I grew up a lot like Holly did but in the Baptist church. I'm sure there's a group of us never Mormons who enjoy watching the Mormon Stories Podcast because what you talk about is very similar to what we experienced.
I'm ex-RLDS (a splinter group of LDS) and jumped ship in my mid-20s in favor of a Baptist church. I've been there another 15 years and now starting to recognize concepts that are still very difficult to believe. It's a weird place to tread water.
I've been watching MSP for the past couple weeks and it's been helping me unpack a lot of religious trauma. I grew up evangelical, too, and I've really been looking forward to this interview! I can relate to most of the guests, but Holly's story especially resonated with me (for obvious reasons) - especially questioning the all loving father/husband narrative contrasted with the damnation and smite thee God. I'm also in the same space that my family won't engage in religious or political discussions with me unless, I'm agreeing with them. I don't see that ever changing either, but it is immensely helpful to know that I'm not alone in the long process of deconstructing my beliefs and understanding the psychology behind it. You are all amazing people!
"One foot in the grave one foot on a banana peel" is now in my vocabulary forever thank you. Soul winning sounded normal to me too so also grateful to John for pointing out that wasn't obvious to all
im a nevermo excatholic who has been a listener now for months and this one has really been helpful for me. johns theological questions were really good and honestly helpful to ask myself as i watched. always love all the interviews though
Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. I grew up in the same church as Holly (am same age and was friends with her youngest sister). I found this interview accidentally after going down an internet rabbit hole that began with me searching for a band her middle sister was in when I was in high school. Our stories overlap more than I expected, since I experienced a lot of trauma related to “spiritual warfare,” even though demons etc. weren’t something normally talked about in our congregation. But I (and her youngest sister) witnessed “demonic activity” while on a missions trip in high school. That was the beginning of the end for me, but of course it’s been a long, difficult road, and greatly strained my relationship with my parents. Thank to the hosts for flying Holly out for this and thanks to Holly for being so open. I deeply appreciate it.
I was raised Evangelical and this is one of the most validating conversations/interviews I have seen. Especially the constant praying and asking Jesus for forgiveness over and over as a child. I was diagnosed with ocd almost 10 years ago so this is incredibly relevant!!
Wow Holly is really great. As I’m still processing my faith transition from Mormonism I was unsure how relatable and how much this story would resonate with me. But it was so correlated to my and probably most Mormon stories in so many ways. Thanks John for bringing Holly on and Holly for sharing your story. You are so lovely and a wonderful person. Def going to check out your podcast.
Holly’s experience growing up evangelical is so much like mine, although my deconstruction was much longer and more gradual. The similar-but-just-removed-enough feeling that John and Jen experienced is what I regularly get from Mormon Stories and other exmo content. Even the very specific Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon debunking helps me wrap my mind and heart around fact checking the teachings I grew up with in the evangelical Christian church.
This is amazing. I grew up Evangelical and desperately wanted to be Mormon like my friends. What a beautiful talk; I love seeing the commonalities that we experience in all these different sects. ❤
i believe the commonalities in Holly's story and the stories I've heard on MSP are even more universal. I was not raised in a church and I'm relating to a lot of what I'm hearing in this episode (meaning I'm shedding a lot of tears), especially related to family disconnect, parents not wanting to hear the truth, feeling unworthy, and even fear of God. i am a United Methodist clergywoman today (retired), having found my way into the faith on my own. i have heard these kinds of stories from parishioners who grew up in the church. i have done what I can to help others unlearn what they learned as children in the church, all the while working to unlearn what I learned as a child outside the faith. As an adult, I, too have gained a lot of the knowledge Holly has about the history of the Christian faith. I have learned NT Greek. And I am sad that many (most?) Christians don't have basic background info about the faith. Today at age 72, I'm still inlearning those childhood lessons, while trying to spritually navigate a major split in the denomination I chose to be a part of 41 years ago and while questionng my reasons for staying in the church. it's hard work.
I grew up in an evangelical southern baptist home and the conversation about codependency is eerily identical to my experience. so many things Holly is talking about relate to the way I grew up. I love hearing someone else talk about these things
This interview 🤯 I'm relating so much to this. The scrupulosity is real for many, including myself. John once again, brilliant interview! Thank you Holly. Looking forward to listening to part 2.
Holly Laurent rocks! So insightful and raw. 2 hours in and so interesting to see evangelical Christianity through her eyes and to see The differences and intersections of Mormonism through her reactions!
I loved this podcast. It opened my mind to that purity culture that we grow up with. I was part of that too. For many years I had so much guilt regarding sex. Thank you guys for having these podcast. I am learning so much.
I didn’t grow up in an evangelical household by any means, I’m from the uk and my parents were traditional mainstream Church of England, but I identified with a a lot of the discussions about purity culture, guilt and shame and as a consequence ‘learning to lie’ as an adolescent to cover up my normal, healthy teen behaviour. A very enlightening conversation, thank you so much Holly for being so open and sharing your experience. And thanks John and Jen for the thoughtful and insightful analysis.
I can relate to this. I don't feel like I live in the same reality as my parents and it's painful. I am not a bad person but if they knew all of me they would think I am going to hell, if I don't change. This interview is really touching, thank you so much for being this vunerable!
