The BIG PROBLEM with historical wargames
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- Опубліковано 14 тра 2023
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You do realise that the Axis countries are also playable factions in World of Warships, right?
Yeah, I don't think Guy thought much past the dollar signs.
@@peterclarke7240 lol yeah
a Russian company who left Russia to set up in Cyprus as a tax haven and safe from sanctions....
the hipocrisy is strong in this video
He never said he judged anyone for playing Axis. The video is objectively about possible reasons why people would/wouldn't play them. Although yes absolutely dollar signs are powerful motivators lol
One bonus about historical Wargames is that you’re not locked in to one company’s miniature range. No one owns history so different companies can compete on the same minis and you can mix and match minis you like.
Sometimes the different scales (for what should be the same scale) can be a bit annoying, but yeah, this is pretty great and there is no company that is going to sue you for 3d printing tanks because the actual designs of the tanks aren't protected by a single company.
True! When I started scale modelling, back when I was like 10 or 11, I´ve never heard of Wargaming. Now I have a collection of over 30 planes, tanks, cars and artillery guns, not to mention 100s of soldiers. All WWII, all 1/72 scale. Bolt Action is 1/56, very uncommon. Advantage: More details than 1/72. But dang, with 1/72 you get much bigger battles on the same table. And with Revell, Italeri, Tamiya etc. you have multiple companies that produce a ridiculously large variety of WWII stuff of all involved nations. The rules of Bolt Action make it easy to include pretty much every tank, gun and infantry into your game.
Yup, that's a HUGE advantage. GW is a vertically integrated monopoly which is never good.
@@DasVadderr TBH it's probably for the better since most traditional scale model kits are way too detailed/to fragile to be lugging around for wargaming :P . Also 1/56 matches almost perfectly with 28mm to 32mm figure scale which most which most wargame players are used to painting for infantry.
Just gotta be consistent with scale.
>historical games are problematic
>sponsored by historical warship game
Made by belarusians, several of which have publicly supported putin.
he never said they "are problematic" in the sense of the games are bad things that shouldn't exist, he said there's a problem, in the sense of "obstacle to puzzle out", that keeps their mainstream appeal lower than fantasy stuff.
@@keiyakinsThank God, maybe women and degenerates won't ruin this hobby like they have all of the others
@@keiyakins Even then, he doesn't really make very good talking points. He claims that people might be put off from having swastikas on tanks. The thing is German tanks basically never had swastikas on them, but Guy CHOSE the one unit that specifically used one. He could literally have chosen anything else, no one was forcing him to do a swastika.
@@rasmuskock8077 If his points are bad, it should be easy to refute them without making false claims about what he said.
This is like Twitter discovering Historical Wargames in real time
Or Tumblr...
I mean for some people playing the Nzis is like forcing someone to play the school shooter who shot up their school...
some people are fine with it but with some it just hits too close to home.
I remember when we had a yugoslav war one off. no models or anything, just chits. I had completly forgotten one of the dudes at the table fled from there as a small child to here in Germany until we just noticed he hadn't come back from the toilet break and instead went home...
can't blame him can I now.
How so? Because he admitted that, shock, horror, some people might not be comfortable playing as the nazis? He's painting a nazi tank while discussing it, hes clearly not sating "everyone who does this is a horrible person". Unless you think he's calling himself a Nazi?
@@keiyakins War games were around before WWII. People have played WWII war games, or at least played with tin, lead or plastic soldiers, for 75 years, and it's never been a problem, until the current generation of snowflakes who get offended by everything and triggered by the slightest little thing, and because they like to pretend the Nazis are making a come-back because people voted for Donald Trump.
Of course, nobody with an IQ over 50 actually believes Nazis are an issue; it's all performative and virtue signalling.
In this particular case, I think it was click bait. They made the video knowing full well people with consider them utterly pathetic, and it would cause a controversy.
He painted and plays Slaanesh so by the same logic he uses here he would be pro rape. Hes a fucking clown and just wanted clicks for this is all
I think you may grossly underestimate the popularity of historical wargaming.
Indeed. The Historical hobby is huge!
It's sad what the "Games Workshop Hobby" bubble does to people.
There are dozens of us!
Look up Kriegsspiel. Created in the 19th century and it still has a playerbase!
@@RotneybotOfficial They must be ancient!
As someone from Germany and with almost 75% of my family originating from Germany, who was raised with a hardcore "learn from your ancestors' mistakes" mentality, I see no issue with playing the Axis powers in Bolt Action (or any game where there are Axis powers present). You can play as the Axis powers without endorsing or supporting any of the regimes' ideologies. If you're making the models for Bolt Action, for example, you can leave off iconography such as the hakenkreuz without impacting the gameplay in any way.
I have met literal n azis before now. I don’t share their beliefs I think Mr shitler was truely evil etc but so what. If you can’t have a rational discussion with other people how can you change their point of view?
@@Patrick-vh5nr chad view, by being violent to someone with abhorrent views you don't convince them to stop being idiotic instead you push them further into their beliefs and dive deeper into an echo chamber which will eventually explode when they're pushed one too many times.
Do modern Germans understand that the USA is running the country and still occupies Germany ?
@@riotguardsjust gotta rationalize with the nazis? Think that’ll work?
@@zacheryredden5417 Often does.
From a figure painting perspective I would say that the big attraction of collecting German WW2 armies is the huge variety of camouflage patterns for each theatre of war. Not only vehicles but also uniforms.
Compare this to the predominantly solid green vehicles of the allied armies and I think you might be halfway to an answer
This is funny, the mottled/patchy camo scheme is better when you’re stationary/on the defensive. Solid green when you’re on the offensive
@@johnlavery3433what makes that funny? The guy was just expressing the fact that he likes German camo variation...
@@HandOfThemis It's the fact that the Germans acknowledged the fact that troops would be predominantly stationary/defending later on in the war so they developed camo schemes to help with not being seen. This could be seen when they had german grey uniforms at the start and moved over the camo schemes of late war. The allies were always on the offensive so the uniform and vehicles stayed as olive drab
@@NobleWizard right, but that's not really funny. It's just logical camouflage usage.
You might want to look into the british empire.
I think the real reason that historical war-games aren't as popular is because they're set in the real world. It's far more constrained. Real people fighting in real settings with real equipment just isn't going to have the same hold on the imagination as some enormous, fantastical setting where all sorts of mad concepts can run riot.
There probably IS something to be said about being able to play as so many different wacky, over-the-top factions in Fantasy or Sci Fi. In 40K, for example, it can appeal to lots of different people. Whereas in Bolt Action and other modern historical wargames, you're mostly appealing to the folks who like to play Imperial Guard. If history isn't your big interest, historicals by definition have little to offer.
Plus, fictional wars based on Fantasy or Sci Fi give you far more freedom to customize your army and create original narratives for them. Even in Imperial Guard, there's a million worlds in the Imperium Your Dudes could come from. They can look like whatever you want, and have whatever story or motivations you want. With Historical wargaming, there's often a specific milieu, forces fighting in it, and paint schemes. And an expectation among historical players to be period-accurate, even down to the company markings. No one wants to go to be corrected by a fellow player on the exact shade of grey they painted the uniforms, let alone be chastised for painting the whole army pink because you liked the color.
Meanwhile, in something like Turnip28, you're encouraged to kitbash, paint, and name your band of incompetent vegetable mutants whatever you like.
This is absolutely the reason.
Not the cross over I was expecting but I'm looking forward to wartime underground minis!
Also, how many historical wargames companies have their own shops deliberately set up to appeal to kids?
Cos that's the real issue, here.
This is exactly it for me, I like the setting in general but dont like all constraints that come along with it... which is why I ended up going down the Konflikt '47 route 😊
For my background: I am German who majored in history and took additional courses, basically soaked up this stuff like a sponge, I also come from the most destroyed town in all of Germany. When it comes to such games, be it Tabletop Wargames or Videogames such as World of Warships or something like that, an understanding is what helps most with such topics. Learning about this time period had two major effects, for one it can give you an interest into the history of these people and equipment, how these vehicles developed etc. and most importantly while they were by no means good people, they were people nonetheless. Secondly I have enough knowledge to understand what such a Regime entails, the terror, suffering and death it caused. This understanding and the other players in the game understand that my miniatures (I dont have WW2 Minis, just and example), or the Side I play in videogames, are not who I represent as a person, we are all mature enough to differenciate the gameplay and military history from the political ideologies that the characters in the game perpetuated.
Where it gets dangerous is unexplained stigmatisation of these games or miniatures, telling someone "Dont play as the Nazis" while not explaining them what they are well enough will only lead someone trying it out of curiosity and not build a connection with it based on historical knowledge but through their own emotions.
+1
Your comment deserves more likes
Literally painting guides is the only reason I’m here after this boarder line racist tar a feather they have cast on anyone who enjoys playing games just for fun.
@velvet3496 very well said.
I do find it interesting that people want to point out only the atrocities committed by one regime but fail to point out those of ones that are still present like communism. Both are state enforced collectivism which is dangerous to freedoms of all.
But bolt action is merely a game and by playing Germans or Soviets you aren't actually commiting the atrocities of either so to me, it's a non issue. By the way, 600,000 people died in the bombing of your city and no one talks about that. No one talks about the katyn (sp?) Massacre, the Soviet imprisoning and treatment of Jews(yes very similar to the Nazis is some aspects), American 1st infantry was given the nickname " the American SS" by the Germans, etc.
