Kyra the Kitty everyone was a terrible person back then, save for the kittypets, Birchface, and Flowerpaw. On a side note, if Birchface had lived, what would’ve happened? From what we were told, he sounded like a really cool dude. What if he had pulled a Thrushpelt and said he was Mapleshade’s kit’s father, then when Ravenwing revealed the omen, he’d challenge the medicine cat, who was a novice mind you, and Oakstar would side with his son
Appledusk: (goes to Dark Forest) Appledusk: (sees Mapleshade) HISSSS Mapleshade: REEEEE Both of them: (start trying to kick each other's butts) Dark Forest Trainees: (surprised Pikachu face)
Sorry I meant to say Maple Shade Mapleshade: if I don't have to tell Apple dust do I have to kill somebody else me: well I'll just pick him up and you can kill him Maple Shade: seems too easy me: what if I throw him to the tree and when he wakes up you can kill hem Mapleshade: all too easy me: you can make him feel pain in it like do it very slowly so you can feel the pain Mapleshade: ok >:3
I like to think Appledusk was sent to the Darkforest and his eternal punishment for disloyalty was immortality but he had to always be killed by mapleshade when he revives and is destined to run from from her forever
@@noytc he could have EASILY stopped maple from being so angry, maybe just said he moved on, or been softer to her, and GOD could they not have let her stay until morning? Appledusk was a BAD person, wether or not he saved his new mate, he CHOSE to LIE rather than be honest and give mapleshade some slack, he lied and ulimately RUINED her life.
i think a factor of hawkfrost going to the dark forest was his abuse of mothwing. if he had never faked the moth wing sign, mothwing’s faith would never have been shattered. and, hawkfrost tried to manipulate mothwing into faking a sign that he should be deputy. there are reasons for him to go to the dark forest. also, this video is amazing! i love your opinions and headcannons.
I agree Hawkfrost should have gone to the dark forest, but I think Nate's point was more that if Hawkfrost went to the dark forest for that, Ashfur should've too. Because like Nate pointed out, they took the same life (which is arguable worse for Ashfur to have done, since taking the life of an enemy leader could be justified, taking the life of your own leader really can't be) and then Ashfur tried to murder 3 children (of his own clan, again!) and only stopped when he realized he had another way of hurting a girl for not dating him. So like, Hawkfrost probably deserves to be in the dark forest, but Ashfur does too.
OML FINALLY SOMEONE WHO ACKNOWLEDGES OAKSTARS ACTIONS. If the Erin’s ever announced Oakstar went to the dark forest I’d honestly celebrate. And when he banished Mapleshades kits didn’t he pretty much break a rule in the warrior code? I thought there was a rule “No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan.” But I comply agree with every cat you put on this list haha!
We do not shit talk the cats in MapleShades Vengeance enough! OakStar Sucks! He should burn, he was like the worst ThunderClan Leader ever!DarkStar Too! And AppleDusk is just as evil! He cheated on MapleShade (MapleShade did to a bad thing dating him,But you don’t straight up abandon the relationship) He killed BirchFace and FlowerPaw and basicly dances on there grave.Then he Doesn’t even give his kits Corpses a second glance.Wonder how that went for him in StarClan, I wanna see the Erin’s make a little comic of AppleDusk and MapleShades Kits confronting AppleDusk about not giving a shit about them and being disgusted by them.
Also I know I'ma git wooshed but but togerkit was spoiled heavily because he was the only kit in the nursery and there was 3 queens, all expecting exept for Leopard foot, his mother (also pinestar was bad for dating a cat 5 years younger than him and then not caring when 2 of the kits died, then just left)
Oakstar in captions is oak Starr,Reedshine is Reach shine,Flowerpaw is flower pod/flower pots, Thunderclan is thunder client,Graystipe is Gracie,Appledusk is Appleis/Apple desk Riverclan is River Klan/River clam and Kittypets are kitty bats.
“An evil medicine cat?! That’s be so cool!” Me: I have one of those. Why don’t the books? They have a pedophile, an abusive mom, a nice guy, a revenge seeking stereotypical villain, a justified mother, why don’t we have an evil doctor in cannon.
I want a poster of so many cats saying “--- deserved it~” Like, just a collage of them. HollyLeaf saying “AshFur deserved it” MapleShade saying “AppleDusk deserved it” Hell, maybe even Scourge saying “TigerStar deserved it!” I need like a whole poster of those 😂
I actually have a medicine cat oc thats evil and its so fun to imagine what an evil medicine cat can do, from drugging cats with like poppy seeds or mildly poisonous plants that if given yarrow quickly wont kill them and forcing them to give up information to luring a leader to the moonpool into a trap, its so much fun
Could probably get more morally dubious cats to do things that seem not too bad for catnip, or if another clan desperately need it hold it over there head for information or supplies, it isnt addictive unfortunately so theres no getting cats hooked on it, but its still a very good experience for cats so there'd be cats willing to maybe pick a specific plant, or give you an alibi, or whatever if you give them some
I always get angry when the ONE cat in Mapleshades vengeance that the only semi-decent cat that I wanted to see more character development on was the ONLY one they sent to the dark forest!
Lmao yeah. Yeah she was like. In a pretty vulnerable state at the time and all she did was not jump into a raging river and drown when there was already a lifeguard there. But what do I know lol
I refuse to believe Frecklewish ended up in the DF. She was not aware the kits were in danger, and even if she was, she could not swim. Not to mention, she was in a deep depressive state
Uh no Ashfur killed/help killed one cat and tried to kill three kits, Mapleshade killed Ravenwing, Frecklewish, AppleDusk, I think that's all when she was alive not sure..But anyways She killed a medicine cat that's a big no no in warriors so yes she deserves to go to the dank faucet.
I am sorry but you forgot this part here about Darkstar (mapleshade 's Vengeance) Appledusk: "I will never forget your mercy Darkstar. Thank you. I promise my loyalty lies only with RiverClan, and my Clanmates. "Darkstar: "Rainfall, help Splashfoot and Eeltail to bury these kits. The accident of their birth is not their fault. They may lie in peace in our territory now." Chapter 4
But he does also just let AppleDusk off for free- and denied MapleShade shelter, but he is still a bad cat. He didn’t help the she-cat who was just kicked away from her friends and family because she had kittens with one of your warriors who DIeD and she is now wet, cold, and hungry in the middle of the night. You then bury them away from your warriors, and let the father off with bassicly no punishment, leading said she-cat too revenge because everyone abandoned her in her time of need.
oakstar was heartbroken over the fact that mapleshade lied about who the father was. he was manipulated to believe that his son was the father of her kits, when it was actually the killer of his son. now, should he have kicked them out, with the kits being young? no. but he is not the cause, he had no control over the actions that unfolded. mapleshade's impatience is what caused the kits to die.
One Eye(Dawn Of the Clans) didnt believe in Star Clan but was still send to the Dark Forest,he was known as the first one in the Dark Forest and some say he was the first one to greet Mapleshade there. With this as a fact,Darktail and Scourage should be in the Dark Forest If the Erins disprove them then Cloudtail and Mothwing cant be Star Clan cats when they die The death thing in Warriors is vague and needs some rules too
Oh god that first scene where Rainflower was arguing with shellheart about renaming stormkit and then later on when brambleberry was comforting him, they were just so sad ahhhH that book made me cry
Starclan: Sees Hawkfrost killing Firestar* Starclan: GASP* “Don’t u hurt our bby!!! >:(“ Sends Hawkfrost to the Dark Forest Hawkfrost: ... Wot. Oh well, atleast I can see my dad.
Okay so the whole Hawkfrost going to the DF thing,,, He was training in the DF before he died, and was following Tigerstar's wishes the entire time. Thistleclaw was the same. They didn't really KILL anyone that we saw. Thistleclaw killed in the DF, so who is to say that Hawkfrost didn't? I believe that they both CHOSE the Dark Forest. This is open for discussion also.
So, apparently in Spottedleaf's Heart Thistleclaw had murdered someone in the Dark Forest. I mean, plus the whole Spottedleaf scenario (which I wish didn't happen, tbh I liked Thistleclaw before the Spottedleaf thing?)
Sky star kinda redeemed himself in the end Ashfur; yes Ashfur to cat hell, he broke the code multiple times. Yeah getting his heart broken is sad but he let his hatred Get the better of him and made him go insane. Hawkheart; i don’t remember him Raggedstar; he should’ve gone to the dark forrest but so many former shadowclan cats are in the dark forrest. Rainflower; abusive mom should go to hell Duskstar; i don’t know him. Appledusk; he basically made Mapleshade evil. He is kinda of a cat sosiopath. Darkstar; I don’t know her (haven’t read mapleshade’s vengance) Onestar; I disagree, yes he made mistakes however when shit got real he stood up for the clans. Darktail; one of the best villians, I think he is in there though. Oakstar; i don’t remember him.
I think RainFlower deserves it the least of these cats, she did redeem herself in the end, and even though it doesn’t mean much, but it’s still something. She also only affected one cat, and dint directly or indirectly kill anyone.
Clear Sky should have been punished while he was alive, and in a very simple way: remove him from his leadership position and prevent him from ever having one again. This dude is objectively not a good leader, so just don't let him have power again. When he's not in control, he can be a decent guy(the journey from the mountains, risking his life to be a trap for One Eye).
Raggedstar also murdered (more of killed) Hal without any *specific* justified reason, so doesn't that kind of count? Or does only killing clan cats count?
@@boyloverhiiro8937 Yellow fang is not insane, she felt ready to die by broken star when thunder clan attacked shadow clan's camp, and that 1 time shadow clan are snitches- Shadow Clan tell all the clan's about the 'murderous' she rogue.
100% agree with all of this but wanna mention another reason why Onestar should burn. When shadowclan was sick windclan had the herb they needed but Onestar was a prick so he always said no and was basically responsible for the death of Crowfrost, and I'm pretty sure Rowanstar lost a life too, or more lives. And I'm sure some other cats died too. So,,,yeah burn onestar
Onestar really IS a prick. I swear. I remember before reading to the point where he became leader (this was a while ago) and my friend basically spoiled me on random things and said he became leader. She said he was a douchebag and I was like "really he's not that bad" but then leadership happened
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS By the way, with Oakstar, he actually BROKE THE WARRIOR CODE by banishing Mapleshade's kits. The warrior code may state that "You may not be mates with a cat from another Clan," which Mapleshade broke, but the warrior code ALSO states that "No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, regardless of heritage!" TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, GENIUS!
Yeah! An evil medicine cat would be awesome! I do have an evil medicine cat OC named Bearglow. His main reason on why he's evil is to have as many kits as possible to spread his gene pool throughout all the clans with as many she-cats as possible while at the same time, manipulating his "mates" and his kits. And other stuff too like, handing out "prophecies" to get things he wanted but he does receive prophecies from StarClan so you never know if it's real or not. All you have to do is trust him. Yeah, yeah, it might sound stupid but hey! I think it's quite fun! And it makes great fanart!
I have an au I call evil Patchkit where Starclan just exiled him for no reason and his siblings stay because Appledusk doesn't want to make himself "look bad".and apparently exiling all his kits? No no no. Exiling one kit and keeping the others? Fine. And of course,he chose Patchkit because he looked most like Mapleshade. After a long time he wants revenge. Mostly because he changed over time. I'm not telling you the rest because I plan on doing something in the future with it.
Hold on, I have an idea for an AU about if Mapleshade did go to twoleg place and be sort of a feral cat. She meets a nice kittypet who fights back when thunderclan attacks her nest. Soon, a raid against the kittypets happens and other cat joins in to fight back. A tom enters and kills one of her kits, calling them halfclan mistakes. She attacks and fends him off before he can kill the rest of them. Thunderclan goes back to camp after they have nearly kilked a few kittypets and Mapleshade and the she cat she meet earlyer bury her kit deeply in a flowerbed. The she cat offers her help from her twolegs and she accepts to get treatment for her wounds. She trains her two remaining kits and more kittypets battle moves to begin a war against Thunderclan. Soon she has a clans worth of kittypets and rouges to go to war with Thunderclan. Mapleshade, now Maple orders her full grown sons, Larch (Larchkit) and Patch (Patchkit) to hunt down Appledusk while Maple leads the kittypets and rouges to Thunderclan camp. They soon find Appledusk on a patrol with Reedshine. Larch lures Reedshine away and pins her down in a bush. Patch lunges towards Appledusk. Appledusk asks who this strange rouge is. Patch says he was his kit, before he betrayed him and his family. They battle for a bit when Reedshine escapes Larch's clutches only to see Appledusk get murdered by Patch.
I agree with Lizardstripe but not Mudclaw. He led the rebellion because he believed that the Thunderclan cats were lying about Tallstar making Onestar deputy.
Deerwind Mudclaw had *every reason* to think that though!! Tallstar was close friends with Firestar, as was Onewhisker/Onestar, and Brambleclaw was the only other cat there and he was a candidate for Thunderclan deputy. If we hadn’t read it from Brambleclaw’s perspective how do you think it would’ve looked from the outside? Suspicious? Yes. Mudclaw was chosen to be deputy after the battle with Bloodclan, when Tallstar was still in his right mind. Onewhisker was chosen at the last minute on Tallstar’s deathbed because he didn’t think Mudclaw would keep the friendship between their clans intact. In the end though ONESTAR DIDN’T EITHER!! So it’s easy to make a case that Mudclaw could’ve been a good leader and that Tallstar wasn’t in his right mind when he made Onewhisker the new Leader Of Windclan and the fact that Tallstar’s Thunderclan allies were there only seemed to solidify that theory.
I heard the words "The other day I was cha-" and I fully expected you to finish that sentence with "chased down a hallway by a giant cube with the word AVOID on it." I've been playing VVVVVV way too much. I agree with everything you said here, though! Especially with Darkstar, Oakstar, and Appledusk. They're all terrible people.
Honestly, I really want Redtail to have killed Thistleclaw and blamed it on a RiverClan patrol and then go to the Dark Forest. Maybe not the last part, idek XD I love the ‘Appledusk deserved it’ drawing so much that I went on Amino and saved it As for the LGBT+ headcannons, Night x Feather all the way. 100%. That ship is my life.
