Brother, let me just say that I really appreciate your content. It is refreshing to listen to a level-headed player addressing issues that are so frequently misconstrued. That and the central premise of "starting a conversation" that I think is generally found in your POV. We got to be dialectical about these things, I think, constructive. And you've been as inviting a creator as I've been able to find in this platform. Thank you and keep going!
My issues are: 1. It's not fun to push. Also there's now no rewards for pushing passed 10 except rating. This means people leave keys at the first sign of problem, because there's nothing needed and no reason to stay to the end which conditions people to leave if say a wipe happens in +14. Even if it's at the start of the dungeon they're gone. It also means people are a lot more hostile because the only thing there is to do is to get rating and if you fail there's no rating, so there's no redeeming quality at all. You used to get an extra loot drop and before that you got scaling and other stuff. When you give up on a 14 that means you're not making progress because you're not getting the experience of having completed a +14 dungeon. You have to magically get it perfect or you just won't ever get to see the last boss of a push key, because you're pugging like me (most of the time) so it's just not worth doing. 2. Hostility and apathy for reasons listed in 1. 3. Going back to 1 but just to hit again there's no reward. Nobody cares about your title. I'm sorry to say it for those of us that have gotten it and are likely to get it atp nobody really cares. You're lucky if anyone even recognizes your title as meaning anything but one of a billion titles in the game, nobody cares. Maybe this season or next season someone will care, right, but lets say 2 expansions from now, nobody is gonna know what it is and nobody cares really. The cosmetic fx from ksh are easily more interesting and more valuable. Do you have any idea how many people go "that's really cool," when they see my df s2 H tier colors on DK (red/bdk colors) or my df s2 pvp dk colors (chrome with white light) with the KSH cosmetics on them? They say THAT'S COOL. Cause it looks like the tier but it's breathing a blood colored essence out of the pauldrons with more lights and stuff. THAT'S cool. Most of the tier sets this season were such a miss (monk, dk, idk all of em except maybe paladin and priest) so they don't look cool with xtra fx. I didn't even realize i had the option of xtra fx because i don't look at my tier, i put on something else for mog. There's no rewards that benefit progression in the form of gear or bonus crests or anything like that for pushing and there's no cosmetic awards past KSH. Nothing like idk a bonus portal use or "time a +12 and get 2 charges to portals" to refund a bricked portal use. There's ways they can do it without player power but really, let's be honest, player power is the greatest reward and a reward that rewards progress is no better than this. I don't see the problem with it if they made it function like PvP gear where it only affects ilvl IN a keystone dungeon, so we could infinitely scale and push and feel that drip feed of reward but that's not there. 4. The meta is too punishing for most specs. It's easier for any spec to time a 10 in this season than most seasons it was for F tier specs to time a 20 and part of that was getting into groups and part of it was just incredibly unbalanced talents and abilities split between raid and m+ but blizzard kind of fixed this. But if you want to push, this season is far too restrictive on party comp in the .1% range of keys. So you want to do a 14? Lol. My friends tell me "I can't get into 12s it's like an invisible wall, how do you get in?" I tell them "I'm a healer" and they basically go "UGH," and it's true, even tho i'm not a meta healer there's maybe like 200 people in your region per spec that can even time a key over 12 on skill alone and there's not like an infinite abundance of healers for most people to pick from and the community gets smaller as you go up in rating to the point that most of those healers in the top 200 like me play with premades (I don't most of the time) and only pug their low keys really or for clout on stream so the top .1% can be like "oh look i'm pugging it's possible guys," for views. So if a mw monk applies to your +14 you probably don't care about their spec just their rating being so incredibly high and that you probably waited an hour for a healer you don't know to apply anyway. Realistically though if your favorite spec to play isn't meta and you're not a tank, not a healer, and not a spectacular top player, and don't have friends or a guild to push with, then you have to run your own keys and hope they don't brick. Couple this, the attitudes of other players, and the lack of rewards, and you get a recipe for why this season is not fun for the average player. I only pushed as far as I did because my friends stopped playing so then i thought "ok well if I don't have friends to play with then what's left for me to do?" so I started pushing and it was NOT easy. It was not. I've bricked more keys than I timed but only the ones you timed matter. I probably don't play as well as the top 50 of my spec who probably play perfectly but if I ran SV 14 100 times and timed it ONCE, that's more times than 99.99% of the player base. I don't think i'll do a rating push next season if blizzard doesn't impliment some kind of reward for it. I don't for pvp, after I get my pvp I'm done when the rewards run out. And the title wasn't worth the time i wasted pushing keys. Once people have obtained it they'll realize that too. You got the title? Now what? Nothing. You want to do mdi? Well I don't. And I know that so I don't want to bother.
I do agree with everything you said. I haven't pushed mythic plus yet but it is because I am aware of those walls and I am waiting to be on the mindset and ready to pick one class of my alt army and just stick with it. I really like the idea but I am aware of what M+ is. It is something that scales from a fun way of doing dungeons early on to a challenge where you gotta be on your toes and really aware of what awaits inside. People, I think, feel ENTITLED to be invited into higher keys even if they would be a detriment to their team. People feel like they shouldn't play around other's schedule and are fine playing solo and guildless. They want a queue system as a solution and also making the dungeon encounter easier so the variance of bad teammates isn't there anymore. This is even more clear when gear and crests are involved, people don't wanna struggle too much to get the gear they desire so they will ask all the time to keep removing friction that stands in the way of acquiring said gear which I believe is very shortsighted because it is asking for a repeat of what happened to normal difficulty with the addition of the original dungeon finder. Encounters on WoW are the most fun when there is a challenge to overcome with other players and the feedback given about the encounters is never centered about making them more fun, more intuitive, just making them easier so they can be rolled over. Additions like the new swirlies in S2 are GREAT for making the game better, making it more intuitive and clear when something is going to hit! As you said, if they remove a lot of these friction components they will still dislike mythic plus because the gamemode will still have the same problems. The timer, the pushing, the competitiveness and so on. Thanks for opening the conversation, and it is important people approach m+ with clear goals of what they want from the mode, instead of hoping blizzard gives them everything right away.
