Much Abrew: Irencrag Dragonstorm (Modern, Magic Online)
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Can Irencrag Feat make Dragonstorm into a real deck in Modern? Let's find out!
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Match 1: 5:27
Match 2: 12:21
Match 3: 24:24
Match 4: 35:40
Match 5: 53:05
After talking to a bunch of people (and judges), Magic Online is right about Irencrag Feat at suspend. Suspend is a weird, weird mechanic, but you can only suspend a card when you could cast it, and since we couldn't cast another spell thanks to Irencrag Feat we couldn't suspend.
Yeah, it's an odd one. On the reverse side, you can suspend things at instant speed if you have a flash enabler. The weirdest bit is that Quicken will enable you to suspend as many sorceries as you want until you actually use/lose it, same with scout's warning and creatures
Was just about to post this. It's quite the edge case.
It literaly says (and you read that) in the suspend ruling "if you could (begin to) cast".
That's a judge question for sure.
Yes, because basically suspend replaces the action of casting. Same as leovold/narset vs sylvan library: since you can't draw the cards, no cards are drawn. The principle is the same: since you can't cast spells, you can't replace the effect of casting into exiling the card with X counters of suspend.
I'm pretty sure MODO is actually correct on this (for once). Suspend states, "If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack from your hand". You can not cast another spell due to Ironcrag Feat, therefore you can not suspend because you can no longer take the action of casting another spell.
Pretty sure you're correct. You should be able to suspend as many cards as like BEFORE you cast after Irencrag, but not after. It's similar to the ruling on Quicken regarding suspend.
This is correct. Suspend is turned off by Irencrag for this reason. This also means that you could suspend a lotus bloom on your opponent's turn if you had some effect that let you play spells at instant speed.
Yep. There is this weird thing you can do where you can cast quicken and then suspend any number of sorceries because, until you cast our next sorcery, you can cast them at instant speed, but suspending a sorcery is not casting it so it doesn't "burn" through the one shot you get from quicken
Yep, you are very right.
Not a judge, but it makes sense to me that since the wording on suspend says "rather than cast this card" that you can only suspend in situations where you are otherwise able to cast the spell in question. So since Irencrag prevents you from casting spells you cannot suspend.
This usually isn't the case, but oddly enough, it absolutely is with suspend.
Suspend says you can suspend if you can cast the spell. Cause we cant cast spells after the Irencrag and the Hellkite we cant suspend cause we cannot cast spells anymore. If you suspend first you can also play the hellkite but not in the order seth did . Btw Fun fact you can supsend at instant speed with the teferi, time Raveler +1 ability.
From a strict gameplay perspective, you are attempting to cast the spell and then immediately replace the cast effect with suspend. The spell is never actually cast, but if something prevents you from casting, you also can not suspend.
You can even nevermore or meddling mage a suspend card, and it stop it from being suspended.
There’s two specific bits in the comp rules on this:
> 702.61a ... "Suspend N-[cost]" means "*If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack* from your hand, you may pay [cost] and exile it with N time counters on it. This action doesn't use the stack,"
And even more specifically:
> 702.61c While determining if you could begin to cast a card with suspend, take into consideration any effects that would prohibit that card from being cast.
So MODO is right somehow. Definitely counter-intuitive!
1:08:26 "Bad Dragon beat down" Owo
being heavily reliant on having your pieces, I’d think that boarding in leylines against thoughtknot seers would be worth considering
Rulings: "if you could... cast this card"
SaffronOlive: "nah it's a bug"
Yeah, I was wrong (but suspend is also really weird).
Who else is surprised that this deck actually did well
Me.
not me this deck is sick
I wanted to build it before this video came out, and now I want it even more!
Aye!
Not me, I used to play this deck when seething song was legal, thoughtseize didn't exist and the wincon was 4 bogardans and a couple hunted dragons. It's the best.
You're right that suspending is not casting, but it's an activated ability.
The thing is, as a rule inherent to suspend, you must be able to cast when you activate such ability.