We have come a long way from the days when atheist were shy to admit there disbelief in mystical superstitions from long ago. Wow! I thought these days would never get here. All high control businesses (religions) use the same tactics in one form or another and you are doing valuable service for us in religion, politics and business! You do not have to be stupid to be deceived, but it helps.
This is a welcome interview. I came from the evangelical Christian tradition. It mirrors a lot of the alleged problems people on this channel find with Mormonism.
Like others in these comments, I found Mormon Stories during this time of my life when I find my faith deconstructing. As I watched/ listened I kept thinking how very similar LDS traditions of faith were with my Baptist upbringing. Yes, there are big differences as well but the similarities are big. I feel I have learned to think a lot more critically about what/why I believe the things I choose.
What a great episode. Holly is such a wonderful and touching storyteller. It's amazing to hear the similarities between stories of people from different religious backgrounds.
I grew up in Baptist fundamentalism. Women never wore pants and most secular music was condemned even the CCM. It is like its own world. I remember as a boy the older pastor son would rebel and listen "Love and Rockets" and INXS on the radio since his dad told him it was devil's music. He also would light up a cigarette since he was told "they were evil and encouraged worldliness."
I went through that phase where I was told my records were all the devil's music. My regret is I listened and got rid of the records. I always say I had experienced the three churches to avoid: Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, and Methodist.
Love this….so informative….as former RLDS would love some interviews like this on the other religious movements,religions,…that came out of Joseph Smiths movement!
Oh gosh, Holly. I just got to the part about your wedding. I'm so sorry you and your husband had to go through that. What a selfish & cruel thing for your dad to do.
Replacement "Father" at 29:06. I think that is common among LDS and evangelical Christians. Many of the members (particularly women) did not have great fathers growing up. So a church tells you Jesus loves you. And then you are told God loves you unconditionally. That is what attracts many people to a church.
John-soul winning/evangelizing is similar to mission work. It might have helped to have someone who understands both groups to help you and your audience see the similarities.
I've watched this episode a while back and neded to step back a bit. I come from Germany and my church was very evangelical like and had many Toronto blessing symptoms during the worship. I can see soooooooooooo many parallels between Holly and me. And I think I might have scrupulosity. So I spoke to a psychologist and she connected me with somebody who specialises in sects and cults. So in a few days we (my psychologist and me) will meet the specialist. I hope there will be more healing soon... This interview helped me to understand me better and to finaly speak with somebody about fears and believes and maybe my religious trauma...
Prayers for seizures pretty much sums up my experience at Christian shows (that I had to literally sneak out to, because they played music with a beat - another 'fun' sect of Fundamental weird I grew up with) as a teenager. Found out in my 20's that Depakote and later carbamazapine were much more effective. Who knew?
My goodness really enjoyable and conversation I was also raised in a super duper believing family...the wedding story could feel her embarrassment and the the rest. Thanks for this made me remember and feel that same inner world of pain and management that only those raised in religion can....but in a good way
There is a good documentary I would recommend on an Evangelical Christian Megachurch. It is called "Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed." It is on UA-cam in three parts.
I'm curious if this changed your opinion of their music; some of my favorite praise/worship genre is by Hillsong. The musicians on stage seem genuine but the documentary made it seem like it's all about the Benjamins. Many churches are dropping them to disassociate from Hillsong.
@@Latter-Day-Aint I have always liked their music since I attended a service in Sydney years ago. I also saw them when Hillsong came to Toronto. I even have some of the CDs. I know a lot of churches are banning the Hillsong music now from worship service. The lyrics are not directly taken from passages of the Bible like hymns are. I like the music. It could be classified as inspirational music as well as Christian. Many of the musicians don't get paid well and are away from family months on end. It will be interesting to see what happens with the organization and if ends up going the way of non-defunct PTL club.
When your grandpa would convince someone to say the the sinners prayer was he done looking after their spiritual well being after that or was he concerned about them attending church and generally living lives that reflect the standards that Jesus taught?
"Fruits of the Spirit" and other Christian jargon and argot at 22:56.This is exactly the type of language used among born again or evangelical Christians. In the field of Sociology argot is a term used to describe linguistic devices groups use to define themselves. It is funny how evangelicals have an argot just like Mormons do. In a way it is indicative of a religious subculture. Part of the purpose that argot serves is to keep outsiders from knowing all your business. On the other hand it cements members within a church as part of a community with insider knowledge that others don't have.
I'm a ex-RLDS who now attends a southern Baptist church. They definitely push the fruits of the spirit; there's a song and everything. When she started listing them off, it was hard to not sing along. I'm not on either side of this but it's interesting to think of it from another perspective.
Sexual purity at 1:27:27. In evangelical circles they have pledges young women sign to stay pure until marriage. They also have Christian universities with a purity culture similar to BYU. This all is well and good until couples marry and the sexual dysfunction begins.
