When you "know a bit" of live sound but don't have the exposure and experience of a pro background, this video is excellent. No waffle and fancy graphics, just straight to the point with the knowledge, practical info and camera shots to let you learn how to EQ a room using real equipment. Applicable to analogue and digital console workflows alike. Excellent, thank you!
Thanks for the comment - I ring out the mic from the mixer, then put it back onto the stage and double check that it a) sounds good and b) the cut frequencies make sense. I've done this technique from San Diego to Atlanta, Toronto to Vancouver, many places in between, and it just always works.
Hi! Gain staging is as follows: 1) master a `0dB``, 2) channel fader at +5dB, 3) channel gain (`trim`) raised until feedback, then feedback taken out, then raised a little more until loud and stable - channel gains end up between 11 and 1 o`clock. 4) BUT, the amps should be at unity as well - usually 75-100% up, close to the loudest position (if speakers are a good match). Cheers!
As a DJ turned television sound mixer for the past 20 years, I loved your video! I don't have a 'technical' degree in sound, but use my ears. I also playback the airchecks of bands I mix and learn from what I did right and wrong, and go from there. Subscribed to your channel! .
Thanks for commenting - I hear you, and I have done it with a reference CD first, then ringing out, and the ringing out followed by the CD, and, aside from some minor EQ adjustments, it stays the same. The CD is a good reference (I use Underwold's Beaucoup Fish, tracks 2 and 3), but since it is a direct signal, I rely on the ring-out mainly. I never have major problems. But, sometimes a vocalist with a weird voice must be EQ'd differently, so my procedure is a really good starting point.
Thanks for the comment! BTW, tapping a dynamic mic won't do any damage. I wouldn't tap a ribbon mic, or some condensers, but a 58, no probs, it can handle it. I've seen 58's dropped, thrown, smacked, kicked, the list goes on - never anything but a dent on the grill. Also, just to clarify, I only ring out from the front of house, then I open up a lead singer channel at the stage, with the same settings as the test mic, then double and triple check it. Thanks again! Cheers!
I appreciate your comment. I used to do it from the stage and run back to the board to adjust. Now I do it in front of the board, then double check the settings from the stage - never fails. I have set up and mixed over 4,000 shows, trust me, it works. Since the 58 is a cardioid, the off-axis rejection is simply that. The important part is double checking from the stage. I actually set up an open channel just like the test channel, with system on, and plug the mic in - works!
Thanks for the comment! When a slider does not ring, I mostly leave it at 0dB. I cut the feedback sliders maybe 5-6dB. I try to keep everything as close to the 0dB line as possible. I cut only what's needed to preserve the amplitude, as too much cutting reduces overall level, the I have to make up the gain with the main level control. Things do vary, though, due to crowd size, unique vocal tones, 'on the fly' adjustments, etc.
but isnt it going to be different with different vocalists and microphones? and different speaking locations? how does this contribute to overall good sound on a master bus? how does listening to a reference track in the venue play into this?
It doesn't change that much with different vocals, but it does assume the standard, high quality vocal mic types such as the 58, OM5, e835, which are all pretty flat between 100 and 1kHz. I've tried it in many different rooms on many different types of PA's, and get similar results. Reference tracks also sound pretty good with the EQ setting. I do tweak each instrument on their own channels when needed, though. Cheers!
@@bacontrees would you ever use multiple mics to ring out the room on the graphic eq, or always just a single central vocal mic? what if a band had two vocalists?
@eaMusIk2008 - Hi and thanks for the comment!! You can use a single EQ for both channels if the system is in mono - the system shown is wired for stereo, so we have a dual-31 band EQ, but it used to be in mono, so the system used to be EQ'd with a single EQ. The mic used is an SM58 - which is a good reference mic to use for the whole system, if that is the mic used for the vocals on stage. Each individual mic on stage should be EQ'd further with their channel strip. Hope this helps!
@sajtoscsoda - I also used "Good evening Toronto", "Dog", "Check", "Toronto", "Pssst" and some random phrases to get an overall balance. "Ahh" sounds are good for hearing boxy sounds ('dog', 'walk'), "Pssst" is good for highs, and "Annoying" is good for UA-camrs who can't stand to see someone go out of their way to show someone how to do a ring-out properly.
Hi again, once I establish a 'fairly hot' mic trim (based on 0dB Mst, +5dB Ch), which is usually between 11 and 1 o'clock (based on amps being near full volume), I push the sliders up 3 to 4 dB, because, yes, any frequency will feed back when pushed too loud. I listen for the first ones to ring. If a slider doesn't ring, I leave it at 0dB. After ringing, I scoop out the garbage (as shown). For the maximizer, I would ring out with it as it would be used (show-ready settings).
I didn't see this post until now - in response, I push each slider up maybe 4-5 dB, because you are right, any frequency could feed back when pushed up high enough. If they are stable when pushed up, I leave them alone (assuming the amps are at unity gain and the console has a sensible gain structure). Cheers!
1) I balance the system with amp and/or x-over controls, I tune/ring out with a main EQ, then fine tune each instrument with channel EQ. During a show, I may need to tweak the main EQ depending on the situation. 2) I face the monitors toward the FOH mixing console, then ring them out just like the mains. I put them back as wedges on stage and double check the quality. I used to run back and forth from the stage to make adjustments, but I've been doing this way since - same results. Cheers!
I roll-off the monitors from 40Hz down as a precaution, set up just like the HPF. It works. I create a softer low-mid sound by dipping the lower mids, but not all equal - the centre frequency is the most cut, ie; the one with the most problems.The phase is clean, especially with Ashley EQ's. It all just works for me - sounds great, lot's of level, no distortion. But, we all have our ways of getting loud, clean sound. Cheers!
Interesting forum online says: "When tuning instruments, a guideline of “A440” or 441, or whatever is agreed to by the musicians as a starting point. That type of consensus has not been universally agreed to by sound engineers, not by a long shot." and "There are many valid approaches to room EQ. Not providing a main EQ to a band engineer is about like saying to him that there is only one “correct” way to do his job." Food for thought.
+bacontrees My favorite way to "tune" a room by ear is to use a reference CD on an old fashioned CD player. Whatever you like, that you think is well mixed, well engineered and well mastered. Preferably something that matches the style of music that will be played during the gig. Plug a good pair of headphones directly into the CD player. Headphones on / headphones off / tune / rinse / lather /repeat. Get the room to sound as close to what you hear in the headphones as you can. If you run subs, keep those low during the process, and turn them up to taste at the end. We all like a good bit of low end thump in a live performance. Make that a separate part of the process. After you get that basic tone established, then go to war on feedback concerns. In both cases, tune each side of the main EQ the same if you're running stereo. Don't worry about what frequency A is. That's only important when you're recording in a digital environment and virtual instruments need to match up with each other and to acoustic instruments. Fussing over that in a live sound setup is a waste of time. If the exact frequency of A is really a concern, then you're not going to be tuning the room by ear anyway. Maybe certain physical aspects of the room will resonate at harmonics that don't agree with the way an instrument is tuned, say a bass guitar, but those are annoying artifacts that should be tuned out of the room anyway, preferably by eliminating or modifying whatever physical structure is causing it in the first place.
+twsbbl - Cool, there are many methods and this is but one; I have also done the CD reference along with the feedback ID, in both orders, and have always had the same results. When a system is turned up, certain frequencies start feeding before others and those are the ones that get reduced. The I put music in and EQ for tone. Sometimes I reverse the order...same results...sometimes I ring out from the stage and sometimes from the mixer....same results. I like that there are people like you who do it by ear as well. In the end - if it is loud enough, if everyone can hear and understand, and it doesn't feed back, sound people win! Cheers!
+bacontrees Yes, the ear is the final authority. You can tune a room perfectly flat using technology, but it can still sound like crap. Flat isn't pleasing. Flat is useful for developing a mix. It's not useful for making an audience happy. For that, you need ears. Consider that live sound production is a combination of two very complex audio production tasks - Mixing, then mastering. Live. In real time. No option to start over. I'll always trust my ears over a plot, even though the plot may give me a starting point. Agree, it's not so important whether you tune for feedback first or for aesthetics first. Unless you're in a really unusual environment, you'll get very similar results either way. I just prefer to accomplish the tonal reference first, then fight the technical issues. That way I have somewhat of a metric from which I know I"m deviating when I start notching things out.
I usually cut adjacent frequencies with the middle one dipped more, as a contour (the low-mids). The feedback frequencies I only cut 2 max (no more than two should howl at a time or the system is too loud). The Ashley EQ has low phase problems, but I do the same with any EQ I use, again, I cut a contour, not everything flat. I EQ a HPF into the graph, in case someone has C# tuning (or lower) or if someone bypasses the HPF button in a hurry, to protect the system.
Great question! For years, I would run up to the stage, check the mic, run back to the board, ring out, run back up to the stage and so on. When I started doing it from the board, I got the exact same results! If anything, I would maybe turn down the Mic Sensitivity (trim) down a bit to compensate for the close proximity to the speakers BUT, because the mic and speakers are directional, it didn't make much of a difference. Now, I ring out, then double check at the stage position - never fails!
Great question! No, it depends on many factors. 1) what kind of venue acoustics and how close is one speaker to a reflective wall than another? 2) Where are the performers on the stage in relation to the FOH system? 3) Are the horns/mids/subs the same? have they ever been replaced or has one malfunctioned or sounding different than the rest? The balance of the EQ from Left to Right FOH can differ slightly. They can be close, but the balance will reveal itself based on the mixing position.
Analogue mixers are still in a lot of clubs who can't afford an upgrade. Also, they will be around for a while and since club gear gets abused, it makes sense. Cheers!