The fact is war is complicated and anyone who has sincerely studied WW2 will know that not all Germans who fought were Nazis and ALL sides did fucking terrible things that could be considered war crimes.
So to all who read this, play bolt action and other historical wargames, enjoy them, and learn about history.
@@windhamearl4544 idk if this is the one you mean but the bombing of Dresden was a far better alternative to if the city had been able to fight back against the soviet advance, if they had had the capability to fight back then thousands more civilians and soldiers would have died. The only reason we see it as a bad thing was because the communists the very people who requested it used it as anti western propaganda.
It baffles me that they put out this video and it is sponsored by World of Warships, which allows you to play as the Kriegsmarine. That makes even less sense than the complaints aired in the video.
Didn't watch? You can play German ships fighting with allies ships in WoW, so...
And you CAN play Allies and Axis together in wargames too. No one can stop you@nerag7459
@@porgstew3657 Well I got taken to the Boardgame Hague last week for playing Germany in a tournament but I think that was because I played badly...
@nerag7459 😂 that's me all the time. Most of my games are with people who have never played before so my strategies don't work. I overthink it and they underthink it and they win. It's basically the whole thing about the lazy person being better because they will find an easy and quicker way to do the job.
My neighbor who was deployed in Vietnam thinks my Vietnam minis are super cool. He lost his best friend there when his UH-1 got shot down, but he still is in love with my 1:48 hueys.
They're historically ignoring, I'm sorry. They act like veterans haven't shaken hands with the people they used to shoot at. One of the great attributes people used to have is the ability to forgive our enemies. There's a Confederate section in Arlington Cemetery.
Whats your neighbours name I think I know him from church
Can't speak for historical wargaming, but I started out in the scale kit hobby before moving to the miniature one. And I can tell you right now, German WWII stuff is really popular but literally just because they had the coolest looking vehicles.
Its rather crazy how great so much German gear looks from the WWs, especially when compared to the rest of what’s available
That's why my brother collects them, they just look cool
I mean, that was very much intentional on the nazis part
@@jameskassal4777 Well they had Hugo Boss, Coco Chanel and Louis Vuitton working for them at various points so they had design well in hand.
Fr
Love the tanks
Love the guns
Hate the ideals
As someone who went to dozens of historical wargaming conventions I never heard of someone having this issue. I think the reason historical wargames don't get the traction that Games Workshop is due to people will have to split their time and money between systems/rulesets. Almost every game store I went to always had a few players interested in historicals of all themes and eras but are afraid to because they won't have time to play anything else.
I think the question isn't why people army playing both, but why people are not playing historicals over scifo like warhammer. I think because people want to do/or act as something not achievable like how people like marvel
Imo I think historical wargamming looks pretty fun, I just wanna pick the guys with the cool tanks.
Yeah, I remember actual on paper debates and discussion in old paper wargames magazines about the ethics of playing historical wargames back the 1980s. Midwinter is way off base here.
@@shadowknght22 The answer is fairly easy. Until the advent of Warlord Games a few years ago historical gaming never had what could be described as a standard set of rules. Napoleonics is a prime example of this. You may have a Napoleonic army but chances are you won’t play the same rule set as somebody in a different club. GW is universal, you can go anywhere in the world and play somebody at 40K or AoS. I have always been interested in historical games, especially Napoleonics, but never took the plunge because I could never guarantee what rule set I would need to know to actually have a game.
Historical war gaming has been around far, far longer than GW but as stated above never really had a standard set of rules and so stayed a niche. Warlord Games have done that with things like Hail Caesar, Bolt Action and Black Powder. They are becoming very popular because the minis aren’t proprietary, you can use any manufacturer and many are far cheaper than even Warlords but even Warlords stuff is cheaper than GW as you can get a 1000 pt Bolt Action army for around £100, and the rules are actually a lot better than GW. Don’t forget GW has been around for 40 years and there is a GW store on just about every high street which means they have built their customer base.
What was also not mentioned was that GW dwarfs all other competition even within sci-fi and fantasy settings thereby artificially inflating the size of the sci-fi and fantasy audience. Take GW out of it and I don’t think there would be much of a difference between the sizes of the player bases.
To be fair to the video, I think the video was probably intended for a younger audience. From that perspective I could totally see certain kinds of people who were concerned with "appearances of virue" not wanting to play a Facist army in a WW2 wargame. Even though older generations of wargamers have fewer issues with "playing the badies" on the table or even collecting the miniatures for them simply become they have fewer concerns regarding how they appear to others in their pear groups and are less prone to be afected by "woke" ideology even though as an older generation they may have been closer to those who actually fought against or experienced the horrors of fascism.
I feel this probably should have (& more accurately) been titled:
*MY* Big Problem with historical wargames
Nah man, haven't you listened to the sponsorship?
They said: "I only accept sponsorships from stuff that I actually use in real life and that way you hopefully know my endorsement is genuine, I play world of warships"
So the " big problem " only applies to tabletop minis and not other sources of entertainment.
@@MZ-sr2xrCleraly its becouse tabeltop is played by nazis and WoW most defenatly isnt. Only good pepole play WoW. I am not being paied to say that.
@@MZ-sr2xr im pretty sure the word "wargame" is specifically used meaning figurine games about war and the other is a video game with a war/conflit theme so original comment feels correct
Or how dare there be games with things I don't like in them!
There is NO big problem with historical wargames; this genre has been around for far longer than Fantasy or Sci-fi wargames. Historical wargames have provided me with a great interest in human history and an understanding of 'why wars happen'. We cannot and must not ignore these reasons and continue to re-learn from them. Bad people are going to be bad regardless of whether they have painted a model Panzer 4; equally painting a Sherman tank is not going to make someone equal to Sainthood.
@EvanMainpussies
As a german playing wargames i can only add my two cents: my parents (both experiencing the red army marching in in east germany and the the area bombing in western germany as children) forbid that we played with war-toys when we were children. They did not want us to expereince anything war related as something positive. And i totally understand that. Now, as an adult, i keep coming back to wargames (boardgames, PC, tabletop). It has something fascinating and i see it as a good opportunity to connect with my family history (both grandfathers fought in the wehrmacht on the eastern front). I play allies and germans. I did never have an odd feeling playing the germans. I do not support nazi ideology by any means and i do not understand why playing a faction like the germans would influence or change that.....Do not get me wrong: if someone does not like to play the "bad guys", thats totally fine. But if someone does not mind, i do not find that strange either. And i am not talking about those idiots who a gloryfiing Nazis or use nicks with a lot of S in them in online games. Those are a minority imho.
Exactly.
I feel like Germans can be really proud of the recent aid and support you have been giving to Ukraine. Just a few days ago Sholtz promised a 2.7 Billion dollar aid to Ukraine. And with all the new Marder, Gepard and Leopard 1 and 2 tanks arriving on the battlefield. The world is actually cherring on the new panzer battalion, as it stands With the Ukranian people. After this war is over I dont think Germany has to hang their heads in shame much more, your country has been redeemed in so many ways. However I believe that stick of shame will be unfortunately carried by the Russians for decades to come. For obvious reasons.
I would also add that in some parts of central and eastern europe Red army did 5-10 times more atrocities than Germans. Painting germans as one layer badies is not correct. Allies, both western and eastern did their share of attrocities. They just had pleasure of writting schoolbooks. Especially soviets. Their liquidation of germans in 1945 - 1955 was not that far from holocaust. For me on these grounds would be harder to play soviets than germans. Also do not forger Ru Empire and succesor USSR did hunts on jews like every 10 years.
...I play Germans because their tanks look cool. That's it hahaha. Though I do admit I do try to not use SS black clad officers. That does feel a bit too real sometimes. But the bread and butter of the army? Sure. But still... Its a game, and a learning oportunity for the (probably) most influencial conflict of human history. I think we can play it without problems, we should understand that most people aren't a nazi sympathiser for playing that army (or whatever faction) and we can respect people who dont want to play those games or factions. Heck, I dont mind being "the baddie" if other people feel discomfort playing them.
@@stefanmekkinosson175 ❤
Ironically, Guy taking money to pretend he doesn't see the playable Axis faction in World of Warships has stronger parallels to what happened in WWII than choosing to play the grey dudes in a TTG.
Or the part where he scorns play to win, while offering free dubloons and premium time
Or the fact that he mostly paints 40k models, a universe in which there are dozens of mega-fascists
Ouch
@@rasmuskock8077 to be fair being the mega-fascists seems to be the least evil in the 40k setting, i mean i'd get those over the everything-eating space dino-bugs or literal demons from hell
@@giorgiofenu5563 yeah but everyone's point is he's saying that some people may be too into Nazis in bolt action making them Nazis but wouldn't that be the same if someone's too into the literal fascists of the 40k universe. Also he literally painted prisoner of war conscripts for a video that fight for fascists
A big reason 40k is popular is it draws from many very different pop culture genres. You have WWI and WWII like Imperial guard. Powered armored super soldier Space Marines. Insect hordes/xenomorph Tyranids. Undead/zombie/vampire-like cultists. Space Elves. Space Drow. Gundam like Tau. Cyborgs. Demons. Giant robots.
