I’ve always been partial to the idea that you described-that leaders hit on a near-perfect balance of corruption and civic pacification following a series of ‘secessios’. Good people were naive and taken advantage of by bad people. Tale as old as time and also as new as the headlines. And I hate to get all T.H. White about it, but the state of affairs seems increasingly eternal, or at least largely dominant on historical timescales. The arc of the moral universe may bend towards justice, but we spend a lot more time en route than we do at the destination.
Simple greed, as the system within the senate was a contest of popularity and ressources. The moment this delicate balance of power and interests was disrupted by a single individual gaining too much influence, the curtain began to descend. I am well aware that this is close to a type of decandence theory approach but let me demonstrate my thinking: When the Scipiones led the fight and later victorious campaigns against Carthage they accumulated so much fame among the Roman population that they could have done nearly anything and gotten away with it due to popular acclaim. Luckily for Rome the Scipiones were aware of their power and accepted exile. Another victorious Imperator did not - Marius. It was his fame, which broke the system and led to the conflicts, which brought forth the many men that would seal the fate of the republic - Pompey Magnus, Caesar, Cicero, Crassus et. al.
The mechanics of control and oppression have only gotten more effective with time, however we now live in an era when even those from the colonizing society are capable of recognizing the immoral nature of imperialism. It’s small consolation for the oppressed but I do believe the tides are slowly shifting
@@tribunateSPQRHeavy disagree. We're on the cusp of a new age of fully privatized imperialism. It started with the Dutch and British East India Companies and since then megacorps have only grown more influential. These companies lobby every government on Earth and just look at what the worst of them have done to South America and Africa especially. It won't be long until a major geo-polity falls de facto, if not de jure, to a company with too much to lose. All it takes is one military to side with a company over a nation and all bets are off. Hell you could argue we're already too late with the rise of corporate America. Wouldn't be surprised if nation-state are more of a loose concept in 100 years.
@@geordiejones5618 And what exactly will stop me, you and many others from reacting to that epic culmination of Capitalism? Let's hope we're not on the cusp of a new age of Imperialism, but a global class struggle, which for once, maybe we won't give up because of conflict weariness.
Thank you! It's tough to wrestle with the complexities of the past but we believe that its essential to do so in order to acknowledge the authenticity of those that came before us. Treating them as 1-dimensional cutouts is disrespectful to them and not helpful for us
An incredibly inspirational discussion on such an oft and widely talked about topic. Through this video, you have definitively immortalized your channel in my brain. Looking forward to more insightful, thought-provoking and very impressive content.
@@kalwardin5984 Sure - some of my favorites are: Julius Caesar and the Roman People - Robert Morstein-Marx Social Conflicts in the Roman Republic - P.A. Brunt Rome in the Late Republic - Mary Beard & Michael Crawford
Amazing video, keep up the great work as always. One of the best channels on Rome and of the few that do actual critical analysis and not a recount of the events.
Thank you, we feel that adding that extra layer of analysis is what makes history meaningful. There's no use in recounting names and events if we can't draw lessons from the past and use them to shape our future.
Jefferson wrote that slavery would teach the people that authority comes from force, and teaches each man to make himself a little tyrant. Interestingly, it seems at some point the United States reached a point where instead of expanding subjugation it expanded the franchise.
Admittedly it took the bloodiest war in American history to extend that franchise, and then roughly a century more of political and social reform to make it stick, but we did it
This is a very great video; very though-provoking. It'd be nice if more people watched it. I didn't expect the commentary on modern circumstances to come at the end but I'm glad it did.
This is a great video. Best analysis of the decline of the Roman Republic, and correlation with today, I have yet seen on the internet. Another video drilling further down on this would be wonderful.
Really a great analysis and explanation about the colaps of the republic, not many people could do this so well. Also, the detail of the blood in Augustus' (I think it's him) neck with the US flag it's just amazing
Good Point, I agree to an extent because Pompey in part lost the war because of the deference he showed to Senators. Pompey may not have tried to set himself up as Dictator for Life as Caesar did, but I believe had he won the war there would have been a settlement that give him a long term dictatorship similar to Sulla's position after the defeat of the Marians. The optimates wanted him to oversee the inevitable proscriptions and so stain his hands just as Sulla had. Robert Morstein-Marx discusses this in Julius Caesar and the Roman People, and his arguments brought me around to this way of looking at the Civil War
You guys should cover the severans and their authoritarian rule in contrast to the age of the Antonine's, Flavians, and Julio-Claudians and of course in contrast to the republic.
Of course, the repressive tactics Lenin and his clique justified as necessary to control “reactionaries” and “counterrevolutionaries” wound up repressing every Soviet citizen. Clearly, he struggled with looking in a mirror.
15:51 - In order to succeed where the Romans failed, the United States has to become the first empire in human history to voluntarily end its own imperialism & actually reconcile with its former subjects. A tall order, but not an insurmountable one.
I would argue Britain voluntarily ended its own imperialism. Partly because of the pressure from the United States but also because they couldn’t afford to maintain their empire.