That rant about Onestar filled me with satisfaction, but besides all the terrible things he did, I'd argue that killing Darktail isn't just not enought, it's no step towards redemption at all. Darktail and his buddies had already lost, thanks to the courage and determination of dozens of cats(of which Onestar was not a part of). Killing his own son was pointless and frankly insulting to all those that had lost so much more because of Darktail than he ever did. It's a convenient way for him to escape the consequences of his actions and to ease his conscience. If that's not evil, then I don't know what is.
7:50 i feel like darkstar knew reedshine and appledusk where mates and that mapleshade still loved appledusk so she didnt want any kind of trouble within riverclan but i do feel it was wrong of her to excile a nearly drowed greiving she cat with no where to go and do to nothing about appledusk
Moonfeather :3 I mean, Mapleshade was a liability to the clan. Not only could she not swim and would not be accepted by the other warriors, it could’ve also drawn the ire of Thunderclan
Dragon’s Touch True, but even though it was probably best that Mapleshade shouldn’t have been accepted into RiverClan, it doesn’t excuse the fact that Darkstar basically let Appledusk off the hook. If you’re gonna punish one cat part of the forbidden relationship, you need to punish both of them. Yeah, there was the whole “this isn’t the season for losing warriors” thing, but I’m sure there are punishments other than exile
@@lpsgirlanimations3974 Darkstar never only punished one of them though, she wasn't the one who punished Mapleshade, she simply didn't allow her to join Riverclan which makes sense as in every angle, she'd be a liability. Plus Appledusk lost his children which is a punishment in a way. If it seems Mapleshade was unfairly punished compared to Appledusk, that's more on Oakstar than Darkstar. Darkstar wasn't obligated to be cruel just since Oakstar had been.
They shouldve shown how truly evil, selfish, and narcissistic Mapleshade was by making Oakstar keep the kits in ThunderClan. Mapleshade then sneaks back in to camp to kidnap her kits, showing off the "if i cant have them, no one can" mindset she had with Appledusk. She takes them to Riverclan thinking her kits will be leverage for her to get accepted (which she does outright think in the book). The kits die the same way, with Mapleshades impatience and insistence on swimming in the river. This time though, Frecklewish, who went out to frantically look for the kits, comes out to testify against Mapleshade to the RiverClan patrol and reveal the full story. Darkstar rejects her on the basis of being a kidnapper who killed her kits. Everything else works out the same (Appledusk fucked up but didnt deserve the DF for what was effectively cheating). The rest of the story stays the same, as it already pretty well demonstrates that Mapleshade is an awful cat. She refuses any help, can't move on, cant acknowledge her mistakes, murders 3 cats in cold blood, is possessive of an ex (If this story was from a male perspective I dont think anyone would deny her actions to Appledusk were psychotic. Shes a female Ashfur.), is willing to kill an apprentice/pregnant cat, and rejects any discussion.
OP you're SO right like the narrative really wanted to convince me mapleshade was selfish and could never accept blame and I feel like ultimately failed to do so in the first half but that absolutely would have pulled it all together
Draikinator: Everyone says it's Mapleshade's fault that her kits died! Me: IT IS! She could've went to Wind clan, or started her life as a rogue! Maybe even became a kittypet. SHE DIDNT HAVE TO CROSS THE RIVER. She thinks Appledusk belongs to her and thinks she can get away with anything! The only real punishment she ever had was being exiled and her kits dieing. Other than that, she is ENTITLED. IT IS HER FAULT.
The ONLY problem I have with onestar is he COMPLETLY changed the MOMENT he became leader, his opinions with thunderclan changed, his friendships changed, his personality changed, EVERYTHING. I heavily doubt he would have even had kits had he not been suddenly changed so much when he became leader.
Dark tail does know about Starclan Cause He said something like “Will a cat that kills his own son go to starclan? Think about that when you’re on your last life.”
I think it wouldve been good to also include the fact that Appledusk blamed Mapleshade for their kits deaths. Imagine blaming the terrified, exiled mother that YOU LED ON AND DECIDED TO TURN YOUR BACK TO FOR ANOTHER CAT BEHIND HER BACK, FOR THE DEATH OF HER CHILDREN Like he's 50% at fault for her position to begin with- HE impregnated her (of course Mapleshade shouldve known better too)! But then he has the nerve to not suck up to it and 100% blame her for everything like he wasnt an idiot too!
I think it's really important to remember that mapleshade always intended to tell the truth! She says it over and over again. She is waiting until her children are old enough they will not be blamed for her crimes. She wants to wait until they are adults. And she was RIGHT- they WERE banished for HER crimes she says point blank again and again that she has every intention of taking responsibility for her actions, telling the truth, and accepting her punishment.
@@Draikinator I don't think the exile was solely because it was a Riverclan cat, but because it was Birchface's name she used. That's obviously going to be a sore spot for Frecklewish and Oakstar. She could have declined Frecklewish's assumption and refused to name the father, as is in the queen's rights. Lying by omission is still lying, and Mapleshade essentially took advantage of a grieving sister, and clan.
There were other places for Mapleshade to go with the kits, such as twoleg-place (and no, there weren't raids on it yet, that was only mentioned in Pinestar's Choice) and if you look at the old territory maps you technically you can make it to Riverclan from Thunderclan in other ways, even without crossing the river. Even if they did have to cross the river, this was one of the widest parts as well. Appledusk, the Riverclan patrol, even her own kits, warned her the river was too dangerous, and she still went. Also Appledusk had warned her against bringing the kits to meet him so often but she did it anyway, and lo and behold, that's when Ravenwing saw and made the connection. Appledusk isn't blaming her for the kits existing, he was happy about that, so the 50% argument doesn't make sense. He blames her for their deaths and honestly, yes it could have been prevented if she went another way. If she had moved on, this fault could have been forgiven as it was an accident, but since Mapleshade is so insistent on blaming everyone but herself for the kits' deaths, I can't help but notice the irony and the total lack of self awareness.
@@brishtisengupta7180 I think you interpreted parts of the narrative differently than I did. Yes, it wasnt mentioned in MV, but was in PC, but I felt that it was strongly implied that these raids were not new, and had been ongoing, perhaps even traditional. You are completely welcome to feel differently. You can interpret it as being the first time. But it doesn't actually definitively say either way, so neither of us are correct, we simply have different interpretations of the text. Or, well, I an moonkitti have different interpretations of the text. I know her talking points. She's got a fair interpretation, i simply disagree. It was preventable. Mapleshade made the incorrect decision. The point I was trying to make, the point I was always trying to make in regards to MV, was that the options presented to her at the time were almost all bad. It was not that everything was worse than the river, that she made the right call. She didn't. I think she should have gone around. But if she had, she ran the risk of being caught by a patrol, and she'd just been told they would kill her if they caught her. Would they really? maybe she doesnt know. Other places weren't safe either. Every direction she could have gone held some kind of risk, but riverclan offerred the highest chance of safety, so that's the decision she made. And when she rolled the dice, she lost. But she also could have lost if she chose to go to twolegplace and a human found her and took her kittens, or a dog attacked, or if she had passed through another clan and been attack by a patrol, or if shed gone off territory and been attacked by a fox or badger or hawk. All of the options before her held a risk of death, and the river was more risky, but more reward, and Mapleshade.... was very naive. She genuinely was shocked that her clan was so upset at her about what she'd done. she even told appledusk at one point her half clan kits may be the key to ending the war between her clans. She was concerningly optimistic and naive. And before the accident she said clearly, in the text, she had always intended to take responsibility for what she had done, WHEN her kits were old enough they wouldnt be blamed for her crimes- and in the end, was she not right? they WERE blamed for her crimes. and then AFTER the accident suddenly its everyone else's fault. She has a major shift in the way she thinks and speaks that I think makes it clear she's suffering from serious delusions and an emotional breakdown. After the accident she DOES have a total lack of self awareness, she blames everyone else for her problems, she's erratic and cruel. But I think that behaviour was a direct result of what happened. That's it. it's not that mapleshade did nothing wrong, its that i personally feel it is cruel and unusual to villify a mother for her children dying in a tragic accident when, even if the call wasn't the best one, it was the decision she genuinely believed was the right one at the time. villify her for, you know, the murders. the murders are villain behaviour.
Honestly I never understood the huuuuge amount of hatred towards Rainflower. I'm not saying that her actions were justifiable (she's an absolute moron) but after reading Crookedstar's Promise, I never found Rainflower to be that abusive. Sure, Crookedstar felt abandoned, but at least he had Brambleberry. Why does nobody talk about Brambleberry's relationship with Crookedkit anyways, she makes a good mother to him in my opinion. Sandgorse was more abusive. There, I said it.
Neglect is still abuse. Crooked made it a main point in most of his life to make her proud. 'He had Brambleberry' I mean that's still not helpful when your birth mother is still in the picture and wants nothing to do with you. Rainflower blames him for his own disfigurement (Which was Goosefeather's Fault), she has Hailstar change his name to scar him forever, and then forced him, a kit, to sleep by himself. She called him ugly and constantly belittled him, saying that Oak would always be better than him. That's not abusive? If she was person, she'd be in jail with people coming after her. What if Crooked had still been nursing? She probably would have asked another clanmate to feed him. So she was so vain, she broke up her own family and didn't even care. And even then, Crooked felt grief over 'letting' her die. He didn't curse her dead body or even curse her name. He, until Mapleshade, had been trying to help, when technically he could have originally just let her die. The fact that Crooked still had love for her, just made the whole situation sad.
Sandgorse? More abusive? Rainflower literally ditched fucking crookedkit for his looks, not even for who he was! And even if it were the case that she ditched him for who he was personality wise, that's still messed up! And Sandgorse LOVED tallpaw.
Relooking on this, I kinda wanna give my opinions on these entries. *10.* Ashfur… Yeah get him there already. He technically completed one murder (one of Firestar’s lives in the fox trap) and as far as I know so far attempted three (Lionpaw whilst training and, of course, the fire scene). So, why isn’t he in the Dark Forest, despite literally trying to kill three cats over selfish love? *9.* Hawkheart. I listened to your reasons here, as I haven’t read Mapleshade’s Vengeance and all I know about it is from Bright Guardian Akira. I see no reason to put him there until it’s shown what he did to go there. Would agree if he had killed off Chiveclaw, and we do need an evil med cat. *8.* Raggedstar. Actually, as he only inspired Brokenstar’s violence, I see no reason for that particular reason. It also depends on exactly what he did to Yellowfang while he was alive. *7.* Moonflower, I agree. The Warrior Code says all kit lives are precious. For the love of StarClan, Tigerstar as a kit was saved from a fox by ShadowClan warriors and promised to repay them (which he does)! So why the heck should you abuse your son for an injury? *6.* SkyClan Darkstar. Actually, he didn’t do anything to deserve Dark Forest status. If he made that part of the Code, it’s legal, exploitable as it may be. If he abused his Clanmates into following it before it became a Code I totally see that. *5.* Appledusk. He was well within his reasons to be hostile: he could have been nicer, but he WAS following the Code about defending territory and staying loyal to his Clan. I’m mainly basing these on following the Code, so unless there was a buttload of codebreaking and bad actions behind the scenes that weren’t to benefit more than a leader’s action, I don’t see him in the Dark Forest. Guiltless doesn’t always mean evil in a world with a lot of war. *4.* Second RiverClan Darkstar. I can’t decide. I think she shouldn’t go for driving out Mapleshade (see Appledusk), but should go for disrespecting the dead kits. *3.* Onestar. Well, yes. Attacking kits and elders was extremely bad. *2.* Darktail, yes. All the reason you listed. *1.* Oakstar. GO. THE FUCK. TO THE DARK FOREST RIGHT NOW. He put kits in danger, which is against the Code. Both Codes protecting kits are at play here: first, the kits were way too young to defend themselves and couldn’t live without Mapleshade. My idea is keep them until six moons, and give them the choice to be an apprentice in ThunderClan but never see their mother as an ally again or go with their mom and be exiled. At that point, there was nothing too wrong. There’s nothing about the Twolegplace raids unless he killed at least two defenseless kittypets in my opinion. If the kittypets attacks first, it doesn’t count as you are allowed to kill if attacked.
Can help you out with Darkstar, she never disrespected the dead kits, don't know where this vid got that from. She said to bury them alongside Riverclan dead.
No, the OakStar did not break the law - he did not force the children to swim across the river, he simply drove them out along with the mapleshade, and then she chose to drown the kittens. Although she could go to the barn, cross the river on the bridge and many other things, so... No
Number 7: Tigerstar mother is Leapaodfoot, his mother don't bully him Moonflower is Bluestar mother. Is Crookedstar was bully by his mother Rainflower Darkstar don't do this, she just exile Mapleshade.
Moonflower is Bluestar’s mom, pretty sure you’re talking about Rainflower and Crookedstar. Rainflower was the one who treated Crookedstar badly just because of an injury.
Oak star: I banish u! Maple shade: D: Oak star: I banish your kits too Maple shade: D: D: Maple shade: meh kit dead Oak star: it’s your fault your kits died. I did not banish you at night with your kits in the middle of flood season where the only place you could go was river clan.. I would never! Maple shade: I kill u all now •3• Idk...
*EDIT: Ignore every single comment I made on any of Dr*kinator's videos. A lot of my opinions are outdated and I regret commenting on their videos.* Moonflower was just following her leader’s orders. Remember that one of the rules of the Warrior Code is to always listen to your leader, since their word is the law. Also, I think that Lizardstripe should’ve been on the list as well. And Frecklewish from Mapleshade’s Vengeance broke the Warrior Code by leaving three innocent kits to drown.
I don't know how I didn't find you sooner. I ADORE all of your head cannons, and would honestly love to see a rewrite of the story with purely your head cannons. You've definitely earned yourself a new follower!
