Are Autistic People Narcissists? (READ DESCRIPTION) ( Webinar on Psychosomatic Medicine, Oct 2020)
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2020
- Speaker in the Webinar on Psychosomatic Medicine, Pharmacovigilance, and Clinical Trials and Drug Safety, October 2020
My topic: "Narcissism and Autism".
There are three problems with raising awareness and educating people about Autism Spectrum Disorders:
1. We don't know the aetiology of autism (what causes it) and whether the brain abnormalities often observed in autistic patients cause it, are caused by it, or are merely correlated (effectuated by a third, common factor);
2. Autism is a family of disorders which have little in common with each other. Some autistic persons are high-functioning and accomplished, others self-harm, are hypersensitive to stimuli, and noncommumicative; and
3. The long-discredited, "refrigerator mother" theory blamed emotionally unavailable, "dead", or "frigid" mothers for the pathogenesis of autism in their children. This deterred parents from seeking help.
The ignorance, taboos, stigma, biases, prejudices, and lack of evidence-based theories and practices that pervade mental health apply even more so to autism.
Speaker in other international conferences on psychology, psychiatry, mental health, and neuroscience:
www.narcissistic-abuse.com/med...
My youngest son is on the autism spectrum. He’ll be 13 in December. He’s very caring but extremely literal. If someone asks him a question, he’ll give an answer he believes is true even if it could hurt the person’s feelings. Only because it’s what he knows is truth but not to intentionally hurt the person. When verbally attacked by his peers, his go to answer is, “We are friends but you might be having a bad day.” They can’t reach him emotionally to hurt him. He believes all people are good they just have bad days or they are sad too long. Another quote from Jon- “Mean people are sad inside. If you’re not sad then you don’t want others to be sad.”
My son is like this also x
I only wish my 2 autistic sons had an emotional force field
You know, if you were a true parent you wouldn't talk shit about your son behind his back and reveal his secrets to strangers. Just because you're his mom doesn't make you right.
@@ms.playboyinternational393
His secrets? Your answer suggests I should hide his disabilities and they should be secrets. All of what you said is wrong. Troll along.
@@jenniehettrick4204 sorry I was in a bad mood when I said that. Do you love your son tho, even tho he has a disability?
Explains so much. I'm in 30's and autistic, had a girlfriend who is a narcissist, she repeatedly claimed I was antisocial. I had to repeatedly tell her I was asocial. My main description of her was loquacious. I hate being asocial. Can't get a normal girlfriend because I get lost in the social dynamics. I can get to the point of attracting someone but not beyond that. I just have absolutely no idea how to act as a boyfriend.
I have been trying to explain this for years.
It's the signals that mess things up. Now there is also the thoughts that I have which go too far, like 'if this works out we could ...' and I start getting over excited or in a flap. There is also the 'who are you? what are you going to do for me?' part when I realise if you chat up women you must be full of compliments. But I don't like lying and often only compliment when I mean it, it seems to me the people who lie get by fine. I see men saying things to women that I know are complete lies but the girls suck it up like it's the truth, 5 times broken relationship due to cheating and those are the men women want.
But then there are the signals... I don't understand them. I don't understand the cues at all AT ALL.
I am in my late thirties now. I still don't understand the signals.
I guess my type is not suited to women and I will likely die single, but I know the cold hearted a holes will sleep with lots of women.
I did have a girlfriend once, she kissed the man who beat me up when I was still a child and told me she had the mad hots for him. I tried to kill myself 3 times. She insisted it never happened and tried to clean up the situation to make it look like nothing, rather than being honest. She then seduced me and got back with me and refused to tell me what was wrong, it was something about not touching or holding her right in bed, not being dangerous enough or something. I tried to kill myself again as not only the confusion with others I realised the woman I loved loved others more and according to her I could never be man enough to satisfy her in bed.
And... she knew I was autistic. She then referred to narcissism as meaning a person without emotions so we broke up soon after in a blaze of fire.
Love confuses me more than anything.. I don't believe her when she kisses me, rather I need her to prove systematically that the hypothesis we love each other. Looks like I would end up marrying a scientist or none.🐣
2 Types of Love:
Direct - Close, personal, intimate, direct.
Indirect - Doing a task for your partner. I.E.- Getting them flowers, cleaning the house, etc…
If something has happened to you to cause Direct contact with other to alarm you, or if you were born with a so-called “disorder” that “prevents” intimacy, there is your answer.
Doing one will make you better at the other.
@@049bisherv3Remember men and women usually both have something the other lacks. Love is hard work and honesty and love are both equally important, and if neither party is willing to come together in that then they aren't ready for romance. I get it though, I am also autistic and it has been incredibly hard balancing my self, lessons in life aren't meant to be easy, but overcoming is always worth it. We aren't perfect but keep trying.