Really good video btw. I do high keys for personal achievement, like a musician practicing and playing a tough piece of music. People can't expect to not practice playing their "instrument"(spec) and never practice their "piece"(dungeon routes and mechanics) and then "play a concert"(time a high key). Very few professional musicians do it to show off. It's way too much work just for clout. Same goes for high keys. I'm a 2800 tank playing with a static group I made adding people I vibed with in keys over time. It's better to do it this way, usually guild groups are terrible. Took me maybe 2-3 seasons, but I rarely pug now, and only for vault keys and farming crests on alts. All you need to time +12s is a group that plays their specs optimally, have enough dungeon knowledge to use their defensives at the right time, and a clean run where nobody makes stupid mistakes. There is more strain on healers and tanks because their mistakes are more impactful though; as a tank, I can brick a key with a single bad mistake. The meta is irrelevant for anyone not doing bleeding edge keys and people should stop chasing it. The only advantage of playing a meta comp is it's easier to problem-solve by watching top players stream. That's completely useless if you're a pugger.
Hey man, as a long time wow player who felt stressed by not playing high level m+ keys, your content and especially this video delivery is a fresh breath and balm for my gaming soul. Really like your mindset and your delivery is spot on! Thanks for doing this and keep on keeping on!
Really love the quality of the video and I think you make very solid points that the WoW community *needs* to hear rather than *wants* to hear (especially on WoW Twitter, rofl). I recently transitioned from PvP to doing Mythic+ full time and I'm trying to push for my first 3k this season as RSham & Aug Evoker. A lot of what you say reigns true in not just Mythic+ but every aspect of the game - your ability to improve is ultimately determined by the level of commitment you want to put into the game. This game is a time investment when it comes to improving at your class, learning the dungeons & mechanics, and networking within communities to find people to play with at your skill level. Sure, people have the freedom to play what they like, but other players also have the freedom to play with the classes that will give them the best chance of success when trying to time a +12 for instance. I think that the people who fill the niche of players who have the aspirations larger than what they're willing to sacrifice are also the most prone to the "fomo" phenomena. People forget that it's okay to not aspire to be the very best and that it's totally fine to play to the level you want to achieve and then stop. The whole fomo thing could be another rant in itself, but especially with the WoW community, there are a good portion of players who make this game their life rather than having WoW be a game that they play. Solid work man, you're definitely a voice that needs to be heard more in the community and I hope your channel finds great success! I liked and subscribed :)
My brother and I play M+. He tanks I heal. We pug our way to KSM and portals typically. We are working on portals right now. I think class balance has actually been pretty solid this season. My complaints are more about core design choices. Depletion feels awful and out of your control sometimes. (Buggy dungeons, disconnects, overly punishing 1 shots) either getting rid of depletion or keys altogether would help IMO. Players can fail their way or get carried to a decent score and Ilvl then get into an 8 and have no idea about core dungeon mechanics. The game does not do anything to teach these players about what makes a group succeed. I really think a modernized version of proving grounds mixed with a universal design language is needed.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that the game could do a much better job at teaching players about succeeding at the higher end. I imagine that from Blizzard's perspective that is dev hours they aren't willing to spend because the vast majority of players will never step foot in an 8.
This comment is the best one I’ve seen so far. I do agree. I honestly wish they’ try deleting key deplete and see what happens for 2 months, or selectable key level at the pedestal provided you’ve timed the previous lower key lvl.
I saw a suggestion somewhere that if you say time everything at say +5, your key can never deplete below a +5 (unless you talk to Lindormi to do it on purpose). Once you time +6 your new floor is +6 etc. I kinda liked that idea. Thatcand a vote abandon option for keys that you know are dead i.e. you wiped on Mistcaller with 13min left, you know that key is dead, vote abandon (key still depletes if it would normally).
Great video! This is really just the same old example of people wanting all the rewards for none of the effort. It's always the same story people want mythic gear without having to interact with a single person in an MMO. God forbid networking, God forbid joining a guild. I wanna pug everything without coms, not research anything ahead of time and get mythic track gear for it. I honestly have very little sympathy for that type of complaining. M+ ain't perfect right now, but also it recently got revamped and we have dozens of examples of systems getting much better over time so I have no doubt that a patch or two later it's all gonna be fina as usual. Get a guild, form a group, make some friends, push some keys, get some loot. That's how it should be, and that's how it is right now. LFR-andies just can't handle it and it shows. This is an MMO, you're not going to get the full experience without some human interaction
I'm playing hpal since the start of the season, pugging my way to "the highest i Can go before being capped by Gear, skill, or community perception of my spec" . I'm doing my 13's currently, and I'm not capped by gear, nor skill, at least ATM. The issue I find and it's something you dont really mention is : how about people that just wanna play at their best level, which means reaching their limit organically by slowly and steadily grinding the ladder, until they can't pug their way to higher keys (let's say around 14-15). I'm not interested in doing 8's for Gear, nor 10's for vault nor 12 for whatever, I just wanna try and see if I'm skilled enough to complete harder content. In it's current form, the game does not really allow me to do this (deplete system mostly, but community perception for SURE).
