Great video! I want to support Peter's claim that the old Avon Pro bucket boats track better than self bailers. In the early 90's I would spend a season on the Zambezi in bucket Pros, and then transition to self bailing Pros for the Bio Bio in Chile. The bucket boats track way better and it was always an adjustment to the way the self bailers would drift instead of track. At first I hated the self bailers, but of course came to love them with more time in them. But they do not track like the buckets and it isn't just glorifying them to say so.
@@GearGarageTV If I were to run the Zambezi again, and if I didn't have to do the bailing (!!), sure! The Zambezi is pool/drop with huge rapids but even bigger pools, so there is time to bail (I still wouldn't want to do it myself). Seriously though, I'm never going back to bucket boats. I just wanted to point out they do handle differently. Self-bailer's ability to drain opens up so many rivers that would be much more dangerous in a swamped boat. I'll take the trade off to pretty good tracking and boats that drain any day. I'm also used to the way they handle now. And I like dry feet.
Great info, Ran middle fork at 2' kept the floor hard and didn't have problems getting stuck. It seemed to track ok. Going down Deso going to let some air out of floor and see how it tracks
Kinda late to the discussion, but everything Peter said rang very true to me. I've rowed a friend's Maravia 16' down the Grand twice and quickly figured out a partially deflated floor made the boat much easier to handle. I was lucky enough to have a hard floor in the cockpit so the squishiness didn't affect my ability to stand up and not feel like I was in a bouncy house. Peter is a gem and wealth of knowledge, thanks for getting this out there.
That tightly inflated Drop stitch floor from Maravia works really well with defensive rafting. Back Ferrys.. Upstream moves. Technical boating..Wonderful for the center frame... It just kind of skates across the top of the current in stead of digging in like a better tracking boat would...
Great conversation.. my experience with bucket boats back in the day was they tracked well due to the weight of water we had taken on. The common perception at the time was the floor of the boat was in solid contact with the river. Difficult to pivot, make moves, catch eddies, however where you pointed these pigs they went. These we're the old Avons and Rikens, late 80's, early 90's on California classics like the Merced, Toulumne, Kings, and American Rivers.. We tended to stay on wave trains, sub holes, and not auto surf as easily to due to the weight and momentum. The self bailers are, of course, a great development that allows us to run steeper, bigger, and more consequential stuff. The question of tracking is an interesting one. I always seem to prefer a firm floor in high and low water. Funny oar boat story, we get to Peru, all set to run the Colca river after securing a pretty decent super puma style, fairly modern boat, NRS frame, and the obligatory plastic oars, no spare. Pretty stoked on the set up, though the webbing they provided was strips of old bicycle inter tubes! Needless to say I was surprised, however the rig help up to the rigors of a busy and fun class 4-5 South American multi day classic! Gotta love it
I’ve got an old 17’ rogue inflatables cataraft with zero rocker. It tracks like it’s in ice skates. Point it where you want to go and push. It really requires me to look ahead and make moves early. It is a very different style of rowing verses my Avon pro (SB).
One other factor to consider, the length to width ratio of a boat will also effect tracking. A longer, narrower boat has faster hull speed than a shorter wider boat (or a boat of the same length but wider width). The faster the boat, the more noticeable the tracking effect is. I rowed a Super Puma (narrow for its length) down the Middle Fork the Flathead last year and couldn't believe how well it tracked. It felt like it had an outboard motor on it, and went right where you pointed it.
In Utah here we have the San Juan river and the last day is total flat water and people are always getting stuck on sand bars. I just bought a Maravia today, so I hope I get that permit and can try it with the floor fully inflated to see how well it does.
So what's the result, did the fully inflated DS floor help get through the boney stuff?? I just got a new boat with a drop stitch floor....It's totally opposite of what I've been taught, I was told to deflate in the low water to help slither over the rocks. 🤷♂️
Man so much knowledge getting passed down. I run a 18 ft cataraft/Pro Advantage tubes hypalon. The later part of the conversation around 22 minutes where he talks about pressure building up and the way the sweep boats operate is very much the way I run my boat in my head but his explanation makes it make more sense to me you know.
First, awesome series on the whole. Specific to this discussion, I run an AIRE 14' tributary (rowing frame, gear boat) and the comment regarding sliding off the shoulders of wave trains rang very true for me (have run the Rogue, middle and main Salmon etc). I am excited to try a semi-deflated floor. Seems another key point that wasn't immediately clear was in order to track, boat needs to be moving faster than speed of river. I have yet to wrap my head around the argument of the effects of gradient and generating pressure on the down stream tube. Seems like at best you would be flowing the same speed as the river, never faster: how are you traveling faster than the river given the same "gravitational pull"? Again, fantastic series, keep it up.
I find that boats "track" much better when going faster than the current. To do that you need to be pushing or pulling on the oars downstream. It doesn't make intuitive sense to me that boats would track when going the same speed as the current but after running a sweep boat down the Middle Fork for a few seasons I do know that it does happen.
I just returned from 5 days on the Green (Gates of Lodore) in my Aire 130D after viewing this Gear Garage. I experimented with deflating the floor and found a sweet spot where it still had air but significantly improving the tracking. Thanks Zach and Peter for the great tracking discussion!
Great video! I want to support Peter's claim that the old Avon Pro bucket boats track better than self bailers. In the early 90's I would spend a season on the Zambezi in bucket Pros, and then transition to self bailing Pros for the Bio Bio in Chile. The bucket boats track way better and it was always an adjustment to the way the self bailers would drift instead of track. At first I hated the self bailers, but of course came to love them with more time in them. But they do not track like the buckets and it isn't just glorifying them to say so.
So is your next raft a bucket boat?