Interesting talk but I’d take issue with a couple points:
. Aspies often make very good listeners esp if it’s say a lecture on their special interest. A lifetime of failed interactions often result in us studying conversations we hear, trying to analyse how they work. Also because their utterances are often ignored/come out wrong they often prefer listening to talking. Problem they then often don’t know how to respond properly eg someone gives a long talk about a personal problem - do you a offer practical advice, just considerate, hug them, give a similar example from your own life to show you ‘get it’ etc
. On language, aspies often make good writers, and prefer this to taking as they have time work out what to write and revise it until it’s correct.
As an autistic woman, I can say you have described me, perfectly!
I will talk incessantly until the other person's eyes have glazed over with boredom! Sometimes, I know I'm doing it, but I can't stop until I have explained myself to a point I am satisfied. I have been accused of interrupting and high jacking conversation. I just can't master the nuances of social reciprocity.
Apart from work, family, and a few life long friends that I see every couple of months, I am completely reclusive. I do prefer the calm of solidarity but I also believe it's because of an intense fear of ridicule and rejection.
From the outside I can see why someone could misconstrue that as a schizoid/covert narc.
@divorcedme It's also common in ADHD. I think it's less about empathy and sensitivity, and more about the struggle to know when it's our turn to speak. In autistic brains, the parts of the brain that process language develop differently. In severe cases, some people can't speak at all but for me and you, it's subtle.
I'm 45, no grandkids yet, but still trying to work out how my brain works. Along with everyone else's :)
I do this lol!
Perhaps we should meet up for a chat? Lol.
Fellow autistic here, don't worry i'm not really hitting on you or anything weird!
I just FULLY understand what you mean.
I isolate too, HERE I AM. Isolated. I just can't stand all the hatred. Yeah, they will mock and laugh at those less fortunate. This idea people respect disabilities only goes for visible disabilities.
Every teacher in school took turns to mock me. Aswell as the kids.
I remember the day I was at school and some kids found out if they grabbed me and slapped me on the head repeatedly I would have a meltdown and start stymying, and freaking out, the kids found it funny, the teachers? Well I remember looking behind me and seeing 3 teachers just ignoring it. I left school with a 50% attendance due to this. It never ended though, it still continues today, the same adults who were heartless as kids grow up as heartless adults, not always but often.
I wasn't diagnosed until 30 years of age with Aspergers. I always thought it was a me problem before diagnosis, and the narcissistic defence mechanism you speak of makes perfect sense; it is a way to process the world as an adult unknowing of your diagnosis.
Great video, thank you.
I was groomed by a narcissist at age 15 (he was 24). We had three children together, 2 of whom are on the autism spectrum. I have often wondered if I am also on the spectrum. Typically, I have only one friend that I trust and can talk to about anything. The first time I felt like I fit in somewhere was in a group for women with aspergers. I’ve kind of moved on past the need for the label, but the information from this video put a lot into perspective. I limit social interaction and constrict my environment because I easily get overstimulated by people and places. If I am not mindful, I easily end up irritable and snappy after too much stimulation. It is exhausting to be around people because I feel more than just what they are saying. It’s like a demand on my nervous system and I can only take so much. Even when I enjoy spending time with someone, I often have to take a day or two to retreat and recharge.
Anyway, this video makes me feel more like the aspergers diagnosis does fit me. I do know where I have built up narcissistic defenses and yes they fall away very easily because they aren’t really a part of who I am.
I would be interested to hear about some more of your personality traits and what made you comfortable around the autistic women’s group. I always identified as an indigo. An empath, who gets irritated if people are around me for too long. I can stay in my house for days at a time alone. I’m highly creative, and my mind never shuts off. I definitely march to the beat of my own drum. I have some very close friends who I would do anything for, but I need to put distance between myself and them also because I need a people detox after interacting because I feel everything they feel and it’s heavy. So much stimulation. I have witnessed myself having a few narcissistic tendencies, but it is either after I have been hanging out with people like that ( which I limit at all costs) or acting from my ego to create a wall of self defense after I’ve been hurt.
As you talk about your narcisstic husband.. i guess the rational and analyzing personality of narcissists and aspergers could be an overlapping issue as well. Problem is that aspergers are often much more clueless than narcissists being in danger to be manipulated and instrumentalized by them even more than neurotypical victims. I would compare it with the relation between narcissist and psychopath. Within this relation the narcisstic is more clueless and needy thus highly susceptible for manioulation and the psychopath will always be the „winner“.
@@francoisnel5253 I agree about the terminology to segregate, make people feel special, and or try to market certain ideas, etc. In pursuit of
“ knowing myself” and never feeling like I fit in, I have researched a multitude of ideas to see what resonated. I was wanting to know why she felt at home in the autistic women’s group so I could see if I identified with being on the autistic scale. The interesting thing is that I can identify with certain traits of almost every personality disorder. So either I’m bat shit crazy, or I pick up on energies that would cause me to act in certain ways that the medical community has a “term” for. That too I find interesting because as I’ve done the internal work to purge a ton of unhealed trauma, I’ve become very balanced and firm in my boundaries, no longer feeling the need to “ react”, and definitely no longer from a place of previous wounding.