That’s a really good point. I’d say you’ve reached the point where you would be better off spending time trying to find a consistent group of people to push 13 and up keys than trying to get into high key groups as a non-meta healer.
@acadiianwow which really means I reached the system's limit for a player such as myself since I dont have that kind of time, I play on a pretty random schedule (life, kids, and stuff). I got around top 0.5% during the last Season I pushed (DF S3), this is when I couldn't climb by just pugging (queues became way too long for my limited playtime) and I feel I reached this threshold sooner this season. I know I should probably switch to tanking but I just wanna heal 😅
I contend that the difficulty curve is too high for the playerbase we should cater to. We want a ton of people to be running +2-6 that’s what we want. Just tons of keys going and lots of people getting invited. Systems like depletion, keys changing, and especially any concept of a timer are contrary to the core way wow players encounter and overcome difficulty. The game should incentivize completion. Timing vs not timing should give the same crests. Drop gilded crests at +6 and myth gear at +7 from vault. Make +11 or something drop actual myth track from the dungeon loot. Now you have midcore players pushing themselves to make it up the difficulty curve and you don’t create these gearing divides. For the expert players give cooler rewards up the chain give a weapon enchant and like a glad mount level thing for top x% of your SPEC not just in general to demote god comping and meta chasing in the 3k io range.
I feel like TGP is the real end of the scale instead of MDI. Maybe I'm biased because I've competed in TGP but MDI is just... not what m+ is for 99% of people. The way you play, prep for, and execute MDI is completely different than a normal key, its basically a completely different game mode. TGP is what everyone is doing, just at the highest possible level.
The problem is Blizzard jams the wide spectrum of goals in one gameplay mode, and tune the gameplay towards so called e sports when it’s just a PvE activity. Michael Jordan does not hate low skill basketball players but they hate poor skilled wow players in Mythic pub. This is totally on Blizzard.
The problem is not having those walls but the height of the wall. There be punishment for failure, sure but it shouldn't be binary 0 or 1. There must be a margin for error which is big enough to give a chance to non-sweatlords and small enough to block the yolo-polo 123 W-gaming players. The problem is the margin is so small that only sweatlords are going forward and the community is crying exactly because this margin being so tiny. On top these when you wipe once you already getting punished cause you died then you have to run back why salting the would by adding death penalty on 7+? When you fail to time a key you already failed 30-35mins that you are not getting back and on top of that your key is depleted? Are they sadistic or are we masochistic? It doesn't follow logic,you fail you get punished its fair but you fail you get deleted is crazy. The whole money esport race world first and mdi tgp should be a secondary thing,the game shouldnt be designed around them otherwise they played shadowlands and most other people didnt. Go on like this and you have to get even more creative with auction house mounts for quick cash grab.
can only say this in my case until they get rid of the timer you will never see me in a M+. I see no point in rushing to the ending and I not saying they barely give you enough time but A timer in general will make people rush though content. there are other better way to make difficulty than having to just go fast
The problem is a lot of people really wanna push keys but they cant or its very fucking hard right now because of how the system works. Think the depletion system, think the death penalty, think the weird scaling jump after 11. So they would have fun if it wasnt such a bad design.
My point in the video is that the wall you are talking about will always exist in an infinite scaling system. If they make the jump from 11 to 12 easier the same players you are talking about will just hit the wall at 13 or 14. You're just delaying the point on which they hit the wall. My point is that people say they want to "push keys" but don't actually want to do what it takes to break through the walls they hit. If you have a 12 key, instead of putting it in the group finder and grabbing a bunch of randoms and slamming your head against it you should instead try to find friends wanting to push with you. Then you can prepare for the key, talk about kick rotations, talk about priority mobs and optimal routing. All that work that happens before the key and most players don't want to do that (including me) and thats ok. Its ok that there is a point in the key scaling that a player can no longer time, or at least isn't willing to put the effort in to time. The depletion system helps avoid "progging" keys. If people already don't want to prepare for keys then do you really think they want to try the first pull of stonevault 30 times before getting it? This also brings up my point that if you don't like doing "farm keys" and only enjoy getting raider io score then you will likely never be truly happy in the game. Its like someone playing league that is only happy when they go up in rank. Eventually you will be placed where you are supposed to and should try to have fun in that elo . The death penalty is encouraging precise play that, again, will come with preparation and skill expression. It rewards people who put in the time and effort to master the dungeon. Yea it sucks when you lose time to a death but it also sucks when a team in football gets a flag for passer interference but its just part of the game. You make a mistake and you get punished, thats what makes something rewarding when you overcome a difficult task. I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinion!
@@acadiianwow 100% true, it's way better with a static group. You learn faster and have a much higher success rate after actually spending 2 hours in a +12. That's where you actually learn the dungeon in and out. Pugging is harmful to your gameplay because you never get that good prog and, most importantly, don't get feedback from 4 other players before, during, and after the key. While it's true there will always be a wall at one point in an infinitely scaling system, the jump from 11 to 12 is more like a jump from 11 to 15. That's a huge wall most people just can't climb without tons of prog, and it feels bad to be stuck at the same level for weeks. With depletion, it means everytime you fail a +12 you have to pump up an 11 again and that's should crushing. You quickly get to a point where you easily 2-chest the 11s but can't time the 12s still and it feels really bad even in a static group. Having 3 charges on keys would alleviate this as you could at least restart a few times without it becoming like a tournament realm.
