If you like learning about daily life in the past, our How They Did It series will be just for you: ua-cam.com/play/PLkOo_Hy3liEKUONCNxFP1q-sLmTqOisJZ.html
@invicta I wish I could remember the details at this exact moment, but there is an ancient identity theft are told about. One of the Kings of the Middle East during antiquity (I can't remember if it was an Assyrian, Babylonian, or Persian king) had a younger brother. Younger brother was, according to the records, attempted to rebel and take the crown with support from Egypt. According to some a the time, however, it was actually an imposter who had murdered the king's brother.
They were. A great folly in man is an erroneous assumption that a lack of technological sophistication means a lack of intellectual sophistication, when in many ways, it's the exact opposite. Often technological sophistication means we forget how to do basic tasks. Remembering people's phone numbers for example, used to be quite common even a decade ago, but cell phones have meant that we don't have to remember them anymore, so we don't.
@@GoogleUserOne I think they’re probably all just as smart but are limited by the society they’re in. Their solutions to their problems are probably just as elegant as the romans but limited by their culture and technology.
I mean. Show up in Rome with the blue print of a steam engine, and not only will they definitely build it, I guarantee they'll figure out *how* it works in no time.
As someone who works with records to prove lineage for inheritance matters it's both hilarious and shoking how differently this is handled to this day. Some countries keep massive rolls and can tell you exactly who is whose son, whose brother and whose father, where and where they were born and when and where they died whereas other countries are like "Yeah, that guy once got a drivers license in 1969, so he probably existed."...
In some families in Japan & other parts of Asia people can trace their lineage to the times of Christ. In America it's hard to track your ancestry more than a century or two.
In most european countries it might be hard to access the records, but the church kept track of every birth + parents for example. Unless your family purposefully tried to obscure their identity or you had some bastards, you probably can track up to the middle ages. My father researched for fun some years ago and he found the full family line to the 17th century
@@michaelweston409 for most US-Americans alive today, "one or two centuries ago" is when their ancestors immigrated (OK, maybe three). I would think that's at least a point where you'll easily lose track of many people's histories. Especially those who might have been inclined to modify their information a bit when, entering the US, they were asked who they are and where they came from. It also happens a lot that their names are modified to match the local customs. How are you _reliably_ gonna track "John Smith, port of emigration: Hamburg, Germany" to a particular "Johannes Schmitt from Oberasbach, Middle Franconia, Bavaria", especially consiering there are also tons of "Johann Schmidt", "Hannes Schmied" or "Schmitz" etc. 😬 My own family's name couldn't be spelled in German alphabet, so when they immigrated in Danzig 300 years ago the official just wrote down a close transcription. Apparently that official was filling in for someone else and no other families got assigned the same spelling, hence I know every single person coming up on google as a distant cousin at least 😆 Then there's the branch originating from a great-uncle who moved to the US and got another spelling change when _that_ official saw their 'ä' 😁
Another related point is how this related to art. Hellenistic art was idealized, everyone wanted to be made to look like Heracles or Apollo. But Roman art was meant to be hyper realistic. That way, if a Consul showed up in one of the Provinces, everyone would know who he was. Later on, the same was applied to imperial minted coins. Roman soldiers were supposed to be able to recognize the Emperor from the coins they were paid with.
And what happened to the coins made in previous emperor's period, when a new emperor crowned? Were they re-minted just to change the face? If so who would pay for the work?
Some enterprising Swedish and Danish soldiers up until the 1700's would switch sides according to who's side was winning. The thing is, their language was so similar, that there was no good way of knowing, so they'd throw various tests at each other, such as a particular nursery rhyme which they _knew_ was slightly different on the other side.
Totally have wondered about this for years. Especially when the apostle Paul told the Romans that he was a citizen when they arrested him. And the Roman authorities were afraid that they had wrongly arrested and planned on legally punishing a citizen . Of which they would’ve been legally liable themselves. I was always like, how is that proven?
Speaking Latin with the right kind of accent would help. In the case of Auxiliary troops that served with the Roman military and received citizenship at the end of their service they'd also receive a certificate.
They also wernt circumcised. Roman soldiers were "often" circumcised when dishonorably banished from the legions for serious offences that didnt quite reach death level. They were then unable to prove roman heritage. There are cases of this from massada in the Jewish uprisings and it was considered a fairly normal punishment...
In the case of Carthage, one citizen parent makes sense. It was a seafaring trading culture. You can easily see how someone could ship out from Tyre and pick up a wife in a place like Miletus or Alexandria.
Sure, but it does basically guarantee you'll have near-universal citizenship amongst non-foreigners within a century or two, especially if that citizenship can pass through women as well. If a citizen has two surviving kids with a non-citizen, who each have two surviving kids, who each have two surviving kids, who each have two kids, you may be looking at 25ish living citizens 'generated' from 1 ancestral citizen after a century (that is crude math, but illustrates the tendency). A lot would depend on how endogamous the citizen population was.
@Chris G Funny enough, yes. In many Chinese action stories (and subsequent movies) a common plot is that either some corrupt official or rebel stole the imperial seal. And that was because, in an empire whose bureaucracy was as complex as China's the seal was the placeholder and verifier of imperial power behind the various edicts and official positions. Hence why the taking of the seal was tantamount to taking the imperial throne.
Yeah . . . about that. In the early part of China's 3 Kingdoms period, one of the warlords got a hold of the Imperial seal and thought the same, insisting that he was now the Emperor because he had the seal. This got all the other warlords to turn on him and utterly destroy him, because just because you have a seal does not mean you have the mandate from heaven.
At least in Republican times, Roman equites wore jus annuli aurei- gold seal rings. Many chose to wear iron instead, but people from a certain class were permitted to wear seal rings to identify who they were and where they stood in society. It was these jus annuli aurei that Hannibal dumped in front of the oligarchs of Carthage following his victories at Trasimene, Trebia, and Cannae to show just how deeply he cut down the Romans and their upper class. Loved the video!
@@geordiejones5618 They lacked siege craft to assault the larger well fortified cities. Rome had a much larger population than Carthage and they raised another army and sent it to Africa to attack Carthage directly. The Romans began wide spread carnage and moved to threaten the capitol city of Carthage. This forced the Carthaginians to recall Hannibal and his army back to protect the capitol. Hannibal and the Carthaginians were defeated and this brought an end to the 2nd Punic War.
@@PilgrimBangs you're right. I think a lot of people underestimate the difficulties in besieging a city. You need to spread out your army over many miles to cut the city off from outside aid but in doing so you risk parts of your army being cut off and defeated in detail. You need to arrange food, fodder and camps with all associated issues like water and sanitation for ten of thousands of men. There's a letter from a French general to his King (Louis the 14th by memory) that was in the book Supplying War, in which the general informs the King that conducting a siege against a particular city would be impossible due to the city having been besieged the previous year and as such no local fodder would be available for the army to feed its horses. The nature of Hannibal's army, being in large part mercenary would greatly add to the difficulty as well as being cut off from help from home. For some amateur back of the envelope calculation involving me trying to remember figures (sorry I don't have the sources on me atm). It was roughly 2 pounds of food per day per man and 20 pounds of fodder per horse. Even if we say they are only eating half because they're just sitting around most of the time, Hannibal's army was roughly 45,000 strong after the battle of Cannae. Say it was 40,000 with 32,000 infantry and 8,000 cavalry. That army would still require 120,000 pounds of food and fodder a day to keep feed.
An example of ancient roman identity theft might explain reports of people seeing emperor nero looking quite well considering he'd committed suicide months prior.
"Lucius, has anyone ever told you that you look just like Nero?" "Yeah, I get that all the time. Kind of annoying, although I've picked up a lot of hot girls in bars with it."
@@seanabbott798 Ancient VPN lmao "Bypass the Empire's censorship with our message courier service, we deliver through the back road away from Imperial checkpoints"
I've seen an interesting Renaissance example. The Medici bank had lots of offices transferring lots of money all over Europe, far outside the range where any in-person verification was possible. Apparently, one of their main security tools was handwriting - any time a new banker started, they'd provide a sample of their writing to each other branch, which was kept on file to compare transactions against. (I assume they also used seals etc. as described in the video, but it's been a while since I read that book, so I can't give any details with certainty.)
@@Crosshill I suppose that is why hand-written signatures remain a thing to this day. Example: Even though Paul appears to use a secretary on many occasions Romans 16:22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord. He himself would write the greeting in his own handwriting. 2 Thessalonians 3:17 I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write. If we had the autographs we would expect to see various handwritings for the body of the letters, but a single style for the greetings.
