Can't believe I found this video...My guardian angel must have led me to it..Has made me feel so much better..I'm going through exactly what you are talking about , feeling hostility from the Christians around me when I tried to open up exploration beyond their limited world... Made me feel sad and lonely. I am looking for my own people! I'm happy to find they are out there and having the same concerns I am. Thank you so much.
Ahhh welcome my friend, glad you found the video. Yup you aren’t alone. If you want to jump in our discord community for Patreon supporters let me know - no need to be a supporter of the show, happy to invite you in anyways. Much love to you on your journey!
Elaine's views on religion and spirituality is refreshing. I grew up in the Princeton region and have had gnostic experiences before ever hearing about Gnosticism. There is a lot going on beyond the material universe that we do not fully comprehend.
@@asteroxfoundation what a bunch of pretend to see unknown pretend to be known deaf pretend to hear blind pretend to see fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretending to understand educated guessers running mouth age over
Pathological lying refuse to anything but pretend to understand guess know deceive even self unknown exactly believe your own lies unknown strangers in self proclaimed people proclaimed for what false prophet all could proclaim
It makes me so happy that she is 80!!!! And so alert and brilliant still. Well this is a couple of years old so she was 78 probably. Still really good. Psalm 147 is my favourite for many reasons and now I feel like it will also remind me of her, especially verse 3, God heals the brokenhearted and binds their wounds. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼Amen.
My wife and I just watched this fascinating interview and found it so insightful! I especially liked Elaine's comment that early Christianity saw itself as "The Way", or "The Path". I hope you don't mind me sharing my own experience in life in searching for the Path. "What if?" is a wonderful way to open up to all the possibilities, and it also is the mother of all questions. I was not raised in a religious family, so my family was not a source of spiritual knowledge or fear, but I was curious....and interested as a teen and did join a wonderful church which didn't emphasize fear. But my first year of college I took world history and learned the stories of all the great world religions and "the Path" they provided, and the question inside of me was "What if I had been born in India at the time of Buddha?" Would I have followed that path, because it really seems attractive and insightful. What if I had been born in the right time and location for any of the religions, would those paths have attracted my heart? The answer was yes. My reasoning was, and is, that if God loves all humanity equally, then He will provide a "Path" for them to approach spirituality couched in words and teachings tailored to the culture and spiritual background of that era and location. Sort of like teachers in school tailor lessons to suit the age and maturity of the students. Each teacher knows that she/he is not the last teacher the kids will have, so the kids don't receive all the knowledge the teacher possesses. Our knowledge and learning accumulates over time and we may not remember what our first grade teacher taught us, but it was just as important as any other teacher later on. So there I was, calling myself a Christian but realizing that all of these other religions were equally valid as "The Way", at least to my understanding. I really felt alone spiritually, because I didn't know anybody else with these questions, or maybe people did have them but were afraid to say what they felt. Then I came across a "Way" which included all the spiritual "Ways" mentioned above. The name of this Way is Baha'i, a name which you may not be familiar with. Baha'is believe in Christ and the Founders of all the great historical religions as being equally valid as "The Path", that this Path gradually becomes overgrown over time with the weeds of superstition and ignorance and needs to be renewed without the weeds. The Path also needs to be widened to accommodate more and broader understandings. I resonate with your comment about feeling closer to God now even though you're not going to a church. In one sense, God is within us, not somewhere "out there" in the universe. That's my understanding of man being made in the image of God. It's not a physical thing but a spiritual thing. Christians look to Christ as being a perfect reflection of that spiritual reality we call God. He manifests the divine qualities like a perfect mirror reflects the light of the sun. We see the sun in the mirror, but the sun is actually 94 million miles from earth. That's the way I understand Jesus' statement "If you see me, you see the Father". The Baha'i view is that the Founders of World Religions could have made the same statement, and some did. Here's a quote from Baha'i scripture which addresses the idea of the presence of God within: O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting. I just wanted to give you perhaps more questions! That's what a friend does. Questions are more important than answers, because without the questions, there can be no answers. As a last idea, the Baha'i Faith in my opinion is what Christ would have established had He been living in our age. Baha'u'llah, the Founder of this Faith, wrote over a hundred volumes Himself so that people wouldn't have to rely on hearsay; he abolished any form of clergy; He emphasized that all children must be educated, especially the girls; He put science and religion on equal footing, it's all about what's real; He proclaimed the oneness of humanity, we're all one family; He advised the nations of the world to unite to avoid war; He told us to rid ourselves of prejudices; He let us know what many of us suspect, that women and men are of equal worth and status, deserving the same opportunities in life. The name "Baha'u'llah" is Arabic for "The Glory of God", so it's a spiritual title like Christ is the spiritual title of Jesus.
I pray you and yours are doing OK five months since this comment. Thank you for sharing. To me, it seems like Jesus AKA Josh explained, to paraphrase: “I am the Tao and Sharira and Enlightenment.” I appreciate you and your wife’s earnest search. 🙏🙌✌️
Jesus said He did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword. Uniting the nations sounds like a NWO One World Government effort. If someone does not like you because that are evil and destructive are we supposed to make peace w them and be friends? Conflict is good and peace w the world is not good. We all have characteristic traits that span all across a spectrum, except for the fact that we all have a void for Love, a connscience that gives us an awareness between right & wrong. We all have a sense of eternity, a sense of a spirit, a desire for freedom and a desire for justice. All of these traits that we all posssess must have been part of the design or would even have evolved for a reason, no different than if 6 or 7 of our physical traits are each present for a reason. They can not just be dismissed. Sin is wrong. Sin occurs anytime when we step out of our shoes and into Gods. How can one gain salvation by esoteric knowledge? what exactly are you being saved from? and how can the ultimate truth be a personal understanding or experience? Truth is not something that bends backwards or has no boundaries or extra space to fill in for everyones side of the story--its black & white.
Your're right that Jesus did not come to bring peace, but Baha'u'llah did. The U.S. is a model for what the world can become, with 50 semi-independent states united under one federal government. A federal judiciary allows problems between states to be resolved through the courts, and not on the battlefield. This system can, and will, be expanded to include the nations of the world resolving their problems through legal means rather than war. Didn't Jesus teach us to love our enemy, to turn the other cheek? We may not want to be close to evil people, but we love them and help them become better. Concerning our natural state, our natural tendencies, it's true that we are all born with the quality of self-centeredness, of aggressiveness, etc., but we don't remain as we were born if we learn self-control through good parenting and divine teachings. We mature into people who care for others. Cultures and societies also can mature from aggressive and warlike qualities to higher forms of civilization. Mature societies can recognize that all countries benefit from peaceful relationships based on justice. Every living thing changes from immature stages to mature stages, and cultures and civilizations are living things. We are designed to mature, to change. @@dav1djac0b
I did email Elaine two years ago about meeting for tea since she lives so close to me! I'll try again. She's a gem. Great interview so crucial for faithful people. My takeaway is that people are afraid. Of so much and its unconscious. If we trust our relationship to hearing from our own insight, integrity, soul and the Holy Spirit we discern all at the foot of the cross. Truth is worked out over our lifetimes. And we have nothing to fear.
I don't want to throw away any of God or exchange it from man's made orthodoxy or canon, I just want to open my chest and brain with an invitation to Jesus and spirit thr
Elaine is the kind of Christian who makes a person want to be a Christian and not wince when they hear the term. I love her insight and her spirit! Thanks for this podcast!
What an outstanding interview with Elaine Pagels. I have been watching almost every video interview she's conducted. The ending notes of reconciling these new teachings with orthodoxy and current doctrine really helped enlighten the questions I had about doing just that. I feel there is so much more out there about the historical church and Christianity than we have today and she has done an outstanding job at shedding light on these topics in a way that doesn't attack the faith but compliments it and expands upon it.
What a beautiful conversation! I just became aware of Elaine Pagels yesterday and am so enamored with the information she has shared, her kindness and depth of knowledge. So intriguing!
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast Thank you. This channel strengthens my 'free thinking' without me fearing that I'm going to hell if I die while cursing etc. But now I lost faith in faith. Maybe it's the religious trauma, but I can't believe I was one of those people who said "I'll pray for you" and other 'christianese' talk. Thank you for replying and caring about your listeners. 💛
@@KLmoxie ahh I love to hear that you feel at home here. If you want more community I’ll add you to our Patreon Discord group, no need to sign up on Patreon. Just email me at whatifproject.net@gmail.com - lots of friends to make in the group! ❤️🙏🏻👏🏻
Great interview. Ms Pagels books helped me find the Twin of Jesus. Maybe I read too much into the Gospel of Thomas and Phillip, but it drove me to write a trilogy, after I became a twin. We are all twin spirits of the divine spirit. We need to draw that spirit out of the minutia. Thanks for listening. ron
I started down a spiritual journey about 8 months ago as I approached my 10th year of sobriety. It wasn’t until 3 months ago that I had decided to read, study, and comprehend the book of Genesis for the first time and as an adult. I wasn’t searching for anything, just wanted to read it for myself. The book of Genesis opened my eyes and made me question all of my long held beliefs. First off, I don’t know the God of the Old Testament as I thought I did. And as far as all of the “righteous”people in Genesis, I didn’t like any of them. They all seemed slimy to me. Except Joseph that is, I was alright with him. It’s scary but quite amazing at the same time. I have never felt closer to God as I do on this journey.