Pretty sure you need 10s for mythic gear not 8s. I don't think the progression you described is wrong but I think weekly rewards used to feel like the challenge of completing 7s now and it is a lot harder to get to that yolo lets carry some scrubs or joke around with the boys for some weekly chore keys. Normally I'd play 2-3 tanks doing 4 (or more) max reward keys a week and maybe pushing a bit with friends on one of them. While this season I'm just using the 20 year buff to level class to 80 (for the yolos) and doing basically zero keys since I'm not enjoying the state of tanking compared to the last 2 expansion. It just feels bad having no interest in even logging in for more then 20-30 mins day.
Yea I misspoke in the video about the weekly vault loot but I guess I would ask why do you need mythic track loot if your goal is to play 2-3 tanks for fun each week? Hero track gear can be upgraded to 626 which is more than high enough to get all your portals. Also, if doing mythic plus is your only source of myth track loot (meaning you don't mythic raid) than again, why do you need myth track loot? The content you enjoy and want to do doesn't require it.
@@acadiianwow I don't know I guess I'm weird. If I'm playing a gear based game why wouldn't I want to hit gear cap or get as close as possible. No matter how much fun I find the content if I'm going to stop at hero gear which takes a weekend or two I'm going to get bored basically getting nothing for the next 5+ months. I can generally get portals in the first couple of weeks so I'm often sitting in a lot of last seasons gear so I know gearing is fairly meaningless if you are not pushing cutting edge content but it still feels great finishing a characters gear and making farm / fun content feel like a joke over time do to your effects of becoming more powerful.
@@voodoo1069 thats not weird at all. My second most played game is Path of Exile which is exactly as you described, get gear to make thing easier, to farm more gear easier, to kill boss, etc. But in that game there are bosses that I will never kill and drop loot that I will never have. If I want to hit gear cap in that game I would have to either get better at the game and/or spend a significantly more amount of time to achieve that. Because I can't kill the hardest bosses doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the game, I just know that those bosses aren't for me. All that being said I totally agree that tanking doesn't feel as good as it used to and doing the ol' "weekly 15 no leaver" keys are MUCH more difficult now than they were since a +10 this season is much harder than a 15 used to be. The point of my video was to try and explain that it's ok for a game to have content that you either can't or don't want to do.
@acadiianwow I got that and my first post was reply to how I agree with that and personally found the current tuning to be more annoying for the same or less reward conpared to the past so I've just stopped engaging with the content all together.
Tge biggest change is the mythic gatekeeping. We now have 1-6 mythic instead of 1-4 up grade in gear and 90 creat instead if 60 in DF. So 15 slots lets say you only do 10's. Lets assume you get a mythic upgrade every week in exactly the right spot. Technically, you would have to run 112 10's before you got the upgrades to max level which you know is never going to happen because you're never going to get the exact Mythic gear that you need in every slot every week RNG will not permit it. Thought you're talking about crafted gear needing 90 crests after the other 45. You need to upgrade assuming you did it on runecrests instead of gilded crests. They've increased the grind so dramatically that it becomes almost disheartening. Let me give you an example. Dragonflight season 3, My mistweaver monk went from a fresh 70 to 480 ilvl and at the time max level was 489. In 8 days of gameplay. Maybe that's too fast but the opposite what it would be now to do that is going on over a month
You make good points here and I agree that the change in the myth track gear felt unnecessary. Do you feel that your season is complete after achieve your goals (getting AOTC for example) or after you hit gear cap? Because obviously some people can complete their season goals well before they ever get full maxed out gear. And if your goal is gear cap, how many weeks do you think should it take to get there? I go back and forth on my thoughts on the question above. I do enjoy that even now my main can still get upgrades but I don’t like that if I want to play an alt it feels like it’ll take weeks before I can actually do any serious content with him. All that being said, should I be mad that things take a long time? Is it giving more reason to play or just wasting my time? What do you think?
@acadiianwow soooo to be clear I don't play any other games. For me playing wow is like watching TV. I spend much more time playing wow than watching TV and I'm not going to stop either. I don't play the game as a sprint to the finish line, when I'm doing 10's with ease I usually just jump to another class. Aotc/mythic raiding is all about group content and my guildees. That being said I'm still frustrated with their decisions this tier, they short sighted the impact of delves that bleed into mythic plus with players that have heroic gear but no clue on M+ content and the aforementioned gatekeeping
If those things are too much, just do the lower content. I think the sooner we accept that not all content is for us , the better. It frees us to enjoy the game.
I'd Love To See WoW Get A Full On Remake With An Optional Storymode (Don't Get Mad At Me For This @Acadiin) For Example: ESO In ESO The Players Has The Option To Beat A Dungeon While In Queue And They Can Opt Out If They Want Or If The Players Are In Middle Of Main Quest They Can Pause It And Start Another Quest And That's What WoW Needs (I Subbed And Pin And❤️ This Comment Please)
Brother, let me just say that I really appreciate your content.
It is refreshing to listen to a level-headed player addressing issues that are so frequently misconstrued.
That and the central premise of "starting a conversation" that I think is generally found in your POV.
We got to be dialectical about these things, I think, constructive.
And you've been as inviting a creator as I've been able to find in this platform.
Thank you and keep going!
My issues are:
1. It's not fun to push. Also there's now no rewards for pushing passed 10 except rating. This means people leave keys at the first sign of problem, because there's nothing needed and no reason to stay to the end which conditions people to leave if say a wipe happens in +14. Even if it's at the start of the dungeon they're gone. It also means people are a lot more hostile because the only thing there is to do is to get rating and if you fail there's no rating, so there's no redeeming quality at all. You used to get an extra loot drop and before that you got scaling and other stuff. When you give up on a 14 that means you're not making progress because you're not getting the experience of having completed a +14 dungeon. You have to magically get it perfect or you just won't ever get to see the last boss of a push key, because you're pugging like me (most of the time) so it's just not worth doing.
