_Really_ cool project. This is definitely something I've thought about doing for a long time, but funny enough every time you see people try to get PCI Express working in 98, it's usually with an NVIDIA card. So it's very nice to see this being done with some Radeon GPUs, and you couldn't ask for better results.
I like using Radeon cards with Windows 98 :) When capturing from DVI for example, DOS output is sharper compared to Nvidia. And the drivers have all the settings, like AA, AF and V-Sync without having to install coolbits registry tweak and things like that. As for game compatibility, it's hard to say, I actually don't test that many games, and have little time to play, so some games might work better on either of them...
From a software point of view PCIe is backward compatible with PCI. Therefore it should work. Of course there can still be issues with drivers support for the device itself, but older operating systems should simply see a PCIe device as if it's simply a regular PCI device. There are even cheap adapters that you can find on places like Ebay and alibaba that will adapt PCi cards to PCIe slots and vise versa. The adapters require no software as they are simply a hardware bridge.
Hey Pixel, love your vids, hey you are good with old stuff being used in new stuff maybe, any chance you could weigh in on something for me quick? I collect GPU's and love switching them in my system and benchmarking them. I have Win 10 and can drop anything in from my DX10 HD 2900xt up to my current 7900 XTX. But if I put in my X850 XT or X1900XT DX9 cards, I can't get a signal, not even the bios. Are some motherboards just not compatible with DX9 cards? I would think it is windows not liking the card, but like I said, no video out at all even for POST screen.
@@QuisquamHam It could be compatibility, but I've also had ATI cards not initialize their monitor outputs because they don't recognize the screen attached.
asus a7n266 vm/aa Amd athalon 2000 512mb ram 2g/16g CF hds 128mb agp geforce4 Soundblaster audiliogy2 The MB is awesome to start a build has geforce2 32mb and sound built in
E8600 was such a beast of a chip. Even in a locked down Inspiron 530s, it, with 8GB RAM and a GT 1030, kept me going until last year for home theater and retro gaming/emulation use, on Ubuntu with Wine/Proton. It's now a file/Plex/Jellyfin/pihole server, after I sold off the 1030. Wolfdale really feels like the Sandy Bridge of Core 2, being relevant far longer than most would've ever guessed.
My first computer I ever built had an E8400 in it. I ran it for a few years until I jumped over to a phenom ii x6 1100t due to wanting more cores and threads. The E8400 was definitely a beast cpu and I used it as a secondary pc until about 2018 when it died after my nephew's house got hit by lightning in a thunderstorm.
Amazing video, I have a Windows 98 and Windows XP dual boot retro gaming PC and I love it. It's a Pentium 4 at 3ghz with an ATI Radeon X800 XT PE AGP (I couldn't find the X850 XT when I built the PC), and the performance in Windows 98 is outstanding. I also achieved to use 2GB of RAM with the patch you mentioned; I bought it from Rudolph directly, and I had no idea that he passed away, what a loss :__( Keep up the good work Phil!
Just finished my "supreme" 775/AGP build with a C2X X6800 and a (silent) FX 5950 Ultra -- Got 25000 points in 3D Mark 2001 SE -- Was very proud -- Until I saw this video -- Thanks Phil ;)
I've got an old Sapphire Radeon HD 38070 its very cool. The ASUS GeForce GTX 550 Ti that i replace it with back in teh day is still a very sleek card but it just misses the personality that the old card artwork brought imo.
I remember my first duel boot with 98SE and Win2k Pro. Kids these days don't know the struggle we had back then. Great Video! I'm 3D FX, Voodoo Banshee......TnT2 Riva old!!!
Cool! I have a couple of early LGA775 boards that won't support Core 2 Duo processors, thus making them unsuitable to build low end Windows 10 machines. This information makes them good candidates to make Windows 98 systems instead of the LGA478 boards I have been using. Thanks as always for your great videos!
Funny thing about the ATI X800 series of cards. They were designed to run with a PCIe bus. Even the AGP model. If you look just above the AGP port on the card you will see the chip that converts PCIe to AGP. I believe that ATI called it PCIe to AGP bridge
For those that want to mess with AGP and PCIE on 775 a good choice would be the 4CoreDual-VSTA board by Asrock as it supported both DDR1 and 2 as well as AGP and PCIE, it was what we used at the shop to test parts during the changeover from AGP to PCIE. It supported from P4 all the way to C2Q so we could test a ton of gear on it and while IIRC out of the box it didn't have Win98 drivers it used a bog standard Via chipset so standard Via Win98 drivers worked. It was a great test bed platform and looking on eBay they sell for around $60 USD with a CPU so not bad for an LGA 775 that can run anything.
Thanks for the video Phil! Been scratching my head around a K8M890, AM2 board and a Quadro FX 1400 and I thought I was the only one getting issues with Device Manager for the Quadro to work...!
I really enjoy these sorts of videos you do, finding other options for retro hardware. And thank you for sharing the link for the RAM patch, it's going to be very useful
@@philscomputerlab two tips for the high-end geforce videos: loew created a bios patch for geforce 6 & 7 cards with 512mb vram, so you can use a unpatched driver. also for 256mb geforce 7 cards (like 7800gs) you can actually use the last official driver (81.98) without any modification. just force the install, it works. did it myself. at least for cards with the g70 chip. not 100% sure with g71 chips. maybe even the bios patched 512mb cards could work with that driver version. i still paid for the patch ;) r.i.p. r. loew...
Some time ago I buid a "modern" W98 using a motherboard with Intel 945 chipset and modded drivers and an nVidia 7600 GT and more modded drivers, surprisigly once everybody was installed it runs flawlessly and of course very fast for a W98 machine. It was an experiment more than anything else and I ended up selling all the parts once I have the system up and running.
Going through this right now - any chance you still have a link to those 945 modded drivers that work on Windows98? Searching high and low - can't find any.
Nice video, thank you very much for making it. Windows 98 doesn't care whether video card is PCIe or AGP. If chipset drivers are available it will work. Most PCIe boards do not have working chipset drivers. Drivers install, but system is unstable. From my experience anything above Intel 8xx series chipset will be a lot of headache. I'm surprised you got a stable system with G31.
I do have a P4 w/ HT machine that just barely works. HDD is dying. And the mainboard doesn't have batteries. And it runs WinXP I manage to boot it up and all for the first 2-3 days. But I never had a chance to troubleshoot my 9600XT, nor my Geforce 4 mx400. They might be dead. But I have hardware that have managed to boot, now that we have confirmed that SSD works on Win98, I'm gonna test it when time is conveniet.
I tried posting the link to the modified drivers twice now. But just google this, and you will find them: "Geforce 6/7 and 8 AGP/PCI-E Driver Edition for Win98/ME by Zak!"
Just wanted to thank you for this video. I was able to test a similar setup recently: ASUS P5KPL-AM EPU / Core2 e8400 / Hynix DDR2 5300u @ 667 / Radeon x800 XT My average 3D Mark 2001 score was 34280, but I had several system and PCI devices that are not supported or do not have drivers. So I tried something else... With these parts, I was able to get 3D Mark 2001 scores in the 23500 range on an ASRock ALIVESATA2-GLAN and Athlon 64 4000+ with 1mb cache overclocked from 2.6 GHz to 2.88 GHz. The AM2 board used a VIA chipset with working drivers for everything except an ACPI motherboard resource. Also got in the 22500 range on a Fujitsu-Siemens D2030-A Socket 939 board with an Athlon 64 3700+, SiS chipsets, fully supported with all drivers. Fun projects, all PCI Express, all working with the caveats mentioned for the AM2 and 775 boards.