Here's the ruling:
>> “Suspend N-[cost]” means “If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack from your hand, you may pay [cost] and exile it with N time counters on it. This action doesn’t use the stack,”
Yeah, you're correct.
Suspending is not an activated ability, but a static ability
Suspend says something like "If you are able to cast...then pay this amount to suspend."
Irencrag Feat makes it so you cannot cast it more than 1, so if you suspend before the restriction you should be okay, but it requires you to be able to cast it.
"Whenever you could cast a sorcery" means "during your main phase". It has nothing to do with actually being able to cast it.
My friend is running Dragon Storm. His picks for dragons are Lathliss and Scourge of Valkas. If you can get Storm 2, then Lathliss + Scourge + Scourge equals 26 damage to face, without the need to enter combat.
Nice!
how do you sequence that? Do you do Lathliss before the Scourges I assume?
"Nice kitchen finks"
Loved that zass, bro
This deck should be called [ D R A G O N F O R C E ]
ゴ ゴ ゴ「 D R A G O N F O R C E 」ゴ ゴ ゴ
Through counter and removals?
@@mustakragen6103 weak...
Only if Stevie t is on triangle
Disagree, it should clearly be called Cragonstorm
The best part about playing new decks is that opponents don't know what cards are in the deck or what the lines of play are. That's probably why opponent took Irencrag Feat in the first match up
Very true, it's a good way to get some extra value.
I streamed an Irencrag deck using Karns, Ugins, and Form of the Dragon. It's so awesome. That card makes turn 2 and 3 wins so consistent. Imagine if Seething Song was still legal.
Love your videos Meryn! Keep it up!
Sounds super sweet! Turn two or three Form of the Dragon or Karn should win a lot of games.
Before watching the video: "oooooh booooy have i been waiting for this, yes, YES, YESSSS!"
Should be adding something after seeing it all.
Edit: wow, the deck worked better than i expected, even when janking opponents out by actually casting those scaly boys. Anyways, i think the deck would reaaaly love brainstorm effects, sadly jace is too slow and... you know, brainstorm isn't even legal, but putting that aside this was a preety fun and awesome deck to see
Yeah, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand help, but actual Brainstorm would be pretty sweet.
Your comment makes me wonder if this is playable in Legacy.
@@SomeFreakingCactus I dont think so, force of will prevents this things from happening, no legacy player would let anyone resolve an irencrag feat ever... except for the ones not playing fow
58:00 "WE'RE JUST SHORT!" Doesn't get the dragon with 6 power instead of 5...
I almost threw my phone against the wall at that point
finally got round to watching this 😍😍 the era of the noveaux dragonstorm has begun
Looks quite fun, and honestly works more than i had imagined it would. Dragonstorm really is a neat card.
As a judge, unfortunately the suspend-irencraig interaction is correct on MODO, to suspend a card with suspend, you must first be able to cast it, which irencraig feat inhibits after you had cast your dragonstorm.
With a CR reference to back myself up; 702.61a: "If you could begin to cast this card..."
To reiterate, irencraig feat stops you from being able to begin casting lotus bloom, therefore making the first requirement of suspending a suspend card unable to be fulfilled.
Furthermore, think of suspend functioning as more of an alternate method of casting a spell, not so much as activating an ability, nonetheless, it still acts like it is casting a spell.
Thank you for reading my very long comment, if anyone has any questions at all feel free to reply to this comment, I'm happy to help at all I can! :D
- your local internet L1
Love this deck. Dragonstorm was the card that got me hyped about mizzix of the izzmagnus and introduced me to magic.
Awesome!
The fact that you plowed through tron made me so happy
@seth its the same logic as dredging under a narset before and after youve drawn a card for turn. While suspend doesnt "count" as casting a spell, much like dredge doesnt "count" as drawing a card, you would still have to have the ability to cast the spell (or draw the card) in the first place in order to use the replacement effect for the action of casting a spell (or drawing a card). Hope that helped!
I love the lotus addition! Definitely made it better and more consistent than the original build.