@@Endocryne609 I would consider running out of money to be more involuntarily especially under the circumstances of being borderline obliterated by WW2. There definitely wasn't a change of heart on the part of Britain. The pressure from the USA is valid though Edit: Spain kind of voluntarily decolonized and stopped doing imperialism in the 20th century, so that might be a better example I just thought of
@@Botkilla2K12 True. But today Britain has reconciled and given up their empire. Voluntarily, involuntarily or maybe a bit of both either way they are no longer an imperial power. it is no longer in the culture and in the hearts of the British people to colonize and rule over others. And it was only 60 years ago they lost their empire only 2 little generations ago. I’d say that is tremendous progress. But I digress. All of your points are still very valid!
@@Endocryne609 and you made valid points too! Might have jumped the gun to say the US would be the FIRST to voluntarily end its imperialism. Just couldn't think of any imperial projects that ended without either the empire collapsing or being conquered. Not used to online discussions going this well!
@@Botkilla2K12 yeah perhaps I did jump the gun a little bit but I think you got the idea. Your ideas are solid and this was very enjoyable. thank you for sharing! 👍
You know, there's a saying that goes, "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." That's what's happening here. People have forgotten their history. And it all happens again.
Certainly - but as the republic collapsed and the emperors consolidated rule the administration became steadily more uniform. I also agree that exploitation was different in each province as it depended on factors such as local stability, resources available, overall wealth and proximity to Rome.
@@tribunateSPQR I was under the impression that this uniformization was generally more beneficial than harmful to the provincials though, as it more often meant that older, harsher and more arbitrary/random forms of exploitation were replaced with more stable, transparent and even "fairer" forms. Diocletian instituted a universal tax based on property value after all, one which at least theoretically made the rich pay more than the poor. Then there were the Imperial estates parcelled out to free smallholding peasant tenants and managed under the Lex Mancina, which was generally quite fair and even incentivized land improvements. I got this from a relatively recent book whose author I've forgotten, but I'll update you when I remember.
WOW. This content creator is good. The last few sentences had real impact, both the writing and the delivery. I get the impression that this guy might be a few ticks to my left on some issues… but that was some powerful and thought-provoking stuff (how colonialism inevitably ‘comes home’ etc).
The problem with the analysis of Rome imperialism is that it seems to imply Roman civilization would have lasted longer had it not been imperialist. Yes, perhaps the Roman Republic would have lasted longer had Roman Consuls been less interested in foreign spoils and more interested in maintaining the Republic form of government. But whether the civilization would have persisted longer had Romans not been brutal colonizers is an empirical not a moral or ideological question. Its possible Roman civilization would have disintegrated sooner than it did. When the video quotes that an imperialist society is already a sick civilization that an ideological and moral claim. We may agree with the claim but that's separate from an empirical claim whether imperialist societies are more or less likely to persist.
pretty interesting angle on the fall of the republic. i’m not sure how much i agree with the analysis at the end, its very generalized and the attempts to relate it to the modern day feel somewhat tenuous considering the semantic differences in ancient subjugation and modern neocolonialism - but, it’s appreciated food for thought. overall great quality though, i hope this channel gets more eyes on it.
Thanks - the comparison at the end had to use broad strokes as I agree that the situations are not 1:1 comparable. The goal is simply to get people thinking about what historical parallels are useful to modern discourse and which aren't
@@tribunateSPQR that makes sense, and thank you for your reply. while I personally don't tend to agree with materialist approaches to history, I can see their merits and do find myself interested in takeaways one can find using such an approach as a groundwork for historical analyses. It certainly does well at building parallels that may prescribe a potential future of our own society.
In one specific topic, I agree with professor Clifford Ando: the only scientifically useful interpretation of Scipio Aemilianus' famous quote is the geopolitical point of view. During the Republic, the Roman elite saw the geopolitical situation as a zero-sum game, where one city ate the other until there would be only one left. It was a game of survival as much as a game of conquest (hence, e.g. the Roman populus saw Julius Caesar's genocide of the Gauls as a very positive, good thing). The Romans of the republican era lived through the memento mori philosophy of life. The ideology/propaganda of Rome as Aeterna came only with the consolidation of Augustus -- of which the most symbolic act of his reign in this sense was the closure of the gates of Janus.
thanks - We don't want to be too cavalier in drawing parallels as there is a real danger to doing so, but many (such as the ones mentioned here) are so glaring that they must be highlighted
As someone who feels the boot on their neck in the imperial periphery, it always astounds me when people in the core don't realize that we are a laboratory. Often enough, I see protests in the US and Europe being attacked by police and I can see the same tactics they perfected ten years ago in our student protests being applied there. Drones, infiltrators and using media to divide the moviment between "peaceful" and "riots".
It's unfortunately true, it is one of the reasons why the west is so hesitant to give up its claims even when direct costs associated with occupation / support of neo-colonial regimes becomes costlier than the direct benefits recieved. THere is enormous value in perfecting oppression.