Thanks I appreciate that! We are in our 3rd full year of the show. Not many videos from the first 2 years, most are audio because I had some video issues when recording. You can find all the other episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. Right how we’re replaying some old episodes and new episodes are starting up in January, they’ll be video and audio. Thanks for watching!
@@MichaelYoder1961 thanks! The first 2 1/2 years I had bad wifi and so I did very little video with the podcasts, it was recorded all audio. BUT now I’m able to do video because we made a few changes to our internet! I’ll be releasing new episodes in January and so I’ll be posting the videos on UA-cam 👍🏻👍🏻 I appreciate the encouragement!
Elaine is such a gift! Like Dr. Bart, she makes things easy to understand with a wealth of knowledge and a sense of humour. Thanks! Get her back to talk about Revelation...💞
Thank you! One of my favorite people that I’ve had the honor of speaking with. I really want to get her back on in 2022, fingers crossed! Revelation would be a great topic. And Bart is finishing a book on Revelation too … getting them both on at once would be a dream 😍
I really loved the conversation. Also the sensitive and tactful "sures" and "yeahs" from the interviewer. A plea for a more open-minded, Jesus centered spiritual approach and less dogmas. More trust in growing and developing. Thx!❤
Thanks Randy! I try to be a human when I talk to my guests like I’d be if we were out for coffee, and not a robot. I appreciate the feedback and am glad you found the convo helpful! ✌🏻&❤️
I had a head on encounter with my Maker Jesus in my living room 18 years ago then I started going to church. Bad mistake. I have been deconstructing the last 3 years from man made religion or the devil was trying to do to me. When I read the gospel of Thomas I cry because it’s so deep as we see God in our eyes!
@@fritula6200 Just remember that the Catholic Church put together the Bible and it has some mystical undertones if you dig for them as a treasure. Jesus came to give us Himself so that we would become Him on this earth. It’s not hard to do if you humble yourself as a little child and die to yourself. You’re the problem.
John lamb Lash has an excellent book about Gnosticism :titled “Not In His Image” which totally destroys the Salvationist,Redeemer God and explains things that in my opinion make way more sense. A very good read.✌🏼
I envy Elaine Pagels. All this came to late for me. Once I'd lost faith I was unable to go back. I still have an interest but I don't have that spirituality anymore. The sunny side of it is that I don't have severe depression anymore either. I'm grounded. I might take a look on Spotify to check out your earlier stuff.
I'm happy to hear that the severe depression has cleared up! I am grateful for discovering this early in my life. I turn 40 next month and have a bachelors degree and 2 graduate degrees from an Evangelical school. I was at my wits end for a bit and then I opened the floodgates to the questions and am grateful to have found people like Pagels, Ehrman, and others who have really cut the leash off of me and made me feel like it's OK to just be me.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast If we could all do that, have access to information and be free to ask and walk our own paths, I don't know what good could come of it but I believe a whole lot!
Thank you. I can relate so deeply with your post. I lost my faith and can’t go back, but I don’t feel that fear, control, or deep depression anymore. My religious trauma was from childhood indoctrination and lasted into my early 30s.
The Islamic mystical tradition she referred to is probably sufism (sunni is not considered mystical) Nice interview, Elaine is always interesting to listen to!
Thank you both. Matthew 20:16 Jesus states The last shall be first and the first last. Esoteric teachings are not for everyone but if it brings one closer to spiritual understanding of Jesus and the one he calls his father so be it. I remind myself that Jesus himself was considered a heretic by certain church leaders at the time. Heresy means choice. Thanks for opening up the idea of choice which involves risk and rewards. It may well be the rewards outweigh the risks when reviewing the Gospel Of Thomas ❤
Elaine, I knew William James was Henry's bro and a psychologist, but not about his "spiritual crisis". To me that gives him and his work a deal more authority. (Thanks)
Thanks for watching! As an FYI, a new episode with Elaine will be dropping on Sunday night, we go deep into her book 'Why Religion?" and talk about grief and loss.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast Don't fret. Christ has won. No one true in Him will go away. Satan's purpose always fails. Everything works together for the good of those who love God, and God uses what is evil to bring about what is good.
I would have so enjoyed being a research assistant to Ms. Pagels during her studies. Alas, I'm so very unqualified. So I must settle for being a layman fan.
16:40 The primary Islamic esoteric tradition is Sufism. There's also the Subud Brotherhood, which originated in Indonesia, and appears to have been influenced by Hinduism. But that may be because all esoteric religions contain the same universal truths.
Doesn't really address the issue of why it is taking so long to come back, but I do love the sentiment and might start attending local religious practices for love and social interaction....would I be accepted?
Catholic school taught kids as young as 6 they must be willing to die for the faith rather than deny it if ever put in the position of having to choose. I refer to mid 1960 s
I came across this channel looking for Elaine Pagels and the gnostic gospels. I think you should have informed the audience about Ms. Pagels academic credentials. Not only her books. That will help appreciate more the information. I think.
Pagel's approach to religious topics is refreshing when compared with desperate evangelizing greedy apologists. Intellect vs agendas. Would Elaine / believers remain faithful if eternal life were not promised? Even the gnostics, today and ancient, fear death, a driving force of most religions.
The thought of eternal life makes me nauseous. I just want to RIP. The fact they none of the text include information of dinosaurs makes me think religion was man made based on politics, land ownership, and power.
Listening to this makes one really wonder what is real and what's been accepted as real and brainwashed into our minds since childhood. We won't know until we pass.
I think Constantine was more of a politician than a Christian. I'm not to sure about his "vision" in which Jesus said "support me and you will kick ass on the battlefield" either.
What one does methodologically on this one is go on to understand why is it that certain ecumenical synods accepted the Bible only in this current form. In other words, they search the archives for this *second hand info.*
I am sure i went from hating mr paige to totally loving and understanding and admiring elaine paige. Just a patient human being. ❤not a karen not disrespectful to anyone even me a born again Christian. All kinds of christians out there. In my personal life i always hated christians and christianity an love nature medicines and shrooms... Then through shrooms jesus cme to my life and said to be the on of God in th earth so we could undertand him.while here. Now the bible jesus and the church jesus is Not 🚫 my jesus that saves me from the dark beings and takes me home 🏡 forever. Even now. Looks like religious leaders such as priests invented evolution and big bang theory
You would think that if there really is a personal God who 1) loved us 2) is powerful enough to say make the universe... That out of compassion such a being would present Itself in a manner that wouldn't be so obscure and difficult to find. Wouldn't such a God at least be obvious enough to reveal itself in a consistent way, thus removing all these competiting variations? Or is that a heretic's question? Options: 1) no such God exists 2) God exists, but but isn't concerned about our knowledge of it. 3) God exists and wants us to know it correctly, but dosen't have the power 4) shut up and buy into someone else's orthodoxy. God wants you to get it second hand The last option is interesting because it's the one I bet that a lot of comments are going espouse. "God did love you... enough to write a holy book." Great. You have exactly the same idea that Muslims, Jews and Mormons believe. And what am I supposed to do with my knowledge about how many errors: scientific, technical, historical, moral, accidental, intentional etc... study of those books reveals?
I can see that, and honor that question - it’s a good one! Thanks for sharing. For me, I enjoy the mystery of it all and I’m not sure God cares where we land in terms of our faith or beliefs but is most concerned that the faith and beliefs lead us to be truer versions of ourselves and ultimately more loving, compassionate, etc. That sort of approach allows me to feel very open to exploring various faiths and beliefs and ideas.
This dilemma was the dilemma of many early Christians. But I will offer my personal perspective. God is a reflection of the totality of man. Even if Gnostics tried to envision a transcendent God, one that transcends both Good and Evil then he will manifest as both Good and Evil. Even if you envision a God that is totally Good, then you have a God unaware of Evil. So what we are dealing with is how human beings can over come evil, what is evil for themselves and others. For me one of the most profound responses to this problem was Hannah Arendt in her Banality of Evil where she said it is never enough to proclaim or believe that you are moral and Good, you actually have to work at it, and address these difficult questions. Arendt pointed out that Eichmann actually proclaimed a Kantian morality but obviously did not follow that morality at all, he was concerned with social approval. Arendt’s observation is certainly one addressed in the Gospels as well. But it’s not enough to raise the Gospel up in an idolatrous way. If how to “overcome evil” is a serious and ultimate concern of yours then take the issue seriously. If you find ways of doing that through the Bible great, if you find it elsewhere great. But to over come evil culturally we have to do it both in ourselves, and have good faith discussions in regards to it with each other. Using a religion to reinforce tribalism is a horrendous strategy of overcoming evil.