If you got a pop culture fandom, chances are 40k has an army for you. With historical, on the other hand, you are stuck with X or Y from the same time period, where X and Y aren't really that different thematically.
I had a giant wall of text to explain to you the details and differences between different armies and why it’s cool, but then I realized that I’m a history nerd and odds are that most people who would care/see these differences are history nerds too, and that why we like these games. It’s fine if you don’t see anything unique about them, we do, and there’s nothing wrong with you not knowing (even tho I think people should know more about history in general) and that you’d like Warhammer more, and it’s perfectly fine :)…
So uh, yea, I didn’t really have a point, I kinda dismantled what I was gonna say and it led to an epiphany.
What I found hilarious is Hettie getting filtered by painting 40K of all things. Its like any Wargames, as easy or as complicated as you want to make it, as long as it looks good to you, is all that matters.
She's such a sperg.
Yeah, the Death Korps of Kreig are totally NOT WWI german infantry either. Guy's take here was pretty shallow. Makes really question his grasp of history or knowledge of it.
There's also a lot more room for creativity and homebrewing in 40k. That's kind of my draw to it. I don't want to play the fucking Ultramarines either, I want to make something of my own.
@@kaleoarnold3709 They're not identical, but they're way more similar than off brand xenomorphs, demons, and gunpla. Artists making shit up can do whatever they want, but if you're building a weapon, you're going to come to broadly similar forms because physics dictates a lot of it.
Dare I mention recent historical wargames where someone has to play middle eastern terrorists? I'm ex-military and have no issue playing any force in a game. If anything, historical wargaming makes us aware of what has happened, or is happening, and mindful that we, as a society, don't let things go that way again. Don't overthink things, Guy. Keep up the great work you're doing. Your videos are very therapeutic. Cheers!
You should take a greater issue with playing the forces of the us empire then some violent anti-colonialists.
Once again when someone says "historical" they think that it means WWII exclusively. People play romans and vikings and italian wars and there isn't anyone who is still actually hurt by the outcomes of those
Give it time, someone will
@@empireschild1 Words are not violence and we are not talking about hurt fefes of there being game that allows you to play as axis witch is massive rarity.
If you play as a Viking, do you feel a desire to pillage British churches? I wouldn't be judging if you did, I just think you might have Viking Supremacist sympathies...
(Jokes and Sarcasm, btw)
I'm preparing for a Sengoku period series of games. I guess that means I want to help restore the Shogunate and possibly take over Korea. Possibly crucify missionaries too.
Vikings get a bad rep most were farmers, it's just the obnoxious drunken few that have given them a bad name.
How can you say Historical wargaming is drab? The Napoleonic period is incredibly colourful !
Ancients Armies have Chariots and Elephants.
@@Naeron66
And modern armies had flying machines of doom and armored cars that shot hot lead
Terrible take, historical can be colourful.
@@lemmonboy6459 Pike and Shot period had huge variations in colourful uniforms and lots of intricate flags and standards.
Because some people seem to think history started in 1939 and ended in 1945 🙄
I used to build Airfix model tanks with my Grandfather before he died. He was a British tank commander and fought at El Alamein in a Churchill, and once told me about the horror of tank combat and how he heard his friends being cooked alive in a tank next to him. He had far more reason to hate the Nazis beyond "feeling icky" yet was able to recognise that the people he fought against were not all Nazis, and that recreating history was not endorsement and actually an important part of keeping memories alive, and so we built German tanks together as well as British and American tanks. This take is not only patheticly fragile, but deeply insulting to those who fought for the world you clearly take for granted, as it suggests that we should forget the horror and tremendous sacrifice to spare the feelings of people who don't want to have to think about it, or who lack the nuance to understand that recreating history is not an endorsement.
I know I am a bit late but you're comment is basically what I wanted to say but in a more eloquent way. My great grandfather fought in El Alamein too, whilst I was only a child when he passed away, my Dad passed his stories on to me of his time he spent as part of a Bren gun crew as a loader. There were many normal people swept up in WW2, I find it only fair that's recognised for all involved not just the allies. I've recently got into the world of scale models after stopping 40K and I think it's a great thing to recreate history with your models. The people on all sides who fought in WW2 are almost gone and I feel it's my own little way of preserving history and remembering those who have fallen.
Where did the plastic soldiers hurt you?
When did anyone ever walk into a room with a Wargamer, see his army and think "he must be a Nazi" I'm pretty sure that hasn't ever happened 🤣
You'd be *shocked.*
@@Erectus666 🤣🤣🤣 anytime I see someone drinking a Fanta I instantly think that they must be harbouring anti semetic thoughts
The only time I would think that is if someone is actually wearing nazi iconography
Kinda feels like Guy just did
@@jonpru82 yep Guy certainly did
I think you've underestimated the popularity historical wargaming, but can understand that it can seem small because it's fragmented across 5000 years of history (from Bronze age Hittites vs Egypt, though to Greek and Romans, Medieval, Horse and Musket, Napoleonics, American Civil War, and many, many others. None of those are the size of 40k, but together they are probably bigger.
For me I enjoy the variety of tactics and equipment, the wildly different painting styles and the opportunity to learn some real history.
Also keep in mind nobody has to play a faction they don't like in order for a game to happen. Bolt action plays well with Russians vs US, or British vs Belgians. People do recreate historical battles, but in my experience it's not the norm, people play with the armies they have, against whatever army their opponent has.
Well said...🤔👍
The WSS magazine poll puts 40k well ahead of everything - certainly historicals all combined. It's a hobby unto itself which is exactly what GW wants it to be.
@@PatGilliland Yes I thought as much when reading the original comment. Not a chance even all the historical wargames put together have a fraction of the pull of Warhammer and other fantasy-based games. The numbers are also in fast decline. It's the same across other cultural spheres, too. How many historical epics are made compared to sci-fi/fantasy/superhero movies? Videogames, TV, novels, you name it. People want escapist fantasy over reminders of an often depressing past.
Thing is, wargaming as a whole is a somewhat niche hobby, like train modelling, or origami, or a shit ton more.
And within that, while GW sits above a throne of almost complete solitude in the domain of fantasy and sci-fi wargaming ('cause let's say it, I love mantic, I love casus belli, but neither are anywhere in the same scale as GW), the historical wargaming branch is a LOT of even nicher games, most of them pulled by publishers that most of the common folk would never hear of, and sold in specific shops that most people wouldn't enter.
Meanwhile Warhammer has video games, books, art, a thriving and rather vocal online community, they have their own shops about anywhere on the planet, they have a really active (and sometimes even brilliant) marketing team : in a few words, they *exist* in the common world. You don't need to go to a nerdy modelling store or even a gaming store to get a few minis and try a game, you just need to walk in a street and get intrigued by the weird demons fighting lizards.
And that makes Warhammer much more accessible (besides the obvious "fantasy/sci-fi" over "actual events" part ofc)
Just treat allies vs allies as war games. Happens all the time in the real world. Simplez.
Such a shame you didn't interview histrorical wargamers to give the viewer a chance to have a balnced informed view. Was very surprised by this considering how amazing your videos are.
Yeah, they missed the mark completely. Made the absolute worst assumptions about a gaming community with zero personal experience.
@@stephenmel8630extra credits wen
I don't think they said anyone was bad or assumed anything. All questions where "is this..." Or "could this be because..." All under the main question of "why aren't historical games bigger or main stream". All questions where asked out of curiosity or why certain people "perhaps" would not like this game. Not "people that play this game ARE this...or that" @@stephenmel8630
Hey Guy,
IMO you're overthinking it a little too much, And I think the main reason people don't play historical games is just because its not as ''cool'' and its not fantasy/sci-fi. You're also limited by history and limited to real paint schemes etc. You're not free to really do what you want with your models and there's not cool stuff like giant mechs running around.
However, I enjoyed the video and thought it was interesting even if I disagree. Keep up the top content!
Your idea of cool is clearly different to mine. I much prefer historical war games, but then I am old - don’t know f age is a factor n this?
as a young-in myself at 18 years of age, i gotta say i absolutely love historical stuff! While there probably is a larger market with the older folk, there are still going to be younger people interested in history, and what better way to enjoy history than rolling dice and dealing make belief damage? @@rodneyfungus8249
@@rodneyfungus8249 totally agree with this, If my friends saw my collection of tanks, soldiers and planes they would be really impressed and want to ask questions. If they saw a load of space goblins, orks and aliens I think they would laugh and think im a bit weird.
A big part of tabletop war gaming is the hobby and sharing your miniature art. I think sci-fi or fantasy gives more artistic freedom and that is a big reason why they are more popular.
Yeah I think this is it. You get a much wider range of expression. Like I like painting my grimdark death Korps of Krieg, but I also like painting my tau in the Aromantic flag colours, or my chaos knights as if they are forged with cast iron. Can't really do that with historicals.
@@ExternalDialogue I mentioned in another comment that I think of my painting as being TV-show aesthetic. I also don’t game much anymore, so it’s all dioramas and gifts for folks. So if I want a diorama of an LRDG patrol in cobbled-together outfits sliding down a dune into a brightly painted lost tomb, I don’t feel intimidated by reality.
This is why I switched from historicals, if I wanted color I basically had napoleonics, so I decided I would simply bankrupt myself with Gamesworkshop to get that color variety.