@@crackededge9351 I do believe I am ordinary, not sure as to why you would think otherwise. Having felt like I did not fit with others my whole life because I feel so deeply, has been really hard at times. That doesn’t make me special, if anything I have felt like an outcast. Perhaps I should have used the word psychic? I believe everyone has the ability to tap into that trait, it’s just how willing and tuned in you are. As for having narcissistic / empath traits, I believe we all do ... it’s just what side you are willing to act from- ego or for the collective whole. Perhaps you might be interested in Dr. Judith Orloff’s books on being an empath as she identifies as one. As a psychiatrist I would think she knows a thing or two. I wouldn’t say she is a narcissist for trying to find where she felt comfortable in defining one’s personality traits
@@francoisnel5253 Just for fun, you may want to look into Dr. Judith Orloff’s books on being an Empath. She is a a psychiatrist. She also identifies with these traits. There is something to this regardless of the label.
This is the best comparison/explanation I have heard so far.
I am Autistic.
Recently shared this channel with a friend married to a narcissist. Both of us also have autistic children, and I am divorced from a narcissist, and we were discussing some parallels the other day!
Some of the "disabilities" are similar, as well as the need for certain behavioral modification tactics, it's true.
That being said there IS such a VAST difference!! Thank you for putting this out there...
Fascinating. I have 2 teens with ASD. My younger son w ASD level 1, developed generalized anxiety in response to social rejection/stresses. No narcissistic defenses whatsoever though. My older son, same deal but on autism spectrum with lower functioning. Numerous bullying and awkward situations for both at school etc. It’s gut wrenching.
@Whitegirl keep your head up. I completely understand what you went through and I have seen things you describe firsthand. I also believe MY mother may have NPD based on what I’m learning. My upbringing was hell on earth. Not surprising but she demonstrated some nasty, hurtful behaviors towards my boys the last time we tried to visit her. Called them morons if you can believe that coming out of a grandmother’s mouth... It’s not just society, families can be insensitive and shitty as well... We’re never going back. Done trying... Every day is a fight indeed. When it comes to my children I don’t play. I protect them in every way that I wasn’t protected...I know it was probably tough Whitegirl333, but you made the right decision to get out of a toxic place. Stay strong 🦄 ✨ 💕
@@falaqmoore4656 As someone who’s dealt with horrific, and I mean bloody sick horror movie stuff, I really understand your words here. Thank you for sharing
Thank you, for your extremely informative material. You’re the only expert who I’ve encountered making such a clear distinction between autism and NPD.
I was still believing that my ex, who often used to call himself as “autistic” was indeed an autistic person, and that all those unfortunate malignant attitudes and behavior that’s arose after the idealization phase and until the discard were only a byproduct of it. He tends to focus so intensely in a topic, person or activity for a certain time and later just becoming so bored of it that he would jump to another thing. I really saw some possible Asperger’s Syndrome. Now I see that there was definitely some malignant narcissism on top of whichever degree of autism. He’s eloquent, charming, outgoing and funny- when he wants. An autistic would most likely find that impossible.
Thanks again.
Narcissists light up when they sense narcissistic supply.
An autistic person will only light up with someone they trust (very rare) and will prefer to talk about their special interest.
Autistic people don’t attempt to charm others...
I was diagnosed with borderline 4 times, ASPD was mentioned at 15 and diagnosed at 19, then at 11 they mentioned Bipolar when I was living at a diagnostic center for children for a couple of years.
I was evaluated and treated from 8 to 27 by numerous of psychologists and specialists, and they all had their new theory what was wrong with me, but each new theory contradicted the former one.
Now I am 28, and received the accurate diagnosis of Asperger’s a couple of months ago. But it feels incomplete. It IS incomplete.
I search for answer as I fit the label of autism in women, but also sociopathy.
My question would be, when an autistic child grows up in an abusive and unstable home, with a narcissistic parent and an absent father. Lots of malicious stepfathers (overt narcs, covert narcs, sociopaths and alcoholics), and then the autistic child gets ripped out of the home (or so it felt)
It was willingly done to the child as the mother gave the child to protective services, due to how abnormal the child behaved in relation to school and it’s peers. (Autism was not ever considered to be the reason for the abnormal behaviors).
The ultimate abandonment occurred. Also the right environment to breed the typical maladaptive behaviors found in sociopathy as well as bpd.
Why is there no more information on this? As if autistic humans cannot become liars, manipulative, deceitful, vindictive, abusive and malicious the same way NTs can, if they grow up in the environment that would create such maladaptive behaviors in the first place?
