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I agree completely with your conclusions here. We used to run Boxster Spec cars and had a pair of them with identical setup, weight etc. We experimented with staggered 225/255 tires vs 255 square and got a lot of data over many track weekends. On fast tracks like Fontana or Laguna Seca the staggered setup was a bit faster with consistently higher speeds at the end of a long straight. We concluded that this may be a result of both rolling resistance and aero in high speed sections. On tighter courses with fewer long straights the 255 square setup was consistently faster with more grip in the corners. Which tire should you choose? For HPDE as a novice or intermediate driver still working on skills and fundamentals, the Michelin 4S is a great choice as it is very responsive and turns quick laps consistently. For an advanced driver in AX or Time Trials where lap times really matter, the RE71RS is the ticket to the pointy end of the time sheet. At most weekend TT events we bring both. We run the 4S on Saturday and Sunday morning to wire the track and then switch to the RE71RS for 1-2 practice sessions and final Time Trial runs. This keeps us running at the front for each TT event of the season. Cheers!
The biggest advantage of track tires isn't just more speed but more predictability lap after lap, especially in warmer ambient temperatures. Due to the increased speed and traction, the biggest disadvantage of track tires is brake fade and potentially overheating of the engine and drivetrain. These issues go up exponentially the faster you are.
Yup, did a grip build on my civic as a corner focus car and was testing with stock brakes. They didnt last long at all, pushed my endless ss-s pads to the absolute limit.
TBH, street tires give much more predictability because they work at various temperatures and they don't overheat. A track focused tire only works at a very specific temperature, and then falls off fast after it gets too hot. With the Bridgestones you start out slow until heated up, then have a 3-4 lap window to set your fast times, after which they fall off hard. With the Michelins, your first lap and your 20th lap will be exactly the same.
@@saidtheblueknight Yup, you are 100% wrong. The RE-71RS tires are ready to go by the third or fourth corner, not lap. The downfall of street tires it the excess tread depth that causes tire squirm and causes heat. If you are uber slow, then street tires are ok. But anything over 8/10ths and the will get very hot, very unpredictable and start to chunk. The Michelins may have 3 or 4 fast laps in cool temps but in hot temps they may not even make it a few laps especially with a fast driver in something like a Mustang, Corvette, BMW or Porsche. Higher horsepower and weight makes the whole equation even worse.
@@saidtheblueknight Eh? Have you ever tracked the PS4S? They overheat very easily within 20 minutes on any car with a moderate amount of power (200hp+) even on a low speed track. They literally melt and chunk apart when you push on.
@@saidtheblueknight why are you talking when you've clearly never been on a racetrack? or maybe you have been but driving like a granny wtf thats the whole point of track tires that you can do several laps without hurting them too much.
It would have been interesting to see how the car would have performed with Pilot Sport 4S tires in a square setup with the 275 size on the Apex wheels.
Came to the comments to say the same. Especially considering precious videos where in similar situations it most likely would be been included, but I get it may have been a time limited thing. Looking forward to same setup in street vs track tires to see if the difference is still as drastic?
I would like to see a test like "Do you need extreme performance all seasons vs grand touring all seasons" like the DWS06+ vs Contiprocontact or like a Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ vs Primacy or MXM4
I can answer this- get the performance tires if you enjoy stopping, steering, or accelerating. In my 20 year old Saab station wagon with PSAS4’s I beat my friend’s BRZ with Primacy summers in SCCA autocross. I used to have DWS/DWS06, my dad had pure contact- simply no comparison. Is the life ~1/2 the touring tire? Yes. I don’t care- I enjoy the drive, and good tires saved me form at least one accident in crazy Detroit traffic.
@lgunderso2117 curious about this because I'm getting new tires soon for my Genesis G70 and I've been super debating over PSAS4 or PS4S. It's my daily driver and everything I've seen on the all season tires looks like it has more than enough performance with the benefit of driving in the rain or sub 40 degree weather. Probably looking to do a little bit of SCCA at some point too. I have the AWD version of the car is for some stupid reason they only offer it with primacy tires.
@@Hardcaslte primacy’s are garbage. I just did an autocross in my ct5 blackwing with PS4S TPC (halfway between PS4S and cup 2)- it has far more grip than the PSAS4 but when driving in the dry this winter it was quite scary. If it were me: If you have dedicated winters, go for the PS4S. If not, PSAS4. I have 4 winters on my Blizzak WS90’s, they’re holding up quite well, 15k miles has worn them 3/32- I’d be ok leaving them on a little later than needed to endure no snow fell with PS4S. I still love driving the PSAS4, great in the rain and not bad in snow, though I still have winter tires for that car- necessary here in Detroit for my critical commute.
@@lgunderso2117 Yeah every time I think about getting PS4S and start getting excited about it, I talk to someone like you and it's like buuutttt do I really need them? I live in the South where right now it's raining all the time, then I do trips to North Carolina about 3 times a year, which means I could end up in NC in the winter when it's like 30 degrees or colder some times...at that point I think it's not even worth taking my car if I had PS4S and just take my wife's Volvo lol. So the combination of rain down here and winter up there, I'm thinking PSAS4 is the right choice.
I have two sets of wheels for my 718 Cayman - the OEM ones with PS4S, and the track/autocross wheels (-1" diameter) with RE71RS. The difference is truly night and day!
Same experience here in a 718 Cayman T. We went from the factory 20” wheels fitted with P Zero PZ4 to 19” Apex wheels fitted with RE71RS. Both time and feel are equally affected. Testing ground is Virginia International Raceway. P Zero PZ4 felt great, but they definitely talked backed to you if you tried to push for a quicker time. Average lap time for me was 2:16. The RE71RS have been my favorite track tire beside the Michelin Cup 2. Responsiveness is greatly improved and you can certainly brake later harder and accelerate sooner and more aggressively out of the corners. My average lap times on those are 2:11.
I was impressed by the most heartfelt, honest, and earnest endorsement of counseling I have ever seen. Many need this important help. BRAVO to Jonathan and Better Health! Also, keep up the excellent reviews.
Been using VPR for almost 4 years (we are lucky to have it next to us, here in Greece), great tool and happy to see it advancing and apperaring in reputable productions/channels! Keep it up!
I agree with your findings. On my GT4, I run PS4S in the OEM 245/295 sizes as well as RE71RS in 255/285 on a smaller 19" wheel. The PS4S are excellent on track, especially on cooler wet days we get in the PNW. But the RE71RS turn the car into a complete animal! I just wish they had them in more sizes
Great test again, thank you. I was wondering what your view / explanation is for the following - on their website, Apex Wheels says about (E46) M3 track wheel recommendations "Note: 19" wheels aren't recommended in this section. Performance dictates that the smallest possible wheel diameter be used that clears the brakes [for track use]." - Why are 18" wheels recommended above 19" for track use? (apart from tyres being cheaper) is there a real performance / steering feel benefit in tracking 18" instead of 19"?
I've driven the 4S and RE71RS on my 718S and the problem I ran into with the 4S is that I could chunk the outside shoulder on -1.8 Deg. of camber when used on tracks with banked turns with medium to high speed. The RE71RS holds up better over multiple sessions for me.
I guess the best compromise for casual track day drivers would be a square setup with the 275 Pilot Sport 4s all around. You get the added benefit of more front grip, but the harder compound still takes the edge off, road and wet performance is probably better and you get a longer lasting tire.
Always gotta give a shoutout seeing my home track, Utah Motorsport Campus, being featured! I think one of the big things w/ track days and tires is what you can afford. Tracking a car is not cheap, even for low HP cars. If you've already got a solid summer tire it may not be financially viable to buy separate tires for 1 track day. Of course, if you've the means to go frequently then a dedicated tire is the way to go. Hell, I've tracked on all-seasons and it was still fun! Great vid as always and hoping I can run into the Smurf blue, last good looking BMW, one of these days.
I love it! East track is the best in my opinion! I have taken my Veloster N to their amateur track days on quite a few occasions and always get excited when we’re put on East track.
anyone ever have issues running hard at that kinda elevation? i'd imagine you're down on power and heat management there. other than that and the air quality, SLC looks like a nice place to live and race
@@veganjoy The f80 does a pretty good job with both cooling and balancing power thanks to the turbo. It's something you have to keep in mind though when it's really hot.
I am considering one of the two tyres you tested for replacement after the stock PS4 on my GR86 are done. Very useful info, and nicely done video! Very well driven as well, almost 93% DS - crazy! Thank you!
