Beautiful in the UK John one of the hottest Easter’s on record spent 1 day tidying the workshop and making some tooling before the grand kids came over hope you had a good weekend 😄
That's going to be a really nice pizza cutter! Your camera work is always so nice to watch, you're really great at setting up a shot. I'm pretty sure the normalizing/warpage problem is a big part of why ribbon burners came into existence.
Bit of rain is good, been getting quite a bit here in Queensland Australia, It's Autumn here and we need some rain, some parts of QLD have had drought for around 7 yrs.
It may have already been mentioned in other comments, but normalizing is done at about 1650-1700 F which causes the grain to "blow up" to an enlarged size which will make the grain nice and homogeneous and "equal". Thermal cycling is done after normalizing in order to reduce the grain size after the growth occurred during normalizing. Three grain reducing cycles is the norm to make sure all of the grain has been refined in order for the steel to retain its strength and toughness and edge retention properties etc. It's often done in three reducing heats, such as from 1600 to 1500 to 1400 (or anywhere between), but it's been shown that three heats from ~1500 to a black heat (just below 900F, no need to cool down to room temp) will refine the grain just as well as three reducing heats. So first you normalize the gain's structure and size, and then you thermal cycle three times to refine the grain. Fwiw, there is also no need to cool to room temp in between temper cycles, in fact, cooling/quenching the blade in water between tempers can help to prevent the stabilizing of any retained Austenite (RA) which would prevent any RA from converting to martensite in further tempering cycles. If wont really make any noticeable difference, but it does save quite a bit of time between temper cycles and definitely won't hurt anything. That's just what I've picked up over the years of making knives. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to some pizza choppin' 🍕👍
That is probably the best description I have heard. Plus it confirms that you aren't normalizing three times as so many people say when discussing the process.
Hi John, great pizza cutter --- makes me wonder how tough those Colorado pizzas can be! On another note, the science guy in me wants to forge some 5160 pieces, something fairly small in cross section and quench after 0, 1, 2, and 3 normalizing cycles, and break them to compare the grain structure. I've done this both in a class and on my own to compare 0 cycles and 1 cycle, but not 2 and 3. The difference in grain quality when comparing no normalizing to 1 cycle was visible. --- I didn't photograph, should have photographed!
It would be interesting to see some controlled testing. I don't doubt it works, its just that I would like to know why and then how significant the difference
I am not sure on the wording, but the 3 heating cycles are also used to reduce grain size in the metal. Since there is some hysteresis in that, you would heat up the part to a little lower temperature each time. The exact temperatures would depend on the specific alloy of the steel.
I've seen alot of knife makers place the blade inside a piece of tubing that's in the Forge to insure even heating when they are normalizing. Just a helpful hint
I don't know about the triple normalizing, but just had to complete a bunch of modules at the local tech institute on heat treating. We delved into the iron-carbon chart to some extent as well. That, combined with a boatload of forums reading and UA-cam videos, led me to believe that quenching, annealing, and normalizing all had identical first steps: heat the metal to about 100F above the lower critical temperature, and then let it soak 1hr per inch if thickness. At that temperature, the steel is starting to change it's crystal structure. The rate of cooling affects the resultant grain structure: faster gives a finer grain structure (with the exception of quenching, which is so fast that it traps carbon and forms martensite) From the images I've seen (someone took identical pieces of steel and compared quenched, annealed, one, two, and three normalization cycles) the 3 cycles do have the finest grain structure. The applicability to this video, though, is that it didn't look like the normalizing was done at a temperature anywhere near the quenching.... in which case it's just stress relieving. Which, while helpful in avoiding warpage and cracking, does not refine the grain structure at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I'd like to make sure I have a solid understanding of this.
Great video as always John from what I’ve understood the normalizing cycles each one is supposed to be at a lower temperature, I think I seen it from Liam Hoffman sometime in the past
Black Bear Forge I liked it :). I avoid it for my own due to the copyright issues that stem from it.. but I do feel it helps with time laps, or long repetitive sequences.
Congrats John on another great video , the music, the double time and even the twiddling of the thumbs ,not a word , yet it spoke volumes . John the temp you took it to before the quench is that the same temp as nonmagnetic ?
Love the new music in the background I hope your not wait to eat that pizza your going to starve by the time it’s finished. Haha. Just kidding. Background music on off topic is also good ....thx ...Paul
It's a rocking motion pizza cutter, you put 1 end down and rock it across in a motion kinda like a rocking chair. A lot of commercial pizza places use one similar to it. I prefer the one with the rotating cutter wheel myself!