Shipped off into the world, like a package sent in the mailbox back and forth, back and forth between all kinds of horrific youth facilities and treatment centers. There was no other way for me as a child and a teenager to survive without shutting my emotions off to some extent.
So I became the sociopathic girl, using drugs, criminal behaviors, going to prison, stealing from everyone, lying, violent, and manipulating everyone to not only survive, but also to obtain what I wanted from others. Sadism became a thirst that grew in me, and I toyed with men, disposed of them without a care in the world when they bored me or became clingy. I believe with my autism, I even became masterful at this.
Of course at the evaluation the focus was on autism alone, and I would never reveal such things to the specialist. I was there for Asperger’s, and only that. But I am left without a complete picture of myself.
They say autistic humans do not lie, they do not cheat, they do not steal, they do not manipulate, they are pure and innocent all the way through. But I prove that to be wrong just by simply existing.
Can a woman with autism develop sociopathy, and if so, why is there no more information on this?
I was diagnosed with autism way back, I got rid of some symptoms somehow. My senses are either me being immune to stuff, don't hate or love it, or I'm undersensitive, and need to sensory seek, or more extreme, sensation seek. School years was jumping over desks, getting kicked out of school for some reason I will not name...and other nonsense. I don't identify as a narcissist or a sociopath, but my personality did develop to become flawed, and I can pass as neurotypical, just a lazy neurotypical though with no job lol and a loner, but I'm alone because I pushed people away. Some of it I didn't mean, some of it I did. I did get labeled with oppositional defiant disorder way back which makes sense, but when I got older, my behavior past that label, as I ended up doing more extreme stuff.
There can in fact be comorbidity. An autistic person can have traits of personality disorders, there is little to suggest otherwise and anyone who thinks different is inherently inaccurate and ignorant. Period. I have ASD (level 1, non Aspergers) with all traits of SzPD which include alexithymia, blunted affect, and cognitive and emotional empathy issues. I enjoy solidarity, I have no desire for friends etc just like a schizoid. I choose isolation and dont make friends and it just so happens that I have a limited ability to do so. Lifes gift to me I suppose. And no ASD and SzPD can not be diagnosed comorbid, though the way my personality was built shows that I have all traits of SzPD for a reason apart from ASD.
An autistic person may seem like an alien, completely different from anyone else in day to day life however the fact is they are human, they do develop personalities, and it is common sense to accept that those personalities are built much like a NT individuals in the sense of the order of events that creates those personalities. If you have a parent with traits of NPD, you may develop defenses and habits that are built to exist with NPD.
For me, this was a divorced Narcissistic mother of two who pushed onto her children her own dreams and used her children as vessels for her own vanity and self-image.
I was put into boy scouts, 4-H, sports, and made to commit to award winning activities regardless of my desires. (For the sake of getting the love of the parent I will follow the rules and do as they say, commit to their list of things I have to do to be loved) There was no room for my own interests, therefore even though I am autistic the traits of the schizoid developed to repel the damage of not being allowed to have my own interests, dreams, and personality. Anything that was individual to me was dismissed as irrelevant, so now everything is dismissed as irrelevant on an emotional level. Having emotion was a sin, so now mine are shallow and numb. Everything is conditional to our experiences as we grow up, thinking that autism as something that explains away the damage done to cause personality disorders is something I could see a neurotypical individual doing. As I said, ignorance.
The hardest part of this idea is the fact that it isn't NT fault for the way they go thinking about ASD and personality disorders. There is a wide range of traits and every individual is built different, every personality is unique. In order to narrow the range of diversity, people have to build a system of thought that identifies traits from the outside. Doing so creates inherent flaws as not only do NT people not understand the experience, but they too often get stuck attempting to fix things that cant be fixed while overshadowing other issues. You can't know everything about the other persons thinking most times. So on and so forth, its such a wide area of information that lacking in it is only logical.
@@broarmy2000000 Thank you so much for your thorough comment! It is spot on and validates my theory as well. Thank you!