I agree basically with your thesis. But there is one question I would ask: isn't it just a fact that some people and countries are stronger than others? For example, Napoleon wasn't perfect, but actually, French rule under him led to greater liberties in parts of Europe. Jews, for example, often got full citizenship as a result of the Napoleonic empire. So isn't some of the development of empires and colonies really just an outgrowth of the dynamism of certain societies? France was a very dynamic society at the time of the Revolution and Napoleon. Rome was a dynamic society during the 2nd-1st centuries BC. I understand the Jews during the Maccabean period greatly appreciated the support of Rome against other enemies, particularly the Seleucids. So of course despotism is not in itself a good thing, and I don't think people's self-determination should be suppressed. But would it be appropriate to say that intervention of one country in another is always wrong?
Well Napoleón also reincorporated slavery, jews were treated well because gold and you need a shit ton of it to wage 20 year war, though the jews eventually sided with the winner as they always do
The quote from 14:37 made me think for a bit. Colonies in the Phoenician and Greek sense were more like city states founded in far flung lands to facilitate trade, whereas colonialism in the more modern sense was a race to to take over as much territory as possible without consideration of feasibility or even profitability. And it's a quote that I wonder if the writers of the Battletech setting thought about, because in that setting there is a sort of original sin in the Terran Alliance chasing those that had escaped Earth with early FTL travel and re-subjugating them. It ended with a military coup taking total control of the Earth's government followed by a series of escalating crises over the following centuries until the central government of the Star League was eliminated and the successor states started the most disastrous war in human history in which they routinely ravaged worlds with WMDs to deny them to their enemies.
Since you said the words though, when you say the US military is crushing popular movements abroad, which movement are you referring to? Also, speaking of crushing, does it have to be complete, or attempts counts too?
I was primarily thinking of US attempts to crush workers' movements in South and Latin America - some of which were successful and others which failed.
Very well said, high quality sociological and historic commentary. But the reason corruption and neocolonialism plague the modern world will always remain the same. Human nature will never change and greed and selfishness are part of it.
There's really nothing new in history, just humans making the same mistakes over and over - thankfully, driven by an optimism that things CAN get better, so there's always hope!
Agreed - Left to its own devices, history will often repeat itself. It's up to us to learn the lessons of history and avoid the fate of those who came before.
"For what the colonizer sows, he must one day reap." These are the words I wish all Americans would hear. We are entertaining a grand empire while the wellbeing of our nation suffers with mass immigration forming the social underclass. It's as if we learned nothing at all.
Quoting Aimé Fernand David Césaire on colonialism with the voice of deference to wisdom, is like giving deference to Ernst Kaltenbrunner or Reinhard Heydrich on the subject racism.
Imperialism HELPED the roman economy/state, the reason is because of the economics of agricultural states and commodity money. Aime Cesaire obviously never heard of the vikings, spanish, english, persians, egyptians, or islamic empires, all of which benefited massively from outward expansion and subjugation of their neighbors. Rome lost its freedom and became an imperial state because of the social effect of economic disruptions caused by long term wars and state manipulation of the economy (for aristocratic benefit). Has nothing to do with "colonization". Rome did not produce much for export besides glass because of a defacto state policy that stripped capital and land from the working class and handed it to the aristocrats that used slave labor to make large amounts of grain. This grain was then bought by the state to give to the capital stripped plebs so they didn't revolt. The overly wealthy elite, having nothing to productive to spend money on, bought luxury goods from India and China. This sent huge amounts of gold and silver outside of Rome. This shortage of money created debt for the lower classes and caused the state to mint less pure coins, creating inflation. You can see how large infusions of gold and slaves would keep this scam going. This flow stopped twice, the first time ended the republic, the second time ended the empire.
@@russellrhoades3044 yes I always think how we don’t see the cause effect and the drive of the whole Roman Empire game.. how it will be completely inhumane at this day and age.. it was always a mess for the plebs and the slaves.. plus they were improvisers not inventors.. I mean yes it was a great historical chapter to understand human behavior, power dynamics and how it has influence current political scenarios.. but it had to go ..
I agree it was awful to live in and had to go! Especially at the end. It scares me because western elites are doing the same thing. This is also why China is hurting. Elites don't realize most innovation/production is done by the middle class. They think only elites can do it, draining the capital of the middle class. This is also why dynasties only last about 150 years, they drain their economic center, have a revolt, rinse and repeat.
@@russellrhoades3044 I have been wondering about this forever and I finally have found an answer.. it is the basic human tendencies.. the vices - greed, hunger for power etc etc.. it is like snake eating it’s own tail.. it is a repeat pattern in any civilization
I see it as a flow of information type of thing. When society and economics were simple the aristocracy had the information and so justified their function. As literacy and information spread to the plebeians the aristocracy lost their social function and became reactionary. Ultimately the Romans were unable to solve this problem.
The expulsion of Tarwin Dynasty was the Tuscan who subjugated Rome for 200 hurndred years. Defining event in the history of Western Europe is incorrupted but rather it was the Roman defining history of Republic. The notion of the history of Western Europe was the notion of 19 century of Europe not this event. When Rome became powerful they destoryed the Greeks. So the Ancient Greek was not the origin of the West but the West is the derivative of the Ancient Greek. It is more corrected to say that The Rome was the origin of the West. As for the West it is the reset of the Greek. Rome basically destoryed the Greek by the time Augustus came into power. Greek was just the appearance without the essence.
