I re-read the whole series last year after more than 20 years. For me, the best things about the books are the world and lore, and the story being told. It's fantastic. My favourite is Sword of the Lictor.
Thank you for this review, Phillip, this book and Malazan are things that still intimidate me at this level, want to read more fantasy prior to tackling both. Your comments about the unreliability of memory brought back one of my professor's comments in graduate school when he said, "memory is reconstructed in the brain rather than restored." As you alluded to, our memories are reconstructed but not completely accurately as we would like to believe...
I love your discussion on how language affects our perception and how reliable it is at conveying human experiences and constructing morality! How Wolfe manages to convey pre-linguistic experiences of meaning through words (if I have that right) also sounds fascinating. This book sounds challenging and trippy. Glad to hear your thoughts, Philip!
"Exploring the experience of meaning through words before language alters meaning". Wow Dr. Chase, you've given me a new perspective on the book. I'm going to keep this in mind in my other re-reads. It's certainly true now that I think about it. Things we think we see in the world are reframed the more we understand the words Severian uses for them. There's this linguistic barrier between Severian's experiences of the world and ours and that contributes to what you said.
I'm very Glad you're reading this! This is my favourite sci-fi series (I tend to place it more on the sci-fi side than fantasy side in the end, personally), and it's simply phenomenal. The prose is so gorgeous, and the themes and allegory and depth are amazing. If no one else has said so, I have to add: make sure to read Urth of the New Sun too! I missed it my first time, because it isn't a part of Shadow and Claw or Sword and Citadel, but it truly is a coda- it ties many things up, and answers many outlying questions (though not without leaving a few of its own).
These books have been the only thing since reading Tolkien for the first time to approach the level of Tolkien, for me. I have some of my own writing that is heavily influenced by BotNS, but I’m surely no good imitator. Lots to think about! And you only touched the surface which shows how thought provoking it is. Cheers
So glad I waited to listen to this in the car...the kids got to hear all of the great info you shared on language and memory. Good learning experience for them. Great review. While it's a good book, it depends on the "sequels" to make it a great book...as well as to gain more clarity on how much is sci fi vs fantasy and magic. My first exposure to sapir whorf hypothesis in scifi aas Delany's brilliant Babel-17 ...a very interesting and fun read.
Oh thank The Great Bunny! I read The Shadow of the Torturer this past week and I have NO idea what I read either. What does stand out was that moment when I hit the word “client.” I’m desperate to hear what Matt etc have to say in the spoiler discussion. Wolfe is definitely doing something compelling, now if I only knew what that was….
Good one. Somewhat diametrically opposite to this is Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist" whose protagonist, Latro, forgets everything at the end of each day and needs to write of his experiences before sleeping so that he can learn who he is when he wakes up.
A great discussion of the theme of language in the Book of the New Sun! Speaking of language, I think that Gene Wolfe is inviting his readers to speculate on the etymologies of the words that are used in the series. I find it interesting that so many of the words are Greek in origin (archon, hipparch, Pancreator, etc.). Meanwhile, the name of Severian's sword, Terminus Est, is in Latin, but is said to derive from an ancient, dead language. It makes it seem as though the setting is based on the Byzantine Empire, a Greek-speaking culture with Latin origins, which is only fitting, since the series' plot and style are definitely "byzantine."
Yes, "Byzantine" in every sense of the word! Wolfe leaves a little note at the end of Shadow of the Torturer on his "translation" (yes, he pulls a Tolkien and tells us how this book is a translation . . . from the future).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I knew I was imitating Tolkien with the translation conceit, little did I realize I was further doing so with Wolfe, and even more closely, as my "Translation" is of a story set in our future. I go about things in a way unlike either of them, but the general notion is the same, even down to having a Translator's Note. I just hope I can pull it off nearly as well. Off hand, know of any other authors/books that have used this concept?
I'm told Severian is an unreliable narrator, and that this becomes clear as parts of the story are revisited in subsequent books. But are there clues in this book itself? I'll admit to missing them if so.
The clearest clue, I think, is how he keeps insisting he has a perfect memory. Especially when that assertion is followed by one of his own statements that he contradicts elsewhere. The fact that he’s writing from a current place of power also might make him suspect. And there are certain moments where he still seems very naive, like when he describes the picture of the moon landing without realizing it’s on the moon, which has been terraformed by his day and is green.
I am very much looking forward for reading this sometime. Sadly it won't be anytime real soon, I've just got too much I already want to/am in the middle of reading
The themes sound really interesting and I want to give it try, but is any similar to something like dune messiah? I somewhat struggle with philosophical Sci-fi
I have to say that I would consider Book of the New Sun very philosophical so far. I’ve read only the first Dune book, so I can’t compare, but my guess is yes. All the best, Ricardo!
Wolfe ups the ante becoming a self proclaimed unreliable author writing about an unreliable narrator. The language makes the series interesting and fristrating at the same time. But it all makes sense from a first person narration. So, do you think Mark Lawrence has read these?
I don’t know, but I’ll ask Mark Lawrence if he’s read Book of the New Sun when we chat for Dear Dr. Fantasy! More on that later! 😁 It would definitely make sense that he would have read them, but I also wouldn’t be shocked if he said no. Cheers, Eric!
Great analysis Philip! I respected the ambitious world building and use of language in The Shadow of the Torturer, but I didn't connect with the character of Severian so I didn't feel inclined to continue The Book of the New Sun. Gene Wolfe (alongside Frank Herbert and Dan Simmons) was an influence on aspects of Christopher Ruocchio's Sun Eater series, but I found the story and characters in Sun Eater to be much more engaging. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the rest of The Book of the New Sun!
Thank you, Jonathan! I anticipate that I’ll feel more connected to Severian as I progress in the series. We’ll see. Since I’ve read some Herbert and Simmons before, I’ll be pretty well prepped for Sun Eater!
I'm really glad I started this series, and I'm certainly enjoying book 2 so far, but I really wish I'd known going in that the tetralogy was originally written as one book. I was left feeling a bit unsatisfied by Shadow because the series' inciting incident doesn't happen until 100 pages in and it felt like the book abruptly ended after a side quest. But after finding out the series was written as one giant brick of a story, Shadow makes sense as the first piece of a much bigger novel. All that being said, the prose is beautiful and the way it constantly (and subtlety) makes you question Severian's narrative, even if you don't think he's outright lying, is absolutely wonderful.
Read this series last year, quickly became one of my favourites. It's a tour de force of the genre and in literature in general, I feel. Very modernist. And thank god for the Alzabo Soup guys or I would have been very lost. My favourite was the last one (Citadel of the Autarch) but Shadow comes in close second
I’ll be looking forward to the spoiler talks. I agree with what you’ve said here, but I will suggest that the characters are flat in much the same way that Fiddler and Hedge are flat in Gardens of the Moon. On re-reading, it may become more obvious that the “flatness” has more to do with the reader than with what’s in the book itself.
