Colt 607: The First AR Carbine
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2023
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The Model 607 was Colt's first attempt at a carbine version of the AR-15 rifle, shortening both the barrel and stock. The action is identical to a standard AR, but the barrel is only 10 inches (254mm) long, and the stock uses a collapsing design unique to this model. Most examples used a small suppressor to reduce the very substantial concussion of such a short 5.56mm barrel down to more like that of a standard 20" rifle. Production of the Model 607 was limited to only about 50 units, and they included substantial variation in details. This example has a flat side receiver, 3.5 inch moderator, and 3-position selector. Some included burst options, either with or without a full auto setting.
Experience with the Model 607 (including limited experimental use with the SEALs in Vietnam) led to further development of the carbine concept. The barrel was lengthened to 11.5 inches and the stock redesigned to the modern style of telescoping stock we recognize today. These would become the Model 609/610, the Colt Commando or CAR-15.
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I heard if you put a double drum mag on it and remove the buttstock, it will have infinite ammo
What a thrill that would be
Perhaps, it'll illuminate the darkness and silence through the night
You must be ames!
SOME DAY YOU GO THROUGH THE RAIN. SOME DAY YOU FEED ON A TREE FROG.
You gotta climb up an extremely long ladder first to prove yourself, though
The size of the grip doesn’t matter, it’s how you use it that counts.
said every guy and no girl ever....
And he neither has size,nor technique^^@@ripvanwinkle2002
As long as the buffer is long enough, you'll control the recoil. (did that sound as dirty as it did to me, on reading my own comment?) 😮😮😮
My wife says that my grip is "fine" but I've seen the Magpul XLs online. 😢
@@Zavh382 😂😂😂
Colt engineer: We shortened the M16 to 11.5", but it wouldn't cycle and it was too loud, so we put a 4.5" moderator on the muzzle.
Regular person: So you made a 16" carbine.
Colt engineer: No we made an 11.5 with extra stuff.
Regular person: So why not make a better gun cheaper by chopping the barrel at 16"?
Colt engineer: I don't understand your question.
Colt engineer 30 years later: Check it out, guys! I just made this new 16" carbine.
I feel like these days 16" is the new rifle length while 12-10" is the carbine.
The "regular person" is just indoctrinated to the NFA. 16" is an arbitrary number. In fact, the moderator is actually originally 4.25" and civvie manufacturers lengthened it to meet NFA minimum length.
And pinned it, obviously.
Ballistically, 16" is probably better anyway. There's a reason the Army standardized on 14.5". Were there really any benefits to this 10.3" with 4.5" moderator anyway?
@@WetWiIIy yeah, the benefit was it was way shorter than the 20" rifles that were issued.
It looks like a M16A1 that just got out of the pool.
Made great time getting there though!
It was cold. There was... shrinkage.
@@grumpyboomer61 Significant?
It gets bigger. I swear!
@@tylerwilliams6022 Enough that the ATF would be interested.
My father, who death finally caught up to this last weekend, carried an XM177E1 during his tour in Vietnam in 1970 as an Army SF radioman (he sorta-dodged the draft by enlisting and picking the non-medical MOS with the longest training time to have the shortest time Over There, because he knew if he got drafted it'd just be 11B meatgrinder for who knows how long).
Smart father. I'm glad that he kept death at bay for so long! Sounds like he had a full life.
I'm so sorry for your loss, I thank him for his service, God bless you and him.
My dad did something similar. The day he got his draft papers he went down to the Air Force recruiter station and said that he had no problem serving his country, but he didn’t want to go into the army. So they signed him up that day and he served as part of a maintenance crew on a B-52 during Operation Chrome Dome.
I’m not here to speak ill of the dead, but the chances of your father being a Special Forces Communication Sergeant are highly unlikely. Despite what popular culture leads people to believe, there were only a couple hundred Green Berets there at any given time in Vietnam.
@@TheCrusher72 Well, he knows his father, you don't, so how do you know he wasn't?
Never knew fragility was a factor when they went from triangular to circular forends. Very cool.