2. Hostility and apathy for reasons listed in 1.
3. Going back to 1 but just to hit again there's no reward. Nobody cares about your title. I'm sorry to say it for those of us that have gotten it and are likely to get it atp nobody really cares. You're lucky if anyone even recognizes your title as meaning anything but one of a billion titles in the game, nobody cares. Maybe this season or next season someone will care, right, but lets say 2 expansions from now, nobody is gonna know what it is and nobody cares really. The cosmetic fx from ksh are easily more interesting and more valuable. Do you have any idea how many people go "that's really cool," when they see my df s2 H tier colors on DK (red/bdk colors) or my df s2 pvp dk colors (chrome with white light) with the KSH cosmetics on them? They say THAT'S COOL. Cause it looks like the tier but it's breathing a blood colored essence out of the pauldrons with more lights and stuff. THAT'S cool. Most of the tier sets this season were such a miss (monk, dk, idk all of em except maybe paladin and priest) so they don't look cool with xtra fx. I didn't even realize i had the option of xtra fx because i don't look at my tier, i put on something else for mog. There's no rewards that benefit progression in the form of gear or bonus crests or anything like that for pushing and there's no cosmetic awards past KSH. Nothing like idk a bonus portal use or "time a +12 and get 2 charges to portals" to refund a bricked portal use. There's ways they can do it without player power but really, let's be honest, player power is the greatest reward and a reward that rewards progress is no better than this. I don't see the problem with it if they made it function like PvP gear where it only affects ilvl IN a keystone dungeon, so we could infinitely scale and push and feel that drip feed of reward but that's not there.
4. The meta is too punishing for most specs. It's easier for any spec to time a 10 in this season than most seasons it was for F tier specs to time a 20 and part of that was getting into groups and part of it was just incredibly unbalanced talents and abilities split between raid and m+ but blizzard kind of fixed this. But if you want to push, this season is far too restrictive on party comp in the .1% range of keys. So you want to do a 14? Lol. My friends tell me "I can't get into 12s it's like an invisible wall, how do you get in?" I tell them "I'm a healer" and they basically go "UGH," and it's true, even tho i'm not a meta healer there's maybe like 200 people in your region per spec that can even time a key over 12 on skill alone and there's not like an infinite abundance of healers for most people to pick from and the community gets smaller as you go up in rating to the point that most of those healers in the top 200 like me play with premades (I don't most of the time) and only pug their low keys really or for clout on stream so the top .1% can be like "oh look i'm pugging it's possible guys," for views. So if a mw monk applies to your +14 you probably don't care about their spec just their rating being so incredibly high and that you probably waited an hour for a healer you don't know to apply anyway. Realistically though if your favorite spec to play isn't meta and you're not a tank, not a healer, and not a spectacular top player, and don't have friends or a guild to push with, then you have to run your own keys and hope they don't brick. Couple this, the attitudes of other players, and the lack of rewards, and you get a recipe for why this season is not fun for the average player. I only pushed as far as I did because my friends stopped playing so then i thought "ok well if I don't have friends to play with then what's left for me to do?" so I started pushing and it was NOT easy. It was not. I've bricked more keys than I timed but only the ones you timed matter. I probably don't play as well as the top 50 of my spec who probably play perfectly but if I ran SV 14 100 times and timed it ONCE, that's more times than 99.99% of the player base.
I don't think i'll do a rating push next season if blizzard doesn't impliment some kind of reward for it. I don't for pvp, after I get my pvp I'm done when the rewards run out. And the title wasn't worth the time i wasted pushing keys. Once people have obtained it they'll realize that too. You got the title? Now what? Nothing. You want to do mdi? Well I don't. And I know that so I don't want to bother.
I do agree with everything you said. I haven't pushed mythic plus yet but it is because I am aware of those walls and I am waiting to be on the mindset and ready to pick one class of my alt army and just stick with it. I really like the idea but I am aware of what M+ is. It is something that scales from a fun way of doing dungeons early on to a challenge where you gotta be on your toes and really aware of what awaits inside.
People, I think, feel ENTITLED to be invited into higher keys even if they would be a detriment to their team. People feel like they shouldn't play around other's schedule and are fine playing solo and guildless. They want a queue system as a solution and also making the dungeon encounter easier so the variance of bad teammates isn't there anymore. This is even more clear when gear and crests are involved, people don't wanna struggle too much to get the gear they desire so they will ask all the time to keep removing friction that stands in the way of acquiring said gear which I believe is very shortsighted because it is asking for a repeat of what happened to normal difficulty with the addition of the original dungeon finder. Encounters on WoW are the most fun when there is a challenge to overcome with other players and the feedback given about the encounters is never centered about making them more fun, more intuitive, just making them easier so they can be rolled over. Additions like the new swirlies in S2 are GREAT for making the game better, making it more intuitive and clear when something is going to hit!
As you said, if they remove a lot of these friction components they will still dislike mythic plus because the gamemode will still have the same problems. The timer, the pushing, the competitiveness and so on.
Thanks for opening the conversation, and it is important people approach m+ with clear goals of what they want from the mode, instead of hoping blizzard gives them everything right away.
Well you need 10s for Mythic Vault Loot. 8 isnt enough.
yea you're completely right. Thank you for pointing that out!