Yeah...Ashfur obviously deserves to go to the Darkforest, but I really wish he was written better. When I was a young kid reading the books, Ashfur was one of my favorites, and I thought for sure that he'd get with Squirrelflight, because they always got along so well, and Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw always bickered! For me, their relationship seemed to come out of nowhere. Also.... I really wish he didn't have to bury his own goddamn mother. That would traumatize anyone
wizzaroot. The CRINGE Channel I feel like Squirrelflight is a part of Ashfur’s rage. Considering she let him along for how long ? She played with his feelings because she just got into an arguement with Brambleclaw, and eventually started getting cozy with Ashfur. That let him to think that she was interested in him, she was using him because she was an upset brat. I don’t know honestly, Ashfur would have been fine if it wasn’t for Squirrelflight
@@herbleave8023 LMFAO yeah, this was 15 year old me speaking. I do not agree with my comment from 3 years ago nor did I remember me making this comment lolol
So I have a au idea on rouges that are in the dark forest and a couple other things So the basic things -the dark forest can watch over the clans and if they can or can’t in the books it’s in here anyways -hawkheart,Darktail,ashfur, and scourge are in the dark forest maybe rain flower but she gets allowed into starclan being led into it by crooked star - the dark forest gets a bit more power enough to give cats they think are worthy a power every 6 moons -one of breezepelts siblings survive with him (swiftkit/swiftflower) - swiftflower gets a power first I’m not sure yet but one related to sneaking or speed - breezepelt gets a power related to dodging strength or sneaking - the dark forest is much more powerful than in the books - the dark forest can see visions like seeing if a cat can become a powerful dark forest warrior in the future - a little from the the spirit suffix video it like breezespirit but with two cats that share the hate the have for their father and clan mates - when breezepelt attacks jay Feather i think swiftflower watching carefully in some bushes nearby to see if breezepelt succeeds and she jumps in to save him and get him out of there like to show they feel like they only have each other in their world I would love to see someone expand on this
I have a feeling some riverclan cats were so disgusted by both appledusk having a thunderclan mate but then telling his dead children were mistakes and they plotted against him but mapleshade got to him first Also onestar be lookin at oakstar like "tf dude"
Evil medicine cat? *looks at the story I'm currently creating then thinks* if i could fit that in... but no... it would be two male villianous characters... ehhh.... um... OH, I KNOW! I make a second story with mind control! Yes!
Awhile back I was watching a video on why Ashfur didn't go to the darkforest and i've held the reasoning close to my heart since. I judge if a cat should go to the darkforest whether or not they have redeemed themselves or if they have unfinished buisness. Ashfur did what he 'needed' to do and didn't have enough resentment left in his heart to go to the darkforest. Spoilers: The darkforest literally wages war on the living and Starclan, I don't see Ashfur being apart of this.
I want Darktail to have trained in the dark forest. How else did he get so good at fighting? Smoke was a kittypet, not a Clan cat and she couldn't hunt, let alone fight. The only remarkable fighting skills we see are those of dark forest warriors and Lionblaze (he has superpowers, he doesn't count). *Darktail trained in hell confirmed.*
2:25 as soon as you said the name "Hawkheart" my brain immediately went "YES FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME AND EVEN TALKS ABOUT THE HAWKHEART THING"
Ashfur - I agree! He has done more than Hawkfrost has. He tried to murder four cats, successfully killed one of them, and all for a stupid reason; his girlfriend broke up with him. Hawkheart - Oh my gosh, I need that to happen. I would so read. Raggedstar - Totally. He’s a horrible cat, and doesn’t deserve StarClan. He was honestly a pretty abusive cat. Rainflower - Yeah... she’s kinda the reason that he started training in the Dark Forest anyway. Dusk/Darkstar - Yeah... he was an idiot. And a horrible leader. And it made no sense that his code was even added. Appledusk - Honestly, Mapleshade should’ve gone to StarClan and he should’ve gone to the Dark Forest. Mapleshade rid us of such an evil cat, who WRONGED her. Badly. Darkstar - She... she was horrible. And her name kinda suggests that. AND LIKE WHAT? WHAT???? And I agree; why did everyone except for Mapleshade and her poor babies suck in that novella? Onestar - EXACTLY! And *spoilers for Crowfeather’s Trial* he was talking about all of his clanmates being disloyal, when he mates with another cat. And then abandons her and their babies. Darktail - He’s so evil. I hate him for it, but you gotta love how good at being bad he is. Oakstar - Every single time he was in the books, he did something wrong.
"Mapleshade should have gone to starclan" No. She's a murdurer. She deserves the dark forest. All Appledusk did is cheat on Maple. He also redeemed himself by sacrificing himself for a *PREGNANT* Reedshine and refusing to fight Mapleshade.
@@iexistd1661 FINALLY, SOMEONE SAYS IT! And not only that, but comparing her situation to Bluestar's and Leafpool's, the latter two ACKNOWLEDGED their situation and TRIED to make up for it. Meanwhile, Mapleshade thought she would get away with her actions, scott-free even.
MineSpawn I never knew there had actually been an leader named Oakstar and I have an oc that’s name is Oakstar that’s the leader of Thunderclan, his mate Coldfeather (both male cats), and he is honestly a good leader
Darkstar was actually not that bad. She was not aggressive to Mapleshade past regularly expected interclan hostility. This vid was not true as Darkstar allowed the kits to be buried with the Riverclan dead, they were not buried unfairly. And letting Mapleshade join Riverclan was not her obligation, and would've been a bad choice since it would have stirred up trouble in multiple ways (tension within the clan, Thunderclan would be angry, they'd have to spend time training her etc). What Darkstar did seems perfectly reasonable to me. Also, someone who cheated but then sacrificed himself to save his pregnant mate doesn't deserve Starclan, but someone who murdered three cats and blames everyone around her but herself does? I don't see it lol
I don’t agree with you about Appledusk going to the dark forest because the reasoning behind it doesn’t make any actual sense. *Appledusk leaving her is completely valid.* Quote to show it's the kits that were the reason for Appledusk leaving Mapleshade and something like that isn't as selfish as people make it out to be. Also why it's reasonable to blame Mapleshade for the kits' deaths: But night is falling!” Mapleshade protested. “Where will I go? Appledusk, help me!” The pale brown warrior shook his head. “Why should I? It’s your fault that these kits are dead. I never want to see you again.” - Chapter 4, When Mapleshade is sent away from Riverclan camp. Appledusk is disowning her because in his eyes, she caused their deaths, showing he genuinely cared about the kits. Not only did the Kits die, but Mapleshade almost got herself killed and risked the lives of a Riverclan patrol to save them, including Appledusk himself. I wouldn't blame anyone for doing that honestly. If the kits' deaths can justify Mapleshade's murders for some fans, but can't it for Appledusk's much less extreme act of rejecting his forbidden mate? Then that logic in itself is stupid. He's also not completely wrong for blaming the mate who gets all their kits killed through their recklessness. Yes, Mapleshade was in exile, however, she was still the one who made her kits swim in a clearly dangerous flood. The kits were already tired and hungry. And earlier that day, when Mapleshade allowed them to swim in the river during calm conditions, Patchkit still struggled and needed Appledusk to help him. If her kits struggled to swim in calm water, this should be a clear indicator they can’t swim in a flood and storm. Petalkit even shouts, “There’s too much water!” during the Flood scene in Chapter 4. If a kit can see the danger, Mapleshade has no excuse. She'd JUST left camp and weren't being actively chased, they weren't in such a rush they needed to cross a flood. This is the same reason why I blame Bluesfur for Mosskit’s death. Like Mapleshade, she unnecessarily dragged her kits through a clear danger when she had other obvious options to her, like simply warning Sunstar. *Appledusk choosing his clan over Mapleshade is justified* He was doing the technical right thing by choosing loyalty to his Clan instead of one forbidden mate, like it says in the Code. Choosing the one reckless mate who just got his kits killed, over his entire Clan, is a lot more selfish as he'd be abandoning a lot more: All his clanmates, vulnerable members who need protection, any kin he has, his apprentice, new mate and unborn kits. Appledusk was being asked to choose between one cat and an entire Clan, including his other kin. The choice is obvious if you ask me. And what Appledusk does is a lot better than what other forbidden mates do like Greystripe, who abandoned both his kin and Clans. First, abandoned Thunderclan to raise his kits in Riverclan. However, didn't dedicate himself to the Clan that showed him unneeded hospitality by leaking information on the Sunningrocks attack and refusing to fight on their side. Knowingly getting himself exiled while his kits were still in the Nursery, the whole reason he left in the first place. In the end, he just ended up betraying two separate Clans and abandoned his kits. Fans also have double standards when it comes to a similar situation: Pinestar gets criticized for abandoning his whole Clan, including his young mate and kits. However, when Appledusk chooses to stay loyal to his Clan with his new mate and unborn kits, fans scrutinise him for not staying with and going into exile with a single forbidden mate over his entire Clan. Despite after everything Mapleshade had just done, that would of been a seriously unhealthy relationship for the both of them - forced into exile with either the cat they blamed for their kits' deaths or stay with a mate who’s willing to forgive you after what you’ve done. *Appledusk blaming her is valid* Appledusk's accusation is built on valid reasoning but Mapleshade's is complete nonsense and ignores key facts, so she doesn't have to take any responsibility for her actions, just blaming it all on others. Many quotes from Appledusk prove how much he cared about his kits. If he never wanted kits and wanted to hide his crimes, he wouldn't of saved Mapleshade as she could of exposed all his crimes as well. But he didn't and he willingly confessed all his crimes himself. Mapleshade also completely ignores the fact, that she was the one who put the kits in danger in the first place. The kits were in the flood for a good amount of time before the patrol even had the chance to arrive. Mapleshade also wasted Appledusk's short time to save their kits, by forcing him to save her first. And by the time he set off to find their kits, it was already too late, as the kits' bodies had washed up on shore. And for Mapleshade to have the expectation Appledusk could of somehow saved all the kits by himself, is just unrealistic and unfair. Especially when Mapleshade herself couldn't save the kits. Yes, she's not a Riverclan cat but she had more time than anyone and actually had one kit in her mouth at one point but lost her grip on them. So if she couldn't save a single kit, she shouldn't expect others to. And even if he blamed Mapleshade for their deaths, he still does care about her. After he found her trespassing, falsely accuses him of killing their kits, threatening him and kidnapping his apprentice, he has every right to attack her. Yet he still gives the chance for her to leave peacefully: You killed our kits, making them cross The river. Let Perchpaw go and get out of here before I call for a patrol.” *In his Defense* (This one requires more context) Mapleshade waited for Appledusk to send the other warriors on ahead, to find some excuse to be alone with her so they could mourn their kits together before facing the rest of his Clan. But he didn’t turn back to look at her. He hasn’t even asked what I named them.' Chapter 4 - Directly after the kits' deaths. The reason he doesn't stop to talk to her privately is that he blames her for their kits' deaths and doesn't want to see her again. Why would someone want to have private time with the person they blame for their all children's deaths? Which it actually is her fault. Oakheart technically did the exact same thing to Mosskit. When Bluefur told him one was dead, he didn't even ask for her name either. But it's never brought up in the fandom, because the narrative doesn't draw attention because they want Oakheart to be seen as a positive character, despite doing the exact same thing as Appledusk. Appledusk wouldn't have any ill-tent towards his kits, specially after their deaths. As it would be out of character for him. Since we don't his PoV, his exact motives will never be known, but I'll still attempt to speculate. 1) He thought it was inappropriate to learn his children's names, from the person he blames for their deaths. He can learn from other cats, it didn't specially have to be Mapleshade. 2) He already knew their names without Mapleshade being aware. There were 2 moons between the kit's birth and deaths - So a lot of time for Appledusk to learn their names. Prime chances he had: Thunderclan speaking about them at the Gatherings or when Mapleshade ran into Appledusk when she took the kits to play in the river, in which she called them by name serval times. *Appledusk cared about his kits* He clearly cared about his kits and was upset when they died. Even in death he still loved them with all his heart and there’s clear evidence of this in chapter 5. Appledusk set down Petalkit’s body as gently as if she were sleeping." - Chapter 5, even when his kit is dead, Appledusk makes sure to be careful with their body. *What Appledusk did took courage* It's shouldn't be underestimated how much courage it takes to do what Appledusk did - Admitting absolutely everything to his Clan, accepting responsibility and begging for forgiveness. Appledusk could of taken the easy way out and purposefully blame Mapleshade or kits, maybe even insult them. But he doesn't, he takes the harder way out. Unlike Mapleshade, who refused to admit any of her crimes or even apologize. Actually threatening Thunderclan after her sentencing: You were my mentor, Bloomheart! You know I would never betray my Clan!” [...] “You have betrayed me and my kits. You will live to regret this day forever, ThunderClan, and that is a promise.” He was on very thin ice himself, and many cats needed him in Riverclan, including an apprentice and unborn kits. So he couldn't afford the risk of getting himself exiled in order to push his Leader's fragile mercy and stand up for his Forbidden mate. That would just demonstrate to Darkstar he's more loyal to Mapleshade then his Clan. And why would he want Mapleshade in his home and risk exile for her?: When she'd failed their shared responsibility to help protect the secret and kits, by bringing them down to the Riverclan border and letting them show off their Riverclan traits. And she recklessly crossed the flood: causing all their kits to die, almost got herself killed and forced Appledusk to risk his own life, along with two of his Clanmates. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to see someone like that again. Appledusk had a right to shut Mapleshade out of his life after doing something like that. Mates have broken up for far more minor reasons like as simple as not feeling like it's working out. Appledusk has one of the strongest reasons in the whole series to reject his mate, alongside Tigerclaw lying to Goldenflower about his murders.