Great original comment in terms of challenging a very simplistic either or definition/understanding of autism. I know someone or even more than one person, now that I think about it in more depth, that what you wrote applies to (not every detail of course) and one person I know was diagnosed with all 3 (autism, narcissism and borderline) which seems very accurate in regard to that person. Anyway; I agree with your understanding why would a non-neuro-typical person/a person with autism always be this innocent lamb and not be able to develop narcissism and/or sociopathy/ASPD. Of course both can be present/develop depending on circumstances, individual predisposition etc. I’m also a little surprised why not more doctors talk about both being present in some/many individual just like neuro-typical people can develop certain personality disorders - so can autistic people
@@broarmy2000000wow your comment is very well expressed and makes total sense. I wish you could describe your inner feelings and blunted affect etc that you mentioned in more detail to understand better how you experience relationships etc. The person I know but distanced myself from shows or probably feels no empathy regardless of what happens to the close people in that person’s life. Even when that person’s own mother and other ‘loved’ ones passed that person showed no emotion. Other people always mentioned how cold this person is, it really seems like they just don’t feel anyone&: pain or for anyone. I can analyze people quite accurately and I truly always wondered why this person was that way because the rest of the person’s family is very different. And yes the person was also socially akward but yet would be around people and go out and party quite a lot
The plot thickens for my story . I thought my spouse was NPD but then he was told he has ASD( diagnosed by a PhD 6 hours of testing) . He has lied to so many therapists about his behavior. In couples he agrees that he is behaving horribly but won't do any of the work the therapist gives him. He wants me to be his Mommy, now that she is dead I'm getting all that rage he has felt , she was a pilar of the community but her own minister berated his congregation for letting her ruin peoples lives and black mailing people. Well I did not do any of that nor did I abuse my husband when he was a child. I just don't care at this point if it's ASD or NPD its just as horrible for the spouse either way. Oh except if its ASD the spouse is supposed to be the parent.
If he is behaving horribly and lying, chances are he might not be autistic. People with ASD usually have difficulty with lying - I know because I am autistic too. Autism does not cause abusive behavior nor is it an excuse for it. I'm sorry to hear about your situation by the way. I hope things improve for you soon. It is also a possibility that he somehow received the wrong diagnosis by manipulating the psychiatrist who evaluated him into thinking that he doesn't understand his own behavior. It sounds to me like he wanted to find a justification or excuse for being a jerk and decided to use an autism diagnosis to make you believe that he can't help himself and perhaps even wanted to generate pity. It is really terrible that someone would do this - to claim that he has a disability when he doesn't just so he can get away with things.
Another thing, too: some psychiatrists are not very competent. Believe it or not, many of them are ignorant about things one would expect them to know. And did he really get diagnosed with ASD? Is there a document that says he has it or did he maybe make this all up?
And while it is possible to be autistic and a narcissist simultaneously, there is no relationship between the two. Autism does not cause NPD and they are two very different disorders despite the similarities in certain behaviors.
And while some behaviors are similar, the reasons for them are different. So for instance, if an autistic person says or does something that upsets someone else, it is often due to ignorance or a misunderstanding about what behavior is appropriate and how people react to things. They usually feel bad when they hurt others' feelings.
With a narcissist, though, they know that what they're doing is hurtful but don't care.
Real full-blown NPD is rare in autistic people, but it can happen. One major difference between narcissists and autistic people in general is that the former has no conscience but the latter does.
I am so sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds familiar to me. I can’t go into details but it is just eerily familiar.
@@_anyasaltykova_ I feel you a 100%. Doesn’t do anything but wear me down and keeps me stressed out to the max and I’m tired of being his mama🙄😡🙄
ASD people usually hate lying and make poor liars so more like to be NPF
It makes me wonder if some narcissists pretend to be autistic, as a way to hide and excuse their bad behavior? I've seen people on TikTok and UA-cam who sure seem a lot like narcissists and are socially skilled, but call themselves autistic. I also wonder if a person could be both. Thoughts?
There are fake "self diagnosed" autistic people, and an autistic person can have a personality disorder - just like anyone else.
Highly interesting aspects. Brilliant work! I think it“s a combination out of their innate neurological disposition and the reactive adaptions to the environmental reactions to that disposition from parents, school mates like rejection, mobbing etc (as you said). The way neurotypical people react to aspergers or just their recurring problems getting along with the neurotypical world can cause internalized feelings of hatred and rage ending up in those comorbidities like narcissm and borderline for example.
Furthermore I think that also the discrepancy between significant skills/high intelligence on one hand and the failure to apply those skills due to a total failure regarding to social interactions could evoke lots of ego harming frustration leading to narcisstic patterns in thinking and behaviour like the creation af a grandiose self full of contempt towards others.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I wish researchers would do a study to track down as many undiagnosed autistic adults as possible, so they could try and figure out their true number. I think there are tons of undiagnosed autistic adults out there who will probably never know the real reason for why they are the way they are. We need to put this debate about whether or not autism is on the rise, to bed, once and for all. But unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
I'm not super comfortable with the idea of autistic adults being tracked down. There is currently too much of a stigma, it can make it difficult to qualify for life insurance, etc.