Excellent! I suspect you're right, and I also think, like Fiddler and Hedge, the characters in BotNS likely become more three-dimensional on a reread. Cheers!
Oh snap, I just recently finished New Sun and Long Sun! Currently reading Short Sun, can't wait to see what you think about my favorite series of all time. These books are insane
The prose is as good as you've heard. It's phenomenal. It's one of those books where you finish reading a paragraph and think "how the hell did he write that? Who comes up with this?"
I admire the prose. It's elegant without being difficult -- with the exception of the strange words that Wolfe deliberately throws in. These "made up" words are part of the point about language, but they can feel a bit alienating at first because the reader has zero context.
Very interesting discussion. I definitely went "what did I just read" when I dove into this book. I did find it hilarious that Wolfe basically spoils the entire book in the first chapter 🤣.
Extremely well-done review, Philip! The discussion around how language shapes our perception was very interesting. Sounds like some very weighty themes happening in this book, and I am interested!
Thank you, Johan! I’d be curious to hear your take. In some ways, I still feel very lost after Shadow of the Torturer, but I’m simultaneously intrigued to continue.
I dont know how many rpg swords ive crafted and named Terminus Ex. Enjoyed these books alot. This is now a classic or has been for awhile. I really do though enjoy his later books much more. I felt that they were better told stories. Latro in the Mist trilogy and the Wizard Knight books imapaticular. Thanks for this discussion though anout a fantastic author and on eof his fantastic books.
Loved this video! I was actually going to watch the other one, but you mentioned there were spoilers and I am considering reading the book. In any case, I loved the mention to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and made me think immediately of Orwell's 1984 and newspeak/oldspeak and the reasons they are enacted for. I liked the idea of languange as "tainting" the world, and I think that bilingual people experience it on a daily basis--like sometimes, you are speaking with someone who shares two or more languages with you, and the end result is hopping between them simply because the "right" word doesn't exist in one language but in another. Also the points on meaning before language were great, and the "it is a book that invites questions" led me to quickly add this to my TBR. Mind boggling indeed! Excellent, non-spoiler video! Thoroughly enjoyed it!
That’s a wonderful point about bilingual people, Livia. If you give The Book of the New Sun a try, I hope you’ll find it a thought provoking experience!
First of all, major kudos to you, Philip, to even attempt a review of this book. I barely made it through it, and came to the end ready to throw the thing across the room. As you say: "It is a bit torturing to read Shadow of the Torturer." Truer words. Imagine the irony of trying to tell a meaningful story about the inadequacy of language USING language. It's crazy...or, at least for me, crazy making. I'll check out your spoiler discussion on it, tho. Who knows? Maybe I'll be enticed to read the rest of the series.
Awesome. I highly recommend the video on this book by Media Death Cult, Shadow of the Torturer Explained? Questionmark. Where they walk through the plot and try to get a grip on what happened, without spoilers for the rest of the series.
This is one of the series that I hope to read in the next couple of years (I'm kind of swamped now), but I'm also afraid it's too smart for me. Lol! Wonderful review. 😊
It’s definitely not too smart for you, Stacy, but it’s not a book you read for the plot and forget. It demands that you think about it and, if you can, chat with people to try to get a grip on it. Cheers!
This book was awesome. When I was reading the final paragraph, I was like, "No way! That's too awesome!" My favorite thing about this book is just following a philosophical executioner in the dying age of the Sun. It's too sick!
You should also check out Jack Vance, The Languages of Pao. When you mentioned Sapir-Worf that was the first book that came to my mind. I’ve always wanted to read this series, and now I’m even more intrigued.
Well, I'm currently knee-deep in Gardens of the Moon thanks to you Philip! (I love it so far!). And it looks as though you've got this on my TBR as well.
An excellent series, have you read or will you be reading the Long Sun novels? The tone is different, but the material is great. It may be a hot take, but so far I have enjoyed it more than BotNS.
I'll be reading the four books of BotNS over four months, but beyond that, I have not made plans. I do think, however, I will most certainly be reading more by Gene Wolfe for the channel at some point. Cheers, Samuel!
TBoNS is meant to be read at least twice. Severian literally says this. so there is that. The Urth of the New Sun is required to finish the series. the best way to read it is as Severian, which is tossed out of a cloister into a mysterious and complicated world, trying to make your way and making sense. the entire book is written in the first person. there are NO objective descriptions or explanations of any sort. when i read it i was glad i was so steeped in science fiction lore, having spent considerable time in that particular cloister. there is a lot of ultra high tech lying about on the Urth, and 'things' brought back from the stars. be careful!
I have to agree with you and Severian that BOTNS should be read at least twice! Having finished, I also intend to pick up Urth of the New Sun at some point. Cheers!
Ha ha! I love linguistics, though I’m really most knowledgeable about historical linguistics (I’m a medievalist with a specialization in Old English) and am very much a dabbler when it comes to the rest. All the best!
This is one of those books that has been hovering around on my TBR for almost as long as I can remember having heard of it, and in part because you recently did this read, I figured I would give it a shot now too. Finished it a day or two ago, and I am still unsure how I feel or what I think of this book. Probably won't really have a solid idea on either of those questions until I have read the full series through once, if not a second time. Looking forward to the chance to sit down and watch your long discussion of it.
My UA-cam algorithm let me down and I'm seeing this a day late. This is the best non-spoiler intro I've seen on the book. This is such a fun series to wrestle with. I can't wait for your spoiler discussion so that I have some people help me tease out the low-down on this book for me. Thanks for a great video!
One nice thing is that, while they are not "easy" reads, the four books are relatively short. It will be great to hear your thoughts if you feel like commenting on future videos!
My first interaction with the idea that language influences our perception of the world was through a fantastic scifi movie Arrival. Its an adaptation of a Ted Chiang short story and it blew my mind. I am so excited to get to this after your review, your break down of the themes was fantastic! It sounds like an incredible book and ive heard from many people that BOTNS might be the best work of literature in thr genre!
I have a feeling you would enjoy Wolfe’s writing. While there are significant differences, there are some similarities to Mark Lawrence’s books. I hope you’ll enjoy BotNS, Ves!
I had no idea that this story dealt so much with language, that makes me a lot more interested in the story than I ever was before! Though it does scare me a bit to hear you say that you found this a challenging read, since you have tackled Malazan (which is notoriously 'confusing') with no problems and yet this one left you a bit confounded. We'll see when I feel brave enough to give this one a shot 🤣 Great review as always!
Perhaps the key here is to embrace the confusion and keep thinking about the read. Also, chatting with others or reading about the book (or watching BookTube videos on it) will enrich the experience, I think. Cheers, Esmay!
