hacky, unrealistic and giving every character the same cadence
But hey if you can strawman people as critics you dont have to get a real taste for movies
"You're hit man! You're bleedin'!"
"I ain't got time to bleed."
"Oh... Okay."
...
"You got time to duck?"
-Predator (1987)
“Youre okay with eating shrimp, why arent you okay with eating live slugs?”
"I'm not wearing hockey pads"
- Batman, The Dark Knight, 2008. A DC film. Directed by Christopher Nolan.
“See! Jokes existed in other movies as deiberately comic relief or as a form of camp, so megacorps should be worshipped for doing it now! Eat the sludge bigot!”
Bob, I love you. I think this is one of the best videos you've done.
Also, I miss you talking about videogames.
One thing that I realized it's how far we have come regarding superheroes. In the 80s the only good superhero movies were Donner's Superman and Burton's Batman. Now, not only we have more movies that I could dream of, not only we have whole schedules for upcoming movies, but Marvel has become the stabilshment, the ideal everyone else wants to copy. So, you know what, "marvel humor" is actually a compliment
"In the 80s the only good superhero movies were Donner's Superman and Burton's Batman."
And The Toxic Avenger
I don't think many of them fit what you would expect from comics though
“Marvel humor is actually a compliment” in the same way us imperialism is actually a compliment because it gave us the godzilla movies. Very stupid to praise dumb comic book movies with childish morals becoming the establishment, as if the only good comic book writer warned us that shit is borderline fascistic
It's times like these when I feel I must remind everyone that Macbeth (one of the most famous and serious plays from the English language's most celebrated author) contains a monologue about the porter's whiskey dick.
Romeo and Juliet opens with a 5 minute rape joke
Shakespeare is covered in dick jokes.(because that what got the peasants in the theatre during the plague).
o.o *WHY??*
“You dont understand watching baby movies with superheroes is okay because Shakespeare said fuck”
13:48 "you see Peach just taking charge!" The leader of the Mushroom Kingdom just taking charge?!?! The horror!
My guy if she didnt youd be making video essays called “the rape culture of the mario movie”
I actually laughed at the, kill me now if you're going to be rhyming, nonstop, thing happened. That's great comedic timing.
I think a big problem with this approach to writing is one of "know your audience". If the audience is having more fun with your soliloquizing villain and your played-straight milquetoast everyman, and that is who they are identifying with, then your supposed protagonist whose job is to irritate and defy those characters...is going to irritate the audience.
I, personally, find the dialogue in the game clips shown here to be insufferable. But, then again, I could say the same about the buddy cop clips. I think that was the point.
People that are too quippy for their own good, who act like they're better than everyone around them, and never get taken down a peg are unlikeable. Which is not to say they are bad characters. They just need to bring something to the table that makes it worth it to suffer through their dialogue.
It actually took me watching this video to fully understand why I never liked Axel Foley in Beverly Hills Cop. He is exactly the same type of character!
Forget Star Wars and 80s cop movies. Bond was always quipping, as was Sam Spade, Rick Blane and Philip Marlowe. Shakespeare was shot through with hilarious dialog "No, 'tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church-door, but 'tis enough, 'twill serve. Ask for me to-morrow, and you shall find me a grave man"
Literally "Do you bite your thumb at me sir?"
"I do bite my thumb. But I do not necessarily bite my thumb at thee, sir!"
Fucking hell that was Romeo and Juliet.
Demetrius: Villain, what hast thou done?
Aaron: That which thou canst not undo.
Chiron: Thou hast undone our mother.
Aaron: Villain, I have done thy mother."
From "Titus Andronicus"
-William Shakespeare
@@Gigasius Shakespeare, the originator of "yo momma" jokes.
Many people who bitch about stuff like this today, don't realize that most of it goes back to at least Shakespeare or even earlier. Read Shakespeare, he's awesome.
“You dont understand mom, watching he-man at age 40 is exactly the same as Shakespeare having witty dialogue”
This is like saying that Big Bang Theory and Frasier are the same because they both have out of touch smart people as characters
Great video Bob. Felt very classic Big Picture. I really fight hard to avoid having the memetic pre-baked discussions that ping pong around the internet whenever stuff like this comes up. I am one hundred percent agree with your suggestion that you ask the person you're talking to to drill a little deeper and try to explain what they're really talking about, cuz who knows maybe you'll learn something. And if they don't have anything deeper to discuss you can take that as a good sign that you should maybe talk about something else or exit the conversation.
Nah hes just trying to defend the soulless gruel because he believes marvel disproves the aeuter theory. Jusy like he thought there was a conspiracy against Eternals
"Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud then a follow up question "
That may end up the quote Moviebob is know for.
