I am the very proud owner of an Eppelsbeim contrabass clarinet. Devastating to hear of his passing, and grateful to hear a solid continuity plan was in place.
Contraforte player here. After i changed playing the contrabassoon to contraforte in my bassoon quartett, the whole dynamic range of our ensemble changed. There was no need for a special care for some passages which could be difficult on the contra, nor dynamic adjustments because some range issues or timbres sounding harsh. With the CF you can play almost anything. Nowdays i prepare a so called "favorite songs" CD which includes well known songs from Purcell, Schubert and Schumann. Try to imagine how the contraforte play the Erlkönig (Erlking) with the famous piano accompaniment . Got excited?
I once heard an orchestra from Hamburg perform Messiaen's _Des Canyons aux Étoiles_, and was astonished to hear how tellingly powerful their contrabassoon was. I was sitting in the high balcony of a very large auditorium, and this thing had a commanding presence even when heard from that far away. I'm convinced that this must have been a Contraforte. Many French composers preferred the contrabass sarrusophone to the French contrabassoon, and it is said that the sarrusophone is intended even when their scores specify "contrebasson." I've seen a French orchestration method whose entry on the French contrabassoon is simply a list of its many faults, followed by the entry on the sarrusophone which praises the instrument for its superior power, evenness and agility, citing as its only fault a weak high range. The Contraforte appears to be an ultimate solution, in that it has the power, evenness and agility of the sarrusophone, plus a stronger and much higher-reaching upper range. Also, its timbre is more truly bassoon-like, whereas the sarrusophone sounds something like a narrow-bore saxophone.
It’s indeed rare for the classical music scene to accept an innovation this quickly. When was the last time a completely new instrument was included in the typical symphonic orchestra? Even the saxophone still seems to be frowned upon!
I think it’s more an admission of the contrabassoon being a completely obsolete instrument than the ContraForte being accepted quickly. The contraforte is superior in every possible way. Saxophones suffer from their successes outside of classical music where they are admittedly (im a clarinetist) superior to most instruments they displaced (ie Clarinets in Marching bands, jazz and even pop). Tonally, Saxophones are more towards double reeds thanks to their conical bore so they won’t displace clarinets in classical and compete with the double reeds while having none of the velvety quality of the oboe/bassoon group. Of the Wolf/Eppelsheim instruments, i am looking forward to see if Lupophone and Bass Oboes can finally kill the medieval bassoons. That would be the adoption to measure all the other ones.
@@rashakor Interesting points. The fact that saxophones are not that so good at being lyrically soft is indeed a handicap, although partly based on fashionable assumptions. See Debussy’s underestimated concerto. If performed well it can be very subtle.
@@marcbrasse747 Don’t get me wrong, Saxophone ensembles in chamber music yield wonderful interpretations and have no less lyrical depth than the other woodwinds. But the same way that I wouldn’t bring a sousaphone (or any other loud, brash bass brass, lol BBB) to play baroque chamber music, a saxophone (a loud brash bass brass clarinet) feels out of place in anything classical (heck even clarinets are mostly out of place and character in their upper registers in anything pre-Mozart). OTOH, the Contraforte does everything the Contrabassoon does better, up and down the scale and in the entirety of the lyrical range hence the rather swift displacement (not just adoption).
As a composer I certainly prefer this sound in my orchestrations over the traditional contrabassoon. The dynamic range is especially an advantage. With a regular contrabassoon, you might opt to avoid the indelicate rattle of contabassoon in thinner/quieter textures. This opens up more applications on both ends of the dynamic range.
I'll be honest: I don't like the sound of the contrabassoon. But the contraforte has a very rich sound, and I like it. I am able to accept the contraforte as a substitute of the contrabassoon in the orchestra.
Wow. What a sound! I already love the Tubax. Looking forward to the first commission to write for an orchestra with a contraforte. And by the way, enjoy your video's a lot!
I've always loved the contrabassoon but they are extremely expensive. Since I like to know the price of everything (though not the value of nothing), I did a quick search and found a contraforte for about 55,000 €. In contrast, I found an Amati contrabassoon for about 20,000 €. The latter price is about what a good grand piano or concert harp costs. I'm afraid I probably won't get to play a contraforte in this life, but a contrabassoon might still be in the cards. I'm always open for experimentation in the field of instrument making, though ideally I prefer performances of older music on period instruments. However, that's not always practical. Judging by the video, this instrument sounds great.
Hmm. Is there a woodwind quintet that uses one? Better yet, a WWQ that uses various family members of each instrument so every one gets to explore the full range of their respective families.
