Even after exploring a dozen cauldrons and GAIA facilities, going down into that bunker was the most unsettled I'd felt in a while, playing Forbidden West; I thought the same thing, like, 'I've SEEN this episode of DW.' I would never have guessed *that* to be what Aloy would find in there, at the same time I couldn't really muster up a lot of surprise at Ted's BS lol
Ted Faro quite literally and knowingly slaughtered billions of ppl, all animals and plants on the earth and underwater. Yet still had the nerve to try to live forever. What a turd of a human😡 If i had been Elizabet, i would not have been able to resist throat punching him😂😂😂
That is 100% the best way to describe them! Like, what Ted Faro's made of himself is grotesque and bizarre, for all that we don't even see it, but you're right, the Zeniths are just. Absurd. Menacingly silly. What an opponent to have.
@grumble And getting to bap em all is hope punk as hell. I think the staff, talent, and production being Dutch might have been an socio-narrative factor too
It honestly makes sense too! Billionaires are inherently selfish (how else do you get that rich?) and have huge impacts/footprints on the earth. They see themselves differently to the rest - the Zeniths are technologically advanced, immortal, 1000 year old versions of those billionaires who left earth without sharing the possibility of a future. They were always going to be irredeemable, absurd people
This was an absolute masterpiece of a video. Always so glad to find people who understand and appreciate the depth of Horizon. LOVED this video, thank you for it 💚
I love the entire essay! I didn't even notice that an hour has even passed. There is one thing I'd like to add however. Given that Zero Dawn was racing against the clock, how many cultures, their values, traditions and stories made it into the final version of Apollo? How many managed to be coded into APOLLO, and subsequently GAIA, and how many did not make it? I firmly believe that Apollo was the one that would be extensively worked on after Zero Dawn was launched, with the Alphas working their remaining days towards adding in more knowledge into it and rewording anything that was adding in vaguely due to time. It's why I consider Ted killing the Alphas his single greatest crime against Humanity. A purged Apollo can be salvaged by the Alphas given that it would be their single most important project with everything else completed, but with the Alphas killed. While the Apollo database in the Oddysey might be able to help, it is however, a prototype and lacked everything that was added after the ship's escape nor anything that could be added after Zero Dawn was launched. Who knows how many cultures remained after Ted's folly and who knows how many remain to be accessed within the Oddysey.
Thank you! And I absolutely agree, finding out that Faro purged APOLLO - and *how* he did it - was devastating to me as I played it. Like I said, it was triage, and so much was lost in addition to what they didn't get the chance to preserve. I wonder if it's also a Watsonian explanation for how everyone speaks English? Like, the Doyle-ian is that the writers couldn't sleight-of-hand a universal translator like in Mass Effect, so everyone just understands the Quen and vice versa. There's different dialects though, surely, and it's noted that different tribes have their own scripts and glyphs in writing. I interpreted that as, everyone in the cradle facilities was raised in English, to ease universal understanding, and then through APOLLO they would have been meant to learn the regional languages, in order to preserve those cultures.
@@grumbleYou can actually find a datapoint in the base in FW that confirms this! Alva was wondering why everyone speaks the same language so she asked GAIA, who explained that the people in the cradle facilities were supposed to learn about all sorts of languages, but due to the purge of APOLLO that info was lost, so the system reverted to its default language
@@grumble One thing that I always wanted an answer to regarding Apollo was 'what was their process for adding cultures?'. Did they provide an equal distribution of every single culture in the world? Did they accidentally recreated the divide between the Global North vs the Global South by prioritizing the Western world over everything else? Were entries regarding those cultures written or verified by an expert from that very culture or did they take whatever scraps they could throw it in and fix it later on? Apollo itself is so interesting and so devastating of a loss. Not to mention there are possible ramifications as to what would've happened if Apollo wasn't purged. Will English be taught as a primary language over everything else? Would the Apollo team accidentally force the first reborn humans to learn English over say, French, Cantonese, German and other languages? It's honestly why I hated Ted ever since I saw that recording of him killing the Alphas and purging Apollo, because despite whatever he thinks he's doing, he essentially erased cultures from marginalized groups, their knowledge and their talents without any hesitation whatsoever as if they never even existed.
Aloy seeing herself as one of Gaia's machines is suuuuuuch a good point and helps to explain some of her more un-emotional, repressing instincts (though they have many causes). Thank you for this essay, it was an absolute treat! You capture the Horizon universe beautifully. Can't wait to see what's next!
Having played both games to platinum ( aka big fan) I’.d always wanted to try and explain to others how deep the game is (and how brilliant the world and story Guerrilla have created is) but I’ve never had the language, a framework of the time (too busy playing). This video, your video essay is beyond outstanding. Thank you. I hope that Guerrilla themselves will promote it. Thank you.
I’ve had this video in my watch later playlist for so long. I finally found the energy to watch it. I am simply amazed by the quality of the content and the ideas explored. Horizon is such a smart and emotional game. Im so glad analyses like this video exist. Thank you for this.
Great great video. There is one small thing i dont completely agree with though. I dont think Sylens wanted to kill Aloy in the proving lab. I beleive him whenhe said he didnt anticipate the Zeniths would have a clone of Elizabet. His initial plan was to have the Zeniths capture Aloy and have access to the Zeniths in some way. Atleast thats what i got when sylens explained himself. I dont think he wantec aloy dead, if it happenedoh well but he was trying to get a way in go the zeniths through Aloy i think. But i could be wrong too.
Thanks! Another commenter has raised this as well, and it's a fair point! I think, along with Aloy, I weighed the outcome more heavily than the intent there. Like you said, Sylens knew she might well get killed if she put up a fight - and, well, it's Aloy - and sent her into the trap anyway, completely unprepared. He does concede he needed her "out of the way," and for someone like Aloy, that kinda translates to dead lol. But I didn't represent his full original intent.
@@grumble On the contrary Sylens knew with 100 percent certainty that the Zeniths would NOT harm Aloy because she was the only key to the gene locked doors that the Zeniths absolutely needed access to. They would keep her prisoner and out of his hair (if he had any) while he enacted his plan. Plenty of time afterward to free her when their shields were down and he had gotten what he came for. He could never have imagined that the Zeniths would have their one Sobeck clone and instead see Aloy as an unwanted distraction. This chain of events to me shows rather Sylens arrogance and the pitfalls it presents rather than malevolence. He is used to being the master manipulator and seeing things far in advance planning for every contingency. But this shows that he is fallible and can’t see all ends. I’m also sure he wouldn’t have felt too bad if Aloy had been killed but would rather have been disappointed that he had made an oversight in his calculations. That’s kinda the guy he has been presented to be so far at least.
I think effectively handing Aloy over to Zenith was a multifaceted plan: -put Aloy somewhere she can't interfere -have Aloy prepositioned as an asset when he goes after FZ -I would 100% bet that he was going to use spyware on Aloy's focus as an avenue for intelligence gathering and possibly cyberattack on FZ
There *ARE* a few differences between Elizabet and Aloy's choices that warrant examining them, I think. With Elizabet and ZD, there was no alternative. Defeating the Faro Plague was impossible, and the only reason Far Zenith managed to get off-world was because the Odyssey had been built decades beforehand. With no hope to fight and no hope to escape, the only option was to rebuild afterwards. While it may be a long shot, Aloy has a chance to stop Nemesis and save the world. Where Elizabet had no choice but to let people die, Aloy would be choosing to let millions die. Second, terraforming a new planet is probably not even possible anymore. It took GAIA, with all of her subordinate functions, centuries of trial-and-error to craft a livable biosphere, and even now it's not perfect. GAIA doesn't have HEPHAESTUS to make new machines, no HADES to reset if things go sideways, and ARTEMIS, DEMETER, and ELUTHIA have been drained of their Phase 1 plant and animal stocks. Add in that the only person with anything close to resembling a proper education is a traumatized seventeen year old, and starting over on a new planet may be even harder than defeating Nemesis. And third, while Sylens tried to make it seem like a noble cause, he wanted to leave for purely selfish reasons. Right up until the point he chose to stay, Sylens was little better than the Zeniths, running from the problem so he could pursue selfish goals while dressing it up as 'saving humanity'. And Ithink Aloy knows Sylens well enough to see through his smokescreen.
This was soooooo well made. I think you really hit the nail on the head as to how much this franchise values knowledge, and how different people with different morals handle knowledge, with Aloy truly being the only one willing to share knowledge with those who display a willingness to learn, though part of this also stems from Aloy developing a willingness and patience to teach, which is just as important. It certainly took a lot of convincing from people like Varl and Erend to have Aloy open up to them, and accept help from them without viewing them as people who would slow her down, having been previously burned by people who are far more closed-minded like the Nora, or as duplicitous as Sylens. As much as Aloy views herself as Sobek's successor and humanity's savior, I think even Aloy was able to understand that Sobek isolated herself emotionally and formed no attachments because she didn't believe any of the people she may have cared for in the past were capable of assisting her, and so she poured herself into Zero Dawn. Aloy however, particularly in Forbidden West, learned the value of friendship (partly from seeing recordings of Sobek's isolation, but also from how Sylens chooses to isolate himself), and this is what will see her through in saving the world from Nemesis to secure the future Sobek always wanted, but was unable to complete.
I've often been frustrated by alloy's behavior towards others, but you actually explain her so well that I get it now, good job! I didn't plan on watching the whole, I was shcoked when I realized I had, at no point did i get bored or even realize how much time had passed
stumbled across this video by the UA-cam algorithm and and was very survives by this excellent and well taught essay , looking to forward to more of you vids. you did a great work
Did Sylens really plan on her death when he led her to the zeniths at Latopolis? I thought his assumption was that they would capture her but not kill her because they needed her genetic prints (missing the fact they have a Sobek clone).
iirc Aloy accuses him of accepting her death as one of the potential consequences of that encounter and he didn't deny it - presuming that they could have used the genetic prints of a dead body just as well as a live one, and considering that Sylens knows Aloy doesn't go down without a fight.
@@grumble True but he also did warn Aloy not to to fight the Zeniths. He told her that they would have no reason to harm her once they saw who she was i.e. a clone of Sobek. Under normal circumstances, this would have been enough of a reason for the Far Zeniths to keep her alive but under their control. It was a calculated risk , but one that would serve to keep Aloy out of Sylens way as he continued his machinations with the Tenakth civil war and prototyping of the Zenith shield breaker. This is where Sylens made his first genuine mistake in his usually airtight scheming. While Sylens knew about Nemesis from Hades, he did not know about Beta nor did he know that Gerard would disaprove of keeping Aloy as a redundant key to other GAIA facilities. His 2nd mistake of course was underestimating Aloy's persistence. She not only escaped the Zeniths once but did so multiple times and then proceeded to end the civil war and force Sylens to come to talks with her group if he wanted to make any headway on infiltrating the Zenith base.
@@alphabetparadox Fair points! For a guy who likes to have contingencies for his contingencies, Sylens really goofed that up :D As you say, his plans are usually airtight. Though I'd say any plan that involved using an entire tribe as cannon fodder is doomed by the narrative, and not up to Sylens' usually more elegant standards. Desperate times, desperate measures...
@@nigelstirzaker1232 mmh I've gone snooping a bit after getting back, but I'm not sure! I gotta have another look 👀 I do love the interactive items they added for all the companions to make the place more like home.
It's so satisfying to find an intelligent video that manages to capture and synthesize the depth of Horizon's story very well, as well as the depth and complexity of Aloy. Thanks for this essay.