There are many scholars that wrote books that state Jesus did not exist in history. I did my research and found that to be true. I still like alot of the things she wrote.
Thank you WIP and always love toward Dr. Pagels. 1. Seek and you shall find [2. When you find you’ll be disturbed. 3. After you’re disturbed? You’ll marvel. 4. After you marvel you’ll reign over all]. 🕎✡️✝️🛐🐪🪡🗝🪜⚰️☸️🔄♋️☯️☮️🧿🪬💚🙏✌️♾
She isn't so close to getting free of Christianity. I understand that it is possible to have so called mystical experiences and blend that in with what ever their background in youth was . At some point you get too invested to change and that is fine , probably where most of us are doing on many levels. I spent time having unusual experiences, exploring eastern philosophy etc. then just stopped. Other things took over.
Anyone who thinks old testament is to learn like psalms and hve it inur heart ❤️ u have ben deceived ny satan. This is the end times as much as i love this lady ... Marj of the beast is 2030 and jesus cannot come until then ....
What got the Gnostics killed was they claimed the God of the Old Testament was evil. As it turns out it's only the God in the Masoretic text that is evil. The Samaritan Pentateuch is the real Old Testament and has Yehowah instead of Yahweh.
In my humble and uneducated opinion, gods must have specific names for specific ideals of them. Is praying to Yehowah the same as YHWH, or Yahweh? Elohim, El, El Elyon? Baal, Ahura Mazda, Shaitan, Satan? It's entirely and humorously possible that if you misaddress your prayers while praying to the wrong deity, such prayers end up in the dead prayer office and returned to sender as undeliverable.
What is a false prophet if not a self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything can't test this moment play the man of understanding not even close
See The Gnostic Gospels, by Elaine Pagels. From the Introduction … … Orthodox Jews and Christians insist that a chasm separates humanity from its creator: God is wholly other. But some of the gnostics who wrote these gospels contradict this: self-knowledge is knowledge of God; the self and the divine are identical. Second, the "living Jesus" of these texts speaks of illusion and enlightenment, not of sin and repentance, like the Jesus of the New Testament. Instead of coming to save us from sin, he comes as a guide who opens access to spiritual understanding. But when the disciple attains enlightenment, Jesus no longer serves as his spiritual master: the two have become equal-even identical. Third, orthodox Christians believe that Jesus is Lord and Son of God in a unique way: he remains forever distinct from the rest of humanity whom he came to save. Yet the gnostic Gospel of Thomas relates that as soon as Thomas recognizes him, Jesus says to Thomas that they have both received their being from the same source: Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become drunk from the bubbling stream which I have measured out. ... He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."
In my humble and uneducated opinion, gods must have specific names for specific ideals of them. Is praying to Yehowah the same as YHWH, or Yahweh? Elohim, El, El Elyon? Baal, Ahura Mazda, Shaitan, Satan? It's entirely and humorously possible that if you misaddress your prayers while praying to the wrong deity, such prayers end up in the dead prayer office and returned to sender as undeliverable.
The basic ideas in the Gospel of Thomas is explained by Carl Jung. What Carl Jung prescribed was knowing your shadow, knowing the rejected aspects of yourself that you project onto others. Jesus gives the same advise in Matthew 7 of remove the beam in your own eye. It is also in Thomas: (26) Jesus said, "You (sing.) see the speck in your sibling's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye. When you expel the beam from your own eye then you will be able to see to expel the speck from the eye of your sibling." Jung said upon doing shadow reclaiming, both what we project on men and women a person would eventually have a spontaneous experience confrontation with the unconscious in the form of a Self and one would realize that they are Adam Kadmon, the anthropos before Adam was divided into male and female. But Jung also warned about this experience as well, as a time of possibility of inflation. Are all people eligible for this realization? Not everyone cares. Not everyone is concerned. Not everyone is troubled by their contradictions. And so what do you do in these cases? The institution of private admissions of sin of confessions seems to have at least addressed this problem in a ritualistic way in the Catholic Church since the 11th century. There will never be a perfect institutional church. But there can be rituals that help people gain greater awareness.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast She is really interesting! And I am only having a joke with you, I hope you got that, just couldn't resist. Old party game and it would have been perfect lol. I enjoyed the interview though, thanks for sharing.
Hahaha nah I got you. Sometimes a guest comes and truly leaves me speechless like I’m trying to digest what they just said and formulate my next thought, Elaine is one of those people lol. I just recorded with her about Revelation, that episode will drop next month sometime. I appreciate you, thanks again for dropping by! 🙏🏻
She is wrong about a Buddhisims and hindu Dharma .. tantra is central to our practice and is not juat esoteric.. tantra actually means technology. It was the European colonization ( our continued mental abrahamization) that demonized the tantra practice. A lot of our holidays and the practice is tantra but peope aren't always aware because it is everyday practice.
The way you guys are putting things, the message in the gnostic gospels is closer to the false promise the devil made to Adam and Eve, than to the teaching of Jesus and the prophets. I Mean, The general understanding of the Prophets, and Jesus' teachings, is that the chosen people of God ,and people in general are fallen and in need of a savour. Whears the promise of the devil is: " you are Gods" and Your God is hiding things so you don't evolve".Reality shows humans need a saviour and people in general, believe that is something is deeply felt , then it's true, and thud good. Well, that's the reason why many poweful people have committed atricities,talk about gender identity) In regards to the discerning of spirits, the origing of a spirit, has nothing to do with how one feels, but the actions they perform, namely by "their fruits"
7:35 I apologize but it is utterly illogical what Mrs Pagels draws from Mark 4. The „secrets“ in Mark are recorded in Mark. It‘s Jesus‘ clarification of the public parables. Read yourselves: „Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he was teaching them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow…. …And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables… …With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it. He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.“ Mark 4:1-3, 10-13, 33-34
If you don't want to deconstruct then don't read the gnostic gospels. You can't take the red pill and stay in the matrix. She is leaving some stuff out. 🙈🙊🙉
THe early CHRISTIANS were Catholic: The slaughter of Christians Catholics began in the Roman Amphitheatres: 2 Saints.. For their unwillingness to give ip their Faith , all were sent to the public games in the amphitheater. There Saint Perpetua and Saint Felicity were beheaded, and the others killed by beasts. Saint Perpetua had given birth in jail: and breastfeed her baby, before walking out to die. They are Saints because they chose Jesus Christ and not themselves: Read about them:
You clueless about what protects freedom and justice impossible to be we the people and not understand how the truth protects freedom and Injust protects the just
Man this woman carries on with so much nonsense about the gnostic gospels, because the very early church leaders regarded them as false. They are later compositions well removed in their writing period from the time of Christ. They had no "apostolic authority", Theological scholars of any credibility have discredited these books or scrolls for good reasons . The 4 gospels of the New Testament did have this authority. The gospel of Thomas regarded as the earliest of the many so-called gnostic scrolls was written in the second century AD. Crap man, the list goes on and on about the fact that these writings were frauds and so far removed in time from the events of the New Testament and the life and time of Christ. Dan Brown in his book "the Da Vinci Code" made a fortune on the same lie, being that these scrolls contain hidden truths about Jesus, In fact he says or implies Jesus was married, which was pretty much the thrust of his whole book. Brown then makes the ridiculous statement that these were authentic texts written by the apostles. This is completely and utterly historically inaccurate. For anybody unfamiliar with early Church history, people like this woman here and Dan Brown make quite a name for themselves and a good deal of money, because people believe them. Please everyone go and do your own research. Furthermore, Constantine never really became a Christian. He certainly used early Christianity as a political expedient for himself, Constantine believed in a Sun God as deity . His religion was known as "Sol Invictus". Constantine was essentially a worshipper of a pagan religion. Christianity of course went on to become the official religion of the Roman Empire and Constantine saw it coming. Even Rome itself could no longer persecute and ignore the monolithic number of followers of Jesus Christ and the religion that bore his name. The discreditors of the person of Jesus Christ have been with us for centuries. None have succeeded in tearing down his name, the person he was nor the Holy Scriptures that are the true testimony of who he was and why he came.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I am not a theologian I am a historian. Elaine Pagels reputation as a media scholar is undeserved. She has been critiqued by many professors and is regarded as a non-academic who is more of novelist than anything else. Yes, she has qualifications, but she is nowhere nearly qualified for the work she is engaged in. Professor Paul Mankowski an absolutely brilliant scholar from the Pontifical Institute, is one of the foremost experts on Christian Literature and Textual Criticism, among other things. His credential or degrees are as long as your arm my friend. Mankowski regards Pagels as an academic fraud or possibly even a heretic. I suggest you go and research this professor and see what he has to say, be prepared for a long read. I must add by the way, and I'm sorry to have say this, but your reply was rather inane.