I’ve had two sets of Michelin Pilot Sport 4s on my BMW M4 and I absolutely love them. They’re good looking, quiet, super in the wet and great in the dry. Very comfortable even on 20” wheels. On a previous set I actually had a nail in one and a screw in the other. Didn’t even know they were there until I got the new set mounted (never lost pressure in either tire). Can’t imagine running anything else. 👍🏁
I had 2 punctures in my 4S's on my GT350 that were large enough to hear the ticking of the nail/bolt head. I literally spun the wheels in first both times, shearing/flattening the head off and the 4S's have somehow continued to hold air perfectly after both scenarios... wild
I have a question unrelated to this video. As someone who avoids tracks, but will travel very long distances for twisty mountain roads, I have runflats under my car (Michelin PS 4). Just out of curiosity: how do the stiffer sidewalls on runflats affect the performance? From watching this channel I'd say that the stiffer sidewalls mean they should communicate better, but there is probably more to it. I am eager to learn. Two months ago I wrecked all 4 tires on a mountain road in eastern Turkey and without runflats that would have been more a lot more adventurous. Now I just drove to the next town. Lesson learned: depots where they deposit sharp rocks from landslides can look quite similar to unpaved parking lots, but differences do matter. 😁
Gotta love an f80 Jon, but it’s a heavy bus and a strong sidewall is essential. I recommend trying the BMW star rated Pirelli p zero. They’re built like tanks and put up with a huge amount of abuse, even with an f80 on top of them. They aren’t the quickest tyre, but they’re superb fun, consistent and work well in the wet, with a wear rate that doesn’t destroy the wallet. Ask the ring guys why they run them lap after lap!
@@tyrereviews yeah the current oem star p zeros are a great compound, and not to be confused with a standard p zero. I actually run a set on my mx5 as well, and they look new after 10 track days, in spite of putting in near cup2 levels of pace.
I have a set of Bridgestone Potenza RE-71RS on my Abarth 595. It's little more than a Go Kart at 995kg, but it does have 300hp through the front wheels, which causes traction issues. These tyres are night and day compared to the stock Michelin's and the Bridgestone RE003's.
I street drive only. but I do appreciate what little info I might be able to apply to my circumstance.. what I really want is info on what brands consistently balance out more easily, which I think would be universally appreciated. I made the mistake of dropping off my wheels to get my new high line Goodyear tires mounted and went to lunch. I should have stood by and watched on something that important to me. When I came back, it looked like there was a bet to see how many wheel weights could possibly be used. balance, the quality of the build, is more important to me than absolute performance, except in an emergency, because I am old and only tour.
Looks like it is only available in 19" and up, unlike the FK520 from 17" and up. When the Potenza Sport is available from 16" and up (including the 205/55R16 & 225/50R16 combo for old 911s and old Honda S2000s) and the Potenza RE004 is available from 14" (!!!!) and up, perfect for NA MX-5s or classic AE86s or maybe some Kei cars, that's quite frustrating. The Potenza RE004 starts at a 165/55R14 72V, which is a great effort by Bridgestone IMO.
On my Audi TTS mk3, the RE-71-RS cured a lot of the understeer as well. I run 20" PS4S and 18" RE71-RS for autocross. The PS4S I use below 50F or when too wet for the RE71-RS. This makes the expensive PS4S last a long time. Would have liked a price comparison with a 19" square setup for your PS4S'.
@@tyrereviews Since the autocross courses vary, I'll compare FTOTD to an experienced guy who is usually faster than me in warm conditions, in June/August at events in Packwood, WA with a course that is 60 to 69 seconds long. He drives a stock 2006 Cayman with RE71-RS. My car is also stock. In 2022 on PS4S I was 2 seconds slower the first day, 2.5 slower the next. In 2023, first year on RE71-RS I was 1.8 seconds slower the first day, 1.1 slower the next. This year I was 0.9 seconds slower the first day, 1.1 slower the next. They may be worth time more as I get better.
Once again creating a remarkable video that features intriguing and unconventional comparisons. Your work is truly excellent, Jonathan. Please continue to produce such outstanding content.
Tire grip and rolling resistance is what caused the slower acceleration. I’ve come to the same conclusion. On a 1/4 mile racetrack where there is traction compound and drag radials my car does a slower 60-130 time when compared to when it’s on pavement that doesn’t have traction compound and the vehicle is equipped with those same Michelin PS4S. The stickiness of the compound and slightly wider tires (275 drag radials vs 265 summer tires) makes a difference. The front wheels and tires were the same.
I have a 01 firebird formula that runs Potenza Sport and RE-71RS on two identical sets of wheels...the acceleration difference is noticable even on the street. Off the line, they both have outstanding traction. I can do a 4k clutch dump in either and dead hook. By the end of first gear, the acceleration difference is notable. You feel like you lose speed between gear changes with the RE-71RS while the Potenza Sport "glides" between shifts. You feel the difference in gear acceleration as well, particularly at higher speeds. Its gotta be the rolling resistance in my opinion. That and the weight, all the weight of the RE-71RS is on the the shoulders and the most rubber is right on the center of tread, its the furthest away from center of mass. The design is why it corners and feels so solid but its also creating the most inertia. I want to hook up a draggy and do some in gear acceleration tests to take launch and shifting out of the equation. Id also like to see how long it takes to shed speed back to back...for example going from 60mph to 20mph coasting on both tires
Great review Jonathan! I think as still a very occasional track driver I'm better sticking to the 4S or similar. I like the fact they can take a bit of abuse on track and still drive home intact.
Hey Jon, the understeer may be a function of the stock suspension as much as it is the staggered wheel and tire size. The F80 begs for aftermarket coilovers.
Finally the M3 test car, I've been waiting for it since the announcement of E92 M3 for track testing a few years back. I hope for a lot more content also about modding the car.
7-years of tracking the F8X platform taught me that 275 are not enough on the rear axle, the S55 just has too much torque for those tires. A 275-305/35R18 setup is what worked the best for me.
@@tyrereviews With a good track alignment, the balance was perfect. Like you, I also tend to prefer a car that is slightly loose to get good rotation on corner entry. With a square 275 setup, I had to do significant throttle management on corner exit, which did not allow me to fully exploit the strong mid-range of the S55. The 305 in the rear solved that and shaved almost 2 seconds off my lap times at my local track (on a ~1:50min lap).
@@Ganserndorf9411 insane! That's huge. I got the competition model f82 which comes with 285 in the rears as stock, did you find any fitment issues/any changes you needed to do going from 275 to 305? Or was it just a case of plug and play?
Currently it’s better to get ContiSport 7 all around for superb grip and wet handling plus trackday tire for trackdays. Unless you want to heavily compromise, this is the best setup
@@tyrereviews Bad. Actually I will send mine to be examined by conti, because on the very first trackday, front tires experienced fatigue of side thread.
PS4S just doesnt last on track for me. It gets greasy and slidey way too quickly. Its pretty good on a wet track though, so ill drive there on the street PS4S set up then switch to an F1SS if it is dry, or leave the Michelins on if its wet, so i find thats quite a good compromise.
I know in Europe it isn’t the same as North America for category options, but I’d love to see comparisons on ultra-high performance all-seasons against regular all-season and/or touring tyres. I’m personally comparing Pilot Sport All Season 4 to Continental ContiProContact (oem), and Goodyear Assurance Maxlife for my daily driver integra. Trying to find out how much more wet traction and stopping distance the faster tread wear of uhp buys me.
Just get the PSAS4 and find out for yourself. You get what you pay for. It might not be worth the price difference for you, but it is a really good tire.
@SayAhh The price is fairly comparable for all of those in my area, the Michelin and Goodyear were both about 10-15% more than Continental. It's just that with one you're paying for performance and the other you're paying for longevity. I will probably go Michelin because I want the assurance of as much wet stopping traction as I can reasonably get, but I'm curious how much performance you're trading that longevity for and how far apart the high performance all season/all weather categories are from the normal or long life all season/all weather.
The better acceleration could be due to a lower rotational moment of inertia. Moment of inertia goes a step further than just 'weight of the wheel' and looks at how hard it is to accelerate. You could test it with a sort of reverse dyno setup where you see how quickly the wheel can be spun up to a certain rpm from a standstill with an electric motor supplying a controlled amount of power.