I have tried so many times (and failed just as many) to summarize and share the brilliance I perceive Horizon to be with friends. I’m so happy to have come across this video. Like so many others here in the comments I really appreciate how effectively you tell the story while also conveying the depth of it. I would easily have watched this video even if it went on for another hour.
This is hands down one of my favorite topics within the Horizon series and you handled it so completely and clearly. So glad this got recommended to me! I really look forward to watching whatever you make in the future!
Great topic! I am glad to find this video. HZD was very very important game for me. The rage I felt when I realized what Faro Did led to long retrospective which helped me understand what for me means being human and Knowledge sharing as my core value.
24:40 I thought this part of the game was a bit too on the nose when I first played it (wow, capitalism is like cancer, how original 🙄), but I found myself appreciating it a lot more on my recent NG+ playthrough and especially after watching this section. The man who laid the groundwork for the rampant, malignant growth of the machine swarm ultimately became a giant blob of cancerous tissue himself. There’s a nice poetic irony in that. Actually, speaking of the Thebes section, I saw a comment on a collection of combat themes that absolutely floored me and I want to signal boost their take. The commenter (credit to @FreemanicParacusia on the video "HFW Machine Battle Themes") pointed out that Faro had corrupters, the very machines that were actively ravaging the surface, placed essentially as decorations in his bunker. Machines that, if his namesake plague ever found its way into Thebes, would kill everyone in a heartbeat. It’s yet another example of his short-sighted egotism.
This kicks ass, Grumble 🎉 It's an absolutely fascinating and thorough examination, and I really appreciate how in-depth you went in giving important details to people who don't know the story. Awesome work!
Really great video. I do disagree with the notion that Sylens wanted Aloy killed by the Zeniths. He wanted her out of the way certainly. But he incorrectly assumed the Zeniths would use her, as he did not account for the existence of Beta. I would also argue that by the end of Forbidden West, Aloy has already let go of the notion of following in Elisabet's footsteps. At the end, both Tilda and Sylens speak to Aloy as if she is "bound" to be like Elisabet. When Sylens asks her to board the shuttle with him, because that's what Elisabet would do in his estimation, Aloy says goodbye. Because she finally acknowledges to herself that she is not Elisabet and she can chart her own course as Aloy. She doesn't say it explicitly, but I think that's why two characters insist on comparing her to Elisabet only for Aloy to reject both arguments. She is Aloy, not Elisabet.
Thanks! Other commenters have brought this up as well, I think I just weighed the outcome more heavily, along Aloy's interpretation of it, than what Sylens' initial intent might have been; simply because he took Aloy's eventual death (when the Zeniths had no more use for her and if her escape failed) in stride.
really glad this got recomended to me! The set-up to Horizon is, IMO just about as good a set up for a Sci-fi story/video game as you could get. Such an interesting concept... a new civilization build on the ashes of ours with ours serving as a mytological/religious foundation. To top it off they did a fantastic job with the characters and living world especially in HFW, even if the story faultered a bit (Burning Shores story was great though, if too short) Al that said, your insight is great! Can't wait to see what you do next. Subscribed.
Thank you!! HFW was maybe just a tad too big, I agree. Too many factions, mainly - I was scared of the Eclipse in HZD, but in HFW the Rebels PLUS the Sons of Prometheus being there kinda led to the writing underserving both, especially Regalla as a major antagonist. I really enjoyed Burning Shores as well. Excited and curious about Part 3!
Ive long held the belief that Horizon is exploring the burden of power, but to frame it as knowledge is so eye opening and makes everything so clearly discussable. I loved this essay. Can't wait for more.
As a fan of both games, I must say you've hit the target with this incredible analysis of the characters and the story. The themes/schemes you unveil should lead even non-players of this game over to the series. Brilliant work and a great case study of the motivations of the main characters past and present of these games. Even the ability of Aloy to express her own wants and needs as well as sexuality is explored in the series, which adds to its depth and greatness. Thank you for taking the time and bringing fresh perspectives to this wonderful series.
It took some time but I watched all of it, you did a great job of concisely explaining what is really the central story dynamic of the games. I love content like this and I look forward to future content from you.
Thoroughly enjoyed this essay, first time I've come across your channel and now I'm a subscriber. Would really like to see an essay on the Mass Effect world ...
Great video! Love seeing smaller content creators really put effort into their work. Something to thrown in, that Burning Shores final boss fight against the Horus made the absolute ridiculousness of far zeniths tolerable 😂
Thank you!! I won't lie, I was struggling with the camera in that fight and there was a lot of swearing, but it was an amazing thing to finally see one of those things in motion. The scale!! Woof.
@@grumble yea I wish they would bring out more scale in the games. I feel like that’s the biggest thing missing and they have great opportunities to do so. That and make Aloy shut up and stop making quips and jokes. She isn’t Spider-Man 😂🤦🏽♂️
I enjoyed your essay immensely! I'm fascinated about the fabric woven of morals and ways of thinking, and especially curious about the makings of scientific humanists. (I think that Aloy exemplifies the affirmations of scientific humanism.) Those interested in thinking styles will appreciate Horizon's illustration of the differences between flexible and rigid thinking styles. I'm happy to see that flexible thinking (freethought) melded with empathy is shown as morally responsible and that rigid (authoritarian) thinking & low-level empathy is shown as morally deplorable. Aloy is raised and learns from the wild (through Rost, the survivor-hunter) how to be flexible and resilient in mind as well as body. She becomes all too aware of how the Nora's rigid way of thinking has led them (with a few exceptions) to shun her. Her focus gives her understandings (a grounding) that shows Nora beliefs to be naive (and harsh unto brutal). Her ability to doubt, her scientific attitude (which seems almost innate) only gets stronger as she learns about Elisabet and as she interacts with Sylens, who has a scientific attitude but effectively lacks empathy. Thanks again for your essay!
I really enjoyed this. Horizon might be my favorite game of all time just for the setting, the lore, the story. And this dives deeper into some of the concepts that I knew about but didn't really grasp the various contrasts present.
This was so well made, great job! I had to pause a moment at the idea that Aloy could possibly consider herself one of Sobek's machines because I hadn't considered it before. Gonna be thinking about that one the rest of the day 😂 I'm happy to have stumbled across your channel and I'm looking forward to watching more!
Hi, I just happened to stumble across this video and I just wanted to say that it was wonderfully made, it really made reflect on the concept of knowledge as a hole, as well as make me love the horizon series even more than I already had, thank you for making this video, greetings from Chile, South America
Sylens didn't try to kill Aloy. He didn't know the Zeniths had Beta. He assumed they would capture her, not kill her, "thus removing you[Aloy] from the equation" in his own words. Love the video!! Great work!
Subscribed! Loved this vid so much. I'm an archivist, so I found the concept of the Apollo programme really rivetting when playing. It brought up so many fascinating questions about the efficacy of archival ethics when applied on a macro level.
Sylens never intended Aloy to be killed, he miscalculated, he did not know far zenith had made another clone so he figured they would find Aloy useful, therefore keeping her out of his way.
Bravo. A well articulated video with intriguing perspectives on the characters in the Horizon universe. The ethical angle in particular presents an exciting avenue that can be applied to the world of other games. I look forward to more of this. Hopefully, you will get to cover Burning Shores characters.
I've Never Played "HORIZON", But After Watching CutScenes & GamePlayFootage of "ZeroDawn" & "TheBurningShores"... When "HORIZON-3" Debuts, I Think I'm Finally Gonna Purchase a "NextGen" Console!
& I Don't Know How Customizable Aloy's FacePaint Is, But I'd Rock Rost's 3 BlueStripes on TheRightSide of Aloy's Face, & KRATOS' God of War RedStripe, on Aloy's LeftSide.😜
In Zero Dawn, facepaints were only available after completing the game twice over (NG+). In Forbidden West players can customise them by default, I reckon that's something they'll carry over into the next one :)
Excellent summary and analysis! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It would be really exciting to learn how Apollo would be built today. A kind of Wikipedia? What is true, what is false, what is important or unimportant. That they chose a Muslim woman as alpha has its reasons. Not only because the game relies heavily on openness and diversity (which is wonderful), but also because the Middle East is the cradle of modern civilization (think Babylon, for example). Mankind has never had such easy access to knowledge as it does today, but we are all the more riddled with opinions, manipulations and religious turmoil, and are less and less guided by facts or scientific evidence. Although we are all downright dependent on technology, we are dangerously indifferent to its fundamental scientific basics. Is our knowledge and cultural achievements sufficient to actually save a new generation of people from repeating our mistakes? In Horizon, humanity makes pretty much the same mistakes again (esotericism and religions, wars, power and megalomania) even without Apollo. Would this also have happened with Apollo or would some people of the first generations have used the knowledge at the end again for their own purposes and shielded the following generation from the knowledge? As just with the Quen also. It is an incredibly exciting thought construct. There are thousands of end time scenarios, the special thing about the lore of Horizon is not that robots conquer the world and overthrow humanity, it is primarily the inevitable which is so fascinating. In Terminator there is the possibility of time travel, the battle of the machines is not lost. In most scenarios it is not. In Horizon there was no chance for the "ancients". "We can't stop life from ending. But if you will help me - help GAIA - we can give it a future." All efforts are only directed to let life return again someday. They could have just let it end. But they didn't. And so, in Enduring Victory, all of humanity sacrifices itself without really knowing that there will never be salvation for them - or for their families or any human on the planet. The data points and audio recordings of the people trying to hold off the swarm as long as possible go to your heart. The scientists trying to create a fully automated terraforming system, knowing they will never see the results. How some are broken by the truth. How the world does blossom anew in the end and how humanity evolves anew - without Apollo. That's what makes this game series so fascinating. Yes, on top of that you get to shoot cool machines. But in the end, you feel for the people. So many things fit together so well. The little hints in Zero Dawn, which were already hinting at Forbidden West and also for the 3rd part there are some allusions to how Nemesis might be defeated. Maybe they went a bit far with the Far Zenith (I would have preferred clones instead of immortals and maybe less stereotypes), but it's still an outstanding story. And the end of all life on earth caused by uncontrolled machines just doing what they were built to do - no highly intelligent AI - just machines, not judging, not feeling, just doing their job. Yes, I can imagine that very well.
This easily earned my sub 🙏🏾😐. Fantastic job explaining this amazing story and Aloy as well. I feel most of the gaming community are a little unjust in their distaste for her and don’t seem to understand the grand scope and nature of Horizon and how the world affects it’s characters. Thank you 🙏🏾
Really impressed with the video. Kinda wish the CC were timed all the way(were semi unsynced half way, on the spectrum so I need to read and hear the verbal subject). I always wanted to see an in depth analysis of the text when everybody else just ignored jt. The narrative, characters and lore are such an eye opening experience that I did'nt think was possible in such a gorgeously fun game to fight robots and explore in. Glad I got invested in the series after my BOTW burnout, need to play Burning Shores. Like with souls games, you know something's good an immersive when you just wanna RP walk lol
Captions are fixed! I didn't realise youtube had borked the timings, sorry about that! I hope you enjoy Burning Shores, I thought it was a really nice extension to the main story :) Also, I never did play BOTW, and now with the sequel coming out, the prospect is even more daunting 😂🙈
@@grumble I might just go cloud watching in Burning Shores first lol. All the Horizon DLC's get me excited because they take what they did and learned to make it even better in the sequel(ala. Frozen Wilds, 1. Tall neck quest gave us more diverse tall neck puzzle solving for FW. 2. Expressive character animations and facial acting carried over to FW). Traversal seems alot more fun and vibrant, heck, they let you use the shield wing more. Hell yeah. I got burnt out on BOTW sadly due to playing normal mode AND master mode to completion. It's fine by itself and I'd recommend it when on sale, heck, I bought the Horizon games on sale too, 70 bucks new is just a hard ask even if its a great game. Coming back to Horizon was the best decision ever, I was a cranky culture war looney in the past who complained about the game and Aloy. So glad my mind turned around to adore this series.