Just not sure you can easily make the comparison to todays society in the way you try to do at the end of the video - the world is very different, but more importantly you are trying to mix what really seem like politically motivated points not historically derived points about our world - it’s always tricky when that happens - just my 10c but please stick to the history of else become a political channel …it’s just messy and I’ve seen it before where it becomes a bit of negative gravity for a wonderful channel
Only people who look into the future or that like philosophy have issues with the concentration of power, even if things are fine. Common folk don't care about politics, but only about living well. However, I don't think the issue is the concentration of power in one person, because then, they also suffered the concentration of power in a very small elite (which today is bank and financial elite), but the issue is the ability to access that power. No one outside of the small elite can access that power. Sharing power is useless as competition for power is itself a cause of corruption, but concentration in a single person is fine, if that person has fear of God.
Monarchy > oligarchy or democracy, as Darius proved. I hope we're not any different from the ancients and we make the same "mistakes" they did. HEIL CAESAR!
This is a remarkably boneheaded comment. The fruit of monarchy is kings like El Hechizado, the Spanish king too inbred to even function who required his servants to chew his food for him.
I quote: "a benefit to the provincial expansion: the creation of a permanent underclass of non-citizen allies with limited rights, and then later, the domination of subject provincials with none at all. This offered very little in the way of material benefits to the poor plebeians, but they could take pride in the fact that they now stood on a comparatively higher rung on the social pyramid. Not because their lot had improved, but because there were now even more people below them - then as NOW, the creation of a hyper-exploited underclass" - is it just me, or is this referring to the Democrats' turning a blind eye to illegal mass immigration in the US now?
Someone pls tell me the name of the instrument played at 0:02-0:03 seconds. I love how it sounds so much but I do not know the name of it. Much love if you tell me❤
What do you believe was the primary driver behind the collapse of the Roman Republic?
I’ve always been partial to the idea that you described-that leaders hit on a near-perfect balance of corruption and civic pacification following a series of ‘secessios’. Good people were naive and taken advantage of by bad people. Tale as old as time and also as new as the headlines. And I hate to get all T.H. White about it, but the state of affairs seems increasingly eternal, or at least largely dominant on historical timescales. The arc of the moral universe may bend towards justice, but we spend a lot more time en route than we do at the destination.
Simple greed, as the system within the senate was a contest of popularity and ressources. The moment this delicate balance of power and interests was disrupted by a single individual gaining too much influence, the curtain began to descend.
I am well aware that this is close to a type of decandence theory approach but let me demonstrate my thinking:
When the Scipiones led the fight and later victorious campaigns against Carthage they accumulated so much fame among the Roman population that they could have done nearly anything and gotten away with it due to popular acclaim.
Luckily for Rome the Scipiones were aware of their power and accepted exile.
Another victorious Imperator did not - Marius. It was his fame, which broke the system and led to the conflicts, which brought forth the many men that would seal the fate of the republic - Pompey Magnus, Caesar, Cicero, Crassus et. al.
Hubris
@@mariuslorson751marian sulla civil war def was the catalyst that sent the Republic into hell
@@vikingodin1986 certainly
It’s impressive how many of the underlying issues with the Roman Republic still plague modern republics.
It's incredible how colonialism and imperialism seems to operate fundamentally the same no matter where or when it takes place.
The mechanics of control and oppression have only gotten more effective with time, however we now live in an era when even those from the colonizing society are capable of recognizing the immoral nature of imperialism. It’s small consolation for the oppressed but I do believe the tides are slowly shifting
@@tribunateSPQRHeavy disagree. We're on the cusp of a new age of fully privatized imperialism. It started with the Dutch and British East India Companies and since then megacorps have only grown more influential. These companies lobby every government on Earth and just look at what the worst of them have done to South America and Africa especially. It won't be long until a major geo-polity falls de facto, if not de jure, to a company with too much to lose. All it takes is one military to side with a company over a nation and all bets are off. Hell you could argue we're already too late with the rise of corporate America. Wouldn't be surprised if nation-state are more of a loose concept in 100 years.
Indoctrinated neo-Marxist npc
@@geordiejones5618 And what exactly will stop me, you and many others from reacting to that epic culmination of Capitalism? Let's hope we're not on the cusp of a new age of Imperialism, but a global class struggle, which for once, maybe we won't give up because of conflict weariness.
It's human nature
The corruption inherent to any kind oligarchy is always unsustainable, great deconstruction of the impact.
Thanks, glad that you enjoyed it!
*cue the thunderous applause*
What I like about your chanel is that you provided link from past to present. In this way history and people far gone really became alive.
I appreciate that - in our opinion, that's the whole point of studying history. Otherwise it's just memorizing names and dates
Excellent. Lots of creators dance around this. You hit it in the heart. Well done.
Thank you! It's tough to wrestle with the complexities of the past but we believe that its essential to do so in order to acknowledge the authenticity of those that came before us. Treating them as 1-dimensional cutouts is disrespectful to them and not helpful for us
An incredibly inspirational discussion on such an oft and widely talked about topic. Through this video, you have definitively immortalized your channel in my brain. Looking forward to more insightful, thought-provoking and very impressive content.