“The console wars were my personal vietnam”
“Thats a small amount of mcdonalds for an average size person”
“I wish the KKK didnt ruin IQ tests for voting”
Really great piece. You could have gone even farther back... Leslie Charteris was writing "good guy cracks jokes with aplomb under pressure to make the action punchier" into his "Saint" novels in the 1930s, as one example. Almost every "Marvel humor" line you recall could have come from one of those books. Harry Harrison and the Stainless Steel Rat novels also come to mind.
But why fuss over the roots when you can just pretend/lie over what came before? BTW, bonus points for remembering the Saint novels, which I've read a few of myself.
“People were defecting in holes years ago, when they didnt know better, that makes it okay to do now!”
I have to admit, I IMMEDIATELY knew what Bob meant when he brought up "Marvel writing" and "Marvel dialogue", but it is fascinating to actually dissect it and actually unpack what that's even supposed to me. It definitely feels like one of those phrases/terms that everyone is *supposed* to understand what it means, but can't quite define, a kind of "I know it when I see/hear it" sort of thing... of course, everyone has a different idea of what constitutes "Marvel writing"/"Marvel dialogue" and that can get confusing when it comes to saying "this is just like Marvel" and people don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I did see one guy who took issue with the dialogue in Forspoken and said "this is a lot like a Marvel movie, in that the banter is dissolving the tension and making me take this less seriously than I should be", and he's a smart, introspective guy, albeit not a big movie-goer.
Honestly, that Simpsons clip was a good or at least decent summation of what "Marvel dialogue" is, "funny but not too funny banter". I think the problem with Forspoken is that they overdo the banter and it got tiresome, but that's just me.
Edit: 5:36-5:41 Reminds me of that one time someone shared a clip from The Amazing World of Gumball where Gumball "trained in the ways of the social justice warrior" to combat a seemingly overly PC character named Carmen, but *conveniently* cut off the ending to that scene, namely that Carmen "fought back" by (quoting the Wiki summary of what happened here) "calmly but affirmatively tell[ing] Gumball that disguising his selfish desires as concern for others' well-being hurts the causes of legitimate issues". This ends up defeating Gumball, who bemoans how he can't even be mad at her.
Edit2: Changing "Forsaken" to "Forspoken"... which is a dumb name anyway, spelling wrong no less.
Forspoken's problem isn't the banter, at least not from Frey, as Jim Sterling pointed out in their review it's mainly the Cuff that's the problem with his constant sarcasm and all the cliched stock medieval characters who spout dumb crap.
Rubberman did you happen to frequent SMBZ and/or VGLan forums back in the 2000s because I swear I’ve been seeing your comments on random shit for the last 20 years
Damn my boy you really wrote a whole dissertation on this
" Marvel dialogue " to me is when the dialogue is written in a way that someone who has only seen how people interact from third person would write.
Like as if saying, "I'm sure this is how humans interact."
It's so damn dumb, this "Marvel writing". I'm going through the Buck Rogers series on Tubi right now. And honestly our title character speaks lines like Ryan Reynolds in Deadpool and has attitude like Brie Larson in Captain Marvel. And THAT series was late 1970s.
"wHy Is ThErE eVeN aN oBeSe PeRsOn In MeDiEvAl TiMeS"|
She's a librarian who lives in the castle.
My guy you are the people who said video game women had to look realistic when theyre flying around in space shooting badgers at people
When Legend of Korra came out a similar thing happened to it that’s happening with Forspoken now. A lot of people were like “I don’t like Korra I think she’s annoying” they could never really explain why and they could never admit that they just didn’t like a young woman with power going around doing her own thing.
I liked Korra for being a successful avatar in the ring, but not on the stage and struggle with that. But Season 2 really made it hard to watch her. Yes, there decision and reaction may make sense in context, but it just wasn't fun to watch such a character.
I like Korra both as a character and as a series, but I kinda liked Avatar more, not sure if it was just more of the same. Don't get me wrong, it was great, but not as great as Avatar.
The wildest thing is that Korra was supposed to be annoying in the first season. She's a foil for spiritual Aang, a hot headed avatar for whom all of her bending came naturally and so she has a chip on her shoulder. There's plenty of issues with LoK but Korra's character arc is one of the best parts.
I think that had more to do with the fact that the writers literally had the character say, "I'm the Avatar! And there's nothing you can do about it!"
Like on the first watchthrough I just saw that as her being a negotistical little shit of a child, but I can see how old fans took umbrage with it, because it is literally using your character as a mouthpiece and antagonizing old fans for no reason.
@@celestine1149 Yeah this was my takeaway from the shows. I like the original series better as a whole, but Korra is one of the most well-realized and interesting characters in the greater Avatar canon and a more compelling protagonist than Aang.
I wrote a paper on State & Main in university! Excellent movie and hugely overlooked, arguably even more relevant today than it was 20 years ago and a fantastic performance from Hoffman
How so?
I still crack up at the product placement solution.