And as for his punishment you people saying he deserved worse is incorrect as he hasn’t committed any crimes worthy of deserving worst than what he received. Punishing Appledusk would of just been unnecessary, when he'd already had been punished enough. In the form of losing an entire litter. Just like when Silverstream's death was considered punishment enough for Graystripe, just that for Apledusk, it was tripled with 3 deaths. He had also had his reputation ruined and mistrusted by all his clanmates, including being labelled a traitor. Mapleshade deserved exactly what she got. Because even before her kits demise she was a horrid person and mother. While I will defend her here, she shouldn’t have been exiled. Every Warrior counts. If Appledusk left, a Clanmate could die because he wasn't there to save them or starve because he wasn't there to catch those extra pieces of fresh-kill. Especially when it's was such a harsh season during Appledusk's sentencing. Darkstar even mentioning this: "This is not the season for losing warriors. Appledusk." - Chapter 4. Thunderclan was foolish to throw away a decent warrior and whole litter of innocent kits on ulimately more minor crime, while their anger and rage was justifiable I can’t say the same for the decision they made at that time,however, Riverclan is more merciful and doesn't make the same mistake. So Riverclan can't afford to be wasteful and needlessly exile warriors, when they are regretful and want to redeem themselves. Either Appledusk chooses to leave or Darkstar exiles him, nothing useful comes out of him being a rogue. It's clear he didn't want to be with Mapleshade after she made their kits swim in a flood, so he'd just be looking after himself and escaping his Warrior duties. His Riverclan kits would be needlessly devoid of a father, potentially affecting their ability as future warriors. Unlike his Thunderclan kits, which was a requirement for him to stay separate from for their own protection. If anything Mapleshade deserved even harsher punishment for the crimes she’s committed Mapleshade also does at least deserve a harsher punishment then Appledusk, as she's committed worse crimes. Appledusk was only in a forbidden romance with a regular Thunderclan cat, not telling them the existence of his Thunderclan family but showed some loyalty to Riverclan by taking on another legal mate. He acknowledged his crimes, confessed everything and begged for forgiveness. However, Mapleshade was mates with the Riverclan cat who "killed" two of her Clanmates, yet continued to love and see him even afterwards. She cruelly used one of the victims' names and his grieving family, including her best friend, pretending to be his mate and mother of his kits. And when she was exposed, she refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing and threatened Thunderclan after her sentence.
And you saying that he felt no remorse for killing Birchface and flowerpaw is also entirely false because it’s shown in one of the chapters that he regrets what he did. And he never called flowerpaw stupid either. He isn’t the bloodthirsty cat everyone makes him out to be. She felt Appledusk stiffen beneath his pelt. “It was an accident,” he growled. “I never meant for him to fall into the river.” Mapleshade closed her eyes. “That’s not the way my Clanmates see it. They blame you for both of our losses.” [...] “Then they are fools.” Appledusk shuddered, then relaxed." - Chapter 1. It uses language like shuddered and stiffened, Appledusk is having a physical reaction to when he's reminded of the accidental death he caused, clearly showing he's uncomfortable about it and yes, regretful. Accidental deaths happen all the time in battle, like with Whitethroat, Whiteclaw or Russetfur. And it's not the complete fault of the accidental killer either - Like the others examples, Appledusk and Birchface weren't in that situation willingly, they were following orders and trying to defend/claim territory for their Clans. Appledusk, a light brown RiverClan warrior with piercing green eyes, striking Birchface so hard that the ThunderClan cat lost his footing and slipped from the very top of Sunningrocks.” - Birchface and Appledusk were fighting in a high and dangerous area. Neither of them should of been fighting there and both were acting in self-defence. Also, it was Birchface himself who lost footing and tripped. And as for his cheating. Getting more onto Appledusk's accusation of cheating - Having multiple mates is the norm in Warriors. Queens are even respected if they don't wish to name the father of their kits - With no regard for the father himself. There are so many examples of multiple mates, many close to each other as well: Whitestorm, Brindleface, Goldenflower, Patchpelt, Dovewing, Crowfeather, Greystripe, Robinwing, etc. And from this list, many of those cats ain't considered "cheaters" and even seen as "Noble". And there's no reason they shouldn't be, they're only doing the norm of their society. The Horse Place cats do the same. Smokey was having litters with both Daisy and Floss, neither jealous of each other. Also, as soon as Dasiy entered Thunderclan and while Smokey's kits were newborns, she was already flirting with Cloudtail. Then when Hazeltail told her father about Spiderleg's litter, Smokey hardly reacted to his old mate finding a new lover. Yes I am defending his cheating as they are cats and wouldn’t even know what that is in the first place and as examples of cats not reacting to Ravenpaw and Barely being in a relationship because they don’t understand the concepts of being Gay,Bisexual,Lesbian or any other sexuality therefore they wouldn’t understand what cheating is. And as in the evidence I provided it’s normal for the cats of the clans to sometimes have multiple mates weither their first mate knows about it or not. And most wouldn’t even be bothered by it unless you’re overly possessive like Nightcloud or Mapleshade. But of course I don’t condemn cheating on your partner in real life because that’s just scummy. But I’m defending it here because 1. It’s fiction 2. Theyre cats and don’t understand the concepts of cheating nor sexualities. 3. A lot of the cats don’t give a fuck if their mate has a “sidepiece” (Unless your Nightcloud or Mapleshade) And there’s are a few reason as to why is cheating is morally good. All Forbidden Mates have done the same as Appledusk. Apart from Featherstorm and Fallowtail, all Forbidden mate have taken on cats from their own Clan as “Mates” to some extent or tricked them into adopting their kits: Mapleshade and Birchface Yellowfang and Lizardstripe, Raggedstar and Foxheart, Bluestar and Thrushpelt, Oakheart and Greypool, Leafpool and Brambleclaw, Crowfeather and Nightcloud, Dovewing and Bumblestripe, etc. Like when Dovewing, she’s seeing both Tigerheart and Bumblestripe around the same time, without the other being aware. And even admits she’s only trying out Bumblestripe because he’s Thunderclan. Or, when Bluefur allowed Thrushpelt to pose as her mate and father of her kits, when she was fully aware he was actually in love with her. That’s extremely close to becoming Thrushpelt’s actual mate when Oakheart was still alive and unaware. So was Bluefur “Cheating”? Even Mapleshade herself pretended to be the mate of the DECEASED Birchface and sister/daughter-law to his grieving family. She had 4 moons to correct this and has the Queen's right to keep the father nameless, yet didn't. Appledusk's accidental murder victim. Appledusk is no worse then Crowfeather, if not better. Which he is. He’s way better than crow feather could ever be. The earlier quotes prove Appledusk generally loves both his mates and all his kits, even if at the same time. Crowfeather didn't generally love either his mate or son and mistreated both of them. He also wasn’t aware of his Thunderclan kits, so when he took on Nightcloud, he was only doing it to protect himself. It's actually confirmed in The Ultimate Guide, Breezepelt was born before the Three. And when he exposed as the father of a Thunderclan litter, he denied it even though he knew he was guilty. And instantly disowned his Thunderclan litter just to protect himself. Meanwhile, Appledusk didn't disown Mapleshade as soon as he out found she was pregnant. He also never disowned his kits. He only did it to Mapleshade later on, for the far better reason of her causing all their kits' deaths by making them swim through a flood. And him being aware of 1st litter and taking on a Riverclan mate, was actually helping to protect his Thunderclan family. If Appledusk deserves the Dark Forest, so does Crowfeather.
Wow. An essay. I'm sorry, I don't really feel up to making a full reply to everything. But I don't think you really understood what I was trying to say, but I think that's on me. It boils down to this. I think that at the time mapleshade decided to cross the river, she had limited options, all of them unsafe. Some moreso than others. The river was not the safest, but it provided the best chance of safety on the other side. She rolled the dice and lost, but when she made the decision it was because she believed it to be the right one at the time. She tried her best and she lost everything. Mapleshade deserves the dark forest because she became an indiscriminate murderer, but I do not believe and never will believe that she deserved the level of punishment and suffering she received in response to her actions. The punishment does not fit the crime. And I don't think blaming her for her children's deaths is right or fair. And at the end of the day, you just don't have to agree with me. We can both interpret and analyze the text differently, and that's fine.
I agree with everyone on this list including Appledusk because he almost seemed to set up Mapleshade for banishment from the forest AND his own kit's death. also, it's so satisfying for me to think about Appledusk biting the dust in Mapleshade's claws.
FINALLY someone who acknowledges the shit raggedstar did i've only ever seen people make him out as victim, because yellowfang apparently was a horrible person for making desicsions of her own? i swear no one ever talks about how abusive he was towards yellowfang and it sickens me one cat i would have loved to see on the list and see you talk about though is lizardstripe, since she in my opinion put more hatred and anger in brokenstar then anyone did. she encouraged her own kits to bully him, put the blame on him when he did get bullied and literally tried to starve her. how could she ever had ended up in starclan? if i remember right she even said once about not even wanting her own kits
I saw this post one time, and it perfectly sums up CrookedStar and RainFlower's relationship: RF: Why dont you love me? I gave you life! CS: You gave me anxiety.
Mewmacree he’s not my least favourite cat but clear sky was getting on my nerves for AGGESS in Dotc UGHHH gray wing is favourite character and bc clear sky was mean I hate him that’s how it works
Consider: Oakstar goes to the Dark Forest (where ofc Mapleshade already is) and Mapleshade gets her revenge against the real cause of her kits' death
Yeah mapleshade was meant for murder lol
WillowHearts Warriors delicous
I think she should have killed him as well as the other three.
SAME!
That should happen
You've renewed my hatred for literally everyone in Mapleshade's Vengeance
Kyra the Kitty everyone was a terrible person back then, save for the kittypets, Birchface, and Flowerpaw. On a side note, if Birchface had lived, what would’ve happened? From what we were told, he sounded like a really cool dude. What if he had pulled a Thrushpelt and said he was Mapleshade’s kit’s father, then when Ravenwing revealed the omen, he’d challenge the medicine cat, who was a novice mind you, and Oakstar would side with his son
Yup.
@@dragonstouch1042 now I wanna make a au on that
What about Perchpaw?
Kyra the Kitty mine too
**throws Appledusk in the Dark Forest**
*Y E E T -*
**throws Oak-Star into the Dark Forest**
*D O U B L E Y E E T*
THROWS DARKSTAR ALONG TOO*
TRIPLE YEET
@@hannahmemes1057 **throws Ash-Fur into Dark Forest**
*Q U A D R U P L E Y E E T*
*throws RainFlower into the dark forest QUINTUPIL YEET
**throws Reedshine in the Dark Forest**
*SIXTUPLE YEET-*
Appledusk: (goes to Dark Forest)
Appledusk: (sees Mapleshade) HISSSS
Mapleshade: REEEEE
Both of them: (start trying to kick each other's butts)
Dark Forest Trainees: (surprised Pikachu face)
REEEEEEEEEE!!!
WHAHAHAHA IS SEE IT OMFL IM DED
Sorry I meant to say Maple Shade Mapleshade: if I don't have to tell Apple dust do I have to kill somebody else me: well I'll just pick him up and you can kill him Maple Shade: seems too easy me: what if I throw him to the tree and when he wakes up you can kill hem Mapleshade: all too easy me: you can make him feel pain in it like do it very slowly so you can feel the pain Mapleshade: ok >:3
So Apple dust can feel the pain sorry I am really tired
Yeah, but we could all agree appledusk was a bad PURRRRRRRRRRRRson
I like to think Appledusk was sent to the Darkforest and his eternal punishment for disloyalty was immortality but he had to always be killed by mapleshade when he revives and is destined to run from from her forever
Yeah, but we can all agree appledusk was a bad PURRRRRRRRson
no puns nope
Eclipsol except he doesn’t deserve to go to the dark forest, like at all.
My head cannon is he -is- in the dark forest, but he is hiding and is waiting until he can kill her
@@noytc he could have EASILY stopped maple from being so angry, maybe just said he moved on, or been softer to her, and GOD could they not have let her stay until morning? Appledusk was a BAD person, wether or not he saved his new mate, he CHOSE to LIE rather than be honest and give mapleshade some slack, he lied and ulimately RUINED her life.
i think a factor of hawkfrost going to the dark forest was his abuse of mothwing. if he had never faked the moth wing sign, mothwing’s faith would never have been shattered. and, hawkfrost tried to manipulate mothwing into faking a sign that he should be deputy. there are reasons for him to go to the dark forest.
also, this video is amazing! i love your opinions and headcannons.
I agree Hawkfrost should have gone to the dark forest, but I think Nate's point was more that if Hawkfrost went to the dark forest for that, Ashfur should've too. Because like Nate pointed out, they took the same life (which is arguable worse for Ashfur to have done, since taking the life of an enemy leader could be justified, taking the life of your own leader really can't be) and then Ashfur tried to murder 3 children (of his own clan, again!) and only stopped when he realized he had another way of hurting a girl for not dating him. So like, Hawkfrost probably deserves to be in the dark forest, but Ashfur does too.
If hawk heart didn't rip off the moths Wong starclan would've done it anyway actually
OML FINALLY SOMEONE WHO ACKNOWLEDGES OAKSTARS ACTIONS. If the Erin’s ever announced Oakstar went to the dark forest I’d honestly celebrate. And when he banished Mapleshades kits didn’t he pretty much break a rule in the warrior code? I thought there was a rule “No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan.” But I comply agree with every cat you put on this list haha!
CassiKat yeah he definitely broke the code when he banished mapleshades kits
We do not shit talk the cats in MapleShades Vengeance enough! OakStar Sucks! He should burn, he was like the worst ThunderClan Leader ever!DarkStar Too! And AppleDusk is just as evil! He cheated on MapleShade (MapleShade did to a bad thing dating him,But you don’t straight up abandon the relationship) He killed BirchFace and FlowerPaw and basicly dances on there grave.Then he Doesn’t even give his kits Corpses a second glance.Wonder how that went for him in StarClan, I wanna see the Erin’s make a little comic of AppleDusk and MapleShades Kits confronting AppleDusk about not giving a shit about them and being disgusted by them.
CassiKat No your right.
“He killed Birchface and Flowerpaw and Basicly dances on there grave.”
I’m Lmao that part when you said he dances on their graves XD
CassiKat he gave Pinestar a life so no
at the end of your vids you should say later naters
oh thats VERY good
Please do..
Nate : Oakstar is Pinestar's father --
me : SO THAT'S WHY TIGERSTAR IS EVIL KIDS. GETS IT FROM HIS GRAND POPS
bridget mcalister true true
I thought it was because he didn’t wanna be like his dad. Oh well, I guess the cannon isn’t cannon.
Your absolutely right.
Also I know I'ma git wooshed but but togerkit was spoiled heavily because he was the only kit in the nursery and there was 3 queens, all expecting exept for Leopard foot, his mother (also pinestar was bad for dating a cat 5 years younger than him and then not caring when 2 of the kits died, then just left)
Yeah
Hey everyone! doesn't everyone remember when Onestar/whisker was an actual cool character in the first series?
Yep
Aye
I wish he didn't change :c
One of my siblings loves Onestar.