It was pretty common for the edges of the vent slots on top to break off. Cracking of the handguard wasn't as common but it wasn't particularly rare. Neither usually rendered the weapon unusable but it wasn't ideal. Nevertheless, the triangle feels "right" to me to this day and I have it on my "nostalgia" build. If I were going to actually take it into battle, I'd prefer the A2 handguard, though.
The round handguards were a product improvement and around 1986, triangular guards were no longer available. This reduced parts count as no longer were there left and right.
Many M16 A1 had round handguards as the A2 wasn't in 100% of active duty Army until 1992.
Not going to lie I had to go do some research on the A2. Our rifles were A3s and now I understand the only difference was we had auto instead of burst on the selectors. The more you know.
@andrewgraham2546 A3s are essentially M16A2 uppers with M16A1 lower recievers, later it was changed to M16A4 uppers and M4a1 Lower recievers
Mini m16a1
I imagine some go fast guys carrying a couple of these, an AK, a Swedish K, and of course, a belt fed Stoner 63 into the jungle.
Or a S&W 76 instead of a Swedish K
It’s the original M4 carbine that’s functional, and not counting the failed Colt 605.
So... what happened between Colt 605 and 607?
@@zedbarrett9376606 😂
@@zedbarrett9376If I'm not mistaken it was the CAR-15 carbine variants tested in Vietnam. Heavy barreled bi-pod, heavy barreled belt fed, another with 3 round burst etc.
@zedbarrett9376 colt 606 is a HBAR version of the M16a1. Heavy barrel, bipod, otherwise looks and functions exactly like an A1
@@zedbarrett9376 There was the 605A and 605B which were just variants of the 15" 605. And then there was the 606, 606A, and 606B which were 20" heavy barreled versions of the M16 (which was the 603/604), also called the "CAR-15 Heavy Assault Rifle M1".
Ear plugs are good. I graduated from an old style military school. We had a locker room, assembly hall, cafeteria, and 22 rifle range in the basement. Strangely, or maybe not as that was the year EPA cracked down on indoor ranges, they built a new building in 1968 and my last day was the last day in that building. On that last day there was only one bullet hole in a locker. Anyway, I have had tinnitus ever since as ear plugs were not readily available for anything then!
I have a friend that is one of the "Dirty Thirty" who was in Vietnam very early. He was a pilot so he wore headphones while flying. I once asked him if he had any ear damage and he said he always hearing protection. I thought that was very interesting, because he lived with the Vietnamese most of his time.
I have been diagnosed "only" with tinnitus from the VA. Standing near 155mm, 8" and 175mm at fire bases firing at the enemy doesn't count. Squad of M16A2 firing from the bed of a dump truck. Nor incoming mortars and rockets did any other damage. I and very many combat veterans have special ears. We were probably chosen for those special abilities.
@@johnostambaugh8638 At that school I had a favorite teacher, who I had for a general “Science” class before Chemistry and Physics who also had a bad case of tinnitus. Many of the military school teachers in the 1960s were World War II or Korean war vets. He was a retired Air force Major. He had a 50 caliber Browning Machine Gun fired while he was very near the chamber presumably by accident as he was not the type to make enemies.
@@wowbagger3505 I had a blast shooting a whole belt with the M2 .50 BMG. I was reprimanded by our CO after telling him "It raised the moral of the whole base". No other penalties. The perimeter of the whole base fired with a domino effect. Nice view from my tower. Yeah, just tinnitus.
We need to get rid of the NFA so that correct clones of the 607 can be sold to the public
My dad saw some short barrel M16s in Vietnam but he said he never trusted them after seeing some malfunction. He always preferred the full length barrel. But some guys really thought they short barrels looked cool
What folks back then didn't realize is that you can't simply chop barrel length in an AR style rifle without making modifications to the operating system. Without a smaller gas port and heavier recoil spring and buffer, you get a rifle that is horribly overgassed, working at much higher gas pressures within the gas system, and timing of the loading cycle being messed up.