Killer closing line Bob. Love to see The Big Picture back in action
It was literally a reddit quip which meant nothing and anyone who has ever criticized marvel dialogue has pretty solid critiques which he doesnt understand, after all this is the guy who thought the Covenant were the good guys for having diverse slaves
I thought you were gonna go back to the grandfather of all witty one-liners and shrug-off’er of serious situations, 007 himself. He, whom without, we wouldn’t have the revived one man action-hero in the 80s that split into two for the “buddy cop” nonsense. Great commentary
Very much the modern action hero template...and you can trace HIM back to Cary Grant's misidentified "spy" in Hitchcock's North By Northwest.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who remembers when Marvel humor/buddy cop dialogue was called the Bond one-liner
@@cyclone313 😄 just sayin'
Ah yes James Bond films famous for their uncontroversial nature and well-received scriptwriting
"Peach just taking charge!" well she is the monarch.
In all honesty, those clips from forspoken made me want to play it more than any of the marketing I've seen. That style of dialogue is my jam.
You are the worst kind of person
The wisecracking know it all guy was a staple of movies and comedies back in the 1930's and 40's. Bogart did it, the Marx Brothers did it, WC Fields did it. They used the style when Hollywood made training films for GI's in WWII. Even a general in WWII did it, that's Nuts !!!
Was literally just thinking of the Groucho Marx when he as giving examples. Dude couldn't stay quiet for moment, always cracking off asides or rapid fire digs at his adversaries. And, of course, you've got the Loony Toons popping up variations on "Screwy, ain't it?" signs to the audience. FFS, some the best bits of Casablanca are Renault's cheerful apathy and Rick's dry, too cool for school rejoinders.
@@steampunker7 And then you've got the nonstop Wit Olympics that was The Big Sleep with Bogie and Bacall. Fave line from that one: "My, my, my, such a lot of guns around town and so few brains."
"I'm shocked, shocked that there's gambling going on at this establishment!"
[gets handed his winnings] would be eaten alive as "Marvel Humor" by grifters online today
Wait comedians made jokes? Well i guess that makes shitty marvel writing where everyone talks the same and fights a big dumb lazer in the end okay
Honestly, I have been loving Forspoken. Their are plenty of serious moments to balance out the quippy stuff. I love the part where Frey is mentally dealing with the fact that she basically murdered a person after the first Tanta boss battle.
I have to wonder if the people complaining about the D&D movie being too quippy have actually played a tabletop RPG.
Quips abound in that realm.
Well to be fair. It didn't work out well for the first D&D movie. It would be like Chris Pratts Mario is a normal live action human who gets sent to a post apocalyptic alternate dimension because of a rock in Manhattan.
@@AllyMonsters Oh, that first film had WAY bigger problems than dialogue.
@@johnathonhaney8291 It had 99 problems, but Jeremy Irons isn't one.
@@AllyMonsters Eh, yeah, the way he was devouring all available scenery, he absolutely was.
Yes i cant believe people who watched a movie didnt praise it for accurately portraying mediocre writing
7:00: I'm a tiny bit surprised you didn't throw in a clip from the short-lived TV comedy series _Sledge Hammer,_ which took exactly that set of tropes and ran with it.
I do love how you are able to put so many things into perspective like this. What I will add here is that my first exposure to this sort of dialogue was in a book series I started reading in 1992... the first book of which was published in *1982* . It was Pawn of Prophecy by David (& Leigh) Eddings, the first of 12 books in two connected book series with two additional spin-off novels; the final book was released in 1997 (and, again, the first book was published in '82). Those books, and most of the other novels Eddings wrote, had that quick banter, wisecracking heroes, snappy dialogue, etc etc (though not "Buffy Speak", which as with many things is actually a *very specific* trope).
There is a French Graphic novel series, Black Moon Chronicles, from the late 80's where everything is hyper-epic, but the main characters all talk French popular slang and street talk. It's kinda cool, but when you have a fantasy series where battles involve millions, and everything is grander than grand it kinda feels like a cheap gimmick after a while, especially when the writer made several other series that are all done the same way, funny popular characters in a massive epic setting.
During that montage of “anti-woke” loudmouths at the end, I could feel my brain melting.
Thanks for the early heads up. Saved us some pain.
Its almost like its a propaganda technique to associate criticism of corporations with people you hate and politically disagree with
Hot damn, this is an insightful episode! It probably explains why I've never considered "this is Marvel writing" as decent criticism ever. I grew up with Schwarzenegger un-ironically making terrible lines after every kill or action beat.
The one in Commando "Let off some steam" kind of sums it up, doesn't it?
"I lied" best line.
"Stick around."
Those films were never lauded for their writing. They were cheesy so bad its good films
As one of the six people whose played Forspoken, I can confirm that discourse around the dialog is way overblown. But that's what Twitter does I guess.
