I know that the republic had already broken down to violence in the streets and, if it wasn’t Caesar, then someone else further down the line would probably, inevitably, have dealt the death blow; but I will never miss an opportunity to shit on Cato. That idiot. He beat down and rejected any and all possible compromises between the Caesarian and Pompeyan factions in an attempt to drive Caesar into a corner where either civil war or political ruin would be the only choices left to him, and then he had the gull to act surprised when Caesar chose the former. He is the kind of person that the surprised pikachu face was made for, except tens of thousands of people had to die for his fsiled political calculus.
There were so many opportunities to prevent the civil war. So many potential off ramps to avoid the approaching calamity; and Cato squashed every. single. one of them.
This is our perspective as well - our video on the Rubicon crossing goes into this in greater detail: ua-cam.com/video/ukxPaWaNUWk/v-deo.html Cato was not just a fool but a terrible person as well, we're going to be making more content that knocks him down a peg.
Fully agree, the conflation is inevitable since Senates is so central to many modern republics but in reality it was just one aspect of the roman state and represented elite opinion
Regarding Caesar and Crassus, I'm reminded of something a Texas oilman supposedly said: "Get far enough in debt with a fella, and you've got yourself a partner."
Loving your videos man! Your topics are always interesting and well thought out. As someone who is more into the social/political history of Rome rather than the military history, your videos really provide something that is a bit lacking here on YT!
Excellent counter reading of the history. Not sure I"m convinced but raises valid questions and challenges assumptions about the Triumvirate and Roman politics
Have been busy with finals and haven’t been able to check in, but I saw your video on crucifixion did really well and I wanted to say I’m happy for you! You deserve all the success in the world!
Excellent research and argument. I have always had an issue when the contention was made that the first triumvirate had absolute rule over Rome in any way resembling the second triumvirate. Looking forward to watching more of your content.
Thank you! This one was a lot of fun to produce and we feel it gives some needed balance to the current view many popular historians take on the Triumvirate
So when pompey rigged the elections and openly murdered opposition voters during his consulship with crassus and arriving home to his wife in a blood soaked toga does give rise to an impression of ruling with an iron fist History civilis covers this occurrence fairly well.
Thanks! I feel that the rushed nature in which Roman history is taught can lead to a flattening of the content so that it is used to advance narratives that overlay with modern politics. Glad you enjoyed the video!
Refferd to as the conflict of the orders it began in the 500s b c and was cyclical. See stilico and his daughter Virginia and the decuviriri apius Claudius.
Because of the ubiquity of client-patron relationships in ancient Rome, these debts were not always paid back through hard currency but could be "repaid" through favors, political support and other considerations. By the time of Crassus' death Caesar was wealthy from the conquest of Gaul and had been in league with Crassus for so long that any existing debt had probably been repaid. In the event of a creditor's death the expectation was that his clients would look to his heir as their patron. Crassus' eldest son Marcus would actually emerge as a supporter of caesar during the Civil War so it seems the power dynamic changed and the debt had been paid.
Why would you be furious? It’s an academic discussion. Your emotional outburst and childish language is at once foolish and funny. Try acting like an adult. If nothing else your heart rate will improve.
@@quentinquentin6752 because most people who specialise in Roman and Eastern Roman History when it comes to the topics of the Triumvirates and the Tetrarchy tend to see it not as a historical discussion but as a political one, i say this as a historian, and discussion on that subject is almost impossible, Every time it comes up the room splits immediately, almost like if you placed die hard democrats and republicans in a room and told them to discuss the most controversial thing they could think about
The optimates were in short just limited pro-republic, as long as the system serves them. The populists though, might have had some great policy ideas, but only as long it served them. I think that landed plebeijans were not really much different from the more conservative gentry.
Excellent video and very well argued. Octavian signalled the death knell for the Republic, to my mind, though I think it was on life support up until then.
"Don't worry lads, it's just a quick campaign to boost my political career. These Eastern types should be easy pickings." -Crassus, before marching into Babylonia.