I've heard this book be compared to Proust and I was immediately intrigued to hear you would be reading it. Sounds even more awesome than I heard! I've long been fascinated with language/reality, and, in one novel I wrote, made a big deal out of the fact that the Green Knight is "the Glas Knight" in Welsh, and Welsh covers a spectrum of color. So, what color is the Green Knight isn't like asking who's buried in Grant's tomb? But someone has pointed out that it's one thing to say we can't talk without words and another to say we can only use words to talk about other words, where this deconstruction stuff ends up. But deconstructionists themselves are using words to convey meaning outside of their words: that there is no meaning outside of words. So, if that meaning can be connected with outside language, why not others? They've deconstructed their argument! LOL! Words can certainly shape perception, but they also express the same common, true feeling, or concept more or less exactly in communicating with others depending on the vocabulary. I guess the classic example is Greek, being more precise than English, has more words for "love," but people all experience friendship, romance, and charity even if, for us English talkers, it all comes out under one word, while the Greeks had philo, eros, agape, etc. Thanx for the analysis/review, Philip! You've inspired me to get that novel with "Glas" I mentioned above, which I became discouraged trying to get through trad publication a decade+ ago, into circulation at last through self-publishing.
Aww man I wish you had the hardcopy.. the difference is like 8 euros and I want to buy the hardcopy (I've got a digital copy) but I'm not sure how the hardcopy looks and is and there are no reviews of it.. in general there are so few videos on the new sun series.. only recently we suddenly have a bunch of videos popping up. I guess the zeitgeist also reached me
@@Signal_in_the_noise I almost bought the folio edition. It would have been my first folio book(s). Put it in my basket but then before I knew it I also put Dune and a bunch of other Folio books in my basket and was trying to decide which to keep and which one to buy another day.. and then I realized I was about to spend hundreds of euros on very pretty folio books, which would surely become an all consuming obsession and I wouldn't be able to stop buying Folio books. When financially that simply just isn't the right decision for me right now. Not to mention the shipping cost alone is twice the price of a regular anniversary/special edition and in fact the shipping cost is as much as some folio books are. So I closed the site instead. Hope to buy them in the future eventually. If I had the money to burn I would surely buy an entire libraries worth of Folio books, starting no doubt with book of the new sun and their stunning edition of Dune.
@@3choblast3r4 yah I try and snag them off eBay when I can…you can sometimes find them cheaper. I got TBOTNS for $120….on the folio website it would end up being like $230. I have Dune folio in the mail I got for $100…so still $60 cheaper. But yah either way it’s expensive. The Philip k dick short stories and Wolfe books are probably my favorites that I have. Folio knocked it out of the park with those. They can be hit or miss though sometimes.
To any Malazan fan craving that "fish out of water" feeling that series gave you, pick up Book of the New Sun immediately. It'll most definitely scratch that itch. The discussion of this book is gonna be insane and I can't wait.
I'm so glad you've gotten to this, it's a remarkable experience, but one I desperately to watch more smarty professor types talk about in much greater length, there's just so so much to it. I haven't watched everything, but definitely check out the videos on it be: Raf obviously, Marc Aramini, and Gregory B Sadler - Wealth of great stuff out there too.
Sorry to hear that, Chas, but I think you have plenty of company. As much as fans love this series, there are plenty of people scratching their heads about what they just read. All the best!
I remember trying to read this series as a kid, and back then I concluded that it was too meandering and boring. I have since heard great things about the Book of the New Sun though, so I've been meaning to give it another shot
I know I would have been completely stumped if I had read this as a kid! I'm fairly stumped now in some ways, but I don't mind that as much these days.
So you may have talked me out of this one......for now. Lately I have been reading Prince of Nothing/Aspect Emperor and Malazan. I'm probable going to need a smidge of a break from the more "confusing" type books. I love this critical breakdown of the thematics and it will be beneficial when I do finally pick this series up. Excellent job Sir.
a) I appreciate you trying to argue the foibles of language and memory are a core theme of BOTNS. Because, quite frankly, it's more than I got out of it, so kudos there. b) It's really nice to see fellow analysis-and-theming-centred bookworms/BookTubers. c) A few thoughts: I'm also pretty certain that, despite it being brought up again and again in such convos, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis remains, at the end of the day, just that: a hypothesis. I think it's certainly a valid take, within certain limits, but it's not the be-all-end-all of neurolinguistic analysis either. To cite your own example, and to further the discussion: do the Inuit see more nuances of snow because he learned the words for it? Or do the Inuit grow up being shown more nuances of snow and thus have a vocabulary to communicate about such experiences? It's probably a bit of both, but I certainly don't think it's just the former. As an autistic person, I also wonder if cognitive divergences in neurotype could bring interesting data to the table here, since not all humans think in words to begin with! A lot of neurodivergent people, such as myself, think in pictures or patterns, instead of or in addition to thinking in words... d) I think too much credit, or rather leeway, is given to Severian as an unreliable narrator. I don't think it justifies/excuses the degree of haziness/dreaminess/ambiguity the narration actually reaches throughout the story. Lolita also features an unreliable narrator, and I didn't find the story opaque or self-importantly bloated in the slightest. Then again, Lolita is my favourite general fiction novel of all time, and I didn't enjoy The Book of the New Sun at all, and am still a little salty I recently spent three weeks on it, to no real avail. 😆But yeah, grandiose exercises in symbolism only go so far, in my opinion, when your story-telling core suffers from it, and it is so idiosyncratic one can barely engage with it through theming, plot or characters... But then many do, and good for them I suppose. For me, however, it was a grand old failure! 🙃Curious to see what you'll make of the following two volumes.
Thank you for a) and b)! Also for c), and I'm pretty sure you're right about Sapir-Whorf, which is much debated. As you say, there's a complex relationship between experience and language in the generation of meaning, and meaning also occurs without language. As for d), I'll have to progress further in the series to see what I think of Severian. There is indeed a lot of symbolism, I think, in BotNS, or at least it feels that way right now, but I'll have to read more before I feel comfortable attempting to explain many of them -- and it's possible I won't get there. All the best!
A book that explores language and meaning and is somehow surreal -- that sounds like something this language obsessed surealistic painter could put on the tbr. Some of the themes you mention seem to incorporate not just linguistic but also psychology theories. But maybe that's just my wishfil thinking. Thank you for another very interesting review, Philip!
There's most definitely room for psychological theories in this one too, Angela. That said, I saw your reply to Paromita, and I agree with her that there are some disturbing scenes in Shadow of the Torturer in terms of the treatment of women. It's a fairly brutal world in general.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy With a series that has a torturer as the narrator I'm not expecting happy outcomes and pink fluffy unicorns. I also don't 'mind' if it has a function within the narrative. And while I agree that 'inclusion is not endorsement' there are some books where it is used quite unreflected and I find that my inner feminist has gotten a bit intolerant in that respect. I also find more and more the argument that is brought forward by some Booktubers ' yes it's brutal and women get a rotten deal, but oh the prose is so wonderful' rather irritating.