Awesome video as always appreciate all the time and effort you put in as you can tell you’re passionate about reporting accurate information. Question, hypothetically, speaking, based on your experience with all these tires, how would the BMW OEM spec Michelin “Star” pilot 4S have done in this test?
@@dannyyin9663 well that’s weird. I’m running 255/35/19 pilot sport 4S ⭐️on my 19 x 8 1/2 wheels on a set up 2012 Hyundai Sonata. This is my second set and they’re absolutely awesome. here is the Michelin order information.. 255 /35 R19 96Y XL BSW BM Item #39579. My local discount tire dealership gets them for me with no issue or worries.
My theory would be that the wider front tyres and them being stiffer also means they are heavier. (stiffer=heavier construction?) That bit of more weight can already make a tiny bit of difference in accelleration i think.
The only data I have to back up my claims would be seat of the pants feel. I’ve driven a car with the RE71RS fitted for HPDE events and we’ve been playing with wheel sizing a bit. Our recent discovery has been rim width. We found that 245/35-19 on an 8 inch rim was less responsive. We were always waiting for the front of the car to catch up. This past weekend we tried 245/35-19 on a 9 inch rim which was much more responsive and shifted the balance from what I would describe as understeer to neutral. Turn in was crisp and no waiting for the front. Best guess is less side wall flex. 🤷🏻♂️ Test mule is a 718 Cayman T
I know for me - assuming you can dial out excessive understeer equally in either case - tires with LESS overall grip are MORE fun. Not as fast of course, but more fun. And better for beginners to learn on. The first thing I tell new track drivers is not to run out and buy track tires right away. Learn to get the most out of the lesser tires first. It will make you a better driver.
Great reviews. I have a Porsche Cayman 718 GT4 which came with Dunlop Race Maxx2 from the factory, most of my driving is done on Scottish country roads rather than the track what would you recommend?
Thank you for the great video! Any idea if we'll look into how summer and winter tyres deal with rough asphalt in the summer dry and wet? I am eagerly awaiting any data on that topic!
Great video thanks as always. Just a couple of things: Why at the conclusion you say a street tire would have more longevity on the track? It would be heat soaked in a couple of laps and start to destroy itself with overheating thus giving you a lower lifespan than a more track oriented tire. I know this videos take a lot of time and are expensive and time consuming but I think this test would need a road assessment too. What is the use of a semi slick tire that gets warm in half a lap but overheats after 5 or 6 laps? Vice versa what is the use of a semi slick on the road if a PS4 is faster on the street? Probably it's due to driving style and car performance my example and I'm very happy: Bmw M235i BM3 stg2 225F and 245R Yokohama Advan sport v107 for street Nankang ar1 for the track Both tires in my opinion and from your tests are very resistant to high temperatures even though when they are cold they don't handle the best. But can last long spirited drive on the road or a full track day with sessions of 30 minutes non stop. Probably my issue is due to the fact that my tires are small for the power I'm pushing and are over stressed I will test on upsizing both front and rear but would like to change too much the balance of the car as it's nice and playful on acceleration and it's very balanced once all 4 wheels slide in fast corners.
In this case with the Bridgestone being a super200 it's heat management isn't that much better than the PS4S, and the huge amount of extra starting tread depth on the Michelin means I think it would last longer assuming you're managing both tyres, but I haven't tested this so I might be wrong.
Awesome video, thanks. Love to see more track day tyres tested. For the acceleration, i bet on rolling resistance. When i went from normal tyres to michelin supersport, i went down in topspeed from 248km/h to 245 (gps speed) With my nankang ar-1 i am glad if i make 240😅 As long as the tires can handle the acceleration grip, the less resistance the faster you are. Same for wider or stickier tyres and lap times
Given how wide the performance window of the new re71rs is, as well as how civilized it is, I would love to see an extended long-weekend road trip style comparison between the 71rs, the ps4s, and one or two more tires. No need to focus much on outright pace, just weigh the driving pleasure and heat tolerance against longevity, wet performance, etc
Another great review as always. I'm always curious about the absolute opposite of these types of tires, the comfort-focused tires, such as the Comfort Contact, which haven't made an appearance on the channel yet. Summer tires often gear towards performance, but what if we're looking for tires for grandpa / grandma?
I like how the car comes alive and becomes more of a race car with the Potenza track day tyres! Fun video. 😁 On a wet track day would the Michelin road tyre be the better choice?
Yeah i think so, the RE71RS is excellent in the wet for its category but I think the Michelin would be easier to drive and certainly better in standing water.
@@warboyrb you sound like a seasoned racer, I think in general for 99% of people the 4S's are a much safer option. Maybe the 71r are good but every other summer tire is atrocious in the wet
Regarding G’s during acceleration, where you running DSC + TC off? With the square set-up, you may have experienced more power cut-off from the ECU out of corners
We have also been using VPRating for data acquisition, a great tool for monitoring not only the vehicle dynamics but the driving performance as well!! 92 is a great driving score, well done!!! 💪
After a track day should you clean off the rubber worms on the tyre and if so how? Always wondered how it would affect wet grip when back on real road conditions. Have SC7 on 720s and they’re very good in winter and wet but too bubble gummy on the track.
You know I've never really studied it. Back in the UK I'd find a quiet roundabout and build up moderate lateral g and t he tires would clean themselves, though they never quite looked this bad.
I wonder if the peak acceleration could be a matter of the tire carcass, maybe the softer structure of the Michelin played better with the chassis/traction control?
Could be! As far as I understand, soft structure = better longitudinal grip (drag racing tyres being the extreme case, they are very, very flexible) whereas stiff structure = better lateral grip (at least in dry conditions). My understanding is that even the Michelin Cup 2 still has a more flexible structure than the Potenza RE71RS, due to the different philosophy of the two tyre manufacturers. 🤔
I have a theory - the centrifugal forces on the rotating tire at those high speeds make it want to bulge outward and depending on compound stiffness, (softer for track tires), there is higher deformation on track tires, which means the dynamic rolling resistance is greater than the static rolling resistance
Anecdotal observation between these tires on my Civic Type R. The rolling resistance aspect is pretty noticeable even in daily driving situation. RE71RS for me is specifically autoX tires and I'd be carrying them on separate wheels and swap at the event. I used the autoX tires early on to drive on the road just to get them some mileage prior to event and compare the MPG between stock PS4S to those(slightly wider, 275 vs 265) is about 3.5 MPG consistently. I'd say you can even feel the car takes more throttle input to get it going and maintain speed on the highway.
A few ideas regarding the acceleration differences, keeping in mind I'm just spit balling here... Firstly, are the tires the same circumference? The Michelin looks bigger somehow. We are almost certainly not restricted by torque, so is a bigger tire able to convert more of the torque into usable power? Secondly, sidewall. Which combined with... Third, a more forgiving tire compound. Which like the sidewall leads to... And lastly Traction Control. Basically I'm wondering if the smaller and more flexible sidewall is making it easier for the car to maintain grip under acceleration. Maybe the car can detect and then compensate for grip faster. Or perhaps with more flex in the compound the pulses of power put through the driveline from the engine are less jarring. (look into moto gp engine firing orders for a rabbit hole on this...) You also mention that the rear tires on the Bridgestone didn't fire up as quickly as the fronts, and that they also fell off before your quick laps. What TC settings were being used? Maybe the Ego dial needs a twist? An M3 isn't really on the same level as the GTI.... Anyone else have ideas?
I went back to back with these two on my STI (at UMC as well). I started with the PS4S and after one ATD track night and was very disappointed in how quickly they fell off and turned to mush after 3 laps. They absolutely need cooldown laps. They also didn't have near the turn-in feel that I was after either. AMAZING for a daily driver, but I do not think they're really up to actual track duty. I've been loving the RE71RS.
I’m happy to see that F80 in the back as your new test car. Can you come up with some street tires for 600+ horsepower cars? Something that shows wet traction and dry traction from a dig or a roll? MP4S tires spin on cars at this HP level and a lot of us want better traction but the reviews of 100-250 tread wear tires focus on the lap times of 300 hp cars
Maybe car settings is simply adjusted to OEM tires where tracks tires require some specific adjustment. Them balancing effect on front and rear tires µ not meet the torque vectoring the OE is looking for Really many thanks for the channel, love it
The most fun our race team ever had was when we swapped race rubber for all-seasons. Of course it's not as fast, but every car we passed was a victory. Not all all-seasons will handle the continuous abuse of an endurance race, but some will.