This is why I've recently become intrigued by the indie game Sludge. I like IRL blackpowder military history, but when it comes to gaming, besides the aforementioned issues of gamifying real life warfare and atrocities, at heart I'm much more of a kitbasher/build-my-own-narrative type anyway. So a history-flavored fantasy game is going to appeal to me more than a strict historical one. Or a game where I'm strictly adhering to out-of-the-box lore, for that matter.
I think this is how Wargaming has developed, but historically (heh) the emphasis was more on simulation and historicity - hex and chit games are the purest example of this, but you'd also find it expressed in enthusiasts recreating reproductions of particular rosters from actual battles down to individual markings and equipment colourings. Bolt Action stands out because it brings a lot of Warhammer's sensibilities around army building and scenario play to history: and I think that leads to weird scenarios where people become abstract 'German players' instead of being focused on particular engagements or theatres of conflict.
You: It's all fun and games until someone has to play the Nazis
Also you @ 6:15 : Playing the Nazis in World of Warships who sponsored your garbage take.
I don't think the video is as insane as people make it out to be, the opening line is clearly a joke & while I don't think there's necessarily a connection between playing nazis in a tabletop game & being one IRL, I'd say there is definitely a different level of commitment between zooming around in a free to play game in a ship you just get VS. taking the time to pick out and settle on a specific faction, buying, building & painting etc. a playable army of any flavor
AAAAND we got the one who didn't get it. Great. Now move along, troll.
@@mariosebastiani3214 shut up soyboy
@@snubbull7309how do you feel playing the soviets?
The point went so far over your head that it's entered orbit of Jupiter.
Nowhere did he say it's defacto bad to play Nazi's, he simply asked 'is their presence why historical games struggle?'. Which is, of course, an inherent problem for any game set in WW2.
I think you alluded to what makes me hesitant to get into historicals at 9:40. When the minis are based on real history, I want to get them correct. I feel like I need to do a ton of research to have historically accurate minis and it puts a bit of a damper on my desire to make creative choices or do what I might think would be most aesthetically pleasing. Now that I think of it, some of my favourite WW2 stories like the Guns of Navaronne are fictional characters in fictional locations so maybe I should just relax and give it a go.
Can definitely see what you mean.
You should definitely relax and give it a go
Eric, i think you culd totaly do Historical. You are the man Who makes absoluut amazig video with true reserche and "lore". And you tell a story with passion for the hobby. Your last amazig vid with adding real looking ww1 tranches in 40k shows you culd do fantastic historical video's aswell! Even your video on heraldry is almost a full history lesson and i loved evy second of it. Historical wargaming dosent need to mean make it 100% accurate for there is no way to be truely accurate! Iv played Historicals from when i was 8 im now almost 33 and play historical and Fantasy and research is part of the fun on both. Thats why i love history its so match stuf to explore. Realy onhappy with this video for most of us play all sides its a wargame like any other and there is a huge communaty. And if nazi's wuld be a problem these wuldent be sutch a massieve moddeler communaty aswell.
Just give it a go and maybe then get daft about entertaining more historical accuracy. Which in itself is fun because you start to realize how chaotic wars are when you see all the slapped together units that were out there.
Also then you can go off and use the inspiration for Units in sci fi and fantasy games. Like Imperial Guard unit with various uniforms.
I do a lot of historical. I would simply say look at the colors and companies such as Vallejo will name their colors like WWII Japanese Uniform, or WWII American Olive. makes it really easy to get the colors right.
2 of my grandfather's brothers served in WW2. One in the RAF and the other in the British army. My father's stepfather served in the 12th SS. I collect German tanks for tanks and German armies for bolt action
There's nothing wrong with playing as the Axis in Bolt Action or World of Warships. It's just a game with painted plastic models, it's not real. I think a lot of people are interested in the weapons and tanks used by Germany and insinuating that these players are potentially Nazis is honestly terrible.
And very rude
oh or just calling the german army the nazis in the first place just shows how little he knows about history. i'd say 40% of the german army weren't nazis, 30% started as nazis but where disillusioned after seeing the horrors of war or the holocaust and the last 30% where nazis.
@@lieutenantlolo6027 you’re just plain wrong. Most germans simply were nazis, as were many in other countries (including the US.) The populace had, in fact, voted for the nazis. They destroyed Jewish businesses and killed their Jewish neighbors during Kristallnacht. Germans, as well as those the Germans came to rule, turned in Jews and dissidents. Also, the Wehrmacht was an integral part in the holocaust. During their campaign of slaughter in the eastern front, they killed and raped millions. The german army WAS the nazi army.
Even if what you claim was true it would not matter. The average citizen who did nothing and ignored the horrors was just as complicit as the soldiers who killed and raped and the leaders who ordered the genocides. So were the “good” ones you seem to think were common. They voted for the nazis, they turned in their neighbors, they let it happen! It is the average person that causes and enables evil, not just leaders.
I have no living family in Europe because of the people who simply went along with the Nazi machine. Perhaps they had excuses, but that doesn’t make it right. By promoting this myth, people start to imagine that if they were a German during the 1930s and 40s, that they certainly would have stood up to it, that they would have no part in the slaughter-this is not true, and history tells us so.
@@lieutenantlolo6027 where are you pulling those figures apart from out of your arse? Here is another statistic for you, 100% of the German army had to pledge allegiance to hitler. Or are you just fighting the cause of SS - bad, Wehrmacht - good
@@lieutenantlolo6027 As someone who plays Germans in Bolt Action and is fervently anti-fascist, get that ‘clean Wehrmacht’ myth out of here. The Wehrmacht were absolutely involved in war crimes across Poland, France, and the USSR, amongst others, and they were complicit in SS atrocities to the point of frequent collaboration in atrocities such as the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto exactly 80 years ago.
Just because I play them in Bolt Action does not not make me blind to their allegiance to the Nazi regime (they swore an oath to Hitler en-masse upon completion of training), and the crimes they committed in its name. I see my German miniatures as villains first, second and last. When I picture them in my mind’s eye, they are always the antagonists, even when I play as them. It’s like a more intense version of depicting the Empire and their stormtroopers in Star Wars. Unless you can find any that actively fought against the Nazi regime, the German Army of World War Two were all Nazis. None were disillusioned, they only regretted that they lost.
I'm Polish and the fact that I'm collecting a German paratrooper army for Bolt Action doesn't keep me up at night. I like the look of the minis, I enjoy the camo patterns and and that's really all there is to it. To each their own I guess.
Everything has to be offensive these days. they’re literally plastic toys, it’s not that deep
I get your point and also that of the other commentator. It´s easy to fall into traps here though especially as neonazis talk in codes and fixed phrases all the time. Just to show what I mean MrDudinsky above mentions "To each their own" which is actually written in big letters above the entrance to the Buchenwald death camp of the SS. It was used as a cruel joke towards the poor people killed there. So I definetly don´t want to imply that this is what he meant in ANY way. But in the wrong company and with the wrong people I can see where it sometimes can get tricky to find out why the player with the German troops might seem a bit more enthusiastic than he should be. However, I thank that those idiots would play a troop of Astra Militarum very annoyingly as well.
@@johanness.8273 Huh, I didn't know that bit about the Buchenwald camp so that was not intentional. Thanks, I've learned something today.
@@johanness.8273There is a reason back in the day, one of the internet rules was "you mention nazis you loose the argument". Its the lowest level of argument.
Basically an insult. "nazis breathed air, it means your a nazi". If it dosnt activly promote their idelogy its not nazi related. Get over it. note i'm also polish.
@@Chewie260 I´m not arguing and it was not an argument. Also, I never implied that the original comment had anything to do with Nazis. I´m very sure it didn´t. However, the video also mention in the video that even though 98% of all wargamers are absolutely fine, you sometimes meet very strange people. It can be a strange to draw the line between the guys who yell "Waaaaagh!" all the time and the real idiots who really mean the stuff that they´re saying.
I got into Bolt action and started building a Japanese Army. I chose the army because I love world war 2 history and Japanese history. Not only that, but fully getting into the Japanese army has helped me learn things I didn't know existed, like the Giretsu or that the Japanese had a prototype bazooka. I love learning new things about history, and fully embracing my army has helped me gain so much knowledge.
Do you have a Nanjing R@pists Squad?
I really think you dropped the ball here, mate.
First of all, let me say that my grandparents were all involved in WW2. Don't think a family in Finland weren't. However, my grandfather (from mothers side) fought through out the entire war, from '39 (going to war at the prime age of 16 with his older brothers papers) to '44 - '45 (in Lapland, where he was majorly injured by a grenade). Grandfather also lost 4 or 5 brothers. My grandmother (from mothers side) lost 6 of her brothers to Russians. I know that both lots sisters, as well.
And I don't even know from my fathers side, but I can imagine it's about the same and this goes to pretty much everyone in Finland.
Now to the point.
You're basically saying that playing a faction in a game of little plastic men and tanks is the reason why historical miniature games aren't as popular as 40k.
I say this is either just fishing for fame or money, or both, from your end, and it's a whole new level of Pffft I actually never thought you'd go to.
I cannot believe that you actually believe that someone picking up Germans (*not* Nazis, as far as I know) in Bolt Action is a strong case for that person to be a nazi. I just can't.
I'm certain that there are people like this, certainly. I mean, there's over 7 billion of us on this rock, so the odds are pretty good.