You realize nobody doings 8s. 10s is the minimum for myth track reward….
@Gear1211
You grind 8s for crests. Alot.
I quickly learned that I would never be a fan of balls-to-the-wall speed runs. I stick to low keys and have fun!
my personal cap is +8. Ill try 10, but I'm perfectly happy playing at +8.
do your thing dude!
If you can do +8s on both For and Tyr, you can do +10s!
Really good video btw. I do high keys for personal achievement, like a musician practicing and playing a tough piece of music. People can't expect to not practice playing their "instrument"(spec) and never practice their "piece"(dungeon routes and mechanics) and then "play a concert"(time a high key). Very few professional musicians do it to show off. It's way too much work just for clout. Same goes for high keys.
I'm a 2800 tank playing with a static group I made adding people I vibed with in keys over time. It's better to do it this way, usually guild groups are terrible. Took me maybe 2-3 seasons, but I rarely pug now, and only for vault keys and farming crests on alts.
All you need to time +12s is a group that plays their specs optimally, have enough dungeon knowledge to use their defensives at the right time, and a clean run where nobody makes stupid mistakes. There is more strain on healers and tanks because their mistakes are more impactful though; as a tank, I can brick a key with a single bad mistake.
The meta is irrelevant for anyone not doing bleeding edge keys and people should stop chasing it. The only advantage of playing a meta comp is it's easier to problem-solve by watching top players stream. That's completely useless if you're a pugger.
Hey man, as a long time wow player who felt stressed by not playing high level m+ keys, your content and especially this video delivery is a fresh breath and balm for my gaming soul. Really like your mindset and your delivery is spot on! Thanks for doing this and keep on keeping on!
Thanks for the comment!
Really love the quality of the video and I think you make very solid points that the WoW community *needs* to hear rather than *wants* to hear (especially on WoW Twitter, rofl).
I recently transitioned from PvP to doing Mythic+ full time and I'm trying to push for my first 3k this season as RSham & Aug Evoker. A lot of what you say reigns true in not just Mythic+ but every aspect of the game - your ability to improve is ultimately determined by the level of commitment you want to put into the game. This game is a time investment when it comes to improving at your class, learning the dungeons & mechanics, and networking within communities to find people to play with at your skill level. Sure, people have the freedom to play what they like, but other players also have the freedom to play with the classes that will give them the best chance of success when trying to time a +12 for instance.
I think that the people who fill the niche of players who have the aspirations larger than what they're willing to sacrifice are also the most prone to the "fomo" phenomena. People forget that it's okay to not aspire to be the very best and that it's totally fine to play to the level you want to achieve and then stop. The whole fomo thing could be another rant in itself, but especially with the WoW community, there are a good portion of players who make this game their life rather than having WoW be a game that they play.
Solid work man, you're definitely a voice that needs to be heard more in the community and I hope your channel finds great success! I liked and subscribed :)
thanks for your comment. means a lot
My brother and I play M+. He tanks I heal. We pug our way to KSM and portals typically. We are working on portals right now.
I think class balance has actually been pretty solid this season.
My complaints are more about core design choices.
Depletion feels awful and out of your control sometimes. (Buggy dungeons, disconnects, overly punishing 1 shots) either getting rid of depletion or keys altogether would help IMO.
Players can fail their way or get carried to a decent score and Ilvl then get into an 8 and have no idea about core dungeon mechanics.
The game does not do anything to teach these players about what makes a group succeed. I really think a modernized version of proving grounds mixed with a universal design language is needed.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that the game could do a much better job at teaching players about succeeding at the higher end. I imagine that from Blizzard's perspective that is dev hours they aren't willing to spend because the vast majority of players will never step foot in an 8.
@ you are probably right. However I would be interested to see how much more engagement there would be with M+ with these changes made.
@@poekaz yea I'm always down with trying new things if it means the game is better for more people.
This comment is the best one I’ve seen so far. I do agree. I honestly wish they’ try deleting key deplete and see what happens for 2 months, or selectable key level at the pedestal provided you’ve timed the previous lower key lvl.
I saw a suggestion somewhere that if you say time everything at say +5, your key can never deplete below a +5 (unless you talk to Lindormi to do it on purpose). Once you time +6 your new floor is +6 etc. I kinda liked that idea. Thatcand a vote abandon option for keys that you know are dead i.e. you wiped on Mistcaller with 13min left, you know that key is dead, vote abandon (key still depletes if it would normally).
the problem is the endless crest grind
Great video!
This is really just the same old example of people wanting all the rewards for none of the effort. It's always the same story people want mythic gear without having to interact with a single person in an MMO. God forbid networking, God forbid joining a guild. I wanna pug everything without coms, not research anything ahead of time and get mythic track gear for it. I honestly have very little sympathy for that type of complaining. M+ ain't perfect right now, but also it recently got revamped and we have dozens of examples of systems getting much better over time so I have no doubt that a patch or two later it's all gonna be fina as usual. Get a guild, form a group, make some friends, push some keys, get some loot. That's how it should be, and that's how it is right now. LFR-andies just can't handle it and it shows. This is an MMO, you're not going to get the full experience without some human interaction
I'm playing hpal since the start of the season, pugging my way to "the highest i Can go before being capped by Gear, skill, or community perception of my spec" . I'm doing my 13's currently, and I'm not capped by gear, nor skill, at least ATM. The issue I find and it's something you dont really mention is : how about people that just wanna play at their best level, which means reaching their limit organically by slowly and steadily grinding the ladder, until they can't pug their way to higher keys (let's say around 14-15). I'm not interested in doing 8's for Gear, nor 10's for vault nor 12 for whatever, I just wanna try and see if I'm skilled enough to complete harder content. In it's current form, the game does not really allow me to do this (deplete system mostly, but community perception for SURE).