@@andrewmiller4885 you still didn't answer the question - what have you read about the topic of the Gnostic texts outside of the readings that tell you what you want to hear? My reply was directed at your own "inane" comment that the texts are "frauds". 1 Timothy is a "fraud" as well - it wasn't written by Paul. Do you still read it? Value it? How about the Gospels? We don't know who wrote them, but do know that pieces were added to them over the years by scribes - do you still read them? Value them? Even though they are (in a sense) "frauds"? Whatever the case may be, I don't see any of these texts (Canonical or non) having the purpose of being historical records of the happenings of Jesus' times and life, but stories written to encourage people as they followed in the Way of Christ. That "Way" was not as narrow as Orthodoxy has led us to believe. As a historian, I'm sure you're aware that the earliest centuries were diverse and wide and filled with many different understandings of Jesus that were squashed by people in power. The Gnostic texts shine light on that diversity of belief and I think that's a valuable thing to consider when trying to follow Jesus all these years later. Not everyone sees it that way and that's quite alright with me. ✌🏻
@andrewmiller4885 I didn’t know you were there, that’s incredible! 🙄 No one knows “the truth.” The ONLY reason nations, especially the western world has not disputed the christian religion is because it has been forced by colonialism. People were killed if they did not convert and that fear and trauma was passed down. It’s only now that people are becoming less afraid to step outside of what has been forced. Christianity is a fear based religion. Just as Zoroastrianism and many other religions died out and animals become extinct, so will Christianity and other religions, more animals, and then the future population will have something else. If there were no Spanish Inquisition and Christopher Columbus colonization, the people in the Caribbean and North & South Americas would have remained in their ways and cultures, belief systems, and continued living without ever knowing. The King James Version was edited and translated by a colonialist. It was the rewritten and translated after that etc. He also promoted the burning and hatred of women using herbs and persecuted innocent girls and women. It is a tool. Once out of the cognitive dissonance of religion, you can’t unsee it.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast why any think they known to the true virgin mother creator and won't taste death ? What could make any of you think you shown what no eye has seen heard what no ears ever heard given what no human has ever been given ?
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast what you guess you figured it out self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything unknown to even self divided became two the day you one you became two . Play its you seen anything heard anything shown nothing heard nothing unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything all could proclaim and best be done playing games is law if not proven without a doublt three times over before he was born three times three times over out womb and in man born known before he was born proclaimed three times over before he was born known to the true virgin mother creator walked the golden Path seen beginnings from ends first became last last first seen beginnings from ends returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in one many out womb and in man born and five stand as one . Is no debate or game best know play I figured it out hell no I seem watched heard given what no human has ever been given the true and just golden Path cause and effect given Amnesty from law won't taste death out womb and in man born again in life is Christ born 18.1.24 judgement multiply once see perfect harmony in balance with all in laws above and beyond Natures and God's see to shining sea canon to canon in-laws Corp and found the body became a Corps Michael my God given name and God's Army will stand real soon international trade law international stamp treaty Switzerland international postal union the Switzerland international postal union returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in one whole in one means whole in one in Greek two became one three returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in oneany out womb and in man born the living untouchable living book was in me before I was born Jeremy
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast best be done playing the hope for the man of understanding question all trust none many false prophets says exactly how to test this moment best know it and it's not you if it's me how guessed you anything besides self proclaimed figured it out fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly unknown void in know deceiving even self unknown to even self divided became two the day you one you became two.5 true .5 just make two into one and I AM there . Is no tell me I just saying what it says and it's my twin who the hell you pretending to be
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I am the hope for the man of understanding see is I am the untouchable living book twin was in me before I was born a Trinity first and last beginning and end one and 99 born 100 add move right repeat return to one 1.24.75
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast the man Flys without wings choosen before I was born the man of steel Flys without wings born next to two sleeping giants and a bottomless pit on international inland lake in the purple and gold state two became one in ten thousand three returned in one whole in one whole in one many M1911 Michael my God given name and given God's given understanding told to tell many Mary became a man squashed seeds head of snake eating tail returned a child is without doubt God must see eyes just true beauty Path be known to the
@WhatIfProjectPodcast out womb in 7months in the golden known age of Aquarius born 1.24.75 add move right repeat return to one Jeremy Michael Middle name nicknamed moezer at 3 speech impediment shortened to moe out womb next to two sleeping giants and a bottomless pit on international inland lake in the purple and gold state five stand as one M1911 Michael my God given name
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast because it's the truth not figured it out self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets deaf ears figured it out deceiving self exactly guessing guessing you understand pretend to be known fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand . Question none pretend to understand guess you know void in know unknown swine that direction
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast how hear at the end of the age question none all pretend to understand deceiving self exactly self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything
Elaine is a joy to listen to. She's my favorite gnostic.
Then you will love this Gnostic with forthcoming e books. The Truth about the Devil, and The Man with Ten Horns.
Can't believe I found this video...My guardian angel must have led me to it..Has made me feel so much better..I'm going through exactly what you are talking about , feeling hostility from the Christians around me when I tried to open up exploration beyond their limited world... Made me feel sad and lonely. I am looking for my own people! I'm happy to find they are out there and having the same concerns I am. Thank you so much.
Ahhh welcome my friend, glad you found the video. Yup you aren’t alone. If you want to jump in our discord community for Patreon supporters let me know - no need to be a supporter of the show, happy to invite you in anyways. Much love to you on your journey!
Us humans are fortunate for BOTH of you...thank you so much for your courage!
Thanks Mike, and thanks for watching ✌🏻
Elaine's views on religion and spirituality is refreshing. I grew up in the Princeton region and have had gnostic experiences before ever hearing about Gnosticism. There is a lot going on beyond the material universe that we do not fully comprehend.
So true thanks for sharing!
@@asteroxfoundation what a bunch of pretend to see unknown pretend to be known deaf pretend to hear blind pretend to see fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretending to understand educated guessers running mouth age over
Pathological lying refuse to anything but pretend to understand guess know deceive even self unknown exactly believe your own lies unknown strangers in self proclaimed people proclaimed for what false prophet all could proclaim
That was awesome! I've only just ben introduced to Elaine and I am blissfully mind blown! Thank you so much.
Awesome, so glad you found her work - it's been a huge help to me! Thanks for watching :)
It makes me so happy that she is 80!!!! And so alert and brilliant still. Well this is a couple of years old so she was 78 probably. Still really good. Psalm 147 is my favourite for many reasons and now I feel like it will also remind me of her, especially verse 3, God heals the brokenhearted and binds their wounds. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼Amen.
Thanks for watching! ❤️🙏🏻
My wife and I just watched this fascinating interview and found it so insightful! I especially liked Elaine's comment that early Christianity saw itself as "The Way", or "The Path". I hope you don't mind me sharing my own experience in life in searching for the Path. "What if?" is a wonderful way to open up to all the possibilities, and it also is the mother of all questions. I was not raised in a religious family, so my family was not a source of spiritual knowledge or fear, but I was curious....and interested as a teen and did join a wonderful church which didn't emphasize fear. But my first year of college I took world history and learned the stories of all the great world religions and "the Path" they provided, and the question inside of me was "What if I had been born in India at the time of Buddha?" Would I have followed that path, because it really seems attractive and insightful. What if I had been born in the right time and location for any of the religions, would those paths have attracted my heart? The answer was yes. My reasoning was, and is, that if God loves all humanity equally, then He will provide a "Path" for them to approach spirituality couched in words and teachings tailored to the culture and spiritual background of that era and location. Sort of like teachers in school tailor lessons to suit the age and maturity of the students. Each teacher knows that she/he is not the last teacher the kids will have, so the kids don't receive all the knowledge the teacher possesses. Our knowledge and learning accumulates over time and we may not remember what our first grade teacher taught us, but it was just as important as any other teacher later on. So there I was, calling myself a Christian but realizing that all of these other religions were equally valid as "The Way", at least to my understanding. I really felt alone spiritually, because I didn't know anybody else with these questions, or maybe people did have them but were afraid to say what they felt.
Then I came across a "Way" which included all the spiritual "Ways" mentioned above. The name of this Way is Baha'i, a name which you may not be familiar with. Baha'is believe in Christ and the Founders of all the great historical religions as being equally valid as "The Path", that this Path gradually becomes overgrown over time with the weeds of superstition and ignorance and needs to be renewed without the weeds. The Path also needs to be widened to accommodate more and broader understandings.