@@DoUnicornsRead I had a similar reaction as you unfortunately. I was by no means expecting exploration of feminist themes in a book like this (we have Mama Le Guin for that amirite? 😄) but it is very very difficult to constantly read about the objectification of female characters and their depiction as purely sexual objects (and the logic of unreliable narrator doesn't really work there). This is by no means any comment on reading the book - your reading and opinion would be highly valuable as Dr Chase says.
@@DoUnicornsRead I think I get it, Angela. I might not be too far behind you in regard to being tired of fantasy where there’s brutal treatment of women “because that’s the way things were”. It’s good to have some positive gender dynamics sometimes too, and even some empowered women!
@@Paromita_M Thanks for sharing your opinion on this, Paromita! Yes, Le Guin is in many respects still unsurpassed. It's also interesting that she was able to produce quite impactful books without constant abuse scenes. I could certainly read the series but I get the feeling it would be more as an academic exercise than for personal enrichment.
Great video as always,Philip! You mentioned the things you found interesting and what some potential readers might enjoy, or not, but did YOU actually enjoy the book? Is it an enjoyable read because its such an impressive unique work or was the story by itself interesting as well. It sounds quite philosophical which is right up my alley. Either way I am very excited to read it and watch your discussions, I am just trying to gauge a little. Basically every modern sci-fi writer I love has this as their all time favorite so I will be reading it soon. Cheers!
I'm not sure "enjoy" is exactly the right word, Clayton. I was uncomfortable with the amount of uncertainty in the story -- both because of Severian's unreliability and because the narrator keeps using words I have little to no context for. But I think that discomfort is part of the point, the linguistic uncertainty in no small way contributing to it, and I have the feeling I will get more out of this series as I continue to delve into it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for the response! I have heard it is more so the totality of it that is the masterpiece. Not the individual books by themselves per se.
Two follow-up points to what you said: I very much agree with the dreamlike quality - to the point where it almost felt like writing techniques used by authors in the magical realism genre! I also agree with the difficulty of fantasy/SF classification - The beginning reads like a medieval fantasy setting but then there are far future elements. Personally for me it wasn't fantastical enough to be fantasy and didn't have enough "science" in terms of facts or themes to be SF. So overall, I didn't really like it (the total 4 books to be clear) because of this constant deliberate obfuscation. Also this is my personal critique - the depiction of women in this book was just very difficult to read (granted its a misogynistic society and Severian has been raised in a particular way but still)
@@DoUnicornsReadSevarian, the narrator, grows up in a society that has no women and has no idea how to behave with them. He also makes efforts to present himself in the best light, while it’s fairly easy for the reader to see through some of what he says. And he’s a bit of an asshole. This makes the treatment of women in the series interesting, and Sevarian changes quite a bit with respect to them. Saying it’s misogynistic is an oversimplification.
I agree about magical realism, Paromita. The obfuscation is, I think, at the heart of the story, and it's uncomfortable at times. So, I think, is what happens to some of the women. Inclusion is not endorsement, as AP says, but I get that it can make a reader uncomfortable, which isn't always what we're looking for in a read.
@@duffypratt Thanks for that! This sounds a bit more like it has a purpose within the world building especially if we get some development in the main character arch. Because the themes sound really interesting.
@@DoUnicornsRead Sadly it went from "wow this is cringey" to "what the hell are you doing" (you = main character Severian just to be perfectly clear). This is no comment on the author's views, just the way the character is depicted in this novel is severely misogynistic (in my opinion) and kind of prevented me from appreciating a lot of other things that might be going on in the text. All just my personal reading experience of course.
“It is no nation that we inhabit, but a language. Make no mistake, our native tongue is our true fatherland.”
A good way to put it. Cheers, Andrew!
I re-read the whole series last year after more than 20 years. For me, the best things about the books are the world and lore, and the story being told. It's fantastic. My favourite is Sword of the Lictor.
I look forward to getting to Sword of the Lictor -- cheers!
Thank you for this review, Phillip, this book and Malazan are things that still intimidate me at this level, want to read more fantasy prior to tackling both. Your comments about the unreliability of memory brought back one of my professor's comments in graduate school when he said, "memory is reconstructed in the brain rather than restored." As you alluded to, our memories are reconstructed but not completely accurately as we would like to believe...
Yes, it's almost scary how unreliable our memories are -- especially as they are so integral to our identity. Ah, well. Cheers, Ghalib!
Severian has an eidetic memory and his recall plays a large part in the plot. i would recommend you jump right in. is engrossing as heckfire.
There's no other series on Urth I'd rather read, than Book of the New Sun!
Ha ha ha! Cheers, Anthony!
I just finished sword of the Lictor and i still barely know what's going on. Thank you for discussing it!
I finished the whole thing, and I still have plenty of questions. I’m glad you took something from the discussion!
I love your discussion on how language affects our perception and how reliable it is at conveying human experiences and constructing morality! How Wolfe manages to convey pre-linguistic experiences of meaning through words (if I have that right) also sounds fascinating. This book sounds challenging and trippy. Glad to hear your thoughts, Philip!
Challenging and trippy - perfect adjectives for Book of the New Sun! If you ever try this one, Johanna, I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts!
Huh. interesting concept. This just sounds really trippy lol.
It is indeed trippy!
Shadow of the Torturer: starring Jorge Luis Borges as Ultan the librarian.
Good call, Kalle!
"Exploring the experience of meaning through words before language alters meaning". Wow Dr. Chase, you've given me a new perspective on the book. I'm going to keep this in mind in my other re-reads. It's certainly true now that I think about it. Things we think we see in the world are reframed the more we understand the words Severian uses for them. There's this linguistic barrier between Severian's experiences of the world and ours and that contributes to what you said.
I have a feeling I could reread Book of the New Sun a dozen times and still get new things from it with every read. Cheers!
I'm very Glad you're reading this! This is my favourite sci-fi series (I tend to place it more on the sci-fi side than fantasy side in the end, personally), and it's simply phenomenal. The prose is so gorgeous, and the themes and allegory and depth are amazing. If no one else has said so, I have to add: make sure to read Urth of the New Sun too! I missed it my first time, because it isn't a part of Shadow and Claw or Sword and Citadel, but it truly is a coda- it ties many things up, and answers many outlying questions (though not without leaving a few of its own).
Thank you for the tip about Urth, Euan. I can already see why you love this series!
agreed. the Urth of the New Sun is required reading and often gets lost in the mix. it ties up some threads left dangling.
These books have been the only thing since reading Tolkien for the first time to approach the level of Tolkien, for me. I have some of my own writing that is heavily influenced by BotNS, but I’m surely no good imitator. Lots to think about! And you only touched the surface which shows how thought provoking it is. Cheers
Thought provoking is the best way to put it, Liam. I wish you the best with that writing -- sounds intriguing!
Ever read the Ghormegast trilogy ?