Thank you! We bring this same type of analysis to all of our content so let us know what you think!
Tribunate, I love your channel so much, I just had to subscribe!
Yay! Thank you!
@@tribunateSPQRyour videos are great but can you recommend books on the roman Republic
@@kalwardin5984 Sure - some of my favorites are:
Julius Caesar and the Roman People - Robert Morstein-Marx
Social Conflicts in the Roman Republic - P.A. Brunt
Rome in the Late Republic - Mary Beard & Michael Crawford
Incredible video! Hope to see the channel grow
Thanks so much!
Amazing video, keep up the great work as always. One of the best channels on Rome and of the few that do actual critical analysis and not a recount of the events.
Thank you, we feel that adding that extra layer of analysis is what makes history meaningful. There's no use in recounting names and events if we can't draw lessons from the past and use them to shape our future.
Easily the best YT channel on this subject
Thank you so much! Though it is difficult to turn a critical eye to the past, we feel it is necessary to learn the lessons of history
Jefferson wrote that slavery would teach the people that authority comes from force, and teaches each man to make himself a little tyrant. Interestingly, it seems at some point the United States reached a point where instead of expanding subjugation it expanded the franchise.
Admittedly it took the bloodiest war in American history to extend that franchise, and then roughly a century more of political and social reform to make it stick, but we did it
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 God bless america.
Fantastic video. I went to subscribe, but I was already subscribed.
Glad to have you as a subscriber!
i love this channel, keep em coming
Thanks - got a big reserve of content that should be coming out on a weekly basis all summer
Excellent video, well presented
Glad you liked it!
This is a very great video; very though-provoking. It'd be nice if more people watched it. I didn't expect the commentary on modern circumstances to come at the end but I'm glad it did.
This is a great video. Best analysis of the decline of the Roman Republic, and correlation with today, I have yet seen on the internet. Another video drilling further down on this would be wonderful.
This is my new favourite channel
Thanks! Glad to hear you’re enjoying our work
You guys are my new favourite history youtubers
Really a great analysis and explanation about the colaps of the republic, not many people could do this so well. Also, the detail of the blood in Augustus' (I think it's him) neck with the US flag it's just amazing
thanks!!
Brilliant as always ❤
Thank you so much 😀
coming here on November 6th
america just gave up their republic
This is among the best roman history content on youtube. I srt it next to Historia Civilis, my long-time favorite.
Unsure if Pompey would've had one man rule if he won given how much he let senators boss him around (undermining his campaign)
Good Point, I agree to an extent because Pompey in part lost the war because of the deference he showed to Senators. Pompey may not have tried to set himself up as Dictator for Life as Caesar did, but I believe had he won the war there would have been a settlement that give him a long term dictatorship similar to Sulla's position after the defeat of the Marians. The optimates wanted him to oversee the inevitable proscriptions and so stain his hands just as Sulla had.
Robert Morstein-Marx discusses this in Julius Caesar and the Roman People, and his arguments brought me around to this way of looking at the Civil War
You don't see a lot of channels with names like "Tribunate" referencing Foucault or using historical materialism. Huge fan of your work here.
Thanks! These approaches are incredibly useful in my opinion for engaging with the past.
You guys should cover the severans and their authoritarian rule in contrast to the age of the Antonine's, Flavians, and Julio-Claudians and of course in contrast to the republic.
Great idea - I'm building towards a big series on the year of the 4 emperors and it will touch on all these topics.
Incredible analysis (and frightening implications)
Plebeians of all countries, unite!
more great work!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
With a thunderous applause
brilliant exposition! always thought something like this, but never organized the thought so coherently like this!
thanks!!
I see a lot of Lenin's theory of imperialism and labor aristocracy here. I like it. Good work comrade
Thank you! Imperialism may use different terms and weapons now, but the shape and the ideology never really change
Of course, the repressive tactics Lenin and his clique justified as necessary to control “reactionaries” and “counterrevolutionaries” wound up repressing every Soviet citizen. Clearly, he struggled with looking in a mirror.
@@JurzGarz nobody cares, sorry!
@@pao5567 Well, people who oppose tyranny and oppression (instead of just LARPing about it) care.
@@JurzGarz you don't know what theese vague and nebolous concepts mean
Solid analysis
This video and the moral lesson at the end is truly impressive. Thank you!
Glad you liked it! In our view the primary reason to study history is to find the moral lessons that can be gleaned from the past.
15:51 - In order to succeed where the Romans failed, the United States has to become the first empire in human history to voluntarily end its own imperialism & actually reconcile with its former subjects. A tall order, but not an insurmountable one.
I would argue Britain voluntarily ended its own imperialism. Partly because of the pressure from the United States but also because they couldn’t afford to maintain their empire.