I resonate with your comment about feeling closer to God now even though you're not going to a church. In one sense, God is within us, not somewhere "out there" in the universe. That's my understanding of man being made in the image of God. It's not a physical thing but a spiritual thing. Christians look to Christ as being a perfect reflection of that spiritual reality we call God. He manifests the divine qualities like a perfect mirror reflects the light of the sun. We see the sun in the mirror, but the sun is actually 94 million miles from earth. That's the way I understand Jesus' statement "If you see me, you see the Father". The Baha'i view is that the Founders of World Religions could have made the same statement, and some did. Here's a quote from Baha'i scripture which addresses the idea of the presence of God within:
O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.
I just wanted to give you perhaps more questions! That's what a friend does. Questions are more important than answers, because without the questions, there can be no answers. As a last idea, the Baha'i Faith in my opinion is what Christ would have established had He been living in our age. Baha'u'llah, the Founder of this Faith, wrote over a hundred volumes Himself so that people wouldn't have to rely on hearsay; he abolished any form of clergy; He emphasized that all children must be educated, especially the girls; He put science and religion on equal footing, it's all about what's real; He proclaimed the oneness of humanity, we're all one family; He advised the nations of the world to unite to avoid war; He told us to rid ourselves of prejudices; He let us know what many of us suspect, that women and men are of equal worth and status, deserving the same opportunities in life. The name "Baha'u'llah" is Arabic for "The Glory of God", so it's a spiritual title like Christ is the spiritual title of Jesus.
I pray you and yours are doing OK five months since this comment. Thank you for sharing. To me, it seems like Jesus AKA Josh explained, to paraphrase: “I am the Tao and Sharira and Enlightenment.” I appreciate you and your wife’s earnest search. 🙏🙌✌️
@@benjaminbunnyglaser1984 Thanks for responding. We're doing well, and I hope you and yours are also doing well.
Jesus said He did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword. Uniting the nations sounds like a NWO One World Government effort. If someone does not like you because that are evil and destructive are we supposed to make peace w them and be friends? Conflict is good and peace w the world is not good. We all have characteristic traits that span all across a spectrum, except for the fact that we all have a void for Love, a connscience that gives us an awareness between right & wrong. We all have a sense of eternity, a sense of a spirit, a desire for freedom and a desire for justice. All of these traits that we all posssess must have been part of the design or would even have evolved for a reason, no different than if 6 or 7 of our physical traits are each present for a reason. They can not just be dismissed. Sin is wrong. Sin occurs anytime when we step out of our shoes and into Gods. How can one gain salvation by esoteric knowledge? what exactly are you being saved from? and how can the ultimate truth be a personal understanding or experience? Truth is not something that bends backwards or has no boundaries or extra space to fill in for everyones side of the story--its black & white.
Your're right that Jesus did not come to bring peace, but Baha'u'llah did. The U.S. is a model for what the world can become, with 50 semi-independent states united under one federal government. A federal judiciary allows problems between states to be resolved through the courts, and not on the battlefield. This system can, and will, be expanded to include the nations of the world resolving their problems through legal means rather than war.
Didn't Jesus teach us to love our enemy, to turn the other cheek? We may not want to be close to evil people, but we love them and help them become better.
Concerning our natural state, our natural tendencies, it's true that we are all born with the quality of self-centeredness, of aggressiveness, etc., but we don't remain as we were born if we learn self-control through good parenting and divine teachings. We mature into people who care for others. Cultures and societies also can mature from aggressive and warlike qualities to higher forms of civilization. Mature societies can recognize that all countries benefit from peaceful relationships based on justice. Every living thing changes from immature stages to mature stages, and cultures and civilizations are living things. We are designed to mature, to change. @@dav1djac0b
Really great video. Worth watching more than once. Thank you Elaine Pagels, and thank you What If Project.
Thank you! And thanks for watching!
I did email Elaine two years ago about meeting for tea since she lives so close to me! I'll try again. She's a gem. Great interview so crucial for faithful people. My takeaway is that people are afraid. Of so much and its unconscious. If we trust our relationship to hearing from our own insight, integrity, soul and the Holy Spirit we discern all at the foot of the cross. Truth is worked out over our lifetimes. And we have nothing to fear.
It's seems that most church leaders and fundamentalists don't want us to find God within us.
So true, looking to the church give the church all the control.
I don't want to throw away any of God or exchange it from man's made orthodoxy or canon, I just want to open my chest and brain with an invitation to Jesus and spirit thr
Maybe there is no god to find 😅
That would kill the cash flow
@@padajsiloinepravdo6299It is not you finding God. It is God finding you. 😎
Elaine is the kind of Christian who makes a person want to be a Christian and not wince when they hear the term. I love her insight and her spirit! Thanks for this podcast!
She's the greatest. Thanks for watching!
Very beautiful conversation between you two. Thank you both for your wonderful contributions.
Thank you, Robert - and thanks for listening!
What an outstanding interview with Elaine Pagels. I have been watching almost every video interview she's conducted. The ending notes of reconciling these new teachings with orthodoxy and current doctrine really helped enlighten the questions I had about doing just that. I feel there is so much more out there about the historical church and Christianity than we have today and she has done an outstanding job at shedding light on these topics in a way that doesn't attack the faith but compliments it and expands upon it.
What a beautiful conversation! I just became aware of Elaine Pagels yesterday and am so enamored with the information she has shared, her kindness and depth of knowledge. So intriguing!
Elaine Pagels! ❤ Thank you. You and Bart Ehrman were the first to open my eyes and question FREELY! What a journey. 😍
Amen, and thanks for watching!
Interesting, it further deconstructed my belief in the Bible and its trinity of God. I don’t know what I believe anymore.
@@KLmoxiethat’s a scary but ok place to be ❤️ glad you’re here with us, thanks for watching 🙏🏻
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast Thank you. This channel strengthens my 'free thinking' without me fearing that I'm going to hell if I die while cursing etc. But now I lost faith in faith. Maybe it's the religious trauma, but I can't believe I was one of those people who said "I'll pray for you" and other 'christianese' talk.
Thank you for replying and caring about your listeners. 💛
@@KLmoxie ahh I love to hear that you feel at home here. If you want more community I’ll add you to our Patreon Discord group, no need to sign up on Patreon. Just email me at whatifproject.net@gmail.com - lots of friends to make in the group! ❤️🙏🏻👏🏻
Great interview. Ms Pagels books helped me find the Twin of Jesus. Maybe I read too much into the Gospel of Thomas and Phillip, but it drove me to write a trilogy, after I became a twin. We are all twin spirits of the divine spirit. We need to draw that spirit out of the minutia. Thanks for listening. ron
Thanks Ronald, and thanks for listening!
What the front yard did you say? We need to stick to the Bible Genesis to Revelation!
I started down a spiritual journey about 8 months ago as I approached my 10th year of sobriety. It wasn’t until 3 months ago that I had decided to read, study, and comprehend the book of Genesis for the first time and as an adult. I wasn’t searching for anything, just wanted to read it for myself. The book of Genesis opened my eyes and made me question all of my long held beliefs. First off, I don’t know the God of the Old Testament as I thought I did. And as far as all of the “righteous”people in Genesis, I didn’t like any of them. They all seemed slimy to me. Except Joseph that is, I was alright with him. It’s scary but quite amazing at the same time. I have never felt closer to God as I do on this journey.
Love this, thanks for sharing - glad to be on the journey with you!
The people in Genisis, they all seemed slimy... ???
I hope this project continues for a while. These interviews have been so informative.
Thanks I appreciate that! We are in our 3rd full year of the show. Not many videos from the first 2 years, most are audio because I had some video issues when recording. You can find all the other episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. Right how we’re replaying some old episodes and new episodes are starting up in January, they’ll be video and audio. Thanks for watching!
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast If you can upload the podcasts to UA-cam that would increase your content and it's great content, Glen!
@@MichaelYoder1961 thanks!
The first 2 1/2 years I had bad wifi and so I did very little video with the podcasts, it was recorded all audio.
BUT now I’m able to do video because we made a few changes to our internet! I’ll be releasing new episodes in January and so I’ll be posting the videos on UA-cam 👍🏻👍🏻
I appreciate the encouragement!
Elaine is such a gift! Like Dr. Bart, she makes things easy to understand with a wealth of knowledge and a sense of humour. Thanks! Get her back to talk about Revelation...💞
Thank you! One of my favorite people that I’ve had the honor of speaking with. I really want to get her back on in 2022, fingers crossed! Revelation would be a great topic. And Bart is finishing a book on Revelation too … getting them both on at once would be a dream 😍
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast
That would be marvelous and something I don't want to miss.
Very nice interview. Very personal.
Im letting out a big sigh of relief here. Thank you!
Awakening.🤗
Thanks for watching! ❤️🙏🏻
Thank you for introducing me to Elaine Pagels! Her work has given me so much to think about, and is helping me reconstruct my faith .