Wolf unfortunately removed it from their website, probably for that exact reason. I remember seeing Bret Newton talk about it, and he said it almost sounded like a saxophone (most certainly nothing like a bassoon)
Does the increased high end of this instrument obviate (at least somewhat) a dedicated contra player's need to switch to regular bassoon to play higher parts with the other bassoons?
I'm not a fan of the contraforte in the great orchestra. Though it is a kind of good contrabassoon, I don't think that it is destinct enough to have serious advantages. It is still not an evil bass beast but much more a subtle colour woodwind like the modern contrabassoon always truely has been. Instead of having the contraforte replacing the contrabassoon, I would find it much more interesting if one would build a second instrument wich exaggerates the features of the contraforte but sacrifices the high register completely and really goes for a brutally wide bore and a loud and cutting forte between C1 und C3. Kind of a reinvented great bass shawm. The contraforte still can not rival the effect of trombone and tuba in the bass of a orchestral tutti- but if it can't it kind of does not deliver on it's promise and should be the most usefull for medium sized wind groups or excelling as an ensemble instrument because of it's wide range. For orchestral purposes, I never could understand the focus Eppelsheim/Wolf were laying on surpassing the high register of older double bass woodwinds. Same for the Eb Tubax, why must it be so small just to have an excellent high register? The bassoon and the baritone Sax already have good high registers. What I would want from a modern orchestral double bass reed is only a low range that is as solid as possible so it can change the perception of the entire orchestral tutti bass towards more defined and bright.
It reminds me more of a Sarrusophone than anything. The contraforte seems like a well-made... let's call it "reed contrabass". The upper register has an intonation and clarity that the contrabassoon simply doesn't have. But outside of that, this is not a replacement for the contrabassoon. Contra is a very tough instrument to tame, and is indeed littered with design issues, but this just seems to have taken away so much of the soul and color of the instrument. The woman in the video says how "defined and centered" the sound is; those are a couple of the very last words I would use to describe what I just heard. Truly, I don't hate this sound, but it is very bright, somewhat hollow. I think large concert bands and contemporary music have found a wonderful new tool, but this cannot replace this... ua-cam.com/video/ErqOvGQokQI/v-deo.html
Historical instruments have been replaced by more modern ones all along music history - Baroque music only recently has been played on historicist instruments after its revival in the 19th century. The ophicleide, which was the original bass brass in early 29th century music, quickly was replaced by the tuba. And orchestras today rarely play the ventil-less French horn when it comes to Mozart.
The contrafortes I have previously heard recordings of sound more like a subcontrabass oboe than a contrabassoon, as if they were different instruments covering the same compass (actually more for the contraforte, but close enough). This one sounds in between, with contrabassoon sound in the very low register, and then becoming more like an oboe a short way up. I understand that normally it is played with its own reed, but that it is also possible to use a contrabassoon reed on it -- maybe that makes the difference?
There seems to be some kind of high-end "slappiness" that presents itself in the extreme lower register of the instrument. I honestly find it very unpleasantly distracting.
I'm a compoſer. This is really neat, and I definitely would like to learn moꝛe about thoſe guys' other inſtruments thou didſt mention. I am very impꝛeſſed with the range and tone of the inſtrument as well as the dynamic range. I do not think I haue euer heard of this thing befoꝛe. One queſtion I haue is, How are the chꝛomatic notes, and the holes foꝛ them, tuned? Actually foꝛ the whole inſtrument, are they drilled foꝛ 12 tone equal temperament? She mentioneth it hath better intonation, but which intonation is ſhe referring to? Pythagoꝛean? 12 tet? And if it is Pythagoꝛean, are the chꝛomatic notes tuned as ſharps oꝛ flats, oꝛ ſome mean between them? I only compoſe in and foꝛ Pythagoꝛean Iuſt Intonation, oꝛ what I ſimply call True Intonation, ſo it is impoꝛtant to know if theſe inſtruments are ſet vp to be able to play in tune naturally, oꝛ if there is ſome degree of bending in one direction oꝛ the other that the player muſt do to reach the iuſt notes, foꝛ eample to differenetiate between C# and Db.
many professional contrabassoonists would beg to differ, it is rapidly gaining traction in the US and has been on stage with the Chicago Symphony many times already this year....
I am the very proud owner of an Eppelsbeim contrabass clarinet. Devastating to hear of his passing, and grateful to hear a solid continuity plan was in place.
Contraforte player here. After i changed playing the contrabassoon to contraforte in my bassoon quartett, the whole dynamic range of our ensemble changed. There was no need for a special care for some passages which could be difficult on the contra, nor dynamic adjustments because some range issues or timbres sounding harsh. With the CF you can play almost anything.
Nowdays i prepare a so called "favorite songs" CD which includes well known songs from Purcell, Schubert and Schumann. Try to imagine how the contraforte play the Erlkönig (Erlking) with the famous piano accompaniment . Got excited?