Love the vid, Phil. I had pretty good success using the ATI X850 XT PE vid card, ASUS P5KPL-AM SE motherboard and the other hardware listed (other than using an Audigy 2 ZS instead of a Live! which I also have but prefer the Audigy better). This is maybe the 15th Win98 system I've built over the years. However it's been tricky getting it to boot consistently when using over 512 MB of RAM even with Rudolph Loew's patchmem installed. With 1 GB or 2 GB installed sometimes it boots, but usually it just starts to load Windows and the reboots before the login. With a single 512 MB stick of RAM it's super rock-solid and is most stable Win98 system I've had in 20+ years. I ordered some different RAM so I'll have to see how that works out.
Hi! I have a question regarding Audigy 2 ZS and SB Live. I guess both of them don't have official Win98 drivers? Could use some help on how to install drivers for these so that they work properly with Win98
I'm glad that networking will have more focus in the next videos because I've always wanted a networking solution to transfer files between my retro and modern PCs and I've not been completely successful in implementing such a solution yet. I have to keep the USB controller disabled due to resource conflicts with my sound card so file transfer using a flash drive can be a pain sometimes. Very nice video.
I agree. Would be great to have a "part 2" video with in depth game benchmarks on resolutions, frame rates, and game compatibility. I know it takes alot of time to set this all up and edit them though.
Great job! I just installed Win98 on my 775Dual-VSTA yesterday. I'm going to attempt PICe on 98/XP like you did. AGP with a voodoo2 for 98/DOS....it'll be interesting!
If you're using Nvidia cards under w98 there are modified drivers (82.69) that support 7000 and 8000 series. I previously had my 8800GTS 640MB working under 98se but I think I had KernelEx installed too so that may have helped.
Really enjoyed the video. Thanks for these. I would definitely be interested in the networking videos for DOS up through Win98. I would also be interested to see the video on the alternative sound card driver installation.
I had a Nvidia 6600 GT PCI-E running on a dual core motherboard about 10 years ago. Performance was fantastic but i could no longer use DOS. PCI-E cards from Nvidia break DOS in Windows 98. I never tried any ATI PCI-E cards so i can't comment on those. Great video.
there are some early LGA775 chipsets like the VIA P4M900 which have native windows 98 drivers and have working PCIe that'll work well with a build with those ati graphics card. the (ASUS P5VD2-VM SE) LGA775 motherboard is one with windows 98 drivers.
Another cool thing with VIA chipsets is that you can have Sound Blaster compatibility under MS-DOS without any TSR's using sound cards based on the ESS Solo-1 and Avance Logic ALS4000. Unfortunately the Solo-1 refuses to use the VxD drivers on my VIA PCIe motherboard so I'm stuck with the WMD drivers.
I dig how you're always exploring new ways to dive into 98SE, often making it more accessible and affordable in the process. I also saw Joseph's thread about installing Live cards with Audigy drivers, and a video on that would be cool. And I'd be keen on more networking stuff too. I'm already using FTP on my DOS and W98 machines, which has been game changing. Next item on my wishlist is to set up shares from a NAS that can be mounted on my retro machines. Currently tinkering with EtherDFS for mounting network drives under DOS.
Nice! Yea FTP works out of the box is very handy. I also had WebDAV working, but connecting directly to Windows share is still the most convenient method IMO. But in time, legacy features will get removed, and sooner or later we won't be able to network like that... I have to look up EtherDFS, sounds interesting! I use mTCP currently, I can GET individual files, but the MGET command doesn't work, throws an error about filename issues... I'm working with the author of mTCP, hopefully we can resolve this. You can run a FTP server on DOS and use a client from a Windows machine, but I find it neater to just have the NAS running and not involve another computer.
@@philscomputerlab Yep, currently using mTCP's FTP server and managing files with Filezilla on my main PC. (On the W98 machines I'm using WarFTP for the server). At first I thought that's all I would need, but I soon decided a NAS would be a good idea too.
@@Grus0 I think you will enjoy having a NAS! I don't want to sound like a sales person, but it has made my digital life so much easier, everything is in one place and all machines can access it. The NAS has features way past what I use, you can connect a monitor, keyboard, mouse and use it basically as a PC! Install a VM, Windows 10, I even had Crysis running on it!
To avoid the resource conflict with the video card, i usually just disable the integrated graphics outright. then the video card works without any issues after installing the ati catalyst drivers so you don't need to disable anything in device manager. Although I'm not sure how it is with nvidia's side.
@@fabioefs2006 Itried successfully a Radeon X800 GTO first, it words perfect. I also tried a Geforce 6800GS and it also works, but there are some issues in some Games due to the bad driver support. I used "NV8269.EXE". But the 6800 GS might be the better card to emulate 3Dfx Games with nGlide.
Good video! I've had some success doing the Win98/XP dual boot systems, and your parts used here are a pretty close match. The South Bridge being an early ICH5 is generally the only one to support both 98 and XP, with the earlier North Bridges like i865G also working well. Congrats on the PCIE success! I've never been able to make that work.
Man, I've been hearing about this (pcie gpus supposedly working in Win 98 under some circumstances) for some years now, but this is the first time we actually have a concise video on the topic! What's left now is to try to topple the previously considered to be fastest card in Win 98 (the 7950gt agp with modified drivers from the 6000 series) with its bigger brother - the 7900gtx (that obviously only comes in pcie variant) while at the same time maybe also OC the E8600 (a famously good chip in that regard, known to hit 5.0 Ghz in some cases) sky high. That might be just enough to push some of the games over 1000 fps, lol.
Win 9x can work on ich9, 10 and 11 based boards. This also includes some Core i - 8xx and 9xx systems (ie. core 2 e8x00 isnt the fastest supported cpu for Win9x).
I love your video's.I am busy with a old amd 939 that i will use as a retro pc.Did a mobo upgrade 2 weeks ago.Just been busy with rl before i set her up.Nothing was wrong with the old mobo just the new one has better oc capability.I fitted a custom air cooler and gonna try breach 1000mhz oc on air.People ask what am i to gain for fixing an old pc and my answer is simple.Knowledge.Doesn't matter how much you learn there's always way to improve.
This is amazing! I didn't know this was possible, and now it opens up so many doors! :) Obviously you need to dig into Nvidia cards next. If you can get that working, that'd be huge. The NAS video you hinted about, that sounds great too. I suck at networking stuff, so any guides are welcome, hehe. What a way to open up a new year eh. Cheers Phil, you rock.
interesting to see how these last gpu cards for win 98se work and learning what are the drawbacks to using them. I'm very curious to see a comparison on how the late nvidia cards (geforce fx 5900/5950 and geforce 6800) also work with 98se, how the 8 bit palletized texture/table fog are affected and also how is the 98se compatibility are affected with later and earlier games using these cards. I did find recently that Nvidia had a table fog emulation available but not sure which software or os. I copied this instruction to find table fog emulation from a battlefront forum circa 2002 posted by user "Schrullenhaft": Start Menu > Settings > Control Panel > Display control panel > Settings tab > Advanced... button > at this point it may vary, NVidia will have a tab with the name of the video card and others may list their advanced configuration tabs here (Direct3D or DirectX tabs for some brands) > Additional Properties button (NVidia) > Direct3D Settings tab (NVidia) > Enable Fog-table Emulation check box (NVidia)
He passed?.... :( :( :( What a great fellow for making this patch and props to his family for making it free for everyone to use even after he passed, I think he would have appreciated that from the after life...
I have actually got nglide working perfectly via DirectX 9 using an ati radeon x700 pro pcie on a asus p5kpl-am epu mainboard with fully working 32 bit hardrive access with sata. Games like motorcross racer and unreal look freakin awesome on high redolutions.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how you manage to network everything. I have a fileserver that I will be running Unraid on and this would be so useful for my retro builds.
Recently someone gave me a Foxconn k8m890m2ma-rs2h motherboard with a Sempron 3600+ and a PCIe X300. Just out of curiosity I installed Windows 98 and I was pleasantly surprised. I haven't tested it much, but I've played NFS Porsche Unleashed and it was very quick. VIA drivers installed with no errors, but I do get some unknown devices in device manager, and I had to use a PCI soundcard, as the onboard was not detected.