They had some teething issues but by '68ish the carbines had become pretty damn reliable, far beyond just "looking cool". MACV-SOG used them extensively and I assure you they weren't primarily interested in aesthetics.
Shooting 5.56 out of a barrel shorter than 18-20" is a huge compromise of performance. Now a 6.5G, .300blk, 10mm, .400 legend and I'm on board with as short as 12"-16".
@hendo337 While that is true, you also have to take into account what the purpose of a carbine is. A carbine is intended as a short range self defense weapon. Out to 200m, its performance is perfectly acceptable. If you expect to shoot farther than that, yes, get something with a bigger caliber or longer barrel.
I have a suspicion that the entire reason the US military switched from the M16 to the M4 was because they thought “short barrels look cool.”
“Terminal velocity? What’s that? I don’t care, look how cool my carbine looks! So what, I’m sacrificing effective range for a shorter barrel, it’s not like I’m ever going to war in mountainous country. Hey what’s that? A Mk 18? Look how short it’s barrel is! That’s so much cooler than my M4! Gimme one of those!”
I once knew a fellow who used this or a later version in Vietnam. He was a guard/K-9 handler at Da Nang Air Base. He said they were trained to use it as a submachine gun, shooting from the hip with one hand on top of the handguard to deal with muzzle climb. He also said that he had a larger magazine than what was typically issued at the time, so probably a 30-rounder. He told me that the initial idea was that this weapon could be used one-handed, allowing the guard to hold his dog's leash with the other hand, although I imagine that he would let the dog go and use both hands if he came under fire.
K-9 Handlers typically had 10” barreled XM177s in Vietnam once those became available, otherwise they carried M16s. There are photos showing this with US Army carrying XM177s, and USAF carrying 10” GAU-5/As (no forward assist).
@@LRRPFco52 The irony is that this fellow had been on the Air Force Rifle Team and was a very good shot. He was issued a submachinegun.
@@jfess1911 These carbines are every bit as accurate as rifles, but squirrely in the hands so harder to hold steady from some positions. I know some services referred to them as SMGs, but I really think SMGs require a pistol cartridge to fall into that category.
Owned one. Amnesty registered by a lieutenant general US Army. Apparently a bring back. Reed Knight has it now. It was much nicer that the one here.
If a Filipino sees this small AR-15, they would definitely call it a "Baby Armalite!"
This was a nickname they gave to Colt Model 653P.
Colt M653 = Colt M16A1 Carbine
Colt M607 = Colt M16 Carbine
I have 653 H&r I turned into a Gordon carbine
@paleoph168, yeah and we will call any M16 variant, modernzied or not as Armalite.
Some Filipinos call all ar 15 platforms Armalite. It’s like branding that’s just how they identify them
Ian: "I know some of you are going to want to see the insides"
Me: "that's literally why I'm here"
The 607 stock will always be the coolest collapsible stock, and one of the coolest carbines in general.
The takedown survival rifle variant is also pretty cool, but probably least ergonomic.
TFBTV / Hop just did a video talking about these. Great timing honestly cause I was curious about these.
HI Ian! Thank you for doing this video! I've been waiting for years for you to do this particular model! I actually know a guy in Houston who used one in Veitnam. He wrote a great book Titled "1968:Year of the Monkey", in which he writes about getting and using one in that war. He spoke quite fondly of it. He left it behind when he rotated out of the war, and gave it to a Veitnamese friend of his. AND regretted ever since. Anyway..thank you!
One of the few guns that, if I could get the stock, barrel and forend parts, would tempt me to pony up for the SBR paperwork.
There are a few people reproducing the stock assembly but they are very expensive.
@@johnmcdonald587I’m pretty sure they were discontinued a decade a go or more, and when they do pop up they go for 600-700 easy. If you know of another one, please let us know - the retro builders would love one.
There's a seller on GunBroker, MisterH348, offers a machining-required stock assembly. @@rustyshackleford792
@@rustyshackleford792
I believe they are now in limited production. They are still $700, but availability is less of an issue.
Cannot wait for Bud's Gun Shop to acquire one of these so that Hickock 45 may contort his Giant frame around this piece..... The gong may go awry....