So glad I waited to listen to this in the car...the kids got to hear all of the great info you shared on language and memory. Good learning experience for them. Great review. While it's a good book, it depends on the "sequels" to make it a great book...as well as to gain more clarity on how much is sci fi vs fantasy and magic. My first exposure to sapir whorf hypothesis in scifi aas Delany's brilliant Babel-17 ...a very interesting and fun read.
Oh, those poor kids! 😁 I look forward to the rest of the series. Cheers, Mike!
Oh thank The Great Bunny! I read The Shadow of the Torturer this past week and I have NO idea what I read either. What does stand out was that moment when I hit the word “client.” I’m desperate to hear what Matt etc have to say in the spoiler discussion. Wolfe is definitely doing something compelling, now if I only knew what that was….
Ha ha! I have a feeling this is a read that makes more sense with time and cogitation. I’m looking forward to the discussion to help me along!
Good one. Somewhat diametrically opposite to this is Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist" whose protagonist, Latro, forgets everything at the end of each day and needs to write of his experiences before sleeping so that he can learn who he is when he wakes up.
Ah, that sounds like another surreal reading experience!
A great discussion of the theme of language in the Book of the New Sun! Speaking of language, I think that Gene Wolfe is inviting his readers to speculate on the etymologies of the words that are used in the series. I find it interesting that so many of the words are Greek in origin (archon, hipparch, Pancreator, etc.). Meanwhile, the name of Severian's sword, Terminus Est, is in Latin, but is said to derive from an ancient, dead language. It makes it seem as though the setting is based on the Byzantine Empire, a Greek-speaking culture with Latin origins, which is only fitting, since the series' plot and style are definitely "byzantine."
It is based on the Byzantine empire. Wolfe had confirmed in a 1989 interview.
@@tasosalexiadis7748 Thanks! I will look for the interview.
Yes, "Byzantine" in every sense of the word! Wolfe leaves a little note at the end of Shadow of the Torturer on his "translation" (yes, he pulls a Tolkien and tells us how this book is a translation . . . from the future).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I knew I was imitating Tolkien with the translation conceit, little did I realize I was further doing so with Wolfe, and even more closely, as my "Translation" is of a story set in our future. I go about things in a way unlike either of them, but the general notion is the same, even down to having a Translator's Note. I just hope I can pull it off nearly as well.
Off hand, know of any other authors/books that have used this concept?
@@TheGeekyHippie I can’t think of others off the top of my head, but I’ll give it a ponder. Best wishes with the writing, Glenn!
I'm told Severian is an unreliable narrator, and that this becomes clear as parts of the story are revisited in subsequent books. But are there clues in this book itself? I'll admit to missing them if so.
The clearest clue, I think, is how he keeps insisting he has a perfect memory. Especially when that assertion is followed by one of his own statements that he contradicts elsewhere. The fact that he’s writing from a current place of power also might make him suspect. And there are certain moments where he still seems very naive, like when he describes the picture of the moon landing without realizing it’s on the moon, which has been terraformed by his day and is green.
I am very much looking forward for reading this sometime. Sadly it won't be anytime real soon, I've just got too much I already want to/am in the middle of reading
It will be there waiting for you!
The themes sound really interesting and I want to give it try, but is any similar to something like dune messiah? I somewhat struggle with philosophical Sci-fi
I have to say that I would consider Book of the New Sun very philosophical so far. I’ve read only the first Dune book, so I can’t compare, but my guess is yes. All the best, Ricardo!
Wolfe ups the ante becoming a self proclaimed unreliable author writing about an unreliable narrator.
The language makes the series interesting and fristrating at the same time. But it all makes sense from a first person narration.
So, do you think Mark Lawrence has read these?
I don’t know, but I’ll ask Mark Lawrence if he’s read Book of the New Sun when we chat for Dear Dr. Fantasy! More on that later! 😁 It would definitely make sense that he would have read them, but I also wouldn’t be shocked if he said no. Cheers, Eric!
Great analysis Philip! I respected the ambitious world building and use of language in The Shadow of the Torturer, but I didn't connect with the character of Severian so I didn't feel inclined to continue The Book of the New Sun. Gene Wolfe (alongside Frank Herbert and Dan Simmons) was an influence on aspects of Christopher Ruocchio's Sun Eater series, but I found the story and characters in Sun Eater to be much more engaging. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the rest of The Book of the New Sun!
Thank you, Jonathan! I anticipate that I’ll feel more connected to Severian as I progress in the series. We’ll see. Since I’ve read some Herbert and Simmons before, I’ll be pretty well prepped for Sun Eater!
I'm really glad I started this series, and I'm certainly enjoying book 2 so far, but I really wish I'd known going in that the tetralogy was originally written as one book.
I was left feeling a bit unsatisfied by Shadow because the series' inciting incident doesn't happen until 100 pages in and it felt like the book abruptly ended after a side quest. But after finding out the series was written as one giant brick of a story, Shadow makes sense as the first piece of a much bigger novel.
All that being said, the prose is beautiful and the way it constantly (and subtlety) makes you question Severian's narrative, even if you don't think he's outright lying, is absolutely wonderful.
I am looking forward to the next three books to see if I get a better grasp on just how unreliable (and why) Severian is. Cheers!
Yeah, it’s a doozy of a reading experience! But I like your comment about allegory; I think we’ll have more to say about that on Saturday :)
I'm excited for the conversation, Paul!
Read this series last year, quickly became one of my favourites. It's a tour de force of the genre and in literature in general, I feel. Very modernist. And thank god for the Alzabo Soup guys or I would have been very lost. My favourite was the last one (Citadel of the Autarch) but Shadow comes in close second
I’m looking forward to getting further into the series and discovering what’s in store. Cheers, Pedro!
I’ll be looking forward to the spoiler talks. I agree with what you’ve said here, but I will suggest that the characters are flat in much the same way that Fiddler and Hedge are flat in Gardens of the Moon. On re-reading, it may become more obvious that the “flatness” has more to do with the reader than with what’s in the book itself.
Excellent! I suspect you're right, and I also think, like Fiddler and Hedge, the characters in BotNS likely become more three-dimensional on a reread. Cheers!
Oh snap, I just recently finished New Sun and Long Sun! Currently reading Short Sun, can't wait to see what you think about my favorite series of all time. These books are insane
Awesome! I’ve got a lot of figuring out to do, but it’s definitely an intriguing start!
How did you find the prose? I haven’t read it yet (it’s very high on the tbr!), but I have heard the prose is highly revered.
The prose is as good as you've heard. It's phenomenal. It's one of those books where you finish reading a paragraph and think "how the hell did he write that? Who comes up with this?"
I admire the prose. It's elegant without being difficult -- with the exception of the strange words that Wolfe deliberately throws in. These "made up" words are part of the point about language, but they can feel a bit alienating at first because the reader has zero context.
Very interesting discussion.