10:30 - Just a bit of curiosity: have you noticed that the X800 GT and X850 XT cards have the same PCB? In the video you can see that they have the exact same component layout, but the X800 GT is missing the external power socket on the back and has a smaller cooler, but you can see the outline and mounting holes for the larger cooler of the X850. In fact they have the same part number (109-A47401-10). I guess this is because they have the same GPU, the X800 GT just has a lower-binned version. I love old hardware...
I don't have an actual use for windows 98, as all the games I used to play back then usually work or have patches to work under XP, for dos games all work perfectly fine in dosbox, my retro xp machine has an HD 3650 agp version, performance is similar to this card and gives me that retro feeling I want from an old computer
The only real thing your missing is the music quality. I was shocked how much clearer and vibrant dos games sound using real soundblaster hardware. Dosbox is good enough 95% of the time but there are a few games that no matter how you adjust the timing it doesn't feel quite right.
Nice to see network being covered a bit more in the future! Small note though: whatever you do, do NOT mix old Windows machines with your 'daily use' home network. Plit them! Might be a nice topic for a future video as well, to discuss the various options. ie a separate vlan, or a separate switch/router.. You could do all kinds of fun things with it; ie use a simple router/wifi/switch box where you use the rj45 ports for your retro machines and the wifi radio for the internet uplink etc.. Fun :)
To be honest this stuff is above my skillset. The machines get an IP address from th Internet modem/router, including default gateway and Internet access. So the retro machines are indeed at risk...
@@philscomputerlab The NAS has two RJ-45 ports. Perhaps use one Ethernet port for the daily use network and another port for a separated 'retro' network. The NAS will then have two IP addresses completely separate from each other.
@@ASUSTOR_YT Thanks for the tip, that worked! I used an old modem/router and connected that to the second Ethernet port! I now have a separate Retro LAN, that's not connected to the Internet and let's all the older systems (DOS, 98, XP, Vista) talk to the NAS without catching bugs :D
Geforce 6 Series has official Win98 drivers and they work fine. For the 7 Series there is a workaround but i never tried that, would be interesting to see how they perform in Win98
@@LindenAshbyMK For the 7 series you just need to use the Tweaked Unofficial NVIDIA Display Driver 82.69. These are the only drivers that work for these cards under Windows 98.
Great and informative video Phil! I have a X700 PRO AGP Win98 build and performance is excellent compared to NVIDIA FX series, but I did have a few issues. I could not get 1080p working on ATI card and playing DOS games inside Win98 had some graphical issues (Duke3D especially, window displays garbled horizontal lines). I think I was using same drivers as you (cat 6.2)
My late 98/Early XP build uses an AGP x800 Pro Video card and a Socket A Athlon XP 3000+. It's pretty good, but I've been thinking of moving to Socket 939 for cooler CPU temps.
I eventually got an ATI All-in-Wonder X800XL PCIe working in Windows 98SE on an Intel 965 chipset based machine using Catalyst 6.2. The trick with that machine was the rloew RAM patch. Before that even with only 256MB installed in the machine I could never get the video driver working.
ASRock had very interesting boards back then. I had an socket 478 board with AGP and PCIe, the ASRock P4Dual 915GL. Where you could use both at the same time, crazy times.
Greetings Philscomputerlab! I have PCIe GeForce 7950 GT OC 512MB running Win98SE, Msdos 6.22, and WinME. The motherboard used is DDR2 ASRock 4CoreDUOSATA-2 VER 1.2. Motherboard comes with drivers for win98 to win7. Was using AGP 7900GS 512MB but 7950 is fastest. I have some problems with sata2 ports so I use ide to sata adapters for two 128GB sata SSD.
Sadly most hardware will be refused by Ultima7 without major hair pulling. I use U98 to help get around nasty DOS sound driver issues, and that stupid protected memory restriction. But this video was about 98(does frontend) on semi newer hardware.
@@TheTurnipKing Virtually impossible to find one for brand new cards, luckily it's still relatively easy and cheap to get a PCIe based GeForce 6 series or Radeon 9000/x*00 series PCIe variant which do have Win9x support. I also wonder how possible a community written driver could be for Win9x machines, basically using the open source Linux drivers to figure things out as that'd allow support under Win9x for up to nVidia's Kepler GPUs and basically all of AMD and Intels GPUs (Pretty sure there's also open source drivers for the less-prominent manufacturers including 3DFX, S3, etc) while also allowing the community to request driver-side features/fixes/optimisations. (eg. Making *any* GPU run the vendor-specific miniGL implementations to make say, running a Glide or MeTaL game on a modern Radeon or Intel GPU as simple as running it on a Voodoo)
@@TheDemocrab funny, I was just wondering the other day how damn nigh useless "display adaptors" like the gt710 would stack up against vintage but expensive 3D accelerators
@@TheTurnipKing That is actually a really interesting question that's gotten me thinking and going by the pixel/texture fillrates, I'd guess that a GT710 would be within the ballpark of a Radeon 9600Pro for its performance assuming both cards have optimised drivers. The GT710 would be faster for sure, but it's a question of how much in which games as the pixel fillrate is only a shade higher (1.6GPixels/S for the 9600Pro vs 1.62GPixels/S for the GT710) while the texture fillrate is a lot higher (Radeon 9600Pro is 1.6GP/s, the GT710 is 6.4GP/s) which means that the GT710 will perform better in games with lots of texturing, but most 9x games are pretty limited in that which means both cards should be pretty close. Obviously this is theoretical, fillrates don't necessarily tell the whole story. Maybe the GT710 is lacking support for some specific hardware feature that was common back in the 9x era and has to emulate it in software instead which would slow things down, or maybe there could be some interesting driver-side game optimisations that could be applied thanks to modern GPUs being far different to older GPUs in terms of design which could speed things up.
On the AGP system with more than one PCI slot you could test a Voodoo 2 in it as a secondary card for games that require 8 bit palletized textures, but I am uncertain if that would create more conflicts in Windows 98 SE or not. If you could get it to work that would make one hell of Windows 98 retro machine though.
Now that you mention nVidia cards, I tried my GF 6600LE pciE graphics on win98 cpu P4 HT 3.2 and motherboard Asus p5gdc Deluxe using UnOfficial drivers But I ran through a lot of problems regarding Fullscreen games :(
I am confused. At 12:21 you have the 3DMark 2001 score at 33k but on the very next slide you have it over 37k when comparing with the other graphics cards. I am getting about 34.5k on my PCIe x850XT under Win98 with 1Gb RAM and 3.0Ghz Xeon quad core. Strangly if I increase the RAM to 8gb, the performance goes down to 28.5k. Under XP the performance is not effected by the amount of RAM (I get just over 39k on XP). I am not sure why Win9x is slower with more RAM, but I am ok with it, as the peformance is still excellent. I intend to also boot this PC into Linux for web browsing etc.
Since now you have all this hardware, it would be nice to see another, more closely matched comparison with the same CPU in both motherboards, and limiting the X850 XT PE to the same clock speeds as the AGP version (with something like Ati Tray Tools). This way we could see the performance advantage (if any?) of the PCIe gen.1 interface over AGP.
Truthfully, there wouldn't be any difference if you were to use the same CPU on both platforms. The AGP 8X interface is more than capable of handling a Radeon X850 XT (in fact, it can even handle fine a much faster card, like the Radeon HD3850. Now, the caveat is that you can't use the E8600 CPU on the AGP system. In fact, the E8600 CPU is extremely overclockable, it can easily go to 4+ GHz, so that would make the PCI Express system even faster - although not sure why you'd want that when you already get 400+ FPS in most games :-) The main advantage of running Windows 98 on a PCI Express system is PRICE. The AGP + Socket 775 motherboards are getting more rare and expensive, same with the AGP versions of the X800/X850 cards. On the other hand, PCI Express motherboards and video cards are still cheap and easy to find.