The couple times I neglected to triple normalise I got cracked blades. I don't know the science behind it either but i get better luck with the triple normalizing.
Coming along nicely John, i think you might have to do a heat treat on that pizza by time you get your handle on :-) nice to see the frowny foreman still watching with the thumbs down LoL Hi guys smiles and waves from New Zealand
As always, great video and project John. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. 1) Is normalizing the steel 3 times considered the same as thermocycling? 2) When you heat your quenching oil with the steel bar, do you just do that once to make the oil a little warmer or should the oil reach a certain temperature before quenching? Thanks John!
@@BlackBearForge The scenario I was imagining was getting tangled up in rotating machinery. Was always stressed in every safety video that I remember watching over 30 plus years of industrial maintenance.
I saw a video where a guy was making logs out of shredded paper for his fireplace to save some money, chopped into smaller chunks would these work in a forge provided with sufficient airflow?
Thats a tough one. Doing it for a video adds lots of time to the project. I also might take a different approach if I had to keep the price under control for a customer to afford. But this one will have about $600 worth of time ion it and I doubt I could sell it for $200. Not every project can be made for a profit, so i doubt there will be any more of these.
Yakety Sax by Boots Randolph for all of you who just call it Benny Hill music. I mean, I get it. If you call it that people know what you are talking about.
@@BlackBearForge no,i always love seeing him upload a video, now i have to wonder if he is going to ruin other videos with background music. i doubt people enjoyed the back ground music, they may have tolerated it but enjoyed it.
@@MichaelMantion I have so far received two negative comments regarding music since I started using it a few days ago. But I have received numerous comments from people that liked the music. Watch time and audience retention are up, meaning people aren't leaving the video during the less interesting portions. In a poll asking how people feel about the music only 10% have indicated they don't like it. I know I can'r make 100% of the viewers happy with every video, but it does seem like more are on favor of it than are against it. But based on your original statement you didn't like the video without the music anyway.
@@BlackBearForge I think that proves my point. I have unsubbed from 40 channels in the last month because they keep adding background music. Most of the time I just hit back the moment I hear background music or bad audio or someone saying "like, um, like". I'm not alone in this. Just think of how many people start watching your video, hear the background music, and leave. They don't write a comment, they likey don't even spend a second hitting dislike. When I watch on my phone or TV I never click dislike. I just stop watching. The fact that you saw 2 comments about not liking the back ground music is telling. Please keep in mind people think sharing things the dislike is rude and saying they like something is nice. Even if someone legitimately likes the music you choose and wanted to hear it, doesn't mean they would have been just as happy with out the music. I guess what I am saying is you are missing out on future views, subscribers and other interactions because people don't want to suffer through music they just don't want to hear. When you are in the car and a song comes on that you don't feel like listening to you change the station or skip to the next song. They do the same thing for your video. And maybe they are vested in the video when you add the music and just try to ignore it. They certainly aren't going to give you a like. I really like your editing, I like how clear your words are, I like the skill you share and the explanations you give. I have only been watching you for a short while. In the end people aren't watching your videos for what random music you felt sounded good when you edited the video. They came to watch you work and learn something. you have much to lose and nothing to gain by adding music. If you really think your content would be boring with out music, than just cut the that content out. I appreciate you sharing your view. In the end its your video and if it makes you happy adding random music do it. Just let me know if you decide not to add music in the future so I can start watching your videos again. I really wish UA-cam would give more audio channels so people could opt out of the music and just listen to people talk and do work. OH and yes I did not like this video. I like that you share the process so people can appreciate and learn. A lot of you tubers skip it. That said you really should just speed up the grinding parts, or voice over after the fact and add explanations of what you are doing, tips, tricks, warnings. In fact if I were going to edit this video I would just start it with you grinding, and have you voice over the most of the information in the video. But again make the videos you want to make. Also keep in mind I typically watch your videos at 3-4x speed. Perhaps the music is less annoying at 1x speeed than 3x. Take care, thank you for the videos that I had watched. I really liked a lot of them.
Reminds me of two guys in a canoe. Might be kool to make one in the shape of a Redbird canoe with some appropriate chisel decoration.
The tiny warp is perfect for cutting the pizza bigger to your advantage lol
Loving the addition of music in the videos!
Thanks
Gotta love the Benny Hill bit
My grandfather all ways placed his quench tank on magnetic north & south axis. He claimed that helped keep the grain alined.
Beautiful in the UK John one of the hottest Easter’s on record spent 1 day tidying the workshop and making some tooling before the grand kids came over hope you had a good weekend 😄
Love that small wheel and contact wheel attachment
I got that setup from Beaumont Metalwork's.