I definitely went "what did I just read" when I dove into this book. I did find it hilarious that Wolfe basically spoils the entire book in the first chapter 🤣.
Yes, I don't think the word "spoiler" applies very well to The Book of the New Sun. Cheers, Paromita!
Still looking forward to this series.
I hope you’ll get a lot from it, Curt!
Extremely well-done review, Philip! The discussion around how language shapes our perception was very interesting. Sounds like some very weighty themes happening in this book, and I am interested!
Thanks, Colin! Yes, I think it’s fair to say BotNS is thematically driven. If you read it, I hope you will get a lot from it!
Since you don't read wolfe, you only re-read him there's no way to spoil his work.
I got the first two books as a Christmas gift, and I really love language, so I'm now even more excited to dive into this!
Thanks for the review!
I hope you'll get a lot out of the experience of BotNS, Anna!
Excellent video. 🙂
Thank you, Diptanjan!
Excellent review! I want to give this book a read!
Thank you, Johan! I’d be curious to hear your take. In some ways, I still feel very lost after Shadow of the Torturer, but I’m simultaneously intrigued to continue.
Fascinating!
Thank you, my friend!
I dont know how many rpg swords ive crafted and named Terminus Ex. Enjoyed these books alot.
This is now a classic or has been for awhile. I really do though enjoy his later books much more. I felt that they were better told stories.
Latro in the Mist trilogy and the Wizard Knight books imapaticular.
Thanks for this discussion though anout a fantastic author and on eof his fantastic books.
Thanks, Andrew! I’m sure I’ll eventually read more of Wolfe’s books after I finish BotNS. All the best!
Loved this video! I was actually going to watch the other one, but you mentioned there were spoilers and I am considering reading the book.
In any case, I loved the mention to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and made me think immediately of Orwell's 1984 and newspeak/oldspeak and the reasons they are enacted for. I liked the idea of languange as "tainting" the world, and I think that bilingual people experience it on a daily basis--like sometimes, you are speaking with someone who shares two or more languages with you, and the end result is hopping between them simply because the "right" word doesn't exist in one language but in another.
Also the points on meaning before language were great, and the "it is a book that invites questions" led me to quickly add this to my TBR. Mind boggling indeed!
Excellent, non-spoiler video! Thoroughly enjoyed it!
That’s a wonderful point about bilingual people, Livia. If you give The Book of the New Sun a try, I hope you’ll find it a thought provoking experience!
First of all, major kudos to you, Philip, to even attempt a review of this book. I barely made it through it, and came to the end ready to throw the thing across the room. As you say: "It is a bit torturing to read Shadow of the Torturer." Truer words. Imagine the irony of trying to tell a meaningful story about the inadequacy of language USING language. It's crazy...or, at least for me, crazy making. I'll check out your spoiler discussion on it, tho. Who knows? Maybe I'll be enticed to read the rest of the series.
I have a feeling that this is a series that makes more "sense" as you engage with it. I hope to find out that's the case, anyway! Cheers!
Awesome. I highly recommend the video on this book by Media Death Cult, Shadow of the Torturer Explained? Questionmark. Where they walk through the plot and try to get a grip on what happened, without spoilers for the rest of the series.
Oh, yes! I need to check out that video now that I've read Shadow of the Torturer. Cheers, Jeroen!
This is one of the series that I hope to read in the next couple of years (I'm kind of swamped now), but I'm also afraid it's too smart for me. Lol! Wonderful review. 😊
It’s definitely not too smart for you, Stacy, but it’s not a book you read for the plot and forget. It demands that you think about it and, if you can, chat with people to try to get a grip on it. Cheers!
This book was awesome. When I was reading the final paragraph, I was like, "No way! That's too awesome!"
My favorite thing about this book is just following a philosophical executioner in the dying age of the Sun. It's too sick!
It’s definitely different from anything else I’ve read!
You should also check out Jack Vance, The Languages of Pao.
When you mentioned Sapir-Worf that was the first book that came to my mind.
I’ve always wanted to read this series, and now I’m even more intrigued.
Thanks, Paul! I’d love to cover some of Jack Vance’s books on the channel someday.
Well, I'm currently knee-deep in Gardens of the Moon thanks to you Philip! (I love it so far!). And it looks as though you've got this on my TBR as well.
I'm delighted to hear you're enjoying Gardens of the Moon, Dan!
An excellent series, have you read or will you be reading the Long Sun novels? The tone is different, but the material is great. It may be a hot take, but so far I have enjoyed it more than BotNS.
I'll be reading the four books of BotNS over four months, but beyond that, I have not made plans. I do think, however, I will most certainly be reading more by Gene Wolfe for the channel at some point. Cheers, Samuel!
TBoNS is meant to be read at least twice. Severian literally says this. so there is that. The Urth of the New Sun is required to finish the series.
the best way to read it is as Severian, which is tossed out of a cloister into a mysterious and complicated world, trying to make your way and making sense. the entire book is written in the first person. there are NO objective descriptions or explanations of any sort.
when i read it i was glad i was so steeped in science fiction lore, having spent considerable time in that particular cloister.
there is a lot of ultra high tech lying about on the Urth, and 'things' brought back from the stars. be careful!
I have to agree with you and Severian that BOTNS should be read at least twice! Having finished, I also intend to pick up Urth of the New Sun at some point. Cheers!
I'm a linguïstics student. The second you mentiond the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis you both convinced me and put me off completely because traumas 🤣
Ha ha! I love linguistics, though I’m really most knowledgeable about historical linguistics (I’m a medievalist with a specialization in Old English) and am very much a dabbler when it comes to the rest. All the best!
This is one of those books that has been hovering around on my TBR for almost as long as I can remember having heard of it, and in part because you recently did this read, I figured I would give it a shot now too. Finished it a day or two ago, and I am still unsure how I feel or what I think of this book. Probably won't really have a solid idea on either of those questions until I have read the full series through once, if not a second time. Looking forward to the chance to sit down and watch your long discussion of it.
I think I’ll be similar, Glenn - finishing the series will give some clarity. I’m interested to see how it develops!
My UA-cam algorithm let me down and I'm seeing this a day late. This is the best non-spoiler intro I've seen on the book. This is such a fun series to wrestle with. I can't wait for your spoiler discussion so that I have some people help me tease out the low-down on this book for me.
Thanks for a great video!
Thank you, Andrew! It’s definitely an intriguing start to the series!
Don't know how you read that paperback version. The font is very small and unreadable.
Being very nearsighted has its advantages - I can see tiny print up close! 😁
I loved all books that make up The Book of The New Sun. My favourite Sci Fi book ever
I'll be reading Sword of the Lictor soon and am looking forward to it!
Thank your Dr. Chase. I've been waiting for this one for a while
Thank you, Mathias, for watching!
Loved this review! You have me so intrigued to try this when I need a read to get me thinking and asking questions!
It's a puzzler, Ben. So, if you don't mind being in a limbo of uncertainty, give it a shot!