There is a program for a PC called True RTA, which allows you to play each frequency. But, pink noise with any Real Time Analyzer and a proper test mic can tell you how to make each frequency relatively equal (+/-). However, only the main mic being used for vocals can tell you which frequencies will feed back, by using the techniques described. Cutting after feedback is really just 'to taste, 'by ear' - what you think sounds natural with a reliable sound source.
You can go two ways - 1) Mixer out to EQ, EQ out to snake then to X-over, then to amps. 2) TRS cable to insert into the main inserts, but I prefer to use the mains inserts for group compression, if I need it. Does this help?
What if all you got is a basic PA mixer with out that extra outlet your running what is your suggestion to getting the best sound and how do you adjust microphone volumes as an artist might get louder or lower during the performance? This was very helpful as well
With a basic mixer, try cutting the mids a bit and use a high-pass filter, and get the singer to sing as close as possible to the mic. During the show, you will have to gain-ride some vocalists who don't use proper mic techniques. You'd have to do some gain-riding anyway as levels will always fluctuate.
I take the HPF off, then lightly tap the mic until I hear LF feedback, raise each suspected slider on the EQ a tiny bit to see which one 'takes off most', the dip the most offending frequency slider about 3-5dB. I can use an RTA, and sometimes do just to confirm, because I like to do it by process of elimination. Dipping the LF's will clean up the bottom end.
@peppermix - if an SM58 can't handle a few taps, it doesn't belong on a stage. The same mic has been dropped, thrown and dented over a few thousand shows, so a few taps won't hurt it. That's the second reason why they are so popular, the first being that they sound great. Is there a reason why tapping is bad?
Thanks for the great video! A few quick questions if you don't mind? - - Can you briefly explain after your "ring out" overall system, what are you eq techniques after? For instance, do you use eq on each channel of board to tweak sound after ringing out? Do you do any further eq'ing of system once ringed out? -How do you "ring out" monitors? Do you have to have someone assisting you from the stage since the speakers are facing the other way? Will post a followup in next post...
Good question! No. I want the faders at specific settings for the main vocals...I want to set mic sensitivity afetr the faders, so that I know the main vocal channel can be raised to +5dB with master at '0dB'. I may not need the main vocal (or any vocal) at +5dB, but know that I can boost it there if needed, which tells me that my gain structure is working. I've seen it done with the gain first to meet unity via the LED's, but I don't find that accurate enough. Cheers!
@eaMusIk2008 - for the Behringer mixer, are the aux controls at unity gain? Actually, it may be better to send the main outputs to the EQ, then the EQ to the power amp. Or, you can use the main inserts (which Behringer is it?). If I knew the exact gear, I'd be able to help more. Let me know which models of all gear, cheers!
Just got an EQ for the band and this video is a blessing. Many, many thanks. I especially like that you push just for the brink of feedback without blasting out speakers (or the ears of those in the venue). Very doable with easy to follow directions.
I do sometimes use a well produced CD to test the speakers - tracks 3 and 4 of Beacoup Fish by Underworld. I do know that the ring-out is most important, but a good music track will help find other problems. I suggest ring out, then put music through the system to compare and perhaps further tweak it.
I start with the amps up full, then adjust the amp levels if the channel trims don't make sense. The trim at 12 o'clock should sound loud enough, assuming matching amps and speakers (amps up full are often unity gain 0dB or 75% if too loud). I always use 0dB at master and +5dB at channel, with amps up full - so, the channel trim can be judged accordingly. Cheers!
for FOH I like to first tune the PA to music im familiar with (or pink noise FOLLOWED by the music test) then ring it out, for monitors i'll usually just ring it out.
This is cool... something that should be added is that you should have the mains setup with a reference CD before you do this ring out with a MIC. Once your mains reproduces a line signal of accurately, then your channel mixes should be close to flat and if the room has feq that do not die off soon enough, then you would need to ring out the mic and all mics should be the same so they have the same eq response but will need to be tuned because of location. This was a cool tutorial.
I've seen a few videos like this, about ringing out systems for feedback, but haven't really found any tips on using the EQ for the purpose of just listening to music. For me it seems like I have to mess with the EQ for every different style of music I play. Making it sound good for club/electronic music doesn't always work once you switch to say, classic rock. I suppose that's why live shows have a guy at the board, changing things when the need arises.
Good point...but, I do use certain music tracks to balance the sound after I ring out, to make sure music sounds good, too. I use different genres, but my main choice is Underwold's The Push Upstairs...then I put some more techno stuff and then some rock and get them all to sound good - this is all with minor tweaks, though, nothing major and no boosting, all cutting. Cheers!
bacontrees Is there ever a time when boost is appropriate? But I agree that cutting is the way to go for several reasons. It lowers distortion and noise floor in a lot of cases. I've tended to average the controls around the center point when using several sliders. For example if several frequencies needed to be cut by 4db, I would cut them by 2 db and boost the others by 2 db. But that's my itch for keeping everything symmetrical LOL. Hopefully I can get out of that habit. I've been using a DBX Driverack PA+ for the past couple years, but the background hiss has been driving me crazy. I decided to try going back to the old EAW processors and an analog EQ soon, which is why I've been looking up videos like this. Whenever I used the auto EQ on the Driverack, it tended to favor the mids way too much for my taste. Though I think the bad room acoustics are the root of that problem. The room modes are really bad due to concrete floor and low ceiling.
As far as cutting vs boosting - I cut all problems first, then boost only if a region is lacking and it won't cause feedback - like boosting 8k -10k to brighten up a mix in a full room. BUT, when I dip the low-mids, the vocals really cut through without being too boxy sounding. If I cut adjacent sliders, I do exactly what you do - cut two sliders less than I would have cut one, assuming the EQ is a 'combining' type, and the cut between them is a little deeper than bot together. I use the Driverack sometimes at some venues, but I only ever leave the internal EQ flat, then tune the room with an external 31 band (Ashley is my fav, but DBX or Behringer work as well).
6:38 It's very interesting that L&R FOH EQ are slightly different in that node of feedback that you've rang out earlier. I guess slightly different reflections and room nodes on the right side. 8) Interesting to see how different people do live room EQing.
Cool! I do cut when the volume is a bit louder, or boost a bit to confirm when the volume is a little lower, depending on who is in the room. Either way works.
Also, our church has a small system (2 Mackie SR1530's) for congregation of about 150. They mic the drums with two overheads, kick mic and snare, however, often times they turn off the mics due to being too loud. Would compression or other techniques still allow for drums to come through main mix at a pleasing volume? Lastly, could you post another followup video on ringing out monitors and further eq'ing once band is in place? Thanks!
I would use the main outputs of the mixer and go directly into the EQ. It makes the most sense and is often recommended by the gear manufacturers. Cheers!
Great thanks!! Got a triple header this weekend at 3 different venues, ill be testing this out for sure. Thanks again, hope to see some more vids soon!! ( maybe one on compressors....) take care!!
Yes. This is how you PROPERLY ring out a pa for a band/solo artist. Forget the RTA's, you HAVE to bring it to the point of feedback to find the trouble spots. Because, feedback is the #1 problem you will be dreading when mixing. Not the tone of the speakers/instruments (EQ), or how we'll you get it mixed. It's feedback.
Hei bacon, it was really a new approach to me when u cranked up the annoying fader to isolate it.Hv been normally bringing it down to eliminate or trace that feedback.Thanks, geart tip.
@bacontrees My mackie mixer is the CFX20.mkII and behringer is the EURORACK MX1804X. But the problem is that the only mic that gives feedback is the main vocal mic so thought that sending through aux would be better. Thank you soo much brother for your help.
1) I am at the board, within about 30 feet. I used to do it from the stage, now from the board (same results). I double check from the lead singer position. 2) I pan hard right, then left, it's the easiest for that system. Cheers!
1) Churches are notorious for long reverb times, so compression may not help a lot - loud is loud. I would dip some mids on the drums and maybe roll off some highs, but let the bass come through and turn it up just a bit over stage volume. 2) The best I can do is shadow a mixer at the club and see how they tweak the channels for each instrument. Good idea, though, I will try to arrange it!
This is a great intro to the subject because it's a true demonstration by a working sound guy in a real venue! No fluff or jargon, just the really hearing and seeing the basic principles, I can get started on this with confidence.
Great vid for a mic/playback scenario. However you base your entire sound system eq with one mic? What about the drum mics and other instrument mics? What about analysing the room? I don't want to be negative, but there is ALOT more to ringing out your sound system than just this. But great intro to live sound though man!
Thanks for the reply - I've tried it many ways and always ended up with the same results. I prefer to use the lead vocal mic to shape the sound, then put a high-pass on all vocal mics, then I absolutely double check that all other mics sound good - and they always do. If I need to tweak other mics, I then fine-tune with their channel strip EQ's. I've had access to an RTA through the DBX Drive Rack and tried it out a few times, but didn't like the results, so I went back to using an SM58. In the end, if the vocals sound loud and clear, and I can control all other channels and they sound great, it's all good. This method comes from years of trying different things...
bacontrees ...what I find funny is that every time I have come in for a sound shift, in whatever club, the FOH EQ's and Monitr EQ's were always, always different. Partly because of the different sound people and partly because of the 'on-the-fly' tweaks of the EQ's during a show. Thanks for asking because it inspires me to make another video with the info I just shared...cheers!
this is a great video, would be interesting to see a video using a slow sine wave sweep in the room to treat for any resonant frequencies, I'm looking to study different techniques for doing this as you`ll know within a room if there are reflections of frequencies becuase of the materials in a room some may be absorbing and some may be amplifying, it's an interesting science I can almost visualize and imagine and often hear in some rooms. even once setup and fine tuned for the room then there is the element that people have yet to come into the room but this can be adapted on the fly I'd imagine once the room fills up if they absorb, but setting up beforehand I'd imagine may a good starting point before a show starts. Hope you can reply with some advice @bacontrees :) thank you once again for this informative video.