LOVE the Benny Hill music!!
That's going to be a really nice pizza cutter! Your camera work is always so nice to watch, you're really great at setting up a shot. I'm pretty sure the normalizing/warpage problem is a big part of why ribbon burners came into existence.
Like the apple tree handle.... Steve. Appleton, Wisconsin
Soft Tail, haha
I'm about an hour from appleton. Just curious if you know of any blacksmith groups in the area. I can't seam to find any local groups.
Maniac of the Woods I don’t know of any
Love the new editing flourishes. Keep up the great work!
Looking great John!
I have to say I really like the new video format and video flourishes!
Thank you, it was a big leap forward, so I am glad people seem to like it.
Bit of rain is good, been getting quite a bit here in Queensland Australia, It's Autumn here and we need some rain, some parts of QLD have had drought for around 7 yrs.
i love the old timey silent movie montage.
Great John! The music was a great touch! I really appreciate your creativity! Maybe add some of your banjo pickin sometime?
Always love your videos. Thanks for sharing!
Love this thing.
It may have already been mentioned in other comments, but normalizing is done at about 1650-1700 F which causes the grain to "blow up" to an enlarged size which will make the grain nice and homogeneous and "equal". Thermal cycling is done after normalizing in order to reduce the grain size after the growth occurred during normalizing. Three grain reducing cycles is the norm to make sure all of the grain has been refined in order for the steel to retain its strength and toughness and edge retention properties etc. It's often done in three reducing heats, such as from 1600 to 1500 to 1400 (or anywhere between), but it's been shown that three heats from ~1500 to a black heat (just below 900F, no need to cool down to room temp) will refine the grain just as well as three reducing heats. So first you normalize the gain's structure and size, and then you thermal cycle three times to refine the grain. Fwiw, there is also no need to cool to room temp in between temper cycles, in fact, cooling/quenching the blade in water between tempers can help to prevent the stabilizing of any retained Austenite (RA) which would prevent any RA from converting to martensite in further tempering cycles. If wont really make any noticeable difference, but it does save quite a bit of time between temper cycles and definitely won't hurt anything. That's just what I've picked up over the years of making knives. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to some pizza choppin' 🍕👍
That is probably the best description I have heard. Plus it confirms that you aren't normalizing three times as so many people say when discussing the process.
Love the music! That was a really nice touch during the non-talking bits.
John reaches for black iron... I scream a little in the back of my throat.
Hi John, great pizza cutter --- makes me wonder how tough those Colorado pizzas can be! On another note, the science guy in me wants to forge some 5160 pieces, something fairly small in cross section and quench after 0, 1, 2, and 3 normalizing cycles, and break them to compare the grain structure. I've done this both in a class and on my own to compare 0 cycles and 1 cycle, but not 2 and 3. The difference in grain quality when comparing no normalizing to 1 cycle was visible. --- I didn't photograph, should have photographed!
It would be interesting to see some controlled testing. I don't doubt it works, its just that I would like to know why and then how significant the difference
For food safe oil quenching try two parts sunflower oil to one part cod liver oil, Added advantage no oil fire.
Awesome informational educational video experience Y'alls
Great progress on the Pizza Cutter ! Your steps are right on !
P.S. GREAT background music !
Be Safe
Great work
Low clouds, humid, mid-30s here in NW Colo today. Neat project!
This is great! Thanks for your content! I'm subbing for sure.
fantastic :)
in 6:12 Looking at your watch when you don't have a watch. I have one too:)
I am not sure on the wording, but the 3 heating cycles are also used to reduce grain size in the metal. Since there is some hysteresis in that, you would heat up the part to a little lower temperature each time. The exact temperatures would depend on the specific alloy of the steel.
Great video as always John. I love the music you put in as well :).
Very cool
I've seen alot of knife makers place the blade inside a piece of tubing that's in the Forge to insure even heating when they are normalizing. Just a helpful hint
Onward my friend !
I don't know about the triple normalizing, but just had to complete a bunch of modules at the local tech institute on heat treating.
We delved into the iron-carbon chart to some extent as well. That, combined with a boatload of forums reading and UA-cam videos, led me to believe that quenching, annealing, and normalizing all had identical first steps: heat the metal to about 100F above the lower critical temperature, and then let it soak 1hr per inch if thickness.