Very short barrels with supersonic rounds cause 2 issues to be unreliable.
1) the extraction starts while the chamber has very high pressure forcing the brass cartridge to be pressed against chamber. Signs of this are seen as extraxtor deforming the rim of cartridge. It can cause extraction failure and damage to extractor.
2) The pressure drops too quickly before extraction is complete due to shorter distance between gas port and muzzle. This also causes failure to extract.
Just don't shoot super sonic from a short barrel.
It really reminds me of those cheap toys that popped up in the boy's isle right after the Gulf-war then reappeared every so often.
You're sneaking through the Mekong Delta on a night infiltration mission then out of the bushes pops an ATF agent "you got a tax stamp for that?"
ATF and Mekong Delta-a contradiction by itself!
@@AKguru762 Another gift from Nixon to the nation. Grrr...
You proceed to break his nose and teeth with the butt plate of your 607 for breaking the silent stalk protocol and hand sign to everyone following you to stop and drop low to take some time observing the surroundings.
@@AKguru762 No IRS where bullets fly either!
Are those Lvl IV plates?😏
Those slick/slab side receivers are the most aesthetic IMO
Haven't watched the entire video yet before heading to the comments, so not sure if it's addressed or not, but notice the lack of directional arrow on the carry handle? Notice the notched area (rather than rounded) near the charging handle area? Notice the recessed upper, how it mates up on the right side with the lines of the lower? This is in every way a Colt 601/602 upper receiver. In fact, the lower is damn near a 601/602. The only thing missing is the + used as the datum point during machining, and the Colt rollmarks/model designation.
4:05 There is a witness hole in the side of the stock. If the stock lock is off, you can see through that hole.
The mini handguard is adorable. For me, the triangular shape is more ergonomic and more aesthetically pleasing than a cylindrical handguard.
Ian, how about doing a segment on XM177E1s that were converted to a full. length A1 stock? Doing this gave it a heavier buffer weight which helped immensely with bolt bounce. Lots of photographic evidence out there.
The fixed stock look on a 10in is such a vibe,I love it
This thing SOOOO looks like an airsoft, it's cute.
@@kane357lynch Ever since I got out of the army, I can't even play paintball anymore, never played airsoft. At least if you double-tap in paintball the person WILL call the hit. Or take another double tap.
Airsoft guns are designed to be replicas of the originals. So by your logic every gun looks like an airsoft 🤦🏻♂️
@@Operator8282ya airsoft is 1-3 joules and paintball is 10 or more joules. I sure as HELL would call my hits;)
@@Ontheregzhere’s your cookie
@@Ontheregz Several of the guys in my company (mind you, this was back in the 90's-00's0 had these little, for want of a better term SD (super deformed), or chibi m16's made by the same company that made my rather realistic looking SIg P220. The above rifle reminds me of those. Just because all you have ever seen are the realistic ones doesn't mean that they all have to be made that way, or in fact are made that way.
Its really something that Stoner's design continues to be used today. Kalashnikov's, too.
Such a beautiful piece of AR history. I feel like Administrative Results would be drooling over this gun. Same with Hop.
I know admin he’s great. Who’s hop?
@@Imnotsurewhattoput798Hoplopfheil, another great guntuber. He also a regular contributor to TFB TV.
@@kutter_ttl6786 Oh him yeah I remember now sorry lol. Thanks for the explanation.
I always find early development history interesting, not as well versed in the the early carbine models before the CAR-15 so this was super informative to me.
Such a cute little thing
An interesting little gun. Thank you.
Always loved those stocks, a little over complicated but so unique.
This is the carbine my pistol mostly replicates. Love the style, very vibey as they say
I love that it's a baby AR in multiple senses.
Imagine filling out a tax stamp for what is effectively a slightly long flash hider
Ian can you make the video about the M16 evolution (from the M16, XM16E1, M16A1, A2, A3 and the A4). Especially the M16A1, best of them all.
Misacho has a few good videos on the AR evolution as well as the AK. Very knowledgeable guy.