I'm only half way through this ridiculously long podcast, and I'm so surprised by Holly's conversation about her family. I actually knew them and went to the same church, my brother Steve was friends with her brother Chris and I was friends with her sisters. Her parents were so loving and her grandfather who pastored our church was the kindest man ever. He definitely walked out the fruits of the spirit just as she said. The ironic thing about her story is, her parents were loving and committed to one another and she seems to have become an atheist, whereas my Dad who also attended the church, with us his family and even taught Sunday school sometimes, divorced my loving and devoted mother to marry his mistress. Talk about a shocker, I was 7 years old and didn't understand what the hell was going on. I also rebelled as a teenager/young adult but something crazy happened... I walked out on my husband and one year old daughter at 19 to live a reckless and selfish life. I, like Holly, wanted to do what felt good and live in the moment. I never questioned God's existence though, I just basically gave him the finger. My family prayed and prayed for me. But I continued to dishonor them, my husband, daughter and like I said, God. I got pregnant and was basically homeless and still had no remorse. Hard-hearted. Then God woke me up in the dead of night on the floor of my best friend's parents house where I was temporarily crashing and he took what I can only explain as a veil off my eyes. I saw all the pain and heartache I had been causing, I felt all the shame. I was completely and utterly broken and remorseful. And then...in an instant, I felt the overwhelming power of God's love and grace wash over me. He pulled me out of the pit I had crawled into, no, he met me in that pit and he saved me. He redeemed my marriage, my relationship with my family and my life. This year, my husband and I celebrated our 29th wedding anniversary. I am a result of faithful prayer to a powerful and redeeming Father God. I am a result of his amazing, unexplainable grace. I hope everyone who reads this comment experiences that same grace. 🤍☝🏼
What I find most detestable about high demand religion is the damage they do to people emotionally and spiritually. I also know that my perspective as a Christian not in a “high demand” church may not ring true with those coming out of the “war”. Know that, as much as I am able to understand, these stories hurts my heart for you
Just listening to the bit about Noah's ark. Do the fundamentalist think the ark was like Dr who's tardis. Bigger on the inside than the outside? Th Dinosaurs and the ark is hysterical.
This interview is extremely valuable. I'm raising my kids in the authority of the Bible. I'm making sure I Do NOT teach the same things as this girl was raised. #1 - Yes absolutely, "relationship with Jesus" or "relationship" is found ZERO times,in the Bible. Brothers of Christ, do not - whatsoever - teach it's about a "relationship with Jesus". This relationship thing comes from church - it doesn't come from the Bible whatsoever. A person spends their life studying God's words he wrote. You get to know him through the words. It builds and feeds the inward - not idiotic experiences. Those come later. Want a spiritual rush? Try preaching the gospel (1 Cor 15) to a stranger. A person who is filled with the Spirit is filled with God's words - not charismatic experiences. #2 - do NOT teach that the love of Christ (being saved by grace through faith ) is conditional on obedience, or "continual obedience" or "continual repentance" or "you better not pout, you better not cry" thing; or you better "keep the commandments". As long as you trust in him, you have everlasting life regardless of how you act afterwards. Sin and bad behavior has huge consequences and complications in your life where you learn and stay AWAY from . IFor example, as you get older, you learn to avoid bars and loose women because they can ruin your life and has huge consequences ; it has zero - zero - to do with Jesus accepting you. You'll always be accepted by him through faith. The relationship part comes when our bodies have been redeemed. In the future. #3 - please do not teach a sinners prayer. So stupid. Jesus nor the disciples, and Paul, never taught a sinners prayer. You do not repeat anything. You dont bow your head, repeat, etc. Throw it out. So this interview is to learn to stay away from the Stupid stupid crap she was taught growing up. I'd probably leave too
I couldn't even get 1 hour in and Holly just wore me out. I'm sorry but it's like the engine is revving too fast to match a useful gear. She's all over the place between describing how she experienced things and then putting claims out there that anyone can easily see are blatantly untrue if they only bother to look. For example, she flippantly said that "heaven" is not in the Bible. Is that the "cannabis" talking? There are many translations of "The Bible" - which is a fascinating thing by itself - but I haven't found one yet that doesn't have "heaven" in it. In fact, I just typed it in for the ESV and it listed 463 "verses" that contain it, and it is almost certainly inferred many times when it isn't specifically stated.
I grew up secular and had all the sexualized things happen to me by men out in the world. I kinda want to say that the Christmas are not wrong about being concerned or try to educate their young girls about those things. I can see how the teachings can be twisted or taken to an unhealthy level, but I wish that I had the kind of parents who were more protective of me and talked to me about such things.
@SploinkyDoinkyHole yeah, I get that. Women are not responsible for that but I will say that I wish that I dressed more modestly growing up. I didn't dress all that bad.just Jean shorts amd tank tops, but it still drew all the unwanted attention. I was like 12-17 and from way older men. Women are not responsible for what men behave like but unfortunately we live in a society where men do behave that way and there was no religion about it. When I did go out, I had a friend that was a stripper in my 20s, I'd sometimes go with her, I'd wear jeans amd a pastel violent sweater, the guys would just say to me that I don't look like a woman that belongs there and they had respect for me and let me be. The point being that this is an attitude deeply stuck in our men in our culture not just a cause of religious teachings being abused. I know religious friends who get this amd don't twist the religious teachings and have a healthy outlook on it amd ones that are just awful about it. I just don't think this is a real church teaching,.I think that teachings has been twisted in individuals and spread like wildfire,.weather religious or not.