At that temperature, the steel is starting to change it's crystal structure. The rate of cooling affects the resultant grain structure: faster gives a finer grain structure (with the exception of quenching, which is so fast that it traps carbon and forms martensite)
From the images I've seen (someone took identical pieces of steel and compared quenched, annealed, one, two, and three normalization cycles) the 3 cycles do have the finest grain structure.
The applicability to this video, though, is that it didn't look like the normalizing was done at a temperature anywhere near the quenching.... in which case it's just stress relieving. Which, while helpful in avoiding warpage and cracking, does not refine the grain structure at all.
Please correct me if I'm wrong; I'd like to make sure I have a solid understanding of this.
Really loving this new format, John!
What the normalizing does is it improves the grain structure the steel.
Great video as always John from what I’ve understood the normalizing cycles each one is supposed to be at a lower temperature, I think I seen it from Liam Hoffman sometime in the past
Like this project im hoping you show your handle process as well thanks for sharing takecare my friend.
The handle video should be up tomorrow.
Music.. that’s something new :)
Hopefully its well received. I know some people hate music. But it seems to help move the video along.
Black Bear Forge I liked it :). I avoid it for my own due to the copyright issues that stem from it.. but I do feel it helps with time laps, or long repetitive sequences.
I finally bit the bullet and signed up with Epidemic Sound. Its $15 per month with no copyright hassles.
www.epidemicsound.com/
May I say I loved the grinding music
3 declining heats to black, to refine the grain.
Still looking good Mr. John. Apple handles...well lets see what that looks like...ie sweet anticipation lol
Blessings 2 u sirSir,
Crawford out 🧙♂️
I will be waiting on the next video. Love me some pizza!
Hopefully we can eat pizza next time, getting hungry 😊
This to me wanted to be a katana looking fantasy sword thing pizza cutter
Need some humidity the air is South Carolina is basically water
You could make your own background music with your banjo
Congrats John on another great video , the music, the double time and even the twiddling of the thumbs ,not a word , yet it spoke volumes . John the temp you took it to before the quench is that the same temp as nonmagnetic ?
handy think
Normalization refines the grain structure inside the steel, and allows the carbon to saturate better. ( I believe)
Love the new music in the background I hope your not wait to eat that pizza your going to starve by the time it’s finished. Haha. Just kidding. Background music on off topic is also good ....thx ...Paul
Through the magic of video I was able to eat the pizza before posting the first portion of the video. 😜
So you don't build knife , That's no tooth pick.
Thanks and good music....My neighbors use to play banjo out in his fount yard.
I am curious to see that pizza cutter, I have never seen one like that.
It's a rocking motion pizza cutter, you put 1 end down and rock it across in a motion kinda like a rocking chair. A lot of commercial pizza places use one similar to it. I prefer the one with the rotating cutter wheel myself!
The couple times I neglected to triple normalise I got cracked blades. I don't know the science behind it either but i get better luck with the triple normalizing.
Coming along nicely John, i think you might have to do a heat treat on that pizza by time you get your handle on :-) nice to see the frowny foreman still watching with the thumbs down LoL Hi guys smiles and waves from New Zealand
"frowny foreman" 😂😂👍 I love that term
As always, great video and project John. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. 1) Is normalizing the steel 3 times considered the same as thermocycling? 2) When you heat your quenching oil with the steel bar, do you just do that once to make the oil a little warmer or should the oil reach a certain temperature before quenching? Thanks John!
Hate to be 'that guy', but got nervous seeing you wearing gloves using the belt sander. 🐾🔥⚒
More people tend to complain when I don't But in any case these are cut and abrasion resistant gloves intended for use while grinding.
@@BlackBearForge
The scenario I was imagining was getting tangled up in rotating machinery. Was always stressed in every safety video that I remember watching over 30 plus years of industrial maintenance.
Hey John I've been noticing my likes disappearing on videos yours included
I think its just a weird UA-cam thing. The numbers don't seem to change, it's just the highlighted icon that seems to change
Is this kinda big?
Mr John. I was wondering where you bought your heat treating oven.
Thank you
I think I bought it from Midwest Knife Makers supply
@@BlackBearForge thank you sir
I know it’s heresy, but do you actually need to harden that? If it’s just cutting food, what kind of edge retention do you really need?
Probably not. Cutting a pizza isn't the same as slicing bread. I bet most pizza Cutters are pretty dull.
I’ve seen some other blacksmiths pre-heat the oil but I don’t know why they did that....any ideas? Thx for another great vid!
Bob Macrae If it’s warm it’s less viscous and actually cools the steel faster than cool, viscous oil.
The warmer oil is thinner and moves around the steel better resulting in a better quench.