That’s a really good point. I’d say you’ve reached the point where you would be better off spending time trying to find a consistent group of people to push 13 and up keys than trying to get into high key groups as a non-meta healer.
@acadiianwow which really means I reached the system's limit for a player such as myself since I dont have that kind of time, I play on a pretty random schedule (life, kids, and stuff). I got around top 0.5% during the last Season I pushed (DF S3), this is when I couldn't climb by just pugging (queues became way too long for my limited playtime) and I feel I reached this threshold sooner this season. I know I should probably switch to tanking but I just wanna heal 😅
Roll back to DF M+ formula! It’s as simple as that! But Bliz does not allow us to enjoy ourselves….that’s the real problem.
I contend that the difficulty curve is too high for the playerbase we should cater to. We want a ton of people to be running +2-6 that’s what we want. Just tons of keys going and lots of people getting invited. Systems like depletion, keys changing, and especially any concept of a timer are contrary to the core way wow players encounter and overcome difficulty. The game should incentivize completion. Timing vs not timing should give the same crests. Drop gilded crests at +6 and myth gear at +7 from vault. Make +11 or something drop actual myth track from the dungeon loot. Now you have midcore players pushing themselves to make it up the difficulty curve and you don’t create these gearing divides. For the expert players give cooler rewards up the chain give a weapon enchant and like a glad mount level thing for top x% of your SPEC not just in general to demote god comping and meta chasing in the 3k io range.
I feel like TGP is the real end of the scale instead of MDI. Maybe I'm biased because I've competed in TGP but MDI is just... not what m+ is for 99% of people. The way you play, prep for, and execute MDI is completely different than a normal key, its basically a completely different game mode. TGP is what everyone is doing, just at the highest possible level.
Correction: you need to complete a 10 for mythic gear in vault. You do not need to time it.
The problem is Blizzard jams the wide spectrum of goals in one gameplay mode, and tune the gameplay towards so called e sports when it’s just a PvE activity. Michael Jordan does not hate low skill basketball players but they hate poor skilled wow players in Mythic pub. This is totally on Blizzard.
The problem is not having those walls but the height of the wall.
There be punishment for failure, sure but it shouldn't be binary 0 or 1.
There must be a margin for error which is big enough to give a chance to non-sweatlords and small enough to block the yolo-polo 123 W-gaming players.
The problem is the margin is so small that only sweatlords are going forward and the community is crying exactly because this margin being so tiny.
On top these when you wipe once you already getting punished cause you died then you have to run back why salting the would by adding death penalty on 7+?
When you fail to time a key you already failed 30-35mins that you are not getting back and on top of that your key is depleted?
Are they sadistic or are we masochistic?
It doesn't follow logic,you fail you get punished its fair but you fail you get deleted is crazy.
The whole money esport race world first and mdi tgp should be a secondary thing,the game shouldnt be designed around them otherwise they played shadowlands and most other people didnt.
Go on like this and you have to get even more creative with auction house mounts for quick cash grab.
can only say this in my case until they get rid of the timer you will never see me in a M+. I see no point in rushing to the ending and I not saying they barely give you enough time but A timer in general will make people rush though content. there are other better way to make difficulty than having to just go fast
The problem is a lot of people really wanna push keys but they cant or its very fucking hard right now because of how the system works. Think the depletion system, think the death penalty, think the weird scaling jump after 11. So they would have fun if it wasnt such a bad design.
My point in the video is that the wall you are talking about will always exist in an infinite scaling system. If they make the jump from 11 to 12 easier the same players you are talking about will just hit the wall at 13 or 14. You're just delaying the point on which they hit the wall.
My point is that people say they want to "push keys" but don't actually want to do what it takes to break through the walls they hit. If you have a 12 key, instead of putting it in the group finder and grabbing a bunch of randoms and slamming your head against it you should instead try to find friends wanting to push with you. Then you can prepare for the key, talk about kick rotations, talk about priority mobs and optimal routing. All that work that happens before the key and most players don't want to do that (including me) and thats ok. Its ok that there is a point in the key scaling that a player can no longer time, or at least isn't willing to put the effort in to time.
The depletion system helps avoid "progging" keys. If people already don't want to prepare for keys then do you really think they want to try the first pull of stonevault 30 times before getting it? This also brings up my point that if you don't like doing "farm keys" and only enjoy getting raider io score then you will likely never be truly happy in the game. Its like someone playing league that is only happy when they go up in rank. Eventually you will be placed where you are supposed to and should try to have fun in that elo .
The death penalty is encouraging precise play that, again, will come with preparation and skill expression. It rewards people who put in the time and effort to master the dungeon. Yea it sucks when you lose time to a death but it also sucks when a team in football gets a flag for passer interference but its just part of the game. You make a mistake and you get punished, thats what makes something rewarding when you overcome a difficult task.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinion!
@@acadiianwow 100% true, it's way better with a static group. You learn faster and have a much higher success rate after actually spending 2 hours in a +12. That's where you actually learn the dungeon in and out. Pugging is harmful to your gameplay because you never get that good prog and, most importantly, don't get feedback from 4 other players before, during, and after the key.