Anyone reading this comment go look up “oneyplays predicting forespoken”
Wow, that dude talking about everyone being ugly is a piece of work. So apparently, fhe only like games where even the archivist NPC is designed to sexually aroused him. Good lord. (And let's not even get into how totally fine that character design is, and how completely off-base he is calling it ugly and unrealistic)
You will find, my friend, that this type is really just acting out because the world around them refuses to validate their self-image.
It also shows how stupid these people are, as they think that a librarian in "medieval times" would be "poor". Which... no. Taking care of books and records is like really important. You don't just grab somebody off the streets to do it, *especially* at a time when literacy wasn't common-place.
@@johnathonhaney8291its weird how it’s become left wing now to praise corporations for including fat people as characters, when they literally put the shit in your food that makes it addictive and fattening
But hey gotta get mad at guys for not liking fat people in video games(?) rather than getting mad at childhood obesity or the fact corporations throw out tons of food instead of giving it to the homeless
@johnathonhaney8291 ah, i guess you thought the same when feminists were hating on DoA for portraying body types they didnt like?
On the origins of humor in the modern Marvel film, Jon Favreau had said it was the reverse of what he experienced working on Elf. On that movie, every last joke was scrutinized during production, but because they weren't paying as much attention to the action he could pretty much stage those sequences however he wanted. In Iron Man's case, the action beats are what got the focus from upstairs, and the freedom on his end was in the comedy.
Yeah, funny how Favreau never gets any heat over all but inventing the Marvel template. Not he ever deserved such, but...
14:24 In what world is that librarian "morbidly obese"? That's not even obese, that's just thicc.
^ coomer moment
It's not even medieval times, it's another dimension.
Porn-addict term
The line in forspoken where she says "if youre gonna rhyme just kill me now" was legit funny.
The problem is these games have SO MUCH GAME and thus SO MUCH DIALOGUE and it's hard to write that much good dialogue unless you're the people that wrote Disco Elysium or like Planescape Torment.
I don't know about the "so much game."
Didn't really look like there was a whole lot of game.
@@bazzfromthebackground3696
Well, the microbrains that are showing you clips of dialogue are pretty much forced to only show cut scenes instead of gameplay, right.
Even in those examples, the dialog was still a bit too heavy. I know I'm in the minority here but I don't think Torment was that great. I don't think it's bad, just not that great. There was too much exposition. I get why, but it felt less like a series of words and sentences meant to immerse me in the universe and more like an over enthusastic DM proud of their lore and is damn sure gonna make you hear it no matter how long it takes. That or an insidious hydra like monster made of letters and words that exponentially grows more dialog arms and tenticles everytime you clicked on one.
I think the best example of good well-balanced dialog comes from Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (simply mentioning that game causes 1 out of every 5 people who read this to reinstall that game but, I digress...). The dialog got the point across without being too heavy or too much, had a great balance of levity and seriousness, and flavored the world you were in perfectly. Other great examples of dialog in gaming include Wastelands III and Bioshock.
I like the dialogue in "Forspoken." Yeah, most of the people with a problem with this game have a problem with it... because that dialogue is being delivered by a sassy, streetwise woman of color. Let's not pretend that racism isn't a factor here... most of the noise in "pop-culture discourse" is coming from uncouth loudmouths pining for the days when entertainment was made by and for white people, because "Old Black Joe needs to go back to picking cotton for my best girl's ribbons and bows."
And it's idiotic. Representation matters, regardless of what some sad beardo or money-grubbing Channer-Scum jackass working for Geeks & Gamers has to say on the subject. Which is why Bob is right... Watch More Things.
@@alnu8355 Ps:T wasn't for everyone as it's... As I phrase it, my favorite novel to play through. And that's... Just how it is. Less gameplay, more just... Reading. A novel with some gameplay bits. 😂 So of course, not for everyone, it's just about looking at it through the right lens to see it's greatness I guess, and knowing it won't be for everyone.
I avoid the types of critics that Bob likes to prop up as examples of this specific brand of terrible. Watching even the short clips he includes instinctively makes me want to run for the hills. But I appreciate him showing them all the same. It keeps me current and gives me perspective and an... unfortunate knowledge that such individuals exist, make content, and have audiences.
Call me stupid or whatever but I kinda liked the Forspoken dialogue you played there. It wasn't amazing or anything but it made me smile.
Neither better nor worse than your average game dialogue...and seriously, at least it was self-aware.
Same here. Obviously hard to tell without proper context, but it reminded me a tiny bit of the snarkiness from Portal.
The people in this comment section praising forespoken are proof that the kind of morons still impressed by these cliches DO exist
Really good video! I found this video in a Twitter thread and now I've subscribed.
Which one. Might've seen it.
Wow whoever recommended him to you is a moron
The majority of internet ‘conversation’ about things seems to be first and foremost a peremptory shield against having to actually engage. People use veils of objectivity like obsessing over whether adaptions are tick-box accurate instead of actually good, or language that is entirely dismissive without context. It means you get to have your little hot take to prove you’re relevant without the risk of actually exposing it to any form of critique or analysis.