Thanks for the interview. May God bless you with happiness
Thanks and thanks for listening!
Thank you both so very much for sharing this. It was excellent!❤🙏
I really loved the conversation. Also the sensitive and tactful "sures" and "yeahs" from the interviewer. A plea for a more open-minded, Jesus centered spiritual approach and less dogmas. More trust in growing and developing. Thx!❤
Thanks Randy! I try to be a human when I talk to my guests like I’d be if we were out for coffee, and not a robot. I appreciate the feedback and am glad you found the convo helpful! ✌🏻&❤️
I love her so much.
I had a head on encounter with my Maker Jesus in my living room 18 years ago then I started going to church. Bad mistake. I have been deconstructing the last 3 years from man made religion or the devil was trying to do to me. When I read the gospel of Thomas I cry because it’s so deep as we see God in our eyes!
The GOSPEL OF THOMAS HAS NOT BEEN VALIDATED:
WHO VALIDATED IT ?
@@fritula6200 Just remember that the Catholic Church put together the Bible and it has some mystical undertones if you dig for them as a treasure. Jesus came to give us Himself so that we would become Him on this earth. It’s not hard to do if you humble yourself as a little child and die to yourself. You’re the problem.
John lamb Lash has an excellent book about Gnosticism :titled “Not In His Image” which totally destroys the Salvationist,Redeemer God and explains things that in my opinion make way more sense. A very good read.✌🏼
Thanks I’ll check it out!
Thank you for this interview! You're bringing insight into many people's lives.
Thanks so much, and thanks for watching!
I envy Elaine Pagels. All this came to late for me. Once I'd lost faith I was unable to go back. I still have an interest but I don't have that spirituality anymore.
The sunny side of it is that I don't have severe depression anymore either. I'm grounded. I might take a look on Spotify to check out your earlier stuff.
I'm happy to hear that the severe depression has cleared up! I am grateful for discovering this early in my life. I turn 40 next month and have a bachelors degree and 2 graduate degrees from an Evangelical school. I was at my wits end for a bit and then I opened the floodgates to the questions and am grateful to have found people like Pagels, Ehrman, and others who have really cut the leash off of me and made me feel like it's OK to just be me.
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast
If we could all do that, have access to information and be free to ask and walk our own paths, I don't know what good could come of it but I believe a whole lot!
Thank you. I can relate so deeply with your post.
I lost my faith and can’t go back, but I don’t feel that fear, control, or deep depression anymore. My religious trauma was from childhood indoctrination and lasted into my early 30s.
A very kind lady. Would like so much to learn of her thoughts on reincarnation.
My thanks.
She’s amazing, thanks for listening ❤️
Very nice. Thanks for having recorded this conversation
Thanks, and thanks for listening!
The Islamic mystical tradition she referred to is probably sufism (sunni is not considered mystical)
Nice interview, Elaine is always interesting to listen to!
Good to know thanks! And thank you, she was a joy to talk to. Hoping to have her on again soon. ✌🏻
@timnray99 thanks!
@timnray99 I've also read somewhere that yogis in India used to read Rumi back in the 13th or 14th century, so they very likely had an understanding
Thank you both. Matthew 20:16 Jesus states The last shall be first and the first last. Esoteric teachings are not for everyone but if it brings one closer to spiritual understanding of Jesus and the one he calls his father so be it. I remind myself that Jesus himself was considered a heretic by certain church leaders at the time. Heresy means choice. Thanks for opening up the idea of choice which involves risk and rewards. It may well be the rewards outweigh the risks when reviewing the Gospel Of Thomas ❤
Thanks for sharing and watching ✌🏻
Great interview! I learned a lot!
Thanks for watching! 🙏🏻
Excellent content my friend. Thank you for doing the work. I think this is a really important discussion to have.
Thank you and thanks for listening!
I am Gnostic. I hope you will read the forthcoming e books The Truth about the Devil and The Man with Ten Horns
I would like to see a conversation between Dr. Pagels and the host of the Religion for Breakfast utube channel. He is a scholar in his own way.
lol thanks
Elaine, I knew William James was Henry's bro and a psychologist, but not about his "spiritual crisis". To me that gives him and his work a deal more authority. (Thanks)
What a great interview
Thanks for watching! As an FYI, a new episode with Elaine will be dropping on Sunday night, we go deep into her book 'Why Religion?" and talk about grief and loss.
luv y'all, wish u all great peace
Mrs Pagels so very right,I guess Fikino,Pico,Bruno should listen these wisdom speech first,... My compliments ,Her words are illuminating the hearths
A great balance to Dr Pagel’s books are the works of GK Chesterton - especially his book “Orthodoxy “
Jesus is the only way. The Holy Spirit gives us discernment.
Thanks for sharing, again, and continuing to help the algorithm favor the video so more people see it 🥳
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast Don't fret. Christ has won. No one true in Him will go away. Satan's purpose always fails. Everything works together for the good of those who love God, and God uses what is evil to bring about what is good.
I would have so enjoyed being a research assistant to Ms. Pagels during her studies. Alas, I'm so very unqualified. So I must settle for being a layman fan.
She's so good, thanks for listening!
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I did read the Gnostic Gospels years ago. Wish I owned the book, but I have so many as it is.
I wanna go to a BBQ with Pagels, Bart Ehrman, David Brakke, Amy-Jill Levine, Karen Armstrong, and Dale Martin.
16:40 The primary Islamic esoteric tradition is Sufism. There's also the Subud Brotherhood, which originated in Indonesia, and appears to have been influenced by Hinduism. But that may be because all esoteric religions contain the same universal truths.
You are saved by knowledge and mastery of knowledge, as Jesus taught.
Doesn't really address the issue of why it is taking so long to come back, but I do love the sentiment and might start attending local religious practices for love and social interaction....would I be accepted?
ever seeking but never finding
Catholic school taught kids as young as 6 they must be willing to die for the faith rather than deny it if ever put in the position of having to choose. I refer to mid 1960 s
I came across this channel looking for Elaine Pagels and the gnostic gospels. I think you should have informed the audience about Ms. Pagels academic credentials. Not only her books. That will help appreciate more the information. I think.
Pagel's approach to religious topics is refreshing when compared with desperate evangelizing greedy apologists. Intellect vs agendas. Would Elaine / believers remain faithful if eternal life were not promised? Even the gnostics, today and ancient, fear death, a driving force of most religions.
The thought of eternal life makes me nauseous. I just want to RIP.
The fact they none of the text include information of dinosaurs makes me think religion was man made based on politics, land ownership, and power.
Listening to this makes one really wonder what is real and what's been accepted as real and brainwashed into our minds since childhood. We won't know until we pass.
I think Constantine was more of a politician than a Christian. I'm not to sure about his "vision" in which Jesus said "support me and you will kick ass on the battlefield" either.
What one does methodologically on this one is go on to understand why is it that certain ecumenical synods accepted the Bible only in this current form. In other words, they search the archives for this *second hand info.*
I am sure i went from hating mr paige to totally loving and understanding and admiring elaine paige. Just a patient human being. ❤not a karen not disrespectful to anyone even me a born again Christian. All kinds of christians out there.
In my personal life i always hated christians and christianity an love nature medicines and shrooms...
Then through shrooms jesus cme to my life and said to be the on of God in th earth so we could undertand him.while here.
Now the bible jesus and the church jesus is Not 🚫 my jesus that saves me from the dark beings and takes me home 🏡 forever. Even now.
Looks like religious leaders such as priests invented evolution and big bang theory
Walker Elizabeth Garcia Lisa Rodriguez Mary
You would think that if there really is a personal God who 1) loved us 2) is powerful enough to say make the universe...
That out of compassion such a being would present Itself in a manner that wouldn't be so obscure and difficult to find. Wouldn't such a God at least be obvious enough to reveal itself in a consistent way, thus removing all these competiting variations?
Or is that a heretic's question?
Options: 1) no such God exists 2) God exists, but but isn't concerned about our knowledge of it. 3) God exists and wants us to know it correctly, but dosen't have the power 4) shut up and buy into someone else's orthodoxy. God wants you to get it second hand
The last option is interesting because it's the one I bet that a lot of comments are going espouse. "God did love you... enough to write a holy book." Great. You have exactly the same idea that Muslims, Jews and Mormons believe. And what am I supposed to do with my knowledge about how many errors: scientific, technical, historical, moral, accidental, intentional etc... study of those books reveals?
I can see that, and honor that question - it’s a good one! Thanks for sharing.
For me, I enjoy the mystery of it all and I’m not sure God cares where we land in terms of our faith or beliefs but is most concerned that the faith and beliefs lead us to be truer versions of ourselves and ultimately more loving, compassionate, etc.
That sort of approach allows me to feel very open to exploring various faiths and beliefs and ideas.