Hello, you said you only wanted to quench the edge until it cooled off some, what benefits do you get from quenching that way and not full submersion?
Only the edge becomes hard, leaving the remainder of the tool tougher. This reduces any risk of cracking where it transitions to the tangs.
@@BlackBearForge oh ok, makes sense considering the nature of the tool, thank you!
I saw a video where a guy was making logs out of shredded paper for his fireplace to save some money, chopped into smaller chunks would these work in a forge provided with sufficient airflow?
It seems like they would leave a lot of ash. But if you have the time to try it.
@@BlackBearForge Thanks for your time! Hopefully the pizza was good. Keep up the good work!
Is this pizza cutter for Game of Thrones? Cause I can see some fairly relevant uses for this in the battles to come... XD
I thought you couldn't differentially harden 5160?
Or is it just that it is more susceptible to problems when differentially hardened?
I have never heard that you couldn’t.
@@BlackBearForge
Cool.
Thank you.
How much would you charge for something like this considering it takes 2 or 3 days?
Thats a tough one. Doing it for a video adds lots of time to the project. I also might take a different approach if I had to keep the price under control for a customer to afford. But this one will have about $600 worth of time ion it and I doubt I could sell it for $200. Not every project can be made for a profit, so i doubt there will be any more of these.
Yakety Sax by Boots Randolph for all of you who just call it Benny Hill music. I mean, I get it. If you call it that people know what you are talking about.
True, except this isn't Yakety Sax either. But it was chosen because it was similar
@@BlackBearForge Right. Definitely different.
Better tl
Why is your pizza cutter looking more like a Klingon Bat'leth ?
Is there a way to text privately?
You may email to switz@mindspring.com
Could this project be successful with mi,l,d steel?
music made a bad video worse.
Well you can't please everybody. But at least you get to feel better about yourself for getting your frustrations out.
@@BlackBearForge no,i always love seeing him upload a video, now i have to wonder if he is going to ruin other videos with background music. i doubt people enjoyed the back ground music, they may have tolerated it but enjoyed it.
@@MichaelMantion I have so far received two negative comments regarding music since I started using it a few days ago. But I have received numerous comments from people that liked the music. Watch time and audience retention are up, meaning people aren't leaving the video during the less interesting portions. In a poll asking how people feel about the music only 10% have indicated they don't like it. I know I can'r make 100% of the viewers happy with every video, but it does seem like more are on favor of it than are against it. But based on your original statement you didn't like the video without the music anyway.
@@BlackBearForge I think that proves my point. I have unsubbed from 40 channels in the last month because they keep adding background music. Most of the time I just hit back the moment I hear background music or bad audio or someone saying "like, um, like". I'm not alone in this. Just think of how many people start watching your video, hear the background music, and leave. They don't write a comment, they likey don't even spend a second hitting dislike. When I watch on my phone or TV I never click dislike. I just stop watching. The fact that you saw 2 comments about not liking the back ground music is telling. Please keep in mind people think sharing things the dislike is rude and saying they like something is nice. Even if someone legitimately likes the music you choose and wanted to hear it, doesn't mean they would have been just as happy with out the music.
I guess what I am saying is you are missing out on future views, subscribers and other interactions because people don't want to suffer through music they just don't want to hear. When you are in the car and a song comes on that you don't feel like listening to you change the station or skip to the next song. They do the same thing for your video. And maybe they are vested in the video when you add the music and just try to ignore it. They certainly aren't going to give you a like.
I really like your editing, I like how clear your words are, I like the skill you share and the explanations you give. I have only been watching you for a short while. In the end people aren't watching your videos for what random music you felt sounded good when you edited the video. They came to watch you work and learn something. you have much to lose and nothing to gain by adding music. If you really think your content would be boring with out music, than just cut the that content out. I appreciate you sharing your view. In the end its your video and if it makes you happy adding random music do it. Just let me know if you decide not to add music in the future so I can start watching your videos again. I really wish UA-cam would give more audio channels so people could opt out of the music and just listen to people talk and do work.
OH and yes I did not like this video. I like that you share the process so people can appreciate and learn. A lot of you tubers skip it. That said you really should just speed up the grinding parts, or voice over after the fact and add explanations of what you are doing, tips, tricks, warnings. In fact if I were going to edit this video I would just start it with you grinding, and have you voice over the most of the information in the video. But again make the videos you want to make.
Also keep in mind I typically watch your videos at 3-4x speed. Perhaps the music is less annoying at 1x speeed than 3x. Take care, thank you for the videos that I had watched. I really liked a lot of them.