@@AverageAspie Burning Shores is very, very pretty, so cloud watching will definitely pay off! I have only *heard* of Master Mode, and that does sound exhausting!!
Really great video and an even better analysis. One thing I am quite surprised by is that you didn't explore the relationship Utaru's had with knowledge, most importantly Zo. I think they had the most interesting one: they tried to worship what they couldn't understand, like many, but when the unknown became threatening, they simply resigned their lives, unlike others who tried to tame/understand or conquer. Zo, however, in a beautiful contrast, not only learns the technology but also still retains her religious valorisation of the machines, so much so that, she is offended at the suggestion that the God-machines can be replaced with other machines. Zo emerges as a 'unity of opposites', if you will, unifying the Spiritual with the Rational, and while many characters cannot help but fall to one end, she is able to harmonise the two and help and understand people on both ends.
Thanks! That's a wonderful way of describing the Utaru! I remember also being really struck by Zo's reaction to Varl suggesting they replace one of the landgods if they can't be fixed. I didn't include them because the Utaru - and the Nora's - conceptualisation of knowledge/machines/the Old World as religious would have broken the scope of the essay a bit, as I wanted to focus on knowledge and data as scientific achievement and heritage. Discussing religious analogies and symbolism in depth also lies way outside of my area of expertise, so I felt it best not to attempt a deeper dive.
Beautifully written and all around incredibly interesting questions raised, even for someone who’s only played an hour of the first game. (I’m commenting here also for the algorithm ❤)
I haven’t played the second game looking forward to it, but this is an amazing video you went into detail what this game is about perfectly. Thank you for this.
Great video, always fun to discover a new small channel with some amazing gems of content :) A few points tho I don’t think Sylence intended for Aloy to die at the hand of the Far Zeniths. He states directly that he wasn’t aware that they had another clone and thought the only logical thing for them to do was to capture her as a useful asset. He just wanted her out of the way of his schemes until he had dealt with the Zeniths, not necessarily dead. Another interesting thing to note is that we are never directly shown proof of Tilda’s death as nobody actually bothers to check. Considering everything I think it’s highly likely she’ll return in a future instalment.
Thank you! Ooh, do you think they left themselves a window for her to return? I would enjoy that! And true, we only see her hand and arm dangling out of the mech... Ah but wait - spoilers for Burning Shores if you haven't started it yet!! . . . . . . At the beginning of Burning Shores, Sylens and Aloy do say they counted the Zenith bodies during clean-up, which is how Sylens knew one was missing - that turned out to be Londra. So they would have pried Tilda out of that thing in the end and checked, I reckon?
@@grumble Ah, I didn’t know that yet as I haven’t played burning shores (the spoiler doesn’t bother me, it’s not something major). I do still hope we get to see more of her, she was a very fun character. But yeah it would make sense for them to confirm it in this context.
@@freek2004 It's a pity Tilda never uploaded herself to NEMESIS. Buuut what if she did make a copy and just never uploaded it? Probably won't happen given her aversion to the whole idea, but it's fun to think about.
it’s crazy how you spent 1 hour talking about the games, and yet it barely scratches the surface the entire horizon universe. you could honestly make it 3 hours long and i’d listen to the entire thing.
Absolutely, this is a tiny cross-section! There's so much to unpack across Horizon; I'm honestly in awe of how they kept track of so many moving parts. Not everything is always driven to its narrative conclusion, but overall it's astonishingly consistent.
@@grumble totally agree! the world building and the people are one of the best ever. it’s up there with arcane and avatar (the animation series) for me.
Very interesting take on the Horizon world, thank you! SPOILERS, obviously . . . . . . The single point I would have liked you to have expanded upon is the captivity of the new humans in All Mother Mountain. I can't imagine the torture they must've gone through with only the pre-teen schooling available way into their teenage years while "Mother" suppressed all intimacy between them and having none of it to give itself. No wonder they came out of that facility scarred for life and arguably generations. Once again, F Ted Faro, what a piece of work...
Thanks! I do have a lot of thoughts about the cradle facilities, but I was wary of the essay becoming too much about the Ethics of the wider Zero Dawn programme (and Elisabet herself), so that's why I didn't go further into that :)
little correction, Sylens did not intended to kill Alloy e wanted someone in their inner circle to spy on the far Zenets but he did not expect them to have a clone of their own.
Sylens did not deliberately try to kill/sacrifice Aloy at any point in either game, including with the Zenith ambush at the Hades Proving Lab. If you visit Sylens at the base right before the ending mission, he will disclose that he was actually unaware of Beta's existence at that time, and therefore assumed that the Zeniths would find Aloy "a useful asset", which would keep her "out of harm's way". Combine this with the fact that he planned to eventually kill the Zeniths himself (prior to that Aloy foiling that plan), one could reasonably conclude that he only intended on subjecting Aloy to temporary captivity, not death. Sure, he did still disregard the importance of Aloy's autonomy/free will, but that's a high bar given his established character & the circumstances lol. I think the above distinction is important because it ties into my bigger point - Sylens is subtly not a 100% cold utilitarian, and he was/became capable of sympathy & even compassion long before he turned back from that Zenith shuttle. You may remember that he apologizes to Aloy twice in the first game over his insensitive comments - once at the Zero Dawn facility and once again at GAIA Prime. He seems to have his own character arc and it's been developing for longer than most people probably realize. Although he is not very "good" at sympathy & compassion (for example the apologies were quite awkward lul). He is also insulting selective with who he entitles to that privilege - which is basically limited to people above a certain threshold of intellect/competence (i.e. just Aloy so far). Sylens is one of my biggest sources of lasting interest in the franchise. He is such an interesting character, and still clouded in unaddressed mysteries. On one hand he is brazenly provocative with his insensitivity & disregard of others, but on the other hand the fact that he managed to acquire his level of intellect deserves admiration considering that unlike Aloy he was born a normal tribal and (presumably) did not acquire a Focus until he became an adult. I would love a DLC on the background of Sylens, but I can only understand if they decided it's too late for that now... RIP Lance Reddick.
I do remember that apology and I do mention him coming to save Aloy from the Sun Ring! And like I said, him staying is a huge indication that he's coming around to Aloy's perspective of people and Earth being worth saving :)
@@grumble Indeed. He also appeared in Burning Shores with limited screentime but I think it was nevertheless interesting (especially the last scene which you included in the video I think). Guerrilla is in a tough spot now - recasting will be difficult but so will somehow nudging this character out of the game (considering he is wedged deep into the plot).
An absolute banger of an essay! I'm so glad UA-cam recommended this video to me. It's incredibly insightful -yet concise- and I'm yelling at a ton of people to watch it. :D Honestly, I think Aloy should be challenged more in-universe concerning her views towards religion. I can completely understand where she's coming from, and I'm an atheist too, but I feel that others should be more willing to challenge her about her dismissal of religion given its role in their lives. It's probably something that can really only happen post-Forbidden West since it takes the plot of that game and the Burning Shores DLC for her to grow past a lot of things, but it'd be nice to see in Horizon 3 (plus more kissing, but that's a topic for another video :v).
Thank you!! :D I think this is definitely an area where Aloy might gain some more perspective in the third game *if* the world opens up a bit more? Especially if yet more tribes are introduced, but of course that is a huge expansion of scope. I'm curious whether Aloy will return to Meridian and the Sacred Lands, considering how badly she wanted to get away in HFW. You're right though, so far, her attitude has definitely been very "But this is science, not magic!" And yeah, it is, but if Aloy does manage to stabilise things and more tribes want to learn about the old tech, it's more likely (and practical) for those concepts to merge in how people understand and make sense of it. (I love Seyka so much!! I hope she makes a return, regardless of how her and Aloy's relationship pans out.)
@@grumble Seyka *is* great! Even them being friends would be amazing (though, ideally, we'd have her as one of a few well-written in-depth romance options, but that all depends on budgets). I think a return to the Nora Sacred Lands would be pretty interesting, especially since it'd let the writers explore how Aloy's perspective of... everything has evolved post-Forbidden West, though it'd probably be too much to cover in a plot where she also has to figure out a way to stop an evil AI. I half-suspect that Horizon 3 will be a globe-trotting story where Aloy and co bounce between numerous parts of the world facilitated by some Far Zenith machine, so I don't know how likely it is that they'd go hard on her views towards religion. I'd personally love it if they could combine the two elements (especially if they introduced a new tribe that worshiped the wrecks of Horuses but lacked knowledge of their actual origins), but it'd be a pretty big challenge.
@@Kade514 Yeah, it all comes down to how much time (and cash) they can throw at the next one! To be fair if push comes to shove, I'm happier with something more contained but well fleshed out. Same with the romance options: now that Aloy has had her first crush (which just drives home how *young* she still is, gosh), I wonder if that's the lead-in to more choices in that vein in Horizon 3. But whether it's left to player choice entirely or not, I'm so stoked for Aloy being very very gay about (hopefully) meeting more buff ladies :3c
@@grumble Pretty much, yeah. Guerilla are a first party studio and seem to be one of Sony's flagship ones, but I doubt even they could get enough cash and time to do everything they could with the Horizon setting and characters. As for what they could do with romance and stuff, I reckon that Burning Shores was partly them testing the water in regards to Aloy kissing people in general and girls in particular, and things like boat travel in coastal areas (like, say, some kind of great delta inhabited by an imperial power). We'll have to see, but if they do add in the ability to choose if Aloy romances anyone in Horizon 3, I suspect the stress of picking will destroy me. :v Also, yeah, she's like 20 at most by the end of Burning Shores, and I'm very much in the same frame of mind as that Brooklyn 99 meme with the puppy.
@@Kade514 djdhdjdj same!! If anything happens to this girl.... I know that lots of people also enjoyed Aloy's acearo vibes, so if they do add romance choices, I hope they take that potential into account. Otherwise so far they've not been much for branching narratives, so I'm curious how deep they'd go into it. Romance options do lend themselves pretty well to self-contained vignettes, so perhaps it's on the cards!
Zeniths literally survived an apocalypse and didnt learned from it. They just want to repeat their mistakes, Tilda is the best example of this. Literally trying to take Aloy so she can get a second chance with Elizabeth. XD
The Zeniths overall are VERY short-sighted, yeah :D Tilda trying to convince Aloy at the end did break my heart a little bit. Those thousand years of overthinking did NOT help.
There still isn’t a game as beautiful as forbidden west. Like wow. Dialogue sequences with random npcs look better than story cutscenes in other AAA games.
I disagree about Sylens. I personally don't believe he wanted Aloy dead, just out of the way so not to interfere with his plans as he knew that she would not want to put people's lives in danger. Being a clone, he assumed that they would keep her, hold her captive perhaps. He wasn't to know that they had their own clone and therefore no need for Aloy. I am also guessing that he was not worried about her safety as he knows that she is very capable. Great video. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts.