But based on this logic if you pick Russians you're a communist (and *far* more have been killed by the far left than the far right ideology, mind you!), or if you pick US you're part facist, part colonialist, part... Something else.
C'mon. Really?
I would pick the Germans in a heartbeat, if I would be interested in Bolt Action in the slightest.
Like I said, you *really* dropped the ball here.
I believe that historical wargames are not as popular as something like 40k is exactly because it is historical. It's not something you can make shit up and invent whatever bullshido you want. Like what you can in 40k (I mean, really. Literally look at the massive gargant you've got).
With historicals, you have to follow set rules to painting, maybe even force organization, commander names, etc. etc.
There is no room for imagination.
40k is pretty much the opposite of this.
Errr... In a game set during World War 2, Germans definitely equal Nazis. While I don't think people who decide to play as them are that themselves, making that argument that not all soldiers were nazis gets into the whole tricky territory of the "clean Wehrmacht" and all that bullshit which is 100% promoted by actual real life neo-nazis.
Extremely well said. This mf literally sponsored world of warships. I bet u could pay him to dress up as a nazi and larp if it was enough for him to retire on.
More like dropped his spaghetti!
Nobody asked for your life story
I play the germans in bolt action because I find them to be one of the more interesting sides of ww2 history. Their weapons, uniform, progression, rise and fall. I dont like them or their ideology and I know the risk of being labeled a nazi when I express my interest from a purely historical point.
That seems pretty fair!
Most people understand you're not a Nazi..... unless you start showing up in full uniforms.
@@craigwinter3792you’d think so but to some the idea of a passing interest is unacceptable
@@craigwinter3792 It's called commitment ^^
@@MidwinterMinis
Let me highjack this answer, because there is a major misconception.
The Wehrmacht (WW2 Germans actual armed forces) were not Nazis themself.
The Nazi had some elite forces among and alongside the Wehrmacht to ensure their "loyality".
That said, here is a documentary about an incident during the fall of the Nazis, where Wehrmacht soldiers an US soldiers fought against the Nazis, together!
ua-cam.com/video/PX9y7z1qndQ/v-deo.html
Maybe its just me, but I thought that after you got all those morals bit out of the way you were going to be "right, heres a couple of squads we painted up earlier" and get stuck into a battlereport to show us what the game was like.
But instead it was just abruptly "well, that's Bolt Action, let us know what you think". There was no Bolt Action at all, aside from 2 models which might as well have just been Tamiya or Airfix kits for all the difference it would have made to the video.
Exactly. All we got to hear is misguided takes from a personal bias (part political/part "must trash to make the Games Workshop gods happy").
Because it's obvious the real purpose of the video was to bring politics into wargaming, painting the minis was just the excuse to do it
@@tonybaloney8401 Which is messed up, because Bolt Action is one of many games with a better system over GW's slapped together rules sets.
@@tonybaloney8401 That idiot Goobertown hobbies does the same too lol. I can't watch him at all and if this channel goes the same route I'll not be watchin this one either lol.
@@tonybaloney8401 i agree, the whole point of gaming on the tabletop is to not worry about the politics of the real world for a few hours! videos like this are just pointless.....
Man, this just wasn't a good take. Maybe historical games ain't for you. But again, we all have those types of takes. Just need to learn why this can be quite a damaging mindset. I love your stuff, I cannot wait to see your 10th edition beginners guide.
...? "A lot of people probably don't want to play as nazis" is a damaging take? how?
@@keiyakins Because it implies that every German during WW2 was a Nazi, this is not only incorrect it is incredibly damaging to the image of any Germans that were around back then
@@keiyakins He threw a ton of people who are fine playing the bad guys under the bus for the sake of clout. It just comes across as vapid and self-righteous for virtually no reason.
@@thatone846 listing a bunch of perfectly normal reasons someone might play the bad guys is throwing them under the bus?
@@keiyakinscalling them nazi sympathizers for playing the faction definitely is.
"Painting the handle red makes it shovel faster"
As an American and US Soldier, I can confirm: We are orks. If it's stupid but works, it ain't stupid.
Consider the distinct possibility that Historical Wargaming is not for you.
They won’t. They’ll just take more and more and more. Then they will exclude you for being a racist Nazi fascist white supremacist über-Hitler.
but apparently historical computer gaming is right up his alley...
To be fair he never said it was
@@westwest4082 Then why make a video about it, while asking your fans if they want more?
@@westwest4082 Then he should keep his moronic take to himself and let people enjoy their hobby.
There's tons of creators who talk about painting and modeling historical wargames and WW2 gaming. The reason I enjoy collecting and painting germans for Flames of War is the modeling aspect. They have a variety of camo schemes that allow for a wide range of hobby challenges.
my grand daddy grew up during german occupation. His favorite game was wolfenstein 3D
I think, from a creative perspective, with 40k you have much more freedom to convert or use a custom color scheme. Historical is more about recreating as close as you can, which limits your choices and conversion options to basically none. I don't think at all it has something to do with the political backgrounds. Maybe even causes people to read more about it, because they want to improve the accuracy of their minis, which from an educational point is a good thing.
Edit: Maybe a video about that topic? Creativity vs recreation? Finding inspiration for an own colorsheme vs recreating one from history?
nah, these days you see as many people painting to codex than you do trying to get every detail right in historicals. the community is moving on from dedication to absolute accuracy - because more modern research indicates that, no matter what is in that osprey guide, the reality on the ground was far different.
@christianarnold2216 In many ways it's the opposite - historical gaming tends to be more ground-up than GW gaming. We write our own rules, etc., and very much decide for ourselves what type of game we are playing. We are not reliant on a particular company framing our hobby.
@@keithflint7243 could not agree more
As a long time fan of the channel, I was really disappointed with this videos very narrow view on historical wargames and those who play them. I think it would be beneficial to speak to historical wargames and potentially the companies behind them, so they can provide their thoughts on the points raised here. A real shame
Yup totally agree, was really excited to see Guy put up a video about bolt action...for him to just shit on it from a position of absolutely 0 knowledge.
I agree - I bet the veteran wargamers and rule writers at Two Fat Lardies, Rich and Nick, would set him straight on a few points about historical wargaming.
I suspect they'd need to sponsor him for him to listen. After-all in the comments, he's been very clear players of World of Warships get a pass, as that too is "fictional" because it has lots of nations (unlike WW2 apparently?) involved and is set in its own archipelago.
Frankly it was that doubling down on the bad take and lack of research in the comments, which actually caused me to lose respect.
Same and also through this drama I learned about his wife and kids situation. Fucking scumbag
agreed, i was excited to see them finally cover Bolt action, my heart sank with these "hot takes" though.
My Uni has a boardgame club where a few of the lecturers and old students from over 50 years ago join in to play historical wargames. Watching a bunch of grey-heads discuss their research, and calling eachother plebs, while reinacting the battle of Waterloo is the funniest experience I ever had 😂
That sounds amazing
Sounds awesome, haha
The Napoleonic War guys are great!
@@MidwinterMinis this is related to the video not the comment...you do realize that based off of journals found by historians about 50% - 60% of the German army did not share the nazi's belief. so calling them nazis just shows your uneducated....but than you went full twitter mode and started to imply that everyone that plays an axis power is a nazi...like dude....twf
When I saw the title I thought this was going to be an interesting video on how the rules & models for historically are different from things like Warhammer and maybe boring or something, or maybe a twist that they're great but not many people play them. This with then an ad for World of Warships is just beyond tone deaf.
A ton of excellent arguments have been made in the comments below, so I'm not going to repeat any of that. Here's what I'd like to see, should you all decide to do more content on Bolt Action or other historicals:
1. A discussion with some folks who play historicals as to why they feel those games aren't as popular as 40k. I know that a good bit of this discussion is happening in the comments for this video, but it would be great to see those voices given some air time in a video.
2. An interview with creators in the Bolt Action community on how the UA-cam algorithm affects the kind of content they make. I think you make a valid point about the impact of the algorithm, and I'd love to hear a discussion with people actually making that type of content on what it's like to deal with that aspect of UA-cam.
Ultimately, I feel that this video misses the mark in that it could put some folks off to Bolt Action who might otherwise have given it a go. I understand that that absolutely was not the intent, but the framing is there nonetheless. I appreciate all the commenters who have added to the conversation by giving voice to the multiple other perspectives within this dialogue.
Are you sure historical aren't as popular as 40k? The Great Wargames Survey of 2022 suggests that WWII has top slot.
@@beardedbear9901 No but they didnt realize it!Because they dont live in reality(for example the prices they pay for their armees!))
I feel another issue with historical wargaming is that there isn't much room to make 'your dudes'.
One of the big strengths of fantasy/sci fi wargames is that they allow room to paint/model outside what is officially available.
But with historicals, it can feel daunting if, for example, your British foot regiment are painted in the wrong uniform colours of the early Napoleonic Wars compared to the late.
This is almost completely it for me. I'm thinking about Tau and my mind goes something like "Hmm, maybe some bright parade colors for a very safe world, or some dingy battle-damaged muted tau color scheme, I don't see that nearly as much as brighter schemes. Oh and maybe I could paint certain units different, how could I visually represent Stealth Suits being stealthy, I've seen some paint schemes that depict them halfway through camoflague, or I could do some sort of iridescent effect." The ideas just sorta flow(I'll get around to them some day, maybe.)
But if I were to consider painting some WW2 armed forces I'd paint them uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh historically, I guess??? That's about it.