Flawed text indicates a flawed god. Of what use is any flawed god?
This dilemma was the dilemma of many early Christians.
But I will offer my personal perspective. God is a reflection of the totality of man. Even if Gnostics tried to envision a transcendent God, one that transcends both Good and Evil then he will manifest as both Good and Evil. Even if you envision a God that is totally Good, then you have a God unaware of Evil.
So what we are dealing with is how human beings can over come evil, what is evil for themselves and others.
For me one of the most profound responses to this problem was Hannah Arendt in her Banality of Evil where she said it is never enough to proclaim or believe that you are moral and Good, you actually have to work at it, and address these difficult questions. Arendt pointed out that Eichmann actually proclaimed a Kantian morality but obviously did not follow that morality at all, he was concerned with social approval.
Arendt’s observation is certainly one addressed in the Gospels as well. But it’s not enough to raise the Gospel up in an idolatrous way.
If how to “overcome evil” is a serious and ultimate concern of yours then take the issue seriously. If you find ways of doing that through the Bible great, if you find it elsewhere great.
But to over come evil culturally we have to do it both in ourselves, and have good faith discussions in regards to it with each other.
Using a religion to reinforce tribalism is a horrendous strategy of overcoming evil.
Was Judas Thomas a double?
There are many scholars that wrote books that state Jesus did not exist in history. I did my research and found that to be true. I still like alot of the things she wrote.
Elaine is correct in that very few reputable scholars would make such a claim.
What is her email I would love to speak to her about my own revelations I've had in last few months.. she would understand
I believe whe she was referencing mystical tradition in Islam I believe she meant Sufism and not the Shia tradition.
Thank you WIP and always love toward Dr. Pagels. 1. Seek and you shall find [2. When you find you’ll be disturbed. 3. After you’re disturbed? You’ll marvel. 4. After you marvel you’ll reign over all]. 🕎✡️✝️🛐🐪🪡🗝🪜⚰️☸️🔄♋️☯️☮️🧿🪬💚🙏✌️♾
She isn't so close to getting free of Christianity. I understand that it is possible to have so called mystical experiences and blend that in with what ever their background in youth was . At some point you get too invested to change and that is fine , probably where most of us are doing on many levels. I spent time having unusual experiences, exploring eastern philosophy etc. then just stopped. Other things took over.
Anyone who thinks old testament is to learn like psalms and hve it inur heart ❤️ u have ben deceived ny satan. This is the end times as much as i love this lady ... Marj of the beast is 2030 and jesus cannot come until then ....
I love Elaine ....a real woman
What got the Gnostics killed was they claimed the God of the Old Testament was evil.
As it turns out it's only the God in the Masoretic text that is evil.
The Samaritan Pentateuch is the real Old Testament and has Yehowah instead of Yahweh.
In my humble and uneducated opinion, gods must have specific names for specific ideals of them. Is praying to Yehowah the same as YHWH, or Yahweh? Elohim, El, El Elyon? Baal, Ahura Mazda, Shaitan, Satan? It's entirely and humorously possible that if you misaddress your prayers while praying to the wrong deity, such prayers end up in the dead prayer office and returned to sender as undeliverable.
I prefer the Kumran stuff like the Book of Enoch where Paul got all his supernatural thoughts--outright copied from the text
Sufi how she didnt know that!
Not everyone can remember everything all the time. I forget a lot of things when recording that some would think is obvious.
What is a false prophet if not a self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything can't test this moment play the man of understanding not even close
See The Gnostic Gospels, by Elaine Pagels. From the Introduction …
… Orthodox Jews and Christians insist that a chasm separates humanity from its creator: God is wholly other. But some of the gnostics who wrote these gospels contradict this: self-knowledge is knowledge of God; the self and the divine are identical.
Second, the "living Jesus" of these texts speaks of illusion and enlightenment, not of sin and repentance, like the Jesus of the New Testament. Instead of coming to save us from sin, he comes as a guide who opens access to spiritual understanding.
But when the disciple attains enlightenment, Jesus no longer serves as his spiritual master: the two have become equal-even identical.
Third, orthodox Christians believe that Jesus is Lord and Son of God in a unique way: he remains forever distinct from the rest of humanity whom he came to save. Yet the gnostic Gospel of Thomas relates that as soon as Thomas recognizes him, Jesus says to Thomas that they have both received their being from the same source:
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become drunk from the bubbling stream which I have measured out.
... He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."
There's no middle man required when connecting with God.
(That's why the Gospel of Thomas didn't make the biblical edit.)
Through plants u can understand Jesus came.for the lost soul... Clones.
Of course St Peter was a bit dumb! That's why he was named after a rock!!! 🤨
Game age over best know it
A dabbling even with Plato explains christianity. Or read The Immortality Key.
Jesus the psychiatrist is a wonderful counsellor, mighty God perhaps.
Iesous christos (jesus christ) is greek for healer anointed.
2:45 Oops, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima used U235, the Nagasaki bomb employed plutonium.
In my humble and uneducated opinion, gods must have specific names for specific ideals of them. Is praying to Yehowah the same as YHWH, or Yahweh? Elohim, El, El Elyon? Baal, Ahura Mazda, Shaitan, Satan? It's entirely and humorously possible that if you misaddress your prayers while praying to the wrong deity, such prayers end up in the dead prayer office and returned to sender as undeliverable.
The Catholic Church has hidden the Keys to the Kingdom of God.
The basic ideas in the Gospel of Thomas is explained by Carl Jung.
What Carl Jung prescribed was knowing your shadow, knowing the rejected aspects of yourself that you project onto others.
Jesus gives the same advise in Matthew 7 of remove the beam in your own eye. It is also in Thomas:
(26) Jesus said, "You (sing.) see the speck in your sibling's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye. When you expel the beam from your own eye then you will be able to see to expel the speck from the eye of your sibling."
Jung said upon doing shadow reclaiming, both what we project on men and women a person would eventually have a spontaneous experience confrontation with the unconscious in the form of a Self and one would realize that they are Adam Kadmon, the anthropos before Adam was divided into male and female.
But Jung also warned about this experience as well, as a time of possibility of inflation.
Are all people eligible for this realization? Not everyone cares. Not everyone is concerned. Not everyone is troubled by their contradictions. And so what do you do in these cases?
The institution of private admissions of sin of confessions seems to have at least addressed this problem in a ritualistic way in the Catholic Church since the 11th century.
There will never be a perfect institutional church. But there can be rituals that help people gain greater awareness.
Take a shot every time the host says "yeah"...
“Yeah.”
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast Mmm, mm-hmm. 😋
@@kayhollings1777 Elaine blew my mind, left me speechless in a lot of ways. Thanks for watching ✌🏻
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast She is really interesting! And I am only having a joke with you, I hope you got that, just couldn't resist. Old party game and it would have been perfect lol. I enjoyed the interview though, thanks for sharing.
Hahaha nah I got you. Sometimes a guest comes and truly leaves me speechless like I’m trying to digest what they just said and formulate my next thought, Elaine is one of those people lol. I just recorded with her about Revelation, that episode will drop next month sometime. I appreciate you, thanks again for dropping by! 🙏🏻
She is wrong about a Buddhisims and hindu Dharma .. tantra is central to our practice and is not juat esoteric.. tantra actually means technology. It was the European colonization ( our continued mental abrahamization) that demonized the tantra practice. A lot of our holidays and the practice is tantra but peope aren't always aware because it is everyday practice.
The way you guys are putting things, the message in the gnostic gospels is closer to the false promise the devil made to Adam and Eve, than to the teaching of Jesus and the prophets. I Mean, The general understanding of the Prophets, and Jesus' teachings, is that the chosen people of God ,and people in general are fallen and in need of a savour. Whears the promise of the devil is: " you are Gods" and Your God is hiding things so you don't evolve".Reality shows humans need a saviour and people in general, believe that is something is deeply felt , then it's true, and thud good. Well, that's the reason why many poweful people have committed atricities,talk about gender identity)
In regards to the discerning of spirits, the origing of a spirit, has nothing to do with how one feels, but the actions they perform, namely by "their fruits"
7:35
I apologize but it is utterly illogical what Mrs Pagels draws from Mark 4. The „secrets“ in Mark are recorded in Mark. It‘s Jesus‘ clarification of the public parables. Read yourselves:
„Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he was teaching them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow….
…And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables…
…With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it. He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.“
Mark 4:1-3, 10-13, 33-34
Death ?? There is reincarnation
We never die but if u are sent back to earth ur in prison .... Not for me
Funny thing about Tertullian that he finished his life as a complete heretic 😊
If you don't want to deconstruct then don't read the gnostic gospels. You can't take the red pill and stay in the matrix.