Sarkan approves this deck
Alternate title: Cragenstorm
I like it.
it's the same reason you can't suspend on an opponent's turn even though suspend looks like an activated ability. It doesn't say suspend only as a sorcery and part of that confusion is that there aren't any suspend spells that have flash, which makes some sense since most of them aren't meant to be cast for full rate. if you could give suspend spells flash you would be able to suspend on opponent's endstep
I love the addition of the research when something weird happens
MODO is correct. The important text was when it said that anytime you could cast a spell you may pay the suspend cost. It is an ability, not casting, but since it requires you to still be able to cast a spell, and you had already cast your last spell of the turn, that condition could no longer be met. Since that condition could not be met, no suspend costs could be paid, and the card could not be suspended until the following turn when the Feat limits ceased to apply.
Game winning “dagons” 0:53 I love you Seth probably better known as saffron olive
Here's your next against the odds: Turn 1: mountain
Turn 2: mountain
Turn 3: mountain exile spirit guide, fires of invention, Dragon hatchling
Turn 4: mountain, repeated reverberation, irencrag feat, pump the hatching, attack for 20. If you win a game with this, you'll be a legend.
I was told by a friend that Karn would be an amazing addition to the deck, or at least the side board.
5:27 first match.
Lotus Bloom seemed really good!
Sweet deck, surprised how well the deck did. Good to some dragons in modern. 😀
I think you can swap an Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand or two for Peer Through Depths. It digs deeper and occasionally you can splice onto it.
Since this is a shell that can cast 9-mana spells on turn 4 with reasonable consistency, it may be worth examining what other 9 mana cards are available in modern that were ignored until now as too expensive.
In think the best solution might be to make our mana in a way that we can hardcast Dragons from our hand easier. Ritualing out something like Karrthus or Bogardan Hellkite can still be good enough.
There’s two specific bits in the comp rules on this:
> 702.61a ... "Suspend N-[cost]" means "*If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack* from your hand, you may pay [cost] and exile it with N time counters on it. This action doesn't use the stack,"
And even more specifically:
> 702.61c While determining if you could begin to cast a card with suspend, take into consideration any effects that would prohibit that card from being cast.
So MODO is right somehow. Definitely counter-intuitive!
This deck is so sweet
Surprisingly so, imo.
Seems pretty close to the list I sent in to you, I really like it. I've only lost a couple games with mine. I really think that 4 bogardans are the way to go. Also see beyond is very important to shuffles those dragons back. The wishclaw is super sweet too. It's in many ways better than the transmute guy you have considering that it's less of an investment in one turn and can get you whichever part of the combo that you need. It's so sweet to turn one suspend lotus bloom, its very hard to lose the game when that spell resolves. The only real problem with the deck is thought seize effects. Which to be fair is another reason to play the wishclaw talisman.
Not a bug. The rules say "If you could begin to cast this card...". You could not begin to cast this card, because you are not allowed to cast any more spells.
I think there was an additional punt in g1 against golems, because with 2 suspended blooms you could easily wait with prism for additional storm count on go off turn.
"If you could begin to cast" being the condition for activating suspend implies that Irencrag Feat's "can only cast one more spell" clause makes it so that you could not (under normal circumstances) begin to cast it, therefore you don't get the option to instead pay its suspend cost and exile it with time counters.
Guttural Response seems great for the board.
Best Much Abrew in a while!! Do you think you'll play this deck again sometime?
I greatly enjoyed your enthusiasm and your interesting deck!
Glad you liked it!
I tend to skip the deck tech when I watch these, but I was so confused by Grozoth that I had to head back and give it a quick look. I always forget that you transmute for whatever the CMC of the card itself is, and not for the transmute cost itself. Being an extra way to grab dragonstorm makes perfect sense.
I believe you had the win in the second game against Vizier/Druid. You pass the turn, take their hit and go to 1. If they don’t have more hand disruption you play your land, ritual + splice the other ritual, cast the other ritual, then Dragonstorm for 3.
This might be the coolest deck of all time bro!!!
Heh.
Nah.