What you say is completely spot on but is more akin to making the picture clearer by removing mistakes and fleshing out detail than a complete reimagining of the truth. In modern democracies we have political parties that are akin to what they had, though more permanent in nature. Those formations do not in and of themselves are not out of the ordinary. Many countries have political parties that are highly influential or even dominant in politics, but they remain subject to the political processes of their nation. The issue with this alliance is not its strength its that the strength was turned on the political processes of the state. Both Pompey and Caesar would use their power to entrench themselves beyond the point of removal by normal political means. In modern day equivalences it would be akin to a party banning opposition parties from the political process for the purposes of retaining control. This is the point at which the Republic erodes. That path may have begun before these men came to prominence but it certainly continued with them. Even if they came to be in opposition to eachother. The triumvirate might not be a problem but the triumvirs would be. And yeah they generally were good at the job, thats great. Had the kings been as able as Caesar its likely the republic would not have arisen but you cant conflate the ability of one person into longer term national success
Excellent analysis and totally correct. Caesar convinced the fierce rivals to cooperate with himself to achieve their legislative goals; which were being blocked by a similar clique around Cato.
Awesome content! The only thing is that amicitia was pronounced quite badly. Remember that in Latin, every single letter is articulated and all c's are hard (in the classical pronunciation at least, that is). Hence, it should have been a-mi-ki-ti-a with the i after the last t clearly articulated! (Suffciently correct) Latin pronunciation is really easy to learn; I am sure you can find 20 min guides on youtube.
I don't think so. The moment Sulla marched on Rome was the moment that the Republic's fate was sealed. It just took another couple of generations to complete.
My opinion before watching was that the Republic was never fell, but failed so darastically it could no longer could fulfill the role of government. Thus the First Triumvirate and later Emperors were filling the vacuum left by its rotting institutions.
It started when legions starting to show loyalty to the generals instead of Rome. That was the beginning of the end of the Republic. And the generals started to smell power and so eventually the Republic fell.
19:37 You label the figure on the left as LEPIDUS, but he was the oldest one of the three, Lepidus must be the bearded older man on the right. Anthony the martial looking guy in the middle and Octavian the left. Still...Metallica reminds us to label no one :)
Crassus bankrolled Caesar, who became friends with one of Pompey's subordinates. So it seems reasonable that during the 60s BCE, maybe as early as right after the Third Servile War when Crassus and Pompey both camped their armies just outside of the city, Caesar worked to convince both sides to convene for a sit down, where a deal was hammered out.
One of our long term goals is to do a very detailed series on the oftentimes fraught relationship between Romans and Jews leading up to the great revolt. When we do that I"ll make sure to focus on this
@@tribunateSPQR Awesome, I'd also like to see more people talk about Gaius Cassius Longinus's dealing with The Jews during his two terms as Governor of Syria (and he seems to have been already there with Crassus) and Sextus Julius Caesar.
Well, Sullas attack on the republic could be mended but already weakened the republic. The first triumvirate built on the damage done. But even that could have worked out afterwards if there was not Octavian/Augustus following and building on the further damage done mostly by Cesar. So no, Cesar/Crassus/Pompey were not exclusive responsible for the death of the republic, but they further damaged an already weakened Republic and left something that could be easily destroyed
I always got the impression that Caesar respected the rule of law and truly loved the republic. It seems like everything he did was either for the people of Rome or the men that served him.
Julius Caesar and the Roman People by Robert Morstein-Marx has been a massive influence on me - he portrays Caesar as a largely typical Republican politician who just happened to be more successful than the rest
@@truedarklander it depends, being an Italian, I was taught the ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin, with soft Cs and US instead of Vs, which is the one the video is using
Well it’s not like the republic was representing the interests of the people. To be fair neither was the first triumvirate. The Roman perspective was “The reason Sulla did what he did is because that’s what happens when you allow plebs to have political rights!”
"Ah-mah-see-ta"? What a weird pronunciation, neither classical nor medieval. Either "ah-mah-ki-tiya" or "ah-mah-chee-tiya" would work, but this doesn't. It may seem trivial, but inaccurate pronunciation is disruptive to your listeners.