Rene Descartes once wrote: "Let whoever can do so deceive me, he will never bring it about that I am nothing, so long as I continue to think I am something"
@@nebsam7137 okay bro here it is : You know that You are moving when the distance between You and some particle changes. But suppose You are adrift in a void with no atoms or even light. no direction,no information,nothing. so you observe nothing. but you still observe your own thoughts. You know that YOUR MIND is real and under only Your control. Now I can put You to sleep,give You fake memories and tea stains on your shirt etc to make You think You drank tea in the past. But You did not. So You cannot be sure that Anything actually happened as You remember it except for Your consciousness. You think THEREFORE You are.
no joke, we learn about ancient rome a total of three times in three classes, history, latin and antiquity, and i still feel like i had to relearn everything cause it seems to leave out everything actually significant and, to use the words i was taught in history class, seems to have a biased tendency and should be properly evaluated as a source yeah
Thanks for providing this. I'm putting together a DnD campaign and this fit in perfectly with some of the questions I had about forgery, theft and identity - a lot of great details and jumping-off points to make the game more interesting!
@@InvictaHistory I'm still a couple months away from it being exposed to the players, so it's planning stages. The short version is the party will be working for a low-key crime lord whose portfolio includes forgery - especially important because taking part in politics in the city requires citizenship (single parent-citizen, and must reside in the city), plus more benefits (which I learned from this video, so again, kudos and thanks!). None of the party will be citizens, and I think I'll find something where they need to have their identities forged because they need to be citizens. I'm currently considering doing some kind of personal seal for citizens and finding a way to work that in to the plot, along with a whole Skull Island vibe that they will eventually explore. (wanders off to go brainstorm more...) Anyway, seriously love the videos. Thank you so much for the work you do. It helps!
That's cool dude. I see I'm not the only one taking mental notes of stuff to make my worldbuilding more believable when watching these types of historical videos ^-^
@@InvictaHistory That's interesting. Have you thought about running a campaign on your channel (or sub channel) based on a historical setting, maybe Rome itself? it could be alt history or a pivotal point in History. It would make a great change from Fantasy settings other D&D channels on YT has and of course your knowledge of history would make you the perfect person to run it.
Hannibal is the genius mastermind today as he was in his day. He led a loose confederation through Iberia, France and the inhospitable mountains of the Alps to reach Italy. On the way he had to fight his way up through hostile kingdoms & tribes who employed guerilla tactics to keep him out. He ended up absorbing most of these enemy tribes into his own army. He then began transforming his rag tag army of Carthiginians, Nubians, Iberians, & Gauls into a synchronized deadly war machine. He practically stampeded through Italy on an unparalleled campaign which turned into 15 years. The Roman's were powerless to stop him. Rome at that period was a well established early powerhouse and was unrivaled at the time besides Carthage. For 15 years the Roman's lost all territorial gains beyond Italy & hkd behind their stone walls while Hannibal ran through Roman Italy like he didn't have a leash on him. Hannibal used tactics never seen before in human history using new and innovative ways of fighting his opponents. Greatly outnumbered and outmatched he turned losses into stunning victories and nearly executed the early juggernaut empire before it even began.
@@user-A-png the Phoenicians were a Semitic people. Neither the Romans nor the Greeks were. They were separate ethnic groups. From a genealogy point of view a people's origin is more complicated than similar skin tone and roughly similar part of the world.
Well, yeah... but he lost at the end of the day. I think he had major flaws. People praise him crossing the Alps... he loses a large part of his army, without killing a single Roman... while it is a surprise, I don't think the cost justified it. And maybe with those extra troops he could have actually taken Rome and won the war. And then he just wanders around Italy without any clear direction for a lot of the time. It's clear he was a brilliant tactician, but not a brilliant strategist. Sure, you can blame their Senate for not sending reinforcements, but still... he loses.
@@octavianpopescu4776 if he doesn't cross the Alps he can't get into Italy and then the Romans can just pick the Carthaginians apart using their superior navy.
Examples of what could be considered high level identity theft exist in the Hellenistic dynasties. Andriscus pretended to be the son of the (former) Macedonian King Perseus, and kickstarted the 4th Macedonian War against the occupying Romans in 150BC. There are similar stories with the Seleucid a few decades later, but the whole situation is far more muddled.
Then we have the simpler issue of ID in the Old West, where: "No one dared to ask his business, no one dared to make a slip, for the stranger there among them, had a big-iron on his hip."
although, paul and that centurion were probably speaking greek to each other--greek was the other official language of the realm, especially in the east
Yes, but he could have done certain things like use the Latin form of his name. If he called himself “Paulus”, that might be enough to convince the centurion he meant business…especially since the centurion himself was likely not yet a Roman Citizen. And the Tribune had bought his citizenship, so he was naturally going to be very cautious about molesting a citizen lest his own rights be stripped away. It was obviously a situation where that claim was not liable to be examined too hard.
Now everything makes sense. The scene in Gladiator movie where Maximus tells in the colosseum his whole biography when we reveals his identity surrounded by people who knew him before is a great example of this. Love this video!!!!
Although these things seem too complex and varied by region, I love to know these sort of day to day legalities and workings of the past. It would be awesome to get a medieval version of this topic. Whichever region would work.
In the (late) medieval period, diplomats would have a passport. Literally a document from their ruler that asked the local ruler to let the diplomat pass (into) the port.
For middle ages identity theft, theres the case of Martin Guerre. I remember watching an old movie about the story, and pretty sure there is a book as well. It has been certainly dramatized, but the story is supposedly real
This clip had me thinking of Martin Guerre as well. The Wife of Martin Guerre was a set text at my high school. For medieval impersonation, another one is Claudes des Armoises who impersonated Jeanne d'Arc/Joan of Arc after Joan's death.
There's a really great movie about this called "The Return of Martin Guerre". I recommend it to anyone who finds this kind of subject matter interesting.
I can only imagine Hannibal rolling into a town with his army and staring at the appointed official and telling him: "Look at me...I am the centurion now."
I really love that scene in Rome when Titus is trying to convince The slave trader that the seal on the letter is from Augustus. That's what first made me think how would they prove who they are or were they from in antiquity? Thanks for the Great video I love your channel man keep it up
IIRC, Augustus was actually a title that was common to all the early Roman emperors. When we use the name today, we are referring to Octavias Caesar (or Octavian, whichever you prefer), who was the first to use the title (which literally meant “son of a god”).
The birth certificate part sort of spooked me as a documents translator, since in my country it is very much all the same as those old Roman records, save that we don't require 7 witnesses, just 2 or 3.
@@jablanovicmilos in Italy until a couple of years ago, when we got electronic card ID that take longer to manufacture, we could go to the municipality office and have a picture ID that you could travel in Europe with done on the spot. You needed 2 witnesses with ID, 3 pictures and like 5 euros. (sorry very late reply, but I'm gonna leave it here if anyone else is interested)
This reminds me of my dad who wants me to believe words without any proof, like if someone who tells you something and has status, you have to believe him, when you trying to check if it's true or ask for more evidence, you show how stupid you are. Wtf. My dad lives in middle age inside his head
@no or maybe yes They're examined using digital microscopes though, no seal is exactly the same, even when carved by machines, the imperfections on the original seal can be easily highlighted by a computer.
Family names and lines were also very important. Knowing who your relatives are or were, can carry a lot of weight and help out. You could know of a relative in another city (basically a world away), have never met them before, yet could request help like housing or even money because they are helping further the family name. Names were also a sign of class, people outside tour family could also know your family based purely on the name. You could lie your way into a family, but the family line is well known within the group and they would know of a new member suddenly popped up by word of mouth.
You know, I wonder it the legends of the True Name comes from these ancient forms of identification. "Never let someone know your True Name, lest they gain power over you." - It sounds like magic, but what if those were only cautionary tales to prevent identity theft?
"Your True Name must contain at least 8, but no more than 20 runes. Do not re-use a previous True Name. Do not inscribe your True Name on any scroll or tablet. Your True Name must not contain any offensive or profane runic combinations."
I doubt it. The name you are known by among people would need to be the name written on the citizenship rolls. The citizenship rolls are just lists of names. Your name may be on the roll, but nobody has any way of knowing that that's really you (rather than someone else) unless you are actually known under that name.
I decided to watch this video because in the Book of Acts Paul is constantly appealing to his Roman citizenship. I have always been curious 1) how he became a Roman citizen and 2) why it was so blasted important.
Awesome video, love the delve into daily Roman life! I imagine gathering up 7 witnesses to take into the local town to register a new baby was quite the ordeal, making economic status a big barrier to citizenship in the countryside. I can't wait for the next video like this!
Amusing timing! My friends and I are participating in a game set in Roman times and I questioned something very similar to this recently. Basically, I gave the hypothetical scenario that we steal a chest of gold and then head off to some random part of civilization and claim to be other people to live in wealth. The two questions were "How do you prove you are who you claim to be?" and "How does someone else prove you are someone you claim not to be?".
@@k3m0t19 Health insurance card. It carries exactly the same value as a driver's license in terms of proof of ID. NOTE: It also pulls weight internationally. I used my health insurance card in the application for my stock brokerage account...no problems.