@@peachtea7269 that's not cashmoney
Captions: Apple desk
Me: Well he is horrible
lmao
Who is Apple desk?
@@lauras9813 Apple desk = Appledusk
Oakstar in captions is oak Starr,Reedshine is Reach shine,Flowerpaw is flower pod/flower pots, Thunderclan is thunder client,Graystipe is Gracie,Appledusk is Appleis/Apple desk Riverclan is River Klan/River clam and Kittypets are kitty bats.
@@juliaguevara4512 *c h i v e c l o t h*
Erins make more female antagonists challenge
“An evil medicine cat?! That’s be so cool!”
Me: I have one of those. Why don’t the books? They have a pedophile, an abusive mom, a nice guy, a revenge seeking stereotypical villain, a justified mother, why don’t we have an evil doctor in cannon.
1:00
Who the dark forest is that!?
That's not Ashfur!!
WHERE IS MY BOI'S GOLDEN LOCKS!?
Lol moonkitti
Oh Moonkitti's design's back.
Moon kitti s desing n*fhs
XDD
Exactly I swear if I’m the movie Ashfur doesn’t have golden Locks I’m gonna be sooo annoyed 😂 we need moonkitti to do the designs
I want a poster of so many cats saying “--- deserved it~”
Like, just a collage of them. HollyLeaf saying “AshFur deserved it”
MapleShade saying “AppleDusk deserved it”
Hell, maybe even Scourge saying “TigerStar deserved it!”
I need like a whole poster of those 😂
Elizabeth spencer now I need a t-shirt of scourge saying tigerstar deserved it xD
Same dude I feel you they’re hilarious
I need a shirt with Firestar saying, "Scourge Deserved It!".
I legit just drow holly leaf with a sh fur deserved it, scourge with TIGERSTAR deserved it, and mapleshade saying crookedstar deserved it
Elizabeth spencer ahah yessss!
I actually have a medicine cat oc thats evil and its so fun to imagine what an evil medicine cat can do, from drugging cats with like poppy seeds or mildly poisonous plants that if given yarrow quickly wont kill them and forcing them to give up information to luring a leader to the moonpool into a trap, its so much fun
what about catnip?
Could probably get more morally dubious cats to do things that seem not too bad for catnip, or if another clan desperately need it hold it over there head for information or supplies, it isnt addictive unfortunately so theres no getting cats hooked on it, but its still a very good experience for cats so there'd be cats willing to maybe pick a specific plant, or give you an alibi, or whatever if you give them some
Withercats smh the Erins beat you to that one. It’s called ThunderClan in leaf-bare.
skyhowler yeah thats fucking fair enough
Same, i have an evil med cat oc and its really fun and creative to think of ways that they can defeat other cats. And i love him X3
I always get angry when the ONE cat in Mapleshades vengeance that the only semi-decent cat that I wanted to see more character development on was the ONLY one they sent to the dark forest!
Lmao yeah. Yeah she was like. In a pretty vulnerable state at the time and all she did was not jump into a raging river and drown when there was already a lifeguard there. But what do I know lol
Frecklewish is baby
I refuse to believe Frecklewish ended up in the DF. She was not aware the kits were in danger, and even if she was, she could not swim. Not to mention, she was in a deep depressive state
Yellowfang said Ashfur only loved too much, which is B.S. bc if that were the case Mapleshade wouldn't be in the df either? Get yo facts straight.
emmyelizabeth98 6 months late but if I’m not mistaken, didn’t mapleshade want to go to the dark forest?
emmyelizabeth98 EXACTLY OMG YES
This comes back to bite yellow fang in the ass when Ash fur takes over star clan and starts a destructive evil star clan crusade...
Mapleshade killed two cats, and wanted to be in the dark forest because she wanted to be with cats that were just like her.
Uh no Ashfur killed/help killed one cat and tried to kill three kits, Mapleshade killed Ravenwing, Frecklewish, AppleDusk, I think that's all when she was alive not sure..But anyways She killed a medicine cat that's a big no no in warriors so yes she deserves to go to the dank faucet.
I am sorry but you forgot this part here about Darkstar (mapleshade 's Vengeance)
Appledusk: "I will never forget your mercy Darkstar. Thank you. I promise my loyalty lies only with RiverClan, and my Clanmates.
"Darkstar: "Rainfall, help Splashfoot and Eeltail to bury these kits. The accident of their birth is not their fault. They may lie in peace in our territory now."
Chapter 4
Joana Feitosa yeah, where does it say she told them to bury the kits away from their dead?
Page 51 - 52.
Also, it says nothing about them being sloppily buried in the mud.
Bella the gaming creeper it does
But he does also just let AppleDusk off for free- and denied MapleShade shelter, but he is still a bad cat. He didn’t help the she-cat who was just kicked away from her friends and family because she had kittens with one of your warriors who DIeD and she is now wet, cold, and hungry in the middle of the night. You then bury them away from your warriors, and let the father off with bassicly no punishment, leading said she-cat too revenge because everyone abandoned her in her time of need.
OakStar Totally deserved it. He killed CHILDREN. like wtf. They were innocent children who did NOTHING
So true, he even made kitty pets suffer by leading suprise attacks on two leg place.
So did AppleDusk
oakstar was heartbroken over the fact that mapleshade lied about who the father was. he was manipulated to believe that his son was the father of her kits, when it was actually the killer of his son.
now, should he have kicked them out, with the kits being young? no. but he is not the cause, he had no control over the actions that unfolded. mapleshade's impatience is what caused the kits to die.
One Eye(Dawn Of the Clans) didnt believe in Star Clan but was still send to the Dark Forest,he was known as the first one in the Dark Forest and some say he was the first one to greet Mapleshade there.
With this as a fact,Darktail and Scourage should be in the Dark Forest
If the Erins disprove them then Cloudtail and Mothwing cant be Star Clan cats when they die
The death thing in Warriors is vague and needs some rules too
I think Darktail knew about the Darkforest so he might believe in heavan
cat foy You mean StarClan?
But they need to be part of the clans to join them.
Alec Weber, what about Barley then? Or Princess? What happens to them? Or Jake?
If I remeber correctly, one of the Erin stated that Jake sometimes pay a visit to Tallstar in Starclan, so, it means he isn't in Starclan.
11. draikinator
im already there bitch
@@Draikinator Omg they got roasted clapping in applause
Draikinator if you’re there, why do you want cats you don’t like to be there? XD
so i can eat them
Draikinator lol
Oh god that first scene where Rainflower was arguing with shellheart about renaming stormkit and then later on when brambleberry was comforting him, they were just so sad ahhhH that book made me cry
Winter Warrior O FRICK ITS FUNNY SEEING U HERE DUDE! (I’m the person who sent u that u were on my recommended “Art boards” on Pinterest )
@@nycureamy Oh wow 😯
Yo. Almost as good as Tallstar's Revenge.
Nate you have a superpower,
You can make AU's less in 1 minute.
Starclan: Sees Hawkfrost killing Firestar*
Starclan: GASP* “Don’t u hurt our bby!!! >:(“ Sends Hawkfrost to the Dark Forest
Hawkfrost: ... Wot. Oh well, atleast I can see my dad.
Dayum you should make a Hawkheart au
Love your UA-cam channel, helps me alot
WarriorsUnlimited yea
This OC color palette is on fleek.
Okay so the whole Hawkfrost going to the DF thing,,,
He was training in the DF before he died, and was following Tigerstar's wishes the entire time. Thistleclaw was the same. They didn't really KILL anyone that we saw.
Thistleclaw killed in the DF, so who is to say that Hawkfrost didn't?
I believe that they both CHOSE the Dark Forest.
This is open for discussion also.
If I remember correctly, cats can choose to go to the DF, like Antpelt did.
@fluffypuffyfox owo Yeah, because they chose against it. Hawk and Thistle embraced the DF the entire time.
So, apparently in Spottedleaf's Heart Thistleclaw had murdered someone in the Dark Forest. I mean, plus the whole Spottedleaf scenario (which I wish didn't happen, tbh I liked Thistleclaw before the Spottedleaf thing?)
You know normally I don't deny cannon stuff but I just want to pretend Spottedleaf's Heart never happened. It kind of ruins the books.
0h Nutty I feel you honestly. It was really bad.
Sky star kinda redeemed himself in the end
Ashfur; yes Ashfur to cat hell, he broke the code multiple times. Yeah getting his heart broken is sad but he let his hatred Get the better of him and made him go insane.
Hawkheart; i don’t remember him
Raggedstar; he should’ve gone to the dark forrest but so many former shadowclan cats are in the dark forrest.
Rainflower; abusive mom should go to hell
Duskstar; i don’t know him.
Appledusk; he basically made Mapleshade evil. He is kinda of a cat sosiopath.
Darkstar; I don’t know her (haven’t read mapleshade’s vengance)
Onestar; I disagree, yes he made mistakes however when shit got real he stood up for the clans.
Darktail; one of the best villians, I think he is in there though.
Oakstar; i don’t remember him.
Hawkheart killed Bluefur/star’s mom.
Crookedstar’s mom’s punishment it to be alone and constantly judged in StarClan.
I think RainFlower deserves it the least of these cats, she did redeem herself in the end, and even though it doesn’t mean much, but it’s still something. She also only affected one cat, and dint directly or indirectly kill anyone.
Clear Sky should have been punished while he was alive, and in a very simple way: remove him from his leadership position and prevent him from ever having one again. This dude is objectively not a good leader, so just don't let him have power again. When he's not in control, he can be a decent guy(the journey from the mountains, risking his life to be a trap for One Eye).
im surprised you dont remember Oakstar
*Yeets Appledusk, Darkstar, Oakstar, Ravenwing, Rainflower and Onestar to the dark forest*
swagfoxy4 what about Ashfur...... HES A JERK AND A MURDERER
He did murder Firestar but didn't get exiled.
@@alex-zd2kw ...broken code plot..?
Spoopy Mantis oh yeah fair enough
Raggedstar also murdered (more of killed) Hal without any *specific* justified reason, so doesn't that kind of count? Or does only killing clan cats count?
Well.. Raggedstar got karma :V He killed Hal, then He killed by His son..
And then his son got karma, got killed by his mom
@@boyloverhiiro8937 and then His mother got killed in fire.. Damn.. The whole Raggedstar's family is insane?
Yep
@@boyloverhiiro8937 Yellow fang is not insane, she felt ready to die by broken star when thunder clan attacked shadow clan's camp, and that 1 time shadow clan are snitches-
Shadow Clan tell all the clan's about the 'murderous' she rogue.
100% agree with all of this but wanna mention another reason why Onestar should burn. When shadowclan was sick windclan had the herb they needed but Onestar was a prick so he always said no and was basically responsible for the death of Crowfrost, and I'm pretty sure Rowanstar lost a life too, or more lives. And I'm sure some other cats died too. So,,,yeah burn onestar
Onestar really IS a prick. I swear. I remember before reading to the point where he became leader (this was a while ago) and my friend basically spoiled me on random things and said he became leader. She said he was a douchebag and I was like "really he's not that bad" but then leadership happened
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS
By the way, with Oakstar, he actually BROKE THE WARRIOR CODE by banishing Mapleshade's kits. The warrior code may state that "You may not be mates with a cat from another Clan," which Mapleshade broke, but the warrior code ALSO states that "No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, regardless of heritage!" TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, GENIUS!
Yeah! An evil medicine cat would be awesome!
I do have an evil medicine cat OC named Bearglow. His main reason on why he's evil is to have as many kits as possible to spread his gene pool throughout all the clans with as many she-cats as possible while at the same time, manipulating his "mates" and his kits. And other stuff too like, handing out "prophecies" to get things he wanted but he does receive prophecies from StarClan so you never know if it's real or not. All you have to do is trust him.
Yeah, yeah, it might sound stupid but hey! I think it's quite fun! And it makes great fanart!
I have an au I call evil Patchkit where Starclan just exiled him for no reason and his siblings stay because Appledusk doesn't want to make himself "look bad".and apparently exiling all his kits? No no no. Exiling one kit and keeping the others? Fine. And of course,he chose Patchkit because he looked most like Mapleshade. After a long time he wants revenge. Mostly because he changed over time. I'm not telling you the rest because I plan on doing something in the future with it.
I don't like your AU
Hold on, I have an idea for an AU about if Mapleshade did go to twoleg place and be sort of a feral cat. She meets a nice kittypet who fights back when thunderclan attacks her nest. Soon, a raid against the kittypets happens and other cat joins in to fight back. A tom enters and kills one of her kits, calling them halfclan mistakes. She attacks and fends him off before he can kill the rest of them. Thunderclan goes back to camp after they have nearly kilked a few kittypets and Mapleshade and the she cat she meet earlyer bury her kit deeply in a flowerbed. The she cat offers her help from her twolegs and she accepts to get treatment for her wounds. She trains her two remaining kits and more kittypets battle moves to begin a war against Thunderclan. Soon she has a clans worth of kittypets and rouges to go to war with Thunderclan. Mapleshade, now Maple orders her full grown sons, Larch (Larchkit) and Patch (Patchkit) to hunt down Appledusk while Maple leads the kittypets and rouges to Thunderclan camp. They soon find Appledusk on a patrol with Reedshine. Larch lures Reedshine away and pins her down in a bush. Patch lunges towards Appledusk. Appledusk asks who this strange rouge is. Patch says he was his kit, before he betrayed him and his family. They battle for a bit when Reedshine escapes Larch's clutches only to see Appledusk get murdered by Patch.
I WANT MORE OF THIS
Am I the only one who thinks lizardstripe should go to the dark forest? Or even Mudclaw?
LIZARDSTRIPE WAS #11 AKJSLASFNLAKJFS
Mudclaw probably would've made a better leader than Onestar tbh
I agree with Lizardstripe but not Mudclaw.
He led the rebellion because he believed that the Thunderclan cats were lying about Tallstar making Onestar deputy.