I was playing around with a PCIe->PCI bridge on my windows 10 desktop and found out something cool. I was testing a PCI Audigy ZS2 with the bridge, and figured out I could disable it in device manager, and *hotplug* a PCI 10/100 NIC. I tested with other PCI devices, and all of them reported okay in windows, but the NIC and Audigy were the only two I was able to actually test (other cards I have are modems and FireWire cards). Interesting way to quickly test multiple PCI cards without rebooting. I wonder if it would work on this Win98 machine?? The bridge is from Startech
Fascinating video. It's really interesting to see what can be made to be compatible with Win98SE. I do have a question though and I think you'll be well placed to answer. In my head I remember it being more about a question of getting drivers to work and getting directX to work and once that happened games weren't really bothered if it was 98 or XP. But I'm a little cautious in assuming that's right because I clearly remember back in the day that if you asked anything about 98 people would just say "Go XP it's better you idiot", because back in the day there was always a relentless push forward to new tech and new games and old stuff was scorned. The reason behind my question is I'm trying to build a set of PCs (I'm up to 6 now) to cover games right from the start of IBM-PC to current day. I've got great overlaps going on, but what I don't really know is between 98SE and XP and between XP and 7... are there any games that don't work properly on XP that are better with super powered hardware in 98?
@@philscomputerlab Yes. I have a 386SX16, a 233MMX SS7 with a voodoo1 and an S3 trio(for 386DX to P1MMX stuff), a P3@600 with a 4200ti, an AGP P4 @ 3.2ghz with a 9800pro, an X6 @ 3.2Ghz with a 750ti, and my modern 9900K with a 1080ti. I hope I've got everything covered with enough overlap that I will have a choice of which machine to run anything on.
Quick question about chipset drivers as you went through it quickly. Is it ok to rely on generic drivers Win98 uses for the system then and just leave ones with question marks as-is?
I have had a few dead 9800 and x800 series AGP cards I bought "untested" for a stupidly fast Win98 system. An abandoned old idea. Always thought PCI-E was a no-go, but I know some Voodoo cards with AGP are basicly PCI cards in every way but the physical connector, so this might be a similar case? I've just picked up an x800 GT and an x850 XT (non-PE). Both PCI-E, just take this dream for another spin. Not the very best of the creme de la creme, but I figure both to be overkill for Windows 98 regardless. Just like you said, this does open a few possibillities.
Great job Phil, thanks for that. Pentium 4 mobos with agp slots are still pretty cheap around here, but it's good to have this knowledge. A dificult one to get is a motherboard with universal agp, needed for some voodoo cards.
Just tried using my Radeon X800 GTO (PCIe) with my recently-built Windows 98 rig. Specs are almost the same as yours, with using PCChips P43G (Intel G31 chipset) and Sound Blaster Audigy 1. You can use LoneCrusader's Intel chipset drivers for chipset support. With everything installed, I get a score of 28584 in 3DMark 2001 SE, making it a fantastic performer for a Windows 9x rig.
Great idea , I never knew u could use a PCI e cards . I bought a x800 agp and wasn't cheap. I use Duel boot with xp with athlon 3000+ works well but struggles with grand Prix 4 in xp and 98 need more power lol.
I also tried my old X850 XT AGP with my both Win98SE PCs but never got the drivers running. Tried a dozen of Catalyst drivers but never got the drivers with 3D acceleration working. Maybe it just died over all the years.
When working on writing drivers for an open source project Im involved in I was surprised to learn that pci express is actually easier and much less work than agp to get working. It's obviously different, but there's a parallel with getting VESA modes in that it doesnt require specific chipset support, but rather a standard (over simplified, but it gets the idea across).
Nvidia 7950 GT 512mb works on 98 with the mod drivers. Asus P5k3 is same P35 chipset as your board but is DDR3, might also work? Could then potentially run 1600mhz RAM. E8600 CPUs are super overclockers too, over 5ghz! That would truly be ultimate 98 performance. 🤯
These old Radeon cards look so cool.
its an art
They do, i wish it were more powerful lol
I have about 5-10 of these various old amd & nvidia gpus! My dad used to build computers in the 90’s and 2000’s it’s really cool to look at :D
AxOMA: Bulky but legendary.
_Really_ cool project. This is definitely something I've thought about doing for a long time, but funny enough every time you see people try to get PCI Express working in 98, it's usually with an NVIDIA card. So it's very nice to see this being done with some Radeon GPUs, and you couldn't ask for better results.
Looking very much forward to your next video!
I like using Radeon cards with Windows 98 :) When capturing from DVI for example, DOS output is sharper compared to Nvidia. And the drivers have all the settings, like AA, AF and V-Sync without having to install coolbits registry tweak and things like that. As for game compatibility, it's hard to say, I actually don't test that many games, and have little time to play, so some games might work better on either of them...
From a software point of view PCIe is backward compatible with PCI. Therefore it should work. Of course there can still be issues with drivers support for the device itself, but older operating systems should simply see a PCIe device as if it's simply a regular PCI device. There are even cheap adapters that you can find on places like Ebay and alibaba that will adapt PCi cards to PCIe slots and vise versa. The adapters require no software as they are simply a hardware bridge.
Hey Pixel, love your vids, hey you are good with old stuff being used in new stuff maybe, any chance you could weigh in on something for me quick? I collect GPU's and love switching them in my system and benchmarking them. I have Win 10 and can drop anything in from my DX10 HD 2900xt up to my current 7900 XTX. But if I put in my X850 XT or X1900XT DX9 cards, I can't get a signal, not even the bios. Are some motherboards just not compatible with DX9 cards? I would think it is windows not liking the card, but like I said, no video out at all even for POST screen.
@@QuisquamHam It could be compatibility, but I've also had ATI cards not initialize their monitor outputs because they don't recognize the screen attached.
Windows 98 and DOS-era retro builds are always my favorite!
asus a7n266 vm/aa
Amd athalon 2000
512mb ram
2g/16g CF hds
128mb agp geforce4
Soundblaster audiliogy2
The MB is awesome to start a build has geforce2 32mb and sound built in
The MB is all over
E8600 was such a beast of a chip. Even in a locked down Inspiron 530s, it, with 8GB RAM and a GT 1030, kept me going until last year for home theater and retro gaming/emulation use, on Ubuntu with Wine/Proton.
It's now a file/Plex/Jellyfin/pihole server, after I sold off the 1030. Wolfdale really feels like the Sandy Bridge of Core 2, being relevant far longer than most would've ever guessed.
Can count the 45nm quads too.
If possible try setfsb
My first computer I ever built had an E8400 in it. I ran it for a few years until I jumped over to a phenom ii x6 1100t due to wanting more cores and threads. The E8400 was definitely a beast cpu and I used it as a secondary pc until about 2018 when it died after my nephew's house got hit by lightning in a thunderstorm.
Amazing video, I have a Windows 98 and Windows XP dual boot retro gaming PC and I love it. It's a Pentium 4 at 3ghz with an ATI Radeon X800 XT PE AGP (I couldn't find the X850 XT when I built the PC), and the performance in Windows 98 is outstanding. I also achieved to use 2GB of RAM with the patch you mentioned; I bought it from Rudolph directly, and I had no idea that he passed away, what a loss :__(
Keep up the good work Phil!
Sounds similar to my setup will have to use this patch
Can you advise on the earlier windows 98 16 bit game compatibility? It would be appreciated
Just finished my "supreme" 775/AGP build with a C2X X6800 and a (silent) FX 5950 Ultra -- Got 25000 points in 3D Mark 2001 SE -- Was very proud -- Until I saw this video -- Thanks Phil ;)
Hehe, well now you know what parts to get :D If you get a decent OC your scores will improve across the board as we are heavily CPU limited.