Its truly bananas how happy I am to not live in that time and place. Rome seems like hell. An empire of 12-year-old mysoginists all trying to one-up each other and win games of dominance. I did middle school and that was more than enough. If someone had a time machine and asked if I wanted to visit I dont think I would day yes. Keep me the hell away from that cesspool of an ancient empire. Very cool to learn about. But holy moly Id hate to live there.
Sorry but the way you pronounce "amicitia" is utterly wrong. You make it sound like a spanish word! It should sound something like this: a-mee-chi-tee-a
I had to bail after a few minutes even though the history was good. Could not abide the inexcusable mispronunciation of ‘amicitia’. Five syllables, not four. The first i as in ‘eat’ not ‘it’ and the second i as in ‘it’ not ‘eat’. Roughly ‘ammee-kitty-a’.
Did the First Triumvirate end the Roman Republic? Let us know what you think!
I used to think so! Now I'm not so sure....
The Republic was dead decades before the Triumvirate - they were just the first to realize it
I know that the republic had already broken down to violence in the streets and, if it wasn’t Caesar, then someone else further down the line would probably, inevitably, have dealt the death blow; but I will never miss an opportunity to shit on Cato. That idiot. He beat down and rejected any and all possible compromises between the Caesarian and Pompeyan factions in an attempt to drive Caesar into a corner where either civil war or political ruin would be the only choices left to him, and then he had the gull to act surprised when Caesar chose the former. He is the kind of person that the surprised pikachu face was made for, except tens of thousands of people had to die for his fsiled political calculus.
There were so many opportunities to prevent the civil war. So many potential off ramps to avoid the approaching calamity; and Cato squashed every. single. one of them.
This is our perspective as well - our video on the Rubicon crossing goes into this in greater detail: ua-cam.com/video/ukxPaWaNUWk/v-deo.html
Cato was not just a fool but a terrible person as well, we're going to be making more content that knocks him down a peg.
One of the worst mistakes people make about this period of history is conflating "The Senate" with "The Republic".
Fully agree, the conflation is inevitable since Senates is so central to many modern republics but in reality it was just one aspect of the roman state and represented elite opinion
My Guy they Senate was vital in rome
@@laisphinto6372 and super corrupt. Instead of serving the people they served themselves
@@tribunateSPQR One question how comparable are the 19th-century House of Lords and The Roman Senate?
@@janvancura8412More comparable to the early 19th century House of Commons.
Regarding Caesar and Crassus, I'm reminded of something a Texas oilman supposedly said: "Get far enough in debt with a fella, and you've got yourself a partner."
Very true, eventually he'll have to at least stay out of your way so you can make the money back
Loving your videos man! Your topics are always interesting and well thought out. As someone who is more into the social/political history of Rome rather than the military history, your videos really provide something that is a bit lacking here on YT!
Thanks so much, glad that you find them useful! We try to focus on the everyday aspects of Roman life since that tends to be neglected on UA-cam
Great video honestly, I love your channel so far, very underappreciated but I know you will blow up eventually. Keep doing the good work.
Thanks so much! We’ve grown so much in the past week and it’s great to see the work paying off.
More exciting Rome content to come!
Excellent counter reading of the history. Not sure I"m convinced but raises valid questions and challenges assumptions about the Triumvirate and Roman politics
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent video - very well argued and an interesting counter narrative to the common assumptions of the era
Glad you enjoyed it!
Have been busy with finals and haven’t been able to check in, but I saw your video on crucifixion did really well and I wanted to say I’m happy for you!
You deserve all the success in the world!
Thanks! It's been a whirlwind but we're happy to see the latest reactions to our work
This is such a wonderful channel. Succinct, measured, and accurate as far as we can manage from this distance. Kudos
Thank you so much! Very glad that you have found this useful
CFBR.
This channel does a great job and I would really like to see it grow.