She is leaving some stuff out. 🙈🙊🙉
THe early CHRISTIANS were Catholic:
The slaughter of Christians Catholics began in the Roman Amphitheatres:
2 Saints..
For their unwillingness to give ip their Faith , all were sent to the public games in the amphitheater.
There Saint Perpetua and Saint Felicity were beheaded, and the others killed by beasts.
Saint Perpetua had given birth in jail: and breastfeed her baby, before walking out to die.
They are Saints because they chose Jesus Christ and not themselves:
Read about them:
What?
Elaine you are great, but the guy saying “yeah yeah” is annoying.
lol thanks for the feedback Amanda.
GNOSTIC GOSPELS AREN'T THE TRUTH:
WHICH " AUTHORITY " ?? VALIDATED THEM: ??
THEY ARE NOT THE WORD OF GOD:
I ASK YOU TO DISCERN :
I did discern lol, thanks for sharing.
You clueless about what protects freedom and justice impossible to be we the people and not understand how the truth protects freedom and Injust protects the just
Man this woman carries on with so much nonsense about the gnostic gospels, because the very early church leaders regarded them as false. They are later compositions well removed in their writing period from the time of Christ. They had no "apostolic authority", Theological scholars of any credibility have discredited these books or scrolls for good reasons . The 4 gospels of the New Testament did have this authority. The gospel of Thomas regarded as the earliest of the many so-called gnostic scrolls was written in the second century AD. Crap man, the list goes on and on about the fact that these writings were frauds and so far removed in time from the events of the New Testament and the life and time of Christ. Dan Brown in his book "the Da Vinci Code" made a fortune on the same lie, being that these scrolls contain hidden truths about Jesus, In fact he says or implies Jesus was married, which was pretty much the thrust of his whole book. Brown then makes the ridiculous statement that these were authentic texts written by the apostles. This is completely and utterly historically inaccurate. For anybody unfamiliar with early Church history, people like this woman here and Dan Brown make quite a name for themselves and a good deal of money, because people believe them. Please everyone go and do your own research. Furthermore, Constantine never really became a Christian. He certainly used early Christianity as a political expedient for himself, Constantine believed in a Sun God as deity . His religion was known as "Sol Invictus". Constantine was essentially a worshipper of a pagan religion. Christianity of course went on to become the official religion of the Roman Empire and Constantine saw it coming. Even Rome itself could no longer persecute and ignore the monolithic number of followers of Jesus Christ and the religion that bore his name. The discreditors of the person of Jesus Christ have been with us for centuries. None have succeeded in tearing down his name, the person he was nor the Holy Scriptures that are the true testimony of who he was and why he came.
Lol it doesn't sound like you've done much research. Which books outside of the ones that tell you what you want to hear have you actually read?
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I am not a theologian I am a historian. Elaine Pagels reputation as a media scholar is undeserved. She has been critiqued by many professors and is regarded as a non-academic who is more of novelist than anything else. Yes, she has qualifications, but she is nowhere nearly qualified for the work she is engaged in.
Professor Paul Mankowski an absolutely brilliant scholar from the Pontifical Institute, is one of the foremost experts on Christian Literature and Textual Criticism, among other things. His credential or degrees are as long as your arm my friend.
Mankowski regards Pagels as an academic fraud or possibly even a heretic. I suggest you go and research this professor and see what he has to say, be prepared for a long read.
I must add by the way, and I'm sorry to have say this, but your reply was rather inane.
@@andrewmiller4885 you still didn't answer the question - what have you read about the topic of the Gnostic texts outside of the readings that tell you what you want to hear? My reply was directed at your own "inane" comment that the texts are "frauds". 1 Timothy is a "fraud" as well - it wasn't written by Paul. Do you still read it? Value it? How about the Gospels? We don't know who wrote them, but do know that pieces were added to them over the years by scribes - do you still read them? Value them? Even though they are (in a sense) "frauds"? Whatever the case may be, I don't see any of these texts (Canonical or non) having the purpose of being historical records of the happenings of Jesus' times and life, but stories written to encourage people as they followed in the Way of Christ. That "Way" was not as narrow as Orthodoxy has led us to believe. As a historian, I'm sure you're aware that the earliest centuries were diverse and wide and filled with many different understandings of Jesus that were squashed by people in power. The Gnostic texts shine light on that diversity of belief and I think that's a valuable thing to consider when trying to follow Jesus all these years later. Not everyone sees it that way and that's quite alright with me. ✌🏻
@andrewmiller4885 I didn’t know you were there, that’s incredible! 🙄
No one knows “the truth.” The ONLY reason nations, especially the western world has not disputed the christian religion is because it has been forced by colonialism. People were killed if they did not convert and that fear and trauma was passed down. It’s only now that people are becoming less afraid to step outside of what has been forced.
Christianity is a fear based religion. Just as Zoroastrianism and many other religions died out and animals become extinct, so will Christianity and other religions, more animals, and then the future population will have something else. If there were no Spanish Inquisition and Christopher Columbus colonization, the people in the Caribbean and North & South Americas would have remained in their ways and cultures, belief systems, and continued living without ever knowing.
The King James Version was edited and translated by a colonialist. It was the rewritten and translated after that etc. He also promoted the burning and hatred of women using herbs and persecuted innocent girls and women.
It is a tool.
Once out of the cognitive dissonance of religion, you can’t unsee it.
Satan owns ur bible. U benlied to and God will not punish us for been lied to by our church leaders.
This is all fringe nonsense.
lol thanks Jim ✌🏻
Liars guess you know deceiving self exactly unknown void in know deceiving self and others Injust self and others unknown to even self
What? 🤷🏻♂️
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I see in God's given understanding see what I mean is seeing in God's given understanding
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast why any think they known to the true virgin mother creator and won't taste death ? What could make any of you think you shown what no eye has seen heard what no ears ever heard given what no human has ever been given ?
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast what you guess you figured it out self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything unknown to even self divided became two the day you one you became two . Play its you seen anything heard anything shown nothing heard nothing unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything all could proclaim and best be done playing games is law if not proven without a doublt three times over before he was born three times three times over out womb and in man born known before he was born proclaimed three times over before he was born known to the true virgin mother creator walked the golden Path seen beginnings from ends first became last last first seen beginnings from ends returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in one many out womb and in man born and five stand as one . Is no debate or game best know play I figured it out hell no I seem watched heard given what no human has ever been given the true and just golden Path cause and effect given Amnesty from law won't taste death out womb and in man born again in life is Christ born 18.1.24 judgement multiply once see perfect harmony in balance with all in laws above and beyond Natures and God's see to shining sea canon to canon in-laws Corp and found the body became a Corps Michael my God given name and God's Army will stand real soon international trade law international stamp treaty Switzerland international postal union the Switzerland international postal union returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in one whole in one means whole in one in Greek two became one three returned in one whole in one whole in one whole in oneany out womb and in man born the living untouchable living book was in me before I was born Jeremy
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast best be done playing the hope for the man of understanding question all trust none many false prophets says exactly how to test this moment best know it and it's not you if it's me how guessed you anything besides self proclaimed figured it out fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly unknown void in know deceiving even self unknown to even self divided became two the day you one you became two.5 true .5 just make two into one and I AM there . Is no tell me I just saying what it says and it's my twin who the hell you pretending to be
Deaf when spoke plain
Eh?
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I am the hope for the man of understanding see is I am the untouchable living book twin was in me before I was born a Trinity first and last beginning and end one and 99 born 100 add move right repeat return to one 1.24.75
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast the man Flys without wings choosen before I was born the man of steel Flys without wings born next to two sleeping giants and a bottomless pit on international inland lake in the purple and gold state two became one in ten thousand three returned in one whole in one whole in one many M1911 Michael my God given name and given God's given understanding told to tell many Mary became a man squashed seeds head of snake eating tail returned a child is without doubt God must see eyes just true beauty Path be known to the
@WhatIfProjectPodcast out womb in 7months in the golden known age of Aquarius born 1.24.75 add move right repeat return to one Jeremy Michael Middle name nicknamed moezer at 3 speech impediment shortened to moe out womb next to two sleeping giants and a bottomless pit on international inland lake in the purple and gold state five stand as one M1911 Michael my God given name
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast I no Socrates he tasted death trying to warn people
What the hell makes you think you hear the gospel of Thomas what a outcast lie
None of your comments make any sense to me 🤷🏻♂️
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast because it's the truth not figured it out self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets deaf ears figured it out deceiving self exactly guessing guessing you understand pretend to be known fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand . Question none pretend to understand guess you know void in know unknown swine that direction
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast and I draw it out while explaining it Plato's divided line
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast how any of you pretend to see self as the forth in heaven even be your first question
@@WhatIfProjectPodcast how hear at the end of the age question none all pretend to understand deceiving self exactly self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything
read my green fire tommy & ruthie's blues @amazon 🌈🦉😉