Nice! Answering the questions I didn't know I needed!
Any time!
Agree
I missed the cool cooler designs they used on these. I personally have a diamond multimedia version with Radeon Ruby on it.
I've got an old Sapphire Radeon HD 38070 its very cool. The ASUS GeForce GTX 550 Ti that i replace it with back in teh day is still a very sleek card but it just misses the personality that the old card artwork brought imo.
I remember my first duel boot with 98SE and Win2k Pro. Kids these days don't know the struggle we had back then. Great Video! I'm 3D FX, Voodoo Banshee......TnT2 Riva old!!!
I haven’t heard Phil this excited in awhile lol. As always gr8 work Phil. A Happy New Years as well.
Same to you!
One board i did managed to get Windows 98 with PCIe GPU working is the Gigabyte GA-EP41-UD3L, Intel G41 based
GA-p35c-ds3r works too
Been a couple videos since I commented I think:
Happy Philday!
Cool! I have a couple of early LGA775 boards that won't support Core 2 Duo processors, thus making them unsuitable to build low end Windows 10 machines. This information makes them good candidates to make Windows 98 systems instead of the LGA478 boards I have been using.
Thanks as always for your great videos!
Love seeing these "retro" builds. Very well done.
Funny thing about the ATI X800 series of cards. They were designed to run with a PCIe bus. Even the AGP model. If you look just above the AGP port on the card you will see the chip that converts PCIe to AGP. I believe that ATI called it PCIe to AGP bridge
omg phil.... you r the best win98 retro pc youtuber
For those that want to mess with AGP and PCIE on 775 a good choice would be the 4CoreDual-VSTA board by Asrock as it supported both DDR1 and 2 as well as AGP and PCIE, it was what we used at the shop to test parts during the changeover from AGP to PCIE. It supported from P4 all the way to C2Q so we could test a ton of gear on it and while IIRC out of the box it didn't have Win98 drivers it used a bog standard Via chipset so standard Via Win98 drivers worked.
It was a great test bed platform and looking on eBay they sell for around $60 USD with a CPU so not bad for an LGA 775 that can run anything.
Thanks for the video Phil! Been scratching my head around a K8M890, AM2 board and a Quadro FX 1400 and I thought I was the only one getting issues with Device Manager for the Quadro to work...!
I really enjoy these sorts of videos you do, finding other options for retro hardware. And thank you for sharing the link for the RAM patch, it's going to be very useful
No problem!
@@philscomputerlab two tips for the high-end geforce videos: loew created a bios patch for geforce 6 & 7 cards with 512mb vram, so you can use a unpatched driver.
also for 256mb geforce 7 cards (like 7800gs) you can actually use the last official driver (81.98) without any modification. just force the install, it works. did it myself. at least for cards with the g70 chip. not 100% sure with g71 chips. maybe even the bios patched 512mb cards could work with that driver version.
i still paid for the patch ;) r.i.p. r. loew...
Some time ago I buid a "modern" W98 using a motherboard with Intel 945 chipset and modded drivers and an nVidia 7600 GT and more modded drivers, surprisigly once everybody was installed it runs flawlessly and of course very fast for a W98 machine.
It was an experiment more than anything else and I ended up selling all the parts once I have the system up and running.
Going through this right now - any chance you still have a link to those 945 modded drivers that work on Windows98? Searching high and low - can't find any.
@@envyeleven9471 I'll search for them, although you'll have to wait some time, I'm not in my home this days.
@@shiva_MMIV you home yet?
@@core36 Totally forgot about this, if you're interested I'll see if I still have them somewhere
@@shiva_MMIV yes sir, that would be very nice. Thank you
Nice video, thank you very much for making it.
Windows 98 doesn't care whether video card is PCIe or AGP. If chipset drivers are available it will work. Most PCIe boards do not have working chipset drivers. Drivers install, but system is unstable.
From my experience anything above Intel 8xx series chipset will be a lot of headache. I'm surprised you got a stable system with G31.
Yea I didn't install any chipset drivers :)
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! I've been waiting for this video for so long.
(Imagine british soccers fans reaction)
Always a joy to watch your videos and many thanks for your hard work.
I do have a P4 w/ HT machine that just barely works.
HDD is dying. And the mainboard doesn't have batteries.
And it runs WinXP
I manage to boot it up and all for the first 2-3 days.
But I never had a chance to troubleshoot my 9600XT, nor my Geforce 4 mx400.
They might be dead.
But I have hardware that have managed to boot, now that we have confirmed that SSD works on Win98, I'm gonna test it when time is conveniet.
Awesome Video Phil, Thank You very much
Nvidia cards up to 6800 works with default drivers.
Its the 7000 and 8000 cards you can get working with modified drivers!
I tried posting the link to the modified drivers twice now.
But just google this, and you will find them:
"Geforce 6/7 and 8 AGP/PCI-E Driver Edition for Win98/ME by Zak!"
I got the 9600gt working with 98
I have heard rumours of 8000 series cards working but I've never seen any proof
@GS-kh5se hmmm...a video idea 💡
Anyway, you can find the driver by googling: "Geforce 6/7 and 8 AGP/PCI-E Driver Edition for Win98/ME by Zak!"
@@GS-kh5sethere are modified drivers for 7/8k cards to work in 98se
Just wanted to thank you for this video. I was able to test a similar setup recently: ASUS P5KPL-AM EPU / Core2 e8400 / Hynix DDR2 5300u @ 667 / Radeon x800 XT
My average 3D Mark 2001 score was 34280, but I had several system and PCI devices that are not supported or do not have drivers. So I tried something else...
With these parts, I was able to get 3D Mark 2001 scores in the 23500 range on an ASRock ALIVESATA2-GLAN and Athlon 64 4000+ with 1mb cache overclocked from 2.6 GHz to 2.88 GHz. The AM2 board used a VIA chipset with working drivers for everything except an ACPI motherboard resource. Also got in the 22500 range on a Fujitsu-Siemens D2030-A Socket 939 board with an Athlon 64 3700+, SiS chipsets, fully supported with all drivers. Fun projects, all PCI Express, all working with the caveats mentioned for the AM2 and 775 boards.
Awesome outcome! Yes PCIe feels so won't but the more surprising to see it actually work 😜
Great experiment Phil. I just love 775. Sooo versatile.
Love the vid, Phil. I had pretty good success using the ATI X850 XT PE vid card, ASUS P5KPL-AM SE motherboard and the other hardware listed (other than using an Audigy 2 ZS instead of a Live! which I also have but prefer the Audigy better). This is maybe the 15th Win98 system I've built over the years. However it's been tricky getting it to boot consistently when using over 512 MB of RAM even with Rudolph Loew's patchmem installed. With 1 GB or 2 GB installed sometimes it boots, but usually it just starts to load Windows and the reboots before the login. With a single 512 MB stick of RAM it's super rock-solid and is most stable Win98 system I've had in 20+ years. I ordered some different RAM so I'll have to see how that works out.
Hi! I have a question regarding Audigy 2 ZS and SB Live. I guess both of them don't have official Win98 drivers? Could use some help on how to install drivers for these so that they work properly with Win98
I'm glad that networking will have more focus in the next videos because I've always wanted a networking solution to transfer files between my retro and modern PCs and I've not been completely successful in implementing such a solution yet. I have to keep the USB controller disabled due to resource conflicts with my sound card so file transfer using a flash drive can be a pain sometimes. Very nice video.
Great video Phil as always!
This Asus P5KPL-AM SE is very capable for light overclocking. My C2D E8400 and C2Q Q9400 ran stable with 400 Mhz FSB on this board.
Does it need expensive cooler to reach that limit?
@@Vantud391 I used the stock, passive heatsink on the north bridge, but i bought a cheap ID Cooling mini tower cooler for the Q9400.
Another brilliant video. Happy New Year Phil.
Love those old motherboards that show transition from one technology to another.