Yes, I choose the 'in line' set up. Some choose the 'insert' method. I base the entire mix on the lead vocal mic, so the EQ is set to the vocal mic's response, then I check that music playback (from a good reference track) plays back to sound good. BUT, the EQ'ing is not at all radical, just enough to get rid of problems.
First, ring out any problem frequencies, then cut anything that takes away from a natural sounding vocal. A CD is great for further shaping the the of the system.
Ambient stage mics for live plays would be a different beast. Ringing out takes a whole new meaning with theatre. I would have a separate EQ (or EQ setting) specifically for PZM mics, or any other omni condensers/boundary mics. A combination of omni's (an array of 3 or more, depending on stage width) plus two shotgun mics between every omni, for a focused hotspot (marked with a small 'x' on the floor so the actors know where the hotspots are). The ring out will be more radical and time-consuming
I do both sides just to compare when mixed together, as in some rooms, one speaker is close to a wall, or one is under an alcove or in a corner, so they may respond differently.
The venue actually had 3 consoles since I've been there - Soundcraft Ghost, Mackie and a G&L I believe. I never know what I'm gonna get, unless I rent/bring something. The technique is the same, but I agree - it's not the best. Cheers!
Is there a sound file that plays each frequency separeted so you can hear each frequency and adjust the equalizer acordingly to see if it is lower or higher than it should be? I find it difficult to equalize with normal music...
So how does this work when ringing out ambient stage mics for theatre use? Would you turn all mics up to plus 5 and adjust all the gains until they feed back slightly before continuing as you have here? There'd be no way to check with an input signal unless you had someone parading around a stage shouting at you... ... what do you think?
great video. What I don't get though is why you don't level out the mic channel strip's GAIN first, so that you know how far up it is gonna be? setting it at "12 o clock position" seems pretty arbitrary to me. or isn't it?
Thanks for the compliment! In answer to your question, I adjust the gain last so I can maintain +5dB fader setting for the loudest vocal mic (if needed), without feedback and with clean sound. When the amps match the speakers, and turned up between 75% and 100%, and the console master out is at 0dB and channel fader at +5dB, I usually end up with the mic trim somewhere between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. This holds true for just about every gig I do. Another method I had seen was setting the mic trim to 0dB (via solo or PFL) and then adding the faders, BUT, I find that to be a scientific approach, based on electronics, not a 'by the ear' approach, based on acoustics. I prefer the latter. Since I only use modest compression, the lead (or loudest) vocal can be very dynamic and setting the mic trim (or gain) to 0dB doesn't really account for peak headroom. Anyway, I've tried it many different ways and this method works for me. Also note - I cut lower mids, modestly, and use very little compression, as I prefer to gain-ride vocals as well. Cheers!
+Joseph Longo a couple of possibilities include: 1) "in line" - mixer out to EQ to X-over to amps to speakers 2) "insert" - EQ inserted to master out on mixer to X-over to amps to speakers 3) when using powered speakers - either of the above signal paths, but no X-over (built into powered speaker) and no amp (built in as well). Let me know if this helps...cheers!
very good Video, very helpful, I push sliders up if that frequency ring right away I cut about 5-8 dB, slider up dose not ring right away then I cut only 5dB. it work very good Is there any recommendation? Thanks
I am 16 Years old and I have only done about 3 productions with live sound. One of the middle schools in my area was in a pinch and asked me to come in and run audio for there musical. We are running 16 wireless packs with the microphones located on the talents hairline(not ideal at all I know). I have a moderate knowledge basis on Live Sound and I was wondering if I could achieve the same thing using the parametric EQ on the Yamaha board I'm using.
Hi great video. I'm trying to understand why the frequency of the input signal (ie. voice into mic) doesn't seem critical for ringing-out. Is it because an average voice contains a big enough range of frequencies? For example, wouldn't a female voice have more problems with higher pitch feedback. I've seen an engineer not even talk into the mic, just leave it open and wack up the gain until it feeds back. What do you think to this approach? Finally, have you ever used automatic feedback 'destroyers' that can take a very thin notch out of the eq. If so have you found them useful?
+totaltotalmonkey good questions! Fisrtly, it is the transducers themselves that are interacting (the mic and the speakers), so a voice just represents a real world test signal that can actually start the feedback (very often, when I hold the mic, speaking into it will push everything to the point of feedback when it's 'almost' ready to happen). An individual voice (male or female) will usually require fine tuning on the channel strip EQ. Some people just turn up the mic until it feeds back, but my approach offers more control as I just want to hear the 'potential' to feed back, or very mild ringing, so that I don't overdo the cutting of the EQ. Very often, the bandwidth of the feedback frequencies is too wide for a steep, narrow cut, so I tend to leave the feedback destroyers off if I am working on a mixer or EQ that has them. Since reducing an EQ slider at the nearest ringing frequency is not cutting, but actually flattening the problem, I find the slider approach more beneficial. But, either technique can be used. In the end, if the sound system sounds loud, clear and natural, with no feedback, then whatever technique used is valid. As long as the audience enjoys the show. Cheers!
+bacontrees Thanks for the speedy detailed answer. I like that your method doesn't until create as much loud ringing, and I'm going to try it in a couple weeks when I'm due to sound eng an event.
You're videos are great! I use driverack pa+ and use the auto eq to save time, but then have to go in search mode to find the feedback culprit during the performance. Many times, it's the band playing too darn loud and a loop feedback occurs. I think I am going to go back and eq manually from my qsc touchmix (the mobile app for iPad comes in handy!). I know this video is from 2011, but the only thing I would suggest is set a gain structure on the mic first before bringing up the channel fader.
Cool, I've been looking into the Touchmix, actually....is it a good unit? Also, I set gain after the fader at +5dB, so that I can establish the loudest any vocal fader can be pushed during the show. I normally end up with the gain between 11 and 1 o'clock on the trim knob. I know some people set gain first, then fader second......we get pretty similar results. As for the Driverack, that's good to know.....often a flattened system needs some further ring-outs during the show...cheers!
Regarding the touchmix, I like the flexibility of it. I can go on stage and make eq changes on monitors as needed using my iPad which is awesome! With the bands i frequently work with, I actually allow them to setup their own monitor mix from their mobile device on stage after I ring out the system / set gain levels. I have the qsc touchmix 16 with six aux sends and two TRS aux sends which come in handy. However, if you like the touch of physical faders, i'd stick to a console that allows for that. The onboard compressors, limiter, reverb is qsc quality. Did I mention it is a space saver? I like it.
Generally, yes. But there is some 'give and take' room to balance things out. Assuming the speakers are a good match for the amps, then you can back off the amps a bit and the X-over in order to run the console at unity gain. But then, maybe trimming down the gains to allow the amps to be at full volume sometimes works - depending on the set-up.
Actually, I ran that system mono for years, until they got us another EQ. I actually preferred to mix most acts in mono, even with a stereo set up, at that place and others.....if a place has a wider room, I would pan guitars and toms a bit but not too much.
Are you using the eq's as inserts? Say I have 4 mics and I group them in a bus, can I use my eq as a bus insert so all 4 mics can be "ringed out"?, how are you running your eq's in this video? Inserts or main chain? thanks in advance
Thanks for the video. Would this change when room fills with people? I'm not a pro sound man. Just was the one band member who had to buy the PA and is responsible for setting up.
+Jason Smith - yes, the EQ may change, but the feedback control and naturalness (dipping low mids) would remain. What I mean is that the only thing that would change is that you may add higher frequencies that weren't feeding back (like 4kHz or so) because of the absorption increase, so EQ'ing is a great starting point. BUT, always go to the front of the room where the people are to check any changes as you may no need to do anything.
+bacontrees thanks for the info, I hate the sneers I got from an old full of himself one hit wonder guitar player the other night. I had a fairly large group leave just before end of show and wow did that change the sound a lot. Doing sound by default whilst other bandmates smoke their cigarettes lol.
The primary goal is to get rid of feedback, then the lower mid dip is to smooth out the overall sound. Once the feedback is gone, it's easier to shape the tone of the system. I find the lower mids usually have that boxy quality that needs smoothing out. So, same EQ for both procedures. Cheers!
Hello Bacon trees summer breeze buck buck whats up buck.....this is a great lesson. My only question is after you ring out your mains you set your vocal for the mix at Unity or keep it at the +5 DB?
Thank you for your videos and sharing your knowledge! Really I appreciate that you took the time to help out with a clean heart and good intentions. I had a question if anybody could please help, do you need an eq for for both a left and right channel? Also, what if there are a lot of vocal mics and you need to eq each one seperatly? Thanks so muchhh!
I would like how you set up the eq with the mixer please be detail i am new to live mixning i am using the behringer eurodesk sx2442fx how set up my eq to this like you did
If I had a parametic, I would vary the bandwidth for the frequency, but I rarely had anything but a 31 band EQ for a live show, so knowing that the bandwidth of each 31 band slider is about 23% of the centre frequency, I can cut one slider nearest the problem or two sliders for a problem in between, but half as much, if the sliders are of the 'combining' type.
@@paul0771 The calculation of 23.2% bandwidth equals a Q factor of 4. Here is a great online calculator to figure out Q... www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cutoffFrequencies.htm
Would there not be frequency cancellations/ misbalances between L&R PA as you’ve effectively differentiated the output levels of each frequency signal?
Hey bacon tree. I'm having a lot of trouble getting my pastors mic to behave. I've never adjusted a graphic eq, simply because no one has ever shown me how. But this video seems to be what I'm looking for. An additional question I have is, if I have singers, then a pastor speaking after that, which mic should I use to ring the system out, the pastors mic or the lead singers mic? Any advice is appreciated, thanks.
+Carrie Snide - Thanks for the question! No matter what mic is used, you must get rid of feedback....then, adjust the tonal quality to make it sound good with all vocals....1) get rid of feedback, 2) adjust quality by dipping some lower middle frequencies, 3) high-pass starting at 100Hz. 4) reduce some 3-5kHz to smooth out most vocals in most rooms. I hope this helps, please send another question if I can be more detailed...cheers!