Thanks a lot for this video! I finally know (because of your other videos as well) that I probably dealt with a covert narc. He claimed to have autism, but he can not. He is to charming, always wants to be the center of attention (in a negative way, like I am the victim, omg i am so anxious blabla) he uses a lot of words as you stated and lies a lot. He constantly lied. He once told me he cracked a lot of jokes with girls at his work, when in fact he claims to have social anxiety. The only thing that made him seem like aspergers was that he seemed cold and withdrawn sometimes (but at the same time he could pretend to be super emotional) and that he had special interests but yeah he switched them often. He always wanted to be seen as very intellegent and became agressive when I started sighing after he told me about stuff he knew. He would not hold hour long conversation cause he would never dive deep into the topic. He would quickly learn stuff and then present his knowledge to make him seem intellegent. He was also not at all sensitive to stimuli.
Outstanding explanation.
Dr. vaknin, If I find myself in an unfortunate event that I must quarantine myself away for a few weeks, I know what I will be doing. I cannot watch enough. I am definitely not one that is watching halfway through.... There is so much and I appreciate your knowledge , reading recommendations, your studies, and of course your humor. I am beginning to wonder if Narcissistic traits or NPD is more the norm. Is no contact no longer something that should be highly recommended? Is our world heading into a society that NPD is closer to the majority? Trust me
The only reason I came to this query was due to you sharing your knowledge. I am sure with continued consumption I will continue to question. Thank you for opening my mind.
And for females with autism. Our special interets very often become our partner to the point of fixation.
For males, their partner is not their new special interest when they enter romantic relationships.
This podcast is so valuable. It provides answers.
@@francoisnel5253 thank you for your input.
@@mardan2362 it makes sense yes. I read an entire forum with former spouses and partners of male autistics who were describing their worst nightmares. Almost like the forums with narcissist victims. Many of them had considered their autistic man to be a narcissist due to the similarities in how they felt while being in a relationship with them.
Usually the autistic man will adjust their behaviors if they are explained what to do instead and why it hurts their partner. They need a lot of clarity and openness in order to understand their partner’s perspective, but they are more than willing I would say.
A majority of my autistic friends utterly dedicate themselves to their female partners. Most women do not prioritise honesty, earnestness and dedication etc in their partners. They disdain the awkwardness. They want a charming, social, attractive, successful man. These men are a minority and can pick any woman they want. That's why most "normal" men put a facade on, as women do. They know they are not good enough for what women want, but desire intimacy. "What you see is what you get" does not appeal to women. That's why so many fall for the narcissistic fantasy.
I'm so pleased you did this seminar, my son was diagnosed with pathological demand avoidance type autism.. it took them 2 years to diagnose him as he had some autistic traits but not others. They said he has a higher ability to empathise than children his age not on the spectrum, most of the autistic strategies they put into place for him didnt work.. he's super intelligent, but is very controlling, loves isolation, and does have alot of narcisstic traits and it always made me wonder and probably worry about this as he got older. This seminar has completely enabled me to understand (to a degree) the differences.
Beautiful. I've wondered how connected these 2 diagnostics are and my personal ideas are that the more severe narcissistic behaviors are high function autistic people who have been traumatized in childhood. What do you think?
I'm 25. A long time ago I was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. Also I was diagnosed with autism and oddly enough, never had issues reading body language and faces to my knowledge, and a lot of the symptoms went away in my adulthood like being sensitive to things...and I've become numb and want to be alone in my life. Sometimes when people leave me, I don't care. I wouldn't say I'm a narcissist though. I do want people to be like me, but I wouldn't say I'm better than them. I'm shocked I didn't get diagnosed with a personality disorder of some kind. I may or may not have one. Maybe I'm just mean. A lot of this is deliberate, and I had good friendships and relationships in the past, they never thought I was socially awkward at all, just a little weird, but cool, and was shocked when I left them.
Muito bom ,good .
When you describe this, it feels so much like me.. I sit here completely alone for a long time and I´m mostly just glad that I found this topic, that I can finally learn more about things I experienced for a long time in the past.
It felt like a little ball that is tossed from one side to the other without understanding which kind of game I´m in. Could this really be the explanation, or at least part of the explanation?
Engaging in special interest groups would be crucial then, right? Yes, and see if there could be some overlap with other people´s interest, so that we might come together one day. Stay away from people who are abusive who only have their own success in mind. It has to be a fit on different levels, so that it´s not only surviving.
I recently dated a 40 year old who I think is Narcissistic bc of her constant Manipulation and gaslighting! But know 2 of her kids are Austic, so I'm thinking she might have Asbergers also. It's literal hell being around her. And she has the rage and the temper tantrum episodes where she hits me and says she never did such a thing even when I show her the marks. I don't want to call the cops on her bc she has an autistic child but she needs to learn she needs help. She thinks nothing is wrong with her. I care too much about her to just leave her alone. I know I need too bc she will never change. It's a shitty situation!
How did you manage to help her?