“That sucks.”
“Have you seen it/heard it/played it?”
“No.”
Yeah, about those tick box accurate adaptations...I've come to the conclusion that most of those are BORING. I used to love Sin City and Watchmen for how much they nailed the original material. Then I realized that I could have just reread the material and got the same experience. Unless you're bringing something new, you're wasting everyone's time.
There's also too much media out but more opinions than water on the planet and there's too much to form an opinion for your own, so you just take someone elses word for it
@@johnathonhaney8291 Hard disagree.
@@breadordecide Noted...and discounted. Do a better job with your arguments if you wish to be taken seriously.
Also…the words “so that happened” HAVE LITERALLY NEVER BEEN SAID IN THE MCU
But like... MCU bad.
For real though, it's hilarious when people want to hate on it so much they literally make up what they think it did and has no basis in fact. But then if you try to point that out you're an MCU shill. Anything said in even slight defence of the MCU is seen as instantly losing to these people. Imagine if they just went and enjoyed what they like instead of spending so much time crapping on what they don't. But then again, they couldn't be smugly condescending in order to feel superior if they did that.
Pretty sure it was used in Big Bang Theory and Gotham, but yeah can't recall the joke in a MCU movie.
@@natf7942 Hell, I'm ride or die MCU, so it's not that much an insult. And I've probably watched more movies from more eras than those oh-so-serious dummies ever knew existed.
i prefer a "so that happened", than a "we live in a society". If you have nothing to say, at least try to have some fun.
@@natf7942”just let people enjoy things that force other movies out of cinemas and promotes the military industrial complex”
As someone that didn't follow forspoken whatsoever beyond knowing it existed and was announced years back I'm certainly curious about it now weirdly cause the dialogue doesn't look that far off from how I talk with friends
Honestly yeah. It was pretty down right modern. Like I could see one of my students just talking like that
This was one of the best one of these in a while, Bob
I wouldn't be surprised if Forespoken ends up getting a small, but dedicated fanbase that realy likes the game's vibe and the things it does well, a bit like Days Gone or Sunset Overdrive.
The very definition of a cult classic AKA the thing you love for itself instead of using it to clout-chase. Remedy Entertainment has built its rep and studio on such games (funny how no one ever bitched about Control being initially a commercial flop despite it being a wonderfully mindbending game).
Days Gone is a masterpiece. I've said it when it was released and the critique was "it's just another buggy zombie game bla bla bla" (and yeah, it was buggy on release, but it got patched very fast), and I'll say it again after a few playthroughs I did over the years. I even started a new playthrough a couple of weeks ago, didn't get very far, but even staring it felt great. I love the characters, the setting, the story, the gameplay - everything in it just worked for me.
I might try Forspoken when it'll be on discount. So far, it doesn't look like something I'd pay a full price for.
It didnt lmao
@maydaymemer4660 indeed it did not
I love your work Bob, it's been a genuine pleasure to watch it grow from it's early roots to what it is today. Even, thoughtful, and insightful critique of popular culture is a dying artform and you are one of it's last practitioners.
So...people are turned off by the idea of fantasy characters spitting modern sounding quips while they are in a serious/dangerous situation...
In a d&d movie.
Tell me you k ow nothing about dnd without telling me you know nothing about dnd.
Also, I had no idea forspoken was a singleplayer fantasy adventure game about a modern person stuck in a fantasy realm, havig known that i would have checked it out before, thank you bob!
I gotta say, the clips have made me interested in the game. Too bad I don't have the system for it.
Exactly!
Its ironic even your defense of dnd writing includes a hackneyed meme line delivered badly. If its based on real life to have a dnd movie have crappy writing (which i liked that movie btw so i disagree with the assessment) shouldnt the dnd people also be four fat racists eating pizza the whole time and then going home early when one of them has an argument over dice fudging?
First off, I have gotten so sick of people whining about the MCu in general that I've come to actually take pleasure in watching people get upset about it.
Secondly, anyone who thinks that kind of witty dialogue is linked exclusively with the MCU has never seen:
The West Wing
Babylon 5
Justice League: TAS or Justice League Unlimited
Much of Star Trek: DS9
Star Trek: The one with the whales
Demolition Man
Robocop
Even Star Wars (1977) largely incorporated into the script. "Boring conversation anyways" ring any bells?
Oh wow literally the only thing you cited that wasnt lowbrow genre fiction is west wing, famously just a capeshit version of a political show. Do you watch any real shows?
@@maydaymemer4660 If your going to troll just to insult someone use your big boy voice and do it directly.
That Han Solo scene in the Detention Area is literally the origin of all of it. It's amazing these idiots don't acknowledge it.