My Mum moved over to Canada in the mid-1960's, and amongst her papers is a letter of recommendation, addressed, as customary, "To Whom It May Concern," from her previous employer, Rank Film Laboratories back in London. It's something like a cover letter, and says what the guy's position there was who wrote it, what Mum's was and her duties, how long she had worked there, and that he had no hesitation recommending her to whatever position she was applying for. This was long before email, of course, and the old copper phone lines crossing the Atlantic were really terrible to try and hear anyone over (we had to really shout down the phone as kids when we called up our grandmother, still back in Britain; didn't help that she was getting a bit deaf!), not to mention, long-distance calls, especially overseas, were *hideously* expensive. But it also had the business's mailing address on it, of course, so any potential employer Mum might run into who wanted ore information from her previous employer could have simply written to them. But at the very least, it was a note from a previous employer (and a well-known one at that) that she could show potential employers anywhere she might end up. The more I study history, the more I realize that the main difference in our lives now over lives in the past-- or even in my childhood, at my age-- is that the present is much more *convenient.* Communications especially can move much much faster; but even simple things like making a cup of coffee or tea in the morning is much simpler these days. Wasn't too long ago (relatively speaking) that doing so would have been more akin to camping (aside from our modern medicine, of course, which is a bloody miracle). But very much the same sort of things were being done (especially the broad strokes of our daily lives), and often to a much higher quality. It simply took longer to do it. :)
As for Paul, there was one case where he was escorted back to Rome to prove his citizenship. Some roman soldiers escorted him back, if it turned out he was not a citizen he would of had a sticky end. As it was he could provide it because he lived in a city which was granted roman citizenship. As it turned out Paul was happy to go back to rome as he was going to be murdered, which is why he claimed citizenship.
@@FsimulatorX You are correct one reason formally stated was to appeal his case, but it was also to confirm his citizenship, which was the most likely reason for the trip to Rome. A more likely scenario would have been for Paul to appeal to powerful local benefactors in his social networks as a means of demonstrating his “citizenship.”, which was probably the real reason he went to Rome and was escorted by legionaries. Its also possible he was not formally a citizen, but regardless the ancient world did not keep those types of records. Getting someone important to support your claim of citizenship was probably the primary mechanism of proving citizenship if it was uncertain. After all the Romans only had his word he was born in Tarsus and had citizenship. Tarsus was made a free city in the times of Augustus, between 27 BC and 14 AD, with Paul being born between 5BC and 5AD meaning its very possible he could claim citizenship. His parents were unlikely to be citizens, so his claim was reasonable but certainly not rock solid. Failure to provide his citizenship would have been rather severe. He did spend most of his life outside Tarsus, so he probably lacked anyone to confirm his claim in that city. Paul was escorted back to Rome, probably by raw recruits, of the 3rd Augusta Legion in 60-61 AD. Just because he claimed citizenship did not mean the legionary commander, probably a senior tribune, believed him, so the tribune probably took this course of action “just in case”. If Paul failed to prove his claim, well that would be the end for Paul. According to the Acts of the Apostles we know Pauls escort was made up of a Centurion and an unknown number of legionaries of the 3rd Augusta. Luke gives a reasonable description, which includes a ship wreck. But you are correct, once his citizenship was confirmed his main stated purpose was to appeal to the emperor, in theory, but in practice this was not a common occurrence and there is some doubt if that was the real reason for his journey. If the emperor heard every appeal, he would have no time for governing. Appeals would go to a local official, not the emperor, so I think this was Luke exaggerating.
Loved this. It's important to remember that, even today, proving citizenship all around the world is a very messy business. That people can gain and lose citizenship on a political or societal whim. And that "proof" of citizenship can always be disregarded or spun ("Only someone who was trying to pose as a citizen would have every single document in order").
@@gmangaming3906 socially it is really important, some tribes wouldn't agree one of their members to marry some outsiders and by outsiders people who aren't Arabs or arabs who don't know anything about their ancestry.
@Lucas Lemos lol But actually in my family my Grandpa's name is Abdullah and all of my uncles and aunts have a kid who has that name and so on it is a tradition for a parent to name one of their kids the same as their parents.
10? If you are purely thinking of biological grandparents that would be 4. 2 parents and both of those have 2 parents. 2×2=4 Did you mean great-grandparents? But that would only be 8.
If the soldigers had time, they looted anything of value. If not - they took what they could grab quickly and run. Some armys like the romans even had a system to make sure that everyone got they share. But not only weapons, armors or gold were valuable - the corpses itself could be used for teeths or to increase the quality of the soil. ua-cam.com/video/HZq_HjKCRB4/v-deo.html
"You picked a bad time to come home to Skyrim, friend. Captain, he's not on the list. What should we do?" "Forget the list! He goes to the block." "By your orders, captain."
Was thinking about this today at work in terms of early American history. Came to the same conclusion that a system of trust was the most common way to identify one’s self. Knowing your local court officials or having someone to vouch for you would be helpful too. Also thought African Americans would be more likely to carry physical identification in the form of either a slave badge or indentured/freedmen papers but could be wrong
One of the rights you left off the list was that of a speedy and (for the time) humane execution if given the death penalty. Roman citizens were protected from the punishment of crucifixion, a punishment used as a psychological terror tactic to keep rebellious territories pacified through fear. This is why Paul was beheaded rather than crucified like other early martyrs. Beheading was the Roman equivalent of lethal injection, as it was a much quicker and cleaner way to kill someone than other methods used at the time. Essentially, part of Roman citizenship was similar to modern rights of protection from cruel/unusual punishments. If you weren’t a Roman citizen well… te ad crucem iubere gauvisus fuerent😬✝️
It wasn’t always the case, tbh. Quintus Rufus had leading citizens in Jerusalem crucified as a response to the widespread mockery he received. He was never prosecuted for it but it was one of they provocations that started the Bar Kokhba revolt.
I’m honestly impressed! They had a much more sophisticated, though still highly exploitable, system than I gave them credit for. Still, I’m sure that plenty of times it didn’t even really matter unless you were wealthy enough1 the poor would still be taken advantage of and such.
Disappointed this video wasn't sponsored by a VPN company haha securing digital identity is of the essence. Also more disappointed Americans don't have a citizen ID as normal nations.
@@nvmtt I believe the closest thing to citizen ID is the census, otherwise its proxy IDs like social insurance number, driver's license etc,. the USA was founded with a lot of divisions, like externally you are a US citizen, but internally you are only a citizen of your state. (something like that, I'm Canadian at any rate). Its harder for a government to enforce something tyrannical if there isn't a federal list of all citizens, that's the premise of it anyway.
Not having a citizen ID is a fairly normal practice in Anglophone nations. Australia and Canada maintain similar practices to the US. IDs are usually issued at a state/province level and don't necessarily imply citizenship, but instead residence in a particular area. Actually having to provide proof of citizenship for something is a rare occurrence, so not having a citizen ID is almost never a problem; natural born and naturalized citizens respectively have birth certificates and certificates of naturalization that prove citizenship. These coupled with a state ID is enough to prove citizenship and identity.
@@kyleperez4959 a question from a Colombian: which other ID number do Americans have in their passport? The State ID and Social security or other combination? Are States obliged to recognize other State's IDs?
In Germany it is like this today: If you were born in Germany, you receive citizenship by registering the newborn. If the parents have another citizenship, the child can have both, but must decide at the age of 18 which citizenship to keep. (request of the conservative parties) If you can also prove that your parents or grandparents were German, you can also obtain German citizenship. It is even possible for EU citizens to retain dual citizenship. It is also possible to apply for German citizenship. Then you have to learn German and attend certain courses. How do you prove citizenship in the EU? With the identity card that every European country issues. This allows you to travel unhindered in the Schengen area, unless a pandemic or a criminal attack. A passport is then required for outside the EU. But not for Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Finland, which have joined the EU travel rules (this does not apply to goods and customs). A passport (sometimes visa) is required for who is not a EU citizens, like from the UK.
Erm, wasn’t the term “indentured” a description of the contract? The two (occasionally more) copies of the contract were written on a single sheet of parchment, and cut apart unevenly so that it would be easy to prove whether the document one party brought to court later matched the one brought by the other. A similar system for recording payments was the split tally, which was a piece of wood with the amount carved down its length, after which it was split lengthwise.
@no or maybe yes how is any of that is different from the current system? The overlords just make it appear as if you have options, choices and freedoms. There is nothing new about this system or the oligarchs who run it. Namaste 🙏
@no or maybe yes though it was that way, today's world, everything has taxes on it, on 💦, electricity 🔌, internet 📶, food, which you can't and will not 🚫 run away from.
Can you do an update video of your bookshelf? I really liked the video you did a couple years ago, and now you possess many more books, so you could talk about them and give recommendations.
Actually longer. No country, empire or kingdom came close to Romes power until the British empire rolled around in 1700. That's why they say man entered the dark ages after Rome fell. Because overall progress slowed to a crawl. It took 1200 years for Britain to take Romes place.