I appreciate the help. I've been doing sound for a long time for a couple different churchs and i can di some things very well but there is some stuff I was taught, "NEVER touch this!" I realize now that that is not always the case. I have watched a couple of your videos now and I'm impressed. thanks again.
+Carrie Snide - "never touch this" for audio people is an invitation to question methods....unless they set it up flawlessly at the start, which is rarely the case...systems always have to be checked for feedback and naturalness...let me know if can can be of any more help. I have some more videos coming out about this.
They should be between 75% and 100% when matched to speakers....if your masters are at 0dB and your channel is set to around 0dB and your channel trim is between 11 and 1 o'clock, the amps will end up being between 75 and 100%. I start by setting amps to 100% and then get the settings I want from the mixer (EQ at 0), then adjust depending on my mixer settings.
My friend am in Uganda(East Africa) n I would like to purchase a full PA sound system for the church where I play from.Would u plz help me and advise me on wat kind of sound appliances 2 buy.secondly, how can i purchase them directly from abroad.
+Lance Serutnev Think differently. You don't EQ a sound system. You tune it to the listening environment. EQ is just one tool you use to do that. An outdoor venue is still a listening environment, and the sound system needs to be tuned to that environment. Tune the back of house first by good speaker placement, balanced crossover and amp settings, etc. Then fine tune with EQ at front of house. Same as you would in an enclosed venue. The big difference is that you might find yourself boosting in areas that you would normally be cutting.
Yes! And very much the same as indoors, except with no standing waves indoors or harmonics of them.....the speakers outdoors will feed back, but the bass response will be different. I have made a video to answer this question which I will upload asap...cheers!
Yes, if the vocal is loud enough...but I know I can push a vocal channel to +5 if needed...to fish out quieter passages, etc. All vocal mics will have the same gain, therefore, any one of them can be pushed to +5 if needed....it's a sort of fail-safe in case I need the extra volume. cheers!
bacontrees Otherwise the combined volume would be too much? Love this! I've been gigging for about a year and feedback is restricting us from upgrading, going louder, and really smacking the crowd in the face
I forgot to elaborate - every doubling of open mics results in 3dB less Acoustic Gain...so, by reserving a +5dB spot for a mic that needs more level, you can avoid feedback (or, in theory, 2.5dB for 2 mics). By setting the lead vocal mic as loud and clear as possible before feedback, everything gets mixed around it and feedback should rarely be a problem. Thanks for the question, let me know if I should add more to it...cheers!
man, when I'm going to ringing out the PA system, as you describe above, what output on the mixer should I use to get a stable pattern of EQ? shoud I use main output (L/R) or maybe I can use main insert in mixer board? thank you.
I think who ever made the negative comment on here had some point... for instance I like to pink the room and glance at an RTA. Use the graphic EQ on the console to get it flat, then use the parametric EQ on the L/R to set to taste with music. Once I've got familiar music sounding how it should then I ring the room. Ringing the room is important but it's not the only step.
+snapascrew I agree - a combo of ringing out the room and making the reference music sound good is a good approach. I have found that ringing out, then making my voice sound good usually results in the music sounding good. If the music needs a little help, I choose to use the channel for refining the EQ...
Actually, one driver was replaced and also one FOH speaker is closer to a wall, so they respond slightly differently. When double checked on the stage, this still holds true. So, yes, the speakers are a little different. It was an old club.
that's good !!!!! Di Jakarta telah ada Sound System School, yang memberikan materi tentang mengatasi feedback juga. ada basic class dan advanced class.
THANK YOU for your response(: I have 2 mixers setup and I am getting bad sound from my dbx eq.on my mackie mixer I have a two 1/4 ts cables going from main output of mixer to eq and then from eq to amp and then from amp I have xlr cables going to speakers. It is not sounding clear. There is a bit of hiss.On my other behringer mixer I have the aux send to my eq in and then frm my eq out to aux return. Using tr 1/4 cabls. when I raise the aux lvel feedbk occurs. Do i have something setup wrong?
The amp gain depends on the speaker match. But, when the master is set to Unity, the channel to +5dB (to start, for ringing out), and the gain set to +/- 12 o'clock, the amp should be based on those settings.
This system is run in stereo, but it used to be mono, with only 1 EQ for the front of house mix - and it sounded great. The main monitor mix on stage is through a 31-band EQ and the drum monitor is only a 15 band EQ. I would for sure have a graphic EQ on each major output because of the open mics causing feedback and to clean up the sound.
Well, the DBX Driverack can be used for feedback control and tone control via the internal EQ (or even flattening with internal pink noise), but it is a crossover as well, so it may be in the amp rack far away. or, if in the drive rack at the console (aka the effects rack), you can have it there but it is not as easy to fix problems on the fly...but they can work.
Good video, thank you. Seems like you want to use the same mic for testing that they will using for vocals onstage since they can vary so much in frequency response. Would you use a similar approach for monitors by using the test mic onstage (needing another person of course)?
David Collins Funny thing - I use the lead singer position for ringing out both the monitors and the FOH. I start at the mixer, ring out FOH (and monitors if they are within 30 feet or so,; further and I will just use stage position for monitors). I used to set the mic up on stage, turn up the fader, master, then increase gain little by little, running up to the stage with each gain increase. Until I got as loud as possible with no feedback (and clean sounding). I now start from the mixer position and double check on stage. I use the vocal mic (the best I have available) to ring out and tune because vocals are the most important thing in a mix. I then fine tune each channel (if needed), including all vocalists and instruments. It is impossible to tune the system (major tuning, anyway) to a specific vocalist, so I use reference signals - my voice, 3-4 reference songs and maybe even a spoken word audio clip - just to get a great starting point before the show. Then I fine tune as I go. It always works. Cheers!
hey, just wondering, is the EQ only for stopping ringing frequencies? What about EQing the overall sound so that it sounds like a CD? Do you have another graphic EQ for that?
Personally I would do the test with the mic on stage. At control a would gently push up faders to ring out problem frequencies. Then If possible ask someone to speak into the mic while I have a walk around the venue and use the parametric eq to sweeten it up. Everybody has their own method!
In this case, the entire system, which works well for most clubs and small concerts. I ring out the feedback and smooth out the tone of the best mic, which is assumed to to be used for lead vocals (singer, MC, comedian, presenter, etc). Then, every other channel is adjusted independently, but the 31 band EQ is affecting the entire mix. That is my approach and it has worked well at a few thousand shows so far. Another approach is to route the vocals to a sub-group, then insert a 31 band EQ into that group so only the vocals are being EQ'd that way, leaving the main graphic EQ flat for other instruments (which will still need to be EQ'd). Another approach is to play pink noise through a flat test mic and flatten the system, which I would totally do for critical listening in studio, or for tracking down huge problems for a live system (but I use my ears mostly and rarely have to 'pink the room'). Feedback can still occur, however, and will have to be controlled. Since the SM58, Beta 58, Audix OM6 and other high quality mics all have similar responses (especially between 2k and 8k), the resulting EQ corrections will be similar (I have used all of them and have taken pix of my graphs for years). Now, if 3 singers have SM58's, and the lead singer has a Beta 58 (or something similar), I will ring out based on the SM58 and fine tune the Beta58 on its own channel EQ (and do the same to all other channels). All approaches will work if 1) it is loud enough, 2) everybody can hear and understand, 3) there is no feedback. Hope this helps!! Thanks for the comment, and watching the video!!
Another approach is to smooth out the sound of the system (with the 31 band EQ), and a good reference track of music, voice, etc...then notch out the feedback with notch filters when using an open mic. One problem is that sometimes there are no notch filters available. Unless the mixer has a dual mid-sweep EQ with Bandwidth control, then you would have to notch each mic independently (or, if you have a set of notch filters built into a graphic EQ). Cheers!
hi thanks for the video i have 2000w xti crown amp i just want to use one 400w bin and one 300w top with eq and xover would the amp be to powerful thanks.
When you "know a bit" of live sound but don't have the exposure and experience of a pro background, this video is excellent. No waffle and fancy graphics, just straight to the point with the knowledge, practical info and camera shots to let you learn how to EQ a room using real equipment. Applicable to analogue and digital console workflows alike. Excellent, thank you!
Cheers! :-)
Thanks for the comment - I ring out the mic from the mixer, then put it back onto the stage and double check that it a) sounds good and b) the cut frequencies make sense. I've done this technique from San Diego to Atlanta, Toronto to Vancouver, many places in between, and it just always works.
Hi! Gain staging is as follows: 1) master a `0dB``, 2) channel fader at +5dB, 3) channel gain (`trim`) raised until feedback, then feedback taken out, then raised a little more until loud and stable - channel gains end up between 11 and 1 o`clock. 4) BUT, the amps should be at unity as well - usually 75-100% up, close to the loudest position (if speakers are a good match). Cheers!
As a DJ turned television sound mixer for the past 20 years, I loved your video! I don't have a 'technical' degree in sound, but use my ears. I also playback the airchecks of bands I mix and learn from what I did right and wrong, and go from there.
Subscribed to your channel! .
Thanks for commenting - I hear you, and I have done it with a reference CD first, then ringing out, and the ringing out followed by the CD, and, aside from some minor EQ adjustments, it stays the same. The CD is a good reference (I use Underwold's Beaucoup Fish, tracks 2 and 3), but since it is a direct signal, I rely on the ring-out mainly. I never have major problems. But, sometimes a vocalist with a weird voice must be EQ'd differently, so my procedure is a really good starting point.
Thanks for the comment! BTW, tapping a dynamic mic won't do any damage. I wouldn't tap a ribbon mic, or some condensers, but a 58, no probs, it can handle it. I've seen 58's dropped, thrown, smacked, kicked, the list goes on - never anything but a dent on the grill. Also, just to clarify, I only ring out from the front of house, then I open up a lead singer channel at the stage, with the same settings as the test mic, then double and triple check it. Thanks again! Cheers!