Confusing and fascinating; sounds perfect! 😁I love it when authors try to play with perception or even explain it.
In that case, buckle your seatbelt for this one, Jarrod!
This is great! I can't wait to hear all of your discussions about this, and I may just have to re-read the books as you do.
One nice thing is that, while they are not "easy" reads, the four books are relatively short. It will be great to hear your thoughts if you feel like commenting on future videos!
💜💜💜
Thank you, Mr. Rorosuri!
Great vid, I cant wait for the full spoiler discussion!
Thanks, Ethan - I’m excited to chat with Matt and Paul about this series!
Gotta be one of the most underrated fantasy series' I've read
I’m glad I’ve started to tackle it. I have a feeling there’s a lot more to discover!
My first interaction with the idea that language influences our perception of the world was through a fantastic scifi movie Arrival. Its an adaptation of a Ted Chiang short story and it blew my mind. I am so excited to get to this after your review, your break down of the themes was fantastic! It sounds like an incredible book and ive heard from many people that BOTNS might be the best work of literature in thr genre!
I have a feeling you would enjoy Wolfe’s writing. While there are significant differences, there are some similarities to Mark Lawrence’s books. I hope you’ll enjoy BotNS, Ves!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy so I've heard! Its on my 2023 tbr, it being a standalone helps a ton 😅
I had no idea that this story dealt so much with language, that makes me a lot more interested in the story than I ever was before! Though it does scare me a bit to hear you say that you found this a challenging read, since you have tackled Malazan (which is notoriously 'confusing') with no problems and yet this one left you a bit confounded. We'll see when I feel brave enough to give this one a shot 🤣
Great review as always!
Perhaps the key here is to embrace the confusion and keep thinking about the read. Also, chatting with others or reading about the book (or watching BookTube videos on it) will enrich the experience, I think. Cheers, Esmay!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Sounds like great advice, I will let you know my thoughts whenever I may get around to this one!
@@esmayrosalyne I would enjoy that - all the best, Esmay!
I've heard this book be compared to Proust and I was immediately intrigued to hear you would be reading it. Sounds even more awesome than I heard! I've long been fascinated with language/reality, and, in one novel I wrote, made a big deal out of the fact that the Green Knight is "the Glas Knight" in Welsh, and Welsh covers a spectrum of color. So, what color is the Green Knight isn't like asking who's buried in Grant's tomb? But someone has pointed out that it's one thing to say we can't talk without words and another to say we can only use words to talk about other words, where this deconstruction stuff ends up. But deconstructionists themselves are using words to convey meaning outside of their words: that there is no meaning outside of words. So, if that meaning can be connected with outside language, why not others? They've deconstructed their argument! LOL! Words can certainly shape perception, but they also express the same common, true feeling, or concept more or less exactly in communicating with others depending on the vocabulary. I guess the classic example is Greek, being more precise than English, has more words for "love," but people all experience friendship, romance, and charity even if, for us English talkers, it all comes out under one word, while the Greeks had philo, eros, agape, etc. Thanx for the analysis/review, Philip! You've inspired me to get that novel with "Glas" I mentioned above, which I became discouraged trying to get through trad publication a decade+ ago, into circulation at last through self-publishing.
Hooray for inspiration! I wish you the best with the self-publishing journey, which I am finding immensely satisfying myself at the moment.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Looks like you're off to a great start! I'll be getting my copy!
@@merleharris7485 Cheers!
Aww man I wish you had the hardcopy.. the difference is like 8 euros and I want to buy the hardcopy (I've got a digital copy) but I'm not sure how the hardcopy looks and is and there are no reviews of it.. in general there are so few videos on the new sun series.. only recently we suddenly have a bunch of videos popping up. I guess the zeitgeist also reached me
Yes, I think Book of the New Sun is getting some attention on BookTube at the moment -- very cool!
I have the folio edition…they are beautiful
@@Signal_in_the_noise I almost bought the folio edition. It would have been my first folio book(s). Put it in my basket but then before I knew it I also put Dune and a bunch of other Folio books in my basket and was trying to decide which to keep and which one to buy another day.. and then I realized I was about to spend hundreds of euros on very pretty folio books, which would surely become an all consuming obsession and I wouldn't be able to stop buying Folio books. When financially that simply just isn't the right decision for me right now. Not to mention the shipping cost alone is twice the price of a regular anniversary/special edition and in fact the shipping cost is as much as some folio books are. So I closed the site instead.
Hope to buy them in the future eventually. If I had the money to burn I would surely buy an entire libraries worth of Folio books, starting no doubt with book of the new sun and their stunning edition of Dune.
@@3choblast3r4 yah I try and snag them off eBay when I can…you can sometimes find them cheaper. I got TBOTNS for $120….on the folio website it would end up being like $230. I have Dune folio in the mail I got for $100…so still $60 cheaper. But yah either way it’s expensive. The Philip k dick short stories and Wolfe books are probably my favorites that I have. Folio knocked it out of the park with those. They can be hit or miss though sometimes.
To any Malazan fan craving that "fish out of water" feeling that series gave you, pick up Book of the New Sun immediately. It'll most definitely scratch that itch.
The discussion of this book is gonna be insane and I can't wait.
I'm excited for the discussion, which is being recorded this Saturday. Cheers, Jarl!
I'm so glad you've gotten to this, it's a remarkable experience, but one I desperately to watch more smarty professor types talk about in much greater length, there's just so so much to it.
I haven't watched everything, but definitely check out the videos on it be: Raf obviously, Marc Aramini, and Gregory B Sadler - Wealth of great stuff out there too.
Thank you, Zan -- I definitely need to do my homework on this one too!
Glad you enjoyed this Philip! The patterns of language are quite interesting, but overall it wasn’t for me.
Sorry to hear that, Chas, but I think you have plenty of company. As much as fans love this series, there are plenty of people scratching their heads about what they just read. All the best!
I remember trying to read this series as a kid, and back then I concluded that it was too meandering and boring. I have since heard great things about the Book of the New Sun though, so I've been meaning to give it another shot
I know I would have been completely stumped if I had read this as a kid! I'm fairly stumped now in some ways, but I don't mind that as much these days.
So you may have talked me out of this one......for now. Lately I have been reading Prince of Nothing/Aspect Emperor and Malazan. I'm probable going to need a smidge of a break from the more "confusing" type books. I love this critical breakdown of the thematics and it will be beneficial when I do finally pick this series up. Excellent job Sir.