Military Historian, so bias stated. Roman specific: Latin was the language of the plebs in the Western Empire. Greek was the language of the East and educated people throughout the Empire. This is one of the reasons why Christian scriptures were originally written in Greek instead of Hebrew or Latin. Any settlement of a reasonable size would have at least someone who could read Greek. Do not forget that Legionaries would also have other marks of their service in the form of tattoos and a knowledge of the jargon of the military. (Latin or Greek with loanwords from a myriad of Barbaric languages.) And a claim of service would come with a myriad of additional questions to know. (Service dates, units, campaigns, officers, postings, etc. Personally, I would just point to the kit of a nearby legionary in camp and tell the person set it up and march with it. It isn't as simple as grabbing a pack and walking...) And overall, remember that the cost of being caught lying about something serious (like citizenship) doesn't just mean you die. It means you SUFFER enough to make the next guy think it is better to just be flogged or whatever. Our ancestors didn't have the same "delicate sensibilities" we do, so just imagine how bad it got when they wanted to make an Example to stay in peoples minds... Hard to keep perfectly cool when that is on the line. BTW, Crucifixion is a great example. Standard is to tie the victim on. (Nails to do it not common.) They die after days, not hours, because the position restricts your ability to breathe. Eventually your muscles give out and you suffocate. Add in the exposure, positional muscle cramps, verbal abuse, and (best of all) target practice by all the little brats being brought by to see the badman die. Look it up, it is more Grimdark than I can describe...
I recall that at one point Rome's welfare grain distribution system had to be audited because families that had been poor decades prior were now rich and still collecting welfare benefits intended for the poor.
8:39 this is still pretty much in place all across the globe. If you can confidently speak English without a foreign accent, the police will let you go, for the most part. Unless they suspect you have committed a crime. But if you want access to public services, this obviously wouldn't be nearly enough.
I often think "Mafia" when it comes to Rome. "Can we trust him?" "Yes, I pledge for him, I know him since birth." "No, you can't treat him like that, he's a Made Man, are you crazy?" or consider that a "Goodfella" would obtain certain rights and privileges, not the same as a Full Member but some benefits.
Credit. What now defines if you can get money loaned. In other times, credit was your behaviour in the community. If you went to church on sundays, got married, decent job etc, anyone would talk good about you, or even write you a letter of commendation with some seal in case you needed to travel and show your credit. In spanish, tener crédito still means to be truthful.
Throw the biggest party ever, make loads of fruit grow and seeing as he was the god of insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, as well I'd like a convincing display of them all.
If you like learning about daily life in the past, our How They Did It series will be just for you: ua-cam.com/play/PLkOo_Hy3liEKUONCNxFP1q-sLmTqOisJZ.html
Evolution of the Roman Legions part 2 plz
There were quite a few impostors in Roman history, e.g. a slave named Clemens who claimed to be Agrippa Postumus and several Pseudo-Neros.
0:40 I see you are also a cultured individual whomst owns a copy of Legionary!
@invicta I wish I could remember the details at this exact moment, but there is an ancient identity theft are told about. One of the Kings of the Middle East during antiquity (I can't remember if it was an Assyrian, Babylonian, or Persian king) had a younger brother. Younger brother was, according to the records, attempted to rebel and take the crown with support from Egypt. According to some a the time, however, it was actually an imposter who had murdered the king's brother.
Cool topic 👍its something I've often wondered about
Every one of these videos always has that “Oh yeah, your ancestors were literally just as smart as you.” Implication.
They were. A great folly in man is an erroneous assumption that a lack of technological sophistication means a lack of intellectual sophistication, when in many ways, it's the exact opposite. Often technological sophistication means we forget how to do basic tasks. Remembering people's phone numbers for example, used to be quite common even a decade ago, but cell phones have meant that we don't have to remember them anymore, so we don't.
The Romans at least. I don’t think there is any question if you had to go back in time. The Renaissance was basically remembering the Romans.
Smarter probably.
@@GoogleUserOne I think they’re probably all just as smart but are limited by the society they’re in. Their solutions to their problems are probably just as elegant as the romans but limited by their culture and technology.
I mean. Show up in Rome with the blue print of a steam engine, and not only will they definitely build it, I guarantee they'll figure out *how* it works in no time.
As someone who works with records to prove lineage for inheritance matters it's both hilarious and shoking how differently this is handled to this day. Some countries keep massive rolls and can tell you exactly who is whose son, whose brother and whose father, where and where they were born and when and where they died whereas other countries are like "Yeah, that guy once got a drivers license in 1969, so he probably existed."...
In some families in Japan & other parts of Asia people can trace their lineage to the times of Christ. In America it's hard to track your ancestry more than a century or two.
In most european countries it might be hard to access the records, but the church kept track of every birth + parents for example. Unless your family purposefully tried to obscure their identity or you had some bastards, you probably can track up to the middle ages. My father researched for fun some years ago and he found the full family line to the 17th century
@@verybarebones gotta say, the consistent smattering of churches in every darned village was a pretty solid piece of infrastructure
@@michaelweston409 for most US-Americans alive today, "one or two centuries ago" is when their ancestors immigrated (OK, maybe three). I would think that's at least a point where you'll easily lose track of many people's histories. Especially those who might have been inclined to modify their information a bit when, entering the US, they were asked who they are and where they came from. It also happens a lot that their names are modified to match the local customs.
How are you _reliably_ gonna track "John Smith, port of emigration: Hamburg, Germany" to a particular "Johannes Schmitt from Oberasbach, Middle Franconia, Bavaria", especially consiering there are also tons of "Johann Schmidt", "Hannes Schmied" or "Schmitz" etc. 😬
My own family's name couldn't be spelled in German alphabet, so when they immigrated in Danzig 300 years ago the official just wrote down a close transcription. Apparently that official was filling in for someone else and no other families got assigned the same spelling, hence I know every single person coming up on google as a distant cousin at least 😆 Then there's the branch originating from a great-uncle who moved to the US and got another spelling change when _that_ official saw their 'ä' 😁
@@sourcererseven3858 interesting story, didn't expect franconia to pop up in it...
“I am Spartacus!”
“No, I am Spartacus!”
Legionary: “Alright that’s it, your all getting crucified for identity theft!”
Spartacus might be a common name though…. John.
spartacus was a slave and by definition not a citizen, identity theft punishments were for stealing citizens identities
I am Biggus Dikkus
@@Cortesevasive prove it
@@DoughBoy45
😂🤣😁
Another related point is how this related to art. Hellenistic art was idealized, everyone wanted to be made to look like Heracles or Apollo. But Roman art was meant to be hyper realistic. That way, if a Consul showed up in one of the Provinces, everyone would know who he was. Later on, the same was applied to imperial minted coins. Roman soldiers were supposed to be able to recognize the Emperor from the coins they were paid with.
Yeah I was hoping this would’ve been brought up in the video, but oh well.
This wasn't always the case. People made statues of Julius Caesar with hair after he went bald.
And what happened to the coins made in previous emperor's period, when a new emperor crowned? Were they re-minted just to change the face? If so who would pay for the work?
What's the President on the $5 Bill?
@@Marinealver Lincoln, he does double duty on the penny.
Some enterprising Swedish and Danish soldiers up until the 1700's would switch sides according to who's side was winning. The thing is, their language was so similar, that there was no good way of knowing, so they'd throw various tests at each other, such as a particular nursery rhyme which they _knew_ was slightly different on the other side.
Tag, you now have to wear a Blue Coat
Tag, you now have to wear a Brown Coat
Norwegians who have been passed back and forth by both Denmark and Sweden for the past 4 centuries: *oofdah*
Free soldiers fighting for your side though, why reject them
@@verybarebones Because they would leave you too if something does not got in your favor
Sorta like the Shibboleth story
Totally have wondered about this for years.
Especially when the apostle Paul told the Romans that he was a citizen when they arrested him. And the Roman authorities were afraid that they had wrongly arrested and planned on legally punishing a citizen . Of which they would’ve been legally liable themselves.
I was always like, how is that proven?
Speaking Latin with the right kind of accent would help. In the case of Auxiliary troops that served with the Roman military and received citizenship at the end of their service they'd also receive a certificate.
They also wernt circumcised. Roman soldiers were "often" circumcised when dishonorably banished from the legions for serious offences that didnt quite reach death level.
They were then unable to prove roman heritage.
There are cases of this from massada in the Jewish uprisings and it was considered a fairly normal punishment...
Unrelated, but isn't "punitive punishment" repeating yourself? Punitive actions are punishment and punishment is punitive, no?
@@sambeck2510 like "shariah law" when shariah actually already means law.
So its "law law"
@@sambeck2510 lol, yes!
Punishment punishment for the Criminal criminal!
Good catch!
In the case of Carthage, one citizen parent makes sense.
It was a seafaring trading culture. You can easily see how someone could ship out from Tyre and pick up a wife in a place like Miletus or Alexandria.