@@Endocryne609 I would consider running out of money to be more involuntarily especially under the circumstances of being borderline obliterated by WW2. There definitely wasn't a change of heart on the part of Britain. The pressure from the USA is valid though
Edit: Spain kind of voluntarily decolonized and stopped doing imperialism in the 20th century, so that might be a better example I just thought of
@@Botkilla2K12 True. But today Britain has reconciled and given up their empire. Voluntarily, involuntarily or maybe a bit of both either way they are no longer an imperial power. it is no longer in the culture and in the hearts of the British people to colonize and rule over others. And it was only 60 years ago they lost their empire only 2 little generations ago. I’d say that is tremendous progress. But I digress. All of your points are still very valid!
@@Endocryne609 and you made valid points too! Might have jumped the gun to say the US would be the FIRST to voluntarily end its imperialism. Just couldn't think of any imperial projects that ended without either the empire collapsing or being conquered. Not used to online discussions going this well!
@@Botkilla2K12 yeah perhaps I did jump the gun a little bit but I think you got the idea. Your ideas are solid and this was very enjoyable. thank you for sharing! 👍
Proof that history matters
correct
You know, there's a saying that goes, "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
That's what's happening here. People have forgotten their history. And it all happens again.
Provinces were not monoliths though. There were client states and allies with serious self-government.
Not all provincials were exploited equally.
Certainly - but as the republic collapsed and the emperors consolidated rule the administration became steadily more uniform. I also agree that exploitation was different in each province as it depended on factors such as local stability, resources available, overall wealth and proximity to Rome.
@@tribunateSPQR I was under the impression that this uniformization was generally more beneficial than harmful to the provincials though, as it more often meant that older, harsher and more arbitrary/random forms of exploitation were replaced with more stable, transparent and even "fairer" forms. Diocletian instituted a universal tax based on property value after all, one which at least theoretically made the rich pay more than the poor.
Then there were the Imperial estates parcelled out to free smallholding peasant tenants and managed under the Lex Mancina, which was generally quite fair and even incentivized land improvements.
I got this from a relatively recent book whose author I've forgotten, but I'll update you when I remember.
Another fantastic video
thank you!! really appreciate the positive feedback
WOW. This content creator is good.
The last few sentences had real impact, both the writing and the delivery.
I get the impression that this guy might be a few ticks to my left on some issues… but that was some powerful and thought-provoking stuff (how colonialism inevitably ‘comes home’ etc).
The problem with the analysis of Rome imperialism is that it seems to imply Roman civilization would have lasted longer had it not been imperialist. Yes, perhaps the Roman Republic would have lasted longer had Roman Consuls been less interested in foreign spoils and more interested in maintaining the Republic form of government. But whether the civilization would have persisted longer had Romans not been brutal colonizers is an empirical not a moral or ideological question. Its possible Roman civilization would have disintegrated sooner than it did. When the video quotes that an imperialist society is already a sick civilization that an ideological and moral claim. We may agree with the claim but that's separate from an empirical claim whether imperialist societies are more or less likely to persist.
Wow, that's an excellent analysis of past and our times.
Thank you!
banger video. I need to read Cesaire
Thanks, Can’t recommend him highly enough. Caesar and Césaire are basically the two dads of this channel
tankie
pretty interesting angle on the fall of the republic. i’m not sure how much i agree with the analysis at the end, its very generalized and the attempts to relate it to the modern day feel somewhat tenuous considering the semantic differences in ancient subjugation and modern neocolonialism - but, it’s appreciated food for thought.
overall great quality though, i hope this channel gets more eyes on it.
Thanks - the comparison at the end had to use broad strokes as I agree that the situations are not 1:1 comparable. The goal is simply to get people thinking about what historical parallels are useful to modern discourse and which aren't
@@tribunateSPQR that makes sense, and thank you for your reply.
while I personally don't tend to agree with materialist approaches to history, I can see their merits and do find myself interested in takeaways one can find using such an approach as a groundwork for historical analyses. It certainly does well at building parallels that may prescribe a potential future of our own society.
Brilliant video, we need more lessons from history such as this time understand neo-colonialism and imperialism today.
Solidarity!
I love this channel now. It gives unbiased views about Roman History
ha!
In one specific topic, I agree with professor Clifford Ando: the only scientifically useful interpretation of Scipio Aemilianus' famous quote is the geopolitical point of view. During the Republic, the Roman elite saw the geopolitical situation as a zero-sum game, where one city ate the other until there would be only one left. It was a game of survival as much as a game of conquest (hence, e.g. the Roman populus saw Julius Caesar's genocide of the Gauls as a very positive, good thing). The Romans of the republican era lived through the memento mori philosophy of life. The ideology/propaganda of Rome as Aeterna came only with the consolidation of Augustus -- of which the most symbolic act of his reign in this sense was the closure of the gates of Janus.
Fascinating history- so many connections made
thanks - We don't want to be too cavalier in drawing parallels as there is a real danger to doing so, but many (such as the ones mentioned here) are so glaring that they must be highlighted
"Engagement!" -- Captain Picard, in some outtake probably.
Being compared to Picard in any fashion is the greatest honor of my life
Good vid
F. Keep up yhe good work.
Thank you!
As someone who feels the boot on their neck in the imperial periphery, it always astounds me when people in the core don't realize that we are a laboratory.
Often enough, I see protests in the US and Europe being attacked by police and I can see the same tactics they perfected ten years ago in our student protests being applied there. Drones, infiltrators and using media to divide the moviment between "peaceful" and "riots".