More benchmark footage please maybe side by side comparing both setups. Thank you for the content.
I agree. Would be great to have a "part 2" video with in depth game benchmarks on resolutions, frame rates, and game compatibility. I know it takes alot of time to set this all up and edit them though.
Great job! I just installed Win98 on my 775Dual-VSTA yesterday. I'm going to attempt PICe on 98/XP like you did. AGP with a voodoo2 for 98/DOS....it'll be interesting!
If you're using Nvidia cards under w98 there are modified drivers (82.69) that support 7000 and 8000 series. I previously had my 8800GTS 640MB working under 98se but I think I had KernelEx installed too so that may have helped.
Really enjoyed the video. Thanks for these. I would definitely be interested in the networking videos for DOS up through Win98. I would also be interested to see the video on the alternative sound card driver installation.
Got it! I also want to do more tutorials again, release them on a Bonus Tuesday :)
I had a Nvidia 6600 GT PCI-E running on a dual core motherboard about 10 years ago. Performance was fantastic but i could no longer use DOS. PCI-E cards from Nvidia break DOS in Windows 98. I never tried any ATI PCI-E cards so i can't comment on those. Great video.
hi, say - what kind of trouble did it give you in DOS ?
It completely locked up the system. It's all or nothing I'm afraid.
there are some early LGA775 chipsets like the VIA P4M900 which have native windows 98 drivers and have working PCIe that'll work well with a build with those ati graphics card.
the (ASUS P5VD2-VM SE) LGA775 motherboard is one with windows 98 drivers.
Another cool thing with VIA chipsets is that you can have Sound Blaster compatibility under MS-DOS without any TSR's using sound cards based on the ESS Solo-1 and Avance Logic ALS4000. Unfortunately the Solo-1 refuses to use the VxD drivers on my VIA PCIe motherboard so I'm stuck with the WMD drivers.
19:15 Cheap as chips until a video is made about them hehe =)
I dig how you're always exploring new ways to dive into 98SE, often making it more accessible and affordable in the process. I also saw Joseph's thread about installing Live cards with Audigy drivers, and a video on that would be cool. And I'd be keen on more networking stuff too. I'm already using FTP on my DOS and W98 machines, which has been game changing. Next item on my wishlist is to set up shares from a NAS that can be mounted on my retro machines. Currently tinkering with EtherDFS for mounting network drives under DOS.
Nice! Yea FTP works out of the box is very handy. I also had WebDAV working, but connecting directly to Windows share is still the most convenient method IMO. But in time, legacy features will get removed, and sooner or later we won't be able to network like that... I have to look up EtherDFS, sounds interesting! I use mTCP currently, I can GET individual files, but the MGET command doesn't work, throws an error about filename issues... I'm working with the author of mTCP, hopefully we can resolve this. You can run a FTP server on DOS and use a client from a Windows machine, but I find it neater to just have the NAS running and not involve another computer.
@@philscomputerlab Yep, currently using mTCP's FTP server and managing files with Filezilla on my main PC. (On the W98 machines I'm using WarFTP for the server). At first I thought that's all I would need, but I soon decided a NAS would be a good idea too.
@@Grus0 I think you will enjoy having a NAS! I don't want to sound like a sales person, but it has made my digital life so much easier, everything is in one place and all machines can access it. The NAS has features way past what I use, you can connect a monitor, keyboard, mouse and use it basically as a PC! Install a VM, Windows 10, I even had Crysis running on it!
@@philscomputerlab Yep, I think it's definitely going to happen!
What a video! I can´t wait to see what kind of solutions you´ve come up with Win98 & networking :D
More to come!
@@philscomputerlab ;)
Works great wirh my P5KPL-AM EPU mainboard. But i had also to deactivate the Standard Display Adapter (VGA) as well. Big Thanx to Phil!
Great 👍
Hey ElTentakel, what GPU are you using?
To avoid the resource conflict with the video card, i usually just disable the integrated graphics outright. then the video card works without any issues after installing the ati catalyst drivers so you don't need to disable anything in device manager. Although I'm not sure how it is with nvidia's side.
@@fabioefs2006 Itried successfully a Radeon X800 GTO first, it words perfect. I also tried a Geforce 6800GS and it also works, but there are some issues in some Games due to the bad driver support. I used "NV8269.EXE".
But the 6800 GS might be the better card to emulate 3Dfx Games with nGlide.
Good video! I've had some success doing the Win98/XP dual boot systems, and your parts used here are a pretty close match. The South Bridge being an early ICH5 is generally the only one to support both 98 and XP, with the earlier North Bridges like i865G also working well. Congrats on the PCIE success! I've never been able to make that work.
Man, I've been hearing about this (pcie gpus supposedly working in Win 98 under some circumstances) for some years now, but this is the first time we actually have a concise video on the topic! What's left now is to try to topple the previously considered to be fastest card in Win 98 (the 7950gt agp with modified drivers from the 6000 series) with its bigger brother - the 7900gtx (that obviously only comes in pcie variant) while at the same time maybe also OC the E8600 (a famously good chip in that regard, known to hit 5.0 Ghz in some cases) sky high. That might be just enough to push some of the games over 1000 fps, lol.
Win 9x can work on ich9, 10 and 11 based boards. This also includes some Core i - 8xx and 9xx systems (ie. core 2 e8x00 isnt the fastest supported cpu for Win9x).
I love your video's.I am busy with a old amd 939 that i will use as a retro pc.Did a mobo upgrade 2 weeks ago.Just been busy with rl before i set her up.Nothing was wrong with the old mobo just the new one has better oc capability.I fitted a custom air cooler and gonna try breach 1000mhz oc on air.People ask what am i to gain for fixing an old pc and my answer is simple.Knowledge.Doesn't matter how much you learn there's always way to improve.
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This is amazing! I didn't know this was possible, and now it opens up so many doors! :)
Obviously you need to dig into Nvidia cards next. If you can get that working, that'd be huge.
The NAS video you hinted about, that sounds great too. I suck at networking stuff, so any guides are welcome, hehe.
What a way to open up a new year eh. Cheers Phil, you rock.
Yea it does open so many doors 🙂
Nvidia cards work too. Only problem is the newer drivers you have to use that don't work well with some older titles.
@@philscomputerlab I say networking opens up.....ports ;)
I'll see myself out.
@@MarcoGPUtuber Hehe good one 😁
interesting to see how these last gpu cards for win 98se work and learning what are the drawbacks to using them. I'm very curious to see a comparison on how the late nvidia cards (geforce fx 5900/5950 and geforce 6800) also work with 98se, how the 8 bit palletized texture/table fog are affected and also how is the 98se compatibility are affected with later and earlier games using these cards. I did find recently that Nvidia had a table fog emulation available but not sure which software or os. I copied this instruction to find table fog emulation from a battlefront forum circa 2002 posted by user "Schrullenhaft":
Start Menu > Settings > Control Panel > Display control panel > Settings tab > Advanced... button > at this point it may vary, NVidia will have a tab with the name of the video card and others may list their advanced configuration tabs here (Direct3D or DirectX tabs for some brands) > Additional Properties button (NVidia) > Direct3D Settings tab (NVidia) > Enable Fog-table Emulation check box (NVidia)
Oh, my God, it's Phil. (Quake's "The Seal of Nehahra" movie reference) On a serious note, this is something I have to try.
Quake 3 Arena
I find just capping at 125fps feels better with com_maxfps 125
@@davkdavk com_maxfps 250 also better
Quake Live (the relevant Quake 3 iteration today) has a forced cap of 125 fps that can't be changed.
@@davkdavk 333fps is best, but make sure sv_fps is set to 125 or else physics will break.
@@wasd____ it can be changed to 250 via command described above you
Great fun to watch, nice work!