@@jenniferflower9265 that's victim shaming. 'Women aren't responsible for the way men act, BUT UNFORTUNATELY' is victim shaming. Don't do that. It's a terrible message to send, and it shifts the burden of behaviour from where it belongs. It's gross, please don't. I was assaulted wearing a pair of sweatpants and a hooded sweatshirt. Sexual assault and harassment is all about control, and taking what doesn't belong to you, and nothing to do with attraction. If you know people who look down on sex workers, and it boosts your ego to be told you're better than them, that's not OK.
@@pansprayers hun, I'm not accusing the gal for wearing certain thing, I'm just telling my experience. I'm also not saying that it dosent happen to people wearing covered clothes, I'm just telling my experience. I also don't think I brought it on myself, but I do find my experience ironic.
@@pansprayers I will say as well.though that alot of men do indeed think that way, perhaps I'm perpetrator blaming for how they excuse it in their mind. Also I'd overheard conversations with men about hearing a women who's gotten raped and they said she was asking for ot after they saw their dress. I do not think that way, I'm saying many do and because they do, it dictates their behavior and belief themselves on the issue. I still feel better and safer wearing more clothing.
Thank you for this!!!!!! I relate with this growing up Baptist and then Nondenominational. I had all those questions. Being in south Bible Belt not many even question and if they do….don’t talk about it . Or you are this demon satan worshipper yet you don’t even believe in demons or satan. Weird
So, not Mormon, not scientologist, not Catholic, not Jewish, not evangelical, not Christian, not Baptist...?? What IS the TRUE church then I wonder??! 🤷🤪 Does anybody out there know?
I'm really identifing to this, but in my family, it all from politics. I'm the black sheep because I'm conservative politically. My family doesn't want to know the what or why about my beliefs., even though I want conversation in order to grow and understand.
In the end times, there shall be a great falling away from the truth...funny how the Bible got that prediction right. Wait till the tribulation starts and there is no food, clean water, there is disease, and war, and a new one world government. Then maybe y'all can re-evaluate your disgust of Jesus's word.
Not a typical Christian experience. The fruit of the Spirit is found in the New Testament in Galatians chapter 5. It is contrasted with fleshly behavior. The Bible in the New Testament tells us that whoever believes in Christ will have eternal life. It is a free gift of mercy, there are no works that you need to do to be saved. It’s God’s mercy and grace given to us because of our belief in him. John 3:16 in the New Testament.
I'd say that's your confirmation bias speaking, because it's absolutely the 'typical Christian' experience, regardless of what the Bible teaches. How passive aggressively it's displayed just varies.
The answer to Adam and eves kids amd having other people on earth is that the people who were here are the children of the earth, not gods people. Amd we all know eho is the ruler of earth.😳
“Very often, however, this silly procedure is adopted by people who are not silly, but who, consciously or unconsciously, want to destroy Christianity. Such people put up a version of Christianity suitable for a child of six and make that the object of their attack. When you try to explain the Christian doctrine as it is really held by an instructed adult, they then complain that you are making their heads turn round and that it is all too complicated and that if there really were a God they are sure He would have made ‘religion’ simple, because simplicity is so beautiful, etc. You must be on your guard against these people for they will change their ground every minute and only waste your time. Notice, too, their idea of God ‘making religion simple’; as if ‘religion’ were something God invented, and not His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own nature.” C.S. Lewis, “Mere Christianity.” Sadly, the guest thinks the god she disbelieved in was the God of Bible. However, the God of the Bible (as laid out in Christian doctrine) is far greater in beauty, grace, majesty, and power than anything she could refute with Richard Dawkins/Sam Harris-like reasoning. “A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers-including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower.” C. S. Lewis again. Praying for her return home :)
I’m so happy to see Holly on this podcast! I grew up MEGA at WCCC and my sister worked with Holly in some way and looked up to her. Even more so now.💖🫧
“the Fox News-ification of our parents” WOW this whole episode has been great but that line is the icing on the cake for me! also, i’m sorry but thank you 🥹
I grew up a lot like Holly did but in the Baptist church. I'm sure there's a group of us never Mormons who enjoy watching the Mormon Stories Podcast because what you talk about is very similar to what we experienced.
I'm ex-RLDS (a splinter group of LDS) and jumped ship in my mid-20s in favor of a Baptist church. I've been there another 15 years and now starting to recognize concepts that are still very difficult to believe. It's a weird place to tread water.
As a person who grew up in a Midwest Southern Baptist Church I didn't realize how much I absolutely needed this. Thank you so much!!!
I've been watching MSP for the past couple weeks and it's been helping me unpack a lot of religious trauma. I grew up evangelical, too, and I've really been looking forward to this interview! I can relate to most of the guests, but Holly's story especially resonated with me (for obvious reasons) - especially questioning the all loving father/husband narrative contrasted with the damnation and smite thee God. I'm also in the same space that my family won't engage in religious or political discussions with me unless, I'm agreeing with them. I don't see that ever changing either, but it is immensely helpful to know that I'm not alone in the long process of deconstructing my beliefs and understanding the psychology behind it. You are all amazing people!