It's unfortunately true, it is one of the reasons why the west is so hesitant to give up its claims even when direct costs associated with occupation / support of neo-colonial regimes becomes costlier than the direct benefits recieved. THere is enormous value in perfecting oppression.
Beautiful video.
Ni dieu, ni maitre.
Thanks!
Beeidrückender Vortrag. Vielen Dank.
Tiberius is literally bleeding red, white, and blue in that thumbnail
Its the message
@@hansmohammed5486 I am aware, it's just funny
History repeating itself
I agree basically with your thesis. But there is one question I would ask: isn't it just a fact that some people and countries are stronger than others? For example, Napoleon wasn't perfect, but actually, French rule under him led to greater liberties in parts of Europe. Jews, for example, often got full citizenship as a result of the Napoleonic empire. So isn't some of the development of empires and colonies really just an outgrowth of the dynamism of certain societies? France was a very dynamic society at the time of the Revolution and Napoleon. Rome was a dynamic society during the 2nd-1st centuries BC. I understand the Jews during the Maccabean period greatly appreciated the support of Rome against other enemies, particularly the Seleucids. So of course despotism is not in itself a good thing, and I don't think people's self-determination should be suppressed. But would it be appropriate to say that intervention of one country in another is always wrong?
Well Napoleón also reincorporated slavery, jews were treated well because gold and you need a shit ton of it to wage 20 year war, though the jews eventually sided with the winner as they always do
The quote from 14:37 made me think for a bit. Colonies in the Phoenician and Greek sense were more like city states founded in far flung lands to facilitate trade, whereas colonialism in the more modern sense was a race to to take over as much territory as possible without consideration of feasibility or even profitability. And it's a quote that I wonder if the writers of the Battletech setting thought about, because in that setting there is a sort of original sin in the Terran Alliance chasing those that had escaped Earth with early FTL travel and re-subjugating them. It ended with a military coup taking total control of the Earth's government followed by a series of escalating crises over the following centuries until the central government of the Star League was eliminated and the successor states started the most disastrous war in human history in which they routinely ravaged worlds with WMDs to deny them to their enemies.
As a great man once said: "Ask NOT what your country can do for you, ask what your country is DOING to you!"
Since you said the words though, when you say the US military is crushing popular movements abroad, which movement are you referring to? Also, speaking of crushing, does it have to be complete, or attempts counts too?
I was primarily thinking of US attempts to crush workers' movements in South and Latin America - some of which were successful and others which failed.
@@tribunateSPQR That was mostly the CIA, though, wasn't it? Or at least they took the lead. Well, of course, there is also Panama...
Very well said, high quality sociological and historic commentary. But the reason corruption and neocolonialism plague the modern world will always remain the same. Human nature will never change and greed and selfishness are part of it.
Wow great video! Just in time for my politics of the late republic a level exam in a couple days 🥹
Good luck on the exams! Hopefully my content was able to help just a little
Spitting truth at the end there
He said the word, he said the word! And the wholeass origin story!
Our own business oligarchs would dream of such an arrangement here.
There's really nothing new in history, just humans making the same mistakes over and over - thankfully, driven by an optimism that things CAN get better, so there's always hope!
Agreed - Left to its own devices, history will often repeat itself. It's up to us to learn the lessons of history and avoid the fate of those who came before.
@@tribunateSPQRlol yes comrade, its only a matter of millenia before Marx can be proven right 😂
"For what the colonizer sows, he must one day reap." These are the words I wish all Americans would hear. We are entertaining a grand empire while the wellbeing of our nation suffers with mass immigration forming the social underclass. It's as if we learned nothing at all.
Well you won’t learn anything here!
yay :D
An antidote to the twitter style history so prevalent today.
If you do not see the parallels between what he is saying and the USA you just do not want to see it.
I see the parallels, and it frightens me.
Quoting Aimé Fernand David Césaire on colonialism with the voice of deference to wisdom, is like giving deference to Ernst Kaltenbrunner or Reinhard Heydrich on the subject racism.
Imperialism HELPED the roman economy/state, the reason is because of the economics of agricultural states and commodity money. Aime Cesaire obviously never heard of the vikings, spanish, english, persians, egyptians, or islamic empires, all of which benefited massively from outward expansion and subjugation of their neighbors. Rome lost its freedom and became an imperial state because of the social effect of economic disruptions caused by long term wars and state manipulation of the economy (for aristocratic benefit). Has nothing to do with "colonization". Rome did not produce much for export besides glass because of a defacto state policy that stripped capital and land from the working class and handed it to the aristocrats that used slave labor to make large amounts of grain. This grain was then bought by the state to give to the capital stripped plebs so they didn't revolt. The overly wealthy elite, having nothing to productive to spend money on, bought luxury goods from India and China. This sent huge amounts of gold and silver outside of Rome. This shortage of money created debt for the lower classes and caused the state to mint less pure coins, creating inflation. You can see how large infusions of gold and slaves would keep this scam going. This flow stopped twice, the first time ended the republic, the second time ended the empire.