@@SomeFreakingCactus nah? Ok lol
You can exile a card in your hand using suspend any time you could cast that card. Consider its card type, any effect that affects when you could cast it (such as flash) and any other effects that could stop you from casting it (such as Meddling Mage’s effect) to determine if and when you can do this. Whether or not you could actually complete all steps in casting the card is irrelevant. For example, you can exile a card with suspend that has no mana cost or requires a target even if no legal targets are available at that time.
at 38:10 couldnt you start by ritual + splicing? So if it gets countered so what, but if it resolves you win without having to cast any further spells but dragonstorm
We did have the mana, but if the ritual itself gets countered the slice is countered too, so we wouldn't have enough mana to get to Dragonstorm (although maybe worrying about counters there was silly and we should have just went for it).
My daily dose of fentanil but in cards
Been wairing to see a deck like this
Suspend acts as casting a spell to put it there iirc. You also read the rule. It is when you begin to cast a spell. Since you couldn’t cast another spell you couldn’t suspend.
*Dragonstorm spikes to $30*
Ugh, I hope not.
I got a Scourge one and a Scourge Foil one, would be nice.
Seth, budget version plz
The wording was "if you could cast the spell, then you can suspend instead" meaning you already cast your one more spell so you COULD NOT cast the spell, thus you are unable to suspend.
read the pin after posting this.
been waiting. this video took too long to upload
I think the deck needs a mono red 7 drop dragon that could potentially be cast off just ironcrag feat such as drakuseth or balefire dragon.
Nice list Seth! I was wondering if you ever considered a shell closer to normal storm? With a bear and two lands you can ritual > feat > Storm to have a storm that gets three dragons which can kill. Lathliss, sourge of Valkas, and bogardan helkite actually kills the opponent without even going to combat.
Also a note that with this dragon lineup makes all of your dragons castable. I just wanted your thoughts since I was thinking about also brewing with this deck!
Not sure about adding Baral-style creatures. My worry would be that they die to a lot of removal that is otherwise pretty blank against our deck. I do like the idea of Lathliss + Scourge of Valkas, although I don't think we'd want it to be our only plan for winning the game since something like Leyline of Sanctity can fizzle the direct damage plan.
@@MTGGoldfish similar to yours it is still just dumping a lot of power on the board so even if they do have a leyline they better also have a wrath or they will still lose because of Lathliss's tokens. And the red dragon lineup raises your floor to just feating into dragons if you run into too much disruption.
So the suspend ruling actually makes total sense but its admittedly hard to put into the right words but i’ll try my best. suspend says “rather than pay this spell’s casting cost” which implies that you could pay a cast it to begin with. If you cant cast it regularly, you cant choose to replace it. it would be clearer if it read “Any time you could cast this card, you may instead pay its suspend cost” since that is essentially what it says where rules are involved
not a judge btw, just a stickler for clarity and technicalities when its 3:00 AM lol
Yeah, I believe this is right.
So turn 1 deafening silence is just game, even after sideboarding?
I mean, in theory, we can make land drops and cast Dragons, but we aren't going ever with a Deafening Silence on the battlefield.
Well great, Seth went and broke the meta.
After resolving irencreg, you don't meet the condition precedent to suspending lotus. the condition is "if you could begin to cast this card..." You cannot cast more spells this turn, so for the rest of the turn you are not eligible to suspend a card.
since haste karrthus and dragonlord dromoka seem so important for this deck to win without allowing interaction, i wonder if that keep was correct where your starting hand had both of them? you didn't get a chance to really do anything that game but from the cards your opponent discarded it seemed that even if you had the dragonstorm it would not have done anything because you couldn't haste or protect your dragons
"If you could begin to cast this card by putting it on the stack from your hand." You could not, therefore you couldn't activate Suspend.
That second match against abzan druid combo I thought they were hesitating because they were going to be like: exilte two black cards and wrath your board bud. Good game. Lol.
I keep thinking about guitar hero when I say dragon storm. This deck seems fast when it works, like!
That’s Dragonforce you’re thinking of.
4-1 Is awesome for dragonstorm!!!