"One foot in the grave one foot on a banana peel" is now in my vocabulary forever thank you. Soul winning sounded normal to me too so also grateful to John for pointing out that wasn't obvious to all
Holly and her husband Greg have helped me heal so much through their humor and their insight.
im a nevermo excatholic who has been a listener now for months and this one has really been helpful for me. johns theological questions were really good and honestly helpful to ask myself as i watched. always love all the interviews though
Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. I grew up in the same church as Holly (am same age and was friends with her youngest sister). I found this interview accidentally after going down an internet rabbit hole that began with me searching for a band her middle sister was in when I was in high school. Our stories overlap more than I expected, since I experienced a lot of trauma related to “spiritual warfare,” even though demons etc. weren’t something normally talked about in our congregation. But I (and her youngest sister) witnessed “demonic activity” while on a missions trip in high school. That was the beginning of the end for me, but of course it’s been a long, difficult road, and greatly strained my relationship with my parents.
Thank to the hosts for flying Holly out for this and thanks to Holly for being so open. I deeply appreciate it.
I was raised Evangelical and this is one of the most validating conversations/interviews I have seen. Especially the constant praying and asking Jesus for forgiveness over and over as a child. I was diagnosed with ocd almost 10 years ago so this is incredibly relevant!!
One of the best guests so far . . . .
Wow Holly is really great. As I’m still processing my faith transition from Mormonism I was unsure how relatable and how much this story would resonate with me. But it was so correlated to my and probably most Mormon stories in so many ways. Thanks John for bringing Holly on and Holly for sharing your story. You are so lovely and a wonderful person. Def going to check out your podcast.
Holly’s experience growing up evangelical is so much like mine, although my deconstruction was much longer and more gradual. The similar-but-just-removed-enough feeling that John and Jen experienced is what I regularly get from Mormon Stories and other exmo content. Even the very specific Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon debunking helps me wrap my mind and heart around fact checking the teachings I grew up with in the evangelical Christian church.
This is amazing. I grew up Evangelical and desperately wanted to be Mormon like my friends. What a beautiful talk; I love seeing the commonalities that we experience in all these different sects. ❤
i believe the commonalities in Holly's story and the stories I've heard on MSP are even more universal. I was not raised in a church and I'm relating to a lot of what I'm hearing in this episode (meaning I'm shedding a lot of tears), especially related to family disconnect, parents not wanting to hear the truth, feeling unworthy, and even fear of God. i am a United Methodist clergywoman today (retired), having found my way into the faith on my own. i have heard these kinds of stories from parishioners who grew up in the church. i have done what I can to help others unlearn what they learned as children in the church, all the while working to unlearn what I learned as a child outside the faith.
As an adult, I, too have gained a lot of the knowledge Holly has about the history of the Christian faith. I have learned NT Greek. And I am sad that many (most?) Christians don't have basic background info about the faith.
Today at age 72, I'm still inlearning those childhood lessons, while trying to spritually navigate a major split in the denomination I chose to be a part of 41 years ago and while questionng my reasons for staying in the church. it's hard work.
I grew up in an evangelical southern baptist home and the conversation about codependency is eerily identical to my experience. so many things Holly is talking about relate to the way I grew up. I love hearing someone else talk about these things
Wow, amazing episode. So many parallels to growing up in Mormonism. I love the way Holly expresses her thoughts.
This interview 🤯 I'm relating so much to this. The scrupulosity is real for many, including myself. John once again, brilliant interview! Thank you Holly. Looking forward to listening to part 2.
Holly Laurent rocks! So insightful and raw. 2 hours in and so interesting to see evangelical Christianity through her eyes and to see The differences and intersections of Mormonism through her reactions!
Really good one. I’ve been deconverting for about 4 years and she just brought up a lot of tiny little details that don’t get mentioned a lot
I loved this podcast. It opened my mind to that purity culture that we grow up with. I was part of that too. For many years I had so much guilt regarding sex. Thank you guys for having these podcast. I am learning so much.
I didn’t grow up in an evangelical household by any means, I’m from the uk and my parents were traditional mainstream Church of England, but I identified with a a lot of the discussions about purity culture, guilt and shame and as a consequence ‘learning to lie’ as an adolescent to cover up my normal, healthy teen behaviour. A very enlightening conversation, thank you so much Holly for being so open and sharing your experience. And thanks John and Jen for the thoughtful and insightful analysis.
Thank you for this interview. Holly, I learned some new things along with you. Your truth telling is powerful.
I can relate to this. I don't feel like I live in the same reality as my parents and it's painful. I am not a bad person but if they knew all of me they would think I am going to hell, if I don't change. This interview is really touching, thank you so much for being this vunerable!
We have come a long way from the days when atheist were shy to admit there disbelief in mystical superstitions from long ago. Wow! I thought these days would never get here. All high control businesses (religions) use the same tactics in one form or another and you are doing valuable service for us in religion, politics and business! You do not have to be stupid to be deceived, but it helps.
This is a welcome interview. I came from the evangelical Christian tradition. It mirrors a lot of the alleged problems people on this channel find with Mormonism.
Wow. Quite emotional to see people working it all out in a conversation.
Yay exited to hear y’all talk about other religions! I am ex catholic
Thank you so much from an ex-evangelical who is now in Williamsburg, VA!