He passed?.... :( :( :( What a great fellow for making this patch and props to his family for making it free for everyone to use even after he passed, I think he would have appreciated that from the after life...
waiting for your video thanks :)
Yeah, a follow-up with Geforce and Quadro cards world be amazing. We could use something like NGlide for 3DFX too.
I have actually got nglide working perfectly via DirectX 9 using an ati radeon x700 pro pcie on a asus p5kpl-am epu mainboard with fully working 32 bit hardrive access with sata.
Games like motorcross racer and unreal look freakin awesome on high redolutions.
If only 3Dfx lived long enough to make PCIe cards. :) I wonder how the Original Halo on PC would measure up. Although, that might be asking for a lot.
That naked chipset on the AGP board looks weird. So used to seeing it covered.
that's R18!
meh, it's just the south bridge / IO controller
I'm really looking forward to seeing how you manage to network everything. I have a fileserver that I will be running Unraid on and this would be so useful for my retro builds.
Recently someone gave me a Foxconn k8m890m2ma-rs2h motherboard with a Sempron 3600+ and a PCIe X300. Just out of curiosity I installed Windows 98 and I was pleasantly surprised. I haven't tested it much, but I've played NFS Porsche Unleashed and it was very quick. VIA drivers installed with no errors, but I do get some unknown devices in device manager, and I had to use a PCI soundcard, as the onboard was not detected.
10:30 - Just a bit of curiosity: have you noticed that the X800 GT and X850 XT cards have the same PCB? In the video you can see that they have the exact same component layout, but the X800 GT is missing the external power socket on the back and has a smaller cooler, but you can see the outline and mounting holes for the larger cooler of the X850. In fact they have the same part number (109-A47401-10). I guess this is because they have the same GPU, the X800 GT just has a lower-binned version.
I love old hardware...
I've been rocking a X3220 and a AGP X850XT for a while now with Win98. Blindingly fast on Win98!
I don't have an actual use for windows 98, as all the games I used to play back then usually work or have patches to work under XP, for dos games all work perfectly fine in dosbox, my retro xp machine has an HD 3650 agp version, performance is similar to this card and gives me that retro feeling I want from an old computer
The only real thing your missing is the music quality. I was shocked how much clearer and vibrant dos games sound using real soundblaster hardware.
Dosbox is good enough 95% of the time but there are a few games that no matter how you adjust the timing it doesn't feel quite right.
Please record a video about SB Live! installation I have the same problem.
TRULY THE ULTIMATE WINDOWS 98 SE RETRO MACHINE: DUAL CORE, DDR2, PCIe GPU, SSD, AND SB WITH DOS COMPATIBILITY.
Those videos on DOS networking with NAS are going to be great.
Great video Phil. Thanks.
Nice to see network being covered a bit more in the future! Small note though: whatever you do, do NOT mix old Windows machines with your 'daily use' home network. Plit them! Might be a nice topic for a future video as well, to discuss the various options. ie a separate vlan, or a separate switch/router.. You could do all kinds of fun things with it; ie use a simple router/wifi/switch box where you use the rj45 ports for your retro machines and the wifi radio for the internet uplink etc.. Fun :)
To be honest this stuff is above my skillset. The machines get an IP address from th Internet modem/router, including default gateway and Internet access. So the retro machines are indeed at risk...
@@philscomputerlab The NAS has two RJ-45 ports. Perhaps use one Ethernet port for the daily use network and another port for a separated 'retro' network. The NAS will then have two IP addresses completely separate from each other.
@@ASUSTOR_YT Thanks for the tip, that worked! I used an old modem/router and connected that to the second Ethernet port! I now have a separate Retro LAN, that's not connected to the Internet and let's all the older systems (DOS, 98, XP, Vista) talk to the NAS without catching bugs :D
Very interested in that NAS and the PCI-E possibilities.
Excellent 😊👍
Thanks 😊
Geforce 6 Series has official Win98 drivers and they work fine. For the 7 Series there is a workaround but i never tried that, would be interesting to see how they perform in Win98
i'd love to see that workaround too
@@LindenAshbyMK For the 7 series you just need to use the Tweaked Unofficial
NVIDIA Display Driver 82.69. These are the only drivers that work for these cards under Windows 98.
It's been alleged that some of the series 6 cards don't work properly under 98 if they have the NV44 chipset, such as the 6200le
I have an AGP version of a ATI 1950GT but there are no drivers out there to get it running under 98SE
Great and informative video Phil! I have a X700 PRO AGP Win98 build and performance is excellent compared to NVIDIA FX series, but I did have a few issues. I could not get 1080p working on ATI card and playing DOS games inside Win98 had some graphical issues (Duke3D especially, window displays garbled horizontal lines). I think I was using same drivers as you (cat 6.2)
My late 98/Early XP build uses an AGP x800 Pro Video card and a Socket A Athlon XP 3000+.
It's pretty good, but I've been thinking of moving to Socket 939 for cooler CPU temps.
Trying to do this , struggling to find win 98 support on a socket 939 . Sockets a I had no problems
I eventually got an ATI All-in-Wonder X800XL PCIe working in Windows 98SE on an Intel 965 chipset based machine using Catalyst 6.2. The trick with that machine was the rloew RAM patch. Before that even with only 256MB installed in the machine I could never get the video driver working.
ASRock had very interesting boards back then.
I had an socket 478 board with AGP and PCIe, the ASRock P4Dual 915GL. Where you could use both at the same time, crazy times.
Greetings Philscomputerlab! I have PCIe GeForce 7950 GT OC 512MB running Win98SE, Msdos 6.22, and WinME. The motherboard used is DDR2 ASRock 4CoreDUOSATA-2 VER 1.2. Motherboard comes with drivers for win98 to win7. Was using AGP 7900GS 512MB but 7950 is fastest. I have some problems with sata2 ports so I use ide to sata adapters for two 128GB sata SSD.
Sadly most hardware will be refused by Ultima7 without major hair pulling. I use U98 to help get around nasty DOS sound driver issues, and that stupid protected memory restriction. But this video was about 98(does frontend) on semi newer hardware.
before watching: PCI, and PCIe are "the same" as far as an OS knows, they're logically the same.
Though, there is the issue of finding Windows 98 drivers for new cards in 2021.
@@TheTurnipKing Well, yeah, but an HD 3850 isn't going to work regardless if it's AGP or PCIe variant, it's not the slot it's the card.
@@TheTurnipKing Virtually impossible to find one for brand new cards, luckily it's still relatively easy and cheap to get a PCIe based GeForce 6 series or Radeon 9000/x*00 series PCIe variant which do have Win9x support.
I also wonder how possible a community written driver could be for Win9x machines, basically using the open source Linux drivers to figure things out as that'd allow support under Win9x for up to nVidia's Kepler GPUs and basically all of AMD and Intels GPUs (Pretty sure there's also open source drivers for the less-prominent manufacturers including 3DFX, S3, etc) while also allowing the community to request driver-side features/fixes/optimisations. (eg. Making *any* GPU run the vendor-specific miniGL implementations to make say, running a Glide or MeTaL game on a modern Radeon or Intel GPU as simple as running it on a Voodoo)
@@TheDemocrab funny, I was just wondering the other day how damn nigh useless "display adaptors" like the gt710 would stack up against vintage but expensive 3D accelerators
@@TheTurnipKing That is actually a really interesting question that's gotten me thinking and going by the pixel/texture fillrates, I'd guess that a GT710 would be within the ballpark of a Radeon 9600Pro for its performance assuming both cards have optimised drivers. The GT710 would be faster for sure, but it's a question of how much in which games as the pixel fillrate is only a shade higher (1.6GPixels/S for the 9600Pro vs 1.62GPixels/S for the GT710) while the texture fillrate is a lot higher (Radeon 9600Pro is 1.6GP/s, the GT710 is 6.4GP/s) which means that the GT710 will perform better in games with lots of texturing, but most 9x games are pretty limited in that which means both cards should be pretty close.