How did your tires fare? I've noticed harder compound all-seasons can often shred, because they're not designed for high heat applications. Counterintuitive.
@@ultimatist It depends on the tire. Some tires can't take much heat, while others can take more heat than some race (200TW) tires. Drifters often use all-seasons on the rear. One of the most durable tires I've used was a 300TW. I don't know how to tell which ones will last and which will chunk. It's all trial and error, sadly.
This is something I’ve just been thinking about as I consider doing open track days in my stock street car. I’d like to use a low grip tire to reduce the wear on my car, but I’ve heard of some street tires not being up to the task of track use without tread separations and overheating. I’d like to even go to all season levels of grip, but those are certainly not typically track rated. I also wonder about response/feedback/manners.
I'm surprised not to see much more wear on the outside of the front tires if you're still on 100% stock suspension with little camber. My F87 M2 wore incredibly quickly without extra camber.
I'd like to see a chart that shows the best NVH rated tires and how they compare with safety related grip conditions (wet weather, temperature extremes, light snow, ice, soft snow, packed snow, etc) and tire wear. I don't need racing tires, in fact like regular tires for their lack of ultimate grip. I enjoy making the eco tires they put on the car new when I bought it but will be replacing them way before they wear out.
Great vid and as a fellow F8X owner excited to see you do more testing with this car!! Amazed there was that much difference in the lap times, were they the star marked MPS4S? I’ve run loads of different track tyres on mine, they all have their strengths and weaknesses but the star marked cup 2 from m2 can be bought cheaply (slightly used) and lap nearly as quick as ar-1/trofeo/ap52. Also last so much longer, don’t drop off much and are nice on road. Pretty amazing tyres and that’s in 245/265 M3/4.
No they were the aftermarket 4S. The * marked 4S in F8x sizes are actually the rear of a generic 3 series for the front axle and the front of the g series m3 for the rear axle.
Since Bridgestone is 1" smaller and the wall is bigger compared to MIchelin - maybe the reason is that Bridgestone is more "flexible" - something which can be seen in dragster start slow motion videos but of course with smaller effect . But this is just my guessing :D
Did you see any excessive wear on the front outer edge of the tires with stock camber? My M4 out there absolutely ate a set of old front tires after one session there and have been considering camber plates to help keep from destroying a new set of tires on track.
Surprisingly not on the Michelins and only a tiny amount on the Bridgestones, but I have found that shoulder wear can be extremely bad on other circuits and other cars. Camber plates are definitely a good idea, I have some
The outer tire wear is one of the few things that keeps me from running a 300 TW on track. I'd love to do it, for the dual use nature and better wear. My stock PSS star spec on my M2C started chunking the shoulder after 3 track days. I don't think it was abusive driving, and I would say I am well above average for pace. They were only 245 width though... I have Millway street camber plates now. Will see how wear is on my RE71RSs. Wonder how a 265/275 in the front would fair in a PSS or P4S.
You get higher acceleration at lower speeds and while in lower gears, so with the PS4S giving you less speed mid corner combined with the staggered setup allowing you to apply full throttle earlier than the square setup, maybe you see a higher peak rate of acceleration.
Is the street tire slipping more during launch? The track tire could be slightly bogging down the motor with too much grip, where the OE was tuned perfectly.
the slower acceleration could also root from the tyre deforming under load like they do on top fuel dragsters. the rim is lighter compared to the stock one, so it spins up faster, which might be fast enough to start spinning before the tyre does. therefore also maybe a mapping/diff situation. Not sure if someone already mentioned that fine content as always. keep the praise of the PS4S up, so I feel good about having them bolted to my E92 335D :) (R19, 225/255)
As always well done, good comparison with great insights of each tyre strenghts and weaknesses. I'd like a comment on tyre pressures used in both cases when doing those kind of tests/comparisons. Looking forward to a next video! 👌🔝
for context, I have a Mini Countryman. It handles well, but its max speed is realistically ~120 mph. If I buy a w/y/z speed rated tire, am I needlessly throwing away comfort? Often times the higher speed ratings are just what is available at the shop.
@@P911TS yeah, the stock discs are actually pretty decent though they can crack around the holes with a lot of track use. I boiled the bmw fluid very quickly, swapping to castrol CRF made the world of difference.
![This Is Why You Should Fit OE Tires To Your Car! [Michelin Pilot Sport 4S vs 4S*]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/COA630Juf_U/mqdefault.jpg)
![This Is Why You Should Fit OE Tires To Your Car! [Michelin Pilot Sport 4S vs 4S*]](/img/tr.png)
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Hey team Tyre Reviews, a pleasant reminder that Better Help is almost a scam. Their "therapists" aren't certified. They also allegedly sell user data to other tech companies, which do targetted advertisement based on it. That's just wrong in my personal opinion. There have been a lot of cases of poor service against them, with multiple UA-camrs also coming out against them. I understand that you might have missed the red flags as their motto seems very positive, but I wouldn't trust a corporation like that with my mental health. I know you guys don't mean harm, but just a note for next time.
Stay blessed y'all.
Hmmmmmmm!!
Really disappointed to see you supporting those scam artists. Five minutes of research into your potential sponsors and you wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. Ripping off people with mental health issues by selling them unqualified therapists and then selling their personal data is certainly wildly profitable, which is why Better Help can afford to pay creators so much, but frankly working with them just shows that you don't care about the harm you are doing to your audience. Do better. Unsubscribed.
No to betterhelp scam shilling. At this point everyone should be well aware this is a scam.
@@ChrisErwood money talks louder
I agree completely with your conclusions here. We used to run Boxster Spec cars and had a pair of them with identical setup, weight etc. We experimented with staggered 225/255 tires vs 255 square and got a lot of data over many track weekends. On fast tracks like Fontana or Laguna Seca the staggered setup was a bit faster with consistently higher speeds at the end of a long straight. We concluded that this may be a result of both rolling resistance and aero in high speed sections. On tighter courses with fewer long straights the 255 square setup was consistently faster with more grip in the corners.
Which tire should you choose? For HPDE as a novice or intermediate driver still working on skills and fundamentals, the Michelin 4S is a great choice as it is very responsive and turns quick laps consistently. For an advanced driver in AX or Time Trials where lap times really matter, the RE71RS is the ticket to the pointy end of the time sheet. At most weekend TT events we bring both. We run the 4S on Saturday and Sunday morning to wire the track and then switch to the RE71RS for 1-2 practice sessions and final Time Trial runs. This keeps us running at the front for each TT event of the season.
Cheers!
Good analysis 👍 I presume you also keep the Michelin 4S available for day 2 in case of rain?
How are you finding the wear on each?
Pushed harder the PS4S will tend to blister and tear on the shoulders especially on camber limited setups.
@@jmblur I've torn up shoulders of every type of tyre with stock camber and a high grip surface
Anybody ever try one brand/model for the front wheels and another brand/model for the rear wheels when staggering sizes?
The biggest advantage of track tires isn't just more speed but more predictability lap after lap, especially in warmer ambient temperatures.
Due to the increased speed and traction, the biggest disadvantage of track tires is brake fade and potentially overheating of the engine and drivetrain. These issues go up exponentially the faster you are.
Yup, did a grip build on my civic as a corner focus car and was testing with stock brakes.
They didnt last long at all, pushed my endless ss-s pads to the absolute limit.
TBH, street tires give much more predictability because they work at various temperatures and they don't overheat. A track focused tire only works at a very specific temperature, and then falls off fast after it gets too hot. With the Bridgestones you start out slow until heated up, then have a 3-4 lap window to set your fast times, after which they fall off hard. With the Michelins, your first lap and your 20th lap will be exactly the same.
@@saidtheblueknight Yup, you are 100% wrong. The RE-71RS tires are ready to go by the third or fourth corner, not lap. The downfall of street tires it the excess tread depth that causes tire squirm and causes heat. If you are uber slow, then street tires are ok. But anything over 8/10ths and the will get very hot, very unpredictable and start to chunk. The Michelins may have 3 or 4 fast laps in cool temps but in hot temps they may not even make it a few laps especially with a fast driver in something like a Mustang, Corvette, BMW or Porsche. Higher horsepower and weight makes the whole equation even worse.
@@saidtheblueknight Eh? Have you ever tracked the PS4S? They overheat very easily within 20 minutes on any car with a moderate amount of power (200hp+) even on a low speed track. They literally melt and chunk apart when you push on.