I appreciate your comment. I used to do it from the stage and run back to the board to adjust. Now I do it in front of the board, then double check the settings from the stage - never fails. I have set up and mixed over 4,000 shows, trust me, it works. Since the 58 is a cardioid, the off-axis rejection is simply that. The important part is double checking from the stage. I actually set up an open channel just like the test channel, with system on, and plug the mic in - works!
Thanks for the comment! When a slider does not ring, I mostly leave it at 0dB. I cut the feedback sliders maybe 5-6dB. I try to keep everything as close to the 0dB line as possible. I cut only what's needed to preserve the amplitude, as too much cutting reduces overall level, the I have to make up the gain with the main level control. Things do vary, though, due to crowd size, unique vocal tones, 'on the fly' adjustments, etc.
but isnt it going to be different with different vocalists and microphones? and different speaking locations? how does this contribute to overall good sound on a master bus? how does listening to a reference track in the venue play into this?
It doesn't change that much with different vocals, but it does assume the standard, high quality vocal mic types such as the 58, OM5, e835, which are all pretty flat between 100 and 1kHz. I've tried it in many different rooms on many different types of PA's, and get similar results. Reference tracks also sound pretty good with the EQ setting. I do tweak each instrument on their own channels when needed, though. Cheers!
@@bacontrees would you ever use multiple mics to ring out the room on the graphic eq, or always just a single central vocal mic? what if a band had two vocalists?
@eaMusIk2008 - Hi and thanks for the comment!! You can use a single EQ for both channels if the system is in mono - the system shown is wired for stereo, so we have a dual-31 band EQ, but it used to be in mono, so the system used to be EQ'd with a single EQ.
The mic used is an SM58 - which is a good reference mic to use for the whole system, if that is the mic used for the vocals on stage. Each individual mic on stage should be EQ'd further with their channel strip. Hope this helps!
@sajtoscsoda - I also used "Good evening Toronto", "Dog", "Check", "Toronto", "Pssst" and some random phrases to get an overall balance. "Ahh" sounds are good for hearing boxy sounds ('dog', 'walk'), "Pssst" is good for highs, and "Annoying" is good for UA-camrs who can't stand to see someone go out of their way to show someone how to do a ring-out properly.
Agree with other comments ... An excellent, informative video with no bblah blah blah. Well done 👍
Thank you so much!
Hi again, once I establish a 'fairly hot' mic trim (based on 0dB Mst, +5dB Ch), which is usually between 11 and 1 o'clock (based on amps being near full volume), I push the sliders up 3 to 4 dB, because, yes, any frequency will feed back when pushed too loud. I listen for the first ones to ring. If a slider doesn't ring, I leave it at 0dB. After ringing, I scoop out the garbage (as shown).
For the maximizer, I would ring out with it as it would be used (show-ready settings).
I didn't see this post until now - in response, I push each slider up maybe 4-5 dB, because you are right, any frequency could feed back when pushed up high enough. If they are stable when pushed up, I leave them alone (assuming the amps are at unity gain and the console has a sensible gain structure). Cheers!
1) I balance the system with amp and/or x-over controls, I tune/ring out with a main EQ, then fine tune each instrument with channel EQ. During a show, I may need to tweak the main EQ depending on the situation.
2) I face the monitors toward the FOH mixing console, then ring them out just like the mains. I put them back as wedges on stage and double check the quality. I used to run back and forth from the stage to make adjustments, but I've been doing this way since - same results. Cheers!
I roll-off the monitors from 40Hz down as a precaution, set up just like the HPF. It works. I create a softer low-mid sound by dipping the lower mids, but not all equal - the centre frequency is the most cut, ie; the one with the most problems.The phase is clean, especially with Ashley EQ's. It all just works for me - sounds great, lot's of level, no distortion. But, we all have our ways of getting loud, clean sound. Cheers!
Interesting forum online says: "When tuning instruments, a guideline of “A440” or 441, or whatever is agreed to by the musicians as a starting point. That type of consensus has not been universally agreed to by sound engineers, not by a long shot." and "There are many valid approaches to room EQ. Not providing a main EQ to a band engineer is about like saying to him that there is only one “correct” way to do his job." Food for thought.
+bacontrees 432
+bacontrees My favorite way to "tune" a room by ear is to use a reference CD on an old fashioned CD player. Whatever you like, that you think is well mixed, well engineered and well mastered. Preferably something that matches the style of music that will be played during the gig. Plug a good pair of headphones directly into the CD player. Headphones on / headphones off / tune / rinse / lather /repeat. Get the room to sound as close to what you hear in the headphones as you can. If you run subs, keep those low during the process, and turn them up to taste at the end. We all like a good bit of low end thump in a live performance. Make that a separate part of the process.
After you get that basic tone established, then go to war on feedback concerns. In both cases, tune each side of the main EQ the same if you're running stereo.
Don't worry about what frequency A is. That's only important when you're recording in a digital environment and virtual instruments need to match up with each other and to acoustic instruments. Fussing over that in a live sound setup is a waste of time. If the exact frequency of A is really a concern, then you're not going to be tuning the room by ear anyway. Maybe certain physical aspects of the room will resonate at harmonics that don't agree with the way an instrument is tuned, say a bass guitar, but those are annoying artifacts that should be tuned out of the room anyway, preferably by eliminating or modifying whatever physical structure is causing it in the first place.
+twsbbl - Cool, there are many methods and this is but one; I have also done the CD reference along with the feedback ID, in both orders, and have always had the same results.
When a system is turned up, certain frequencies start feeding before others and those are the ones that get reduced. The I put music in and EQ for tone. Sometimes I reverse the order...same results...sometimes I ring out from the stage and sometimes from the mixer....same results.
I like that there are people like you who do it by ear as well. In the end - if it is loud enough, if everyone can hear and understand, and it doesn't feed back, sound people win! Cheers!
+bacontrees Yes, the ear is the final authority. You can tune a room perfectly flat using technology, but it can still sound like crap. Flat isn't pleasing. Flat is useful for developing a mix. It's not useful for making an audience happy. For that, you need ears. Consider that live sound production is a combination of two very complex audio production tasks - Mixing, then mastering. Live. In real time. No option to start over. I'll always trust my ears over a plot, even though the plot may give me a starting point.
Agree, it's not so important whether you tune for feedback first or for aesthetics first. Unless you're in a really unusual environment, you'll get very similar results either way. I just prefer to accomplish the tonal reference first, then fight the technical issues. That way I have somewhat of a metric from which I know I"m deviating when I start notching things out.
I usually cut adjacent frequencies with the middle one dipped more, as a contour (the low-mids). The feedback frequencies I only cut 2 max (no more than two should howl at a time or the system is too loud). The Ashley EQ has low phase problems, but I do the same with any EQ I use, again, I cut a contour, not everything flat. I EQ a HPF into the graph, in case someone has C# tuning (or lower) or if someone bypasses the HPF button in a hurry, to protect the system.
Great question! For years, I would run up to the stage, check the mic, run back to the board, ring out, run back up to the stage and so on. When I started doing it from the board, I got the exact same results! If anything, I would maybe turn down the Mic Sensitivity (trim) down a bit to compensate for the close proximity to the speakers BUT, because the mic and speakers are directional, it didn't make much of a difference.
Now, I ring out, then double check at the stage position - never fails!
Great question! No, it depends on many factors. 1) what kind of venue acoustics and how close is one speaker to a reflective wall than another? 2) Where are the performers on the stage in relation to the FOH system? 3) Are the horns/mids/subs the same? have they ever been replaced or has one malfunctioned or sounding different than the rest?
The balance of the EQ from Left to Right FOH can differ slightly. They can be close, but the balance will reveal itself based on the mixing position.
Analogue mixers are still in a lot of clubs who can't afford an upgrade. Also, they will be around for a while and since club gear gets abused, it makes sense. Cheers!
There is a program for a PC called True RTA, which allows you to play each frequency. But, pink noise with any Real Time Analyzer and a proper test mic can tell you how to make each frequency relatively equal (+/-). However, only the main mic being used for vocals can tell you which frequencies will feed back, by using the techniques described. Cutting after feedback is really just 'to taste, 'by ear' - what you think sounds natural with a reliable sound source.
You can go two ways - 1) Mixer out to EQ, EQ out to snake then to X-over, then to amps. 2) TRS cable to insert into the main inserts, but I prefer to use the mains inserts for group compression, if I need it. Does this help?
What if all you got is a basic PA mixer with out that extra outlet your running what is your suggestion to getting the best sound and how do you adjust microphone volumes as an artist might get louder or lower during the performance? This was very helpful as well
With a basic mixer, try cutting the mids a bit and use a high-pass filter, and get the singer to sing as close as possible to the mic. During the show, you will have to gain-ride some vocalists who don't use proper mic techniques. You'd have to do some gain-riding anyway as levels will always fluctuate.
I take the HPF off, then lightly tap the mic until I hear LF feedback, raise each suspected slider on the EQ a tiny bit to see which one 'takes off most', the dip the most offending frequency slider about 3-5dB. I can use an RTA, and sometimes do just to confirm, because I like to do it by process of elimination. Dipping the LF's will clean up the bottom end.
@peppermix - if an SM58 can't handle a few taps, it doesn't belong on a stage. The same mic has been dropped, thrown and dented over a few thousand shows, so a few taps won't hurt it. That's the second reason why they are so popular, the first being that they sound great. Is there a reason why tapping is bad?
Thanks for the great video!
A few quick questions if you don't mind? -
- Can you briefly explain after your "ring out" overall system, what are you eq techniques after? For instance, do you use eq on each channel of board to tweak sound after ringing out? Do you do any further eq'ing of system once ringed out?