@grumble I've always thought that he has a deep respect for her in his own way, and maybe even she is the 1st person he has ever come close to caring for, again in his own way. Their interaction at the end of the Burning Shores DLC was so sweet! He didn't have to say anything, but he did, which leads me to believe that he does, in fact, care, even if a little! 😁 And yes! F Ted! 🤣
The feeling I got from Faro is, even though he didn't say it, is he erased human knowledge so they wouldn't know it was his fault that the human race was annihilated, not so they wouldn't be "tainted" by previous knowledge, which makes him an even worse person. Edit: you brought up this exact point 😅 I think the one slight stumble forbidden west had was it really quickly brushed over Faro with him being off screen and his death being quick and relatively light, considering that he is THE big bad of the entire series.
I think it's both, considering that he wanted to make himself immortal to be around when the younglings hatched. Like, of course for them to trust him he has to erase any trace of his mistakes leading to Zero Dawn, but he also has to take everything else from them so they have to rely solely on him for knowledge and history. In his view, APOLLO contained not just evidence of his screw-up, but anti-capitalist sentiment as a whole that might lead the new humans to view him critically. That's what "tainted" means, to him. Of course, he dresses it up as saving them from repeating past mistakes, etc., but that's my interpretation of the subtext there. I see your point with how quickly the episode in Thebes is over. I'm currently streaming the game on twitch and chat has speculated that maybe we'll see more of him again in Part 3. I'd be okay with that; on the other hand having him one and done with felt satisfying because I really didn't expect him to have more to say. We know what he did in the past, and to keep making him relevant would be to assign him more importance than he deserves in the present and future. At least that's how I feel about it. I did absolutely anticipate a Resident Evil style bossfight while approaching that door though 😂 That would've slapped, to be fair. PS. Thank you for adding to your comment; you wouldn't believe how many replies I've had from people reflexively trying to correct me before finishing the Faro section of the video, and then just leaving that there 😆
Ah,left hand of darkness ah? I like how an AI like gaia always makes me think of minerva the AI of Heinlein,that becomes human.. Lazarus long is like a Zenith,because the book is about the knowledge of the memories of a man with thousands of years.
Incredible work. Horizon is such an amazing deep, and multi-faceted series, Aloy especially so. I love when other people can appreciate this. This video and your analysis just helps solidify why this is my all time favorite series. And why Aloy tops my game protagonist list. Such a well written and endearing character.
This was an amazing essay! Made me think about these games in a way that I hadn't up to this point. Thank you for your insight! F*ck Ted Faro. One point though, Colorado isn't considered to be in the "mid-western US," we consider it part of "the west", but that's semantics lol
Hi again, I’ve just re-listened to your very thought provoking essay. Why did Sylens stay? I think there might be a clue in his last recorded “companion” datapoint. What do you think. I still think he is seeing everything like a chess board, Aloy (or Beta??) are still IMHO a means to his end
I think it's a mix of the two? I haven't gone looking for that datapoint yet, so I don't know what he says there, but he was swayed into staying by watching Aloy being surrounded by the team. And this may indicate that he's like, "Hey, strength in numbers and more people to manoeuvre around." I do think there's still something he's not telling Aloy, whether to do with NEMESIS or beyond that, and maybe he views Beta being there as having an heir and a spare. But I do believe that part of his character development is ending up with a bit of a soft spot for Aloy, and maybe the others.
I don't think Sylens was trying to kill Aloy in Forbidden West. He even says she should surrender, he assumes they'll never kill a clone of Elisabeth because that's too valuable and seems to have no idea that they have their own clone of Elisabeth at that point in time. Which makes sense, because Sylens gets his informations from Hades, and Hades doesn't know about Beta. She wasn't even born when the transmission was sent. It's a small tidbit and he knew this was a dangerous gamble so it doesn't change your greater points about him anyway, but I figure I'd point it out although I probably wasn't the only one to do so.
I loved this, I also would love to see your thoughts on the Burning Shores and how it handles knowledge and ethics. SPOILERS: . . . e.g. Aloy choosing to tell those Quen the truth about Londra, telling Seyka about Nemesis, and the aerial captures that have a soldier discover the truth about Zero Dawn and come to the realisation that Operation Enduring Victory is a necessary lie for Zero Dawnto succeed. (If I got anything wrong, please correct me! I didn't actually get to play it myself, only watched playthroughs).
Thanks! I think if I make a follow-up to this video, it'll be a tie-in when the third game comes out? Which will be a while, but at this point I don't feel it'd add much to the analysis to talk more about the Quen before we know how the consequences of these choices and discoveries Aloy made actually pan out.
great video! its indeed a very interesting topic. Aloy has two modes regarding info, one as you said where she explains in terms the others can understand, showing a great deal of empathy (Sylens, for example, does not do this) but she is also deeply wounded by religious beliefs, it was the thing that made her entire life an injustice, and you can see her tone of voice change when it comes to the chat, getting sarcastic and sometimes angry (telling Gruda(Greta?) the old outcast Lady that it isn't all mother bringing food its her, or telling Varl that ''THERE IS NO GODDESS, VARL'' at the start of FW when she is on the brink of desperation) She gets impatient, many times, because she can tell its a thing that makes ppl not look for true answers, and as we know, she is curious, at her core. ''Don't you ever wonder how they lived, how their cities looked like?'' Aloy was deprived of information for 18 years. She had one goal. To pass the proving to get answers, and she did and there were no answers. She just wanted a family and she got a task instead, like you said, for a while there she believed she was a tool, in fact, its the end of FW and i'm still unsure if she understands that she does not deserve to die for the task at hand; she just understood what family is, what different kinds of love feel like, she just managed to make the separation between her persona and Sobek. But i'm going off rail. Aloy was denied information her whole life, and now, instead of hiding it, she shares it willingly (and even the she worries on how the truth will affect the people that sees it, because its world shattering, really, and she isn't the most eloquent and tactful person, but we can see she worries)
Honestly! Amazing amazing work! UA-cam truly us a bloodthirsty organisation. How does this channel not get recognition, but those silly fortnite jumping shit gets millions
I really always just took Ted’s Apollo purge as his ultimate act of cowardice. I don’t think that he actually believes that history is doomed to repeat, he is just so egotistical that he doesn’t want the future world to know what he was responsible for. When you add in the fact that he intended to effectively live forever - he wanted to be worshiped as a god by future generations because of his pathetic little ego - it solidifies the act as solely selfish to me. His ramblings to himself are just him trying to justify killing the Alphas in his own mind.
That's a good point! I took Faßbach's comments about techno-nihilism to mean that Ted did believe it and it was at least one of the reasons why he wanted to make himself the guru - not *just* to prevent the new humans from finding out, not *just* to finally attain the role of saviour he was denied by Sobeck because she didn't give him a more active role (despite his backseating). I think in a twisted way, he wanted to finally prove himself and get over the guilt; only we know inevitably his ego would get in the way.
The Midwest is poorly named, because it's actually the mid-east of the US. The Midwest is the flat area between the Appalachian and Rocky mountain ranges. Horizon Zero Dawn is west of the Midwest, in the Rockies themselves, and in the American Southwest
TBH I cried when it was revealed what ted did to Apollo and viewed it as his greatest crime. Not only did he condemn the world, but he prevented people from living on in future memories. I do wish the game has more of a CRT mindset. there is so much to be said about Ted taking his lesson from military technological advancements, interpreting it as "all knowledge bad" then forcing that interpretation on everyone else. I also wish they were more critical of Alloy going around with a white savior mindset to the point of being disrespectful to people's cultures and customs. I know the ending lesson makes up for it, but it's never explicitly pointed out why she is wrong for that.
APOLLO's loss is devastating :( I have a lot of feelings about it, especially when I made the connection with The Left Hand of Darkness. That's a good observation re: Aloy steamrolling everyone, yeah. I didn't have time to play Frozen Wilds myself, so I watched a playthrough, and I was very perplexed when Aloy wrestled control from the Chief, even with the support of his sister. I think they eased off on that a little in Forbidden West, with Zo and several others in the Utaru tribe pushing for change, but the impression remains. Imagine if Aloy had tried going head-to-head with Hekarro like that 😬
LOL 🙄 CRT and it’s adjacent concepts are utter garbage… your life, or any POCs life is in their hands. We all have the exact same opportunities - what people do with those is their decision and destiny. Get over it!
@@nigelstirzaker1232 I'm gonna go and put a Euro in the Ludonarrative Dissonance jar here - yeah, I suppose, but that's video games with rootin tootin arrow shootin 😅
Chapters!
00:00 - Opening
02:07 - Introduction pt 1
02:58 - Plot summary
09:21 - Introduction pt 2
12:39 - APOLLO
21:06 - Ted Faro
25:59 - Sylens
31:49 - Far Zenith
36:19 - The Quen
46:11 - Aloy
55:20 - Closing
Ted Faro's Thebes mission was eerie. Like I felt like I was the doctor in that situation. What a crazy turn of events.
Even after exploring a dozen cauldrons and GAIA facilities, going down into that bunker was the most unsettled I'd felt in a while, playing Forbidden West; I thought the same thing, like, 'I've SEEN this episode of DW.' I would never have guessed *that* to be what Aloy would find in there, at the same time I couldn't really muster up a lot of surprise at Ted's BS lol
Ted Faro quite literally and knowingly slaughtered billions of ppl, all animals and plants on the earth and underwater. Yet still had the nerve to try to live forever. What a turd of a human😡 If i had been Elizabet, i would not have been able to resist throat punching him😂😂😂
I absolutely love how absurd the Zeiniths are
That is 100% the best way to describe them! Like, what Ted Faro's made of himself is grotesque and bizarre, for all that we don't even see it, but you're right, the Zeniths are just. Absurd. Menacingly silly. What an opponent to have.
@grumble And getting to bap em all is hope punk as hell. I think the staff, talent, and production being Dutch might have been an socio-narrative factor too
@@AverageAspie Aye! I was swearing like a sailor during the boss fight in Burning Shores, ngl, but serving That Guy his comeuppance did feel good.
It honestly makes sense too! Billionaires are inherently selfish (how else do you get that rich?) and have huge impacts/footprints on the earth. They see themselves differently to the rest - the Zeniths are technologically advanced, immortal, 1000 year old versions of those billionaires who left earth without sharing the possibility of a future. They were always going to be irredeemable, absurd people
I absolutely love this series. I just finished forbidden west and Burnning shores on ultra hard.
This was an absolute masterpiece of a video. Always so glad to find people who understand and appreciate the depth of Horizon. LOVED this video, thank you for it 💚
Assassins Creed broke me too. This video rebuilt me. :-)
Thank you! Very glad to hear you enjoyed it 🏹
Glad I could help :D
Didn't expect to see you here :)
Me too!!!!
I love the entire essay! I didn't even notice that an hour has even passed.
There is one thing I'd like to add however. Given that Zero Dawn was racing against the clock, how many cultures, their values, traditions and stories made it into the final version of Apollo? How many managed to be coded into APOLLO, and subsequently GAIA, and how many did not make it? I firmly believe that Apollo was the one that would be extensively worked on after Zero Dawn was launched, with the Alphas working their remaining days towards adding in more knowledge into it and rewording anything that was adding in vaguely due to time.
It's why I consider Ted killing the Alphas his single greatest crime against Humanity. A purged Apollo can be salvaged by the Alphas given that it would be their single most important project with everything else completed, but with the Alphas killed. While the Apollo database in the Oddysey might be able to help, it is however, a prototype and lacked everything that was added after the ship's escape nor anything that could be added after Zero Dawn was launched. Who knows how many cultures remained after Ted's folly and who knows how many remain to be accessed within the Oddysey.
Thank you!
And I absolutely agree, finding out that Faro purged APOLLO - and *how* he did it - was devastating to me as I played it. Like I said, it was triage, and so much was lost in addition to what they didn't get the chance to preserve.