This is insane. So many times did I want an extra instrument in those lower registers to have the ability to sing like this.
I once heard an orchestra from Hamburg perform Messiaen's _Des Canyons aux Étoiles_, and was astonished to hear how tellingly powerful their contrabassoon was. I was sitting in the high balcony of a very large auditorium, and this thing had a commanding presence even when heard from that far away. I'm convinced that this must have been a Contraforte.
Many French composers preferred the contrabass sarrusophone to the French contrabassoon, and it is said that the sarrusophone is intended even when their scores specify "contrebasson." I've seen a French orchestration method whose entry on the French contrabassoon is simply a list of its many faults, followed by the entry on the sarrusophone which praises the instrument for its superior power, evenness and agility, citing as its only fault a weak high range.
The Contraforte appears to be an ultimate solution, in that it has the power, evenness and agility of the sarrusophone, plus a stronger and much higher-reaching upper range. Also, its timbre is more truly bassoon-like, whereas the sarrusophone sounds something like a narrow-bore saxophone.
It’s indeed rare for the classical music scene to accept an innovation this quickly. When was the last time a completely new instrument was included in the typical symphonic orchestra? Even the saxophone still seems to be frowned upon!
I would say the adoption of the modern bass trombone in the 50s is the closest thing to the Contraforte's accepptance really
@@mixedstaples8030 good one. Hasn’t thought about that one. Has it by now been accepted so widely that every symphonic orchestra has it?
I think it’s more an admission of the contrabassoon being a completely obsolete instrument than the ContraForte being accepted quickly. The contraforte is superior in every possible way.
Saxophones suffer from their successes outside of classical music where they are admittedly (im a clarinetist) superior to most instruments they displaced (ie Clarinets in Marching bands, jazz and even pop). Tonally, Saxophones are more towards double reeds thanks to their conical bore so they won’t displace clarinets in classical and compete with the double reeds while having none of the velvety quality of the oboe/bassoon group.
Of the Wolf/Eppelsheim instruments, i am looking forward to see if Lupophone and Bass Oboes can finally kill the medieval bassoons. That would be the adoption to measure all the other ones.
@@rashakor Interesting points. The fact that saxophones are not that so good at being lyrically soft is indeed a handicap, although partly based on fashionable assumptions. See Debussy’s underestimated concerto. If performed well it can be very subtle.
@@marcbrasse747 Don’t get me wrong, Saxophone ensembles in chamber music yield wonderful interpretations and have no less lyrical depth than the other woodwinds. But the same way that I wouldn’t bring a sousaphone (or any other loud, brash bass brass, lol BBB) to play baroque chamber music, a saxophone (a loud brash bass brass clarinet) feels out of place in anything classical (heck even clarinets are mostly out of place and character in their upper registers in anything pre-Mozart). OTOH, the Contraforte does everything the Contrabassoon does better, up and down the scale and in the entirety of the lyrical range hence the rather swift displacement (not just adoption).
Incredible instrument and quite nice video! Thanks )
Thanks for the best profile of this instrument I’ve seen on UA-cam yet!
Wow! This thing sounds great!
As a composer I certainly prefer this sound in my orchestrations over the traditional contrabassoon. The dynamic range is especially an advantage. With a regular contrabassoon, you might opt to avoid the indelicate rattle of contabassoon in thinner/quieter textures. This opens up more applications on both ends of the dynamic range.
As an (amateur) composer, this thing sounds amazing. I'm going to have to write some stuff for it.
I'll be honest: I don't like the sound of the contrabassoon. But the contraforte has a very rich sound, and I like it. I am able to accept the contraforte as a substitute of the contrabassoon in the orchestra.
Damn. I wish I could try these, but money's an issue :(
50k is a lot
I love the timbre of the contra forte but i can see times where it can't fully replace a contrabassoon
Wow. What a sound! I already love the Tubax. Looking forward to the first commission to write for an orchestra with a contraforte. And by the way, enjoy your video's a lot!
I've always loved the contrabassoon but they are extremely expensive. Since I like to know the price of everything (though not the value of nothing), I did a quick search and found a contraforte for about 55,000 €. In contrast, I found an Amati contrabassoon for about 20,000 €. The latter price is about what a good grand piano or concert harp costs. I'm afraid I probably won't get to play a contraforte in this life, but a contrabassoon might still be in the cards.
I'm always open for experimentation in the field of instrument making, though ideally I prefer performances of older music on period instruments. However, that's not always practical. Judging by the video, this instrument sounds great.
Hmm. Is there a woodwind quintet that uses one? Better yet, a WWQ that uses various family members of each instrument so every one gets to explore the full range of their respective families.