-How do you "ring out" monitors? Do you have to have someone assisting you from the stage since the speakers are facing the other way? Will post a followup in next post...
Good question! No. I want the faders at specific settings for the main vocals...I want to set mic sensitivity afetr the faders, so that I know the main vocal channel can be raised to +5dB with master at '0dB'. I may not need the main vocal (or any vocal) at +5dB, but know that I can boost it there if needed, which tells me that my gain structure is working. I've seen it done with the gain first to meet unity via the LED's, but I don't find that accurate enough. Cheers!
@eaMusIk2008 - for the Behringer mixer, are the aux controls at unity gain? Actually, it may be better to send the main outputs to the EQ, then the EQ to the power amp. Or, you can use the main inserts (which Behringer is it?). If I knew the exact gear, I'd be able to help more. Let me know which models of all gear, cheers!
Just got an EQ for the band and this video is a blessing. Many, many thanks. I especially like that you push just for the brink of feedback without blasting out speakers (or the ears of those in the venue). Very doable with easy to follow directions.
+Randy Powell Thank you for the comment! I am glad this works for you.
Buck....U....ARE...THE....MAN!!! I just took over as sound ENG for my church and this video helped me tremendously. Please keep em coming. Thanks. H.
I do sometimes use a well produced CD to test the speakers - tracks 3 and 4 of Beacoup Fish by Underworld. I do know that the ring-out is most important, but a good music track will help find other problems. I suggest ring out, then put music through the system to compare and perhaps further tweak it.
I start with the amps up full, then adjust the amp levels if the channel trims don't make sense. The trim at 12 o'clock should sound loud enough, assuming matching amps and speakers (amps up full are often unity gain 0dB or 75% if too loud). I always use 0dB at master and +5dB at channel, with amps up full - so, the channel trim can be judged accordingly. Cheers!
for FOH I like to first tune the PA to music im familiar with (or pink noise FOLLOWED by the music test) then ring it out, for monitors i'll usually just ring it out.
This is cool... something that should be added is that you should have the mains setup with a reference CD before you do this ring out with a MIC. Once your mains reproduces a line signal of accurately, then your channel mixes should be close to flat and if the room has feq that do not die off soon enough, then you would need to ring out the mic and all mics should be the same so they have the same eq response but will need to be tuned because of location.
This was a cool tutorial.
I've seen a few videos like this, about ringing out systems for feedback, but haven't really found any tips on using the EQ for the purpose of just listening to music. For me it seems like I have to mess with the EQ for every different style of music I play. Making it sound good for club/electronic music doesn't always work once you switch to say, classic rock. I suppose that's why live shows have a guy at the board, changing things when the need arises.
Good point...but, I do use certain music tracks to balance the sound after I ring out, to make sure music sounds good, too. I use different genres, but my main choice is Underwold's The Push Upstairs...then I put some more techno stuff and then some rock and get them all to sound good - this is all with minor tweaks, though, nothing major and no boosting, all cutting. Cheers!
bacontrees Is there ever a time when boost is appropriate? But I agree that cutting is the way to go for several reasons. It lowers distortion and noise floor in a lot of cases.
I've tended to average the controls around the center point when using several sliders. For example if several frequencies needed to be cut by 4db, I would cut them by 2 db and boost the others by 2 db. But that's my itch for keeping everything symmetrical LOL. Hopefully I can get out of that habit.
I've been using a DBX Driverack PA+ for the past couple years, but the background hiss has been driving me crazy. I decided to try going back to the old EAW processors and an analog EQ soon, which is why I've been looking up videos like this. Whenever I used the auto EQ on the Driverack, it tended to favor the mids way too much for my taste. Though I think the bad room acoustics are the root of that problem. The room modes are really bad due to concrete floor and low ceiling.
As far as cutting vs boosting - I cut all problems first, then boost only if a region is lacking and it won't cause feedback - like boosting 8k -10k to brighten up a mix in a full room. BUT, when I dip the low-mids, the vocals really cut through without being too boxy sounding.
If I cut adjacent sliders, I do exactly what you do - cut two sliders less than I would have cut one, assuming the EQ is a 'combining' type, and the cut between them is a little deeper than bot together.
I use the Driverack sometimes at some venues, but I only ever leave the internal EQ flat, then tune the room with an external 31 band (Ashley is my fav, but DBX or Behringer work as well).
6:38 It's very interesting that L&R FOH EQ are slightly different in that node of feedback that you've rang out earlier. I guess slightly different reflections and room nodes on the right side. 8) Interesting to see how different people do live room EQing.
Cheers! Thanks for subscribing!
Cool! I do cut when the volume is a bit louder, or boost a bit to confirm when the volume is a little lower, depending on who is in the room. Either way works.
Also, our church has a small system (2 Mackie SR1530's) for congregation of about 150. They mic the drums with two overheads, kick mic and snare, however, often times they turn off the mics due to being too loud. Would compression or other techniques still allow for drums to come through main mix at a pleasing volume?
Lastly, could you post another followup video on ringing out monitors and further eq'ing once band is in place?
Thanks!
I would use the main outputs of the mixer and go directly into the EQ. It makes the most sense and is often recommended by the gear manufacturers. Cheers!
Great thanks!! Got a triple header this weekend at 3 different venues, ill be testing this out for sure. Thanks again, hope to see some more vids soon!! ( maybe one on compressors....) take care!!
Yes. This is how you PROPERLY ring out a pa for a band/solo artist. Forget the RTA's, you HAVE to bring it to the point of feedback to find the trouble spots. Because, feedback is the #1 problem you will be dreading when mixing. Not the tone of the speakers/instruments (EQ), or how we'll you get it mixed. It's feedback.
Hei bacon, it was really a new approach to me when u cranked up the annoying fader to isolate it.Hv been normally bringing it down to eliminate or trace that feedback.Thanks, geart tip.
@bacontrees
My mackie mixer is the CFX20.mkII and behringer is the EURORACK MX1804X. But the problem is that the only mic that gives feedback is the main vocal mic so thought that sending through aux would be better. Thank you soo much brother for your help.
1) I am at the board, within about 30 feet. I used to do it from the stage, now from the board (same results). I double check from the lead singer position. 2) I pan hard right, then left, it's the easiest for that system. Cheers!
1) Churches are notorious for long reverb times, so compression may not help a lot - loud is loud. I would dip some mids on the drums and maybe roll off some highs, but let the bass come through and turn it up just a bit over stage volume.
2) The best I can do is shadow a mixer at the club and see how they tweak the channels for each instrument. Good idea, though, I will try to arrange it!
This is a great intro to the subject because it's a true demonstration by a working sound guy in a real venue! No fluff or jargon, just the really hearing and seeing the basic principles, I can get started on this with confidence.
Great vid for a mic/playback scenario. However you base your entire sound system eq with one mic? What about the drum mics and other instrument mics? What about analysing the room? I don't want to be negative, but there is ALOT more to ringing out your sound system than just this. But great intro to live sound though man!
Thanks for the reply - I've tried it many ways and always ended up with the same results. I prefer to use the lead vocal mic to shape the sound, then put a high-pass on all vocal mics, then I absolutely double check that all other mics sound good - and they always do. If I need to tweak other mics, I then fine-tune with their channel strip EQ's. I've had access to an RTA through the DBX Drive Rack and tried it out a few times, but didn't like the results, so I went back to using an SM58. In the end, if the vocals sound loud and clear, and I can control all other channels and they sound great, it's all good. This method comes from years of trying different things...
bacontrees ...what I find funny is that every time I have come in for a sound shift, in whatever club, the FOH EQ's and Monitr EQ's were always, always different. Partly because of the different sound people and partly because of the 'on-the-fly' tweaks of the EQ's during a show. Thanks for asking because it inspires me to make another video with the info I just shared...cheers!
this is a great video, would be interesting to see a video using a slow sine wave sweep in the room to treat for any resonant frequencies, I'm looking to study different techniques for doing this as you`ll know within a room if there are reflections of frequencies becuase of the materials in a room some may be absorbing and some may be amplifying, it's an interesting science I can almost visualize and imagine and often hear in some rooms. even once setup and fine tuned for the room then there is the element that people have yet to come into the room but this can be adapted on the fly I'd imagine once the room fills up if they absorb, but setting up beforehand I'd imagine may a good starting point before a show starts. Hope you can reply with some advice @bacontrees :) thank you once again for this informative video.
very useful approach to ringing out a system , step by step , i enjoyed watching this and i will enjoy using it live
do you use that eq in line with the mixer and you amplifer?
Yes, I choose the 'in line' set up. Some choose the 'insert' method. I base the entire mix on the lead vocal mic, so the EQ is set to the vocal mic's response, then I check that music playback (from a good reference track) plays back to sound good. BUT, the EQ'ing is not at all radical, just enough to get rid of problems.
First, ring out any problem frequencies, then cut anything that takes away from a natural sounding vocal. A CD is great for further shaping the the of the system.
so many "sound guys" should watch this....
Hahhahahaha
so true, I used to play in a band and feedbacks are often our enemy, don't know what they do with those eq stacks
Ambient stage mics for live plays would be a different beast. Ringing out takes a whole new meaning with theatre. I would have a separate EQ (or EQ setting) specifically for PZM mics, or any other omni condensers/boundary mics. A combination of omni's (an array of 3 or more, depending on stage width) plus two shotgun mics between every omni, for a focused hotspot (marked with a small 'x' on the floor so the actors know where the hotspots are). The ring out will be more radical and time-consuming
Where were you standing in reference to the speakers? And when you EQ'd the right did you pan it hard right on the mixer?
Can I ask why you test left then right and not both together?
I do both sides just to compare when mixed together, as in some rooms, one speaker is close to a wall, or one is under an alcove or in a corner, so they may respond differently.