@@saidtheblueknight why are you talking when you've clearly never been on a racetrack? or maybe you have been but driving like a granny
wtf thats the whole point of track tires that you can do several laps without hurting them too much.
Also outside of these track tests, it would be cool to see the 2 tires going through the normal battery of wet and and dry tests.
It would have been interesting to see how the car would have performed with Pilot Sport 4S tires in a square setup with the 275 size on the Apex wheels.
It would have been, one for a different day!
Came to the comments to say the same. Especially considering precious videos where in similar situations it most likely would be been included, but I get it may have been a time limited thing. Looking forward to same setup in street vs track tires to see if the difference is still as drastic?
Square 275 PS4 wouldn’t do shit, rear end traction would just be worst. You do square setups with a really grippy 100-200TW
I would like to see a test like "Do you need extreme performance all seasons vs grand touring all seasons" like the DWS06+ vs Contiprocontact or like a Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ vs Primacy or MXM4
I can answer this- get the performance tires if you enjoy stopping, steering, or accelerating. In my 20 year old Saab station wagon with PSAS4’s I beat my friend’s BRZ with Primacy summers in SCCA autocross.
I used to have DWS/DWS06, my dad had pure contact- simply no comparison.
Is the life ~1/2 the touring tire? Yes.
I don’t care- I enjoy the drive, and good tires saved me form at least one accident in crazy Detroit traffic.
@lgunderso2117 curious about this because I'm getting new tires soon for my Genesis G70 and I've been super debating over PSAS4 or PS4S. It's my daily driver and everything I've seen on the all season tires looks like it has more than enough performance with the benefit of driving in the rain or sub 40 degree weather. Probably looking to do a little bit of SCCA at some point too.
I have the AWD version of the car is for some stupid reason they only offer it with primacy tires.
@@Hardcaslte primacy’s are garbage.
I just did an autocross in my ct5 blackwing with PS4S TPC (halfway between PS4S and cup 2)- it has far more grip than the PSAS4 but when driving in the dry this winter it was quite scary.
If it were me:
If you have dedicated winters, go for the PS4S.
If not, PSAS4.
I have 4 winters on my Blizzak WS90’s, they’re holding up quite well, 15k miles has worn them 3/32- I’d be ok leaving them on a little later than needed to endure no snow fell with PS4S.
I still love driving the PSAS4, great in the rain and not bad in snow, though I still have winter tires for that car- necessary here in Detroit for my critical commute.
@@lgunderso2117 Yeah every time I think about getting PS4S and start getting excited about it, I talk to someone like you and it's like buuutttt do I really need them? I live in the South where right now it's raining all the time, then I do trips to North Carolina about 3 times a year, which means I could end up in NC in the winter when it's like 30 degrees or colder some times...at that point I think it's not even worth taking my car if I had PS4S and just take my wife's Volvo lol. So the combination of rain down here and winter up there, I'm thinking PSAS4 is the right choice.
@@Hardcaslte if you need to rely on the car in temps under 40, and you can only have one set of tires, PSAS4 is the way to go.
Would love to see a comparison between AD09 vs RE71RS
me 2
Or Cup 2.
AD09 will be slower. A comparison between A052 and RE71RS is going to be much closer, with a slight edge going to the A052 in most situations.
Cup 2 is much slower than Re71rs
Cup 2 vs AD09 please… I wanna see how they hold up over 10-20laps and if you could repeat these sessions 4-8 times on each tyre and measure wear 🏎
I have two sets of wheels for my 718 Cayman - the OEM ones with PS4S, and the track/autocross wheels (-1" diameter) with RE71RS. The difference is truly night and day!
And what exactly is the biggest difference for you? Time or feel?
Same experience here in a 718 Cayman T. We went from the factory 20” wheels fitted with P Zero PZ4 to 19” Apex wheels fitted with RE71RS. Both time and feel are equally affected. Testing ground is Virginia International Raceway. P Zero PZ4 felt great, but they definitely talked backed to you if you tried to push for a quicker time. Average lap time for me was 2:16. The RE71RS have been my favorite track tire beside the Michelin Cup 2. Responsiveness is greatly improved and you can certainly brake later harder and accelerate sooner and more aggressively out of the corners. My average lap times on those are 2:11.
Loved it ❤️. I wish you will do more trackday tyres review (on both roard and track).
Good news, I've a few more coming!
@@tyrereviews can't wait !
I was impressed by the most heartfelt, honest, and earnest endorsement of counseling I have ever seen. Many need this important help. BRAVO to Jonathan and Better Health! Also, keep up the excellent reviews.
Been using VPR for almost 4 years (we are lucky to have it next to us, here in Greece), great tool and happy to see it advancing and apperaring in reputable productions/channels! Keep it up!
Amazing video as always, I would also be quite curious how Conti SC7 would of worked in this case also
Been thinking about going to the Bridgestone next. This definitely convinced me
I agree with your findings. On my GT4, I run PS4S in the OEM 245/295 sizes as well as RE71RS in 255/285 on a smaller 19" wheel. The PS4S are excellent on track, especially on cooler wet days we get in the PNW. But the RE71RS turn the car into a complete animal!
I just wish they had them in more sizes
Great test again, thank you. I was wondering what your view / explanation is for the following - on their website, Apex Wheels says about (E46) M3 track wheel recommendations "Note: 19" wheels aren't recommended in this section. Performance dictates that the smallest possible wheel diameter be used that clears the brakes [for track use]." - Why are 18" wheels recommended above 19" for track use? (apart from tyres being cheaper) is there a real performance / steering feel benefit in tracking 18" instead of 19"?
I believe that Grassroots Motorsport has done research on this.
I've driven the 4S and RE71RS on my 718S and the problem I ran into with the 4S is that I could chunk the outside shoulder on -1.8 Deg. of camber when used on tracks with banked turns with medium to high speed. The RE71RS holds up better over multiple sessions for me.
Interesting, I don't see a lot of chunking on the 4S but I'm sure it happens!
@@tyrereviews I'm the third person that I know of with this issue. Of course this is usually on a hot day in the California Desert! lol.
Thank you. I'm running ps4s at the moment and thinking of stepping up to conti force for my next tire. Love the content!
Do it!
I guess the best compromise for casual track day drivers would be a square setup with the 275 Pilot Sport 4s all around. You get the added benefit of more front grip, but the harder compound still takes the edge off, road and wet performance is probably better and you get a longer lasting tire.
Always gotta give a shoutout seeing my home track, Utah Motorsport Campus, being featured! I think one of the big things w/ track days and tires is what you can afford. Tracking a car is not cheap, even for low HP cars. If you've already got a solid summer tire it may not be financially viable to buy separate tires for 1 track day. Of course, if you've the means to go frequently then a dedicated tire is the way to go. Hell, I've tracked on all-seasons and it was still fun! Great vid as always and hoping I can run into the Smurf blue, last good looking BMW, one of these days.
The BMW is in a garage at UMC so it'll be on track a fair bit there!
I love it! East track is the best in my opinion! I have taken my Veloster N to their amateur track days on quite a few occasions and always get excited when we’re put on East track.
@@pichu766 if you've not run outer make sure you do, it's excellent!
anyone ever have issues running hard at that kinda elevation? i'd imagine you're down on power and heat management there. other than that and the air quality, SLC looks like a nice place to live and race
@@veganjoy The f80 does a pretty good job with both cooling and balancing power thanks to the turbo. It's something you have to keep in mind though when it's really hot.
I am considering one of the two tyres you tested for replacement after the stock PS4 on my GR86 are done.
Very useful info, and nicely done video!
Very well driven as well, almost 93% DS - crazy!
Thank you!
I hope it was useful!
I’ve had two sets of Michelin Pilot Sport 4s on my BMW M4 and I absolutely love them. They’re good looking, quiet, super in the wet and great in the dry. Very comfortable even on 20” wheels. On a previous set I actually had a nail in one and a screw in the other. Didn’t even know they were there until I got the new set mounted (never lost pressure in either tire). Can’t imagine running anything else. 👍🏁
Yeah, Bridgestones imho are garbage. Especially on track. Comparing potenza to ps4s anyway
I had 2 punctures in my 4S's on my GT350 that were large enough to hear the ticking of the nail/bolt head. I literally spun the wheels in first both times, shearing/flattening the head off and the 4S's have somehow continued to hold air perfectly after both scenarios... wild
I have a question unrelated to this video. As someone who avoids tracks, but will travel very long distances for twisty mountain roads, I have runflats under my car (Michelin PS 4). Just out of curiosity: how do the stiffer sidewalls on runflats affect the performance? From watching this channel I'd say that the stiffer sidewalls mean they should communicate better, but there is probably more to it. I am eager to learn.