Thankyou yep don't want to fail since very very young. Book smart but utter social failure. Not via lack of trying all skills came so difficult women non b learn to mask its exhaustive. We can be mega verbal I was but my sister was often almost completely non verbal. I've only started to understand the overlay or masking and so confused by out of school misdiagnosis bs. Then they mad at me cos I didn't react to the intervention for obvious reasons. Now I have to go get fixed and trying to get out of abuse is so confusing as you have no idea about cues but if you have areas you do ok in or appear to read or learn eye contact etc its not good when you end up in trouble. I just a full and proper assessment on all of it not guesses then no answers when I ask them to explain in tangible criteria how I fit something that I find isn't that hard asd the kinda sounded like answer does not match actual criteria. I get to a point I can't act agreeable to ppl as it got to point of being given a lot of drugs that made me sick and I'd just end up overstimulated by therapist then sorry can't help you. You don't have bpd but writes it on file as left after years of just dreading the interaction where id have no idea what just happened a lot. Lots of ASD have trauma so interesting video as usually brilliant.
My father was affected by severe NPD, he was very good in reading and analyzing people. Once he said: Every autist is a little trump.
I think he was right to some extent. Aspergers can be very selfcentered and egoistic but i think that is due to there neurological caused incability of tuning with other people. The word „Autism“ comes from greek meaning „self“. In the first instance they are self-centered cause of their neurological disposition, they could develop real narcissists traits in reaction to the consequences (socially, work related, etc) of this disposition.
It is so right what Sam says about the brilliant capability of narcissists to socially adapt. They are very good in reading people whereas cognitive empathy is THE biggest deficit of an asperger affected person. Narcissists can blend in very well like high functional sociopaths.
Like Sam says, narcissists can become very socially, charming, kind, caring as soon as they get the thing they need to live like air: narcisstic supply. But it“s just like a deal. As soon as you confirm my false self I will treat you kind. The slightest criticism will change the game. And you are seen as enemy who has to be shred into peaces. Whereas the meltdowns of an aspergers are often due to being overloaded. It“s true that they are not antisocial but they can bottle up lots of frustration, contempt and jealousy in the course of being rejected and and experiencing a huge discrepancy between intellectual skills and professional success.
I need to know more about what happens when someone with autism or narcissism receives a major career rejection at mid-life. Which of your books would address that best, or which should be read first. Asking for a friend...
Oh my gosh! This is so crazy! Is that why I interrupt, I cannot tell if people are joking, yes I go off in six hour my life and people pony ID and dad home I don’t think so, and people think it supposed to tolerate that more than anything I just want them to like I isolate myself more and more and you’re right I hurt myself and take blame first But I stopped physically hurting myself and just started isolating my head is like a prison cell. I knew it I knew I was not trying to be bad like other people told me thank you doctor. Maybe this is why I would rather be in a closet reading a book. People constantly misunderstand me, and I seem to be fun to exploit but I can never tell. It is quite painful too. I remember being five And so ashamed but not knowing why. I am always on the losing end of every fight, and I hate fighting. I always knew I was not bad
Phenomenoligically they are the same. Etiologically they are not the same.
Good point.
Monomaniacle.
This is very interesting. I watch every video of yours I come across. My Narcissist abusive ex is the father of my now 11 year old son who was diagnosed with Autism at 4 years old. Recently also diagnosed with ADHD and Tourette’s syndrome too (motor tics usually to hit me but very remorseful and gets very upset and highly anxious because of it. Doesn’t want to come anywhere near me in fear that he will hurt mummy). I find a lot of the traits my son has similar to my ex. The ex use to get on all fours and bang his head when I told him I wanted to leave and cry his eyes out usually returning to the same violent nasty behaviours almost immediately. He has no contact with my son and never really bothered but used his photos to get sympathy to obtain narc supply. It has been 10 years but he still finds me somehow and never a month has passed that he hasn’t contacted me. Never ever to ask about his son, almost as though my son doesn’t exist but very rude naughty sexual fantasies. Repeating old habits of ours together and an obsessions with breasts. He starts begging for breast pictures and if I tell him to go away and leave me alone! He gets verbally abusive and nasty, laughing and mocking me. Then two weeks later he’s at it again, sweet, reminding of how passionate we once were and just repeating everything in very detail of how things were sexually. I have yet to find a video on this of yours. Why such an obsession? He has married a 17 year old backhome in Pakistan and has a child with her but doesn’t really care at all about the consequences. Almost psychotic if not absolute psychotic. I would love for you to do a video on this Dr Sam Vaknin. I refer others to your video as I find you the best source on the internet. Please point me towards such videos if you have already made some about this area. Thank you and absolutely love your videos.
Possibility for co morbidity with ASD and other personality disorders? Thank you
Insufficient data.
Of course. You can have a personality disorder and autism.
You are born with autism, and whatever happens to you after that can definitely develop other mental health conditions. Autism does not make someone’s mind a sealed deal that cannot develop other conditions. We just aren’t found to be interesting enough to do more research on.