Thank you! Every comment, like and sun does that by securing the blessings of Jupiter Optimus Maximus (the UA-cam algorithm)
Would love to see a detailed video on Crassus - he always seems like he's so far behind the other two in terms of ability
We’ll return to the First triumvirate eventually and will have full profiles of each member so stay tuned!
Agreed, the only place he probably excelled was his ability to make money illegally via extortion.
Out of all 3, he was the best at chugging molten gold.
@@themetalone7739 🤣🤣🤣
@@themetalone7739 He likely still has the world record
Excellent research and argument. I have always had an issue when the contention was made that the first triumvirate had absolute rule over Rome in any way resembling the second triumvirate. Looking forward to watching more of your content.
Thank you! This one was a lot of fun to produce and we feel it gives some needed balance to the current view many popular historians take on the Triumvirate
So when pompey rigged the elections and openly murdered opposition voters during his consulship with crassus and arriving home to his wife in a blood soaked toga does give rise to an impression of ruling with an iron fist
History civilis covers this occurrence fairly well.
Excellent work as always!
Thanks!
Your channel showed up in my recommendations, and glad it did. Excellent content for a history enthousiast like me.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video! We’re just getting started and have lots of interesting stuff in the works
Good analysis!
Thanks! I feel that the rushed nature in which Roman history is taught can lead to a flattening of the content so that it is used to advance narratives that overlay with modern politics.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
The destruction of the Empire began with Marius and Sulla, in my opinion.
Oops, meant to say Republic, but heard Empire and typed it!
@@kimberlyperrotis8962the death of the Gracchi brothers
@@danielating1316was just gonna comment this lol
The civil sar between Marius and Sulla was the consequence of decades of violent political fight
Refferd to as the conflict of the orders it began in the 500s b c and was cyclical. See stilico and his daughter Virginia and the decuviriri apius Claudius.
Another banger vid
Thank you! Appreciate the positive feedback!
When Crassus died, was there any commitment for Caesar or any of Crassus' other creditors to re-pay his family or estate for outstanding loans?
Because of the ubiquity of client-patron relationships in ancient Rome, these debts were not always paid back through hard currency but could be "repaid" through favors, political support and other considerations. By the time of Crassus' death Caesar was wealthy from the conquest of Gaul and had been in league with Crassus for so long that any existing debt had probably been repaid.
In the event of a creditor's death the expectation was that his clients would look to his heir as their patron. Crassus' eldest son Marcus would actually emerge as a supporter of caesar during the Civil War so it seems the power dynamic changed and the debt had been paid.
The same Marcus Crassus who slew an enemy chieftain in personal combat?@@tribunateSPQR
Great video and well reasoned argument
It's a good one
thank you!
can't help but agree with you guys
I haven't watched the video yet and I'm furious about the idea of people attacking the first triumvirate.
Surprisingly common among people who accept Cato's version of events at face value
@@tribunateSPQR Cato threw a tantrum and off'ed himself so he wouldn't lose. He essential flipped the game board. Not to be trusted.
Why would you be furious? It’s an academic discussion. Your emotional outburst and childish language is at once foolish and funny. Try acting like an adult. If nothing else your heart rate will improve.
@@quentinquentin6752 I'm sorry to tell you this but the person was being sarcastic
@@quentinquentin6752 because most people who specialise in Roman and Eastern Roman History when it comes to the topics of the Triumvirates and the Tetrarchy tend to see it not as a historical discussion but as a political one, i say this as a historian, and discussion on that subject is almost impossible, Every time it comes up the room splits immediately, almost like if you placed die hard democrats and republicans in a room and told them to discuss the most controversial thing they could think about
The optimates were in short just limited pro-republic, as long as the system serves them. The populists though, might have had some great policy ideas, but only as long it served them. I think that landed plebeijans were not really much different from the more conservative gentry.
Interesting perspective
Excellent video and very well argued. Octavian signalled the death knell for the Republic, to my mind, though I think it was on life support up until then.
18:58 provides some further sad background to “HE WAS A CONSEL OF ROME!” 😢
This was an excellent video, puts into a concise and totally researched form what i have thought for a long time. Amazing!