I wonder if it's also a Watsonian explanation for how everyone speaks English? Like, the Doyle-ian is that the writers couldn't sleight-of-hand a universal translator like in Mass Effect, so everyone just understands the Quen and vice versa. There's different dialects though, surely, and it's noted that different tribes have their own scripts and glyphs in writing. I interpreted that as, everyone in the cradle facilities was raised in English, to ease universal understanding, and then through APOLLO they would have been meant to learn the regional languages, in order to preserve those cultures.
@@grumbleYou can actually find a datapoint in the base in FW that confirms this! Alva was wondering why everyone speaks the same language so she asked GAIA, who explained that the people in the cradle facilities were supposed to learn about all sorts of languages, but due to the purge of APOLLO that info was lost, so the system reverted to its default language
@@tallvenusian32 There you go! Thank you ☺️
@@grumble One thing that I always wanted an answer to regarding Apollo was 'what was their process for adding cultures?'. Did they provide an equal distribution of every single culture in the world? Did they accidentally recreated the divide between the Global North vs the Global South by prioritizing the Western world over everything else? Were entries regarding those cultures written or verified by an expert from that very culture or did they take whatever scraps they could throw it in and fix it later on?
Apollo itself is so interesting and so devastating of a loss. Not to mention there are possible ramifications as to what would've happened if Apollo wasn't purged. Will English be taught as a primary language over everything else? Would the Apollo team accidentally force the first reborn humans to learn English over say, French, Cantonese, German and other languages? It's honestly why I hated Ted ever since I saw that recording of him killing the Alphas and purging Apollo, because despite whatever he thinks he's doing, he essentially erased cultures from marginalized groups, their knowledge and their talents without any hesitation whatsoever as if they never even existed.
@@controbot2557 well said. I don’t think another game has given me such strong emotions before. The anger I felt for Ted was so real.
Aloy seeing herself as one of Gaia's machines is suuuuuuch a good point and helps to explain some of her more un-emotional, repressing instincts (though they have many causes). Thank you for this essay, it was an absolute treat! You capture the Horizon universe beautifully. Can't wait to see what's next!
Thank you!!
Having played both games to platinum ( aka big fan) I’.d always wanted to try and explain to others how deep the game is (and how brilliant the world and story Guerrilla have created is) but I’ve never had the language, a framework of the time (too busy playing). This video, your video essay is beyond outstanding. Thank you. I hope that Guerrilla themselves will promote it. Thank you.
Thank you so much, that's very kind!
I’ve had this video in my watch later playlist for so long. I finally found the energy to watch it. I am simply amazed by the quality of the content and the ideas explored. Horizon is such a smart and emotional game. Im so glad analyses like this video exist. Thank you for this.
Thank you!!
Great great video. There is one small thing i dont completely agree with though. I dont think Sylens wanted to kill Aloy in the proving lab. I beleive him whenhe said he didnt anticipate the Zeniths would have a clone of Elizabet. His initial plan was to have the Zeniths capture Aloy and have access to the Zeniths in some way. Atleast thats what i got when sylens explained himself. I dont think he wantec aloy dead, if it happenedoh well but he was trying to get a way in go the zeniths through Aloy i think. But i could be wrong too.
Thanks! Another commenter has raised this as well, and it's a fair point! I think, along with Aloy, I weighed the outcome more heavily than the intent there. Like you said, Sylens knew she might well get killed if she put up a fight - and, well, it's Aloy - and sent her into the trap anyway, completely unprepared. He does concede he needed her "out of the way," and for someone like Aloy, that kinda translates to dead lol. But I didn't represent his full original intent.
@@grumble On the contrary Sylens knew with 100 percent certainty that the Zeniths would NOT harm Aloy because she was the only key to the gene locked doors that the Zeniths absolutely needed access to. They would keep her prisoner and out of his hair (if he had any) while he enacted his plan. Plenty of time afterward to free her when their shields were down and he had gotten what he came for. He could never have imagined that the Zeniths would have their one Sobeck clone and instead see Aloy as an unwanted distraction. This chain of events to me shows rather Sylens arrogance and the pitfalls it presents rather than malevolence. He is used to being the master manipulator and seeing things far in advance planning for every contingency. But this shows that he is fallible and can’t see all ends. I’m also sure he wouldn’t have felt too bad if Aloy had been killed but would rather have been disappointed that he had made an oversight in his calculations. That’s kinda the guy he has been presented to be so far at least.
I think effectively handing Aloy over to Zenith was a multifaceted plan:
-put Aloy somewhere she can't interfere
-have Aloy prepositioned as an asset when he goes after FZ
-I would 100% bet that he was going to use spyware on Aloy's focus as an avenue for intelligence gathering and possibly cyberattack on FZ
There *ARE* a few differences between Elizabet and Aloy's choices that warrant examining them, I think. With Elizabet and ZD, there was no alternative. Defeating the Faro Plague was impossible, and the only reason Far Zenith managed to get off-world was because the Odyssey had been built decades beforehand. With no hope to fight and no hope to escape, the only option was to rebuild afterwards. While it may be a long shot, Aloy has a chance to stop Nemesis and save the world. Where Elizabet had no choice but to let people die, Aloy would be choosing to let millions die.
Second, terraforming a new planet is probably not even possible anymore. It took GAIA, with all of her subordinate functions, centuries of trial-and-error to craft a livable biosphere, and even now it's not perfect. GAIA doesn't have HEPHAESTUS to make new machines, no HADES to reset if things go sideways, and ARTEMIS, DEMETER, and ELUTHIA have been drained of their Phase 1 plant and animal stocks. Add in that the only person with anything close to resembling a proper education is a traumatized seventeen year old, and starting over on a new planet may be even harder than defeating Nemesis.
And third, while Sylens tried to make it seem like a noble cause, he wanted to leave for purely selfish reasons. Right up until the point he chose to stay, Sylens was little better than the Zeniths, running from the problem so he could pursue selfish goals while dressing it up as 'saving humanity'. And Ithink Aloy knows Sylens well enough to see through his smokescreen.
This was soooooo well made. I think you really hit the nail on the head as to how much this franchise values knowledge, and how different people with different morals handle knowledge, with Aloy truly being the only one willing to share knowledge with those who display a willingness to learn, though part of this also stems from Aloy developing a willingness and patience to teach, which is just as important. It certainly took a lot of convincing from people like Varl and Erend to have Aloy open up to them, and accept help from them without viewing them as people who would slow her down, having been previously burned by people who are far more closed-minded like the Nora, or as duplicitous as Sylens.
As much as Aloy views herself as Sobek's successor and humanity's savior, I think even Aloy was able to understand that Sobek isolated herself emotionally and formed no attachments because she didn't believe any of the people she may have cared for in the past were capable of assisting her, and so she poured herself into Zero Dawn. Aloy however, particularly in Forbidden West, learned the value of friendship (partly from seeing recordings of Sobek's isolation, but also from how Sylens chooses to isolate himself), and this is what will see her through in saving the world from Nemesis to secure the future Sobek always wanted, but was unable to complete.
I've often been frustrated by alloy's behavior towards others, but you actually explain her so well that I get it now, good job! I didn't plan on watching the whole, I was shcoked when I realized I had, at no point did i get bored or even realize how much time had passed
stumbled across this video by the UA-cam algorithm and and was very survives by this excellent and well taught essay , looking to forward to more of you vids. you did a great work
Did Sylens really plan on her death when he led her to the zeniths at Latopolis? I thought his assumption was that they would capture her but not kill her because they needed her genetic prints (missing the fact they have a Sobek clone).
iirc Aloy accuses him of accepting her death as one of the potential consequences of that encounter and he didn't deny it - presuming that they could have used the genetic prints of a dead body just as well as a live one, and considering that Sylens knows Aloy doesn't go down without a fight.
@@grumble True but he also did warn Aloy not to to fight the Zeniths. He told her that they would have no reason to harm her once they saw who she was i.e. a clone of Sobek. Under normal circumstances, this would have been enough of a reason for the Far Zeniths to keep her alive but under their control. It was a calculated risk , but one that would serve to keep Aloy out of Sylens way as he continued his machinations with the Tenakth civil war and prototyping of the Zenith shield breaker. This is where Sylens made his first genuine mistake in his usually airtight scheming.
While Sylens knew about Nemesis from Hades, he did not know about Beta nor did he know that Gerard would disaprove of keeping Aloy as a redundant key to other GAIA facilities.
His 2nd mistake of course was underestimating Aloy's persistence. She not only escaped the Zeniths once but did so multiple times and then proceeded to end the civil war and force Sylens to come to talks with her group if he wanted to make any headway on infiltrating the Zenith base.
@@alphabetparadox Fair points!
For a guy who likes to have contingencies for his contingencies, Sylens really goofed that up :D As you say, his plans are usually airtight. Though I'd say any plan that involved using an entire tribe as cannon fodder is doomed by the narrative, and not up to Sylens' usually more elegant standards. Desperate times, desperate measures...
On the specific subject is Sylens, have you read his last recording after he leaves the base in Burning Shores.
@@nigelstirzaker1232 mmh I've gone snooping a bit after getting back, but I'm not sure! I gotta have another look 👀
I do love the interactive items they added for all the companions to make the place more like home.
It's so satisfying to find an intelligent video that manages to capture and synthesize the depth of Horizon's story very well, as well as the depth and complexity of Aloy. Thanks for this essay.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have tried so many times (and failed just as many) to summarize and share the brilliance I perceive Horizon to be with friends. I’m so happy to have come across this video. Like so many others here in the comments I really appreciate how effectively you tell the story while also conveying the depth of it. I would easily have watched this video even if it went on for another hour.
Thank you so much, that's so kind!
RIP Lance Reddick😢 i hope your spirit flies to the stars!
Imagine living for a thousand years and witnessing 2 planet destructions just to die from a guy with bluegleam who is smart
This is hands down one of my favorite topics within the Horizon series and you handled it so completely and clearly. So glad this got recommended to me! I really look forward to watching whatever you make in the future!
Great topic! I am glad to find this video. HZD was very very important game for me.
The rage I felt when I realized what Faro Did led to long retrospective which helped me understand what for me means being human and Knowledge sharing as my core value.
24:40 I thought this part of the game was a bit too on the nose when I first played it (wow, capitalism is like cancer, how original 🙄), but I found myself appreciating it a lot more on my recent NG+ playthrough and especially after watching this section. The man who laid the groundwork for the rampant, malignant growth of the machine swarm ultimately became a giant blob of cancerous tissue himself. There’s a nice poetic irony in that.
Actually, speaking of the Thebes section, I saw a comment on a collection of combat themes that absolutely floored me and I want to signal boost their take. The commenter (credit to @FreemanicParacusia on the video "HFW Machine Battle Themes") pointed out that Faro had corrupters, the very machines that were actively ravaging the surface, placed essentially as decorations in his bunker. Machines that, if his namesake plague ever found its way into Thebes, would kill everyone in a heartbeat. It’s yet another example of his short-sighted egotism.
Oh yeah, seeing those Corrupters just sittin' pretty put a chill down my spine!
This kicks ass, Grumble 🎉 It's an absolutely fascinating and thorough examination, and I really appreciate how in-depth you went in giving important details to people who don't know the story. Awesome work!
Thank you Ria!! 🌿🪸 I'm so glad you enjoyed the analysis itself, and that I've achieved my goal of making it accessible 😊
Really great video. I do disagree with the notion that Sylens wanted Aloy killed by the Zeniths. He wanted her out of the way certainly. But he incorrectly assumed the Zeniths would use her, as he did not account for the existence of Beta.