“Its amazing these idiots dont want every film to be written like one scene from a cheesy 70s movie credited with ending the auteur era of filmmaking”
Maybe it’s because it’s in clip form, but the Forsaken dialogue sounds fine to me. The only complaint I have is what I think is the mic.
As I've said once before, you're one of the good guys we need, Bob.
A true hero making dumb arguments on the internet for views
The guy who wants to genocide the working class?
I figured the problem with the Forspoken dialogue was that it sounds like it was recorded during Covid from bad home studios
And it probably was, given the timetable for games like this.
nice to have a soild analytical piece with a banger of a closing line like that. it's been a while since you've made one of those. I remember the first few times I saw big picture videos like this I said "OOOOOOOOHH" out loud in a library at the end. been hooked on your stuff ever since. keep it up!
Bob thanks for delving into this kind of stuff so I don't have too. It's good to be aware of whatever new pop culture/ 'culture war' bs is bubbling up but my mental state would not survive having to follow all this noise
The descriptor "Marvel Dialogue" more and more feels like the new "Cal Arts Style."
I had that thought! It sounds very similar to that! It's like, guys, please think a bit more about these things and put more effort instead of parroting someone else.
@@katherinealvarez9216 That would require work none of these lazy assholes want to put in.
“Dont consume product” and “dont consume product” both tell me not to consume product, so me no like! -you regards
loved the last part about the follow up question, always on point
I do wonder if this backlash against every kind of humor being “MCU humor” is gonna lead to studios going too far in the other direction and having a bunch of joyless self-serious movies/games/shows and then these same people are gonna be bitching about that. It’s annoying because there is a legit critique to be made of the MCU’s use of bathos but like pretty much every other legit critique of the MCU (propaganda, formula etc.), the impact on the films themselves is MASSIVELY overstated online because “ popular thing bad”
Id love a film to have no jokes for once
As far as I see it. The whole witty/jokey dialog in action films originates from Die Hard. A film that's.....checks notes.... widely regarded as one of the best action films of all time.
And half the time he’s talking to himself.
plenty of action films before Die Hard had that kind of dialogue, Lethal Weapon comes to mind and 48 Hrs.
@@jadedheartsz Indeed, you can trace snappy dialogue like that to the start of the sound era. Hell, watch the Bogie/Bacall version of The Big Sleep for a prime example.
The Thin Man series was hinged on the lead couple Nick & Norah Charles bouncing dialogue off each other and downing booze like there was no tomorrow. Sure there was a mystery but they and the audience hardly cared about that. It wasn't the focus and rightly so
“Erm yea, like checks notes, die hard exists so erm thats a thing and like die hard is awesome is like bacon and narwals so erm every movie should be like that and stuff” you say before vomitting on a garbage can in order to eat the chocolate bar hidden inside a diaper like a fly
'Nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow-up question.'
I want to macrame' this onto a pillow.
Along with “console wars were my personal vietnam”?
So what I'm hearing is, this is the new permutation of 'CaLaRtS sTyLe' emptyheadedness
Yep...because once again the angry nerds don't understand why they're not part of the cool kid set. If you're a Gen Xer, it's doubly embarrassing if you're acting like this.
@@johnathonhaney8291cool kids are not watching cartoons
Its amazing that people can have such low standards that saying “hey maybe we should include different artstyles instead of making everything as cheap as possible factory produce” is seen as this weird right wing attitude. Like so would you only ever want to go to an art gallery with one kind of impressionist?
*THANK YOU* for pointing out how this *exact same criticism* was being leveled at Forspoken and the D&D movie trailer. Because I swear, the _exact_ crowd looking at the Forspoken trailer and going, "I don't get it. What's the problem?" were the _same people_ complaining about the D&D trailer. I get not liking that kind of writing, but if so, at least be fair when you complain about it.
Also, thanks for the _multitude_ of examples of this type of writing pre-dating the MCU and Wheedon. Feel like I should drop the clip from Star Wars into the next discussion about this kind of writing.
Hint: Star Wars 77 is REALLY badly written
Other hint: Forespoken sucks and is really cliched. Look up a playthru
Also, loved seeing Big Trouble in Little China. I think there were some scenes from Tango and Cash, and other jewels from the 80s
Favorite line from Big Trouble In Little China: "Son of a bitch must pay." Assholes would probably call THAT "Marvel writing" now.
This was the first time I've heard of it....and her lines are pretty good actually! "If you're going to rhyme just kill me now" haha, that was good.
They modernized the dialogue and made it more realistic. Take it or leave it. There are countless games in the world, it's OK to not like every single one.
Yeah, I found myself chuckling at the dialogue snippets used in the video, too. From what I understand, having not played the game myself, is that the game has much worse issues than the voice acting which is damaging it’s sales.
there's like one bit of cringe-worthy dialogue I've seen from the clips going around, and it's the one where she gets her powers but like even then it's not that bad lol. The rest of the protagonist's performance is just like, good. Solid delivery, a good back and forth with the cuff/magic thing, etc.