"Don't worry lads, it's just a quick campaign to boost my political career. These Eastern types should be easy pickings."
-Crassus, before marching into Babylonia.
He went from always having gold on his mind to having gold in his mind
Great video!
Thanks! And thank you so much for all the support!
Great work!!
Excellent video...well done friend
What you say is completely spot on but is more akin to making the picture clearer by removing mistakes and fleshing out detail than a complete reimagining of the truth.
In modern democracies we have political parties that are akin to what they had, though more permanent in nature. Those formations do not in and of themselves are not out of the ordinary.
Many countries have political parties that are highly influential or even dominant in politics, but they remain subject to the political processes of their nation.
The issue with this alliance is not its strength its that the strength was turned on the political processes of the state. Both Pompey and Caesar would use their power to entrench themselves beyond the point of removal by normal political means.
In modern day equivalences it would be akin to a party banning opposition parties from the political process for the purposes of retaining control. This is the point at which the Republic erodes. That path may have begun before these men came to prominence but it certainly continued with them. Even if they came to be in opposition to eachother. The triumvirate might not be a problem but the triumvirs would be.
And yeah they generally were good at the job, thats great. Had the kings been as able as Caesar its likely the republic would not have arisen but you cant conflate the ability of one person into longer term national success
I'd say no, IMO it's marius and sulla. Marius through his military reforms, and sulla through his actualization of them. But that's very simplified
Excellent analysis and totally correct. Caesar convinced the fierce rivals to cooperate with himself to achieve their legislative goals; which were being blocked by a similar clique around Cato.
Profoundly interesting and engaging
thanks!
Great channel.
Thank you!
I suppose that is similar in my mind to the use of the “Byzantine Empire”. A term never used by itself nor anyone of the time.
Awesome content!
The only thing is that amicitia was pronounced quite badly. Remember that in Latin, every single letter is articulated and all c's are hard (in the classical pronunciation at least, that is). Hence, it should have been a-mi-ki-ti-a with the i after the last t clearly articulated! (Suffciently correct) Latin pronunciation is really easy to learn; I am sure you can find 20 min guides on youtube.
Thanks for the advice- as you can tell, actual spoken Latin has never been my strong suit
@@tribunateSPQR no worries :)
I don't think so. The moment Sulla marched on Rome was the moment that the Republic's fate was sealed. It just took another couple of generations to complete.
My opinion before watching was that the Republic was never fell, but failed so darastically it could no longer could fulfill the role of government. Thus the First Triumvirate and later Emperors were filling the vacuum left by its rotting institutions.
Pompei must have really liked Caesar’s daughter 😂
By all accounts it was a true, loving marriage.
The Republic of Cincinatus was long dead by the time of the first triumvirate. The stakeholders were transformed to indebted serfs.
👍👍👍
Three thumbs up for three of history’s best friends
It started when legions starting to show loyalty to the generals instead of Rome. That was the beginning of the end of the Republic. And the generals started to smell power and so eventually the Republic fell.
19:37 You label the figure on the left as LEPIDUS, but he was the oldest one of the three, Lepidus must be the bearded older man on the right. Anthony the martial looking guy in the middle and Octavian the left. Still...Metallica reminds us to label no one :)
I'm confused by _amicitia_ being pronounced "amacita". It sounds Spanish or something...
It doesn't sound like Spanish, it doesn't sound like anything at all. 😅
Spanish is decended from Latin
What was their hit single?????😅😅😅
the republic was doomed after sulla either way. better that a caesar or an augustus rose to power than say an Antony or Clodius in my eyes
More Like after the gracchi Brothers, sulla resulted from Gaius Marius
Crassus bankrolled Caesar, who became friends with one of Pompey's subordinates. So it seems reasonable that during the 60s BCE, maybe as early as right after the Third Servile War when Crassus and Pompey both camped their armies just outside of the city, Caesar worked to convince both sides to convene for a sit down, where a deal was hammered out.
Someone should make video on Crassus governorship of Syria and how he pillaged The Temple in Jerusalem.