Like others in these comments, I found Mormon Stories during this time of my life when I find my faith deconstructing. As I watched/ listened I kept thinking how very similar LDS traditions of faith were
with my Baptist upbringing. Yes, there are big differences as well but the similarities are big. I feel I have learned to think a lot more critically about what/why I believe the things I choose.
What a great episode. Holly is such a wonderful and touching storyteller. It's amazing to hear the similarities between stories of people from different religious backgrounds.
I grew up in Baptist fundamentalism. Women never wore pants and most secular music was condemned even the CCM. It is like its own world. I remember as a boy the older pastor son would rebel and listen "Love and Rockets" and INXS on the radio since his dad told him it was devil's music. He also would light up a cigarette since he was told "they were evil and encouraged worldliness."
I went through that phase where I was told my records were all the devil's music. My regret is I listened and got rid of the records. I always say I had experienced the three churches to avoid: Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, and Methodist.
A huge gift!
Love this….so informative….as former RLDS would love some interviews like this on the other religious movements,religions,…that came out of Joseph Smiths movement!
Me too! Are you in Missouri? I've been trying to organize a podcast of former RLDS and Restoration folks.
@@Latter-Day-Aint no…I am actually in Canada 🇨🇦
@@shannonfisher6872 We love our neighbors to the north :)
Oh gosh, Holly. I just got to the part about your wedding. I'm so sorry you and your husband had to go through that. What a selfish & cruel thing for your dad to do.
This was a great episode
Replacement "Father" at 29:06. I think that is common among LDS and evangelical Christians. Many of the members (particularly women) did not have great fathers growing up. So a church tells you Jesus loves you. And then you are told God loves you unconditionally. That is what attracts many people to a church.
Wow John what you said about religious people taking it so seriously vs those who don’t in the Noah’s ark section shocked me
John-soul winning/evangelizing is similar to mission work. It might have helped to have someone who understands both groups to help you and your audience see the similarities.
Oh Holly and I have been ships in the night. Also grew up evangelical, went to Columbia college and lived down the block from second city in undergrad
I've watched this episode a while back and neded to step back a bit.
I come from Germany and my church was very evangelical like and had many Toronto blessing symptoms during the worship.
I can see soooooooooooo many parallels between Holly and me. And I think I might have scrupulosity.
So I spoke to a psychologist and she connected me with somebody who specialises in sects and cults. So in a few days we (my psychologist and me) will meet the specialist. I hope there will be more healing soon...
This interview helped me to understand me better and to finaly speak with somebody about fears and believes and maybe my religious trauma...
Prayers for seizures pretty much sums up my experience at Christian shows (that I had to literally sneak out to, because they played music with a beat - another 'fun' sect of Fundamental weird I grew up with) as a teenager. Found out in my 20's that Depakote and later carbamazapine were much more effective. Who knew?
My goodness really enjoyable and conversation I was also raised in a super duper believing family...the wedding story could feel her embarrassment and the the rest. Thanks for this made me remember and feel that same inner world of pain and management that only those raised in religion can....but in a good way
this has been like my own personal therapy session!
Some amazing insights into how purity culture and fear control women.
3:25
Por eso amo estos episodios !!!
“TU NO LE PIDES A TU ESPOSA QUE TE OBEDEZCA PORQUE TE AMA!!!”
😅😀😃
THANK YOU FOR THIS 😭
There is a good documentary I would recommend on an Evangelical Christian Megachurch. It is called "Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed." It is on UA-cam in three parts.
I'm curious if this changed your opinion of their music; some of my favorite praise/worship genre is by Hillsong. The musicians on stage seem genuine but the documentary made it seem like it's all about the Benjamins. Many churches are dropping them to disassociate from Hillsong.
@@Latter-Day-Aint I have always liked their music since I attended a service in Sydney years ago. I also saw them when Hillsong came to Toronto. I even have some of the CDs. I know a lot of churches are banning the Hillsong music now from worship service. The lyrics are not directly taken from passages of the Bible like hymns are. I like the music. It could be classified as inspirational music as well as Christian. Many of the musicians don't get paid well and are away from family months on end. It will be interesting to see what happens with the organization and if ends up going the way of non-defunct PTL club.
Stunning.
How’s living that the “Book of Mormon is perfect” working out for LDS?
When your grandpa would convince someone to say the the sinners prayer was he done looking after their spiritual well being after that or was he concerned about them attending church and generally living lives that reflect the standards that Jesus taught?
"Fruits of the Spirit" and other Christian jargon and argot at 22:56.This is exactly the type of language used among born again or evangelical Christians. In the field of Sociology argot is a term used to describe linguistic devices groups use to define themselves. It is funny how evangelicals have an argot just like Mormons do. In a way it is indicative of a religious subculture. Part of the purpose that argot serves is to keep outsiders from knowing all your business. On the other hand it cements members within a church as part of a community with insider knowledge that others don't have.
I'm a ex-RLDS who now attends a southern Baptist church. They definitely push the fruits of the spirit; there's a song and everything. When she started listing them off, it was hard to not sing along. I'm not on either side of this but it's interesting to think of it from another perspective.
Perhaps the Brontosauruses fit because the arc was bigger on the inside.
Sexual purity at 1:27:27. In evangelical circles they have pledges young women sign to stay pure until marriage. They also have Christian universities with a purity culture similar to BYU. This all is well and good until couples marry and the sexual dysfunction begins.
this could be my story almost to a tee except I was an Assembly of God Preachers kid born in the 60s.