Two months ago I wrecked all 4 tires on a mountain road in eastern Turkey and without runflats that would have been more a lot more adventurous. Now I just drove to the next town. Lesson learned: depots where they deposit sharp rocks from landslides can look quite similar to unpaved parking lots, but differences do matter. 😁
I does.
A female deers
English isn't my first language
@@tyrereviews he is saying he does need track tires.
Gotta love an f80 Jon, but it’s a heavy bus and a strong sidewall is essential. I recommend trying the BMW star rated Pirelli p zero. They’re built like tanks and put up with a huge amount of abuse, even with an f80 on top of them. They aren’t the quickest tyre, but they’re superb fun, consistent and work well in the wet, with a wear rate that doesn’t destroy the wallet.
Ask the ring guys why they run them lap after lap!
Good to know, i know the P Zero gets a lot of negative online compared to the Michelin but I've always enjoyed Pirelli tires.
What sizes are the star rated P Zero?
@@dannyyin9663 The F series runs 255/35 R19 front and 275/35 R19 rears, though buying * tires is a bit of a minefield!
@@dannyyin9663 current OEM sizes in star marked tyres are good for f80
@@tyrereviews yeah the current oem star p zeros are a great compound, and not to be confused with a standard p zero. I actually run a set on my mx5 as well, and they look new after 10 track days, in spite of putting in near cup2 levels of pace.
I have a set of Bridgestone Potenza RE-71RS on my Abarth 595. It's little more than a Go Kart at 995kg, but it does have 300hp through the front wheels, which causes traction issues. These tyres are night and day compared to the stock Michelin's and the Bridgestone RE003's.
Nice :) Get a review on www.tyrereviews.com/submit.htm?match=Bridgestone-Potenza-RE-71RS---Tyre-reviews-and-ratings
F I N A L L Y!!! A new track tire video with my car with the answers I need!!! Need more NEW
It very depends on vehicle power, i have PS4's on my 330ci and im barely able to slide it, stickier tyres would be absplute overkill 😅
I street drive only. but I do appreciate what little info I might be able to apply to my circumstance.. what I really want is info on what brands consistently balance out more easily, which I think would be universally appreciated.
I made the mistake of dropping off my wheels to get my new high line Goodyear tires mounted and went to lunch. I should have stood by and watched on something that important to me. When I came back, it looked like there was a bet to see how many wheel weights could possibly be used.
balance, the quality of the build, is more important to me than absolute performance, except in an emergency, because I am old and only tour.
I ended up buying my own balancer as I too get upttight about a good balance.
Any comparison between cup 2r and others soon? Would be interesting to see if any are quicker or cheaper tyres come close.
Would be nice to have your try the Falken RS820, as they made a more proper sporty tire.
I'm very excited to try that!
Looks like it is only available in 19" and up, unlike the FK520 from 17" and up. When the Potenza Sport is available from 16" and up (including the 205/55R16 & 225/50R16 combo for old 911s and old Honda S2000s) and the Potenza RE004 is available from 14" (!!!!) and up, perfect for NA MX-5s or classic AE86s or maybe some Kei cars, that's quite frustrating. The Potenza RE004 starts at a 165/55R14 72V, which is a great effort by Bridgestone IMO.
On my Audi TTS mk3, the RE-71-RS cured a lot of the understeer as well. I run 20" PS4S and 18" RE71-RS for autocross. The PS4S I use below 50F or when too wet for the RE71-RS. This makes the expensive PS4S last a long time. Would have liked a price comparison with a 19" square setup for your PS4S'.
Glad you like them, how much faster are you on them?
@@tyrereviews Since the autocross courses vary, I'll compare FTOTD to an experienced guy who is usually faster than me in warm conditions, in June/August at events in Packwood, WA with a course that is 60 to 69 seconds long. He drives a stock 2006 Cayman with RE71-RS. My car is also stock. In 2022 on PS4S I was 2 seconds slower the first day, 2.5 slower the next. In 2023, first year on RE71-RS I was 1.8 seconds slower the first day, 1.1 slower the next. This year I was 0.9 seconds slower the first day, 1.1 slower the next. They may be worth time more as I get better.
Once again creating a remarkable video that features intriguing and unconventional comparisons. Your work is truly excellent, Jonathan. Please continue to produce such outstanding content.
Tire grip and rolling resistance is what caused the slower acceleration. I’ve come to the same conclusion.
On a 1/4 mile racetrack where there is traction compound and drag radials my car does a slower 60-130 time when compared to when it’s on pavement that doesn’t have traction compound and the vehicle is equipped with those same Michelin PS4S. The stickiness of the compound and slightly wider tires (275 drag radials vs 265 summer tires) makes a difference. The front wheels and tires were the same.
I have a 01 firebird formula that runs Potenza Sport and RE-71RS on two identical sets of wheels...the acceleration difference is noticable even on the street. Off the line, they both have outstanding traction. I can do a 4k clutch dump in either and dead hook. By the end of first gear, the acceleration difference is notable. You feel like you lose speed between gear changes with the RE-71RS while the Potenza Sport "glides" between shifts. You feel the difference in gear acceleration as well, particularly at higher speeds. Its gotta be the rolling resistance in my opinion. That and the weight, all the weight of the RE-71RS is on the the shoulders and the most rubber is right on the center of tread, its the furthest away from center of mass. The design is why it corners and feels so solid but its also creating the most inertia.
I want to hook up a draggy and do some in gear acceleration tests to take launch and shifting out of the equation. Id also like to see how long it takes to shed speed back to back...for example going from 60mph to 20mph coasting on both tires
Great review Jonathan! I think as still a very occasional track driver I'm better sticking to the 4S or similar. I like the fact they can take a bit of abuse on track and still drive home intact.
Hey Jon, the understeer may be a function of the stock suspension as much as it is the staggered wheel and tire size. The F80 begs for aftermarket coilovers.
They're on the way!
Sounds about right, 4 laps or so before the PS4S overheats
Finally the M3 test car, I've been waiting for it since the announcement of E92 M3 for track testing a few years back. I hope for a lot more content also about modding the car.
thanks for continuing to produce great videos. literally watch them all and rewatch for reference even more
For balance it would have been good to try a square setup on the street tyre too.
What were your cold and hot tire pressures? I experienced more sidewall roll over and outer shoulder wear on the PS4S.
7-years of tracking the F8X platform taught me that 275 are not enough on the rear axle, the S55 just has too much torque for those tires. A 275-305/35R18 setup is what worked the best for me.
How does the balance feel compares to 275 square? I'd hate to put understeer back into it.
@@tyrereviews Could pretty easily run 295 square on a F80 if you got camber plates.
@@tyrereviews With a good track alignment, the balance was perfect. Like you, I also tend to prefer a car that is slightly loose to get good rotation on corner entry. With a square 275 setup, I had to do significant throttle management on corner exit, which did not allow me to fully exploit the strong mid-range of the S55. The 305 in the rear solved that and shaved almost 2 seconds off my lap times at my local track (on a ~1:50min lap).
@@Ganserndorf9411 insane! That's huge.
I got the competition model f82 which comes with 285 in the rears as stock, did you find any fitment issues/any changes you needed to do going from 275 to 305? Or was it just a case of plug and play?
@@supaahflyy Straight fit with dedicated track wheels. I used Apex wheels, 18x10 front and 18x11 rear.
Really wanted to see this comparison and wouldn’t want anyone else to do it. Thank you!
Currently it’s better to get ContiSport 7 all around for superb grip and wet handling plus trackday tire for trackdays.
Unless you want to heavily compromise, this is the best setup
How's the wear of the conti across multiple sessions?
@@tyrereviews Bad. Actually I will send mine to be examined by conti, because on the very first trackday, front tires experienced fatigue of side thread.
@@pazera66 :(
PS4S just doesnt last on track for me. It gets greasy and slidey way too quickly. Its pretty good on a wet track though, so ill drive there on the street PS4S set up then switch to an F1SS if it is dry, or leave the Michelins on if its wet, so i find thats quite a good compromise.