The venue actually had 3 consoles since I've been there - Soundcraft Ghost, Mackie and a G&L I believe. I never know what I'm gonna get, unless I rent/bring something. The technique is the same, but I agree - it's not the best. Cheers!
@bluetech7753 use the high and low pass filters to protect your speakers they never go off on my board.
Is there a sound file that plays each frequency separeted so you can hear each frequency and adjust the equalizer acordingly to see if it is lower or higher than it should be? I find it difficult to equalize with normal music...
So how does this work when ringing out ambient stage mics for theatre use? Would you turn all mics up to plus 5 and adjust all the gains until they feed back slightly before continuing as you have here? There'd be no way to check with an input signal unless you had someone parading around a stage shouting at you...
... what do you think?
great video.
What I don't get though is why you don't level out the mic channel strip's GAIN first, so that you know how far up it is gonna be? setting it at "12 o clock position" seems pretty arbitrary to me. or isn't it?
Thanks for the compliment! In answer to your question, I adjust the gain last so I can maintain +5dB fader setting for the loudest vocal mic (if needed), without feedback and with clean sound. When the amps match the speakers, and turned up between 75% and 100%, and the console master out is at 0dB and channel fader at +5dB, I usually end up with the mic trim somewhere between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. This holds true for just about every gig I do. Another method I had seen was setting the mic trim to 0dB (via solo or PFL) and then adding the faders, BUT, I find that to be a scientific approach, based on electronics, not a 'by the ear' approach, based on acoustics. I prefer the latter. Since I only use modest compression, the lead (or loudest) vocal can be very dynamic and setting the mic trim (or gain) to 0dB doesn't really account for peak headroom. Anyway, I've tried it many different ways and this method works for me. Also note - I cut lower mids, modestly, and use very little compression, as I prefer to gain-ride vocals as well. Cheers!
What should be the signal chain to connect the power amps, graphic EQ, and speakers?
+Joseph Longo a couple of possibilities include: 1) "in line" - mixer out to EQ to X-over to amps to speakers 2) "insert" - EQ inserted to master out on mixer to X-over to amps to speakers 3) when using powered speakers - either of the above signal paths, but no X-over (built into powered speaker) and no amp (built in as well). Let me know if this helps...cheers!
very good Video, very helpful, I push sliders up if that frequency ring right away
I cut about 5-8 dB, slider up dose not ring right away then I cut only 5dB. it work very good
Is there any recommendation?
Thanks
How are you picking out the lower frequencies to cut back on?
I am 16 Years old and I have only done about 3 productions with live sound. One of the middle schools in my area was in a pinch and asked me to come in and run audio for there musical. We are running 16 wireless packs with the microphones located on the talents hairline(not ideal at all I know). I have a moderate knowledge basis on Live Sound and I was wondering if I could achieve the same thing using the parametric EQ on the Yamaha board I'm using.
Hi great video. I'm trying to understand why the frequency of the input signal (ie. voice into mic) doesn't seem critical for ringing-out. Is it because an average voice contains a big enough range of frequencies? For example, wouldn't a female voice have more problems with higher pitch feedback.
I've seen an engineer not even talk into the mic, just leave it open and wack up the gain until it feeds back. What do you think to this approach?
Finally, have you ever used automatic feedback 'destroyers' that can take a very thin notch out of the eq. If so have you found them useful?
+totaltotalmonkey good questions! Fisrtly, it is the transducers themselves that are interacting (the mic and the speakers), so a voice just represents a real world test signal that can actually start the feedback (very often, when I hold the mic, speaking into it will push everything to the point of feedback when it's 'almost' ready to happen). An individual voice (male or female) will usually require fine tuning on the channel strip EQ.
Some people just turn up the mic until it feeds back, but my approach offers more control as I just want to hear the 'potential' to feed back, or very mild ringing, so that I don't overdo the cutting of the EQ.
Very often, the bandwidth of the feedback frequencies is too wide for a steep, narrow cut, so I tend to leave the feedback destroyers off if I am working on a mixer or EQ that has them. Since reducing an EQ slider at the nearest ringing frequency is not cutting, but actually flattening the problem, I find the slider approach more beneficial. But, either technique can be used.
In the end, if the sound system sounds loud, clear and natural, with no feedback, then whatever technique used is valid. As long as the audience enjoys the show. Cheers!
+bacontrees Thanks for the speedy detailed answer. I like that your method doesn't until create as much loud ringing, and I'm going to try it in a couple weeks when I'm due to sound eng an event.
You're videos are great! I use driverack pa+ and use the auto eq to save time, but then have to go in search mode to find the feedback culprit during the performance. Many times, it's the band playing too darn loud and a loop feedback occurs.
I think I am going to go back and eq manually from my qsc touchmix (the mobile app for iPad comes in handy!).
I know this video is from 2011, but the only thing I would suggest is set a gain structure on the mic first before bringing up the channel fader.
Cool, I've been looking into the Touchmix, actually....is it a good unit?
Also, I set gain after the fader at +5dB, so that I can establish the loudest any vocal fader can be pushed during the show. I normally end up with the gain between 11 and 1 o'clock on the trim knob. I know some people set gain first, then fader second......we get pretty similar results.
As for the Driverack, that's good to know.....often a flattened system needs some further ring-outs during the show...cheers!
Regarding the touchmix, I like the flexibility of it. I can go on stage and make eq changes on monitors as needed using my iPad which is awesome! With the bands i frequently work with, I actually allow them to setup their own monitor mix from their mobile device on stage after I ring out the system / set gain levels.
I have the qsc touchmix 16 with six aux sends and two TRS aux sends which come in handy. However, if you like the touch of physical faders, i'd stick to a console that allows for that. The onboard compressors, limiter, reverb is qsc quality. Did I mention it is a space saver? I like it.
Thanks for the info, I am seriously looking at getting one.
thanks for the video On any board should the cross over or power amps be turned down enough so that the master can be run at unity?
Generally, yes. But there is some 'give and take' room to balance things out. Assuming the speakers are a good match for the amps, then you can back off the amps a bit and the X-over in order to run the console at unity gain. But then, maybe trimming down the gains to allow the amps to be at full volume sometimes works - depending on the set-up.
Can really hear the difference after the cuts, from muddy to clear, thank you for sharing this!
Thank you for your comment!
a question by the way, do you always run your set up stereo? can I go the mono route for small venue and set up? thanks!
Actually, I ran that system mono for years, until they got us another EQ. I actually preferred to mix most acts in mono, even with a stereo set up, at that place and others.....if a place has a wider room, I would pan guitars and toms a bit but not too much.
Maybe background vocals would be panned left and right a bit as well.
Are you using the eq's as inserts? Say I have 4 mics and I group them in a bus, can I use my eq as a bus insert so all 4 mics can be "ringed out"?, how are you running your eq's in this video? Inserts or main chain? thanks in advance
Thanks for the video. Would this change when room fills with people? I'm not a pro sound man. Just was the one band member who had to buy the PA and is responsible for setting up.
+Jason Smith - yes, the EQ may change, but the feedback control and naturalness (dipping low mids) would remain. What I mean is that the only thing that would change is that you may add higher frequencies that weren't feeding back (like 4kHz or so) because of the absorption increase, so EQ'ing is a great starting point. BUT, always go to the front of the room where the people are to check any changes as you may no need to do anything.
+bacontrees thanks for the info, I hate the sneers I got from an old full of himself one hit wonder guitar player the other night. I had a fairly large group leave just before end of show and wow did that change the sound a lot. Doing sound by default whilst other bandmates smoke their cigarettes lol.
The primary goal is to get rid of feedback, then the lower mid dip is to smooth out the overall sound. Once the feedback is gone, it's easier to shape the tone of the system. I find the lower mids usually have that boxy quality that needs smoothing out. So, same EQ for both procedures. Cheers!
Hello Bacon trees summer breeze buck buck whats up buck.....this is a great lesson. My only question is after you ring out your mains you set your vocal for the mix at Unity or keep it at the +5 DB?
Thank you for your videos and sharing your knowledge! Really I appreciate that you took the time to help out with a clean heart and good intentions. I had a question if anybody could please help, do you need an eq for for both a left and right channel? Also, what if there are a lot of vocal mics and you need to eq each one seperatly? Thanks so muchhh!
Parametrics, if you have enough, are good because you can control the bandwidth. Not so with the 31 band EQ.and the fixed bandwidth.
I would like how you set up the eq with the mixer please be detail i am new to live mixning i am using the behringer eurodesk sx2442fx how set up my eq to this like you did
If you have a problem frequency that's feeding back are you betting off generally cutting it with a wide or narrow shelf or Q ?
If I had a parametic, I would vary the bandwidth for the frequency, but I rarely had anything but a 31 band EQ for a live show, so knowing that the bandwidth of each 31 band slider is about 23% of the centre frequency, I can cut one slider nearest the problem or two sliders for a problem in between, but half as much, if the sliders are of the 'combining' type.
@@bacontrees So what would be the equal Q value or shelf value to 23% on a parametric EQ 2.3 ?
@@paul0771 The calculation of 23.2% bandwidth equals a Q factor of 4. Here is a great online calculator to figure out Q...
www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cutoffFrequencies.htm
@@paul0771 Q = 4.3 to be exact, with a 23.2% bandwidt for a 1/3 octave EQ.
@@bacontrees Thank you that's great it gives me a reference point now to match it to a standard 31 band graph if needs be.
Thanks for the info , Im going to try this at the next show, looks relativity easy and strait foward, I will let you know how it works , Thanks
Would there not be frequency cancellations/ misbalances between L&R PA as you’ve effectively differentiated the output levels of each frequency signal?
Hey bacon tree. I'm having a lot of trouble getting my pastors mic to behave. I've never adjusted a graphic eq, simply because no one has ever shown me how. But this video seems to be what I'm looking for. An additional question I have is, if I have singers, then a pastor speaking after that, which mic should I use to ring the system out, the pastors mic or the lead singers mic? Any advice is appreciated, thanks.