@@GearGarageTV If I were to run the Zambezi again, and if I didn't have to do the bailing (!!), sure! The Zambezi is pool/drop with huge rapids but even bigger pools, so there is time to bail (I still wouldn't want to do it myself). Seriously though, I'm never going back to bucket boats. I just wanted to point out they do handle differently. Self-bailer's ability to drain opens up so many rivers that would be much more dangerous in a swamped boat. I'll take the trade off to pretty good tracking and boats that drain any day. I'm also used to the way they handle now. And I like dry feet.
SUCH a cooool discussion!! Really helps demystify tracking, and I am envious of his ‘skiing’ skills down rapids! ; p
Great info,
Ran middle fork at 2' kept the floor hard and didn't have problems getting stuck. It seemed to track ok. Going down Deso going to let some air out of floor and see how it tracks
Kinda late to the discussion, but everything Peter said rang very true to me. I've rowed a friend's Maravia 16' down the Grand twice and quickly figured out a partially deflated floor made the boat much easier to handle. I was lucky enough to have a hard floor in the cockpit so the squishiness didn't affect my ability to stand up and not feel like I was in a bouncy house. Peter is a gem and wealth of knowledge, thanks for getting this out there.
Hey Rob, how the hell are ya!
@@big1dog23 David, great to hear from you! Look me up on Facebook or Instagram and send me a message
That tightly inflated Drop stitch floor from Maravia works really well with defensive rafting. Back Ferrys.. Upstream moves. Technical boating..Wonderful for the center frame... It just kind of skates across the top of the current in stead of digging in like a better tracking boat would...
Great conversation.. my experience with bucket boats back in the day was they tracked well due to the weight of water we had taken on. The common perception at the time was the floor of the boat was in solid contact with the river. Difficult to pivot, make moves, catch eddies, however where you pointed these pigs they went. These we're the old Avons and Rikens, late 80's, early 90's on California classics like the Merced, Toulumne, Kings, and American Rivers.. We tended to stay on wave trains, sub holes, and not auto surf as easily to due to the weight and momentum. The self bailers are, of course, a great development that allows us to run steeper, bigger, and more consequential stuff. The question of tracking is an interesting one. I always seem to prefer a firm floor in high and low water. Funny oar boat story, we get to Peru, all set to run the Colca river after securing a pretty decent super puma style, fairly modern boat, NRS frame, and the obligatory plastic oars, no spare. Pretty stoked on the set up, though the webbing they provided was strips of old bicycle inter tubes! Needless to say I was surprised, however the rig help up to the rigors of a busy and fun class 4-5 South American multi day classic! Gotta love it
22 feet maravia where called chubascos..i used to row them in 1990 on grand canyon
I’ve got an old 17’ rogue inflatables cataraft with zero rocker. It tracks like it’s in ice skates. Point it where you want to go and push. It really requires me to look ahead and make moves early. It is a very different style of rowing verses my Avon pro (SB).
Being a maravia guy this discussion will help me know how to fully benifiet from the manufacturers technology.
One other factor to consider, the length to width ratio of a boat will also effect tracking. A longer, narrower boat has faster hull speed than a shorter wider boat (or a boat of the same length but wider width). The faster the boat, the more noticeable the tracking effect is. I rowed a Super Puma (narrow for its length) down the Middle Fork the Flathead last year and couldn't believe how well it tracked. It felt like it had an outboard motor on it, and went right where you pointed it.
In Utah here we have the San Juan river and the last day is total flat water and people are always getting stuck on sand bars. I just bought a Maravia today, so I hope I get that permit and can try it with the floor fully inflated to see how well it does.
So what's the result, did the fully inflated DS floor help get through the boney stuff?? I just got a new boat with a drop stitch floor....It's totally opposite of what I've been taught, I was told to deflate in the low water to help slither over the rocks. 🤷♂️
Great conversation!
Im pretty sure Peter is actually just an elderly Zach giving himself advise from the future.
Man so much knowledge getting passed down. I run a 18 ft cataraft/Pro Advantage tubes hypalon. The later part of the conversation around 22 minutes where he talks about pressure building up and the way the sweep boats operate is very much the way I run my boat in my head but his explanation makes it make more sense to me you know.
Hyside hold the floors up just a bit to provide great tracking
Good stuff
Great vid.
First, awesome series on the whole. Specific to this discussion, I run an AIRE 14' tributary (rowing frame, gear boat) and the comment regarding sliding off the shoulders of wave trains rang very true for me (have run the Rogue, middle and main Salmon etc). I am excited to try a semi-deflated floor. Seems another key point that wasn't immediately clear was in order to track, boat needs to be moving faster than speed of river. I have yet to wrap my head around the argument of the effects of gradient and generating pressure on the down stream tube. Seems like at best you would be flowing the same speed as the river, never faster: how are you traveling faster than the river given the same "gravitational pull"? Again, fantastic series, keep it up.
Thank you for the nice note!
I find that boats "track" much better when going faster than the current. To do that you need to be pushing or pulling on the oars downstream. It doesn't make intuitive sense to me that boats would track when going the same speed as the current but after running a sweep boat down the Middle Fork for a few seasons I do know that it does happen.
More Peter Fox talks please!!!!!!!!
Interesting discussion, I assume Aire raft floors with water in them would track better or just get pushed around more?
Unfortunately I haven't paddled AIRE boats enough to know the difference
I just returned from 5 days on the Green (Gates of Lodore) in my Aire 130D after viewing this Gear Garage. I experimented with deflating the floor and found a sweet spot where it still had air but significantly improving the tracking. Thanks Zach and Peter for the great tracking discussion!
Did you paddle and AIRE or a Maravia?
Rowed an Aire 130D
I have a sabertooth and I love how it handles but the one thing it doesn't do is track well.
Good point!
Awesome info 🕉️
The wind in this video was slightly unpleasant. Otherwise very informative