Love this
@@pragatisupakar4858 thank you!
@@russellrhoades3044 yes I always think how we don’t see the cause effect and the drive of the whole Roman Empire game.. how it will be completely inhumane at this day and age.. it was always a mess for the plebs and the slaves.. plus they were improvisers not inventors.. I mean yes it was a great historical chapter to understand human behavior, power dynamics and how it has influence current political scenarios.. but it had to go ..
I agree it was awful to live in and had to go! Especially at the end. It scares me because western elites are doing the same thing. This is also why China is hurting. Elites don't realize most innovation/production is done by the middle class. They think only elites can do it, draining the capital of the middle class. This is also why dynasties only last about 150 years, they drain their economic center, have a revolt, rinse and repeat.
@@russellrhoades3044 I have been wondering about this forever and I finally have found an answer.. it is the basic human tendencies.. the vices - greed, hunger for power etc etc.. it is like snake eating it’s own tail.. it is a repeat pattern in any civilization
I see it as a flow of information type of thing. When society and economics were simple the aristocracy had the information and so justified their function. As literacy and information spread to the plebeians the aristocracy lost their social function and became reactionary. Ultimately the Romans were unable to solve this problem.
Letting oneself be ruled by one's belly rarely leads to a good outcome
The expulsion of Tarwin Dynasty was the Tuscan who subjugated Rome for 200 hurndred years. Defining event in the history of Western Europe is incorrupted but rather it was the Roman defining history of Republic. The notion of the history of Western Europe was the notion of 19 century of Europe not this event. When Rome became powerful they destoryed the Greeks. So the Ancient Greek was not the origin of the West but the West is the derivative of the Ancient Greek. It is more corrected to say that The Rome was the origin of the West. As for the West it is the reset of the Greek. Rome basically destoryed the Greek by the time Augustus came into power. Greek was just the appearance without the essence.
Like if ur watching this video after Orange Julius’ Inauguration
Lore of The Price of Power: Exploitation and the End of the Roman Republic momentum 100
you see we have to give the senate all the wealth and power because they are the job creators
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I'm getting the impression that this isn't a MAGA channel.
based
Would you look at that: socialist insight into Rome's history :)
Democracy was the foundation of Rome's greatness.
Engagement comment
Just not sure you can easily make the comparison to todays society in the way you try to do at the end of the video - the world is very different, but more importantly you are trying to mix what really seem like politically motivated points not historically derived points about our world - it’s always tricky when that happens - just my 10c but please stick to the history of else become a political channel …it’s just messy and I’ve seen it before where it becomes a bit of negative gravity for a wonderful channel
Those protesters are not innocent, bro.
Commenting
On your final thought there, Capitalism.
Lenin was a bad person fyi
Yes, marx wasnt, leninism is shit marxism is great
@@hansmohammed5486 "they just didn't realize REAL communism"
@@OrylliMerylli it's more like Lenin just wanted to get power not really create a communist society im actually more in favor of anarchy anyway
Only people who look into the future or that like philosophy have issues with the concentration of power, even if things are fine. Common folk don't care about politics, but only about living well. However, I don't think the issue is the concentration of power in one person, because then, they also suffered the concentration of power in a very small elite (which today is bank and financial elite), but the issue is the ability to access that power. No one outside of the small elite can access that power. Sharing power is useless as competition for power is itself a cause of corruption, but concentration in a single person is fine, if that person has fear of God.
Monarchy > oligarchy or democracy, as Darius proved. I hope we're not any different from the ancients and we make the same "mistakes" they did. HEIL CAESAR!
Lmao amazing sature 😂
This is a remarkably boneheaded comment. The fruit of monarchy is kings like El Hechizado, the Spanish king too inbred to even function who required his servants to chew his food for him.
imagine actualy being a monarchist lmao. go back to drinking lead paint.
Free Palestine
✊
To what end? Like what is free but the two state system? It’s an empty slogan with no actual end.
please no tankie stuff
You always have to drag your vids to criticise politics in the USA. It’s pretty tedious.
Do not visit the tribunate then
Mark Twain & TR split on this. America & Israel today.
tankie
I quote: "a benefit to the provincial expansion: the creation of a permanent underclass of non-citizen allies with limited rights, and then later, the domination of subject provincials with none at all. This offered very little in the way of material benefits to the poor plebeians, but they could take pride in the fact that they now stood on a comparatively higher rung on the social pyramid. Not because their lot had improved, but because there were now even more people below them - then as NOW, the creation of a hyper-exploited underclass" - is it just me, or is this referring to the Democrats' turning a blind eye to illegal mass immigration in the US now?
the "until all people are free" thing is hilariously naive.
Quoting Star Wars is a funny way to handle this.
I was paraphrasing the famous Emma Lazarus quote “Until we are all free, we are none of us free” which dates back to 1883
...you were quoting The Phantom Menace.
It's not even a conceivably close paraphrasing of what you said.
EDIT: "How Liberty Dies."
Someone pls tell me the name of the instrument played at 0:02-0:03 seconds. I love how it sounds so much but I do not know the name of it. Much love if you tell me❤
Your are underestimating the allure of going along to get along. 🫤