+Carrie Snide - Thanks for the question! No matter what mic is used, you must get rid of feedback....then, adjust the tonal quality to make it sound good with all vocals....1) get rid of feedback, 2) adjust quality by dipping some lower middle frequencies, 3) high-pass starting at 100Hz. 4) reduce some 3-5kHz to smooth out most vocals in most rooms.
I hope this helps, please send another question if I can be more detailed...cheers!
I appreciate the help. I've been doing sound for a long time for a couple different churchs and i can di some things very well but there is some stuff I was taught, "NEVER touch this!" I realize now that that is not always the case. I have watched a couple of your videos now and I'm impressed. thanks again.
+Carrie Snide - "never touch this" for audio people is an invitation to question methods....unless they set it up flawlessly at the start, which is rarely the case...systems always have to be checked for feedback and naturalness...let me know if can can be of any more help. I have some more videos coming out about this.
+bacontrees I thought of one more thing. What should the power amp be set at while doing this. Ours is currently set at around 75%. Does it matter?
They should be between 75% and 100% when matched to speakers....if your masters are at 0dB and your channel is set to around 0dB and your channel trim is between 11 and 1 o'clock, the amps will end up being between 75 and 100%. I start by setting amps to 100% and then get the settings I want from the mixer (EQ at 0), then adjust depending on my mixer settings.
My friend am in Uganda(East Africa) n I would like to purchase a full PA sound system for the church where I play from.Would u plz help me and advise me on wat kind of sound appliances 2 buy.secondly, how can i purchase them directly from abroad.
Wow! Big question...let me think on this...
Buck I have a question do you still have to EQ a sound system FOH if is situated outdoors?
+Lance Serutnev Think differently. You don't EQ a sound system. You tune it to the listening environment. EQ is just one tool you use to do that. An outdoor venue is still a listening environment, and the sound system needs to be tuned to that environment. Tune the back of house first by good speaker placement, balanced crossover and amp settings, etc. Then fine tune with EQ at front of house. Same as you would in an enclosed venue. The big difference is that you might find yourself boosting in areas that you would normally be cutting.
Yes! And very much the same as indoors, except with no standing waves indoors or harmonics of them.....the speakers outdoors will feed back, but the bass response will be different. I have made a video to answer this question which I will upload asap...cheers!
You set it to +5, do you then return the channel fader to 0? after you've done this?
Yes, if the vocal is loud enough...but I know I can push a vocal channel to +5 if needed...to fish out quieter passages, etc. All vocal mics will have the same gain, therefore, any one of them can be pushed to +5 if needed....it's a sort of fail-safe in case I need the extra volume. cheers!
bacontrees But only one vocal can be pushed to +5.
bacontrees Otherwise the combined volume would be too much?
Love this! I've been gigging for about a year and feedback is restricting us from upgrading, going louder, and really smacking the crowd in the face
I forgot to elaborate - every doubling of open mics results in 3dB less Acoustic Gain...so, by reserving a +5dB spot for a mic that needs more level, you can avoid feedback (or, in theory, 2.5dB for 2 mics). By setting the lead vocal mic as loud and clear as possible before feedback, everything gets mixed around it and feedback should rarely be a problem. Thanks for the question, let me know if I should add more to it...cheers!
man,
when I'm going to ringing out the PA system, as you describe above, what output on the mixer should I use to get a stable pattern of EQ? shoud I use main output (L/R) or maybe I can use main insert in mixer board?
thank you.
I think who ever made the negative comment on here had some point... for instance I like to pink the room and glance at an RTA. Use the graphic EQ on the console to get it flat, then use the parametric EQ on the L/R to set to taste with music. Once I've got familiar music sounding how it should then I ring the room. Ringing the room is important but it's not the only step.
+snapascrew I agree - a combo of ringing out the room and making the reference music sound good is a good approach. I have found that ringing out, then making my voice sound good usually results in the music sounding good. If the music needs a little help, I choose to use the channel for refining the EQ...
+bacontrees ya what you just described is how I approach wedges. ring then make me sound like me = awesome
your Left and Right are not the same eq settings? i think your FOH has an issue with speaker response...
Actually, one driver was replaced and also one FOH speaker is closer to a wall, so they respond slightly differently. When double checked on the stage, this still holds true. So, yes, the speakers are a little different. It was an old club.
Donnie Chaves or something in the building on that side that's different.
that's good !!!!!
Di Jakarta telah ada Sound System School, yang memberikan materi tentang mengatasi feedback juga. ada basic class dan advanced class.
Hi, i would like to know that you turn my the channel gain in the last step, so what is your gain structure/ gain staging? Thanks
THANK YOU for your response(:
I have 2 mixers setup and I am getting bad sound from my dbx eq.on my mackie mixer I have a two 1/4 ts cables going from main output of mixer to eq and then from eq to amp and then from amp I have xlr cables going to speakers. It is not sounding clear. There is a bit of hiss.On my other behringer mixer I have the aux send to my eq in and then frm my eq out to aux return. Using tr 1/4 cabls. when I raise the aux lvel feedbk occurs. Do i have something setup wrong?
Can you hook a digital eq such as a behringer deq to a graphic eq like behringer FBQ 1502 I think
what is the gain of your amps when you are making eq adjustment?
The amp gain depends on the speaker match. But, when the master is set to Unity, the channel to +5dB (to start, for ringing out), and the gain set to +/- 12 o'clock, the amp should be based on those settings.
Very informative! This is a video posted by someone who actually knows what they're doing. Thanks again
Thank you! Clear, straightforward descriptions of what you're doing. I'm just about to play with my church PA system, you've been helpful.
Thank you!
Do you have to have that many graphic eq units? can you use one for FOH and one for Aux sends?
This system is run in stereo, but it used to be mono, with only 1 EQ for the front of house mix - and it sounded great. The main monitor mix on stage is through a 31-band EQ and the drum monitor is only a 15 band EQ. I would for sure have a graphic EQ on each major output because of the open mics causing feedback and to clean up the sound.
We have a Dbx driverack. Is that, if used correctly, sufficient?
I'm guessing the answer is no lol
Well, the DBX Driverack can be used for feedback control and tone control via the internal EQ (or even flattening with internal pink noise), but it is a crossover as well, so it may be in the amp rack far away. or, if in the drive rack at the console (aka the effects rack), you can have it there but it is not as easy to fix problems on the fly...but they can work.
This is the best tune up chat I've ever heard. 🙌
Thank you! Cheers!
Thanks for the kind words, BTW!!
Good video, thank you. Seems like you want to use the same mic for testing that they will using for vocals onstage since they can vary so much in frequency response. Would you use a similar approach for monitors by using the test mic onstage (needing another person of course)?
David Collins Funny thing - I use the lead singer position for ringing out both the monitors and the FOH. I start at the mixer, ring out FOH (and monitors if they are within 30 feet or so,; further and I will just use stage position for monitors). I used to set the mic up on stage, turn up the fader, master, then increase gain little by little, running up to the stage with each gain increase. Until I got as loud as possible with no feedback (and clean sounding). I now start from the mixer position and double check on stage.
I use the vocal mic (the best I have available) to ring out and tune because vocals are the most important thing in a mix. I then fine tune each channel (if needed), including all vocalists and instruments. It is impossible to tune the system (major tuning, anyway) to a specific vocalist, so I use reference signals - my voice, 3-4 reference songs and maybe even a spoken word audio clip - just to get a great starting point before the show. Then I fine tune as I go. It always works. Cheers!
hey, just wondering, is the EQ only for stopping ringing frequencies? What about EQing the overall sound so that it sounds like a CD? Do you have another graphic EQ for that?
Personally I would do the test with the mic on stage. At control a would gently push up faders to ring out problem frequencies. Then If possible ask someone to speak into the mic while I have a walk around the venue and use the parametric eq to sweeten it up. Everybody has their own method!
Did the frequency adjustments just affect the mic or the entire system? If so, does each input have to be tested for ringing?
In this case, the entire system, which works well for most clubs and small concerts. I ring out the feedback and smooth out the tone of the best mic, which is assumed to to be used for lead vocals (singer, MC, comedian, presenter, etc). Then, every other channel is adjusted independently, but the 31 band EQ is affecting the entire mix. That is my approach and it has worked well at a few thousand shows so far.
Another approach is to route the vocals to a sub-group, then insert a 31 band EQ into that group so only the vocals are being EQ'd that way, leaving the main graphic EQ flat for other instruments (which will still need to be EQ'd).
Another approach is to play pink noise through a flat test mic and flatten the system, which I would totally do for critical listening in studio, or for tracking down huge problems for a live system (but I use my ears mostly and rarely have to 'pink the room'). Feedback can still occur, however, and will have to be controlled.
Since the SM58, Beta 58, Audix OM6 and other high quality mics all have similar responses (especially between 2k and 8k), the resulting EQ corrections will be similar (I have used all of them and have taken pix of my graphs for years). Now, if 3 singers have SM58's, and the lead singer has a Beta 58 (or something similar), I will ring out based on the SM58 and fine tune the Beta58 on its own channel EQ (and do the same to all other channels).
All approaches will work if 1) it is loud enough, 2) everybody can hear and understand, 3) there is no feedback.
Hope this helps!! Thanks for the comment, and watching the video!!
Another approach is to smooth out the sound of the system (with the 31 band EQ), and a good reference track of music, voice, etc...then notch out the feedback with notch filters when using an open mic. One problem is that sometimes there are no notch filters available. Unless the mixer has a dual mid-sweep EQ with Bandwidth control, then you would have to notch each mic independently (or, if you have a set of notch filters built into a graphic EQ). Cheers!
hi thanks for the video i have 2000w xti crown amp i just want to use one 400w bin and one 300w top with eq and xover would the amp be to powerful thanks.