“Realistic”
@joshuaclare4860 if you and the other comments had their way writing would be so bad
Damn, that pundit compilation cost me braincells.
Well, Bob, I had already noticed pretty much everything you point out, but you put it better than I ever could, so I will just quote Lando Mort:
"THANK YOU!"
Now you get to consume product without thinking about it
I've known, for most of my life, that there will be legions of people out there who will band together and look down upon this or that piece of media and will be more than willing to heap mockery upon those who enjoy it. They will have this mindset of "it's wrong to enjoy this thing and there's something wrong with you if you do", and after a while it just got tiresome. And from what Bob's telling us here, that sentiment has not only persistent, but become more entrenched, more venomous as time has gone on. It's not ideal, to put it mildly, but to any who read this comment, I say this to you. Like what you like. If something brings you joy to read or watch or play, then enjoy it. Life's too short to waste over worrying what a bunch of strangers think about your tastes 😊
Being able to look those people in the eye, tell them "fuck you" at the top of your lungs and carry on loving it anyway without a thought towards whether it makes you cool or not...THAT is what OG nerds were about.
I wish I could recommend this +1000 times. You are exactly right.
You say that but then if you dont write like this your product doesnt get made. This isnt an equal playing field
“ a character study about a gen xer and a younger person and how their upbringings have given them different attitudes” is more likely to go direct to streaming or a limited release than “guy in tights fights other guy in tights”
NGL, I mostly clicked on this video because Jack Burton was in the thumbnail and Big Trouble in Little China is my favorite movie ever.
You have excellent taste.
(15:57) Some people don't want to have conversations; they just want to be agreed with because that feels good. It's extremely frustrating when **any** response other than "here's your participation trophy for repeating the latest slogan!" is treated as a personal attack.
For example. I would love to have a discussion about Ant-Man Quantumania. I'm an easy lay for comic book silliness and I think it looks fun, but I also recognize there's criticisms to be had regarding Marvel, Disney, and the MCU Machine. Problem is that 5 seconds after the 1st trailer dropped, everyone and their dog decided "Quantumania=Shark Boy and Lava girl" and every single attempt to have any kind of dialogue, positive or negative, went right down the damn toilet.
Which is the opposite of being a true nerd, really. You love the thing for its own sake, NOT to accumulate social currency so you can stay with your in-group. You're that weak when it comes to defending what you love, then you're not worth listening to.
Except this video is in itself a thought terminating cliche: youre NOT allowed to make fun of the shitty dialogue without having a conversation, but I can call you an istphobezi for not consuming my product
Oh God, just about everything Rob Snyder has ever said in a movie could be considered "Marvel Humor". He's like the personification of this phenomenon!
Yes, he would fit right into Thor Love And Thunder.
Oh my gosh, that Simpsons clip sounds like the writers are just jealous that Marvel comedy is funnier than them now.
Low bar
Really great! :) I've really been missing these deeper analysis videos. Really interesting. Thanks.
So happy to have you back, Bob
I think of it as 'The Thin Man humour"
Humorless children get angry and demonize things that aren't dark enough for them. Unfortunately that isn't new at all but I suppose they are particularly threatened by Marvel because people are enjoying those movies and they aren't cynical or at someone's expense. That really makes the edgy darker-than-thou types angry.
“people are enjoying” lmaoo they bombed really badly
“At someone’s expense” they are literally pro-corporate pro-military propaganda funded by the pentagon. The villains are always anti-government (Killmonger) or anti-corporate (Whiplash, Mysterio) in some way
Have people ever been at an actual high pressure situation in a team? Honestly, if you are not joking around and doing banther, you are having a meltdown. Which one do you prefer to see in movies? You know, the big medium that's supposed to entertain us.
I’d rather have a movie that’s yknow intelligent and unrealistic over “hey look they were a team and beat the bad guys” ANY day
"Cause nothing exposes the empty head of a fraud like a follow-up question" Perfect 👍😂🤣
For real I'm glad someone else said this because it's been bothering me with how vague and lazy a hand wave criticism it is.
As a theatre kid all grown up, its wonderful to see someone acknowledge David Mamet, both for his work, and for being a *real piece of work.*
Theatre is certainly where the shittiest writing can get the most accolades
Amazing closing line- seems like you're getting back in the swing of things so please keep it up
I like Marvel dialog so believe me when I say the examples of dialog you provided in the middle of the video all served a utilitarian purpose in conveying the story. None of those jokes were their for the sole purpose of being jokes.
Just would like to say "They fly now?" isn't even in the top 20 of things wrong with The Rise of Skywalker.
Nailed it Bob!