Deerwind
Mudclaw had *every reason* to think that though!! Tallstar was close friends with Firestar, as was Onewhisker/Onestar, and Brambleclaw was the only other cat there and he was a candidate for Thunderclan deputy. If we hadn’t read it from Brambleclaw’s perspective how do you think it would’ve looked from the outside? Suspicious? Yes. Mudclaw was chosen to be deputy after the battle with Bloodclan, when Tallstar was still in his right mind. Onewhisker was chosen at the last minute on Tallstar’s deathbed because he didn’t think Mudclaw would keep the friendship between their clans intact. In the end though ONESTAR DIDN’T EITHER!! So it’s easy to make a case that Mudclaw could’ve been a good leader and that Tallstar wasn’t in his right mind when he made Onewhisker the new Leader Of Windclan and the fact that Tallstar’s Thunderclan allies were there only seemed to solidify that theory.
Mudclaw had perfect reason to think Onestar shouldn't have been leader
I heard the words "The other day I was cha-" and I fully expected you to finish that sentence with "chased down a hallway by a giant cube with the word AVOID on it."
I've been playing VVVVVV way too much.
I agree with everything you said here, though! Especially with Darkstar, Oakstar, and Appledusk. They're all terrible people.
you: * talking about making an evil medicine cat *
also you: * makes evil spottedleaf *
Next video:
Nate Speaks: My Top Ten Evil Warrior Cats Who SHOULD Come Back to the Books
Sol
@@jedi_cat_l4976 Sol... Snowkit... Yup
Scourge of course.
Hey Draik! I’d love to hear a Top 10 Warriors AUs or theories from you, since you have so many. By the way I am living for that new intro~
I CAN SEE IT NOW! EVIL MED CAT AUS FLOODING THE AU MARKET PLACE!
Honestly, I really want Redtail to have killed Thistleclaw and blamed it on a RiverClan patrol and then go to the Dark Forest. Maybe not the last part, idek XD
I love the ‘Appledusk deserved it’ drawing so much that I went on Amino and saved it
As for the LGBT+ headcannons, Night x Feather all the way. 100%. That ship is my life.
Why i should go to the Dark Forest
I did unrelated posts on Warrior cats Amino
I used to actively fight the LT smh I'll join you
That rant about Onestar filled me with satisfaction, but besides all the terrible things he did, I'd argue that killing Darktail isn't just not enought, it's no step towards redemption at all. Darktail and his buddies had already lost, thanks to the courage and determination of dozens of cats(of which Onestar was not a part of). Killing his own son was pointless and frankly insulting to all those that had lost so much more because of Darktail than he ever did. It's a convenient way for him to escape the consequences of his actions and to ease his conscience. If that's not evil, then I don't know what is.
7:50 i feel like darkstar knew reedshine and appledusk where mates and that mapleshade still loved appledusk so she didnt want any kind of trouble within riverclan but i do feel it was wrong of her to excile a nearly drowed greiving she cat with no where to go and do to nothing about appledusk
Moonfeather :3 I mean, Mapleshade was a liability to the clan. Not only could she not swim and would not be accepted by the other warriors, it could’ve also drawn the ire of Thunderclan
Dragon’s Touch True, but even though it was probably best that Mapleshade shouldn’t have been accepted into RiverClan, it doesn’t excuse the fact that Darkstar basically let Appledusk off the hook. If you’re gonna punish one cat part of the forbidden relationship, you need to punish both of them. Yeah, there was the whole “this isn’t the season for losing warriors” thing, but I’m sure there are punishments other than exile
@@lpsgirlanimations3974 Darkstar never only punished one of them though, she wasn't the one who punished Mapleshade, she simply didn't allow her to join Riverclan which makes sense as in every angle, she'd be a liability. Plus Appledusk lost his children which is a punishment in a way. If it seems Mapleshade was unfairly punished compared to Appledusk, that's more on Oakstar than Darkstar. Darkstar wasn't obligated to be cruel just since Oakstar had been.
They shouldve shown how truly evil, selfish, and narcissistic Mapleshade was by making Oakstar keep the kits in ThunderClan.
Mapleshade then sneaks back in to camp to kidnap her kits, showing off the "if i cant have them, no one can" mindset she had with Appledusk. She takes them to Riverclan thinking her kits will be leverage for her to get accepted (which she does outright think in the book).
The kits die the same way, with Mapleshades impatience and insistence on swimming in the river. This time though, Frecklewish, who went out to frantically look for the kits, comes out to testify against Mapleshade to the RiverClan patrol and reveal the full story. Darkstar rejects her on the basis of being a kidnapper who killed her kits. Everything else works out the same (Appledusk fucked up but didnt deserve the DF for what was effectively cheating).
The rest of the story stays the same, as it already pretty well demonstrates that Mapleshade is an awful cat. She refuses any help, can't move on, cant acknowledge her mistakes, murders 3 cats in cold blood, is possessive of an ex (If this story was from a male perspective I dont think anyone would deny her actions to Appledusk were psychotic. Shes a female Ashfur.), is willing to kill an apprentice/pregnant cat, and rejects any discussion.
OP you're SO right like the narrative really wanted to convince me mapleshade was selfish and could never accept blame and I feel like ultimately failed to do so in the first half but that absolutely would have pulled it all together
Draikinator: Everyone says it's Mapleshade's fault that her kits died!
Me: IT IS! She could've went to Wind clan, or started her life as a rogue! Maybe even became a kittypet. SHE DIDNT HAVE TO CROSS THE RIVER. She thinks Appledusk belongs to her and thinks she can get away with anything! The only real punishment she ever had was being exiled and her kits dieing. Other than that, she is ENTITLED. IT IS HER FAULT.
it's maple's fault but at the same time it's really oakstar's fault for sending three kits who did nothing wrong out of the clan
3:50 Nate creates an entire au while doing a top 15 list
The reference to the “Mama, We All Go To Hell” MAP with emo Ashfur made me literally fangirl screech
Everyone in Mapleshade's Vengeances is a horrible person
Sad Myler noises
Except the kits
The ONLY problem I have with onestar is he COMPLETLY changed the MOMENT he became leader, his opinions with thunderclan changed, his friendships changed, his personality changed, EVERYTHING. I heavily doubt he would have even had kits had he not been suddenly changed so much when he became leader.
Dark tail does know about Starclan
Cause
He said something like
“Will a cat that kills his own son go to starclan? Think about that when you’re on your last life.”
I think it wouldve been good to also include the fact that Appledusk blamed Mapleshade for their kits deaths. Imagine blaming the terrified, exiled mother that YOU LED ON AND DECIDED TO TURN YOUR BACK TO FOR ANOTHER CAT BEHIND HER BACK, FOR THE DEATH OF HER CHILDREN
Like he's 50% at fault for her position to begin with- HE impregnated her (of course Mapleshade shouldve known better too)! But then he has the nerve to not suck up to it and 100% blame her for everything like he wasnt an idiot too!
I think it's really important to remember that mapleshade always intended to tell the truth! She says it over and over again. She is waiting until her children are old enough they will not be blamed for her crimes. She wants to wait until they are adults. And she was RIGHT- they WERE banished for HER crimes she says point blank again and again that she has every intention of taking responsibility for her actions, telling the truth, and accepting her punishment.
Yes I agree 100%
@@Draikinator I don't think the exile was solely because it was a Riverclan cat, but because it was Birchface's name she used. That's obviously going to be a sore spot for Frecklewish and Oakstar. She could have declined Frecklewish's assumption and refused to name the father, as is in the queen's rights. Lying by omission is still lying, and Mapleshade essentially took advantage of a grieving sister, and clan.
There were other places for Mapleshade to go with the kits, such as twoleg-place (and no, there weren't raids on it yet, that was only mentioned in Pinestar's Choice) and if you look at the old territory maps you technically you can make it to Riverclan from Thunderclan in other ways, even without crossing the river. Even if they did have to cross the river, this was one of the widest parts as well.
Appledusk, the Riverclan patrol, even her own kits, warned her the river was too dangerous, and she still went. Also Appledusk had warned her against bringing the kits to meet him so often but she did it anyway, and lo and behold, that's when Ravenwing saw and made the connection.
Appledusk isn't blaming her for the kits existing, he was happy about that, so the 50% argument doesn't make sense. He blames her for their deaths and honestly, yes it could have been prevented if she went another way. If she had moved on, this fault could have been forgiven as it was an accident, but since Mapleshade is so insistent on blaming everyone but herself for the kits' deaths, I can't help but notice the irony and the total lack of self awareness.
@@brishtisengupta7180 I think you interpreted parts of the narrative differently than I did. Yes, it wasnt mentioned in MV, but was in PC, but I felt that it was strongly implied that these raids were not new, and had been ongoing, perhaps even traditional. You are completely welcome to feel differently. You can interpret it as being the first time. But it doesn't actually definitively say either way, so neither of us are correct, we simply have different interpretations of the text. Or, well, I an moonkitti have different interpretations of the text. I know her talking points. She's got a fair interpretation, i simply disagree.
It was preventable. Mapleshade made the incorrect decision. The point I was trying to make, the point I was always trying to make in regards to MV, was that the options presented to her at the time were almost all bad. It was not that everything was worse than the river, that she made the right call. She didn't. I think she should have gone around. But if she had, she ran the risk of being caught by a patrol, and she'd just been told they would kill her if they caught her. Would they really? maybe she doesnt know. Other places weren't safe either. Every direction she could have gone held some kind of risk, but riverclan offerred the highest chance of safety, so that's the decision she made. And when she rolled the dice, she lost. But she also could have lost if she chose to go to twolegplace and a human found her and took her kittens, or a dog attacked, or if she had passed through another clan and been attack by a patrol, or if shed gone off territory and been attacked by a fox or badger or hawk. All of the options before her held a risk of death, and the river was more risky, but more reward, and Mapleshade.... was very naive. She genuinely was shocked that her clan was so upset at her about what she'd done. she even told appledusk at one point her half clan kits may be the key to ending the war between her clans. She was concerningly optimistic and naive. And before the accident she said clearly, in the text, she had always intended to take responsibility for what she had done, WHEN her kits were old enough they wouldnt be blamed for her crimes- and in the end, was she not right? they WERE blamed for her crimes. and then AFTER the accident suddenly its everyone else's fault. She has a major shift in the way she thinks and speaks that I think makes it clear she's suffering from serious delusions and an emotional breakdown. After the accident she DOES have a total lack of self awareness, she blames everyone else for her problems, she's erratic and cruel. But I think that behaviour was a direct result of what happened. That's it. it's not that mapleshade did nothing wrong, its that i personally feel it is cruel and unusual to villify a mother for her children dying in a tragic accident when, even if the call wasn't the best one, it was the decision she genuinely believed was the right one at the time. villify her for, you know, the murders. the murders are villain behaviour.
"We don't have any evil madicine cats"
*cough* Spottedleaf *cough*
Maybe Oakstar did go to the dark forest but Mapleshade killed him upon seeing him.
This is the first video I’ve seen from you but I already L.O.V.E your O.C!
Honestly I never understood the huuuuge amount of hatred towards Rainflower. I'm not saying that her actions were justifiable (she's an absolute moron) but after reading Crookedstar's Promise, I never found Rainflower to be that abusive. Sure, Crookedstar felt abandoned, but at least he had Brambleberry. Why does nobody talk about Brambleberry's relationship with Crookedkit anyways, she makes a good mother to him in my opinion. Sandgorse was more abusive. There, I said it.
they were both abusive. rainflower literally abandoned him in the nursery to sleep alone? she hated him
Neglect is still abuse. Crooked made it a main point in most of his life to make her proud. 'He had Brambleberry' I mean that's still not helpful when your birth mother is still in the picture and wants nothing to do with you.
Rainflower blames him for his own disfigurement (Which was Goosefeather's Fault), she has Hailstar change his name to scar him forever, and then forced him, a kit, to sleep by himself. She called him ugly and constantly belittled him, saying that Oak would always be better than him. That's not abusive? If she was person, she'd be in jail with people coming after her.
What if Crooked had still been nursing? She probably would have asked another clanmate to feed him. So she was so vain, she broke up her own family and didn't even care. And even then, Crooked felt grief over 'letting' her die. He didn't curse her dead body or even curse her name. He, until Mapleshade, had been trying to help, when technically he could have originally just let her die.
The fact that Crooked still had love for her, just made the whole situation sad.
Sandgorse? More abusive? Rainflower literally ditched fucking crookedkit for his looks, not even for who he was! And even if it were the case that she ditched him for who he was personality wise, that's still messed up! And Sandgorse LOVED tallpaw.
Relooking on this, I kinda wanna give my opinions on these entries.
*10.* Ashfur… Yeah get him there already. He technically completed one murder (one of Firestar’s lives in the fox trap) and as far as I know so far attempted three (Lionpaw whilst training and, of course, the fire scene). So, why isn’t he in the Dark Forest, despite literally trying to kill three cats over selfish love?
*9.* Hawkheart. I listened to your reasons here, as I haven’t read Mapleshade’s Vengeance and all I know about it is from Bright Guardian Akira. I see no reason to put him there until it’s shown what he did to go there. Would agree if he had killed off Chiveclaw, and we do need an evil med cat.
*8.* Raggedstar. Actually, as he only inspired Brokenstar’s violence, I see no reason for that particular reason. It also depends on exactly what he did to Yellowfang while he was alive.
*7.* Moonflower, I agree. The Warrior Code says all kit lives are precious. For the love of StarClan, Tigerstar as a kit was saved from a fox by ShadowClan warriors and promised to repay them (which he does)! So why the heck should you abuse your son for an injury?
*6.* SkyClan Darkstar. Actually, he didn’t do anything to deserve Dark Forest status. If he made that part of the Code, it’s legal, exploitable as it may be. If he abused his Clanmates into following it before it became a Code I totally see that.
*5.* Appledusk. He was well within his reasons to be hostile: he could have been nicer, but he WAS following the Code about defending territory and staying loyal to his Clan. I’m mainly basing these on following the Code, so unless there was a buttload of codebreaking and bad actions behind the scenes that weren’t to benefit more than a leader’s action, I don’t see him in the Dark Forest. Guiltless doesn’t always mean evil in a world with a lot of war.
*4.* Second RiverClan Darkstar. I can’t decide. I think she shouldn’t go for driving out Mapleshade (see Appledusk), but should go for disrespecting the dead kits.
*3.* Onestar. Well, yes. Attacking kits and elders was extremely bad.
*2.* Darktail, yes. All the reason you listed.