I know in Europe it isn’t the same as North America for category options, but I’d love to see comparisons on ultra-high performance all-seasons against regular all-season and/or touring tyres. I’m personally comparing Pilot Sport All Season 4 to Continental ContiProContact (oem), and Goodyear Assurance Maxlife for my daily driver integra. Trying to find out how much more wet traction and stopping distance the faster tread wear of uhp buys me.
Just get the PSAS4 and find out for yourself. You get what you pay for. It might not be worth the price difference for you, but it is a really good tire.
@SayAhh The price is fairly comparable for all of those in my area, the Michelin and Goodyear were both about 10-15% more than Continental. It's just that with one you're paying for performance and the other you're paying for longevity. I will probably go Michelin because I want the assurance of as much wet stopping traction as I can reasonably get, but I'm curious how much performance you're trading that longevity for and how far apart the high performance all season/all weather categories are from the normal or long life all season/all weather.
I'm curious about a comparison between the PS4S and the all new Falken Azenis RS820, those are pretty grippy on my Lexus IS-F.
You've tried them? Let me know what you think and also please put a review on www.tire-reviews.com/Tire/Falken/Azenis-RS820.htm :)
We missed you...
💖
The better acceleration could be due to a lower rotational moment of inertia. Moment of inertia goes a step further than just 'weight of the wheel' and looks at how hard it is to accelerate. You could test it with a sort of reverse dyno setup where you see how quickly the wheel can be spun up to a certain rpm from a standstill with an electric motor supplying a controlled amount of power.
I love my re71rs tyres on my race car. They switch on instantly.
I would love to see episode about tire pressures and see how much tire behavior and flex changes with different pressures.
Awesome video as always appreciate all the time and effort you put in as you can tell you’re passionate about reporting accurate information. Question, hypothetically, speaking, based on your experience with all these tires, how would the BMW OEM spec Michelin “Star” pilot 4S have done in this test?
For *-marked tires, you can only get the Michelin Pilot Super Sport for the F80's OEM 19" wheels.
@@dannyyin9663 well that’s weird. I’m running 255/35/19 pilot sport 4S ⭐️on my 19 x 8 1/2 wheels on a set up 2012 Hyundai Sonata. This is my second set and they’re absolutely awesome. here is the Michelin order information..
255 /35 R19 96Y XL BSW BM
Item #39579. My local discount tire dealership gets them for me with no issue or worries.
My theory would be that the wider front tyres and them being stiffer also means they are heavier. (stiffer=heavier construction?)
That bit of more weight can already make a tiny bit of difference in accelleration i think.
They apex are slightly lighter overall but different weight distribution.
The only data I have to back up my claims would be seat of the pants feel. I’ve driven a car with the RE71RS fitted for HPDE events and we’ve been playing with wheel sizing a bit. Our recent discovery has been rim width. We found that 245/35-19 on an 8 inch rim was less responsive. We were always waiting for the front of the car to catch up. This past weekend we tried 245/35-19 on a 9 inch rim which was much more responsive and shifted the balance from what I would describe as understeer to neutral. Turn in was crisp and no waiting for the front. Best guess is less side wall flex. 🤷🏻♂️ Test mule is a 718 Cayman T
yep, the more you can stretch the sidewalls, the better the steering response will be
I know for me - assuming you can dial out excessive understeer equally in either case - tires with LESS overall grip are MORE fun. Not as fast of course, but more fun. And better for beginners to learn on. The first thing I tell new track drivers is not to run out and buy track tires right away. Learn to get the most out of the lesser tires first. It will make you a better driver.
Great reviews. I have a Porsche Cayman 718 GT4 which came with Dunlop Race Maxx2 from the factory, most of my driving is done on Scottish country roads rather than the track what would you recommend?
I have ps4s for daily and re71rs for track work. Very noticeble in grip and lap time. It's huge fun to use re71rs in the wet though :)
Thank you for the great video! Any idea if we'll look into how summer and winter tyres deal with rough asphalt in the summer dry and wet? I am eagerly awaiting any data on that topic!
Great video thanks as always.
Just a couple of things:
Why at the conclusion you say a street tire would have more longevity on the track? It would be heat soaked in a couple of laps and start to destroy itself with overheating thus giving you a lower lifespan than a more track oriented tire.
I know this videos take a lot of time and are expensive and time consuming but I think this test would need a road assessment too.
What is the use of a semi slick tire that gets warm in half a lap but overheats after 5 or 6 laps? Vice versa what is the use of a semi slick on the road if a PS4 is faster on the street?
Probably it's due to driving style and car performance my example and I'm very happy:
Bmw M235i BM3 stg2
225F and 245R
Yokohama Advan sport v107 for street
Nankang ar1 for the track
Both tires in my opinion and from your tests are very resistant to high temperatures even though when they are cold they don't handle the best. But can last long spirited drive on the road or a full track day with sessions of 30 minutes non stop.
Probably my issue is due to the fact that my tires are small for the power I'm pushing and are over stressed I will test on upsizing both front and rear but would like to change too much the balance of the car as it's nice and playful on acceleration and it's very balanced once all 4 wheels slide in fast corners.
In this case with the Bridgestone being a super200 it's heat management isn't that much better than the PS4S, and the huge amount of extra starting tread depth on the Michelin means I think it would last longer assuming you're managing both tyres, but I haven't tested this so I might be wrong.
How many more months or years until the PSS5 become available across broad sizes.
Awesome video, thanks.
Love to see more track day tyres tested.
For the acceleration, i bet on rolling resistance.
When i went from normal tyres to michelin supersport, i went down in topspeed from 248km/h to 245 (gps speed)
With my nankang ar-1 i am glad if i make 240😅
As long as the tires can handle the acceleration grip, the less resistance the faster you are.
Same for wider or stickier tyres and lap times
Given how wide the performance window of the new re71rs is, as well as how civilized it is, I would love to see an extended long-weekend road trip style comparison between the 71rs, the ps4s, and one or two more tires.
No need to focus much on outright pace, just weigh the driving pleasure and heat tolerance against longevity, wet performance, etc
Another great review as always. I'm always curious about the absolute opposite of these types of tires, the comfort-focused tires, such as the Comfort Contact, which haven't made an appearance on the channel yet. Summer tires often gear towards performance, but what if we're looking for tires for grandpa / grandma?
I like how the car comes alive and becomes more of a race car with the Potenza track day tyres! Fun video. 😁 On a wet track day would the Michelin road tyre be the better choice?
Yeah i think so, the RE71RS is excellent in the wet for its category but I think the Michelin would be easier to drive and certainly better in standing water.
I've used 71RS in the wet and won my category, and felt very confident. Don't think I'd go as hard with the 4S in the same conditions.
@@warboyrb you sound like a seasoned racer, I think in general for 99% of people the 4S's are a much safer option. Maybe the 71r are good but every other summer tire is atrocious in the wet
Regarding G’s during acceleration, where you running DSC + TC off? With the square set-up, you may have experienced more power cut-off from the ECU out of corners
We have also been using VPRating for data acquisition, a great tool for monitoring not only the vehicle dynamics but the driving performance as well!! 92 is a great driving score, well done!!! 💪
Glad you enjoy it too, nice little system and the developers are great.
Great video, I just wish you would have compared size for size, wheel for wheel.
After a track day should you clean off the rubber worms on the tyre and if so how? Always wondered how it would affect wet grip when back on real road conditions. Have SC7 on 720s and they’re very good in winter and wet but too bubble gummy on the track.
You know I've never really studied it. Back in the UK I'd find a quiet roundabout and build up moderate lateral g and t he tires would clean themselves, though they never quite looked this bad.
I wonder if the peak acceleration could be a matter of the tire carcass, maybe the softer structure of the Michelin played better with the chassis/traction control?
Could be! As far as I understand, soft structure = better longitudinal grip (drag racing tyres being the extreme case, they are very, very flexible) whereas stiff structure = better lateral grip (at least in dry conditions).
My understanding is that even the Michelin Cup 2 still has a more flexible structure than the Potenza RE71RS, due to the different philosophy of the two tyre manufacturers. 🤔
The Michelins only lasted 1 day, 6 twenty minute sessions on my c8 Vette. The fronts ran out quick. Possibly alignment.
275/35/18 front 295/35/18 rear combo is great for this chassis
I'll give it a try!
I have a theory - the centrifugal forces on the rotating tire at those high speeds make it want to bulge outward and depending on compound stiffness, (softer for track tires), there is higher deformation on track tires, which means the dynamic rolling resistance is greater than the static rolling resistance
What tire pressure are you running on the PS4S? Cold at the start and when up to temp?