A break from confusion is not a bad idea sometimes. If you do pick up Book of the New Sun, I hope you'll get a lot from it!
a) I appreciate you trying to argue the foibles of language and memory are a core theme of BOTNS. Because, quite frankly, it's more than I got out of it, so kudos there.
b) It's really nice to see fellow analysis-and-theming-centred bookworms/BookTubers.
c) A few thoughts: I'm also pretty certain that, despite it being brought up again and again in such convos, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis remains, at the end of the day, just that: a hypothesis. I think it's certainly a valid take, within certain limits, but it's not the be-all-end-all of neurolinguistic analysis either. To cite your own example, and to further the discussion: do the Inuit see more nuances of snow because he learned the words for it? Or do the Inuit grow up being shown more nuances of snow and thus have a vocabulary to communicate about such experiences? It's probably a bit of both, but I certainly don't think it's just the former. As an autistic person, I also wonder if cognitive divergences in neurotype could bring interesting data to the table here, since not all humans think in words to begin with! A lot of neurodivergent people, such as myself, think in pictures or patterns, instead of or in addition to thinking in words...
d) I think too much credit, or rather leeway, is given to Severian as an unreliable narrator. I don't think it justifies/excuses the degree of haziness/dreaminess/ambiguity the narration actually reaches throughout the story. Lolita also features an unreliable narrator, and I didn't find the story opaque or self-importantly bloated in the slightest. Then again, Lolita is my favourite general fiction novel of all time, and I didn't enjoy The Book of the New Sun at all, and am still a little salty I recently spent three weeks on it, to no real avail. 😆But yeah, grandiose exercises in symbolism only go so far, in my opinion, when your story-telling core suffers from it, and it is so idiosyncratic one can barely engage with it through theming, plot or characters... But then many do, and good for them I suppose. For me, however, it was a grand old failure! 🙃Curious to see what you'll make of the following two volumes.
Thank you for a) and b)! Also for c), and I'm pretty sure you're right about Sapir-Whorf, which is much debated. As you say, there's a complex relationship between experience and language in the generation of meaning, and meaning also occurs without language. As for d), I'll have to progress further in the series to see what I think of Severian. There is indeed a lot of symbolism, I think, in BotNS, or at least it feels that way right now, but I'll have to read more before I feel comfortable attempting to explain many of them -- and it's possible I won't get there. All the best!
A book that explores language and meaning and is somehow surreal -- that sounds like something this language obsessed surealistic painter could put on the tbr. Some of the themes you mention seem to incorporate not just linguistic but also psychology theories. But maybe that's just my wishfil thinking.
Thank you for another very interesting review, Philip!
There's most definitely room for psychological theories in this one too, Angela. That said, I saw your reply to Paromita, and I agree with her that there are some disturbing scenes in Shadow of the Torturer in terms of the treatment of women. It's a fairly brutal world in general.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy With a series that has a torturer as the narrator I'm not expecting happy outcomes and pink fluffy unicorns. I also don't 'mind' if it has a function within the narrative. And while I agree that 'inclusion is not endorsement' there are some books where it is used quite unreflected and I find that my inner feminist has gotten a bit intolerant in that respect. I also find more and more the argument that is brought forward by some Booktubers ' yes it's brutal and women get a rotten deal, but oh the prose is so wonderful' rather irritating.
@@DoUnicornsRead I had a similar reaction as you unfortunately. I was by no means expecting exploration of feminist themes in a book like this (we have Mama Le Guin for that amirite? 😄) but it is very very difficult to constantly read about the objectification of female characters and their depiction as purely sexual objects (and the logic of unreliable narrator doesn't really work there). This is by no means any comment on reading the book - your reading and opinion would be highly valuable as Dr Chase says.
@@DoUnicornsRead I think I get it, Angela. I might not be too far behind you in regard to being tired of fantasy where there’s brutal treatment of women “because that’s the way things were”. It’s good to have some positive gender dynamics sometimes too, and even some empowered women!
@@Paromita_M Thanks for sharing your opinion on this, Paromita! Yes, Le Guin is in many respects still unsurpassed. It's also interesting that she was able to produce quite impactful books without constant abuse scenes. I could certainly read the series but I get the feeling it would be more as an academic exercise than for personal enrichment.
:D
Thank you, Diego!
Great video as always,Philip! You mentioned the things you found interesting and what some potential readers might enjoy, or not, but did YOU actually enjoy the book? Is it an enjoyable read because its such an impressive unique work or was the story by itself interesting as well. It sounds quite philosophical which is right up my alley. Either way I am very excited to read it and watch your discussions, I am just trying to gauge a little. Basically every modern sci-fi writer I love has this as their all time favorite so I will be reading it soon. Cheers!
I'm not sure "enjoy" is exactly the right word, Clayton. I was uncomfortable with the amount of uncertainty in the story -- both because of Severian's unreliability and because the narrator keeps using words I have little to no context for. But I think that discomfort is part of the point, the linguistic uncertainty in no small way contributing to it, and I have the feeling I will get more out of this series as I continue to delve into it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for the response! I have heard it is more so the totality of it that is the masterpiece. Not the individual books by themselves per se.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Correct, it is best to consider it as a single novel in 4 volumes like lord of the rings.
They were written at the same time.
Intriguing. I haven't read this one, but your discussion reminds me of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.
Wolfe said his main influence for the world itself was Vance’s Dying Earth
I trust Liam to know about that! Cheers, Jeremy.
Two follow-up points to what you said:
I very much agree with the dreamlike quality - to the point where it almost felt like writing techniques used by authors in the magical realism genre!
I also agree with the difficulty of fantasy/SF classification - The beginning reads like a medieval fantasy setting but then there are far future elements. Personally for me it wasn't fantastical enough to be fantasy and didn't have enough "science" in terms of facts or themes to be SF. So overall, I didn't really like it (the total 4 books to be clear) because of this constant deliberate obfuscation.
Also this is my personal critique - the depiction of women in this book was just very difficult to read (granted its a misogynistic society and Severian has been raised in a particular way but still)
Misogyny? Ah no! And this sounded so good. But I seem to have developed an allergy against this stuff recently.
@@DoUnicornsReadSevarian, the narrator, grows up in a society that has no women and has no idea how to behave with them. He also makes efforts to present himself in the best light, while it’s fairly easy for the reader to see through some of what he says. And he’s a bit of an asshole. This makes the treatment of women in the series interesting, and Sevarian changes quite a bit with respect to them. Saying it’s misogynistic is an oversimplification.
I agree about magical realism, Paromita. The obfuscation is, I think, at the heart of the story, and it's uncomfortable at times. So, I think, is what happens to some of the women. Inclusion is not endorsement, as AP says, but I get that it can make a reader uncomfortable, which isn't always what we're looking for in a read.
@@duffypratt Thanks for that! This sounds a bit more like it has a purpose within the world building especially if we get some development in the main character arch. Because the themes sound really interesting.
@@DoUnicornsRead Sadly it went from "wow this is cringey" to "what the hell are you doing" (you = main character Severian just to be perfectly clear). This is no comment on the author's views, just the way the character is depicted in this novel is severely misogynistic (in my opinion) and kind of prevented me from appreciating a lot of other things that might be going on in the text. All just my personal reading experience of course.