*1.* Oakstar. GO. THE FUCK. TO THE DARK FOREST RIGHT NOW. He put kits in danger, which is against the Code. Both Codes protecting kits are at play here: first, the kits were way too young to defend themselves and couldn’t live without Mapleshade. My idea is keep them until six moons, and give them the choice to be an apprentice in ThunderClan but never see their mother as an ally again or go with their mom and be exiled. At that point, there was nothing too wrong. There’s nothing about the Twolegplace raids unless he killed at least two defenseless kittypets in my opinion. If the kittypets attacks first, it doesn’t count as you are allowed to kill if attacked.
Can help you out with Darkstar, she never disrespected the dead kits, don't know where this vid got that from. She said to bury them alongside Riverclan dead.
No, the OakStar did not break the law - he did not force the children to swim across the river, he simply drove them out along with the mapleshade, and then she chose to drown the kittens. Although she could go to the barn, cross the river on the bridge and many other things, so... No
Number 7: Tigerstar mother is Leapaodfoot, his mother don't bully him
Moonflower is Bluestar mother.
Is Crookedstar was bully by his mother Rainflower
Darkstar don't do this, she just exile Mapleshade.
Moonflower is Bluestar’s mom, pretty sure you’re talking about Rainflower and Crookedstar. Rainflower was the one who treated Crookedstar badly just because of an injury.
Rain flower not moon flower :)
This is a Onestar hate account
Assfur x dorkfrost
Lmao
Oak star: I banish u!
Maple shade: D:
Oak star: I banish your kits too
Maple shade: D: D:
Maple shade: meh kit dead
Oak star: it’s your fault your kits died. I did not banish you at night with your kits in the middle of flood season where the only place you could go was river clan.. I would never!
Maple shade: I kill u all now •3•
Idk...
Appledusk DID care about his kits. That's why he hated Mapleshade. He blamed her for their deaths.
“I would love to see a evil medicine cat!” Well... you know.. there’s always spottedleaf?
/Silenced Dreams/ - Hawkheart's novel
That HawkHeart Idea should become a Au Map. MAKE A MAP
*EDIT: Ignore every single comment I made on any of Dr*kinator's videos. A lot of my opinions are outdated and I regret commenting on their videos.*
Moonflower was just following her leader’s orders. Remember that one of the rules of the Warrior Code is to always listen to your leader, since their word is the law.
Also, I think that Lizardstripe should’ve been on the list as well. And Frecklewish from Mapleshade’s Vengeance broke the Warrior Code by leaving three innocent kits to drown.
Meanwhile on the list...
"This rule is bullshit"
But what could frecklewish have done to save them?
Frecklewish couldn't have saved them, it was a flood, she would've died.
Well Frecklewish _is_ in the Dark Forest now, so...
I really like the idea of Appledusk going to the Dark forest and getting brutally murdered by Mapleshade. (My personal head cannon)
I don't know how I didn't find you sooner. I ADORE all of your head cannons, and would honestly love to see a rewrite of the story with purely your head cannons. You've definitely earned yourself a new follower!
OOOOOO. You should make an au where Mapleshade and Appledusk stay together and Reedshine becomes the major antagonist.
Yeah...Ashfur obviously deserves to go to the Darkforest, but I really wish he was written better. When I was a young kid reading the books, Ashfur was one of my favorites, and I thought for sure that he'd get with Squirrelflight, because they always got along so well, and Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw always bickered! For me, their relationship seemed to come out of nowhere.
Also.... I really wish he didn't have to bury his own goddamn mother. That would traumatize anyone
wizzaroot. The CRINGE Channel I feel like Squirrelflight is a part of Ashfur’s rage. Considering she let him along for how long ? She played with his feelings because she just got into an arguement with Brambleclaw, and eventually started getting cozy with Ashfur. That let him to think that she was interested in him, she was using him because she was an upset brat. I don’t know honestly, Ashfur would have been fine if it wasn’t for Squirrelflight
@@LadyCallow But Squirrelflight considered ashfur as a mate and thought of him in a romantic way. She did not play with Ashfur's feelings
@@herbleave8023 LMFAO yeah, this was 15 year old me speaking. I do not agree with my comment from 3 years ago nor did I remember me making this comment lolol
@@LadyCallow I'm so sorry if I sounded rude. I didn't know
@@herbleave8023 It’s all good!
So I have a au idea on rouges that are in the dark forest and a couple other things
So the basic things
-the dark forest can watch over the clans and if they can or can’t in the books it’s in here anyways
-hawkheart,Darktail,ashfur, and scourge are in the dark forest maybe rain flower but she gets allowed into starclan being led into it by crooked star
- the dark forest gets a bit more power enough to give cats they think are worthy a power every 6 moons
-one of breezepelts siblings survive with him (swiftkit/swiftflower)
- swiftflower gets a power first I’m not sure yet but one related to sneaking or speed
- breezepelt gets a power related to dodging strength or sneaking
- the dark forest is much more powerful than in the books
- the dark forest can see visions like seeing if a cat can become a powerful dark forest warrior in the future
- a little from the the spirit suffix video it like breezespirit but with two cats that share the hate the have for their father and clan mates
- when breezepelt attacks jay Feather i think swiftflower watching carefully in some bushes nearby to see if breezepelt succeeds and she jumps in to save him and get him out of there like to show they feel like they only have each other in their world
I would love to see someone expand on this
Top ten names for both warrior cats and Transformers!!
I love that Ashfur went to Starclan bc I can imagine him mocking the fact that he ended up there considering what he had comiited in the past.
I was like "Where is Oakstar?" And there he was.
I have a feeling some riverclan cats were so disgusted by both appledusk having a thunderclan mate but then telling his dead children were mistakes and they plotted against him but mapleshade got to him first
Also onestar be lookin at oakstar like "tf dude"
Your Ashfur design gives him another eye for an eyebrow.
Listening to Drakinator rant about Oakstar fills you with..............
*DETERMINATION*
Evil medicine cat? *looks at the story I'm currently creating then thinks* if i could fit that in... but no... it would be two male villianous characters... ehhh.... um... OH, I KNOW! I make a second story with mind control! Yes!
I would love to see both of those videos you suggested at the end! You've got some really interesting takes on warriors and I'd love to hear more!
Awhile back I was watching a video on why Ashfur didn't go to the darkforest and i've held the reasoning close to my heart since. I judge if a cat should go to the darkforest whether or not they have redeemed themselves or if they have unfinished buisness. Ashfur did what he 'needed' to do and didn't have enough resentment left in his heart to go to the darkforest.
Spoilers:
The darkforest literally wages war on the living and Starclan, I don't see Ashfur being apart of this.
ClearSky shouldve been the first cat in the dark forest. He only got into StarClan bc hes a founder
Fr
EXACTLY!
I want Darktail to have trained in the dark forest. How else did he get so good at fighting? Smoke was a kittypet, not a Clan cat and she couldn't hunt, let alone fight. The only remarkable fighting skills we see are those of dark forest warriors and Lionblaze (he has superpowers, he doesn't count). *Darktail trained in hell confirmed.*
Note: Darktail was once a warrior of Skyclan!
2:25 as soon as you said the name "Hawkheart" my brain immediately went "YES FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME AND EVEN TALKS ABOUT THE HAWKHEART THING"
And honestly all the MV characters
Ashfur - I agree! He has done more than Hawkfrost has. He tried to murder four cats, successfully killed one of them, and all for a stupid reason; his girlfriend broke up with him.
Hawkheart - Oh my gosh, I need that to happen. I would so read.
Raggedstar - Totally. He’s a horrible cat, and doesn’t deserve StarClan. He was honestly a pretty abusive cat.
Rainflower - Yeah... she’s kinda the reason that he started training in the Dark Forest anyway.
Dusk/Darkstar - Yeah... he was an idiot. And a horrible leader. And it made no sense that his code was even added.
Appledusk - Honestly, Mapleshade should’ve gone to StarClan and he should’ve gone to the Dark Forest. Mapleshade rid us of such an evil cat, who WRONGED her. Badly.
Darkstar - She... she was horrible. And her name kinda suggests that. AND LIKE WHAT? WHAT???? And I agree; why did everyone except for Mapleshade and her poor babies suck in that novella?
Onestar - EXACTLY! And *spoilers for Crowfeather’s Trial* he was talking about all of his clanmates being disloyal, when he mates with another cat. And then abandons her and their babies.
Darktail - He’s so evil. I hate him for it, but you gotta love how good at being bad he is.
Oakstar - Every single time he was in the books, he did something wrong.
MineSpawn- The thing about maple shade was that she was happy to be in the dark forest
"Mapleshade should have gone to starclan" No. She's a murdurer. She deserves the dark forest. All Appledusk did is cheat on Maple. He also redeemed himself by sacrificing himself for a *PREGNANT* Reedshine and refusing to fight Mapleshade.
@@iexistd1661 FINALLY, SOMEONE SAYS IT!
And not only that, but comparing her situation to Bluestar's and Leafpool's, the latter two ACKNOWLEDGED their situation and TRIED to make up for it. Meanwhile, Mapleshade thought she would get away with her actions, scott-free even.
MineSpawn I never knew there had actually been an leader named Oakstar and I have an oc that’s name is Oakstar that’s the leader of Thunderclan, his mate Coldfeather (both male cats), and he is honestly a good leader
Darkstar was actually not that bad. She was not aggressive to Mapleshade past regularly expected interclan hostility. This vid was not true as Darkstar allowed the kits to be buried with the Riverclan dead, they were not buried unfairly. And letting Mapleshade join Riverclan was not her obligation, and would've been a bad choice since it would have stirred up trouble in multiple ways (tension within the clan, Thunderclan would be angry, they'd have to spend time training her etc). What Darkstar did seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Also, someone who cheated but then sacrificed himself to save his pregnant mate doesn't deserve Starclan, but someone who murdered three cats and blames everyone around her but herself does? I don't see it lol
This was really informative, thank you! I’d love to see your top 10 lgbt+ headcanons!
I don’t agree with you about Appledusk going to the dark forest because the reasoning behind it doesn’t make any actual sense.
*Appledusk leaving her is completely valid.*
Quote to show it's the kits that were the reason for Appledusk leaving Mapleshade and something like that isn't as selfish as people make it out to be. Also why it's reasonable to blame Mapleshade for the kits' deaths:
But night is falling!” Mapleshade protested. “Where will I go? Appledusk, help me!” The pale brown warrior shook his head. “Why should I? It’s your fault that these kits are dead. I never want to see you again.” - Chapter 4, When Mapleshade is sent away from Riverclan camp.
Appledusk is disowning her because in his eyes, she caused their deaths, showing he genuinely cared about the kits. Not only did the Kits die, but Mapleshade almost got herself killed and risked the lives of a Riverclan patrol to save them, including Appledusk himself.
I wouldn't blame anyone for doing that honestly. If the kits' deaths can justify Mapleshade's murders for some fans, but can't it for Appledusk's much less extreme act of rejecting his forbidden mate? Then that logic in itself is stupid.
He's also not completely wrong for blaming the mate who gets all their kits killed through their recklessness. Yes, Mapleshade was in exile, however, she was still the one who made her kits swim in a clearly dangerous flood. The kits were already tired and hungry.
And earlier that day, when Mapleshade allowed them to swim in the river during calm conditions, Patchkit still struggled and needed Appledusk to help him. If her kits struggled to swim in calm water, this should be a clear indicator they can’t swim in a flood and storm.
Petalkit even shouts, “There’s too much water!” during the Flood scene in Chapter 4. If a kit can see the danger, Mapleshade has no excuse. She'd JUST left camp and weren't being actively chased, they weren't in such a rush they needed to cross a flood. This is the same reason why I blame Bluesfur for Mosskit’s death. Like Mapleshade, she unnecessarily dragged her kits through a clear danger when she had other obvious options to her, like simply warning Sunstar.
*Appledusk choosing his clan over Mapleshade is justified*
He was doing the technical right thing by choosing loyalty to his Clan instead of one forbidden mate, like it says in the Code. Choosing the one reckless mate who just got his kits killed, over his entire Clan, is a lot more selfish as he'd be abandoning a lot more: All his clanmates, vulnerable members who need protection, any kin he has, his apprentice, new mate and unborn kits.
Appledusk was being asked to choose between one cat and an entire Clan, including his other kin. The choice is obvious if you ask me.
And what Appledusk does is a lot better than what other forbidden mates do like Greystripe, who abandoned both his kin and Clans. First, abandoned Thunderclan to raise his kits in Riverclan. However, didn't dedicate himself to the Clan that showed him unneeded hospitality by leaking information on the Sunningrocks attack and refusing to fight on their side.
Knowingly getting himself exiled while his kits were still in the Nursery, the whole reason he left in the first place. In the end, he just ended up betraying two separate Clans and abandoned his kits.
Fans also have double standards when it comes to a similar situation: Pinestar gets criticized for abandoning his whole Clan, including his young mate and kits.
However, when Appledusk chooses to stay loyal to his Clan with his new mate and unborn kits, fans scrutinise him for not staying with and going into exile with a single forbidden mate over his entire Clan. Despite after everything Mapleshade had just done, that would of been a seriously unhealthy relationship for the both of them - forced into exile with either the cat they blamed for their kits' deaths or stay with a mate who’s willing to forgive you after what you’ve done.
*Appledusk blaming her is valid*
Appledusk's accusation is built on valid reasoning but Mapleshade's is complete nonsense and ignores key facts, so she doesn't have to take any responsibility for her actions, just blaming it all on others. Many quotes from Appledusk prove how much he cared about his kits. If he never wanted kits and wanted to hide his crimes, he wouldn't of saved Mapleshade as she could of exposed all his crimes as well. But he didn't and he willingly confessed all his crimes himself.
Mapleshade also completely ignores the fact, that she was the one who put the kits in danger in the first place. The kits were in the flood for a good amount of time before the patrol even had the chance to arrive. Mapleshade also wasted Appledusk's short time to save their kits, by forcing him to save her first. And by the time he set off to find their kits, it was already too late, as the kits' bodies had washed up on shore.
And for Mapleshade to have the expectation Appledusk could of somehow saved all the kits by himself, is just unrealistic and unfair. Especially when Mapleshade herself couldn't save the kits. Yes, she's not a Riverclan cat but she had more time than anyone and actually had one kit in her mouth at one point but lost her grip on them. So if she couldn't save a single kit, she shouldn't expect others to.