In the beginning, Stoner created a stationary piston and the AR-10
And General Wyman said, Let it be light: and there was the AR-15
MX177 went to 'nam and I wonder why he didn't mention that. Colt did release a 16" carbine to the civi market in 1997 and it has a 1 to 10 twist that shot out pretty fast.
Thank you for the video, Ian! The AR is my absolute favorite platform and I love watching or reading anything about it's development. I think that it's absolutely obsurd that the ATF has classified the moderator as a suppressor requiring NFA registration.
When I was building up my XM177 clone my brain froze due to the multitude of variation in the early carbines. It came out mostly period correct to a 1968 air force model
In Fallout 4, DeadPool2099's Service Rifle mod can be set up to look like this piece here. Simply gorgeous!!
Video games are for gay-boys
Very cool piece and the earliest I have seen.
Always loved compact Carbines, this looks awesome.
So cool, and to see they were messing around with the stubby grip like on the 608, I imagine those two models were being worked on in very shortly after each other, some 607's probably had standard grips and others probably had the stubby one due to all the variations of ideas.
10 years ago I went to Vietnam and they have a shocking number of these in their museums.
Ian, I saw one that was chopped just forward of the receiver, and had what looked like a tennis ball launcher attached. Any clue what it is? I think I still have a picture of it somewhere.
Those are generally used for sending a line across a river crossing. Load a “tennis ball” attached to a spool of wire or rope and launch it where you need it.
That thing looks absolutely tiny on the table in front of him. It genuinely looks like a toy m16.
This is by far my favorite ar early guns. I built a replica a few years ago. The stock was by far the hardest thing to find. Obviously not very many people know what it is when you bring it out. Gets a lot of conversations started.
I have a picture of my grandfather in MACV-SOG somewhere in the bush and he's carrying one of these the carbines, while spending time and speaking with one of his surviving team members he said they constantly were getting new guns from Colt off the books on this platform to their requested specs.
Awesome!!! First time I've seen one of these other than in pix!!! Totally awesome!!!! Great video bro!!! And a great little shooter for it's day. The first stepping stone in the modern arm's we see today. 😊
That chopped pistol grip was ahead of its time , I see grips now made that short to use in cqb more effectively. Example reptilia cqg
I believe this is the “07 type car15 with sliding solid stock” referenced on page 158 of “Point Man” by author Chief James Watson. A navy seal who served in Vietnam.
Cool, glad that you covered this.
The carry handles will always look cooler than any flat top rail with red dot.
I was in the Army throughout the 80’s. I never saw one of these; however, my cousin was a tanker at the same time, and he and his crew were issued M3 Grease Guns. I knew some SF guys, and they were given AKs as well as their issued M16s, but I don’t know if they had these things.
Only 50 made…. Yeah that would probably be why I never saw this thing!
Definitely a huge Thank You to the owner for allowing Forgotten Weapons to review this M16 !!
The first truck gun! Very unique and cool. Thanks for the videos sir. Great work.
Peak aesthetic.
That is an absurdly cute little rifle. I want to make a little 'homage' to those early carbines with a spare KP-15 "Holy Lower" I have, but it's currently difficult to source the upper (with a deflector since I'm a lefty) and the shorty triangle handguards.
That stock is silly in its complexity, but also my favorite deviation from the M16. My jaw legitimately went slack for a moment when Ian extended what I had presumed was just a cut-down version of the standard design.
Thanks Ian for another awesome vid
My dad saw one of these while in the Nam. It's owner was a rear echelon officer that never went into the field. LOL
I'm not going to lie, when he pulled the bolt out my first thought was "shiny and chrome".
Have never seen that model very interesting thanks
I just imagine centuries from now historians looking back and reading accounts of the "AR" over the years like it has the status akin to that of Excalibur.
i love the collapsing stock's aestetics.
That’s got a square forge 602 upper as well. Rare to see those, I sold a stripped one 10 years ago for $500.