I would also argue that by the end of Forbidden West, Aloy has already let go of the notion of following in Elisabet's footsteps. At the end, both Tilda and Sylens speak to Aloy as if she is "bound" to be like Elisabet. When Sylens asks her to board the shuttle with him, because that's what Elisabet would do in his estimation, Aloy says goodbye. Because she finally acknowledges to herself that she is not Elisabet and she can chart her own course as Aloy. She doesn't say it explicitly, but I think that's why two characters insist on comparing her to Elisabet only for Aloy to reject both arguments. She is Aloy, not Elisabet.
Thanks! Other commenters have brought this up as well, I think I just weighed the outcome more heavily, along Aloy's interpretation of it, than what Sylens' initial intent might have been; simply because he took Aloy's eventual death (when the Zeniths had no more use for her and if her escape failed) in stride.
@@grumble yeah fair enough. It's all still a testament of Sylens' ruthlessness in the end :)
@@danc1513 Aye, for sure. I still love him, though! Can't stay mad at him :D
Watched the first 5 minutes and I'm saving this for later so I can really sink some time into this video. Totally reeled me in!
Thank you!! Hope you enjoy the remaining 55 minutes as well ☺️
really glad this got recomended to me! The set-up to Horizon is, IMO just about as good a set up for a Sci-fi story/video game as you could get. Such an interesting concept... a new civilization build on the ashes of ours with ours serving as a mytological/religious foundation. To top it off they did a fantastic job with the characters and living world especially in HFW, even if the story faultered a bit (Burning Shores story was great though, if too short)
Al that said, your insight is great! Can't wait to see what you do next. Subscribed.
Thank you!!
HFW was maybe just a tad too big, I agree. Too many factions, mainly - I was scared of the Eclipse in HZD, but in HFW the Rebels PLUS the Sons of Prometheus being there kinda led to the writing underserving both, especially Regalla as a major antagonist. I really enjoyed Burning Shores as well. Excited and curious about Part 3!
This video is absolutely AMAZING the Horizon series is my favorite game series ever you did it SO MUCH JUSTICE
Ive long held the belief that Horizon is exploring the burden of power, but to frame it as knowledge is so eye opening and makes everything so clearly discussable. I loved this essay. Can't wait for more.
Thank you so much! :)
As a fan of both games, I must say you've hit the target with this incredible analysis of the characters and the story. The themes/schemes you unveil should lead even non-players of this game over to the series. Brilliant work and a great case study of the motivations of the main characters past and present of these games. Even the ability of Aloy to express her own wants and needs as well as sexuality is explored in the series, which adds to its depth and greatness. Thank you for taking the time and bringing fresh perspectives to this wonderful series.
Thank you! 😊
It took some time but I watched all of it, you did a great job of concisely explaining what is really the central story dynamic of the games. I love content like this and I look forward to future content from you.
Thank you so much!!
Thoroughly enjoyed this essay, first time I've come across your channel and now I'm a subscriber. Would really like to see an essay on the Mass Effect world ...
Great video! Love seeing smaller content creators really put effort into their work. Something to thrown in, that Burning Shores final boss fight against the Horus made the absolute ridiculousness of far zeniths tolerable 😂
Thank you!!
I won't lie, I was struggling with the camera in that fight and there was a lot of swearing, but it was an amazing thing to finally see one of those things in motion. The scale!! Woof.
@@grumble yea I wish they would bring out more scale in the games. I feel like that’s the biggest thing missing and they have great opportunities to do so. That and make Aloy shut up and stop making quips and jokes. She isn’t Spider-Man 😂🤦🏽♂️
I enjoyed your essay immensely! I'm fascinated about the fabric woven of morals and ways of thinking, and especially curious about the makings of scientific humanists. (I think that Aloy exemplifies the affirmations of scientific humanism.)
Those interested in thinking styles will appreciate Horizon's illustration of the differences between flexible and rigid thinking styles. I'm happy to see that flexible thinking (freethought) melded with empathy is shown as morally responsible and that rigid (authoritarian) thinking & low-level empathy is shown as morally deplorable. Aloy is raised and learns from the wild (through Rost, the survivor-hunter) how to be flexible and resilient in mind as well as body. She becomes all too aware of how the Nora's rigid way of thinking has led them (with a few exceptions) to shun her. Her focus gives her understandings (a grounding) that shows Nora beliefs to be naive (and harsh unto brutal). Her ability to doubt, her scientific attitude (which seems almost innate) only gets stronger as she learns about Elisabet and as she interacts with Sylens, who has a scientific attitude but effectively lacks empathy. Thanks again for your essay!
I really enjoyed this. Horizon might be my favorite game of all time just for the setting, the lore, the story. And this dives deeper into some of the concepts that I knew about but didn't really grasp the various contrasts present.
It's really excellent worldbuilding! I'm excited for what they do in the next part.
Thanks for commenting!
Wow just wow this video just wow! So well written out and detailed absolutely love it! You did such an amazing job with this! RIP LR
This was so well made, great job! I had to pause a moment at the idea that Aloy could possibly consider herself one of Sobek's machines because I hadn't considered it before. Gonna be thinking about that one the rest of the day 😂
I'm happy to have stumbled across your channel and I'm looking forward to watching more!
Never regretted playing both these games. The story is so out there and relatable to our time
RIP Lance.
This essay is fantastic! I am not the insightful commenter type, but love this and wanted to appreciate your work.
Thank you! 😊
Hi, I just happened to stumble across this video and I just wanted to say that it was wonderfully made, it really made reflect on the concept of knowledge as a hole, as well as make me love the horizon series even more than I already had, thank you for making this video, greetings from Chile, South America
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it 😊
Sylens didn't try to kill Aloy. He didn't know the Zeniths had Beta. He assumed they would capture her, not kill her, "thus removing you[Aloy] from the equation" in his own words.
Love the video!! Great work!
Subscribed! Loved this vid so much. I'm an archivist, so I found the concept of the Apollo programme really rivetting when playing. It brought up so many fascinating questions about the efficacy of archival ethics when applied on a macro level.
Thank you!
Yesss it's such a complex subject, I love thinking about it. (Not an archivist myself, so I'd love to hear your perspective!)
56:02 turned this on as background noise and ended up stopping everything I was doing to watch. Absolute beast 😩
Thank you 😅
literally cheered when you mentioned Ursula K Le Guin and Left Hand of Darkness lol
Wahey! 😄
Fantastic essay on one of my favorite game series and stories. You’ve got yourself a new subscriber.
Sylens never intended Aloy to be killed, he miscalculated, he did not know far zenith had made another clone so he figured they would find Aloy useful, therefore keeping her out of his way.
Other folks have brought this up previously -- I simply missed that aspect and weighed the outcome more strongly than his intent.
SUBSCRIBED!!!
Phenomenal work on this video.
Thank you so much! 😊
Bravo. A well articulated video with intriguing perspectives on the characters in the Horizon universe. The ethical angle in particular presents an exciting avenue that can be applied to the world of other games. I look forward to more of this. Hopefully, you will get to cover Burning Shores characters.
Thank you!
I would like to delve deeper into the Quen hierarchies now that we've met Compliance 👀
I've Never Played "HORIZON", But After Watching CutScenes & GamePlayFootage of "ZeroDawn" & "TheBurningShores"...
When "HORIZON-3" Debuts, I Think I'm Finally Gonna Purchase a "NextGen" Console!
& I Don't Know How Customizable Aloy's FacePaint Is, But I'd Rock Rost's 3 BlueStripes on TheRightSide of Aloy's Face, & KRATOS' God of War RedStripe, on Aloy's LeftSide.😜
In Zero Dawn, facepaints were only available after completing the game twice over (NG+). In Forbidden West players can customise them by default, I reckon that's something they'll carry over into the next one :)
That was so well done!!! I cant believe how quickly this hour passed????
Thank yooouuu 🩵
Beautiful essay for a beautiful game. thank you!
Excellent summary and analysis! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It would be really exciting to learn how Apollo would be built today. A kind of Wikipedia? What is true, what is false, what is important or unimportant. That they chose a Muslim woman as alpha has its reasons. Not only because the game relies heavily on openness and diversity (which is wonderful), but also because the Middle East is the cradle of modern civilization (think Babylon, for example). Mankind has never had such easy access to knowledge as it does today, but we are all the more riddled with opinions, manipulations and religious turmoil, and are less and less guided by facts or scientific evidence. Although we are all downright dependent on technology, we are dangerously indifferent to its fundamental scientific basics. Is our knowledge and cultural achievements sufficient to actually save a new generation of people from repeating our mistakes? In Horizon, humanity makes pretty much the same mistakes again (esotericism and religions, wars, power and megalomania) even without Apollo. Would this also have happened with Apollo or would some people of the first generations have used the knowledge at the end again for their own purposes and shielded the following generation from the knowledge? As just with the Quen also. It is an incredibly exciting thought construct.
There are thousands of end time scenarios, the special thing about the lore of Horizon is not that robots conquer the world and overthrow humanity, it is primarily the inevitable which is so fascinating. In Terminator there is the possibility of time travel, the battle of the machines is not lost. In most scenarios it is not. In Horizon there was no chance for the "ancients". "We can't stop life from ending. But if you will help me - help GAIA - we can give it a future." All efforts are only directed to let life return again someday. They could have just let it end. But they didn't. And so, in Enduring Victory, all of humanity sacrifices itself without really knowing that there will never be salvation for them - or for their families or any human on the planet. The data points and audio recordings of the people trying to hold off the swarm as long as possible go to your heart. The scientists trying to create a fully automated terraforming system, knowing they will never see the results. How some are broken by the truth. How the world does blossom anew in the end and how humanity evolves anew - without Apollo. That's what makes this game series so fascinating. Yes, on top of that you get to shoot cool machines. But in the end, you feel for the people. So many things fit together so well. The little hints in Zero Dawn, which were already hinting at Forbidden West and also for the 3rd part there are some allusions to how Nemesis might be defeated. Maybe they went a bit far with the Far Zenith (I would have preferred clones instead of immortals and maybe less stereotypes), but it's still an outstanding story. And the end of all life on earth caused by uncontrolled machines just doing what they were built to do - no highly intelligent AI - just machines, not judging, not feeling, just doing their job. Yes, I can imagine that very well.
Fantastic video! I haven't played either game, and this was so easy to follow.
Thank you! Mission accomplished ☺️
Ohhh! Started it, and loving it. I'm saving this for until I finished HFW.
Im having such a wonderful experience playing this game!
Yay, enjoy!!
This easily earned my sub 🙏🏾😐. Fantastic job explaining this amazing story and Aloy as well. I feel most of the gaming community are a little unjust in their distaste for her and don’t seem to understand the grand scope and nature of Horizon and how the world affects it’s characters. Thank you 🙏🏾
Thank you!! Glad to hear you enjoyed it, and thanks for the sub!!
Really impressed with the video. Kinda wish the CC were timed all the way(were semi unsynced half way, on the spectrum so I need to read and hear the verbal subject). I always wanted to see an in depth analysis of the text when everybody else just ignored jt.
The narrative, characters and lore are such an eye opening experience that I did'nt think was possible in such a gorgeously fun game to fight robots and explore in. Glad I got invested in the series after my BOTW burnout, need to play Burning Shores. Like with souls games, you know something's good an immersive when you just wanna RP walk lol
Thank you for letting me know, I'll have a look at the CC later and check the timings!