Then play a different game ? The appeal of historical wargames is that they are historical and this can be used as backdrop for games.
If you just like WWII tonks aesthetic, you can try something like making girls and panazer tanks, etc...
That’s another factor I completely forgot about when I left my original comment. There’s no room to make your little plastic army “yours”.
@@Bill31400 That's what people do, hence historical isn't as popular. Your comment wasn't a gotcha.
Honestly I think this is the biggest thing - besides actually not having orcs, elves and aliens... because lets face it, people prefer that to realism in their entertainment (just turn on your TV - or your parents if you are too young and don't even bother having one or check out the settings for your video games).
Playing historical games is often about representing a specific army at a specific point in time. With something as well documented as WW2 you can actually even find the rosters of some units, thus know the names of those who fought there even their actions. Its not about your own story, but what they did. So the attraction is completely different to what WH40k and others offer (funnily enough you will find a bit of that mindset with Horus Heresy players as well ;) ).
And playing Germans isn't about playing Nazis. Face it - even SS regiments were sometimes just elite cadres with soldiers not supporting the regime. Looking at Rommel and some other figures you even have some brilliant strategic minds, actually even heroic units... and then there is the other side, which well - why someone portraits those is something I won't even try to generalize its up to the individual person. But sometimes it is just detached interest in the unit formation and how it plays - but like said before you don't just put your own camo scheme on them with your cool unit logo and instead stick to the real world ones because its part of the flair of the HISTORIC game (which doesn't mean you support whatever ideology was behind it).
Personally I played the British 2PARA for Flames of War and Alexander's Macedons for 15mm games. Researching them was maybe even more fun for me than playing them XD
I collect Germans for Bolt Action because I like the aesthetic of their arms and armour. Thats it. I separate the real men from a miniatures game that just wants to represent the faction on the tabletop as best they can without the baggage.
I think its down to the politics/morals of the individual collecting them as to how hard they lean into the Nazi aspect over just Germans - plenty of arseholes in wargaming.
Not that it matters I guess, but my grandfather and great grandfather both served in the British army, and I myself am currently serving.
Meanwhile there's people playing DKoK with some "1488" unit numbers and black/white/red colour schemes. While being absolute Nazi dipshits, they don't even get that DKoK is much more of a WW1 than a WW2 aesthetic.
I guess a big question I always have for nazi players is like, if someone said they weren't comfortable inviting nazi players to a game, just because nazis, would you be upset/annoyed?
@@ppppppqqqpppI think if someone got offended about playing a ww2 tabletop game against the Germans, they are playing the wrong game/era.
Oh, buddy. "I am a serving member of the British army" REALLY isn't the bulletproof argument against accusations of fascism thay you seem to think it is.
@@ppppppqqqppp I'd question why they're playing a miniature game set in World War 2 where Nazis were THE big baddy.
That would be like refusing to play against Chaos armies ina game of 40k. Yeah it's your right, but why are you playing at all?
bro didnt make a peep about the soviets 😂
His idols of course
Here's my very simple decision process for why I play the Germans in Bolt Action:
- Didn't want to play any expensive GW games.
- Asked people what they played. Some played Bolt Action
- Asked people which faction they played. Many said the Allies.
- Play the Germans to find opponents easily.
I didn't once imagine myself as having their ideology.
I dont have a problem with playing the real bad guys, since I never win anyways
Same!
Lol
WW2 is the best for that - just play Nazis Vs Soviets and it's always a bad guy losing.
"Its all fun and games. Until someone with nothing better to do judges you for playing 'the wrong faction'."
Tsk tsk
??? He didn't say you shouldn't play them. Just explained why he and many others would personally feel uncomfortable collecting them.
@@arby2675 well jokes on them, cause this video immediately made me go out and buy as much wermacht minis as I could find.
@@Drazakhan_Dynasty I don’t see how anyones saying that’s a bad thing
@@arby2675 Anyone who holds these reservations should find a different hobby, doesn't matter if it's just this one thing or another, this channel showed some hella stupid marxian wokeism and lost face due to it.
someone who uses ‘wokism’ as an unironic pejorative raises a red flag
40K and fantasy gaming is based on history, and historical content. Historical gaming isn't popular, purely because of aesthetics, plus people have to learn history, and that's "like soooo booorringg doooood!" . If you're uncomfortable about ideas expounded in what is one tiny bit of real history represented by moulded bits of plastic, how in the hell do you cope with the ideas in 40K then? Slaanesh for one, that OK with you? Because that's always irked me, selling that stuff to kids, and i'm a keen 40k player.
Neither of us have experienced these things in reality, thankfully, yet one is simply represented more realistically than the other. Or is this simply a matter of you painting a red cross on your enemies door so you are passed over by any potential problems or loss of income so you don't actually have to get a job?
If I see someone playing as a villain faction in any game, I don't immediately assume they hold the same beliefs...
That's fair... What did you think this video said? Because they didn't say "if YOU like X thing you are bad" they said "why isn't this game more popular, could it be because of X... Or perhaps people are not comfortable with X thing and they feel Y maybe that's why this is not as popular". Can I ask where in this video did you make this assumption because it seems alot of other people have as well. But it's strange because if you really listen, not once did this video say what your describing.
Personally im a huge fan of BA, I play the german wehrmacht, and never in my career of playing games have I met a person with ill political intent, cough cough, or even just someone who didnt want to play the "bad guys". Its all games, I see it no different to playing video games and using "bad guy" stuff. As long as you do everything respectfully, there is no problem, and that can be taken to all things in life.
The people who don't let others have fun with a War game have other issues!
??? He didn't say you shouldn't play them. Just explained why he and many others would personally feel uncomfortable collecting them.
@Patriot Wargaming Solutions ?
@@arby2675 I don't care about his problem.
@@calvanoni5443 Great. It’s a UA-cam video you chose to watch, where someone talked about their subjective experience and opinions. I struggle to see how this is him “not letting others have fun with a war game”
@@arby2675 you missed the point of my statement. It's not him. 🙄
Me and the boys all want to play the axis factions and regularly play rock paper scissors to see who gets to
If someone gets triggered from a table top game, you probably have issues in-between your 2x ears to begin with...
I would imagine the reason why historical tabletop games are less popular compared to stuff like sci-fi or fantasy stuff is down to the main audience being history/military buffs which compared to the amount of people into sci-fi or fantasy, it’s just gunna be smaller I don’t think it’s much deeper than that.
Yeah this tracks, as I myself and most of the local Historicals guys are all prior military or the kind of old guy who watches history documentaries for fun.
@@JanitorScruffy yeah i collect airfix too and i own both sides vehicles, its really not that deep.
its an interesting part of history.
It connects me with my grand father who i grew up building them with, i mean one of the reasons I’m in the hobby in first place is because i wanted some stukas for my spitfires to fight against.
I think id get wound up if someone called me a nazi for collecting them, its a toy airplane its not exactly nazi memorabilia is it?
The optics of politics is often a smudged lens i guess.
And most historical rules sets are crunchy as fuck. BA is popular because it appeals to the 40k crowd
Not going to lie, this video is really weird to me.
It's a painting video that cuts between chill painting and then this voiceover about how historical wargaming isn't popular because of the Nazis.
He then advertises World of Warships immediately afterwards and says he plays it. I feel there is some lack of self-awareness.
@@Dracobyte in which he chooses the german boats. It felt like he needed an excuse to show off some bolt action
Not going to lie, this video is really weird to me.
It's a painting video that cuts between chill painting and then this voiceover about how historical wargaming isn't popular because of the Nazis.
He then advertises World of Warships immediately afterwards and says he plays it. I feel there is some lack of self-awareness.
I have also heard that Guy from Midwinter Minis cheated on his wife and refused to pay the minimum to her and his children. Is this also true?
Man, who'd have thought that playing a historical wargame that you'd have to play historical armies
for god's sake we all played CoD WW2 without shedding a tear
You're such a fragile snowflake.
I do not think that's what this video said? I thought it was saying "is X thing bad" not "people who like X thing bad". They just gave reasons as to why people might not play the game due to "X reason" not... "If you like this, you are bad"
Goodness man; You can appreciate the equipment, doctrine and tactics of any army without being ideological. I'm a scale modeler and when I build German armour, aircraft or ships, it's because of history and variety.
Like it's just a weird projection to think that building a Panzer would make you feel icky.
War in general sucks, no matter what side you're on.
Exactly. I like this channel but Guy had some real strawman takes. I’m a fervent anti fascist and I play Germans in flames of war cause I like their play style.
Thanks for paraphrasing this video because he literally gave those are reasons in it.
I know right? It's just a tank. It's not liek you're forced to paint the guys inside or give them a backstory, just paint the damn thing because it looks cool!
For me it feels more icky to play the space-nazis in 40k and pretend like they're the good guys.
@@Ainar86 play as ork and just smash everything
I think a main reason why historical war games might not be as popular could be that it might be more elitist in some senses. Most people playing bolt actions are gonna be into history big time and so it might be a bit intimidating to get into it out of fear of looking like a fool.
I don't know if that's a real reason.
I mean think of yourself as a new 40k player, there's so much lore/history and rules for every faction. Maybe more loose on the lore part. But still could make someone afraid of looking like a fool as well.
Also if you are setting up any game with historical armies you really don't need to know that history.