Autistic individuals are supposedly pure and innocent. Childlike. Naive. Never capable of lying, and highly intelligent (some of us).
So the world wants to maintain that narrow view of us, but believe you me, this is not the case for some of us. We have half our truth in ASD. But we know there is something more going on.
I knew this man named Ryan. A man who had been diagnosed with ASD, and he was very certain to have ASPD as well. Brutal man he was with a lot of criminal behaviors, and highly intelligent.
We connected, and it was like I was conversing with myself. However, he was reluctant to get himself evaluated for ASPD, due to all the stigma that comes along with it. It does not benefit him.
This was the case for me too. I kept quite about my maladaptive behaviors that I know are unrelated to ASD, while I underwent the evaluation for the entire year. I did this because I know that if I get a personality disorder in my medical journal, it will be judged. Authorities will judge. Any need for treatment in the future, they will say “nope. That case is too complex for us to touch” (has happened when I was misdiagnosed in the past), and I will be judged rather than better understood.
So it does not benefit us. And we hide. But we still exist.
Brilliant, thank you. I can see very clearly my ex 59 year old undiagnosed Aspergers boyfriend described here to a T, especially in contrast to narcissistic behaviours and motivations.
I really wish I can get tested for ASD in the future! The severe CPTSD and general anxiety due to the twisted constellation my mother and brother put on me is one thing, but that I´m so unable to adapt to these friendmaking and building social structures processes is ... I don´t know how to call this, it often feels plain stupid. Blind to understand how these things work and completely exhausted to try and try again to fit in somewhere, to look for friends somewhere and don´t find them.
Wish I could simply sit somewhere, painting a picture and the people come to me and like me and stay, and one could simply become my boyfriend. XD Maybe if I wish this hard enough.... but magical thinking hasn´t worked out for my mother either, so much I had to very painfully understand. And she is much more efficient in life than me.
At least I understood that there is no deity and there is no justness in life. Yeah, wow, I wish I had understood some other nicer things, some that would give me more hope and safety. XD
Unless you live in an area that you might receive disability supports with a diagnosis, I'd advise considering if seeking a diagnosis would be worth it. It makes obtaining life and disability insurance impossible. Some clinics will refuse to treat you. Your diagnosis could be held against you in a divorce or custody battle. It could ruin your chances of a military career or become a foster parent if that's something you'd want.
Sam, do you believe that autism can be developed in a child being raised by a narcissist? There is huge overlap in characteristics of ASD & CPTSD.
Autism is most likely a somewhat hereditary brain abnormality. It has nothing to do with upbringing or parenting styles.
How do you best deal with a partner with undiagnosed ASD, but who has narcissistic defenses? Like you said you should treat a pure narcissist? So with no contact etc? He has left the relationship just like a narcissist, and acquired a new partner. But there is probably a risk that he will return..
I've been through something similar. This video has really helped clarify this and people's comments. At least it all helps with understanding.
I feel bad because I ended things by calling them a narc, when really I'm certain it's ASD with narcissist defences.
I have three children with special needs including my son who is in a wheelchair with severe disabilities and my two daughters who are both autistic. I myself also have autism and my mother is a covert malignant narcissist with possibly much more in the mix. I'm still learning and trying to get past the hurt she has inflicted upon us all.
By any chance were all your children vaccinated?
Is the outcome of children of narcissist & autistics the same...narcissistic?
This very thing is happening to my teenage son right now. His psychiatrist has diagnosed him with narcissism, but I believe it's asperger's. He has ADHD with impulsivity, depression and anxiety. I first noticed the differences when he was 3,but because his father who is a physician denied my reports, I couldn't get him evaluated. Now I'm in court to have it done.
This is a very interesting video for me and heres why . I was recently discarded by a female narcissist after 4 years and she did many many horrible things to me
She has 3 sons with autism ..2 are non verbal and non toilet trained and the other is a bit higher level
I wonder if there is a connection between the female narcissist I dealt with and autism
Well if all of her children are on the spectrum and she behaves in this way's it's very possible that she is on the spectrum as well. Autism often shows very different in females than in males therefore they never get diagnosed or often times misdiagnosed which is a huge problem and usually takes a toll on the mental health. Also people on the spectrum are more prone to have cptsd/ ptsd. Maybe have look into female autistic masking
I thought Grunya Efimovna Sukhareva (had to copy spelling from Google) first described autism.
You are right. But though one of her articles was published in German, she remained unknown outside the USSR.
Thank you. I tried to get my daughter diagnosed from age 8-18 with ASD. They said she didn’t meet the criteria then as soon as she went to adult services, EUPD. So frustrating. I and my sons are all autistic!
Can I ask how you see asd stronger than eupd in your daughter?
Currently in the understanding of my own head. Much appreciated
No autistics are not narcissists. This is one lf many old & disproven myths.
Shucks 🫠 life is starting to make way more sense