I was sort of surprised that Forspoken wasn't getting a huge 'women and black people are bad' type of discourse but then it became "Forspoken is the worse thing to ever exist, don't buy it and I hope it fails'. Ohh there it is, like Bob said, it ends up just being a read between the lines type of thing.
I rarely see such anger spewed at a game because it's just so average and needs some optimization patches.
I liked the comparison to Uncharted, that's a game that never hooked me because I just don't find Nathan Drake interesting, so I don't care about his adventure. I think a lot of gamers are experiencing a game with story and characters that they just don't have much empathy for, so the smallest slight or inconvenience from the game feels 10x worse to them. So many reviews call Frey unlikable...which feels like a very individual subjective interpretation that a lot of reviews latched onto as being an objective fact for some reason.
“Ummm actually one of the most popular narrative games ever, literally WRITTEN by a woman, is bad because it’s a white man in it. Oh this game has shitty writing? Written by a bunch of old japanese men? Oh it’s because theres a black woman in it, any criticism of corpo slop is corporate language tor black hatred. Because corporations love black people clearly and now i must defend corporations”
My guy, youd relate more to the cast of Uncharted than fucking Frey or whatever. Because Drake is a character written not to be relatable but to be flawed and a bit unrealistic, because he is contrasted by a different cast of people of all different races and genders who develop him
Gamers arent going “ew black woman i cant relate”, they fucking play as blue hedgehogs and purple dragons. It just wasnt a very good game, and your willingness to play identity politics about two sets of games you have NEVER played is more ignorant than people dismissing it because the dialogue is terrible
Surely James Bond's one liners predate most of those buddy movies and Star Wars though, right?
By twenty years, yes.
And people complained about Bond dialogue being used in say Doctor Who
Turns out “doing the thing” years ago doesnt make it good when you repeat it, in fact that makes it worse because youre repeating an old bit
I recall an episode of the Simpsons from way before the MCU where Sideshow Bob threatens to nuke Spingfield over this kind of content.
"I'm gonna haul ass to Lollapolooza!"
@@Cursed_Mark Here we go again!
Everyone loved Whedon's banter in Firefly, Avengers 1 and 2, etc.. But now that others copied his style to the point of parody it's suddenly been shit all along? Where does that make sense...
As Mr. Chipman put it in a previous video, it's because of cultural entrenchment. Too many would-be rebels have to go the other way to "make a statement". Then there's the part about Whedon being exposed as a serial creep and abuser...
I'll be honest, I thought the "Well that happened" line was actually older than that. But then again, I'm also pretty sarcastic in general...
I would like for you to have pointed out that while the MCU does that... it still gets better ratings than the DCU where they don't break the tension and take everything too seriously. So badly that DCU had to try and copy the MCU.
The problem with that kind of thinking is that it gets so laser-focused on a single aspect that it starts suggesting that this one aspect is responsible for everything. Like, the DCEU is hot garbage, but the choice to not have witty quips had *nothing* to do with that. Likewise, while the quips are nice to have and indicative of a particular tone, an MCU without them would still be a functional MCU.
The problem is not which side is right; the problem is that the debate itself is hot-nonsense.
That is literally how comic book heroes have talked since the Golden Age...or even the Pulp Age. Star Wars literally lifted it from old serials. Not just serials, it is rampant through pre-Hays Code films.
It is how Shakespeare is written!
"Lord, what fools these Mortals be..." Puck as "MCU character"... /s( I agree by the by; just that aside came to mind, and yeah...)
I'm not a big fan of creators turning their twitter threads into vids, but this really expanded on Bob's original points and was super fun - kudos to you Bob :)
Now, THERE"S the Bob I fell in love with 14 years ago. Awesome to see you firing on all cylinders man!
Welcome back, Snarky Bob. You've Been missed, friend.
yeah im getting real tired of the " this is marvel humor" when Marvel did not make it and that is not applicable to every movie or game with snark in it
Thank you bob. I have been trying to tell people that Marvel Speak is just Star Wars dialog for years
And Star Wars dialogue is known for not being very good
Once again Bobs video can be summed up as “there is nothing new under the sun”
This video needs to be required viewing for all the chuckleheads in the business of having Opinions on the Internet.
“No you dont understand, my unfunny reddit humor in cartoon superhero slop is good because a fat guy said so!”
I miss the days when Cathode Ray Tubes were the standard in television construction. That was back when that was the only meaning of CRT.
Shit, I played Forspoken, and the only problem I had with the dialogue was that the roaming "random" chats between Frey and the sentient bracelet Cuff were not all that random and were repeating ALL THE TIME regardless of what point of the game you were in.
The example for me is anything in the city, you hit a certain point, and the dialogue comes up. And the first time it's fine, it's commentary on the new location. Then you go back to it 15 minutes later and the same dialogue happens. And you think okay? That's weird, but I'm sure that it'll change later on when we come back in the story. No. It does not. You get the same dialogue at the same points every single time. And that's the only problem!