Sure, but it does basically guarantee you'll have near-universal citizenship amongst non-foreigners within a century or two, especially if that citizenship can pass through women as well. If a citizen has two surviving kids with a non-citizen, who each have two surviving kids, who each have two surviving kids, who each have two kids, you may be looking at 25ish living citizens 'generated' from 1 ancestral citizen after a century (that is crude math, but illustrates the tendency).
A lot would depend on how endogamous the citizen population was.
Alexandria was established very late in the history of Carthage
@@editorrbr2107 All my exes live in Miletus. That's why I hang my head in Carthago.
"Identity theft is not a joke, Gaius. Hundreds of Romans suffer every year."
"Suffer from what?"
"PUNISHMENT."
There is a Turkish saying: "Whoever has the Sultan's seal, is the Sultan"
@Chris G That's how a coup works
@@0000-z4z not exactly
@Chris G Funny enough, yes. In many Chinese action stories (and subsequent movies) a common plot is that either some corrupt official or rebel stole the imperial seal. And that was because, in an empire whose bureaucracy was as complex as China's the seal was the placeholder and verifier of imperial power behind the various edicts and official positions. Hence why the taking of the seal was tantamount to taking the imperial throne.
Yeah . . . about that. In the early part of China's 3 Kingdoms period, one of the warlords got a hold of the Imperial seal and thought the same, insisting that he was now the Emperor because he had the seal. This got all the other warlords to turn on him and utterly destroy him, because just because you have a seal does not mean you have the mandate from heaven.
🎵 We are the sultans
the sultans
Of swing 🎶
What's the difference between a civilian and a citizen?
"Sir! A citizen returns the shopping cart. A civilian does not."
A textbook answer.
Hahaha amazing reference
At least in Republican times, Roman equites wore jus annuli aurei- gold seal rings. Many chose to wear iron instead, but people from a certain class were permitted to wear seal rings to identify who they were and where they stood in society. It was these jus annuli aurei that Hannibal dumped in front of the oligarchs of Carthage following his victories at Trasimene, Trebia, and Cannae to show just how deeply he cut down the Romans and their upper class. Loved the video!
Love these little details.
Still can't believe Carthage didnt press their advantage after Hannibal established himself in southern Italy.
@@geordiejones5618 Me too. Would have been a different world.
@@geordiejones5618 They lacked siege craft to assault the larger well fortified cities. Rome had a much larger population than Carthage and they raised another army and sent it to Africa to attack Carthage directly. The Romans began wide spread carnage and moved to threaten the capitol city of Carthage. This forced the Carthaginians to recall Hannibal and his army back to protect the capitol. Hannibal and the Carthaginians were defeated and this brought an end to the 2nd Punic War.
@@PilgrimBangs you're right. I think a lot of people underestimate the difficulties in besieging a city.
You need to spread out your army over many miles to cut the city off from outside aid but in doing so you risk parts of your army being cut off and defeated in detail. You need to arrange food, fodder and camps with all associated issues like water and sanitation for ten of thousands of men.
There's a letter from a French general to his King (Louis the 14th by memory) that was in the book Supplying War, in which the general informs the King that conducting a siege against a particular city would be impossible due to the city having been besieged the previous year and as such no local fodder would be available for the army to feed its horses.
The nature of Hannibal's army, being in large part mercenary would greatly add to the difficulty as well as being cut off from help from home.
For some amateur back of the envelope calculation involving me trying to remember figures (sorry I don't have the sources on me atm). It was roughly 2 pounds of food per day per man and 20 pounds of fodder per horse. Even if we say they are only eating half because they're just sitting around most of the time, Hannibal's army was roughly 45,000 strong after the battle of Cannae. Say it was 40,000 with 32,000 infantry and 8,000 cavalry. That army would still require 120,000 pounds of food and fodder a day to keep feed.
Identify theft is no joke Jimanius!
Legions of paterfamilia suffer from it every year!
Citizen: "I am him, here is my seal"
Soldier: "sir put that back in the sea"
An example of ancient roman identity theft might explain reports of people seeing emperor nero looking quite well considering he'd committed suicide months prior.
ah yeah, Nero... the Elvis of his days :)
"Lucius, has anyone ever told you that you look just like Nero?"
"Yeah, I get that all the time. Kind of annoying, although I've picked up a lot of hot girls in bars with it."
Lol but real weebs know that Nero was actually a girl
@@stevenscott2136 "I once picked up a girl by pretending to be Emperor Nero and it worked because I believed it." -Saulus Goodmanicus
I was surprised that this video wasn't sponsored by a vpn😂
Someone else paid more
Should have been sponsored by LifeLock
Nordicus VPNicus circa 97 AD
@@seanabbott798 Ancient VPN lmao
"Bypass the Empire's censorship with our message courier service, we deliver through the back road away from Imperial checkpoints"
It was sponsored by the Guild of Millers
I've seen an interesting Renaissance example. The Medici bank had lots of offices transferring lots of money all over Europe, far outside the range where any in-person verification was possible. Apparently, one of their main security tools was handwriting - any time a new banker started, they'd provide a sample of their writing to each other branch, which was kept on file to compare transactions against.
(I assume they also used seals etc. as described in the video, but it's been a while since I read that book, so I can't give any details with certainty.)
i recently wondered if the introduction of typewriters didnt cause a fair share of mischief somehow
As a general rule, every meaningful new technology is invariably used to cause mischief somehow.
@@Crosshill I suppose that is why hand-written signatures remain a thing to this day.
Example: Even though Paul appears to use a secretary on many occasions
Romans 16:22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
He himself would write the greeting in his own handwriting.
2 Thessalonians 3:17 I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write.
If we had the autographs we would expect to see various handwritings for the body of the letters, but a single style for the greetings.
Rene Descartes once wrote:
"Let whoever can do so deceive me, he will never bring it about that I am nothing, so long as I continue to think I am something"
HahahHaha
He died.
bwahahaha.
Who is Rene Descartes?
@@nebsam7137 a corpse
@@aryanavestan2576 What other defining features does he have other than being a corpse?
@@nebsam7137 okay bro here it is : You know that You are moving when the distance between You and some particle changes. But suppose You are adrift in a void with no atoms or even light. no direction,no information,nothing. so you observe nothing. but you still observe your own thoughts. You know that YOUR MIND is real and under only Your control. Now I can put You to sleep,give You fake memories and tea stains on your shirt etc to make You think You drank tea in the past. But You did not. So You cannot be sure that Anything actually happened as You remember it except for Your consciousness. You think THEREFORE You are.
Just want to take a second to thank Invicta for teaching me more about history than school ever did.
no joke, we learn about ancient rome a total of three times in three classes, history, latin and antiquity, and i still feel like i had to relearn everything cause it seems to leave out everything actually significant and, to use the words i was taught in history class, seems to have a biased tendency and should be properly evaluated as a source yeah
Thanks for providing this. I'm putting together a DnD campaign and this fit in perfectly with some of the questions I had about forgery, theft and identity - a lot of great details and jumping-off points to make the game more interesting!
Awesome, as a DM myself I am super eager to hear how this turns out!
@@InvictaHistory I'm still a couple months away from it being exposed to the players, so it's planning stages.
The short version is the party will be working for a low-key crime lord whose portfolio includes forgery - especially important because taking part in politics in the city requires citizenship (single parent-citizen, and must reside in the city), plus more benefits (which I learned from this video, so again, kudos and thanks!). None of the party will be citizens, and I think I'll find something where they need to have their identities forged because they need to be citizens.
I'm currently considering doing some kind of personal seal for citizens and finding a way to work that in to the plot, along with a whole Skull Island vibe that they will eventually explore.
(wanders off to go brainstorm more...)
Anyway, seriously love the videos. Thank you so much for the work you do. It helps!
That's cool dude. I see I'm not the only one taking mental notes of stuff to make my worldbuilding more believable when watching these types of historical videos ^-^
@@InvictaHistory That's interesting. Have you thought about running a campaign on your channel (or sub channel) based on a historical setting, maybe Rome itself? it could be alt history or a pivotal point in History. It would make a great change from Fantasy settings other D&D channels on YT has and of course your knowledge of history would make you the perfect person to run it.
Romans can prove that they are citizens through Skillshare.
It can also be done by play Raid Shadow Legends on a VPN while wearing Raycons.
I hate the antichrist
Skillshare is an online census platform with millions of citizenship records vouched for by Rome's most prestigious citizens.
@@ee-fq2dj Me too man, me too 😔
@@TheGreenKnight500 I hope you're listening to audible with those raycons!!
I am Flavius the general of the 6th legion
source: Dude trust me.
He’s Flavius, trust me.
Let us ask the 6th legion.
_~An hour Later..._
*Milord! The 6th Legion has mutinied!!*
Big brain move by Hannibal there, using the stolen Roman seals to give bogus orders / intel to his enemy.
@@user-A-png he was of Phoenician decent.