Captions are fixed! I didn't realise youtube had borked the timings, sorry about that! I hope you enjoy Burning Shores, I thought it was a really nice extension to the main story :)
Also, I never did play BOTW, and now with the sequel coming out, the prospect is even more daunting 😂🙈
@@grumble I might just go cloud watching in Burning Shores first lol. All the Horizon DLC's get me excited because they take what they did and learned to make it even better in the sequel(ala. Frozen Wilds, 1. Tall neck quest gave us more diverse tall neck puzzle solving for FW. 2. Expressive character animations and facial acting carried over to FW). Traversal seems alot more fun and vibrant, heck, they let you use the shield wing more.
Hell yeah. I got burnt out on BOTW sadly due to playing normal mode AND master mode to completion. It's fine by itself and I'd recommend it when on sale, heck, I bought the Horizon games on sale too, 70 bucks new is just a hard ask even if its a great game. Coming back to Horizon was the best decision ever, I was a cranky culture war looney in the past who complained about the game and Aloy. So glad my mind turned around to adore this series.
@@AverageAspie Burning Shores is very, very pretty, so cloud watching will definitely pay off!
I have only *heard* of Master Mode, and that does sound exhausting!!
INCREDIBLE! Thank you for writing this essay and making this video.
This video essay is fantastic. Cant wait to watch more of your stuff
Really great video and an even better analysis.
One thing I am quite surprised by is that you didn't explore the relationship Utaru's had with knowledge, most importantly Zo. I think they had the most interesting one: they tried to worship what they couldn't understand, like many, but when the unknown became threatening, they simply resigned their lives, unlike others who tried to tame/understand or conquer. Zo, however, in a beautiful contrast, not only learns the technology but also still retains her religious valorisation of the machines, so much so that, she is offended at the suggestion that the God-machines can be replaced with other machines.
Zo emerges as a 'unity of opposites', if you will, unifying the Spiritual with the Rational, and while many characters cannot help but fall to one end, she is able to harmonise the two and help and understand people on both ends.
Thanks!
That's a wonderful way of describing the Utaru! I remember also being really struck by Zo's reaction to Varl suggesting they replace one of the landgods if they can't be fixed.
I didn't include them because the Utaru - and the Nora's - conceptualisation of knowledge/machines/the Old World as religious would have broken the scope of the essay a bit, as I wanted to focus on knowledge and data as scientific achievement and heritage. Discussing religious analogies and symbolism in depth also lies way outside of my area of expertise, so I felt it best not to attempt a deeper dive.
Beautifully written and all around incredibly interesting questions raised, even for someone who’s only played an hour of the first game.
(I’m commenting here also for the algorithm ❤)
Thank yoooouuu! 💛
its criminal this isnt getting the attention it deserves
It is less than 24 hours old haha but thank you! If you can think of someone to share it with... 😇
@@grumble happy to help
I haven’t played the second game looking forward to it, but this is an amazing video you went into detail what this game is about perfectly. Thank you for this.
Thank you! Have fun exploring the Forbidden West! 🪸🐚
Great video, always fun to discover a new small channel with some amazing gems of content :)
A few points tho
I don’t think Sylence intended for Aloy to die at the hand of the Far Zeniths. He states directly that he wasn’t aware that they had another clone and thought the only logical thing for them to do was to capture her as a useful asset. He just wanted her out of the way of his schemes until he had dealt with the Zeniths, not necessarily dead.
Another interesting thing to note is that we are never directly shown proof of Tilda’s death as nobody actually bothers to check. Considering everything I think it’s highly likely she’ll return in a future instalment.
Thank you!
Ooh, do you think they left themselves a window for her to return? I would enjoy that! And true, we only see her hand and arm dangling out of the mech... Ah but wait - spoilers for Burning Shores if you haven't started it yet!!
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At the beginning of Burning Shores, Sylens and Aloy do say they counted the Zenith bodies during clean-up, which is how Sylens knew one was missing - that turned out to be Londra. So they would have pried Tilda out of that thing in the end and checked, I reckon?
@@grumble Ah, I didn’t know that yet as I haven’t played burning shores (the spoiler doesn’t bother me, it’s not something major). I do still hope we get to see more of her, she was a very fun character. But yeah it would make sense for them to confirm it in this context.
@@freek2004 It's a pity Tilda never uploaded herself to NEMESIS. Buuut what if she did make a copy and just never uploaded it? Probably won't happen given her aversion to the whole idea, but it's fun to think about.
This is great! Awesome work!! Super interesting
Thank you!
I know this video was publish ages ago, but i'm here in 2024 still playing BOTH games😂 Great video!
Thank you haha and same!! Just finished a replay of Zero Dawn and I'm now about a third through Forbidden West.
it’s crazy how you spent 1 hour talking about the games, and yet it barely scratches the surface the entire horizon universe. you could honestly make it 3 hours long and i’d listen to the entire thing.
Absolutely, this is a tiny cross-section! There's so much to unpack across Horizon; I'm honestly in awe of how they kept track of so many moving parts. Not everything is always driven to its narrative conclusion, but overall it's astonishingly consistent.
@@grumble totally agree! the world building and the people are one of the best ever. it’s up there with arcane and avatar (the animation series) for me.
I will keep this video in my liked video stash until I finally can play forbidden west and watch this video afterwards.
This is so well done! Keep it up!!!
Thank you!!
Very interesting take on the Horizon world, thank you!
SPOILERS, obviously
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The single point I would have liked you to have expanded upon is the captivity of the new humans in All Mother Mountain. I can't imagine the torture they must've gone through with only the pre-teen schooling available way into their teenage years while "Mother" suppressed all intimacy between them and having none of it to give itself. No wonder they came out of that facility scarred for life and arguably generations. Once again, F Ted Faro, what a piece of work...
Thanks! I do have a lot of thoughts about the cradle facilities, but I was wary of the essay becoming too much about the Ethics of the wider Zero Dawn programme (and Elisabet herself), so that's why I didn't go further into that :)
@@grumble sounds like another video 🙂
little correction, Sylens did not intended to kill Alloy e wanted someone in their inner circle to spy on the far Zenets but he did not expect them to have a clone of their own.
Other folks have brought this up previously -- I simply missed that aspect and weighed the outcome more strongly than his intent.
49:03 You forgot her other preferred method "when all else fails, poke it with a stick".
Very true 😂
Excellent video. This game has some of the richest lore you will find.
Sylens did not deliberately try to kill/sacrifice Aloy at any point in either game, including with the Zenith ambush at the Hades Proving Lab. If you visit Sylens at the base right before the ending mission, he will disclose that he was actually unaware of Beta's existence at that time, and therefore assumed that the Zeniths would find Aloy "a useful asset", which would keep her "out of harm's way". Combine this with the fact that he planned to eventually kill the Zeniths himself (prior to that Aloy foiling that plan), one could reasonably conclude that he only intended on subjecting Aloy to temporary captivity, not death. Sure, he did still disregard the importance of Aloy's autonomy/free will, but that's a high bar given his established character & the circumstances lol.
I think the above distinction is important because it ties into my bigger point - Sylens is subtly not a 100% cold utilitarian, and he was/became capable of sympathy & even compassion long before he turned back from that Zenith shuttle. You may remember that he apologizes to Aloy twice in the first game over his insensitive comments - once at the Zero Dawn facility and once again at GAIA Prime. He seems to have his own character arc and it's been developing for longer than most people probably realize.
Although he is not very "good" at sympathy & compassion (for example the apologies were quite awkward lul). He is also insulting selective with who he entitles to that privilege - which is basically limited to people above a certain threshold of intellect/competence (i.e. just Aloy so far).
Sylens is one of my biggest sources of lasting interest in the franchise. He is such an interesting character, and still clouded in unaddressed mysteries. On one hand he is brazenly provocative with his insensitivity & disregard of others, but on the other hand the fact that he managed to acquire his level of intellect deserves admiration considering that unlike Aloy he was born a normal tribal and (presumably) did not acquire a Focus until he became an adult.
I would love a DLC on the background of Sylens, but I can only understand if they decided it's too late for that now... RIP Lance Reddick.
I do remember that apology and I do mention him coming to save Aloy from the Sun Ring! And like I said, him staying is a huge indication that he's coming around to Aloy's perspective of people and Earth being worth saving :)
@@grumble Indeed. He also appeared in Burning Shores with limited screentime but I think it was nevertheless interesting (especially the last scene which you included in the video I think). Guerrilla is in a tough spot now - recasting will be difficult but so will somehow nudging this character out of the game (considering he is wedged deep into the plot).
I’ll never not be disturbed when seeing child Aloy with a bump it.
TIL what a bump it is 🤣
@@grumbleno stop, don’t, my age, it hurts 👴🏻
@@NagatoFan1 don't feel old, it's because I'm German 😅
An absolute banger of an essay! I'm so glad UA-cam recommended this video to me. It's incredibly insightful -yet concise- and I'm yelling at a ton of people to watch it. :D
Honestly, I think Aloy should be challenged more in-universe concerning her views towards religion. I can completely understand where she's coming from, and I'm an atheist too, but I feel that others should be more willing to challenge her about her dismissal of religion given its role in their lives. It's probably something that can really only happen post-Forbidden West since it takes the plot of that game and the Burning Shores DLC for her to grow past a lot of things, but it'd be nice to see in Horizon 3 (plus more kissing, but that's a topic for another video :v).
Thank you!! :D
I think this is definitely an area where Aloy might gain some more perspective in the third game *if* the world opens up a bit more? Especially if yet more tribes are introduced, but of course that is a huge expansion of scope. I'm curious whether Aloy will return to Meridian and the Sacred Lands, considering how badly she wanted to get away in HFW. You're right though, so far, her attitude has definitely been very "But this is science, not magic!" And yeah, it is, but if Aloy does manage to stabilise things and more tribes want to learn about the old tech, it's more likely (and practical) for those concepts to merge in how people understand and make sense of it.
(I love Seyka so much!! I hope she makes a return, regardless of how her and Aloy's relationship pans out.)
@@grumble Seyka *is* great! Even them being friends would be amazing (though, ideally, we'd have her as one of a few well-written in-depth romance options, but that all depends on budgets).
I think a return to the Nora Sacred Lands would be pretty interesting, especially since it'd let the writers explore how Aloy's perspective of... everything has evolved post-Forbidden West, though it'd probably be too much to cover in a plot where she also has to figure out a way to stop an evil AI. I half-suspect that Horizon 3 will be a globe-trotting story where Aloy and co bounce between numerous parts of the world facilitated by some Far Zenith machine, so I don't know how likely it is that they'd go hard on her views towards religion. I'd personally love it if they could combine the two elements (especially if they introduced a new tribe that worshiped the wrecks of Horuses but lacked knowledge of their actual origins), but it'd be a pretty big challenge.
@@Kade514 Yeah, it all comes down to how much time (and cash) they can throw at the next one! To be fair if push comes to shove, I'm happier with something more contained but well fleshed out.
Same with the romance options: now that Aloy has had her first crush (which just drives home how *young* she still is, gosh), I wonder if that's the lead-in to more choices in that vein in Horizon 3. But whether it's left to player choice entirely or not, I'm so stoked for Aloy being very very gay about (hopefully) meeting more buff ladies :3c
@@grumble Pretty much, yeah. Guerilla are a first party studio and seem to be one of Sony's flagship ones, but I doubt even they could get enough cash and time to do everything they could with the Horizon setting and characters.