I'm only half way through this ridiculously long podcast, and I'm so surprised by Holly's conversation about her family. I actually knew them and went to the same church, my brother Steve was friends with her brother Chris and I was friends with her sisters. Her parents were so loving and her grandfather who pastored our church was the kindest man ever. He definitely walked out the fruits of the spirit just as she said.
The ironic thing about her story is, her parents were loving and committed to one another and she seems to have become an atheist, whereas my Dad who also attended the church, with us his family and even taught Sunday school sometimes, divorced my loving and devoted mother to marry his mistress. Talk about a shocker, I was 7 years old and didn't understand what the hell was going on. I also rebelled as a teenager/young adult but something crazy happened...
I walked out on my husband and one year old daughter at 19 to live a reckless and selfish life. I, like Holly, wanted to do what felt good and live in the moment. I never questioned God's existence though, I just basically gave him the finger.
My family prayed and prayed for me. But I continued to dishonor them, my husband, daughter and like I said, God. I got pregnant and was basically homeless and still had no remorse. Hard-hearted. Then God woke me up in the dead of night on the floor of my best friend's parents house where I was temporarily crashing and he took what I can only explain as a veil off my eyes. I saw all the pain and heartache I had been causing, I felt all the shame. I was completely and utterly broken and remorseful. And then...in an instant, I felt the overwhelming power of God's love and grace wash over me. He pulled me out of the pit I had crawled into, no, he met me in that pit and he saved me. He redeemed my marriage, my relationship with my family and my life. This year, my husband and I celebrated our 29th wedding anniversary. I am a result of faithful prayer to a powerful and redeeming Father God. I am a result of his amazing, unexplainable grace. I hope everyone who reads this comment experiences that same grace. 🤍☝🏼
This looks interesting!
What I find most detestable about high demand religion is the damage they do to people emotionally and spiritually. I also know that my perspective as a Christian not in a “high demand” church may not ring true with those coming out of the “war”. Know that, as much as I am able to understand, these stories hurts my heart for you
Wow! Just wow
Why does John keep saying "while you were sinning". There's just something about certain comments.
where is the rest of the video? who is she lip-synching?
In traditional Christianity, ie not evangelical, the Holy Spirit was the comforter Jesus left for his followers after he went up to God.
Just listening to the bit about Noah's ark. Do the fundamentalist think the ark was like Dr who's tardis. Bigger on the inside than the outside? Th Dinosaurs and the ark is hysterical.
❤
This interview is extremely valuable.
I'm raising my kids in the authority of the Bible. I'm making sure I Do NOT teach the same things as this girl was raised.
#1 - Yes absolutely, "relationship with Jesus" or "relationship" is found ZERO times,in the Bible. Brothers of Christ, do not - whatsoever - teach it's about a "relationship with Jesus". This relationship thing comes from church - it doesn't come from the Bible whatsoever. A person spends their life studying God's words he wrote. You get to know him through the words. It builds and feeds the inward - not idiotic experiences. Those come later. Want a spiritual rush? Try preaching the gospel (1 Cor 15) to a stranger. A person who is filled with the Spirit is filled with God's words - not charismatic experiences.
#2 - do NOT teach that the love of Christ (being saved by grace through faith ) is conditional on obedience, or "continual obedience" or "continual repentance" or "you better not pout, you better not cry" thing; or you better "keep the commandments". As long as you trust in him, you have everlasting life regardless of how you act afterwards. Sin and bad behavior has huge consequences and complications in your life where you learn and stay AWAY from . IFor example, as you get older, you learn to avoid bars and loose women because they can ruin your life and has huge consequences ; it has zero - zero - to do with Jesus accepting you. You'll always be accepted by him through faith. The relationship part comes when our bodies have been redeemed. In the future.
#3 - please do not teach a sinners prayer. So stupid. Jesus nor the disciples, and Paul, never taught a sinners prayer. You do not repeat anything. You dont bow your head, repeat, etc. Throw it out.
So this interview is to learn to stay away from the Stupid stupid crap she was taught growing up. I'd probably leave too
I couldn't even get 1 hour in and Holly just wore me out. I'm sorry but it's like the engine is revving too fast to match a useful gear. She's all over the place between describing how she experienced things and then putting claims out there that anyone can easily see are blatantly untrue if they only bother to look. For example, she flippantly said that "heaven" is not in the Bible. Is that the "cannabis" talking? There are many translations of "The Bible" - which is a fascinating thing by itself - but I haven't found one yet that doesn't have "heaven" in it. In fact, I just typed it in for the ESV and it listed 463 "verses" that contain it, and it is almost certainly inferred many times when it isn't specifically stated.
There was less sin back then, so it was ok that the brothers and sisters had kids
I grew up secular and had all the sexualized things happen to me by men out in the world. I kinda want to say that the Christmas are not wrong about being concerned or try to educate their young girls about those things. I can see how the teachings can be twisted or taken to an unhealthy level, but I wish that I had the kind of parents who were more protective of me and talked to me about such things.