Hannibal is the genius mastermind today as he was in his day. He led a loose confederation through Iberia, France and the inhospitable mountains of the Alps to reach Italy. On the way he had to fight his way up through hostile kingdoms & tribes who employed guerilla tactics to keep him out. He ended up absorbing most of these enemy tribes into his own army. He then began transforming his rag tag army of Carthiginians, Nubians, Iberians, & Gauls into a synchronized deadly war machine. He practically stampeded through Italy on an unparalleled campaign which turned into 15 years. The Roman's were powerless to stop him. Rome at that period was a well established early powerhouse and was unrivaled at the time besides Carthage. For 15 years the Roman's lost all territorial gains beyond Italy & hkd behind their stone walls while Hannibal ran through Roman Italy like he didn't have a leash on him. Hannibal used tactics never seen before in human history using new and innovative ways of fighting his opponents. Greatly outnumbered and outmatched he turned losses into stunning victories and nearly executed the early juggernaut empire before it even began.
@@user-A-png the Phoenicians were a Semitic people. Neither the Romans nor the Greeks were. They were separate ethnic groups. From a genealogy point of view a people's origin is more complicated than similar skin tone and roughly similar part of the world.
Well, yeah... but he lost at the end of the day. I think he had major flaws. People praise him crossing the Alps... he loses a large part of his army, without killing a single Roman... while it is a surprise, I don't think the cost justified it. And maybe with those extra troops he could have actually taken Rome and won the war. And then he just wanders around Italy without any clear direction for a lot of the time. It's clear he was a brilliant tactician, but not a brilliant strategist. Sure, you can blame their Senate for not sending reinforcements, but still... he loses.
@@octavianpopescu4776 if he doesn't cross the Alps he can't get into Italy and then the Romans can just pick the Carthaginians apart using their superior navy.
Biggus Sussus: I'm a Roman citizen. Trust me.
Guards: Understandable, have a nice day.
Emperor Amogus shall look into this
I have a friend who'll vouch. His name is Biggus Dickus. His wife is Incontinentia Buttocks
That's a bit sussy
Amogus
@@jangtheconqueror ah yes, I belive Naughtyus Maximus told me about him.
Examples of what could be considered high level identity theft exist in the Hellenistic dynasties. Andriscus pretended to be the son of the (former) Macedonian King Perseus, and kickstarted the 4th Macedonian War against the occupying Romans in 150BC. There are similar stories with the Seleucid a few decades later, but the whole situation is far more muddled.
Then we have the simpler issue of ID in the Old West, where:
"No one dared to ask his business,
no one dared to make a slip,
for the stranger there among them,
had a big-iron on his hip."
To be honest there you could probably survive off bullshittery and a gun tbh
Big Iron...
Big Iron...
What I love about this channel is how many times you tell me about things I didn't even know I'd be interested in
true
"Who are you?" Very familiar starting words of a particularly popular RPG set in a cold fantasy region
Hey you, you are finally awake
Caught in that imperial ambush, just like us and that thief over there
@@derekhuie9410
Damn you stormcloaks, if the imperial hadn't been looking for you.
You’re a long way from the Imperial City
You approach the gate when all of a sudden you hear someone shouting "HALT! Who Goes There?"
although, paul and that centurion were probably speaking greek to each other--greek was the other official language of the realm, especially in the east
The language of the people in the borders of the empire was mainly Latin... with the upper class spiking both
@@enricomanno8434 that's not really true--the lingua franca of the eastern part of the empire remained greek even after roman conquest
Yes, but he could have done certain things like use the Latin form of his name. If he called himself “Paulus”, that might be enough to convince the centurion he meant business…especially since the centurion himself was likely not yet a Roman Citizen. And the Tribune had bought his citizenship, so he was naturally going to be very cautious about molesting a citizen lest his own rights be stripped away. It was obviously a situation where that claim was not liable to be examined too hard.
@@sophiejones7727 totally! i'm not sure how that's a "yes, but"? in any case, i appreciate your thoughts and you taking the time to respond
even though greek was other official language when a roman addressed them in latin they had to answer in latin and not other way around
Now everything makes sense. The scene in Gladiator movie where Maximus tells in the colosseum his whole biography when we reveals his identity surrounded by people who knew him before is a great example of this. Love this video!!!!
3:45
"To be a citizen you must be a free, adult, male with citizen parents."
So, your mother has to be male too? 🙄
Greek citizens were like:
Pikachu, his face aghast.
hellenic omegaverse when
@@Crosshill nO
Maybe they meant her father had to be a citizen.
GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!!!!!
Roman official: "This document is a crude fake."
Issuing City Incorrect!
GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!!! Reject little potato man.
Hello jorgy
Caesar : I’m the emperor. Let me pass
Praetorian: no you’re not
Caesat: Just ask senator Biggus Dickus over there!
Praetorian: That is clearly a made up name, you'll come with me.
Haha arresting the Emperor eh?
It's treason, then.
You could just go on a rant about how the Guals deserved it anyway. Works every time.
If only they had this in Judea at the time...poor, poor Brian
Dude he's not the Messiah.
I am Biggus Dickus and you have insulted me for the last time!! Off with you to the Arena!!!
@@colinrexdixes He's a very naughty boy!
I'm Brian, and so's my wife!
Although these things seem too complex and varied by region, I love to know these sort of day to day legalities and workings of the past. It would be awesome to get a medieval version of this topic. Whichever region would work.
In the (late) medieval period, diplomats would have a passport. Literally a document from their ruler that asked the local ruler to let the diplomat pass (into) the port.
@@Archangelusbe This is still the case with modern UK passports - the first page is basically the Queen's instructions to let the bearer through.
For middle ages identity theft, theres the case of Martin Guerre. I remember watching an old movie about the story, and pretty sure there is a book as well. It has been certainly dramatized, but the story is supposedly real
This clip had me thinking of Martin Guerre as well. The Wife of Martin Guerre was a set text at my high school. For medieval impersonation, another one is Claudes des Armoises who impersonated Jeanne d'Arc/Joan of Arc after Joan's death.
The movie Sommersby with Richard Gere & Jodie Foster is based on the Martin Guerre case
There's a really great movie about this called "The Return of Martin Guerre". I recommend it to anyone who finds this kind of subject matter interesting.
I can only imagine Hannibal rolling into a town with his army and staring at the appointed official and telling him: "Look at me...I am the centurion now."
"Um. Yes, I am the war hero Aulus Paulitus"
"Sir, it's 983 Ab Urbe Condita."
I really love that scene in Rome when Titus is trying to convince The slave trader that the seal on the letter is from Augustus. That's what first made me think how would they prove who they are or were they from in antiquity? Thanks for the Great video I love your channel man keep it up
Well it was actually the seal of Augustus but the contents of the sealed document had nothing to do with the slaves lol
IIRC, Augustus was actually a title that was common to all the early Roman emperors. When we use the name today, we are referring to Octavias Caesar (or Octavian, whichever you prefer), who was the first to use the title (which literally meant “son of a god”).
@@powerofk you remember wrong, Gaius Octavius Thurinius is Octavian's real name 'Caesar" is a title given to Roman emperors and so is "Augustus"
In Taiwan we still use seals to verify identity, and legal documents all have to be stamped with your unique seal.
The birth certificate part sort of spooked me as a documents translator, since in my country it is very much all the same as those old Roman records, save that we don't require 7 witnesses, just 2 or 3.
could you tell me where are you from please? i am kind of interested in knowing where witnesses are required to claim citizenship.
@@jablanovicmilos in Italy until a couple of years ago, when we got electronic card ID that take longer to manufacture, we could go to the municipality office and have a picture ID that you could travel in Europe with done on the spot. You needed 2 witnesses with ID, 3 pictures and like 5 euros.
(sorry very late reply, but I'm gonna leave it here if anyone else is interested)
You have a knack for making topics I would think to be uninteresting exceedingly interesting.
This reminds me of my dad who wants me to believe words without any proof, like if someone who tells you something and has status, you have to believe him, when you trying to check if it's true or ask for more evidence, you show how stupid you are. Wtf.
My dad lives in middle age inside his head
Seals (hanko) are still used in Japan today. I had to get one when I lived in Japan for legal documents.
@no or maybe yes They're examined using digital microscopes though, no seal is exactly the same, even when carved by machines, the imperfections on the original seal can be easily highlighted by a computer.
They're also used in many other countries
Family names and lines were also very important. Knowing who your relatives are or were, can carry a lot of weight and help out. You could know of a relative in another city (basically a world away), have never met them before, yet could request help like housing or even money because they are helping further the family name. Names were also a sign of class, people outside tour family could also know your family based purely on the name. You could lie your way into a family, but the family line is well known within the group and they would know of a new member suddenly popped up by word of mouth.
You know, I wonder it the legends of the True Name comes from these ancient forms of identification. "Never let someone know your True Name, lest they gain power over you." - It sounds like magic, but what if those were only cautionary tales to prevent identity theft?