Obviously this is theoretical, fillrates don't necessarily tell the whole story. Maybe the GT710 is lacking support for some specific hardware feature that was common back in the 9x era and has to emulate it in software instead which would slow things down, or maybe there could be some interesting driver-side game optimisations that could be applied thanks to modern GPUs being far different to older GPUs in terms of design which could speed things up.
On the AGP system with more than one PCI slot you could test a Voodoo 2 in it as a secondary card for games that require 8 bit palletized textures, but I am uncertain if that would create more conflicts in Windows 98 SE or not. If you could get it to work that would make one hell of Windows 98 retro machine though.
Now that you mention nVidia cards, I tried my GF 6600LE pciE graphics on win98 cpu P4 HT 3.2 and motherboard Asus p5gdc Deluxe using UnOfficial drivers But I ran through a lot of problems regarding Fullscreen games :(
I am confused. At 12:21 you have the 3DMark 2001 score at 33k but on the very next slide you have it over 37k when comparing with the other graphics cards. I am getting about 34.5k on my PCIe x850XT under Win98 with 1Gb RAM and 3.0Ghz Xeon quad core. Strangly if I increase the RAM to 8gb, the performance goes down to 28.5k. Under XP the performance is not effected by the amount of RAM (I get just over 39k on XP). I am not sure why Win9x is slower with more RAM, but I am ok with it, as the peformance is still excellent. I intend to also boot this PC into Linux for web browsing etc.
Phil can you do some work with the slot A chips
Phil:
DOS & Win98 NAS tutorials, please!
Stay tuned ;)
Another vote for that. My full-time DOS PC thanks you.
Since now you have all this hardware, it would be nice to see another, more closely matched comparison with the same CPU in both motherboards, and limiting the X850 XT PE to the same clock speeds as the AGP version (with something like Ati Tray Tools). This way we could see the performance advantage (if any?) of the PCIe gen.1 interface over AGP.
Truthfully, there wouldn't be any difference if you were to use the same CPU on both platforms. The AGP 8X interface is more than capable of handling a Radeon X850 XT (in fact, it can even handle fine a much faster card, like the Radeon HD3850. Now, the caveat is that you can't use the E8600 CPU on the AGP system. In fact, the E8600 CPU is extremely overclockable, it can easily go to 4+ GHz, so that would make the PCI Express system even faster - although not sure why you'd want that when you already get 400+ FPS in most games :-)
The main advantage of running Windows 98 on a PCI Express system is PRICE. The AGP + Socket 775 motherboards are getting more rare and expensive, same with the AGP versions of the X800/X850 cards. On the other hand, PCI Express motherboards and video cards are still cheap and easy to find.
I was playing around with a PCIe->PCI bridge on my windows 10 desktop and found out something cool.
I was testing a PCI Audigy ZS2 with the bridge, and figured out I could disable it in device manager, and *hotplug* a PCI 10/100 NIC. I tested with other PCI devices, and all of them reported okay in windows, but the NIC and Audigy were the only two I was able to actually test (other cards I have are modems and FireWire cards).
Interesting way to quickly test multiple PCI cards without rebooting. I wonder if it would work on this Win98 machine?? The bridge is from Startech
Love your videos!
Thank you!
Fascinating video. It's really interesting to see what can be made to be compatible with Win98SE. I do have a question though and I think you'll be well placed to answer. In my head I remember it being more about a question of getting drivers to work and getting directX to work and once that happened games weren't really bothered if it was 98 or XP. But I'm a little cautious in assuming that's right because I clearly remember back in the day that if you asked anything about 98 people would just say "Go XP it's better you idiot", because back in the day there was always a relentless push forward to new tech and new games and old stuff was scorned. The reason behind my question is I'm trying to build a set of PCs (I'm up to 6 now) to cover games right from the start of IBM-PC to current day. I've got great overlaps going on, but what I don't really know is between 98SE and XP and between XP and 7... are there any games that don't work properly on XP that are better with super powered hardware in 98?
Yea many games work on both, 98 and XP. But with 98 you also get DOS and other parts like Voodoo graphics or A3D that don't work under 98.
@@philscomputerlab Yes. I have a 386SX16, a 233MMX SS7 with a voodoo1 and an S3 trio(for 386DX to P1MMX stuff), a P3@600 with a 4200ti, an AGP P4 @ 3.2ghz with a 9800pro, an X6 @ 3.2Ghz with a 750ti, and my modern 9900K with a 1080ti. I hope I've got everything covered with enough overlap that I will have a choice of which machine to run anything on.
Good job, Buddy👍👍👍👍👍
You can patch a motherboard to get past its RAM limit? Is there a way to do that with the ECS 945GCT-M3?
Need to see a 98 setup with a 7950gt pcie card running. Glad to see radeon pcie cards working though!
I have a 7900 GTX working great in windows 98. I used 82.69 driver.
@@monotoneone any issues with it or are there certain things that don't run?
@@tomat7041 It has been a few years and I don't think I ever tested it much. But those 82.69 drivers do have issues (even with AGP cards).
I believe its just with modified drivers like this.
Google: "Geforce 6/7 and 8 AGP/PCI-E Driver Edition for Win98/ME by Zak!"
Quick question about chipset drivers as you went through it quickly. Is it ok to rely on generic drivers Win98 uses for the system then and just leave ones with question marks as-is?
Awesome vid man 👍
Thanks 👍
I have had a few dead 9800 and x800 series AGP cards I bought "untested" for a stupidly fast Win98 system.
An abandoned old idea. Always thought PCI-E was a no-go, but I know some Voodoo cards with AGP are basicly PCI cards in every way but the physical connector, so this might be a similar case?
I've just picked up an x800 GT and an x850 XT (non-PE). Both PCI-E, just take this dream for another spin. Not the very best of the creme de la creme, but I figure both to be overkill for Windows 98 regardless. Just like you said, this does open a few possibillities.
This video helped me get a system working with a Geforce 6800 and a Pentium M on an industrial itx 915gm motherboard with all chipset drivers.
Also compare the slot with the socket version of the same speed chip. Slot a and slot 1 and their socket counterparts
Great job Phil, thanks for that. Pentium 4 mobos with agp slots are still pretty cheap around here, but it's good to have this knowledge. A dificult one to get is a motherboard with universal agp, needed for some voodoo cards.
There are no chipset drivers! Just install graphics drivers, Ethernet drivers and Sound Card drivers.
@@philscomputerlab Really cool!
Just tried using my Radeon X800 GTO (PCIe) with my recently-built Windows 98 rig. Specs are almost the same as yours, with using PCChips P43G (Intel G31 chipset) and Sound Blaster Audigy 1. You can use LoneCrusader's Intel chipset drivers for chipset support.
With everything installed, I get a score of 28584 in 3DMark 2001 SE, making it a fantastic performer for a Windows 9x rig.
Great idea , I never knew u could use a PCI e cards . I bought a x800 agp and wasn't cheap. I use Duel boot with xp with athlon 3000+ works well but struggles with grand Prix 4 in xp and 98 need more power lol.
I also tried my old X850 XT AGP with my both Win98SE PCs but never got the drivers running. Tried a dozen of Catalyst drivers but never got the drivers with 3D acceleration working. Maybe it just died over all the years.
When working on writing drivers for an open source project Im involved in I was surprised to learn that pci express is actually easier and much less work than agp to get working.
It's obviously different, but there's a parallel with getting VESA modes in that it doesnt require specific chipset support, but rather a standard (over simplified, but it gets the idea across).
the older board has connection for serieal and 2 ide hardrivers and a floppy drive - and maybe the old sata drives
Nvidia 7950 GT 512mb works on 98 with the mod drivers. Asus P5k3 is same P35 chipset as your board but is DDR3, might also work? Could then potentially run 1600mhz RAM. E8600 CPUs are super overclockers too, over 5ghz! That would truly be ultimate 98 performance. 🤯