*Looks at m4a1* “Look how far you’ve come.”
not far at all
since the USMC ditched it and the Army is trying to ditch it as well
@@ripvanwinkle2002it's really not that good, I'm always unimpressed when I have to fire it
@@rob0duck430 i also saw no advantage in the change from the a2 to the m4
just take the ratchet out of the a2 and restore full auto, job done..
well TBF the A2E4 with the removable irons and picitinny would be job done..
@@ripvanwinkle2002 Probably hasn't changed in years due to lobbyists despite there being better platforms for what the US military wants lol
@@rob0duck430 so not being sarcastic, but usually its not a matter of them being better. its a matter of them being significantly better for the cost involved with switching over.
A chibi original-pattern M16! It's so cute!
That museum piece would be my holy grail of Armalites.
Thank you Ian, well done.
Really nice video as always. I know I've said this before, I'm not technically minded but your videos are so accessible. Although all your videos are interesting I love the guns with a story like the Pancor Jackhmmer, PTRD and the Green Meanie. Really good.
This in my opinion is the coolest retro ar. Too bad those stocks are unobtainium I'd love a run or reproductions of them
So it turns out there's a company that makes them but at $800 a pop so they go back to unobtainium
@@shoelessbandit1581$800 is ok since decent ARs go for like 900-1000 bucks if I recal correctly.
Well there are airsoft versions of the 607 stocks, may come in handy for a .22lr copy, retro plinker
About time you do a vid on the 607.
This is interesting.
I like the A1 handguard.
If you attach C-MAG to a Colt 607, it becomes a Patriot.
This weapon actually started in around 1960, when it was originally a Colt 601 carbine! I have a photo of that weapon!
love history like this...!...thanks...great video...
Amazing presentation, the 607 ii the most cool of the M16 family......Thanks!!!!
The short handguard and stock make this thing look like a kids toy gun
Over the years I had M16, Converted M16A1, M16A1, M16A2 and finally an M4 with an ACOG which was the best of the lot. Shorter stock is so much easier to shoot
Heavy as 10 boxes shoots 50 caliber magazines. 500 rounds per second.
In the air force we carried something like this one. Our nomenclature was GAU...
What was the name of that M16 SMG prototype that I believe was built by the Air Force? It was a shrunk down M16/AR rifle with a shorter round than the 5.56x45. It was moreso an SMG class round. I want to say it was developed in the 70s.
It's interesting how many variants Colt made to be tried out by the soldiers. According to the motto, there will be something that you like. Super cool baby STG.
finally!! my favourite variant alongside the 608 🎉
Aww, look at that adorable pup...
Love that and would be great to see how it shoots
LOUDLY
Thanks Ian!!
Waiting YEARS for this video
I’m so early I’m still using wheel lock
That's because you only think Americans watch this and its only for Americans......Well I've got news for you! People all over the world watch it!!!!!!!!
@@nickjohnson710 Early for the video, not necessarily early in the day
@@fourleaf7570 it's 14.30 in the afternoon here in the Uk?
Such a beautiful little rifle in an unrefined kind of way
I use essentially this as my Airsoft platform and it's such a nice size to use. Never have to worry about smacking the barrel on anything, barrel length is plenty for plastic BBs and it's fairly well balanced weight wise around the pistol grip.
I'd love to see you take something like this to a match
Air soft? What's that, like a Daisy gun?
@@davidcruz8667 pretty much yeah
Chris Bartocci is soooo jealous of you right now!
My AR15/300 BLK with a 10.5" barrel is what Colt was striving for.
300 BLK was designed around a 10” suppressed barrel.
@@susanbauer8095 Exactly! Colt was reaching for what 300 BLK delivered many years later.
Oh my goodness, He's just a little guy!
Read one of John Plaster's SOG books some years ago. Said the commandos carried a short rifle. Don't know if it's the 607 or something else? Interesting history, and another great video.
i'd like to see a development timeline video from the first prototype to the M4 today
this is just such a great looking weapon.
Love these little shortyz
That thing is positively adorable.
A great incredibly interesting video and rifle Mr.GJ.Was there some also experimental red dot optical infrared or laser gunsight or ubgl to go with the C607?Have a good one.