While it's true there will always be a wall at one point in an infinitely scaling system, the jump from 11 to 12 is more like a jump from 11 to 15. That's a huge wall most people just can't climb without tons of prog, and it feels bad to be stuck at the same level for weeks. With depletion, it means everytime you fail a +12 you have to pump up an 11 again and that's should crushing. You quickly get to a point where you easily 2-chest the 11s but can't time the 12s still and it feels really bad even in a static group. Having 3 charges on keys would alleviate this as you could at least restart a few times without it becoming like a tournament realm.
Keep up the good work!
thanks for watching!
Pretty sure you need 10s for mythic gear not 8s.
I don't think the progression you described is wrong but I think weekly rewards used to feel like the challenge of completing 7s now and it is a lot harder to get to that yolo lets carry some scrubs or joke around with the boys for some weekly chore keys.
Normally I'd play 2-3 tanks doing 4 (or more) max reward keys a week and maybe pushing a bit with friends on one of them. While this season I'm just using the 20 year buff to level class to 80 (for the yolos) and doing basically zero keys since I'm not enjoying the state of tanking compared to the last 2 expansion. It just feels bad having no interest in even logging in for more then 20-30 mins day.
Yea I misspoke in the video about the weekly vault loot but I guess I would ask why do you need mythic track loot if your goal is to play 2-3 tanks for fun each week? Hero track gear can be upgraded to 626 which is more than high enough to get all your portals. Also, if doing mythic plus is your only source of myth track loot (meaning you don't mythic raid) than again, why do you need myth track loot? The content you enjoy and want to do doesn't require it.
@@acadiianwow I don't know I guess I'm weird. If I'm playing a gear based game why wouldn't I want to hit gear cap or get as close as possible. No matter how much fun I find the content if I'm going to stop at hero gear which takes a weekend or two I'm going to get bored basically getting nothing for the next 5+ months.
I can generally get portals in the first couple of weeks so I'm often sitting in a lot of last seasons gear so I know gearing is fairly meaningless if you are not pushing cutting edge content but it still feels great finishing a characters gear and making farm / fun content feel like a joke over time do to your effects of becoming more powerful.
@@voodoo1069 thats not weird at all. My second most played game is Path of Exile which is exactly as you described, get gear to make thing easier, to farm more gear easier, to kill boss, etc. But in that game there are bosses that I will never kill and drop loot that I will never have. If I want to hit gear cap in that game I would have to either get better at the game and/or spend a significantly more amount of time to achieve that. Because I can't kill the hardest bosses doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the game, I just know that those bosses aren't for me.
All that being said I totally agree that tanking doesn't feel as good as it used to and doing the ol' "weekly 15 no leaver" keys are MUCH more difficult now than they were since a +10 this season is much harder than a 15 used to be. The point of my video was to try and explain that it's ok for a game to have content that you either can't or don't want to do.
@acadiianwow I got that and my first post was reply to how I agree with that and personally found the current tuning to be more annoying for the same or less reward conpared to the past so I've just stopped engaging with the content all together.
Tge biggest change is the mythic gatekeeping. We now have 1-6 mythic instead of 1-4 up grade in gear and 90 creat instead if 60 in DF. So 15 slots lets say you only do 10's. Lets assume you get a mythic upgrade every week in exactly the right spot. Technically, you would have to run 112 10's before you got the upgrades to max level which you know is never going to happen because you're never going to get the exact Mythic gear that you need in every slot every week RNG will not permit it. Thought you're talking about crafted gear needing 90 crests after the other 45. You need to upgrade assuming you did it on runecrests instead of gilded crests. They've increased the grind so dramatically that it becomes almost disheartening. Let me give you an example. Dragonflight season 3, My mistweaver monk went from a fresh 70 to 480 ilvl and at the time max level was 489. In 8 days of gameplay. Maybe that's too fast but the opposite what it would be now to do that is going on over a month
You make good points here and I agree that the change in the myth track gear felt unnecessary.
Do you feel that your season is complete after achieve your goals (getting AOTC for example) or after you hit gear cap? Because obviously some people can complete their season goals well before they ever get full maxed out gear. And if your goal is gear cap, how many weeks do you think should it take to get there?
I go back and forth on my thoughts on the question above. I do enjoy that even now my main can still get upgrades but I don’t like that if I want to play an alt it feels like it’ll take weeks before I can actually do any serious content with him.
All that being said, should I be mad that things take a long time? Is it giving more reason to play or just wasting my time? What do you think?
@acadiianwow soooo to be clear I don't play any other games. For me playing wow is like watching TV. I spend much more time playing wow than watching TV and I'm not going to stop either. I don't play the game as a sprint to the finish line, when I'm doing 10's with ease I usually just jump to another class. Aotc/mythic raiding is all about group content and my guildees. That being said I'm still frustrated with their decisions this tier, they short sighted the impact of delves that bleed into mythic plus with players that have heroic gear but no clue on M+ content and the aforementioned gatekeeping
Great vid, u got a nice voice ^^
Remove the +12 jump, remove 15s death timers, remove the cc change. Done.. M+ is instantly better.
No not really.
If those things are too much, just do the lower content. I think the sooner we accept that not all content is for us , the better. It frees us to enjoy the game.
@@mmdrahaman Too much lol. I've pushed for title every season. M+ has gotten worse every iteration since SL.
@@yanthir4720 Actually it does.
I'd Love To See WoW Get A Full On Remake With
An Optional Storymode
(Don't Get Mad At Me For This @Acadiin) For Example: ESO In ESO
The Players Has
The Option To Beat A Dungeon While In Queue
And They Can Opt Out
If They Want Or If The
Players Are In Middle Of Main Quest They Can
Pause It And Start Another Quest And
That's What WoW
Needs (I Subbed
And Pin And❤️ This Comment Please)