As for what they could do with romance and stuff, I reckon that Burning Shores was partly them testing the water in regards to Aloy kissing people in general and girls in particular, and things like boat travel in coastal areas (like, say, some kind of great delta inhabited by an imperial power). We'll have to see, but if they do add in the ability to choose if Aloy romances anyone in Horizon 3, I suspect the stress of picking will destroy me. :v
Also, yeah, she's like 20 at most by the end of Burning Shores, and I'm very much in the same frame of mind as that Brooklyn 99 meme with the puppy.
@@Kade514 djdhdjdj same!! If anything happens to this girl....
I know that lots of people also enjoyed Aloy's acearo vibes, so if they do add romance choices, I hope they take that potential into account. Otherwise so far they've not been much for branching narratives, so I'm curious how deep they'd go into it. Romance options do lend themselves pretty well to self-contained vignettes, so perhaps it's on the cards!
Zeniths literally survived an apocalypse and didnt learned from it. They just want to repeat their mistakes, Tilda is the best example of this. Literally trying to take Aloy so she can get a second chance with Elizabeth. XD
The Zeniths overall are VERY short-sighted, yeah :D
Tilda trying to convince Aloy at the end did break my heart a little bit. Those thousand years of overthinking did NOT help.
Incredible video, Thank you ❤
There still isn’t a game as beautiful as forbidden west. Like wow. Dialogue sequences with random npcs look better than story cutscenes in other AAA games.
I really enjoyed this. Thanks.
I disagree about Sylens. I personally don't believe he wanted Aloy dead, just out of the way so not to interfere with his plans as he knew that she would not want to put people's lives in danger. Being a clone, he assumed that they would keep her, hold her captive perhaps. He wasn't to know that they had their own clone and therefore no need for Aloy. I am also guessing that he was not worried about her safety as he knows that she is very capable.
Great video. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts.
Other folks have brought this up as well -- I weighed the outcome more strongly than what he said in his defence, I think!
Thanks! :)
@grumble I've always thought that he has a deep respect for her in his own way, and maybe even she is the 1st person he has ever come close to caring for, again in his own way. Their interaction at the end of the Burning Shores DLC was so sweet! He didn't have to say anything, but he did, which leads me to believe that he does, in fact, care, even if a little! 😁
And yes! F Ted! 🤣
@@tarawhite24 He does, just a bit! When he told her at the beginning of Burning Shores to be careful - that LOOK when she teases him XD love that man
This was a great video!
Thank you! :)
How do you have this little subs, but have such a brilliant and wonderful video
Tell your friends! 😄 Thanks for commenting 😊
The feeling I got from Faro is, even though he didn't say it, is he erased human knowledge so they wouldn't know it was his fault that the human race was annihilated, not so they wouldn't be "tainted" by previous knowledge, which makes him an even worse person.
Edit: you brought up this exact point 😅
I think the one slight stumble forbidden west had was it really quickly brushed over Faro with him being off screen and his death being quick and relatively light, considering that he is THE big bad of the entire series.
I think it's both, considering that he wanted to make himself immortal to be around when the younglings hatched. Like, of course for them to trust him he has to erase any trace of his mistakes leading to Zero Dawn, but he also has to take everything else from them so they have to rely solely on him for knowledge and history. In his view, APOLLO contained not just evidence of his screw-up, but anti-capitalist sentiment as a whole that might lead the new humans to view him critically. That's what "tainted" means, to him. Of course, he dresses it up as saving them from repeating past mistakes, etc., but that's my interpretation of the subtext there.
I see your point with how quickly the episode in Thebes is over. I'm currently streaming the game on twitch and chat has speculated that maybe we'll see more of him again in Part 3. I'd be okay with that; on the other hand having him one and done with felt satisfying because I really didn't expect him to have more to say. We know what he did in the past, and to keep making him relevant would be to assign him more importance than he deserves in the present and future. At least that's how I feel about it. I did absolutely anticipate a Resident Evil style bossfight while approaching that door though 😂 That would've slapped, to be fair.
PS. Thank you for adding to your comment; you wouldn't believe how many replies I've had from people reflexively trying to correct me before finishing the Faro section of the video, and then just leaving that there 😆
Good summary you are going places
Thanks!
Ah,left hand of darkness ah? I like how an AI like gaia always makes me think of minerva the AI of Heinlein,that becomes human.. Lazarus long is like a Zenith,because the book is about the knowledge of the memories of a man with thousands of years.
Incredible work. Horizon is such an amazing deep, and multi-faceted series, Aloy especially so. I love when other people can appreciate this. This video and your analysis just helps solidify why this is my all time favorite series. And why Aloy tops my game protagonist list. Such a well written and endearing character.
I appreciate Horizon even more after this video.
Because.....of course I did!
This was so awesome!
A well spent hour 👍
I'm curious if Vast Silver will make an appearance in the sequel 😮
That would be so cool! I'd also love to be able to talk to CYAN again 👀
Thank you for the video. I enjoyed you thoughtful insight into the topic. This is my favorite game franchise. It is nice to see someone else's take.
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing.
Salud 🌞
Thank you!! Glad you enjoyed it ☺️
Damn, what a great video! Very interesting perspective to things. Loved it!
This was an amazing essay! Made me think about these games in a way that I hadn't up to this point. Thank you for your insight! F*ck Ted Faro.
One point though, Colorado isn't considered to be in the "mid-western US," we consider it part of "the west", but that's semantics lol
F*ck Ted Faro!
Ooh that's good to know, thank you! :D
Hi again, I’ve just re-listened to your very thought provoking essay. Why did Sylens stay? I think there might be a clue in his last recorded “companion” datapoint. What do you think. I still think he is seeing everything like a chess board, Aloy (or Beta??) are still IMHO a means to his end
I think it's a mix of the two? I haven't gone looking for that datapoint yet, so I don't know what he says there, but he was swayed into staying by watching Aloy being surrounded by the team. And this may indicate that he's like, "Hey, strength in numbers and more people to manoeuvre around." I do think there's still something he's not telling Aloy, whether to do with NEMESIS or beyond that, and maybe he views Beta being there as having an heir and a spare. But I do believe that part of his character development is ending up with a bit of a soft spot for Aloy, and maybe the others.
@@grumble let me know what you when youve found datapoint :)
I don't think Sylens was trying to kill Aloy in Forbidden West. He even says she should surrender, he assumes they'll never kill a clone of Elisabeth because that's too valuable and seems to have no idea that they have their own clone of Elisabeth at that point in time. Which makes sense, because Sylens gets his informations from Hades, and Hades doesn't know about Beta. She wasn't even born when the transmission was sent. It's a small tidbit and he knew this was a dangerous gamble so it doesn't change your greater points about him anyway, but I figure I'd point it out although I probably wasn't the only one to do so.
Have a browse in the comments, there've been a few conversations about this since the video came out :)
I loved this, I also would love to see your thoughts on the Burning Shores and how it handles knowledge and ethics. SPOILERS:
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.
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e.g. Aloy choosing to tell those Quen the truth about Londra, telling Seyka about Nemesis, and the aerial captures that have a soldier discover the truth about Zero Dawn and come to the realisation that Operation Enduring Victory is a necessary lie for Zero Dawnto succeed. (If I got anything wrong, please correct me! I didn't actually get to play it myself, only watched playthroughs).
Thanks!
I think if I make a follow-up to this video, it'll be a tie-in when the third game comes out? Which will be a while, but at this point I don't feel it'd add much to the analysis to talk more about the Quen before we know how the consequences of these choices and discoveries Aloy made actually pan out.
great video!
its indeed a very interesting topic.
Aloy has two modes regarding info, one as you said where she explains in terms the others can understand, showing a great deal of empathy (Sylens, for example, does not do this) but she is also deeply wounded by religious beliefs, it was the thing that made her entire life an injustice, and you can see her tone of voice change when it comes to the chat, getting sarcastic and sometimes angry (telling Gruda(Greta?) the old outcast Lady that it isn't all mother bringing food its her, or telling Varl that ''THERE IS NO GODDESS, VARL'' at the start of FW when she is on the brink of desperation) She gets impatient, many times, because she can tell its a thing that makes ppl not look for true answers, and as we know, she is curious, at her core. ''Don't you ever wonder how they lived, how their cities looked like?''
Aloy was deprived of information for 18 years. She had one goal. To pass the proving to get answers, and she did and there were no answers. She just wanted a family and she got a task instead, like you said, for a while there she believed she was a tool, in fact, its the end of FW and i'm still unsure if she understands that she does not deserve to die for the task at hand; she just understood what family is, what different kinds of love feel like, she just managed to make the separation between her persona and Sobek.
But i'm going off rail. Aloy was denied information her whole life, and now, instead of hiding it, she shares it willingly (and even the she worries on how the truth will affect the people that sees it, because its world shattering, really, and she isn't the most eloquent and tactful person, but we can see she worries)
Honestly! Amazing amazing work! UA-cam truly us a bloodthirsty organisation. How does this channel not get recognition, but those silly fortnite jumping shit gets millions
I really always just took Ted’s Apollo purge as his ultimate act of cowardice. I don’t think that he actually believes that history is doomed to repeat, he is just so egotistical that he doesn’t want the future world to know what he was responsible for.
When you add in the fact that he intended to effectively live forever - he wanted to be worshiped as a god by future generations because of his pathetic little ego - it solidifies the act as solely selfish to me. His ramblings to himself are just him trying to justify killing the Alphas in his own mind.
That's a good point! I took Faßbach's comments about techno-nihilism to mean that Ted did believe it and it was at least one of the reasons why he wanted to make himself the guru - not *just* to prevent the new humans from finding out, not *just* to finally attain the role of saviour he was denied by Sobeck because she didn't give him a more active role (despite his backseating). I think in a twisted way, he wanted to finally prove himself and get over the guilt; only we know inevitably his ego would get in the way.
The Midwest is poorly named, because it's actually the mid-east of the US. The Midwest is the flat area between the Appalachian and Rocky mountain ranges. Horizon Zero Dawn is west of the Midwest, in the Rockies themselves, and in the American Southwest
Good to know, thanks! :)
TBH I cried when it was revealed what ted did to Apollo and viewed it as his greatest crime. Not only did he condemn the world, but he prevented people from living on in future memories. I do wish the game has more of a CRT mindset. there is so much to be said about Ted taking his lesson from military technological advancements, interpreting it as "all knowledge bad" then forcing that interpretation on everyone else. I also wish they were more critical of Alloy going around with a white savior mindset to the point of being disrespectful to people's cultures and customs. I know the ending lesson makes up for it, but it's never explicitly pointed out why she is wrong for that.
APOLLO's loss is devastating :( I have a lot of feelings about it, especially when I made the connection with The Left Hand of Darkness.
That's a good observation re: Aloy steamrolling everyone, yeah. I didn't have time to play Frozen Wilds myself, so I watched a playthrough, and I was very perplexed when Aloy wrestled control from the Chief, even with the support of his sister. I think they eased off on that a little in Forbidden West, with Zo and several others in the Utaru tribe pushing for change, but the impression remains. Imagine if Aloy had tried going head-to-head with Hekarro like that 😬
LOL 🙄 CRT and it’s adjacent concepts are utter garbage… your life, or any POCs life is in their hands. We all have the exact same opportunities - what people do with those is their decision and destiny. Get over it!
@@grumble also Aloy has killed a lot of people, with no qualms or PTSD. I think Elizabet wouldn’t have been “happy” with this
@@nigelstirzaker1232 I'm gonna go and put a Euro in the Ludonarrative Dissonance jar here - yeah, I suppose, but that's video games with rootin tootin arrow shootin 😅
@@grumble rootin rooting arrow shooting lol