One of our long term goals is to do a very detailed series on the oftentimes fraught relationship between Romans and Jews leading up to the great revolt. When we do that I"ll make sure to focus on this
@@tribunateSPQR Awesome, I'd also like to see more people talk about Gaius Cassius Longinus's dealing with The Jews during his two terms as Governor of Syria (and he seems to have been already there with Crassus) and Sextus Julius Caesar.
Is that written "amicitia"?
Very based and Caesar pilled
Ave, Caesar!
Well, Sullas attack on the republic could be mended but already weakened the republic. The first triumvirate built on the damage done. But even that could have worked out afterwards if there was not Octavian/Augustus following and building on the further damage done mostly by Cesar.
So no, Cesar/Crassus/Pompey were not exclusive responsible for the death of the republic, but they further damaged an already weakened Republic and left something that could be easily destroyed
Just because you're conspiracy does not succeed does not make it less a crime.
I always got the impression that Caesar respected the rule of law and truly loved the republic. It seems like everything he did was either for the people of Rome or the men that served him.
Julius Caesar and the Roman People by Robert Morstein-Marx has been a massive influence on me - he portrays Caesar as a largely typical Republican politician who just happened to be more successful than the rest
I don't know if you know, but it's not "amicita" (which sounds like a spanish per name), but "amicitia" (pronounced amiciTSia)
Also, hard C
@@truedarklander it depends, being an Italian, I was taught the ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin, with soft Cs and US instead of Vs, which is the one the video is using
@@ettorefassina356 that's not the classical pronunciation, that's the ecclesiastical, which ironically enough, is based on Italian
Well it’s not like the republic was representing the interests of the people. To be fair neither was the first triumvirate. The Roman perspective was “The reason Sulla did what he did is because that’s what happens when you allow plebs to have political rights!”
Sulla and Marius were the end of the Republic.
Very informative. But please don’t misuse the word “misnomer” like that in future videos.
"Ah-mah-see-ta"? What a weird pronunciation, neither classical nor medieval. Either "ah-mah-ki-tiya" or "ah-mah-chee-tiya" would work, but this doesn't. It may seem trivial, but inaccurate pronunciation is disruptive to your listeners.
This is, nonetheless, a fascinating, insightful study of the "triumvirate."
How ist your opinion always the exact opposite of Mine?
No, it's Octavius the son by heritage of Caesar!
Lore of Did the First Triumvirate Destroy the Roman Republic?momentum 100
Popeye, Crassus & Caesar
Amasita? Amosita? So you mean amicitia?
Cato did.
there were no legion inside rome only slaves and mercinary secutity guard rome senate must raised an army every time rebellion stir
Its truly bananas how happy I am to not live in that time and place.
Rome seems like hell. An empire of 12-year-old mysoginists all trying to one-up each other and win games of dominance.
I did middle school and that was more than enough. If someone had a time machine and asked if I wanted to visit I dont think I would day yes. Keep me the hell away from that cesspool of an ancient empire.
Very cool to learn about. But holy moly Id hate to live there.
Sorry but the way you pronounce "amicitia" is utterly wrong. You make it sound like a spanish word!
It should sound something like this: a-mee-chi-tee-a
Also wrong. There is no “ch-” sound in classical Latin, it doesn’t exist. “C” is always a hard “k” sound regardless of following vowels.
a.miːˈki.ti.a
I like your content, but I wish you would use Classical Latin, not this anglicized, sort-of “Latin”.
What's the difference?
what do you mean
I had to bail after a few minutes even though the history was good. Could not abide the inexcusable mispronunciation of ‘amicitia’. Five syllables, not four. The first i as in ‘eat’ not ‘it’ and the second i as in ‘it’ not ‘eat’. Roughly ‘ammee-kitty-a’.
The narrator gets a kink from saying a certain word guess what one ?
Invasion of india? In BCE 55? Lmao.
BC is the correct terminology. Alexander literally invaded India hundreds of years before this
@@theskycavedin wow, I triggered you twice in one sentence? nice.