@SploinkyDoinkyHole yeah, I get that. Women are not responsible for that but I will say that I wish that I dressed more modestly growing up. I didn't dress all that bad.just Jean shorts amd tank tops, but it still drew all the unwanted attention. I was like 12-17 and from way older men. Women are not responsible for what men behave like but unfortunately we live in a society where men do behave that way and there was no religion about it. When I did go out, I had a friend that was a stripper in my 20s, I'd sometimes go with her, I'd wear jeans amd a pastel violent sweater, the guys would just say to me that I don't look like a woman that belongs there and they had respect for me and let me be. The point being that this is an attitude deeply stuck in our men in our culture not just a cause of religious teachings being abused. I know religious friends who get this amd don't twist the religious teachings and have a healthy outlook on it amd ones that are just awful about it. I just don't think this is a real church teaching,.I think that teachings has been twisted in individuals and spread like wildfire,.weather religious or not.
@@jenniferflower9265 that's victim shaming. 'Women aren't responsible for the way men act, BUT UNFORTUNATELY' is victim shaming. Don't do that. It's a terrible message to send, and it shifts the burden of behaviour from where it belongs. It's gross, please don't. I was assaulted wearing a pair of sweatpants and a hooded sweatshirt. Sexual assault and harassment is all about control, and taking what doesn't belong to you, and nothing to do with attraction. If you know people who look down on sex workers, and it boosts your ego to be told you're better than them, that's not OK.
@@pansprayers hun, I'm not accusing the gal for wearing certain thing, I'm just telling my experience. I'm also not saying that it dosent happen to people wearing covered clothes, I'm just telling my experience. I also don't think I brought it on myself, but I do find my experience ironic.
@@pansprayers I will say as well.though that alot of men do indeed think that way, perhaps I'm perpetrator blaming for how they excuse it in their mind. Also I'd overheard conversations with men about hearing a women who's gotten raped and they said she was asking for ot after they saw their dress. I do not think that way, I'm saying many do and because they do, it dictates their behavior and belief themselves on the issue. I still feel better and safer wearing more clothing.
Thank you for this!!!!!! I relate with this growing up Baptist and then Nondenominational. I had all those questions. Being in south Bible Belt not many even question and if they do….don’t talk about it . Or you are this demon satan worshipper yet you don’t even believe in demons or satan. Weird
John, you need a clearer explanation of the Trinity
Silly but important podcast. It's a God thing
Holly never understood completely the gospel. What a shame.
So, not Mormon, not scientologist, not Catholic, not Jewish, not evangelical, not Christian, not Baptist...?? What IS the TRUE church then I wonder??! 🤷🤪 Does anybody out there know?
I'm really identifing to this, but in my family, it all from politics. I'm the black sheep because I'm conservative politically. My family doesn't want to know the what or why about my beliefs., even though I want conversation in order to grow and understand.
In the end times, there shall be a great falling away from the truth...funny how the Bible got that prediction right. Wait till the tribulation starts and there is no food, clean water, there is disease, and war, and a new one world government. Then maybe y'all can re-evaluate your disgust of Jesus's word.
Not a typical Christian experience. The fruit of the Spirit is found in the New Testament in Galatians chapter 5. It is contrasted with fleshly behavior. The Bible in the New Testament tells us that whoever believes in Christ will have eternal life. It is a free gift of mercy, there are no works that you need to do to be saved. It’s God’s mercy and grace given to us because of our belief in him. John 3:16 in the New Testament.
I'd say that's your confirmation bias speaking, because it's absolutely the 'typical Christian' experience, regardless of what the Bible teaches. How passive aggressively it's displayed just varies.
The answer to Adam and eves kids amd having other people on earth is that the people who were here are the children of the earth, not gods people. Amd we all know eho is the ruler of earth.😳
Or, Adam and Eve were an allegory. Because they literally are.
@@jcrook5904 they claim Satan rules the earth.
@@pansprayers I know, im.just relaying the literal explanations.
“Very often, however, this silly procedure is adopted by people who are not silly, but who, consciously or unconsciously, want to destroy Christianity.
Such people put up a version of Christianity suitable for a child of six and make that the object of their attack.
When you try to explain the Christian doctrine as it is really held by an instructed adult, they then complain that you are making their heads turn round and that it is all too complicated and that if there really were a God they are sure He would have made ‘religion’ simple, because simplicity is so beautiful, etc.
You must be on your guard against these people for they will change their ground every minute and only waste your time.
Notice, too, their idea of God ‘making religion simple’; as if ‘religion’ were something God invented, and not His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own nature.”
C.S. Lewis, “Mere Christianity.”
Sadly, the guest thinks the god she disbelieved in was the God of Bible. However, the God of the Bible (as laid out in Christian doctrine) is far greater in beauty, grace, majesty, and power than anything she could refute with Richard Dawkins/Sam Harris-like reasoning.
“A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers-including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower.”
C. S. Lewis again.
Praying for her return home :)
and I am out here praying for y'all to actually live the way of Jesus through love and compassion vs. spreading the gospel of white supremacy and hate
I’m so happy to see Holly on this podcast! I grew up MEGA at WCCC and my sister worked with Holly in some way and looked up to her. Even more so now.💖🫧
“the Fox News-ification of our parents” WOW this whole episode has been great but that line is the icing on the cake for me! also, i’m sorry but thank you 🥹