It's a what if type situation. Its not a reenactment of what really happened.
You're right from what I've experienced. I've seen Flames of War clubs look down on others for not being historically accurate. It was such a turn-off that I promised myself never to play the game.
@@encarnwhen I started with 40K about 15 years ago that's exactly how it felt. I didn't know a lot about the lore (and with much lore there is, I still don't know most of it😅), and I was really worried what I painted would fit the lore.. worried that someone would notice..
That feeling has passed luckily (don't give a damn what others think, just paint whatever you think looks cool), but I think there are loads of people feeling the same
@@anthonyd.1428 I don't play any historical war games but that is dumb on the communities part. Any historical game should be a what if type situation. Things don't need to be so tight it's just a game.
Do something dumb like paint your fatigues bright blue it shouldn't matter.
@@encarn In 40k you can paint your armies however your like, and no one cares. There's no research and no one would complain, like they *might* if you turned up with bright pink Tommies and a kitbashed Leopard.
Maybe you are over thinking this. It's just a game.
Also, most soldiers in the Wehrmacht werent nazis. they were just young men following orders. most had no idea what the nazi regime was up too
The same could be said about PC and console games but people dont seem to have any ethical issues with those. Your advertising of WOWS in this video speaks to that so whats the difference with TTG's.
Interesting how painting a German tank for the tabletop makes you a nazi, but playing a German warship in your sponsor’s games is just fine? A bit of a double standard.
Painted the German tank wrong to boot!
he never said that painting german tanks makes you a nazi, he only said that some people might not want to play as nazis
@ExecratedPlaysGaming taking uninformed swipes at his personal situation isn't necessary is it. The question on the videos theme vs its sponsor can be asked in a far more mature way....
@@ExecratedPlaysGaming we appear to be in agreement then. Baselessly accusing people of things is bad and can have negative effects on the accused. I'm no expert on whether a given individual is or isn't a nazi, therefore I accuse no one of it without sufficient evidence(much like Guy in this video). So to your own point, it would be wrong to accuse someone of say, abandoning a child, without sufficient evidence, claim or intricate understanding of the persons private life to do so, wouldn't it?
@@ExecratedPlaysGaming to bad he barely pay minumum support then, problebly the new younger GF cost alot.
my great grandmother survived through the 2nd world war and i asked her about hustotical wargaming and how she felt about people playing as the germans and she didn't mind it as she said it's a way of preserving history
Meanwhile warhammer where everyone is a Nazi
I once tried the "Tanks" Tabletop with a friend of mine(we are both German), and we had the opposite Problem. Both of us wanted to field the German Tanks. Mostly because of the asthetics.
There’s a second edition that’s called world of tanks and is an officially licensed miniature game based off the video game
You mean the blocky, made by idiots look?
I love historicals, and not just WW2. I’d prefer you stick to 40K tbh, I don’t think you can give them the respect they deserve.
100% spot on, they went into this video with the mind set of you play nazis you bad nazi. it wasn't an honest thought provoking video or even scratch the surface of why "historical" wargames aren't more popular. The biggest reason they aren't as popular as 40k is the simple fact is, which historical setting, the games go from bronze age to modern combat.
No problem at all playing any historical faction in a historical wargame because im an adult...
Id love to see a learn- to-play and a battle report on this game! Sounds great how you describe the gameplay and to me the two things exist simultaneously but separately; the make believe game and the actual thing. I think that applies to most people. Most of us get the distinction. And we can respect those who don't agree. Yeah, you might be "overthinking it". But that's from my point of view and better than not thinking about it at all. So well done for doing so! 🙂👍
Conclusion: Nice vid! More please.
Hang on a minute…… “WWII historicals are a bit icky….” ….. “Play world of warships”…..
Eh?
😄😄😄👍
I don't think that's what they said, they said "is this game not popular because of why" not "I'm saying this is icky I feel X or Y"
World of warships was a sponsor though you got that right lol.
Konflikd 47 is a decent weird war 2 game using Bolt Action rules but with an alternate history storyline. You get to use cool walkers and weird & wonderful Rift Technology. 😊
Yes, I own a German army for Konflict ‘47 and when I was purchasing the various units, I generally wanted to pick up stuff that had a sci-fi element to it, to differentiate it from the real historical background of Nazis. So, guys in clanking heavy armor, zombies, jet-pack troops, etc. The starter set came with some squads of plastic Wehrmacht… so, in the unlikely event I wind up actually painting any of this weird-war-2 army… I will be uncomfortable with that. I bought it all before I knew that there were actual creeps out there that are into this kind of thing for unsavory reasons, so I’m less inclined to paint this now.
@@danroberts007 yeah I got the British starter set with a small walker and some robot type heavy infantry can definitely see potential problems with certain historical miniatures tho. 🤔
@@danroberts007 Don't let those people stop you from enjoying your army - they're not worth even thinking about. The way I see it, it can be a win-win playing as the bad guys; either you win or the bad guys lose
And don't forget, with so much overlap, half the units you paint can be used in both Konflikt '47 and Bolt Action !
Don't want to paint the Na**, but painted the nation who drop two nuclear bombs. xD
"Terrorism is okay when our side does it"
Fat man and little boy go boom
a lot of people start with Warhammer tend to move on to historical games. also there's the modern war gaming community, which people have made armies for the Syrian conflict, Afghan and the war in Ukraine wasn't a mouth old before seeing T-90's with Z's on the side.
Jew here. As the grandson of a Russian Jewish soldier who drove a truck from Stalingrad to Berlin, I give you permission to play with little Nazi soldiers.
I promise you this will not turn you into Nazis.
PS, your line of thinking is why the gestapo gained power.
@@beardedbear9901 He's still going!!!!!!!!! Love to see it 😭
@@Tiamatdlord ok catamite.
That's exactly what a miniature nazi would say...
We call the modern day nazi; Americans. Dw the Russians and chinamen still beat you lot on pure villainy but it is a close race, gj pissing away the potential of north america
"Line of thinking" that the essthetics you use might say something about the way you see the world? How is that a controversial take?
This video makes me sad. I'm not a big historical wargamer myself, but I have some friends who are, and I've been to some of the largest historical wargaming conventions in the US. It's crazy ironic that this video has an add for World of Warships. Everything you say about wargaming would also be true for that game. Why would anyone play World of Warships unless they are a far-right lunatic obsessed with violence? It has Nazi u-boats, Japanese Battleships, etc. Same goes for the hundreds of other WW2 themed video games. This assumption about war games and war gamers is no different from believing violence in video games causes people to be violent.
I know you think by saying "Ohh, we don't know, maybe we're wrong, maybe wargames aren't nazi's at heart" makes it OK, but it doesn't. Even though you try to skirt around it, the implication is that historical war gamers are far-right crazies obsessed with war and violence. People generalize and this is a channel with a large reach. You've ensured there will be less historical wargamers by making this false association.
A very limited view of historical wargaming (not to mention the fact that in WoW you would have the same issues over Axis vessels as you have about miniatures depicting Axis armies). Historical wargaming is rather more than just WW2. I started (historical) wargaming thanks to a Donald Featherstone book I found in the local library as a kid. It covered WW2 plus American Civil War and Ancients. Featherstone was a WW2 veteran, having served in North Africa and Italy, and his rules were based on personal experience.
Ignoring a major part of wars in human history is a damn oxymoron for wargames
I play bolt action, and have an SS army. Not because I’m a far right nut job, but because I enjoyed collecting and painting them and because they have unique paint and cammo patterns on everything.I also have British which tbh have very boring paint jobs. I’ll probably start a new army soon, most likely Japan. No one I play games with sees anyone as the bad guys. They are tokens on a game board. And having fun is the main aim.
I feel the same but I have had people look at my SS figures and think it gives them free reign to express love of fascism.
Many people in the SS were not Nazis, many were never involved in any atrocities, many were simply in combat units.
@@cianmoriarty7345 that’s kind of irrelevant. You can’t separate the Hugo Boss uniforms from the ideology that spawned them. My point is that having nicely painted heer/ waffen SS figures sometimes crosses a weird line that makes other racist/far right people assume they’ve found a kindred spirit when they haven’t. I used to be quite fascinated with the looks of the camo smocks and sturmgewehr but yes in the end you grow up and recognize they were indeed the baddies! My dad was in the US Army in WW2 and I’m glad they won the war against fascism. Nevertheless I enjoy war gaming because of the ability to reenact history in that sense and I like to have accurate German soldiers.
@@cianmoriarty7345You might be able to convince people that the Wehrmacht were just soldiers but the SS were 100% committed nazi scum. They swore allegiance to the Nazis and Hitler, rather than Germany.
@@cianmoriarty7345 SS were the nazis, wermacht were the regular troops.
I had one of my favourite interactions in gaming because of Nazi miniatures.
A couple of years ago, I was in a local store (not hobby store) buying Vallejo paints when an older lady (late 60s - 70s) joined me. She was on her phone (with her daughter) and squinting at the labels on the paints, struggling to read them.
I offered to help her choose her paints and she explained that they're for her grandson who had just gotten into "A game where you build and paint little men and make them go to war." 😊
I asked what army he was collecting at which point she asks her daughter (on the phone) before turning to me and replying, in the sweetest, most grandmotherly voice, "He's painting Nazis."