Well, after being used to prove your identity once, then it would be known anyway. Sometimes what sounds like magic, just is magic. :D
"Your True Name must contain at least 8, but no more than 20 runes. Do not re-use a previous True Name. Do not inscribe your True Name on any scroll or tablet. Your True Name must not contain any offensive or profane runic combinations."
Well, in Thailand they do still use their legal name like this. Most people don’t use their birth names in daily conversation
I doubt it. The name you are known by among people would need to be the name written on the citizenship rolls. The citizenship rolls are just lists of names. Your name may be on the roll, but nobody has any way of knowing that that's really you (rather than someone else) unless you are actually known under that name.
@@anderskorsback4104 Do you tell everyone your middle name?
This topic is not a joke, Invicta.
It effects millions of families every year!
The Roman passport is lit, not gonna lie.
I would love having it.
Ancient Rome -- a culture so manly that you can break someone's jaw by hitting them with your passport!
I decided to watch this video because in the Book of Acts Paul is constantly appealing to his Roman citizenship. I have always been curious 1) how he became a Roman citizen and 2) why it was so blasted important.
Awesome video, love the delve into daily Roman life! I imagine gathering up 7 witnesses to take into the local town to register a new baby was quite the ordeal, making economic status a big barrier to citizenship in the countryside. I can't wait for the next video like this!
Amusing timing! My friends and I are participating in a game set in Roman times and I questioned something very similar to this recently.
Basically, I gave the hypothetical scenario that we steal a chest of gold and then head off to some random part of civilization and claim to be other people to live in wealth. The two questions were "How do you prove you are who you claim to be?" and "How does someone else prove you are someone you claim not to be?".
Invicta: "We prove our identity with..."
Me: "ID cards, of course."
Invicta: "Drivers licences, SSN, birth certificates."
Me:"Right, I forgot you're Americans."
Or Canadians we don't have all in one ID cards either
Driver's License is kind of "the ID card". You can use it to prove your identity for like 90% of things that requires an identity check.
@@Rayden440 what if you are disabled and couldn't get driving licence ?
@@k3m0t19 Health insurance card.
It carries exactly the same value as a driver's license in terms of proof of ID.
NOTE: It also pulls weight internationally. I used my health insurance card in the application for my stock brokerage account...no problems.
My Mum moved over to Canada in the mid-1960's, and amongst her papers is a letter of recommendation, addressed, as customary, "To Whom It May Concern," from her previous employer, Rank Film Laboratories back in London. It's something like a cover letter, and says what the guy's position there was who wrote it, what Mum's was and her duties, how long she had worked there, and that he had no hesitation recommending her to whatever position she was applying for.
This was long before email, of course, and the old copper phone lines crossing the Atlantic were really terrible to try and hear anyone over (we had to really shout down the phone as kids when we called up our grandmother, still back in Britain; didn't help that she was getting a bit deaf!), not to mention, long-distance calls, especially overseas, were *hideously* expensive. But it also had the business's mailing address on it, of course, so any potential employer Mum might run into who wanted ore information from her previous employer could have simply written to them. But at the very least, it was a note from a previous employer (and a well-known one at that) that she could show potential employers anywhere she might end up.
The more I study history, the more I realize that the main difference in our lives now over lives in the past-- or even in my childhood, at my age-- is that the present is much more *convenient.* Communications especially can move much much faster; but even simple things like making a cup of coffee or tea in the morning is much simpler these days. Wasn't too long ago (relatively speaking) that doing so would have been more akin to camping (aside from our modern medicine, of course, which is a bloody miracle).
But very much the same sort of things were being done (especially the broad strokes of our daily lives), and often to a much higher quality. It simply took longer to do it. :)
Judas proved Jesus` identity
He could have just kissed some random dude and they would believed him that it was jesus. Hehe
@@GeorgeEstregan828 another stupid comment
@@GeorgeEstregan828 or maybe that is a random dude he kissed...
Barrabas, the one choosed by the people to be freed, his fullname is "JESUS BARRABAS."
Give that Jesus was a super common name at the time, kissing a random stranger could have possibly caught you a random Jesus.
This channel really a gem I’ve always loved history it’s awesome to see a passionate channel like this one talking about history
As for Paul, there was one case where he was escorted back to Rome to prove his citizenship. Some roman soldiers escorted him back, if it turned out he was not a citizen he would of had a sticky end. As it was he could provide it because he lived in a city which was granted roman citizenship. As it turned out Paul was happy to go back to rome as he was going to be murdered, which is why he claimed citizenship.
He was born in Tarsus. A Roman City in Asia Minor. He was a citizen.
He wasn't escorted back to Rome to prove his citizenship. He went to Rome because he appealed to Caesar for his case.
@@FsimulatorX You are correct one reason formally stated was to appeal his case, but it was also to confirm his citizenship, which was the most likely reason for the trip to Rome. A more likely scenario would have been for Paul to appeal to powerful local benefactors in his social networks as a means of demonstrating his “citizenship.”, which was probably the real reason he went to Rome and was escorted by legionaries. Its also possible he was not formally a citizen, but regardless the ancient world did not keep those types of records. Getting someone important to support your claim of citizenship was probably the primary mechanism of proving citizenship if it was uncertain.
After all the Romans only had his word he was born in Tarsus and had citizenship. Tarsus was made a free city in the times of Augustus, between 27 BC and 14 AD, with Paul being born between 5BC and 5AD meaning its very possible he could claim citizenship. His parents were unlikely to be citizens, so his claim was reasonable but certainly not rock solid. Failure to provide his citizenship would have been rather severe. He did spend most of his life outside Tarsus, so he probably lacked anyone to confirm his claim in that city.
Paul was escorted back to Rome, probably by raw recruits, of the 3rd Augusta Legion in 60-61 AD. Just because he claimed citizenship did not mean the legionary commander, probably a senior tribune, believed him, so the tribune probably took this course of action “just in case”. If Paul failed to prove his claim, well that would be the end for Paul.
According to the Acts of the Apostles we know Pauls escort was made up of a Centurion and an unknown number of legionaries of the 3rd Augusta. Luke gives a reasonable description, which includes a ship wreck.
But you are correct, once his citizenship was confirmed his main stated purpose was to appeal to the emperor, in theory, but in practice this was not a common occurrence and there is some doubt if that was the real reason for his journey. If the emperor heard every appeal, he would have no time for governing. Appeals would go to a local official, not the emperor, so I think this was Luke exaggerating.
Loved this. It's important to remember that, even today, proving citizenship all around the world is a very messy business. That people can gain and lose citizenship on a political or societal whim. And that "proof" of citizenship can always be disregarded or spun ("Only someone who was trying to pose as a citizen would have every single document in order").
Me living in Saudi Arabia knowing the name of my 10 grandparents
Good for you 🙄🙄
@@gmangaming3906 socially it is really important, some tribes wouldn't agree one of their members to marry some outsiders and by outsiders people who aren't Arabs or arabs who don't know anything about their ancestry.
@Lucas Lemos lol
But actually in my family my Grandpa's name is Abdullah and all of my uncles and aunts have a kid who has that name and so on it is a tradition for a parent to name one of their kids the same as their parents.
Oh shit so like “Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Son of...”
10?
If you are purely thinking of biological grandparents that would be 4.
2 parents and both of those have 2 parents. 2×2=4
Did you mean great-grandparents? But that would only be 8.
Could you do a video about what happened to battlefields after War?
What happened to the weapons the armored people Etc?
Looted by the Victor's
If the soldigers had time, they looted anything of value.
If not - they took what they could grab quickly and run.
Some armys like the romans even had a system to make sure that everyone got they share.
But not only weapons, armors or gold were valuable - the corpses itself could be used for teeths or to increase the quality of the soil.
ua-cam.com/video/HZq_HjKCRB4/v-deo.html
I know it's not really what you asked for, but in France even in 1980s it was still possible to find broken tanks in fields
@@JJtoutcourt thats cool to know 👍
"You picked a bad time to come home to Skyrim, friend. Captain, he's not on the list. What should we do?"
"Forget the list! He goes to the block."
"By your orders, captain."
Was thinking about this today at work in terms of early American history. Came to the same conclusion that a system of trust was the most common way to identify one’s self. Knowing your local court officials or having someone to vouch for you would be helpful too. Also thought African Americans would be more likely to carry physical identification in the form of either a slave badge or indentured/freedmen papers but could be wrong
One of the rights you left off the list was that of a speedy and (for the time) humane execution if given the death penalty. Roman citizens were protected from the punishment of crucifixion, a punishment used as a psychological terror tactic to keep rebellious territories pacified through fear. This is why Paul was beheaded rather than crucified like other early martyrs. Beheading was the Roman equivalent of lethal injection, as it was a much quicker and cleaner way to kill someone than other methods used at the time. Essentially, part of Roman citizenship was similar to modern rights of protection from cruel/unusual punishments.