This deck is SWEET
Thanks!
It makes sense. Just strech out the wording a bit and it would be "when you could cast a spell you must instead exile this card with X time counters"
Edit: this is a casualty of over simplification of card text. Sometimes three words such as when you could completely changes a sentence
Oh baby here we go
Is there a good way in Modern to put cards from your hand back in your deck? I feel like this deck could use that effect.
0:53 daegrans lol I felt that
Why you don't use boseiju for counterspells?
Filipe Borges if u have to use 2 or more rituals, the opponent can counter at least one and u still probably fizzle
Dragonstorm, son!
I texted the judge that plays at my lgs and he said that was definitely a bug. They would need to fix the suspend rules in the code.
Why not use the twiddle shell? I feel like it's a much effective way to get a lot of mana and storm count without relying on artifacts or rituals.
Seth it said if you could begin to cast but there was no window to cast so you couldn't suspend
What are the chances of possibly trying to incorporate this combo in the monored dragon build?!?
I'm building a deck around the dragonstorm ( i love this card ! and dragons !!!). I'm trying to build for the legacy format and this video is useful to inspire me for building. I'm thinking about what could i change and adapt this deck for legacy. Biland and fetch and maybe brainstorm terror of peaks. If you have some advice i would be pleased that you share with me @MTGGoldfish and community
As a storm player, deck is sweet and really fun. But in the game against storm, opp played game 2 so badly, after casting Pif not playing rituals in GY first then not having enough blue mana to cantrip for you wincon...
Yeah, our opponent's play certainly helped. I think they could have killed us that turn if they were more experienced with Storm.
Please make Irencrag feat worth something since I've pulled an entire playset!
Maybe some sort of bounce in the 75 somewhere? More of a catch-all answer. Echoing truth or something.
I feel like no matter how good the deck actually is, your match 1 game 1s always get to show off the deck
In the 3rd match against UW control, if you had paid for the mana leak that countered the ritual, would you still of had enough mana? For some reason i counted total 11 mana after ritual, so paying for 2 and casting d storm was possible, right?
question: would boseiju be in consideration for the sideboard?
We definitely need something more for the control matchup. Boseiju could be the answer.
The official ruling is You may only suspend cards any time you could cast a spell. Lost a game in a tournament due to an opponent casting Silence on me and i couldnt suspend a rift bolt
Yeah, this sounds correct. Suspend is really weird.
35:00 not being able to cast is a bug, definitely! Awesome Dragonstorm deck!!! I always dreamed about seeing Dragonstorm being useful, and this is definitely it!
Nope, not a bug. Suspend says you can only do it when you could cast the spell, and the rules of the ability specificy that restrictions like Meddling Mage still apply. So since you cast a spell after Feat, you aren't legally allowed to cast the Bloom, and therefore can't even Suspend it.
@@Ahayzo nice catch. After re-reading the still frame on that mark, it says 'if you could begin to cast'. This specific moment of MTG ruling is always a bit weird, like some of the crazier interactions with ashnod'a altar, KCI and the like.
personally i would run an oujitai for flavor but deck looks sweet
So I have missed modern since before the banning of faithless looting is modern now just Tron?
Why would you not scry every ritual ever to the top when you already have Dragonstorm in hand? Gets you closer to casting it, and ups your storm!
it is in fact a bug. because the ability replaces a cast effect the game doesn't seem to let u get to the point for it to make the replacement.
If you're not allowed to cast you're not allowed to suspend. That's just a rule of Magic and Mtgo handled it correctly.
Sometimes you just gotta beat a guy to death with several dragons.
Ok, why in the world did the opponent not take Dragonstorm with Thought-knot in game 2 of match 1?!
is there a world where grozo becomes see beyond? shuffle in the fat dragons that can get stuck in hand
I think this list could use 1-2 Day's Undoings in case of drawing all the dragons like the last game.
9:40 am i missing something or why would he not be able to dragonstorm next turn?
1:08:26 Sounds like a good time
Is karthus only there for haste?
Hey Seth, would serum powder help this deck?