24 cold 30 hot
@@tyrereviews that appears to be relatively low (esp. considering the weight of the car). How do you determine the lowest hot pressure you can run?
Anecdotal observation between these tires on my Civic Type R. The rolling resistance aspect is pretty noticeable even in daily driving situation. RE71RS for me is specifically autoX tires and I'd be carrying them on separate wheels and swap at the event. I used the autoX tires early on to drive on the road just to get them some mileage prior to event and compare the MPG between stock PS4S to those(slightly wider, 275 vs 265) is about 3.5 MPG consistently. I'd say you can even feel the car takes more throttle input to get it going and maintain speed on the highway.
Love for you to review some hankooks newer range of tyres the s1 evo z k129 UUHP / AT2 xtreme rf12 / Rc10 XT / Ra43 HPX / Rt05 MT2 / k135 prime 4
A few ideas regarding the acceleration differences, keeping in mind I'm just spit balling here...
Firstly, are the tires the same circumference? The Michelin looks bigger somehow. We are almost certainly not restricted by torque, so is a bigger tire able to convert more of the torque into usable power?
Secondly, sidewall. Which combined with...
Third, a more forgiving tire compound. Which like the sidewall leads to...
And lastly Traction Control.
Basically I'm wondering if the smaller and more flexible sidewall is making it easier for the car to maintain grip under acceleration. Maybe the car can detect and then compensate for grip faster. Or perhaps with more flex in the compound the pulses of power put through the driveline from the engine are less jarring. (look into moto gp engine firing orders for a rabbit hole on this...)
You also mention that the rear tires on the Bridgestone didn't fire up as quickly as the fronts, and that they also fell off before your quick laps. What TC settings were being used? Maybe the Ego dial needs a twist? An M3 isn't really on the same level as the GTI....
Anyone else have ideas?
I went back to back with these two on my STI (at UMC as well). I started with the PS4S and after one ATD track night and was very disappointed in how quickly they fell off and turned to mush after 3 laps. They absolutely need cooldown laps. They also didn't have near the turn-in feel that I was after either. AMAZING for a daily driver, but I do not think they're really up to actual track duty.
I've been loving the RE71RS.
I’m happy to see that F80 in the back as your new test car. Can you come up with some street tires for 600+ horsepower cars? Something that shows wet traction and dry traction from a dig or a roll? MP4S tires spin on cars at this HP level and a lot of us want better traction but the reviews of 100-250 tread wear tires focus on the lap times of 300 hp cars
Maybe car settings is simply adjusted to OEM tires where tracks tires require some specific adjustment.
Them balancing effect on front and rear tires µ not meet the torque vectoring the OE is looking for
Really many thanks for the channel, love it
The most fun our race team ever had was when we swapped race rubber for all-seasons. Of course it's not as fast, but every car we passed was a victory. Not all all-seasons will handle the continuous abuse of an endurance race, but some will.
How did your tires fare? I've noticed harder compound all-seasons can often shred, because they're not designed for high heat applications. Counterintuitive.
@@ultimatist It depends on the tire. Some tires can't take much heat, while others can take more heat than some race (200TW) tires. Drifters often use all-seasons on the rear. One of the most durable tires I've used was a 300TW. I don't know how to tell which ones will last and which will chunk. It's all trial and error, sadly.
why not use in both cases michelins? would make a lot more sense comparing the PS4s with the cup2s
I've compared those multiple times before.
@@tyrereviews makes sense, lovely videos
This is something I’ve just been thinking about as I consider doing open track days in my stock street car. I’d like to use a low grip tire to reduce the wear on my car, but I’ve heard of some street tires not being up to the task of track use without tread separations and overheating. I’d like to even go to all season levels of grip, but those are certainly not typically track rated. I also wonder about response/feedback/manners.
Thanks for the video, are u able to compare fire hawk Indy 500s to high end uhp tires
I'll certainly try!
I'm surprised not to see much more wear on the outside of the front tires if you're still on 100% stock suspension with little camber. My F87 M2 wore incredibly quickly without extra camber.
Yeah I was too, I don't think UMC is the highest grip track so that spares the shoulders
I'd like to see a chart that shows the best NVH rated tires and how they compare with safety related grip conditions (wet weather, temperature extremes, light snow, ice, soft snow, packed snow, etc) and tire wear.
I don't need racing tires, in fact like regular tires for their lack of ultimate grip. I enjoy making the eco tires they put on the car new when I bought it but will be replacing them way before they wear out.
Great vid and as a fellow F8X owner excited to see you do more testing with this car!! Amazed there was that much difference in the lap times, were they the star marked MPS4S?
I’ve run loads of different track tyres on mine, they all have their strengths and weaknesses but the star marked cup 2 from m2 can be bought cheaply (slightly used) and lap nearly as quick as ar-1/trofeo/ap52. Also last so much longer, don’t drop off much and are nice on road. Pretty amazing tyres and that’s in 245/265 M3/4.
No they were the aftermarket 4S. The * marked 4S in F8x sizes are actually the rear of a generic 3 series for the front axle and the front of the g series m3 for the rear axle.
Since Bridgestone is 1" smaller and the wall is bigger compared to MIchelin - maybe the reason is that Bridgestone is more "flexible" - something which can be seen in dragster start slow motion videos but of course with smaller effect . But this is just my guessing :D
Did you see any excessive wear on the front outer edge of the tires with stock camber? My M4 out there absolutely ate a set of old front tires after one session there and have been considering camber plates to help keep from destroying a new set of tires on track.
Surprisingly not on the Michelins and only a tiny amount on the Bridgestones, but I have found that shoulder wear can be extremely bad on other circuits and other cars. Camber plates are definitely a good idea, I have some
The outer tire wear is one of the few things that keeps me from running a 300 TW on track. I'd love to do it, for the dual use nature and better wear.
My stock PSS star spec on my M2C started chunking the shoulder after 3 track days. I don't think it was abusive driving, and I would say I am well above average for pace. They were only 245 width though...
I have Millway street camber plates now. Will see how wear is on my RE71RSs. Wonder how a 265/275 in the front would fair in a PSS or P4S.
Good to see you again! Been a while!
Still waiting for OE S5 review! Guess still not released?
Sadly not :(
You get higher acceleration at lower speeds and while in lower gears, so with the PS4S giving you less speed mid corner combined with the staggered setup allowing you to apply full throttle earlier than the square setup, maybe you see a higher peak rate of acceleration.
Is the street tire slipping more during launch? The track tire could be slightly bogging down the motor with too much grip, where the OE was tuned perfectly.
the slower acceleration could also root from the tyre deforming under load like they do on top fuel dragsters. the rim is lighter compared to the stock one, so it spins up faster, which might be fast enough to start spinning before the tyre does. therefore also maybe a mapping/diff situation.
Not sure if someone already mentioned that
fine content as always. keep the praise of the PS4S up, so I feel good about having them bolted to my E92 335D :) (R19, 225/255)
Another interesting video.
Have you sampled Falken’s RS820 yet?
As always well done, good comparison with great insights of each tyre strenghts and weaknesses.
I'd like a comment on tyre pressures used in both cases when doing those kind of tests/comparisons.
Looking forward to a next video! 👌🔝
For spirited driving on a rs3 which should i get
@tyrereviews Do you have an in depth video going over how things like speed rating, load range, etc can impact comfort?
for context, I have a Mini Countryman. It handles well, but its max speed is realistically ~120 mph. If I buy a w/y/z speed rated tire, am I needlessly throwing away comfort? Often times the higher speed ratings are just what is available at the shop.
Nice Video, which Brake setup are you using?
Pagid RS29s and a turner motorsport floating disc. I love the pagid but don't bother with the turner discs.
@@tyrereviews thanks for sharing. Would you say Upgrade Pads with stock brakes makes sense?
@@P911TS yeah, the stock discs are actually pretty decent though they can crack around the holes with a lot of track use. I boiled the bmw fluid very quickly, swapping to castrol CRF made the world of difference.
is there a test on studded/ non studded winter tires for trailers?
I'm having a hard time finding information.
I've not seen one, sorry
I think you mistyped the title of the video. Do instead of Does.
Yes, it turns out I'm an idiot
I thought he was going gangsta! Should have ended the title with brap, brap, brap.
@@disarchitectedor, "brap brap brap bruv".
@@tyrereviewsThought you'd slipped into your Ian Wright persona 😅
Does we*
Great review as always