And even if he blamed Mapleshade for their deaths, he still does care about her. After he found her trespassing, falsely accuses him of killing their kits, threatening him and kidnapping his apprentice, he has every right to attack her. Yet he still gives the chance for her to leave peacefully:
You killed our kits, making them cross The river. Let Perchpaw go and get out of here before I call for a patrol.”
*In his Defense*
(This one requires more context)
Mapleshade waited for Appledusk to send the other warriors on ahead, to find some excuse to be alone with her so they could mourn their kits together before facing the rest of his Clan. But he didn’t turn back to look at her. He hasn’t even asked what I named them.' Chapter 4 -
Directly after the kits' deaths. The reason he doesn't stop to talk to her privately is that he blames her for their kits' deaths and doesn't want to see her again. Why would someone want to have private time with the person they blame for their all children's deaths? Which it actually is her fault.
Oakheart technically did the exact same thing to Mosskit. When Bluefur told him one was dead, he didn't even ask for her name either. But it's never brought up in the fandom, because the narrative doesn't draw attention because they want Oakheart to be seen as a positive character, despite doing the exact same thing as Appledusk.
Appledusk wouldn't have any ill-tent towards his kits, specially after their deaths. As it would be out of character for him. Since we don't his PoV, his exact motives will never be known, but I'll still attempt to speculate.
1) He thought it was inappropriate to learn his children's names, from the person he blames for their deaths. He can learn from other cats, it didn't specially have to be Mapleshade.
2) He already knew their names without Mapleshade being aware. There were 2 moons between the kit's birth and deaths - So a lot of time for Appledusk to learn their names. Prime chances he had: Thunderclan speaking about them at the Gatherings or when Mapleshade ran into Appledusk when she took the kits to play in the river, in which she called them by name serval times.
*Appledusk cared about his kits*
He clearly cared about his kits and was upset when they died. Even in death he still loved them with all his heart and there’s clear evidence of this in chapter 5.
Appledusk set down Petalkit’s body as gently as if she were sleeping." - Chapter 5, even when his kit is dead, Appledusk makes sure to be careful with their body.
*What Appledusk did took courage*
It's shouldn't be underestimated how much courage it takes to do what Appledusk did - Admitting absolutely everything to his Clan, accepting responsibility and begging for forgiveness. Appledusk could of taken the easy way out and purposefully blame Mapleshade or kits, maybe even insult them. But he doesn't, he takes the harder way out. Unlike Mapleshade, who refused to admit any of her crimes or even apologize. Actually threatening Thunderclan after her sentencing:
You were my mentor, Bloomheart! You know I would never betray my Clan!” [...] “You have betrayed me and my kits. You will live to regret this day forever, ThunderClan, and that is a promise.”
He was on very thin ice himself, and many cats needed him in Riverclan, including an apprentice and unborn kits. So he couldn't afford the risk of getting himself exiled in order to push his Leader's fragile mercy and stand up for his Forbidden mate.
That would just demonstrate to Darkstar he's more loyal to Mapleshade then his Clan. And why would he want Mapleshade in his home and risk exile for her?:
When she'd failed their shared responsibility to help protect the secret and kits, by bringing them down to the Riverclan border and letting them show off their Riverclan traits.
And she recklessly crossed the flood: causing all their kits to die, almost got herself killed and forced Appledusk to risk his own life, along with two of his Clanmates.
I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to see someone like that again. Appledusk had a right to shut Mapleshade out of his life after doing something like that. Mates have broken up for far more minor reasons like as simple as not feeling like it's working out. Appledusk has one of the strongest reasons in the whole series to reject his mate, alongside Tigerclaw lying to Goldenflower about his murders.
And as for his punishment you people saying he deserved worse is incorrect as he hasn’t committed any crimes worthy of deserving worst than what he received.
Punishing Appledusk would of just been unnecessary, when he'd already had been punished enough. In the form of losing an entire litter. Just like when Silverstream's death was considered punishment enough for Graystripe, just that for Apledusk, it was tripled with 3 deaths. He had also had his reputation ruined and mistrusted by all his clanmates, including being labelled a traitor.
Mapleshade deserved exactly what she got. Because even before her kits demise she was a horrid person and mother. While I will defend her here, she shouldn’t have been exiled.
Every Warrior counts. If Appledusk left, a Clanmate could die because he wasn't there to save them or starve because he wasn't there to catch those extra pieces of fresh-kill.
Especially when it's was such a harsh season during Appledusk's sentencing. Darkstar even mentioning this: "This is not the season for losing warriors. Appledusk." - Chapter 4.
Thunderclan was foolish to throw away a decent warrior and whole litter of innocent kits on ulimately more minor crime, while their anger and rage was justifiable I can’t say the same for the decision they made at that time,however, Riverclan is more merciful and doesn't make the same mistake. So Riverclan can't afford to be wasteful and needlessly exile warriors, when they are regretful and want to redeem themselves.
Either Appledusk chooses to leave or Darkstar exiles him, nothing useful comes out of him being a rogue. It's clear he didn't want to be with Mapleshade after she made their kits swim in a flood, so he'd just be looking after himself and escaping his Warrior duties.
His Riverclan kits would be needlessly devoid of a father, potentially affecting their ability as future warriors. Unlike his Thunderclan kits, which was a requirement for him to stay separate from for their own protection.
If anything Mapleshade deserved even harsher punishment for the crimes she’s committed
Mapleshade also does at least deserve a harsher punishment then Appledusk, as she's committed worse crimes. Appledusk was only in a forbidden romance with a regular Thunderclan cat, not telling them the existence of his Thunderclan family but showed some loyalty to Riverclan by taking on another legal mate.
He acknowledged his crimes, confessed everything and begged for forgiveness. However, Mapleshade was mates with the Riverclan cat who "killed" two of her Clanmates, yet continued to love and see him even afterwards.
She cruelly used one of the victims' names and his grieving family, including her best friend, pretending to be his mate and mother of his kits. And when she was exposed, she refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing and threatened Thunderclan after her sentence.
And you saying that he felt no remorse for killing Birchface and flowerpaw is also entirely false because it’s shown in one of the chapters that he regrets what he did. And he never called flowerpaw stupid either. He isn’t the bloodthirsty cat everyone makes him out to be. She felt Appledusk stiffen beneath his pelt. “It was an accident,” he growled. “I never meant for him to fall into the river.” Mapleshade closed her eyes. “That’s not the way my Clanmates see it. They blame you for both of our losses.” [...] “Then they are fools.” Appledusk shuddered, then relaxed." - Chapter 1.
It uses language like shuddered and stiffened, Appledusk is having a physical reaction to when he's reminded of the accidental death he caused, clearly showing he's uncomfortable about it and yes, regretful.
Accidental deaths happen all the time in battle, like with Whitethroat, Whiteclaw or Russetfur. And it's not the complete fault of the accidental killer either - Like the others examples, Appledusk and Birchface weren't in that situation willingly, they were following orders and trying to defend/claim territory for their Clans.
Appledusk, a light brown RiverClan warrior with piercing green eyes, striking Birchface so hard that the ThunderClan cat lost his footing and slipped from the very top of Sunningrocks.” - Birchface and Appledusk were fighting in a high and dangerous area. Neither of them should of been fighting there and both were acting in self-defence. Also, it was Birchface himself who lost footing and tripped.
And as for his cheating.
Getting more onto Appledusk's accusation of cheating - Having multiple mates is the norm in Warriors. Queens are even respected if they don't wish to name the father of their kits - With no regard for the father himself.
There are so many examples of multiple mates, many close to each other as well: Whitestorm, Brindleface, Goldenflower, Patchpelt, Dovewing, Crowfeather, Greystripe, Robinwing, etc. And from this list, many of those cats ain't considered "cheaters" and even seen as "Noble". And there's no reason they shouldn't be, they're only doing the norm of their society.
The Horse Place cats do the same. Smokey was having litters with both Daisy and Floss, neither jealous of each other.
Also, as soon as Dasiy entered Thunderclan and while Smokey's kits were newborns, she was already flirting with Cloudtail. Then when Hazeltail told her father about Spiderleg's litter, Smokey hardly reacted to his old mate finding a new lover.
Yes I am defending his cheating as they are cats and wouldn’t even know what that is in the first place and as examples of cats not reacting to Ravenpaw and Barely being in a relationship because they don’t understand the concepts of being Gay,Bisexual,Lesbian or any other sexuality therefore they wouldn’t understand what cheating is. And as in the evidence I provided it’s normal for the cats of the clans to sometimes have multiple mates weither their first mate knows about it or not. And most wouldn’t even be bothered by it unless you’re overly possessive like Nightcloud or Mapleshade.
But of course I don’t condemn cheating on your partner in real life because that’s just scummy. But I’m defending it here because
1. It’s fiction
2. Theyre cats and don’t understand the concepts of cheating nor sexualities.
3. A lot of the cats don’t give a fuck if their mate has a “sidepiece” (Unless your Nightcloud or Mapleshade)
And there’s are a few reason as to why is cheating is morally good.
All Forbidden Mates have done the same as Appledusk.
Apart from Featherstorm and Fallowtail, all Forbidden mate have taken on cats from their own Clan as “Mates” to some extent or tricked them into adopting their kits: Mapleshade and Birchface Yellowfang and Lizardstripe, Raggedstar and Foxheart, Bluestar and Thrushpelt, Oakheart and Greypool, Leafpool and Brambleclaw, Crowfeather and Nightcloud, Dovewing and Bumblestripe, etc.
Like when Dovewing, she’s seeing both Tigerheart and Bumblestripe around the same time, without the other being aware. And even admits she’s only trying out Bumblestripe because he’s Thunderclan.
Or, when Bluefur allowed Thrushpelt to pose as her mate and father of her kits, when she was fully aware he was actually in love with her. That’s extremely close to becoming Thrushpelt’s actual mate when Oakheart was still alive and unaware. So was Bluefur “Cheating”?
Even Mapleshade herself pretended to be the mate of the DECEASED Birchface and sister/daughter-law to his grieving family.
She had 4 moons to correct this and has the Queen's right to keep the father nameless, yet didn't. Appledusk's accidental murder victim.
Appledusk is no worse then Crowfeather, if not better. Which he is. He’s way better than crow feather could ever be. The earlier quotes prove Appledusk generally loves both his mates and all his kits, even if at the same time. Crowfeather didn't generally love either his mate or son and mistreated both of them. He also wasn’t aware of his Thunderclan kits, so when he took on Nightcloud, he was only doing it to protect himself. It's actually confirmed in The Ultimate Guide, Breezepelt was born before the Three.
And when he exposed as the father of a Thunderclan litter, he denied it even though he knew he was guilty. And instantly disowned his Thunderclan litter just to protect himself.
Meanwhile, Appledusk didn't disown Mapleshade as soon as he out found she was pregnant. He also never disowned his kits. He only did it to Mapleshade later on, for the far better reason of her causing all their kits' deaths by making them swim through a flood.
And him being aware of 1st litter and taking on a Riverclan mate, was actually helping to protect his Thunderclan family. If Appledusk deserves the Dark Forest, so does Crowfeather.
Wow. An essay.
I'm sorry, I don't really feel up to making a full reply to everything. But I don't think you really understood what I was trying to say, but I think that's on me. It boils down to this. I think that at the time mapleshade decided to cross the river, she had limited options, all of them unsafe. Some moreso than others. The river was not the safest, but it provided the best chance of safety on the other side. She rolled the dice and lost, but when she made the decision it was because she believed it to be the right one at the time. She tried her best and she lost everything.
Mapleshade deserves the dark forest because she became an indiscriminate murderer, but I do not believe and never will believe that she deserved the level of punishment and suffering she received in response to her actions. The punishment does not fit the crime. And I don't think blaming her for her children's deaths is right or fair. And at the end of the day, you just don't have to agree with me. We can both interpret and analyze the text differently, and that's fine.
@@Draikinator She had more options and the savest was twoleg place. She could also have gone over the bridge or to four trees and then to river clan
I agree with every cat that you say! And I mostly agree with you saying...... BRING BACK DARKTAIL!!! PLEASE ERINS!!
(You have a new subscriber!)
Jynee Alanis Darktail was an actually smart villain, not a dumb one
I agree, Darktail is my personal favorite villain and I desperately hope he comes back sometime.
I don't think most of these cat deserves it though
Except Appledusk, Oakstar and Darkstar
I love Mapleshade, ok?
I agree with everyone on this list including Appledusk because he almost seemed to set up Mapleshade for banishment from the forest AND his own kit's death. also, it's so satisfying for me to think about Appledusk biting the dust in Mapleshade's claws.
You realize Onestar drowned Darktail at the same time Darktail drowned Onestar, right?
FINALLY someone who acknowledges the shit raggedstar did
i've only ever seen people make him out as victim, because yellowfang apparently was a horrible person for making desicsions of her own? i swear no one ever talks about how abusive he was towards yellowfang and it sickens me
one cat i would have loved to see on the list and see you talk about though is lizardstripe, since she in my opinion put more hatred and anger in brokenstar then anyone did. she encouraged her own kits to bully him, put the blame on him when he did get bullied and literally tried to starve her. how could she ever had ended up in starclan? if i remember right she even said once about not even wanting her own kits
Oooomggg thanks! Rainflower is need be Dark forest cat!
If you ask me, Rainflowers negletions did more trouble that Crookedstars jaw
Also, sorry but Onestar drowned, not burnt
I saw this post one time, and it perfectly sums up CrookedStar and RainFlower's relationship:
RF: Why dont you love me? I gave you life!
CS: You gave me anxiety.
Ok ik this is old but I love how you call Mapleshade woman it makes me laugh so much lmao
Yeah
I hate clearsky
He’s my least favorite cat ever
Mewmacree he’s not my least favourite cat but clear sky was getting on my nerves for AGGESS in Dotc UGHHH gray wing is favourite character and bc clear sky was mean I hate him that’s how it works
*that moment you start waiting patiently for crowfeather to end up in the dark forest soon*
darkstar AU where she's not a psychopath and banishes Appledusk, adding Mapleshade to the nursery to nurse Riverclan kits until her milk dries up.