I want to see (and hear) a quintet of contraforte, bassoon, cor anglais, oboe d'amore, and oboe.
There was a 'bassoforte' prototype made and going by the video posted on here (I can't find it), it had absolutely no tone.
Wolf unfortunately removed it from their website, probably for that exact reason. I remember seeing Bret Newton talk about it, and he said it almost sounded like a saxophone (most certainly nothing like a bassoon)
Does the increased high end of this instrument obviate (at least somewhat) a dedicated contra player's need to switch to regular bassoon to play higher parts with the other bassoons?
No, timbre is still as much of a consideration when it comes to instrument swaps like this.
I’d love to hear or collaborate with a contraforte player in a free improv ensemble.
Nice
I'm not a fan of the contraforte in the great orchestra. Though it is a kind of good contrabassoon, I don't think that it is destinct enough to have serious advantages. It is still not an evil bass beast but much more a subtle colour woodwind like the modern contrabassoon always truely has been. Instead of having the contraforte replacing the contrabassoon, I would find it much more interesting if one would build a second instrument wich exaggerates the features of the contraforte but sacrifices the high register completely and really goes for a brutally wide bore and a loud and cutting forte between C1 und C3. Kind of a reinvented great bass shawm.
The contraforte still can not rival the effect of trombone and tuba in the bass of a orchestral tutti- but if it can't it kind of does not deliver on it's promise and should be the most usefull for medium sized wind groups or excelling as an ensemble instrument because of it's wide range.
For orchestral purposes, I never could understand the focus Eppelsheim/Wolf were laying on surpassing the high register of older double bass woodwinds. Same for the Eb Tubax, why must it be so small just to have an excellent high register? The bassoon and the baritone Sax already have good high registers. What I would want from a modern orchestral double bass reed is only a low range that is as solid as possible so it can change the perception of the entire orchestral tutti bass towards more defined and bright.
It reminds me more of a Sarrusophone than anything. The contraforte seems like a well-made... let's call it "reed contrabass". The upper register has an intonation and clarity that the contrabassoon simply doesn't have. But outside of that, this is not a replacement for the contrabassoon. Contra is a very tough instrument to tame, and is indeed littered with design issues, but this just seems to have taken away so much of the soul and color of the instrument. The woman in the video says how "defined and centered" the sound is; those are a couple of the very last words I would use to describe what I just heard. Truly, I don't hate this sound, but it is very bright, somewhat hollow. I think large concert bands and contemporary music have found a wonderful new tool, but this cannot replace this... ua-cam.com/video/ErqOvGQokQI/v-deo.html
Historical instruments have been replaced by more modern ones all along music history - Baroque music only recently has been played on historicist instruments after its revival in the 19th century. The ophicleide, which was the original bass brass in early 29th century music, quickly was replaced by the tuba. And orchestras today rarely play the ventil-less French horn when it comes to Mozart.
The contrafortes I have previously heard recordings of sound more like a subcontrabass oboe than a contrabassoon, as if they were different instruments covering the same compass (actually more for the contraforte, but close enough). This one sounds in between, with contrabassoon sound in the very low register, and then becoming more like an oboe a short way up. I understand that normally it is played with its own reed, but that it is also possible to use a contrabassoon reed on it -- maybe that makes the difference?
Subcontraforte!
There seems to be some kind of high-end "slappiness" that presents itself in the extreme lower register of the instrument. I honestly find it very unpleasantly distracting.
I'm a compoſer. This is really neat, and I definitely would like to learn moꝛe about thoſe guys' other inſtruments thou didſt mention. I am very impꝛeſſed with the range and tone of the inſtrument as well as the dynamic range. I do not think I haue euer heard of this thing befoꝛe.
One queſtion I haue is, How are the chꝛomatic notes, and the holes foꝛ them, tuned? Actually foꝛ the whole inſtrument, are they drilled foꝛ 12 tone equal temperament? She mentioneth it hath better intonation, but which intonation is ſhe referring to? Pythagoꝛean? 12 tet? And if it is Pythagoꝛean, are the chꝛomatic notes tuned as ſharps oꝛ flats, oꝛ ſome mean between them?
I only compoſe in and foꝛ Pythagoꝛean Iuſt Intonation, oꝛ what I ſimply call True Intonation, ſo it is impoꝛtant to know if theſe inſtruments are ſet vp to be able to play in tune naturally, oꝛ if there is ſome degree of bending in one direction oꝛ the other that the player muſt do to reach the iuſt notes, foꝛ eample to differenetiate between C# and Db.
It only makes sense if it’s half the price of a contrabassoon.
many professional contrabassoonists would beg to differ, it is rapidly gaining traction in the US and has been on stage with the Chicago Symphony many times already this year....