Another customer who was passing gave myself and the lady a look that could have been confusion or genuine concern and hurried away, leaving us both laughing like children 😂
We spent a few minutes choosing paints and some brushes and went our ways. I even offered her some tips so she could sound like a pro to her grandson 😄
I hope her grandson liked his paints and is enjoying the hobby 😃
THIS ^^^
The hysterical and over intellectualised fear of nazi imagery that I've been seeing all over the internet gives them more cultural power after their destruction than they ever deserved in life (because the nazis were scum), and has revived their spectre in a sort of astroturfed Streisand Effect.
It's kind of weird, and it's gotten to the point where I've seen people on instagram freaking out and posting to their friends after seeing a German flag (today's Germany, not the old one) on a backpack, worrying if they're going to get murdered in the airport they're waiting in, just for being LGBT.
In my opinion, the people who get a guttural feeling any time they see a box of wehrmacht on the shelf, and agonize about the morality of historical reenactment, are putting too high a weight on the impact of symbolism on reality, and fetishising the nazis to the same degree as the neo nazis, only in a negative, anxiety inducing, self harming, way.
As an adjacent story, I asked the lady that works at the local toy store to get me a bottle of Vallejo Model Colour Black. With the dual Spanish / English labelling, she was horrified to be selling a product with "Negro Black" written on it.
@@Gumlass1 Literally actual Spanish. Ah Barcelona...Med Float 95' La' Oveja Negro night club..."The Black Sheep"
the big problem with historical wargames is just that most of us who want to play 'em can't afford 'em
that's it
Huh? Are you serious?? 40k has a 40% markup here compared to UK. 10 BATTLE SISTER FIGURES FOR 100 DOLLARS. For the same price I can get a 30 USA infantry box from Warlord games. That's an entire 500 pt army, because you can make mortars and machine guns with the box. Warhammer fanboys cannot comprehend this.
"Problematic" BOY WHAT THE HEEEEELLLL OH MY GOD NO WAAAAAYYYYEAYYYYEAAYYYYY
lets us know how Extra credits tombstone looks like on top of that hill you're on.
It is endlessly funny to me how they literally had the exact same take that Extra Credits did but somehow made it worse by accepting a World of Warships sponsorship.
Imagine of in the Extra Credits video at the end they say "And now thanks to our sponsor, Call of Duty WWII!"
I think it is worth mentioning that Little Wars TV - Deadly Fallujah video, has several ex-US army play a modern wargame set in the middle east. Their comments about playing a game are very informative, especially the point that they find the modern warfare games as therapeutic and allows them to compare what they have trained to do with those who have not had the training. In other words they treat the game as a game. I thought the Why Don't Women Play Wargames on the same channel offers more insight into why historial wargames are not that popular amongst modern wargamers.
Thats a channel that actually respects the history it showcases in wargaming form, unlike this disgrace I just watched.
what in the actual hell was that rant, that was some top notch kindergarden logic.
My great-grandfather, served in the US Airborne during the Second World War. My grandfather has seen and played a few games with and against my German models. He finds them to be really cool and fascinating, despite having a father who was involved in the conflict. Even he understands that it is just a game, even he understands that I am not a "Nazi" just because I have miniatures that represent vehicles of that time period. I still cannot believe that people think like this.
This video is, with all due respect, extremely ill informed and based mainly on assumptions rather than any real substance.
The Bolt Action & historical wargaming community is mainly played by and older audience which is generally much more mature and less inclined to any political extremes that more youthful people are due to the current political polarisation in the UK & USA.
Most people within the Bolt Action community play an Axis army because, due to the low entry cost, they have an army from each side to both be able to more easily introduce new players to the game and also to help balance event/tournaments. For most newer players, especially those who aren't as much into the history, are drawn to the iconic big cats (Tiger & Panther tanks) as these can make a great centrepiece to an army and are iconic vehicle for new players.
I feel if you guys had spent some time interacting with the Bolt Action community you'd have seen it is one of the most welcoming & helpful wargaming communities about and that in the 1/100000 time someone comes along who does hold those extreme political opinions they are not welcome.
I still love the channel but to me this video is a big negative and a backwards step for the channel that has generally been very intelligent about topics like this before.
Wasn't the hole point that this wasn't something they had much of an insight into. Being super intense about how you're all not super intense probably isn't the flex you thought it was.
for what it's worth I believe that Beyond the Gates of Antares (also from Warlord Games) uses the same basic rules system as Bolt Action but with traditional escapist sci-fi spacedudes and bug monsters
@@FrozenThrog oh cool didn't know about that! Checking it out now
Warlord Games also stopped making/supporting Gates last year. So while it is a sci-fi game that uses the same-ish rules, it's going to get progressively more difficult to find and play.
@@Jathom Warlord Games has handed off support to Rick and a team who are supporting it themselves. Have a search for Antares Nexus. Rules are available and being updated.
Gates of Antares was let down by it's model range :(
The main problem with Warlord ranges is... Warlord. They are in the habit of buying off independent miniature ranges, and then breaking them down to pieces. This results in massive scale and style differences even among the same thematics. Some models are very nice and some are absolute crap. The main issue with the Gates of Antares is that the models are extremely mediocre. I have seen them up close and I would not buy them.
I think the biggest thing with hisotrical gaming that makes it not as popular is how fractured the community is, history entails thousands of years and hundreds of war, not everyone is going to do ww2, some may do Punic War, some may do American Civil War, some may do Shogunate, some may do Early Medieval. Armies take a lot of time and since there's just so many options people have to pick and choose what they want to play
I mean, you don't exactly see the sword and sorcery people, the grimdark future people, and the starship battle people playing together either.
@@keiyakins You can have vastly different themes in the same tabletop game for fantasy and scifi, in historicals you have much more limited options
My problem with historicals is the minis and rule sets are spread out between hundreds of companies. I buy Warhammer, I know the other guy I'm playing against is playing the same set of rules and minis. If I wanted to play Napoleonic, like... where the heck do I even start? Even if I find someone else that plays historicals, AND this other person is even playing the same era, there's no guarantee they're playing the same rules and scale. I'm having a easier time finding opponents to play Battletech.
I like historical games and don't have problems playing bad guys, because it is only a game. I am from Poland so for me bad guys are also soviets. Important part of history is to warn us about old mistakes to avoid them in future. Pretending something didn't exist is not a good solution.
Agree, also as czech i usually play as Poles in historical wargames like Flames of War etc ( or Kislev :D)
You're not "pretending something doesn't exist" if you just choose to not play historical wargames 🥴
Yeah, with historical games people might be more eccentric and going for a certain faction as they think it looks cool, but they won't be in to the politics so much.
Whereas if someone brings that in to 40k, they are absolutely in to the politics.
@@geronimo8159 This is true. I actually stopped because getting all of the equipment and camo patterns etc. just right, was nearly a full time job. I'm sitting on like 20 lbs of WWII minis (Germans and Americans, was going to do a battle of the bulge thing). Thankfully, the major plus side of WWII minis is that they are cheap as all heck and I scored huge discounts with black Friday sales. So all of that probably only costs the same as 2 Horus Heresy starter boxes(if that).
This is an excellent point - but I can tell this isn't an area of expertise for Midwinter Minis
In my experience, and I work in the industry and have seen sale figures.
there is a LOT of historical gamers, you don't see them en masse for a few reasons - mainly they focus on niche eras further limiting their player base, BUT more importantly, Historical gamers are more introverted. - I run a club in my spare time and what went from just myself and a friend playing bolt action in a store has grown to 30+ members hosting multiple tournaments within a year.
Not every German is a Nazi either - if you don't want to play as a Nazi, then paint them as any regular army unit - in LOTR someone has to play as Orks, that doesn't stop people playing it
"Not every German was a Nazi". Exactly, every nation had folks who were just patriots, who saw duty and honor in service to the country, But unfortunately that kind of nuance is lost on the historically illiterate.
@@Dr.LightMarker5613 - Bullsh*t, the actual German patriots were the labor unionist, socialist, professors, authors and artists of the '30s who were rounded up or forced to flee for their convictions. You don't get to call yourself patriot for merely following marching orders, while invading and occupying Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium, France etc. At best you were a weak willed propagandized collaborator, complicit in the crimes of the regime, and at worst you were an actual f'n n*zi.
@@Dr.LightMarker5613 In fairness the average american cant claim innocence while paying taxes and voting in representatives that proceed to invade a middle eastern nation, if your soldiers murder my family, your ass will be grass, or any other american, why?
It keeps you nuanced about being a people of imperialists in denial, like the average russian, oh no, nobody wants to be responsible and thus the nation admits to be composed by cowardly robbers
the clean wehrmacht myth has been discredited for decades now, maybe you guys should bone up on your historical reading
@Ryan White no army in ww2 is clean.
But most of the wehrmacht was just regular men doing their duty the same as Any other nations soldiers.
For every atrocity you find, you can also find a parallel story of a soldier doing the right thing against all odds.
Life is not black and white, but shades of grey.
Let's not forget that the German army you play in a historical skirmish could well be the same German forces that at the end of the war fought alongside the allies against the SS at Castle Itter
Its a game. It may be historical but you have to detach from reality. Just because someones pushing a panzer or king tiger across the board doesnt mean they identify with those same ideals. Some will for sure, but thats the minority.
@beardedbear9901 doesnt 40k have space nazis and commies whats your point