If you weren’t a Roman citizen well… te ad crucem iubere gauvisus fuerent😬✝️
It wasn’t always the case, tbh. Quintus Rufus had leading citizens in Jerusalem crucified as a response to the widespread mockery he received. He was never prosecuted for it but it was one of they provocations that started the Bar Kokhba revolt.
Why yes, that actually was both entertaining and informative, thank you!
Love the channel, keep up the awesome work!
This vid is so interesting! I’d love one about finances - banks? Borrowing money? Savings? Bartering?
I’m honestly impressed! They had a much more sophisticated, though still highly exploitable, system than I gave them credit for. Still, I’m sure that plenty of times it didn’t even really matter unless you were wealthy enough1 the poor would still be taken advantage of and such.
I absolutely love this channel. The videos covering the ancient world, especially Rome/Greece/Carthage are excellent
Disappointed this video wasn't sponsored by a VPN company haha securing digital identity is of the essence. Also more disappointed Americans don't have a citizen ID as normal nations.
Americans don't????
SERIOUSLY?
@@nvmtt I believe the closest thing to citizen ID is the census, otherwise its proxy IDs like social insurance number, driver's license etc,. the USA was founded with a lot of divisions, like externally you are a US citizen, but internally you are only a citizen of your state. (something like that, I'm Canadian at any rate). Its harder for a government to enforce something tyrannical if there isn't a federal list of all citizens, that's the premise of it anyway.
Not having a citizen ID is a fairly normal practice in Anglophone nations. Australia and Canada maintain similar practices to the US. IDs are usually issued at a state/province level and don't necessarily imply citizenship, but instead residence in a particular area.
Actually having to provide proof of citizenship for something is a rare occurrence, so not having a citizen ID is almost never a problem; natural born and naturalized citizens respectively have birth certificates and certificates of naturalization that prove citizenship. These coupled with a state ID is enough to prove citizenship and identity.
@@kyleperez4959 a question from a Colombian: which other ID number do Americans have in their passport? The State ID and Social security or other combination? Are States obliged to recognize other State's IDs?
In Germany it is like this today:
If you were born in Germany, you receive citizenship by registering the newborn.
If the parents have another citizenship, the child can have both, but must decide at the age of 18 which citizenship to keep. (request of the conservative parties)
If you can also prove that your parents or grandparents were German, you can also obtain German citizenship.
It is even possible for EU citizens to retain dual citizenship.
It is also possible to apply for German citizenship. Then you have to learn German and attend certain courses.
How do you prove citizenship in the EU?
With the identity card that every European country issues. This allows you to travel unhindered in the Schengen area, unless a pandemic or a criminal attack.
A passport is then required for outside the EU.
But not for Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Finland, which have joined the EU travel rules (this does not apply to goods and customs).
A passport (sometimes visa) is required for who is not a EU citizens, like from the UK.
Boys, it's me: Joe Swanson. My name is sufficient proof I am a descendant of Mars
Really shows how important your relationship with your community was in the past
You might find interest in how guilds guarded their secrets and proved identity with signs, sayings etc. Eg masons.
You are killing it! Love this series!
I can just imagine Hannibal using the seals:
"Ve haff cheque muntan annd certanlie no efephantso."
You ask the most interesting questions! Great job 👍
"ho i am your long lost germanic uncle whit no heirs yes send me 2 golden coins so i can send you my fortune"
I have always wondering about these little questions! Thanks so much!!
I’ve just started the video but I bet you’ll talk about “indentured apprentices” when people bit into modeling clay because their teeth were unique.
Erm, wasn’t the term “indentured” a description of the contract? The two (occasionally more) copies of the contract were written on a single sheet of parchment, and cut apart unevenly so that it would be easy to prove whether the document one party brought to court later matched the one brought by the other. A similar system for recording payments was the split tally, which was a piece of wood with the amount carved down its length, after which it was split lengthwise.
Great video! Keep them coming. Regards from Malta.
2 dislikes in 2 minutes? At least watch the whole video before hating 🤦🏾♂️
@ cuz Johnny said so
This is the one-time I would've thought a VPN sponsorship would have fit loll
Easy. They just bring their tablets.
I’ll see myself out.
Would an Ipad do? Or would an android be sufficient? 😂
@@eelchiong6709 i think they used Istone back then
- Who are you ?
- I am
- can you prove it ?
- yes, sure
- ok, have a nice day
This confirms that today's world is based on Roman law
In the US they refer to DC as rome on the Potomac 😂😂😂 coincidence?
All roads lead to Rome 😉
@no or maybe yes even though it's true, modern world is too corrupt than in Roman empire
@no or maybe yes Then, people used to dodge taxes easily, but now we pay taxes willing or unwillingly
@no or maybe yes how is any of that is different from the current system? The overlords just make it appear as if you have options, choices and freedoms. There is nothing new about this system or the oligarchs who run it. Namaste 🙏
@no or maybe yes though it was that way, today's world, everything has taxes on it, on 💦, electricity 🔌, internet 📶, food, which you can't and will not 🚫 run away from.
Can you do an update video of your bookshelf?
I really liked the video you did a couple years ago, and now you possess many more books, so you could talk about them and give recommendations.
After the fall of Rome it took more than 1000 years to recover and reach anything comparable to Rome at its peak.
Excellent comment
Actually longer. No country, empire or kingdom came close to Romes power until the British empire rolled around in 1700. That's why they say man entered the dark ages after Rome fell. Because overall progress slowed to a crawl. It took 1200 years for Britain to take Romes place.
@@Berfo1 ha, where did you get that from?‽ It was late 50s and early 60s. Average
@@Berfo1 I absolutely disagree
From where did you get this information? Of course according to you ... your history it's better ...as you like it
@@enricomanno8434 a quick google search will show him it was indeed in the late 50s early 60s. and even then there were people who lived to be older.
Military Historian, so bias stated.
Roman specific: Latin was the language of the plebs in the Western Empire. Greek was the language of the East and educated people throughout the Empire. This is one of the reasons why Christian scriptures were originally written in Greek instead of Hebrew or Latin. Any settlement of a reasonable size would have at least someone who could read Greek.
Do not forget that Legionaries would also have other marks of their service in the form of tattoos and a knowledge of the jargon of the military. (Latin or Greek with loanwords from a myriad of Barbaric languages.) And a claim of service would come with a myriad of additional questions to know. (Service dates, units, campaigns, officers, postings, etc. Personally, I would just point to the kit of a nearby legionary in camp and tell the person set it up and march with it. It isn't as simple as grabbing a pack and walking...)
And overall, remember that the cost of being caught lying about something serious (like citizenship) doesn't just mean you die. It means you SUFFER enough to make the next guy think it is better to just be flogged or whatever. Our ancestors didn't have the same "delicate sensibilities" we do, so just imagine how bad it got when they wanted to make an Example to stay in peoples minds... Hard to keep perfectly cool when that is on the line.
BTW, Crucifixion is a great example. Standard is to tie the victim on. (Nails to do it not common.) They die after days, not hours, because the position restricts your ability to breathe. Eventually your muscles give out and you suffocate. Add in the exposure, positional muscle cramps, verbal abuse, and (best of all) target practice by all the little brats being brought by to see the badman die. Look it up, it is more Grimdark than I can describe...
There must have been those who successfully passed as citizens, and after some generation! Depends on record keeping to.
A Short History Of Nearly Everything is one of my favorite books!
I recall that at one point Rome's welfare grain distribution system had to be audited because families that had been poor decades prior were now rich and still collecting welfare benefits intended for the poor.
8:39 this is still pretty much in place all across the globe. If you can confidently speak English without a foreign accent, the police will let you go, for the most part. Unless they suspect you have committed a crime. But if you want access to public services, this obviously wouldn't be nearly enough.
- I'm a Roman, sir
- a uoman?
- No, a Roman!
Slap!
Romanus Autus Dommus!
I appreciate that at the end, this took on a "how-to" slant.
I often think "Mafia" when it comes to Rome. "Can we trust him?" "Yes, I pledge for him, I know him since birth." "No, you can't treat him like that, he's a Made Man, are you crazy?" or consider that a "Goodfella" would obtain certain rights and privileges, not the same as a Full Member but some benefits.
Silly comments related to a barbarian
Very useful! I haven't been able to find much detail about daily life in the ancient world on UA-cam, this was a find.
SPQR Passport sounds awesome
Credit. What now defines if you can get money loaned. In other times, credit was your behaviour in the community. If you went to church on sundays, got married, decent job etc, anyone would talk good about you, or even write you a letter of commendation with some seal in case you needed to travel and show your credit. In spanish, tener crédito still means to be truthful.
I am God Dionysius, how do you want me to prove it
Drink 10 liters of wine within an hour without passing out.
By giving me five jars of the finest roman wine
Throw the biggest party ever, make loads of fruit grow and seeing as he was the god of insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, as well I'd like a convincing display of them all.
Everything has been granted and done, my childs :D Do you believe me now?
lol
making a comment to support the channel